What are your opinions on ToB?

[Psyren]

I just don't get where you draw the line? A man who can jump 40-60' is believable, but a man who can throw his sword down a hallway and scythe down 20 mooks isn't? This is where I'm having a disconnect. It seems to me that you don't want a game where people can do extraordinary things, but you want to play in a game where people are able to do extraordinary things. Either D&D is not the right system for you (thus negating your stance on ToB because it is a D&D book), or you are arbitrarily picking and choosing what does and doesn't fit into your paradigm based on...I dunno what.

So again, I ask you, how do you draw the line? Is it a gut thing? Or do you have a ruberic? This is the only question I have.

You. My babies. Have them.

[Zodiac]

@Jayabalard: Look, I literally went down every single maneuver, and while some were definitely eastern in taste (setting sun and shadow hand) the majority could easily go either way. Notice that the swordsage, the monk replacement, the one that is explicitly magical, is the only one to use desert wind, setting sun and shadow hand. And don't complain about martial study when you can get things like evasion that flat out violate the laws of physics with no real explanation while maneuvers use some pseudomagical ki source.

And stop going on about anime v. wuxia, just because people know what you mean doesn't you should do so when you know better. Its like if somebody said thrillers instead of books, and even though everyone would get what was meant, it sounds dumb and lazy. Shush, I know that's a poor example, but it gets the point across.

I cannot grasp at all your sense of verisimilitude, of course it's not "realistic" in a fantasy game, most things aren't in fantasy, there are things like whirlwind attack, grappling colossal creatures, jumping 500 feet in the air, and surviving the fall, but god forbid that melee can use stances to evade damage, protect allies, and do what melee can already do, but better. You don't like ki, fine don't use Swordsage, but you show me why specifically the Warblade and the Crusader are less reasonable than the Fighter and the Paladin. Seriously, point out specific maneuvers they can use that are badwrong and why. And if its the vancian and refresh mechanics you don't like, then how do you justify rage x rounds, or the need for bards to sleep to regain magic music (magic music btw is much more common in eastern tradition than western tradition).

Edit: Shadow Hand Swordsage'd like a million times, basically what Keld said.

[Jayabalard]

Circular logic is circular...of course I don't know any level 20 humans.Then obviously using the real world limit on jumping is a bad one eh? You have to use the limits of what D&D physics tells you, even though they give, at best, a non-chalant nod at real world physics.


So again, I ask you, how do you draw the line? Is it a gut thing? Or do you have a ruberic? This is the only question I have./shrug
I've pretty much stayed out of the debate about whether ToB is believable, other than to talk about why I think some people have problems with it in a very general sense. The text you quoted is strictly about the reasonableness of the examples being used in the way they were being used, and I don't think it says anything about verisimilitude.


I cannot grasp at all your sense of verisimilitude, of course it's not "realistic" in a fantasy game, most things aren't in fantasy, there are things like whirlwind attack, grappling colossal creatures, jumping 500 feet in the air, and surviving the fall, but god forbid that melee can use stances to evade damage, protect allies, and do what melee can already do, but better. You don't like ki, fine don't use Swordsage, but you show me why specifically the Warblade and the Crusader are less reasonable than the Fighter and the Paladin. Seriously, point out specific maneuvers they can use that are badwrong and why. And if its the vancian and refresh mechanics you don't like, then how do you justify rage x rounds, or the need for bards to sleep to regain magic music (magic music btw is much more common in eastern tradition than western tradition).This kind of confuses me. Did I actually say any of that?

[Boci]

Then obviously using the real world limit on jumping is a bad one eh? You have to use the limits of what D&D physics tells you, even though they give, at best, a non-chalant nod at real world physics.

But then how can you say a warbalde doesn't fit with a mundane heroes accomplishments? They fit with D&D physics.

[Keld Denar]

I'm just sayin, you seem to have issues with one, yet not with the other. Both are rediculous. Why is one radio, and the other magazines? (to steal someone else's terminology)

ToB isn't any more outlandish than the rest of D&D, even among the "muggles" who don't have magical prowass. It is just as outlandish, if not MORE outlandish in some cases. I'm a very discrete person. Either something is right (and thus everything like it is right), or something is wrong (and thus everything like it is wrong). Except there is this dichotomy you present, in which case two things that, while outwardly looking identical, are mechanically different or come from different books, and because of that one is right and one is wrong.

I mean, Robilar's Gambit is described as "an aggressive stance that sacrifices defense for offense". Punishing Stance is described as "an aggressive stance that sacrifices defense for offense". RG is ok, because its a feat, an established mechanic that goes all the way back to the PHB, and PS is a stance, a new mechanic introduced in a new book. Similar, yet one is good and one is bad. It just doesn't compute for me.

[Jayabalard]

But then how can you say a warbalde doesn't fit with a mundane heroes accomplishments?Did I?

I mean, other than their lack of hair they can fit just fine.


I'm just sayin, you seem to have issues with one, yet not with the other.I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.


Why is one radio, and the other magazines? (to steal someone else's terminology)One has sound and no picture, the other has pictures and text but no sound.

[Boci]

Did I?

That how your argument has come off as to me, yes. I know your don't actually believe the argument and are instead arguing on behalf of the silent posters who don't like ToB but where too scared to enter this thread, but still.

If that isn't your point, then what exactly is it?


I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.

You have repeatedly stated a warblade doesn't fit. Keld Denar pointed out that there are abilities similar to theirs in other books.

[Starbuck_II]

Whoa, what happened to chocolate and strawberry? Why are we talking radio, internet, and magazines?
This is madness!

But really, Monks do funky stuff (but not maneiver kind) but Core designers help back as they wanted every melee class to be balanced (well they tried, even if they failed).
Imagine if Monks were the only class with maneuvers back when 3.5 came out. They might actually have been good: how scary would that be.



I mean, Robilar's Gambit is described as "an aggressive stance that sacrifices defense for offense". Punishing Stance is described as "an aggressive stance that sacrifices defense for offense". RG is ok, because its a feat, an established mechanic that goes all the way back to the PHB, and PS is a stance, a new mechanic introduced in a new book. Similar, yet one is good and one is bad. It just doesn't compute for me.

Robilar's Gambit is more complicated. Maybe beeing more hard to understand = better.

[Zodiac]

This kind of confuses me. Did I actually say any of that?

To be fair, I wasn't quite clear with what I meant, Keld said essentially what I meant. My other question is what makes ToB more "anime" than everything else. Iron Heart, Stone Mountain, Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, White Raven, Setting Sun and Tiger Claw all do things that either improve on abilities that already exist or add abilities such as throws and the ability to guard others that frankly should have been implemented in the first place. What makes these schools "anime"? Seriously, I don't know, when I picked up the book and read through it, even though I like anime, I never thought "oh this is so "anime"". I can sort of understand Desert Wind being called that, even though it's pretty generic to attack with flames. but I literally don't understand why the rest of the book is called that.

But I'm getting away from the quote above, you did in fact imply that there was something outlandish about ToB because of its "animeness". When the question what's wrong with ToB is asked, and the answer it's too anime, as though that is a complete genre change from "normal" D&D, I frankly wonder what's so different about ToB that alienates it from the rest of D&D. I want specific reasons why this is the case beyond "lol anime, so unrealistic" which is the usual response. Essentially like Keld asked, where is the line the separates ToB from the rest of D&D?

[Jayabalard]

That how your argument has come off as to me, yes. I know your don't actually believe the argument and are instead arguing on behalf of the silent posters who don't like ToB but where too scared to enter this thread, but still.My arguments have been primarily about the relevance of some specific examples (I thought they were bad choices, and confirmed a better one once someone picked it), and some general discussion on eastern vs western fantasy, focusing on the fact that western fantasy generally has people doing superhuman things using an explicit divine (this seems to be the most common), magical or super science power source rather than the power of awesome (ie "just that damn good"), with some speculation that the latter is much more common in "anime" (at least, what the people who say "tob is to anime" mean by "anime"), and that may be related to the problems people have with ToB in general, since on first inspection ToB seems much more Roronoa Zoro than Errol Flynn.

I've also made an argument to the effect that getting caught up on semantic arguments ("no that's not what anime means" or "no that's not what wuxia means" ) is kind of pointless, since it's not hard to derive what problems someone is having with some fairly simple discussion, with an implied "you're making the situation worse by focusing on their word use instead of what they mean"

Those are arguments that I believe in; I'm not making them on behalf of anyone. Hopefully that helps clear things up?


You have repeatedly stated a warblade doesn't fit. Keld Denar pointed out that there are abilities similar to theirs in other books.Again: have I? I don't recall saying so.

[Boci]

My arguments have been primarily about the relevance of some specific examples (I thought they were bad choices, and confirmed a better one once someone picked it), and some general discussion on eastern vs western fantasy, focusing on the fact that western fantasy generally has people doing superhuman things using an explicit divine (this seems to be the most common), magical or super science power source rather than the power of awesome (ie "just that damn good"), with some speculation that the latter is much more common in "anime" (at least, what the people who say "tob is to anime" mean by "anime"), and that may be related to the problems people have with ToB in general, since on first inspection ToB seems much more Roronoa Zoro than Errol Flynn.

But the swordsage replaces the monk, which already had an eastern flavour.


I've also made an argument to the effect that getting caught up on semantic arguments ("no that's not what anime means" or "no that's not what wuxia means" ) is kind of pointless, since it's not hard to derive what problems someone is having with some fairly simple discussion, with an implied "you're making the situation worse by focusing on their word use instead of what they mean"

You can hardly fault fans not wanting anime to be used as critism. If it wasns't too late to change it amougst anyone who uses it I would argue against the use of "D&D player" as slang for "socially inept looser who lives in their parents' basement".


Again: have I? I don't recall saying so.

If not then I don't see the point of your argument. The warblade replaces the fighter. Therefor there is no need for the supernatural or divine origins in their ability and it fits with the western concept of a warrior.

[Jayabalard]

But the swordsage replaces the monk, which already had an eastern flavour.Indeed... I know a lot of people who have banned it over the years specifically for that reason (ie, it doesn't fit)

though... for some reason the west is a lot more comfortable with monks doing this sort of thing (a la Kung Fu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_%28TV_series%29))... my guess is that monk implies some sort of divine connection, and that they get away with breaking the rules for that reason.


You can hardly fault fans not wanting anime to be used as critism. If it wasns't too late to change it amougst anyone who uses it I would argue against the use of "D&D player" as slang for "socially inept looser who lives in their parents' basement".Meh, neither of those bother me (though, being from Florida, means that everyone knows I don't live in my parent's basement, since I'm an air breather, so maybe I have a bonus there).


If not then I don't see the point of your argument. The warblade replaces the fighter. Therefor there is no need for the supernatural or divine origins in their ability and it fits with the western concept of a warrior.I'm really confused... what argument are you talking about?

The only thing that's even vaguely related was my criticism of using Xena and Captain America as examples of normal people who do a particular maneuver, since they have a divine (daughter of Ares), and magic (super-science in fact, super soldier serum) background respectively. They aren't representative, since there's no way to discern whether their ability is normal, or from their magic background.

[Zeofar]

When I first saw it, I loved it. When I read it, I loved it and wanted to make a Swordsage ASAP. When I came here and saw all the sycophantic praise for it and the all-encompassing "ToB fixes everything," "Just make a [ToB class]," and "Martial Adept [class] Conversion" blather I became absolutely disgusted with it and hardly wished to ever look inside the cover again. This, so far, chronicles the whole of my experience of it.

[dsmiles]

The only thing that's even vaguely related was my criticism of using Xena and Captain America as examples of normal people who do a particular maneuver, since they have a divine (daughter of Ares), and magic (super-science in fact, super soldier serum) background respectively. They aren't representative, since there's no way to discern whether their ability is normal, or from their magic background.


At that point we were talking about bouncing weapons off of one person to about 50 bazillion other people (a la bloodstorm blade, IIRC). Cap's shield would be considered a magic item (vibranium alloy, IIRC), but his own knowledge of vectors, velocity, and F=MA would account for his super ability to bounce it off of stuff into other stuff (and back again). The super-soldier serum just gives him enough strength to pull it off, like a belt of giant strength.

[Jayabalard]

When I first saw it, I loved it. When I read it, I loved it and wanted to make a Swordsage ASAP. When I came here and saw all the sycophantic praise for it and the all-encompassing "ToB fixes everything," "Just make a [ToB class]," and "Martial Adept [class] Conversion" blather I became absolutely disgusted with it and hardly wished to ever look inside the cover again. This, so far, chronicles the whole of my experience of it.I'm not entirely surprised by this. Pretty much every time you see a thread about D monks you'll see a post to telling them that they should be making a swordsage instead... and some of them are just short of "Your doing it wrong, swordsage FTW"

[Boci]

When I first saw it, I loved it. When I read it, I loved it and wanted to make a Swordsage ASAP. When I came here and saw all the sycophantic praise for it and the all-encompassing "ToB fixes everything," "Just make a [ToB class]," and "Martial Adept [class] Conversion" blather I became absolutely disgusted with it and hardly wished to ever look inside the cover again. This, so far, chronicles the whole of my experience of it.

Why would what someone says make you hate the book? I get that ToB fans can be a bit fanatical, hell I am if I'm in the right wrong mood I am as well, but the fact is there are loads of thing with fanatical fan bases from games to food. I get hating them, but why the book?


I'm not entirely surprised by this. Pretty much every time you see a thread about D monks you'll see a post to telling them that they should be making a swordsage instead... and some of them are just short of "Your doing it wrong, swordsage FTW"

So? Whenever someone mentions banning all core classes don't you generally get people saying "your doing it wrong"? I've never seen omeone renounce core because of that.

[Jayabalard]

At that point we were talking about bouncing weapons off of one person to about 50 bazillion other people (a la bloodstorm blade, IIRC). Cap's shield would be considered a magic item (vibranium alloy, IIRC), but his own knowledge of vectors, velocity, and F=MA would account for his super ability to bounce it off of stuff into other stuff (and back again). The super-soldier serum just gives him enough strength to pull it off, like a belt of giant strength.
Vibranium sounds right... it's a form of unobtainium if I recall correctly (meaning, they can't get more of it). Now... the warblade can do this without the magic shield, or magic potion... and that makes the Cap seem like a bad example to me.


So? Whenever someone mentions banning all core classes don't you generally get people saying "your doing it wrong"? I've never seen omeone renounce core because of that.I don't recall any thread like that occurring where people got especially uppity about someone cutting all of the core classes. But I do remember seeing lots of the "swordsage FTW" sorts of threads. The level of upleasantness in some of those threads were pretty high, that certainly has a tendency to someone off of not only the person posting, but whatever thing they were pushing at the time (ie: ToB and swordsage in particular).

besides, your scenario here isn't analogous...

his scenario: He likes A, comes to forum, people are quite strongly pushing A, he gets turned off of A
your scenario: Person likes B, comes to forum, someone suggests B, someone else pushes Not B, person gets turned off of B.

[dsmiles]

Vibranium sounds right... it's a form of unobtainium if I recall correctly. Now the warblade can do this without the magic shield, or magic potion... and that makes the Cap seem like a bad example to me.

You're probably right, I was really just contesting that Xena was more well known than Cap for pulling that stuff. The only one more well known than Cap for pulling amazing super-powered antics is him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGykVbfgUE).

[Boci]

The level of upleasantness in some of those threads were pretty high, that certainly has a tendency to someone off of not only the person posting, but whatever thing they were pushing at the time (ie: ToB and swordsage in particular).

But why would that make you hate the book? People can act irrationally and come off as jerks. Some of those people like ToB. How does that lead to not likeing ToB?


besides, your scenario here isn't analogous...

his scenario: He likes A, comes to forum, people are quite strongly pushing A, he gets turned off of A
your scenario: Person likes B, comes to forum, someone suggests B, someone else pushes Not B, person gets turned off of B.


I was talking about threads made on the subject of banning all core classes.

[Zeofar]

Why would what someone says make you hate the book? I get that ToB fans can be a bit fanatical, hell I am if I'm in the right wrong mood I am as well, but the fact is there are loads of thing with fanatical fan bases from games to food. I get hating them, but why the book?

See, the thing is, I don't hate the people (At least, not solely on the fact that they beleive that ToB is the "melee fix"). It's simply that my perception of the book has been changed by the nigh-unending references to it, and it just seems repugnant now. I can't help but feel weighed down by the concept of it being a "replacement" (especially the recruitment threads... Oh gosh, the recruitment threads...) and feel compelled to just play whatever other class fits the flavor that I want; thinking about any of the classes just reminds me of all of the stuff constantly said for and against it. My attention has been drawn, so far irrevocably, away from the maneuvers and the abilities and the flavor to what people want it to be. I can't stand that feeling, regardless of how irrational or illogical it is.

[Jayabalard]

You're probably right, I was really just contesting that Xena was more well known than Cap for pulling that stuff.Oh... Well, I have to agree with that. He's been around for longer if nothing else, and certainly more generations were exposed to him than Xena.

But why would that make you hate the book? People can act irrationally and come off as jerks. Some of those people like ToB. How does that lead to not likeing ToB?Well, the generalized scenrio works something like:
Person A pushes Thing X in an unpleasant way; maybe they're just overzealous, maybe they're nasty, maybe something else. Stop liking both Person A and since they're such a terrible person, stop liking everything they like (which includes Thing X).

It's not an uncommon way for people to react.

[Keld Denar]

Man, I hope I never meet anyone who is both a jerk and who likes chocolate.

That would be unfortunate...I like chocolate.

[dsmiles]

Well, the generalized scenrio works something like:
Person A pushes Thing X in an unpleasant way. Stop liking both Person A and since they're such a terrible person, stop liking everything they like (which includes Thing X).


And this is where I was a few short weeks ago. Then I looked a little deeper into the book, and decided to ignore most of the wuxia (or anime, if you like) stuff, and only use the stuff that fit our campaign world.

But to counter this, I still like monks, so... :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: @KD: Eat chocolate! Vanilla is only a tier 4 flavor, where chocolate is tier 1. Obviously chocolate is superior. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

See, the thing is, I don't hate the people (At least, not solely on the fact that they beleive that ToB is the "melee fix"). It's simply that my perception of the book has been changed by the nigh-unending references to it, and it just seems repugnant now. I can't help but feel weighed down by the concept of it being a "replacement" (especially the recruitment threads... Oh gosh, the recruitment threads...) and feel compelled to just play whatever other class fits the flavor that I want; thinking about any of the classes just reminds me of all of the stuff constantly said for and against it. My attention has been drawn, so far irrevocably, away from the maneuvers and the abilities and the flavor to what people want it to be. I can't stand that feeling, regardless of how irrational or illogical it is.

This is a common (and more easily understood) phenomenon: Hype Aversion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HypeAversion).

I can certainly understand not liking ToB on these grounds. I don't agree of course, but I can understand.

[Zeofar]

You know, it doesn't have so much to do with anyone that likes it being jerks, but just the overwhelming pervasiveness of it. It isn't wrong to convert the ranger into a martial adept class, but after a while, I'm just sick of it.

[Boci]

Well, the generalized scenrio works something like:
Person A pushes Thing X in an unpleasant way; maybe they're just overzealous, maybe they're nasty, maybe something else. Stop liking both Person A and since they're such a terrible person, stop liking everything they like (which includes Thing X).

It's not an uncommon way for people to react.

Well I guess there are advantages to feeling contempt for the vast majority of the human race: you don't let their fanatasism drive you away from what you like for one.

[Keld Denar]

You know, it doesn't have so much to do with anyone that likes it being jerks, but just the overwhelming pervasiveness of it. It isn't wrong to convert the ranger into a martial adept class, but after a while, I'm just sick of it.

I don't like a lot of a lot of things on the internet...so I avoid them or ignore them. I'm not saying you are doing it wrong, but thicken up a little. What you get from the web is garunteed to have a minimum value of what you paid for it...nothing. The potential for something greater than that, however, is worth slogging through a couple of fanboys here and there.

A lot of people see ToB as a definite fix to a lot of things, and thus try to mold the rest of 3.5 to be more like it. Its like putting bacon on things. I have yet to find something to eat that couldn't be made more delicious with bacon. Sure, I don't always feel like bacon, so I don't always eat it, but its still durned tasty!

[thompur]

I don't like a lot of a lot of things on the internet...so I avoid them or ignore them. I'm not saying you are doing it wrong, but thicken up a little. What you get from the web is garunteed to have a minimum value of what you paid for it...nothing. The potential for something greater than that, however, is worth slogging through a couple of fanboys here and there.

A lot of people see ToB as a definite fix to a lot of things, and thus try to mold the rest of 3.5 to be more like it. Its like putting bacon on things. I have yet to find something to eat that couldn't be made more delicious with bacon. Sure, I don't always feel like bacon, so I don't always eat it, but its still durned tasty!

Have you tried bacon on bacon, wrapped in bacon, and fried in bacon? It's almost as good as bacon with bacon bits, marinated in bacon, with a bacon sauce and spam!

[Gensh]

A lot of people see ToB as a definite fix to a lot of things, and thus try to mold the rest of 3.5 to be more like it. Its like putting bacon on things. I have yet to find something to eat that couldn't be made more delicious with bacon. Sure, I don't always feel like bacon, so I don't always eat it, but its still durned tasty!

I'd say it's closer to putting chocolate on something salty. A lot of people just won't like it, in many cases just because you're getting your sweets and your salts mixed up, and that's just wrong. In Zeofar's case, he was forcefed chocolate until he vomited and developed a food allergy.

[Susano-wo]

You know, it doesn't have so much to do with anyone that likes it being jerks, but just the overwhelming pervasiveness of it. It isn't wrong to convert the ranger into a martial adept class, but after a while, I'm just sick of it.

totally undestandible. I have this reaction somteims too, though I'm oftenimune once I've experienced the thing and like it.
(like I still love ToB, but if some new movie or series was coming out the seemed like it was getting stupidly overhyped, or a game being described as an [insert popular game here] killer, it makes me not want to touch it)
THis is also why I am adverse to the Chuck Norris meme>.>
Oh, and Oakenshield? Now we're off topic :smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

[/B]

Have you tried bacon on bacon, wrapped in bacon, and fried in bacon? It's almost as good as bacon with bacon bits, marinated in bacon, with a bacon sauce and spam!
I strongly suspect you're not even aware that what you described actually exists (http://www.bbqaddicts.com/blog/recipes/bacon-explosion/).

And is awesome.

[Psyren]

I strongly suspect you're not even aware that what you described actually exists (http://www.bbqaddicts.com/blog/recipes/bacon-explosion/).

And is awesome.

Christ.
You might as well just shoot yourself in the chest and save time!

[Starbuck_II]

Bacon Explosion needs more chocolate. And blue. You know, all the best natural flavors.

[Thurbane]

Welcome to the ToB merri-go-round...nice to see all the usual suspects here on both sides of the debate. Nice to see all the same debate points, too. It brings a ceratin fond familiarity. :smallsmile:

[Susano-wo]

Welcome to the ToB merri-go-round...nice to see all the usual suspects here on both sides of the debate. Nice to see all the same debate points, too. It brings a ceratin fond familiarity. :smallsmile:

including the ever beloved "gee we have this debate all the time using the same arguments, etc" poster :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[Zeofar]

This is a common (and more easily understood) phenomenon: Hype Aversion (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HypeAversion).


As much as it sounds like hype aversion, which I've experienced, it's something else. Truth be told, it is many things: hype aversion, crunch vs. fluff, "Asia in mah d&d?", tiers, "X does the same things as Y aaaaand...", "do this instead", etc.. To me, it has come to epitomize and represent the worst parts of D&D arguments, and it really is nothing like anything I've experienced before. It isn't so much what is said about it, but the fact that it is said at all and that ToB so easily drawn into these things.


I don't like a lot of a lot of things on the internet...so I avoid them or ignore them.

I do. The only reason I stumbled in here was simply to post this but ended up seeing a response to my question. I've avoided reading anything other than the OP and direct responses to my own posts. I still just feel... bleh about it. I could care less what people say about ToB at this point, but I'd rather just not venture into it. I don't doubt that it is a good system or that I would probably enjoy it, but I'm not sure I'll ever really feel in the mood for the initial agitation. Besides, I'm a big boy. I can handle these kinds of things; I wouldn't be posting at all except for the fact that I felt my reaction was unusually, exceptionally, and uncontrollably negative for no apparent reason.

[Esser-Z]

including the ever beloved "gee we have this debate all the time using the same arguments, etc" poster :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

And the poster pointing out that poster. And the poster pointing out the poster pointing out that poster. And the poster pointing out the poster pointing out the poster pointing out that poster.

Oh, and you know what Western stuff the ToB works well for? Norse Sagas!

[Thurbane]

FWIW, Boci and some others seem to think people saying "ToB is too anime" as some kind of insult or put down (for anime). I think (in general) it's being used as a flavour preference, not as a negative connotation.

For instance, I don't use psionics in my D&D games because I personally think it's "too sci-fi". Now, I LOVE sci-fi: one of my very favorite genres of film and literature. But, I personally don't like sci-fi flavour in my D&D games.

...my point is that I don't think "too anime" is neccesarily meant as a put-down, either for ToB or for anime.

[Psyren]

FWIW, Boci and some others seem to think people saying "ToB is too anime" as some kind of insult or put down (for anime). I think (in general) it's being used as a flavour preference, not as a negative connotation.

For instance, I don't use psionics in my D&D games because I personally think it's "too sci-fi". Now, I LOVE sci-fi: one of my very favorite genres of film and literature. But, I personally don't like sci-fi flavour in my D&D games.

...my point is that I don't think "too anime" is neccesarily meant as a put-down, either for ToB or for anime.

It is a put-down for anime; it implies that all anime works, regardless of genre, share the same flavor and themes. It's a sweeping generalization that betrays either an unwillingness or indifference to any nuance the medium possesses.

"Too sci-fi" works because sci-fi is a genre. Anime is not.

[Thurbane]

It is a put-down for anime; it implies that all anime works, regardless of genre, share the same flavor and themes. It's a sweeping generalization that betrays either an unwillingness or indifference to any nuance the medium possesses.

"Too sci-fi" works because sci-fi is a genre. Anime is not.
Well, for starters, a generalization isn't neccessarily a put-down. It may well be inaccurate, but does not inherently imply a dislike (although, obviously, it can be linked to a dislike).

FWIW, "anime" obviously has quite a different meaning/common usage in most western countries than it does in it's country(s) of origin. If I was to describe something as "anime", basically everyone I know (here in Australia) would know what I meant. I think the western usage was summed up fairly well as "Cartoons that would be found in the Anime section of Blockbuster".

It's the nature of language itself - meanings of words change, especially when they are translated or cross-cultural. Aryan originally related to Indo-Iranian languages. Gay once primairly meant happy or joyous. Language changes and mutates all the time. I personally hate what internet and text speak has done to the English language, but rather than shaking my fist at the heavens, I just adapt and try to understand what people are saying.

[Psyren]

Well, for starters, a generalization isn't neccessarily a put-down. It may well be inaccurate, but does not inherently imply a dislike (although, obviously, it can be linked to a dislike).

It's not about disliking anime. Consider this:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/not_really_into_pokemon.png

Now the hatted individual might not actively dislike Ubuntu, but his response is still insulting. If you don't care about something to that degree (as anyone who describes ToB as "anime" does not actually care about anime) then you're better off just not using it in your rhetoric at all.



FWIW, "anime" obviously has quite a different meaning/common usage in most western countries than it does in it's country(s) of origin. If I was to describe something as "anime", basically everyone I know (here in Australia) would know what I meant. I think the western usage was summed up fairly well as "Cartoons that would be found in the Anime section of Blockbuster".


Again, that is the outsider's perspective - specifically, the outsider that cannot be bothered with actually going any deeper than the surface. It's just a condescending and dismissive attitude that, while it may bear no actual malice, is still an affront to those who do like the medium (and more importantly, know that it has genres and subgenres within it.)


It's the nature of language itself - meanings of words change, especially when they are translated or cross-cultural. Aryan originally related to Indo-Iranian languages. Gay once primairly meant happy or joyous. Language changes and mutates all the time. I personally hate what internet and text speak has done to the English language, but rather than shaking my fist at the heavens, I just adapt and try to understand what people are saying.

Many times, language changes because those who care enough about a concept nevertheless yield its definition to those who don't. Well, not me.

[Thurbane]

It's not about disliking anime. Consider this:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/not_really_into_pokemon.png

Now the hatted individual might not actively dislike Ubuntu, but his response is still insulting. If you don't care about something to that degree (as anyone who describes ToB as "anime" does not actually care about anime) then you're better off just not using it in your rhetoric at all.
I'm getting a red [X] for that image, sorry.

Again, that is the outsider's perspective - specifically, the outsider that cannot be bothered with actually going any deeper than the surface. It's just a condescending and dismissive attitude that, while it may bear no actual malice, is still an affront to those who do like the medium (and more importantly, know that it has genres and subgenres within it.)
I'm sorry if you take offense, but as an "outsider", I am simply using the word in the usage I am most familiar with - the colloquial usage in my corner of the world. I'm sorry if it causes frustration, but from my understanding the vast majority of people in other (non-Japanese) countries use it in the manner way I do. *shrug*

Many times, language changes because those who care enough about a concept nevertheless yield its definition to those who don't. Well, not me.
You are perfectly entitled to be a language purist, but don't be entirely surprised if it makes little difference in the long run. I think it fair to say that, other than to native speakers of the area in question, the rest of us do, in fact, understand what each other say when we describe something as "anime". You are also free to take offense, but in the vast majority of cases, I am sure none is intended.

It may also be worth noting that I have not, myself, in this thread defined ToB (or anything else) as being "too anime". I was merely trying to ofer an explantion of the alternate usage of the term many of us use.

[Keld Denar]

Link for your viewing pleasure. (http://xkcd.com/178/)

[Psyren]

I'm getting a red [X] for that image, sorry.

http://xkcd.com/178/

Edit: Psyrogue'd


I'm sorry if you take offense, but as an "outsider", I am simply using the word in the usage I am most familiar with - the colloquial usage in my corner of the world. I'm sorry if it causes frustration, but from my understanding the vast majority of people in other (non-Japanese) countries use it in the manner way I do. *shrug*

What I feel is closer to pity than frustration. It's like saying "That's too cartoon." "That's too video game." "That's too short story." Those are all equally nonsensical to me.

Note that the above is not directed at you; I recognize that you're only playing devil's advocate.

[Thurbane]

http://xkcd.com/178/
Thanks for the link.

What I feel is closer to pity than frustration. It's like saying "That's too cartoon." "That's too video game." "That's too short story." Those are all equally nonsensical to me.
Funny, I guess I would understand what someone meant if they described something as "too videogame" as well - a description that was thrown around a lot when 4E was released.

From your above post, you are OK with something being described as "too scifi" though? Because sci-fi is a pretty sweeping genre...from Jack Vance, to Starwars, to Aliens, to X-men, to 2001, to Aasimov etc.

I suppose I understand your point, that we are using it wrongly from it's original meaning; and that anime is a medium rather than a genre - but honestly, I think myself and other have pretty well described what our usage means. We could use wuxia, but also as pointed out above, that's often as hotly contested as anime...basically, I know what I mean by the term, and apparently many others do too, so I'm going to stick with it.

I honestly don't mean to offend, but I think we've reached an impasse. There was once a thread on exactly this topic (with many of the same posters), and I don't think it was resolved there, either.

[Psyren]

I don't recall contesting "wuxia." I think that captures exactly the feeling you're trying to describe.

I do contest "too videogame" for 4E (again, I find it nonsensical.)

An "impasse" would imply that I was trying to change your mind on something. I'm just communicating my side, I honestly don't care whether anyone picks it up or not. Free will and all that :smalltongue:

[Thurbane]

I don't recall contesting "wuxia." I think that captures exactly the feeling you're trying to describe.

I do contest "too videogame" for 4E (again, I find it nonsensical.)

An "impasse" would imply that I was trying to change your mind on something. I'm just communicating my side, I honestly don't care whether anyone picks it up or not. Free will and all that :smalltongue:
Fair enough.

The term wuxia was hotly deabted (obviously not by yourself) in the previous thread I mentioned above. I did a search back to July 09, but I can't find which one it was. Basically, I think some forum members or Chinese origin/decent contested "wuxia" as being misused in almost the same manner...from memory, the crux of the argument was that wuxia simply means "a warriors journey", and does not denote any particular kind of martial arts or action style.

[Psyren]

I think "wuxia" works for the same reason "sci-fi" works. However broad, they're both genres rather than forms of media and therefore have a consistency of theme.

Anyhow, this particular horse has been bludgeoned long enough (at least by me.)

[Thurbane]

Anyhow, this particular horse has been bludgeoned long enough (at least by me.)
True that - me too. :smallwink:

[Gametime]

FWIW, "anime" obviously has quite a different meaning/common usage in most western countries than it does in it's country(s) of origin. If I was to describe something as "anime", basically everyone I know (here in Australia) would know what I meant. I think the western usage was summed up fairly well as "Cartoons that would be found in the Anime section of Blockbuster".

Amusingly, this is more true than I think you realize. "Anime" just means "animation" in Japan; it's a Western oddity to use it only to refer to animation from Japan.

Psyren said most of what I wanted to say, and I don't want to drag out this debate much longer, but I just wanted to put forth one more point. The reason I don't like "anime" being used as though it were descriptive is because it reinforces the stereotype that all anime shares certain qualities. I know what you mean when you say "anime" because these stereotypes exist, and when you continue to use "anime" in that way it reinforces the perception that these stereotypes are accurate. Whether I can understand you isn't the point; the point is that using the word that way creates a cycle of justification for using the word that way. Whether or not you understand that anime can be more than just action cartoons for kids, using the word as though it were purely that creates the impression that it is.

Language changes over time, but with the growing visibility of different genres of anime in the West, there's no reason to assume this particular fight has already been lost.




Funny, I guess I would understand what someone meant if they described something as "too videogame" as well - a description that was thrown around a lot when 4E was released.

I would also understand what someone meant, and I would be just as irked as when people describe things as "too anime." (For example, what in the Nine Hells do Heavy Rain or Minecrafter have in common with 4th edition?)

This really emphasizes the point; when people say "too anime" or "too videogame," what they really mean is "too similar to the most commonly known genre of [medium]." With that in mind, it should be a fairly simple switch; "action heroics" for anime, "powergaming action" for video-games, what have you.

[drakir_nosslin]

Christ.
You might as well just shoot yourself in the chest and save time!

Tell that to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRGz9xSP_SA) guy :smallwink:

And ToB is a enjoyable book, just as these threads.

[Greenish]

Of all the things I thought I'd never read... :smalleek:That makes two three of us. :smalltongue:

[dsmiles]

Tell that to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRGz9xSP_SA) guy :smallwink:

My friends keep telling me that there are girls in that picture, but all I see is bacon.

[Jayabalard]

I don't recall contesting "wuxia." I think that captures exactly the feeling you're trying to describe.While you may have not objected to that term, we've seen a couple of threads where people got just as bent out of shape by people saying that "ToB is too wuxia" as some folks are about "ToB is too anime" ... And really, if you're ok with the former, and not ok with the latter, well... {{scrubbed}}

[Serenity]

'Wuxia' is at least a step in the right direction--it's still likely an overbroad term, but at least it refers to a genre instead of a medium. It's like someone said earlier--sci-fi covers a wide range of topics, but it's still more precise than 'that's so movie.'

I'd say 'Action Hero' is an even better term, as it's much more precise than either anime or wuxia, and also neatly avoids the unfortunate implications of using either of those terms as a negative comparison.

[Rixx]

Tome of Battle is written poorly.

[Psyren]

And really, if you're ok with the former, and not ok with the latter, well... {{scrubbed}}

Wuxia is a genre. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia)

Anime is a medium. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime)

I've been over this. I really don't see the hypocrisy.

[dsmiles]

Tome of Battle is written poorly.

So was everything else WotC put out for DnD. What's different about ToB?

[Psyren]

So was everything else WotC put out for DnD. What's different about ToB?

XPH was brilliant! :smalltongue:

(hurriedly sweeps the Soulknife under the rug)

[Esser-Z]

Tome of Battle is written poorly.

Actually, it's written pretty well, compared to a large chunk of 3.5. IHS is badly written, yes, but a lot of it's not.

[dsmiles]

(hurriedly sweeps the Soulknife under the rug)

Don't think for a second that I didn't see that, mister. :smallwink:

[Frosty]

But umm...at least we got the Soulbow!

[Psyren]

But umm...at least we got the Soulbow!

Which was only released online and not as part of the most lackluster and disappointing sourcebook in 3.5, nosirree!

[Frosty]

Which was only released online and not as part of the most lackluster and disappointing sourcebook in 3.5, nosirree!I thought that honor belongs to Complete Psionics?

[thompur]

I really don't understand when they sat ToB is "too Anime". When I read it, I never thought of Astro Boy, Tobor, the Eighth Man, Speed Racer, Kimba, the White Lion, Star Blazers, Captain Harlock, or Voltron. That's the anime I remember from my youth. In what way did ToB invoke anime? :smalltongue:

[Thurbane]

As per the many, many posts on previous pages, "anime" evokes different things to different people. :smallconfused:

If it helps, some people have suggested inserting "too action hero" in pace of "too anime".

...for myself, the type of anime that ToB brings to mind is more along the lines of DBZ. At least, that's the first thing that sprang to mind when I read the description of the maneuvre with the 100 radius blast of fire.

[Psyren]

I thought that honor belongs to Complete Psionics?

There was no such book! *hums loudly*
In case you're being serious, Complete Psionic is where you can find Soulbow (not the XPH)


As per the many, many posts on previous pages, "anime" evokes different things to different people. :smallconfused:

Using a medium in place of a genre tends to do that :smallamused:

[The Glyphstone]

As per the many, many posts on previous pages, "anime" evokes different things to different people. :smallconfused:

If it helps, some people have suggested inserting "too action hero" in pace of "too anime".

...for myself, the type of anime that ToB brings to mind is more along the lines of DBZ. At least, that's the first thing that sprang to mind when I read the description of the maneuvre with the 100 radius blast of fire.

And while that's valid, what many people here are saying is that you're committing an unfair generalization against the book. Desert Wind maneuvers, the ones with the '100ft radius blast of fire', are only 1 of 9 schools. 11% of the book's content is DBZ-esque, but for many critics, that seems enough to condemn it.:smallannoyed:

[Thurbane]

And while that's valid, what many people here are saying is that you're committing an unfair generalization against the book. Desert Wind maneuvers, the ones with the '100ft radius blast of fire', are only 1 of 9 schools. 11% of the book's content is DBZ-esque, but for many critics, that seems enough to condemn it.:smallannoyed:
I can agree with that...the anime/DBZ associations are really very little to do with why my group doesn't use ToB.

Mainly, it's that some of my group are very "part time" players, and aren't interested in learning/integrating a new subsystem into our games. We also play a more-or-less core only game, with a few select items or splat books added.

[Dsurion]

This horse has been bludgeoned to death, reanimated, and beaten again, but I'll throw in my two bits.

Almost everyone is either fanatic about the book, or dislikes it intensely for whatever reason. "Too anime. Too wuxia. Too action hero." Whatever. Do they get the general point across? Yes. Are they also being misused? Also yes. I just prefer to say "over the top". For some that sits well, others it doesn't. Again, whatever, to each his own.

Personally? I hold no particular liking or animosity towards ToB. If someone in my group wants to use it, fine. But they're presenting me with all of the information I need to know about their character in an easily referenced format while I'm DMing. If not, less I have to worry about. The only time I'll say give a flat NO is if we have two primarily martial characters and only one wants to use ToB classes/maneuvers. In that case, I tell the players to reach a consensus: either both use it, or neither do, because I'm not going to have one person outshined while the other is getting the chance to feel like a beacon of awesome.

I should also mention that we play primarily low-magic games/settings. More like Iron Heroes than traditional D&D. Very rarely does anyone ever wants to actually play a full-caster, so the issue doesn't come up.

[Susano-wo]

And while that's valid, what many people here are saying is that you're committing an unfair generalization against the book. Desert Wind maneuvers, the ones with the '100ft radius blast of fire', are only 1 of 9 schools. 11% of the book's content is DBZ-esque, but for many critics, that seems enough to condemn it.:smallannoyed:

lets not also forget all the desert wind maneuvers that aren't that flashy (though there are plenty that are plainly not mundane), such as wind stride and flashing sun


I just prefer to say "over the top" that is an apt phrasing.

[Gametime]

Almost everyone is either fanatic about the book, or dislikes it intensely for whatever reason. "Too anime. Too wuxia. Too action hero." Whatever. Do they get the general point across? Yes. Are they also being misused? Also yes. I just prefer to say "over the top". For some that sits well, others it doesn't. Again, whatever, to each his own.



I like the phrase "over the top" because I feel it accurately captures what people actively dislike about the book while at the same time capturing what a lot of fans like about the book. "The top" is positioned differently for different people, and whether the appropriate setting is under, on, or over said top varies from person to person, so the phrase itself nicely captures the subjectivity of the book.

I think a lot of ToB is over the top, and that's part of why it appeals to me, but it also makes perfect sense to me why that doesn't mesh for everyone.

[balistafreak]

I just prefer to say "over the top".

YES.

It's amusing to watch people try and play "realistic" characters alongside a (as written) Wizard and then complain that they are underpowered. Magic (once again, as written) is inherently over the top, aka REALITY BREAKING.

Take the following case:

**************************

Fighter: "I've trained all my life to use a spiked chain in battle. Prepare to - "

Wizard: *yawn* *Solid Fog* *Evard's Black Tentacles*

Fighter: :smallfrown:

***************************

Want to keep the image of a swordsman, but keep a more "even" playing field? Tome of Battle!

****************************

Wizard: "You again?" *Solid Fog*

Fighter Warblade: *IRRRRRROOOON HEAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRT SURRRRRRRRRGE*

Wizard: "That was - what?" :smalleek:

******************************

Of course the Wizard still has over 9000 tricks that can still trump the Warblade (and aren't even IHS vulnerable - *ahem*gate*ahem*), but this is a vast improvement over none, or at least none accomplishable through class features. (No, magic items and UMD do not count.)

Do you want a game where mundanes really are mundane, who live by their own blood, sweat, and tears, where every magic spell is a thing of wonder? Don't use Tome of Battle. For those of us who prefer heroes who can look magic in the face and at the very least kick it in the teeth, once? Use Tome of Battle.

Some games have magic as the first - certainly Tome of Battle would be at the very least somewhat bothersome there, even if one made sure to avoid everything specifically supernatural. But most games have magic as an established part of the setting, or even take this inherently "over the top" force "beyond the impossible", and this is why Tome of Battle is so highly recommended.

[The Glyphstone]

****************************

Wizard: "You again?" *Solid Fog*

Fighter Warblade: *IRRRRRROOOON HEAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRT SURRRRRRRRRGE*

Wizard: "That was - what?" :smalleek:

******************************


I've always preferred:
-----
Wizard: "You again?" *Dominate Person*

Barbarian with Mad Foam Rager/Warblade: *Iron Heart Surge*"BY CROM!"

Wizard: "Gurgle..." *dies*
------

But it's a good point regardless.

[Thurbane]

Do you want a game where mundanes really are mundane, who live by their own blood, sweat, and tears, where every magic spell is a thing of wonder? Don't use Tome of Battle. For those of us who prefer heroes who can look magic in the face and at the very least kick it in the teeth, once? Use Tome of Battle.
So, basically - if you like ToB use it, if you don't, then don't? Sounds like good advice to me.

[The Glyphstone]

So, basically - if you like ToB use it, if you don't, then don't? Sounds like good advice to me.

Too good advice. This is the internet, we're not allowed to be reasonable.:smallsmile:

[Starbuck_II]

So, basically - if you like ToB use it, if you don't, then don't? Sounds like good advice to me.

One problem might arise is you like but DM doesn't. Tyrrany of the DM and all.

[Thurbane]

One problem might arise is you like but DM doesn't. Tyrrany of the DM and all.
True...but that can be a problem with any source book, or subsystem. All you can do is discuss it with your DM, and see if you can reach an agreement. If it's a deal breaker, and no compromise can be reached, then you can always vote with your feet - but it's got to be a pretty inflexible group of people (DM and players) to reach that point, IMHO.

For instance, the next campaign I will be playing in is going to be HEAVILY houseruled by the DM (no feats, for starters, many base classes heavily modified and some removed, and a very small race selection). I'm a bit nervous about how it's going to play, but I'm flexible enough to go with the DMs wishes.

[balistafreak]

So, basically - if you like ToB use it, if you don't, then don't? Sounds like good advice to me.

Yup. But with the rider of what exactly ToB does to a game attached. :smallwink:


Too good advice. This is the internet, we're not allowed to be reasonable.:smallsmile:

:smallannoyed: Never again.

...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that was great. :smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

I don't even like "over the top" though...since some things, even mundane things, in the PHB are equally "over the top". My previous example of a fighter20 who can jump 2-3 times further than the current olympic records. Thats pretty "over the top", and doesn't even involve ToB. How is Steel Wind (I hit 2 guys at once) more "over the top" than Cleave (I hit 2 guys at once).

A Swordsage can set people on fire. So can a Wizard.

A Crusader can heal wounds. So can a Paladin.

A Warblade is really good at wompin on people. So is...well, a Fighter CAN be good at womping on people, but it takes a lot of effort!

[Thurbane]

I don't even like "over the top" though...since some things, even mundane things, in the PHB are equally "over the top".
Exactly and that's part of the communication issue we're having...to some of us, ToB has a certain "feel" from it's fluff and mechanics that is different from most other 3.X books. Some use the words "anime" or "wuxia" or "wire-fu", some "over the top", some "too action hero". It can often be very difficult to communicate the "feel" a book evokes in people.

I think, at the end of the day, we're kind of over analyzing it. If you like the book and it integrates well with your game, great. If you don't like it, and chose not to use it, that's fine too. Honestly, people really don't need to justify why they like or don't like things, especially to people on the internet that they will likely never meet in their life. :smalltongue:

My motto is live and let live. I'll admit, when ToB was first released, I jumped on the "ToB hater" bandwagon. Looking back, I feel more than a little silly for that (same with 4E). It's still not a book I chose to use, but I do believe it's every bit as valid as any other 3.5 book, and if it enhances the gaming experience of a group, more power to them. :smallsmile:

[Susano-wo]

I don't even like "over the top" though...since some things, even mundane things, in the PHB are equally "over the top".

WEll, you can't please al lthe people all the time...and you can't please any of the internet any of the time:smalltongue:

[Dsurion]

I don't even like "over the top" though...since some things, even mundane things, in the PHB are equally "over the top". My previous example of a fighter20 who can jump 2-3 times further than the current olympic records. Thats pretty "over the top", and doesn't even involve ToB. How is Steel Wind (I hit 2 guys at once) more "over the top" than Cleave (I hit 2 guys at once).

A Swordsage can set people on fire. So can a Wizard.

A Crusader can heal wounds. So can a Paladin.

A Warblade is really good at wompin on people. So is...well, a Fighter CAN be good at womping on people, but it takes a lot of effort!

Well, like I said, to each his own. YMMV, after all :smallsmile:

The point is that that class of player feels that ToB is too much of... something. Whatever it is, people are going to argue and whine about it either way, so there isn't a whole lot of point in trying to figure out what word to substitute for that "something".

But I have to say, using a L20 Fighter to demonstrate over the top doesn't sit well with me in comparison to ToB. Who's using the jump skill at twentieth level? :smalltongue:

Again, I have no problems with the book, nor have I any compulsion to use it. Most of these threads devolve into IM RITE UR WRONG LOLZ for no real reason. I'm more of the mindset that Thurbane gives off, that it's not worth arguing about. You either use it or don't. No need to anger everyone about your choice.

[Boci]

But I have to say, using a L20 Fighter to demonstrate over the top doesn't sit well with me in comparison to ToB. Who's using the jump skill at twentieth level? :smalltongue:

Any melee class whose had their item of flight dispelled.


For instance, the next campaign I will be playing in is going to be HEAVILY houseruled by the DM (no feats, for starters, many base classes heavily modified and some removed, and a very small race selection). I'm a bit nervous about how it's going to play, but I'm flexible enough to go with the DMs wishes.

If I had the opertunity to join such a game, I would need to know why the house rules were being implemaneted. Basically, why was the DM willing to spend what appears to be a long time changing the 3.5 mechanics, but not willing to simply go to the forumes and say "Here are my problems with 3.5, can anyone offer an alternative game that would solve these issues"?

[Thurbane]

If I had the opertunity to join such a game, I would need to know why the house rules were being implemaneted. Basically, why was the DM willing to spend what appears to be a long time changing the 3.5 mechanics, but not willing to simply go to the forumes and say "Here are my problems with 3.5, can anyone offer an alternative game that would solve these issues"?
A bit of background - the DM is a friend of mine of 20+ years. He is very "old school/grognard" in his gaming, and is an AD&D veteran. There is a lot he does like about 3.5, but also a lot he doesn't. He prefers low powered gaming, as opposed to high-fantasy type gaming. As for forums, he is really, really not an "online" type of guy.

There are probably other systems that cater better to the style of game he prefers, but as a self-employed tradesman with 2 children, he doesn't get much down time to pick up new systems; the rest of my group are in similar positions, and also don't want to switch to a different system (although there is sure to be quite a learning curve with all of his houserules, it should still be quicker than learning a new system).

On the plus side, I know from past experience his campaigns (in AD&D) are very immersive, and great from a setting/story perspective. He also heavily modded the AD&D rules back then, too.

Long story short: we take turns in DMing in my group of 7, and he's up next (after me). I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and see how it turns out...:smallsmile:

[Esser-Z]

Yup. But with the rider of what exactly ToB does to a game attached. :smallwink:


Gives melee Nice Things?

Seriously. Anything more than that is entirely the doing of the player.

[Warlawk]

I'm a bit late to the party, but you can put me firmly in the camp of "ToB is the best thing to happen to 3.X".

I tend to enjoy martial characters more than casters and ToB is right up my ally. My gaming group was a little gunshy when it was first released, but has come to love it as much as I do and there has been at least one ToB character in every game since it was released. We just started a new game last week and the DM specifically said "No ToB classes, feats, etc" because he wants to use them as the enemy and not have our characters know them inside out. In protest of this action I'm playing a straight Gold Efl 20 int Domain wizard with elven wizard 1 sub level that will progress into encantrix/archmage and just #@&$ all over everything (I kid, I actually had a good character concept for a wizard that I enjoy and just built from there).

ToB gets 3 thumbs up from me, even if I have to wait until I can cast Alter Self to get the third one!

[Jayabalard]

I just prefer to say "over the top". But... it doesn't have anything to do with arm wrestling...

[true_shinken]

Of course the Wizard still has over 9000 tricks that can still trump the Warblade (and aren't even IHS vulnerable - *ahem*gate*ahem*)


Nothing is immune to Iron Heart Surge! Nothing under this sky!!!

[Boci]

Nothing is immune to Iron Heart Surge! Nothing under this sky!!!

Wait, are you saying outer space is immune to iron heart surge? Stop nerfing the poor warblade class. Why can't you allow melee to have nice things?

[The Glyphstone]

Nothing is immune to Iron Heart Surge! Nothing under this sky!!!

And if it is, your inability to affect it with IHS is a condition affecting you, so you can IHS their immunity to IHS.:smallbiggrin:

[Godless_Paladin]

You can't IHS your way out of "Hold Person."

IHS works on everything except what it was probably thematically intended to work on.

[Amphetryon]

And if it is, your inability to affect it with IHS is a condition affecting you, so you can IHS their immunity to IHS.:smallbiggrin:

Must. Resist. Yo Dawg. Reference.... darn it. Look what you made me do. :smalltongue:

[Esser-Z]

You can't IHS your way out of "Hold Person."

IHS works on everything except what it was probably thematically intended to work on.
Yeah.

I'd say IHS would be best fixed by tightening up the writing a bit and making it a boost.

[true_shinken]

You can't IHS your way out of "Hold Person."

IHS works on everything except what it was probably thematically intended to work on.

Oh, you just had to kill the joke with your common sense! :smallbiggrin:


Wait, are you saying outer space is immune to iron heart surge? Stop nerfing the poor warblade class. Why can't you allow melee to have nice things?

I laughed so hard at this, my roomate woke up. She then read this and laughed as well. :smallbiggrin:

[dsmiles]

But... it doesn't have anything to do with arm wrestling...

*facepalm*

That was such a horrible movie...

[Optimator]

Horribly good, you mean!

[Susano-wo]

I'm afraid I don't get the arm wrestling reference...what's that from?

[Amphetryon]

I'm afraid I don't get the arm wrestling reference...what's that from?

Sly Stallone (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093692/)

[Susano-wo]

oh my god, that box alone cracks me up!:smallbiggrin:

[Optimator]

oh my god, that box alone cracks me up!:smallbiggrin:

Trust me, it's that good.

[Cogidubnus]

Ooh, this week's ToB thread! How have I missed this?

Anyway, for what it's worth, I like ToB. I think it gives new and interesting options to melee fighters.

I also think it could feel a little like casting (or at least Invocations), and that the Temple of Nine Swords in particular has a certain anime feel to it. Now, you don't actually have to let that colour your game - fluff is mutable. But if you think martial warriors should stab things, plain and simple, I can see why you'd dislike it.

[faceroll]

Whoah, next thing you know, monks will be too wuxia! :smalleek:

A monk is meant to be eastern flavored and wuxia (even if it fails horribly at either of those). I've seen a lot of advocates for replacing the Fighter with the guy who uses Wolf Climbs the Mountain.


You're probably right, I was really just contesting that Xena was more well known than Cap for pulling that stuff. The only one more well known than Cap for pulling amazing super-powered antics is him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGykVbfgUE).

Zena has a special exotic weapon. There exist other special exotic weapons that do similar things already in D&D. The Bloodstorm Blade can do it with any weapon because that's how awesome he is. And it is an Ex ability, which means he powers it with the power of awesome. I think there's a difference there. Also, zena's retarded and I don't really like my D&D to be full of overly choreographed fight sequences full of, well, spinning and drop kicks. But if that's what you're into it, I won't try and tell you how wrong you are.


No, you didn't. No one in your game ever took Leap Attack/Battle Jump as well, I believe. I'm not talking about magic per se, I'm talking about the D&D system as a whole. If you have a problem about jumping/doing a backflip being good in a fight, then you have problems with D&D, where Leap Attack is a very good feat and Tumble is a very good skill.

We have fluff issues with those, as well. But seeing as this is a thread for opinions on ToB, I figured that bringing up every gripe I have with 3.e is... off topic.


Go with "Action Hero". Xena, Hercules, Conan.... or pretty much anyone ever played by Arnold Schwarzenegger, Steven Segal, Bruce Willis, or Jason Stratham.

That huge guy shuffle they do while being fired at by dozens of automatic weapons and nothing lands... I guess if you like that element in your games, go for it? While hilarious, I prefer the guards to be better than storm troopers.


I don't even like "over the top" though...since some things, even mundane things, in the PHB are equally "over the top". My previous example of a fighter20 who can jump 2-3 times further than the current olympic records. Thats pretty "over the top", and doesn't even involve ToB. How is Steel Wind (I hit 2 guys at once) more "over the top" than Cleave (I hit 2 guys at once).

A Swordsage can set people on fire. So can a Wizard.

A Crusader can heal wounds. So can a Paladin.

A Warblade is really good at wompin on people. So is...well, a Fighter CAN be good at womping on people, but it takes a lot of effort!

I believe the only issues seriously expressed in this thread over ToB being over the top are the Ex maneuvers, like teleporting or healing, curing diseases, blindness, etc. which ought to be Su or something. I mean, you just yell really loud at someone and they get better from virtually every single status affliction in the D&D universe? You hurl a table at someone and it ends back in your square next round? Yet there's no magic involved? This is a huge deviation from the rest of 3.e, where such things are magical (or psionic, or supernatural, or whatever). No one has said flaming magical swords are too much, seeing that the only flaming swords in ToB are already magical.

[ScionoftheVoid]

A monk is meant to be eastern flavored and wuxia (even if it fails horribly at either of those). I've seen a lot of advocates for replacing the Fighter with the guy who uses Wolf Climbs the Mountain.

And why not? It's only a name, it isn't even a particularly unrealistic effect. It's not as if western martial techniques were any more serious in their naming.


Zena has a special exotic weapon. There exist other special exotic weapons that do similar things already in D&D. The Bloodstorm Blade can do it with any weapon because that's how awesome he is. And it is an Ex ability, which means he powers it with the power of awesome. I think there's a difference there. Also, zena's retarded and I don't really like my D&D to be full of overly choreographed fight sequences full of, well, spinning and drop kicks. But if that's what you're into it, I won't try and tell you how wrong you are.

Xena has an "X", not a "Z". Note that, AFAIK, Bloodstorm Blade can only be entered after fifth level, at which point pretty much any character is beyond human limits. I would not be surprised by a superhuman being who has practiced the technique can have their weapon return to them after throwing it. You seem to think that Ex abilities have to make sense, they're explicitly stated to be quite capable of breaking the laws of physics. This is part of the game, not just ToB. You're getting more than a little aggressive at the end there.


That huge guy shuffle they do while being fired at by dozens of automatic weapons and nothing lands... I guess if you like that element in your games, go for it? While hilarious, I prefer the guards to be better than storm troopers.

I have not seen the things being reffered to, but real life desensitised soldiers can and will shoot worse or less often against a specific, human target because they can't bring themselves to harm something that looks like them. If anything D&D is less realisitic about this by default, and you seem to like that style. I'm pulling this from a Cracked article. Accuracy may be suspect.


I believe the only issues seriously expressed in this thread over ToB being over the top are the Ex maneuvers, like teleporting or healing, curing diseases, blindness, etc. which ought to be Su or something. I mean, you just yell really loud at someone and they get better from virtually every single status affliction in the D&D universe? You hurl a table at someone and it ends back in your square next round? Yet there's no magic involved? This is a huge deviation from the rest of 3.e, where such things are magical (or psionic, or supernatural, or whatever). No one has said flaming magical swords are too much, seeing that the only flaming swords in ToB are already magical.

The "teleporting" is line-of-sight and line-of-effect stuff. It's just moving really fast. Hp are incredibly abstracted anyway, so healing by raising morale shouldn't be out of place as Ex. Shouting at someone else to cure them of afflictions might be silly, but I believe you're talking about Iron Heart Surge, which is just overcoming temporary effects by sheer force of will (or Power of Awesome, take your pick). The Bloodstorm Blade thing has already been covered, they've trained specifically for that trick past normal human limits. Most things to do with D&D and realism break down at the same point.

I would love to use ToB in a game, and may do so with a villain or two in the campaign I will be starting.

[Greenish]

A monk is meant to be eastern flavored and wuxia (even if it fails horribly at either of those). I've seen a lot of advocates for replacing the Fighter with the guy who uses Wolf Climbs the Mountain.Fighter? That's the guy who uses POWER ATTACK!, right? :smallamused:

Say it out loud and tell me it doesn't sound silly.

POWER ATTACK!

[dsmiles]

POWER ATTACK!You've got to say it from the diaphragm, Greenish. Like so. :smalltongue:

[Susano-wo]

I just gotta say, if the only problem with ToB is things being Ex when they should be Su, then it's an easy soultion to say "yeah, that's dumb, make it Su." tada!

but in the end, if its just that it feels wrong, it feels wrong, and no amount of changing Ex to Su will fix it..so why even bring up the Ex issue. At this point in the discussion (much less this latest iteration of it), it seems like its a red herring ,really.

(the flavor issue is another easy to fix issue, through a couple of means, but again, sometimes once X flavor is lodged in someone's brainmeats, its hard to get it removed, even if you change the names around...or show similar European names. From This random website (http://www.fightauthority.com/fighting-arts-forums/other-martial-arts-forum/european-martial-arts/styles/)Fiore dei Liberi an Italian, formed his own school of fencing and combat. He had a manual in 1410 entitled Flos Duellatorum or ?The Flower of Battle? )