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The Oakenshield
2010-11-06, 09:22 PM
My group has been playing 3.5 for a few years now, and they are finally coming to the realization that playing a martial character can be a lot less exiting than playing a caster.

However, in many cases, my players would much rather play a melee, combative character rather than a caster.

So I am wondering whether Tome of Battle would be a good purchase, to add more excitement to melee.

What are your opinion son ToB and my predicament?

SurlySeraph
2010-11-06, 09:25 PM
ToB is great, and I highly recommend it. I was very suspicious of it until I actually read it, at which point I realized that pretty much all the maneuvers are things most melee types should have a way to do anyway.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-06, 09:26 PM
Sounds like you're exactly the sort of group ToB was written for. There's plenty of dissent against it here, but just as much for it. Me, I love it.

Grynning
2010-11-06, 09:29 PM
You're going to be inundated with a ton of YES TOB = PURE WIN on this board. And for the most part, that's correct. It has a few editing mistakes and a little wonkiness like a lot of D&D books, but it's probably the best thing to ever happen to non-casters in 3.5.

It's funny, I really disliked the book when it came out and it took me years to come around, but now it's in my "must-have" category for any serious 3.5 fan. Just so much creativity and flexibility in the martial characters and disciplines, and a pile of cool feats and prestige classes too. Buy it, learn it, love it.

/thread

Runestar
2010-11-06, 09:54 PM
It helps make melee fun again by giving them options similar to what casters already enjoy.

Definitely a must have. Or at least, I can't go back to ever playing a fighter again. :smallannoyed:

true_shinken
2010-11-06, 09:58 PM
Gee, ToB thread on the same day as the monk thread? If we have the weekly 'does the paladin fall' thread today as well, we'll be out of subjects for the whole week! /sarcasm

I like ToB. It's a good book, it has a cool shonen manga feel that I throroughly enjoy and I also happen to like most of the illustrations.
Still, I never got to actually yell FIVE SHADOW CREEPING ICE ENERVATION STRIKE in-game and it saddens me.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-06, 10:05 PM
a big +1 tot he ToB is great crowd, awesome book... and true_shinken I feel your pain that has to be the most awesome maneuver name EVER!!!

Douglas
2010-11-07, 01:09 AM
For adding flexibility, options, and variation to melee combat, ToB is extremely good. That is exactly the thing it was primarily built for.

The big thing you have to watch out for is that it's a lot better optimized "out of the box" than core melee classes, so it gives a strong impression of being overpowered to groups not used to high optimization. If your group plays batman Wizards, DMM (Persist) Clerics, Shock Trooper Frenzied Berzerkers, Natural Spell Druids, and so on, ToB classes will fit right in and just provide extra options without really raising the power level. They might even seem weak compared to everything else, depending on how well you build them. If your group plays Weapon Specialization Fighters, unarmed Monks, Soulknives, blaster Wizards, healbot Clerics, etc., even a poorly built ToB character might utterly outclass the party.

Runestar
2010-11-07, 01:14 AM
Warblades actually deal less damage on a strike compared to full attacks from normal fighters or barbs (not the dungeoncrashing/shock-trooping kind). They are however, more versatile and able to deal with a variety of scenarios. :smallsmile:

tyckspoon
2010-11-07, 01:33 AM
Warblades actually deal less damage on a strike compared to full attacks from normal fighters or barbs (not the dungeoncrashing/shock-trooping kind). They are however, more versatile and able to deal with a variety of scenarios. :smallsmile:

Mind, if you're talking about the comparison between a Warblade and a not-well-optimized Fighter or Barbarian, I'm pretty sure you can pull more damage on an Emerald Razor + Full Power Attack or a well-rolled (Gem) Nightmare Blade than your traditional Fighter reliably does on a Full Attack, because that Fighter is probably fairly used to whiffing his lowest attack and possibly even his second-highest attack if he's trying to Power Attack too aggressively (and if he's not Power Attacking with some degree of real risk in his to-hits, he's probably not going to beat out the maneuvers for damage even when he does hit.)

AslanCross
2010-11-07, 01:40 AM
I had a hard time figuring out what it was about the first time I read it. The more I tried reading it properly, though, the more I warmed up to it. ToB is perhaps the most balanced fix for martial characters, and I daresay the "Magic by any other name" criticism of ToB is based only on a superficial resemblance and usually given by people who really didn't read the book much.

Tetsubo 57
2010-11-07, 03:37 AM
I will apparently be the dissenting opinion on the topic of ToB. I didn't like it. For me, it fell outside what I want in a 3.5 game. I saw the writing on the wall with this book that things were moving in a direction that I didn't like. I think that the PHB II answers all of the martial questions I have ever had. I felt that it meshed far better with the 3.5 system than the ToB. But that's just me.

Chrono22
2010-11-07, 03:54 AM
I kind of decided spellcasters dominating my high level combats was something I didn't want in the game, so I've made a bunch of house rules to try to fix it. Nothing works so well, though, as actually bringing them closer to the mages' level of power by giving them something to do besides full attack.
Basically ToB is like... an improved version of normal melee combat, that makes more sense and works more fluidly. It functions similarly to spells, but with less supernatural effects and more extraordinary attacks.

BobVosh
2010-11-07, 04:21 AM
This forum falls under the "love it" section for the most part, but this trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoveItOrHateIt) describes it very well. I think the...warblade is on the wizard website. They have one of the three base classes on the wizard site, and a smattering of the maneuvers. I recommending looking at it, then deciding if you want to use it.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-07, 04:46 AM
Another +1 for ToB. It's quick to learn, hard to screw things up, and fun to dip. Other than straight arcanists, who really don't need much love (I know, I love to play them), it's hard to imagine a character who couldn't be enhanced with a few of those nine swords.

Runestar
2010-11-07, 06:07 AM
Mind, if you're talking about the comparison between a Warblade and a not-well-optimized Fighter or Barbarian, I'm pretty sure you can pull more damage on an Emerald Razor + Full Power Attack or a well-rolled (Gem) Nightmare Blade than your traditional Fighter reliably does on a Full Attack, because that Fighter is probably fairly used to whiffing his lowest attack and possibly even his second-highest attack if he's trying to Power Attack too aggressively (and if he's not Power Attacking with some degree of real risk in his to-hits, he's probably not going to beat out the maneuvers for damage even when he does hit.)

Any fighter worth his salt should be able to crank his attack bonuses high enough to hit reliably, even on his worst attack (especially at higher lvs, with the ability to take 10 via weapon supremacy).

I also factor in abilities granting extra attacks such as haste, which standard-action strikes cannot benefit from.

Still, the benefit of strikes is that the warblade can move and still hit for respectable damage, while the fighter is reduced to a single attack for pitiful damage if he is denied the full-attack action for whatever reason. So you trade damage for consistency. :smallsmile:

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-11-07, 06:15 AM
I'm a big fan of it, too, as it gives melee classes so many more options to them on a whim.

Mikka
2010-11-07, 07:17 AM
Throne of Bhaal is awesome, but i suggest you play Shadows of Amn , and probably Baldurs Gate 1 before starting it : )

Tytalus
2010-11-07, 07:25 AM
It's probably the best book to come out of 3.5.

Very few items are unclear/problematic as written (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics), though. Unfortunately, they royally screwed up the errata.

lesser_minion
2010-11-07, 07:55 AM
I'd recommend it.

It probably is the best D&D sourcebook ever written, although I wouldn't call it great -- while it's better than a lot of the material surrounding it, a lot of that material is tripe.

A couple of manoeuvres -- Iron Heart Surge, and White Raven Tactics -- are poorly explained. Iron Heart Surge can be spun out into a doomsday weapon "the sun affects me, so I end it with Iron Heart Surge!", while White Raven Tactics can be spun out into infinite turns.

Bear in mind that it does operate by treating martial arts techniques as if they were a special kind of spell -- they have a similar set of basic rules behind them, for example (although manoeuvres are usable on a per-encounter basis). Mostly, the 'spells' are things that a skilled martial artist should be able to do, and if you have a problem with one, you don't have to take it. However, the system can get a little abstract at times.

thompur
2010-11-07, 11:48 AM
UUGGGHHHH! It's a horrid system! On the other hand, the artwork in it is absolutely GORGEOUS!!

Wait...what? This isn't 'opposite day'?:smalltongue:

Zaq
2010-11-07, 12:01 PM
Add my voice to the chorus of praise. It makes so many different melee archetypes viable. Single perfect cut jedi/samurai/weapon master? Check! Tank who's actually able to reliably and defend his or her allies? Check! Master of the battlefield who can decide where his or her enemies will and will not go? Check! Stalwart commander leading the troops to victory? Check! And these are just going with single schools, not even combining them into whole characters. ToB classes are very easy to play (I've only ever seen one person mess up a warblade, and he's . . . well, dumb), they offer lots to veterans and newbies alike, and they're simply fun. That, and the multiclassing system is what multiclassing should have been from day 1.

It's not perfect, of course. There are a few things that are poorly worded (even aside from the obvious IHS and WRT, Adaptive Style has sparked a fair bit of discussion in my group, as has Covering Strike, believe it or not), and the complaint that always comes up is that ToB has a much higher optimization floor than most of the traditional melee classes. I view this as a feature, not a bug, but it's true that a warblade who doesn't know what he or she's doing will outshine a fighter who doesn't know what he or she's doing pretty much without even trying. There are a few limitations that are easy to miss (the most obvious being that only the crusader is proficient with martial ranged weapons, or that Stone Dragon maneuvers can only be used on the ground), but it's still a fantastic book.

mostlyharmful
2010-11-07, 02:42 PM
scrub off all fluff and the goodawful naming system and pretty much nobodies got much of a problem with it in the groups I run or play with. it's just melee how it SHOULD have been done, not all that more powerful but varied, creative, modularized and specilizable. If your group likes it there's some nice ranged homebrew on this very site to go along with it.

ToB! The BSF can have nice things too!:smalltongue:

grarrrg
2010-11-07, 03:11 PM
At the very least the feats "Martial Study" and "Martial Stance" give a single class Fighter SOMETHING to do with his feats.:smalltongue:

If nothing else, try before you buy!
Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) is posted online and so are the Maneuver Cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).

You'll probably have to read between the lines to figure out exactally how they work, as I don't think we are allowed to post that information.



Throne of Bhaal is awesome, but i suggest you play Shadows of Amn , and probably Baldurs Gate 1 before starting it : )

:smallwink:I see what you did there.

Hawk7915
2010-11-07, 04:20 PM
If you are used to your Weapon Focus, Sword and Board fighter being the party hero, backed up by his Blaster Wizard friend who's out of spells after a fight, and his heal bot cleric...then Tome of Battle might feel like too much for your tastes. This definitely happened to my group, since no one but me could optimize out of a wet paper bag.

But it doesn't sound like your play group is like that, in which I heartily recommend it. It's a ton of fun, it lets melee hang with spellcasters (sort of), and it lets you as DM design interesting warrior villains that aren't Gishes and CoDzillas.

Keld Denar
2010-11-07, 04:50 PM
I'd highly suggest it. One of my RL groups has a bunch of newbies who've never played 3.5 before. It took the DM all of 3 minutes to explain how the maneuvers worked, and off they were having a ton of fun!

Now, if we can get one of the players to stop shouting BONECRUSHER all the time...

Gensh
2010-11-07, 05:13 PM
It's definitely something situational. The more your group knows the rules and the more powerful their characters already are, the more likely you'll need ToB for the nonmagical classes to keep up with the fullcasters. On the other hand, if you've got a completely casual group, you may need to kill it with fire. Case in point, I ban ToB from my games because only one player is remotely competent. When we rotated DMs for a few weeks once, and the new DM allowed the one guy who always nagged me about playing swordsage do so, he killed literally everything(except an aristocrat 1 that the ranger crit-failed gagging), leaving the rest of us feel mostly useless.

Godless_Paladin
2010-11-07, 05:14 PM
From a design perspective, I think ToB is a fantastic improvement over the core Fighter, Monk, etc. It also has a nice multiclassing system.

It's not all it could be, but it's a damn sight better than the likes of the Fighter.

faceroll
2010-11-07, 05:18 PM
If a hill giant picked up a couple levels of crusader, what level maneuvers does he have access to?


I had a hard time figuring out what it was about the first time I read it. The more I tried reading it properly, though, the more I warmed up to it. ToB is perhaps the most balanced fix for martial characters, and I daresay the "Magic by any other name" criticism of ToB is based only on a superficial resemblance and usually given by people who really didn't read the book much.

Uhh, like how you can hit a cat and gain HP back? Or turn into a cloud of shadows and instantaneously transport yourself?

Ravens_cry
2010-11-07, 05:21 PM
I've heard it's good, adding a lot of good options for melee without making things too magical. Emphases on what I have heard though, I don't own it and have never had a chance to go through it personally, so all this is hearsay.

Godless_Paladin
2010-11-07, 05:22 PM
I daresay the "Magic by any other name" criticism of ToB is based only on a superficial resemblance and usually given by people who really didn't read the book much.


Or turn into a cloud of shadows and instantaneously transport yourself?
Ah, the Shadow Hand Swordsages.

You have a problem with ninja monks getting this ability? That makes me sad. :smallfrown:

The one that plays Barbarian or Fighter is the Warblade. Not the Swordsage or Crusader.

faceroll
2010-11-07, 05:26 PM
Ah, the Shadow Hand Swordsages.

You have a problem with ninja monks getting this ability? That makes me sad. :smallfrown:

Strawman.

I was responding to this:
"I daresay the "Magic by any other name" criticism of ToB is based only on a superficial resemblance and usually given by people who really didn't read the book much."

There are a couple schools in ToB that have a plethora of Ex abilities that should have been Su. Like the Shadowhand teleporting stuff. Or Devoted Spirit's healing.


The one that plays Barbarian or Fighter is the Warblade. Not the Swordsage or Crusader.

wut?

Godless_Paladin
2010-11-07, 05:33 PM
Strawman. No it isn't. You just misunderstood my point.


I was responding to this:
"I daresay the "Magic by any other name" criticism of ToB is based only on a superficial resemblance and usually given by people who really didn't read the book much."

Of course that's what you were responding to. And that is exactly the context to which I was responding.

I was telling you that the magic-by-another-name criticism is in regards to "classes that don't already use supernatural powers anyways" (e.g. replacing the Fighter, etc). When you direct that argument anywhere near a Paladin or Ninja / Monk replacement, there's a serious problem in that those guys weren't entirely nonmagical to begin with. The Fighter replacer is the Warblade, not the Swordsage or Crusader.

That said, the Crusader's "hit things to heal friends" maneuver is, IMHO, a poorly thought out mechanic and I hate it. :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2010-11-07, 05:34 PM
If a hill giant picked up a couple levels of crusader, what level maneuvers does he have access to? Hill Giants have 12 HD so IL 6+Class levels would be my guess.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-07, 05:40 PM
If a hill giant picked up a couple levels of crusader, what level maneuvers does he have access to?

12 Hd = 6 Initiator (non-martial adepts add 1/2 to the number). Any martial adept level would add to this on a 1:1 rate.
At 1st level Crusader: (6 =1 =7) 4 level maneuvers (says pick what you qualify for), but 1st level Stances (it says you get 1st level only).
At 2nd level and higher depends on what you have preqs for (intiator level).

Keld Denar
2010-11-07, 05:42 PM
Pretty much yea...people have no problem with a monk using Abundant Step (SLA Dim Door), but as soon as a Swordsage wants to Shadow Step/Stride/Blink, everyone raises the yellow card.

Yea, I'll concede the Devoted Spirit school. Some of the stuff in there should have been SU at least. But you know what? YOU have the power to simply assign SU tags to the end of those power. It won't make a difference in 99% of game though, unless you plan to spend a goodly portion of time inside of an AMF.

A goodly number of abilities in Shadow Hand and Desert Wind explicitly are SU. If they are SU, they should do things like transport me through space or conjour fire into the realm material. But not all swordsages are magical. You could have one with primarily Diamond Mind and Setting Sun manevuers with a spattering of Stone Dragon and be completely non-magical.

Gametime
2010-11-07, 06:15 PM
Uhh, like how you can hit a cat and gain HP back? Or turn into a cloud of shadows and instantaneously transport yourself?

Some of the maneuvers should pretty obviously be labeled as "supernatural." When people level criticisms against the book for being "too magical," though, they rarely seem to object to only the schools that actually contain magic-ish maneuvers.

Very few people seem to object to ToB on the grounds that some disciplines are overtly magical... likely because people realize that if you don't like magical fighters, then you can just not use the magical disciplines while still getting plenty of material out of the book.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-07, 06:25 PM
Uhh, like how you can hit a cat and gain HP back? Or turn into a cloud of shadows and instantaneously transport yourself?

If by cat you mean dire tiger or something similar, sure. It's amazing how many people forget the little bit in the Crusader's Strike line that says 'this foe must pose a threat to you or your allies in some direct, immediate way'.

Not that this makes it being (EX) any less silly, but unless you keep a commoner hireling on tow explicitly to make anything hostile you run into qualify as an immediate threat, you can't regain HP off (ordinary) cats.:smallsmile:

sonofzeal
2010-11-07, 07:08 PM
If by cat you mean dire tiger or something similar, sure. It's amazing how many people forget the little bit in the Crusader's Strike line that says 'this foe must pose a threat to you or your allies in some direct, immediate way'.
I do not believe Martial Spirit carries this same caveat.

HunterOfJello
2010-11-07, 07:09 PM
It's just sad that ToB was introduced at the very end of 3.5e instead of at its creation. Then again, it would have made 3.5e look like 4e eventually.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-07, 07:41 PM
I do not believe Martial Spirit carries this same caveat.

Hm. Looks like you're right...all Martial Spirit requires is something being an 'opponent'.

AslanCross
2010-11-07, 07:49 PM
If a hill giant picked up a couple levels of crusader, what level maneuvers does he have access to?



Uhh, like how you can hit a cat and gain HP back? Or turn into a cloud of shadows and instantaneously transport yourself?

I was not actually referring to the actual flavor of the strikes, but the idea that melee was improved like this: "Oh, they have slots! Oh, they have nine levels! Oh, they just gave the fighters magic and called it something else!"

There's also the false generalization that ALL of the strikes are magical, and that all of them cause weapons to burst into flame.

I was saying that people saw the (Su) maneuvers and made a false generalization: "This maneuver is clearly supernatural, therefore everything else is, and since they have nine levels of maneuvers, they clearly gave them Vancian casting."

I was not saying that none of them are magical, nor was I arguing the (Su)-ness or (Ex)-ness of others.

Gametime
2010-11-07, 08:03 PM
If by cat you mean dire tiger or something similar, sure. It's amazing how many people forget the little bit in the Crusader's Strike line that says 'this foe must pose a threat to you or your allies in some direct, immediate way'.

Not that this makes it being (EX) any less silly, but unless you keep a commoner hireling on tow explicitly to make anything hostile you run into qualify as an immediate threat, you can't regain HP off (ordinary) cats.:smallsmile:

Well, at first level you still could. The party wizard is probably quaking in fear of that perfectly ordinary housecat, after all.


Hm. Looks like you're right...all Martial Spirit requires is something being an 'opponent'.

A common sense reading of that phrase (which, I realize, is dangerous ground when discussing RAW) seems to restrict the stance's healing to melee attacks against things that oppose you. So you could gain health by punching a harmless housecat in the throat, but only if that housecat was (for some reason) obstructing you in some way.

Kylarra
2010-11-07, 08:32 PM
I was not actually referring to the actual flavor of the strikes, but the idea that melee was improved like this: "Oh, they have slots! Oh, they have nine levels! Oh, they just gave the fighters magic and called it something else!" Well they also have scrolls scripts, that, despite the non-magicalness that can be emphasized, are inherently magical and somehow disapoof into smoke after being used.

Quietus
2010-11-07, 09:40 PM
I don't have an issue with ToB itself - in terms of playability, it'd certainly be nice to use with many of my groups, and would bring the general level of char-op up a bit. My problem with it is the attitude on these forums that if you don't have it, you're Doing It Wrong, and how even when within the first three lines of a post asking for help, you put, in bold, ToB is not an option, at all, ever, not even then, one of the first six posts will tell you that your Monk should be a Swordsage.

Yes, I know people don't always read the OP. That doesn't excuse this kind of behavior.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-07, 10:03 PM
Yes, I know people don't always read the OP. That doesn't excuse this kind of behavior.

You can't blame ToB for that. :smallyuk:People do the same thing with 'I want to be concept X that doesn't use magic' and say 'Be a Wizard/Prestige X/Prestige Y', or 'I want to make a Core+Complete Rogue for spying' only to find 'be a Shadow Creature Ghostwise Halfling with the Craven Feat'. That's not excusable either, but scapegoating ToB for the behavior of ignorant people isn't really fair to the book or its (rational) fans.

tldr: Hate the playa fanboys, not the game sourcebook.

Ormur
2010-11-07, 10:20 PM
Well, there are large chunks of ToB legally available on the internet but still, a lot of advice given seems assumes everyone has access to every book.

Personally I have found ToB to be both very useful and fun for building both PCs and NPCs. Considering the optimization level of our group it's all but indispensable in making melee characters fun and useful.

I don't care about flavour or mechanics that might not make sense as non-magical, in that respect it's no different from most everything in D&D 3,5. It simply doesn't make sense as a simulation anyway and the fact some interesting class can teleport or heal or must recharge without it being labelled "magical" changes nothing.

So in my opinion if you can get it and want more options for melee there's no reason not to use it.

Kallisti
2010-11-07, 10:24 PM
ToB objectively makes melee more powerful.

I also believe that it makes melee more interesting, but that's a matter of opinion.

I highly recommend it; it sounds like it'd be perfect for your group.

Also, I once did get to yell FIVE SHADOW CREEPING ICE ENERVATION STRIKE DEATH ATTACK! It was pretty awesome, especially when the BBEG nat-1'd the Fort save and was paralyzed instantly.

Runestar
2010-11-07, 11:07 PM
Uhh, like how you can hit a cat and gain HP back? Or turn into a cloud of shadows and instantaneously transport yourself?

In game terms, the hp gained from martial spirit is supposed to represent your improved morale from successfully hitting your foe. So your wounds don't so much close right before your very eyes. Rather, your spirits are lifted.

I suppose it is an abstraction that got implemented quite awkwardly.

AslanCross
2010-11-07, 11:21 PM
Well they also have scrolls scripts, that, despite the non-magicalness that can be emphasized, are inherently magical and somehow disapoof into smoke after being used.

Yeah, those. I didn't think they were really necessary.

AllisterH
2010-11-07, 11:44 PM
Technically...I'm not sure those teleportation techniques of the shadow hand should be looked as MAGICAL.

If you look in the foreword before the school descriptions, it mentions that Teleport effects in ToB require BOTH

Line of Sight

(can't teleport around a corner)

AND

Line of Effect

(can't teleport past a glass window..)


I think those teleportations moves are simply high-speed moves over a short distance which RESEMBLE teleportation a la what you seen in your typical shonen anime

Psyren
2010-11-07, 11:46 PM
In game terms, the hp gained from martial spirit is supposed to represent your improved morale from successfully hitting your foe. So your wounds don't so much close right before your very eyes. Rather, your spirits are lifted.

I suppose it is an abstraction that got implemented quite awkwardly.

Kind of like hit points themselves :smalltongue:

Toric
2010-11-08, 01:31 AM
Hm. Looks like you're right...all Martial Spirit requires is something being an 'opponent'.

Which means a crusader could heal his whole party by challenging harmless creatures or even inanimate objects to duels depending on interpretation.

....This makes Don Quixote even more awesome than he already is. :smallsmile:

Anyway, relevance: Tome of Battle classes are basically what everyone's been saying: more powerful than standard melee classes, and are more interesting as combat templates because you have more actions to describe in different ways than a standard or full attack. Maneuvers are expended once they're used, but can be regained during a fight with varying difficulty so non-magicians can still apply more constant beatdown than casters.

Tome of Battle was the inspiration for 4E martial classes and the entire power system, and it shows. ...Actually, yeah, if you're on the fence and you've tried 4E, just read the previous sentence and you'll know whether you'd like TOB.

WinceRind
2010-11-08, 01:39 AM
I haven't played with it yet, I'm a bit of a rookie in D&D with only a few campaigns under my belt.

However, from the few glances I've had, it's pretty awesome. I could get pretty annoyed by the whole "early-martial arts movie" thing (okay, it's not just movies, but you know what I mean) that seems to saturate much of ToB, but it could be bearable and even amazingly fun in right amounts.

As mechanical side goes, I think it's awesome. All the stances and, frankly, pretty much "martial magic", seem like a great addition to the arsenal of ye average fighter-type. No more mere power-attack + leap attack stuff.

Felhammer
2010-11-08, 02:10 AM
My players used to be VERY martial inclined, so much so we often found ourselves without a single spell caster outside of a healing-oriented cleric. In this group, we found the ToB classes were significantly unbalanced.

However is a group where people game with self-centered Clerics, know everything Wizards and do everything Druids then the ToB becomes much more balanced, IMO. Heck in that kind of environment ToB is probably too weak. :smallfurious:

A rule of thumb I'd use is this - test the ToB out for 3 or 4 sessions. Ask all of your players individually how they feel. If everyone is cool with the book, then no worries! If a few of your players have a problem with the book then see what their grievances are and talk it over with the whole group and see if you can't come to a nice compromise/house rule. Then again, that's the policy I take with every book (so maybe I'm weird). :smallsigh:

ffone
2010-11-08, 02:22 AM
No it isn't. You just misunderstood my point.



Of course that's what you were responding to. And that is exactly the context to which I was responding.

I was telling you that the magic-by-another-name criticism is in regards to "classes that don't already use supernatural powers anyways" (e.g. replacing the Fighter, etc). When you direct that argument anywhere near a Paladin or Ninja / Monk replacement, there's a serious problem in that those guys weren't entirely nonmagical to begin with. The Fighter replacer is the Warblade, not the Swordsage or Crusader.

the objection was not to the Paladin, Monk, or Ninja being mostly physical characters with some Su or Sp abilities and-or spells. The issue is certain analogous ToB abilities that are Ex.

Boci
2010-11-08, 03:23 AM
the objection was not to the Paladin, Monk, or Ninja being mostly physical characters with some Su or Sp abilities and-or spells. The issue is certain analogous ToB abilities that are Ex.

Yeah. Too bad there no way a DM could change any of that.

faceroll
2010-11-08, 06:19 AM
Hill Giants have 12 HD so IL 6+Class levels would be my guess.

So it's HD and not Character Level? Cause that makes high HD, low CR monsters absolutely PERFECT for having a few levels of ToB stuff.

Heh heh heh.


Pretty much yea...people have no problem with a monk using Abundant Step (SLA Dim Door), but as soon as a Swordsage wants to Shadow Step/Stride/Blink, everyone raises the yellow card.

Abundant step is an SLA. Shadow Hand school is almost entirely Ex abilities, the Shadow Step line in particular. I ruled that Shadow Step et al. was an Su with [teleportation] tag, and a player made a brutal shadow pouncing TWF monster of a build.


Yea, I'll concede the Devoted Spirit school. Some of the stuff in there should have been SU at least. But you know what? YOU have the power to simply assign SU tags to the end of those power. It won't make a difference in 99% of game though, unless you plan to spend a goodly portion of time inside of an AMF.

What fallacy is that? Oberoni or something? I tend to include anti-magic effects in my games because it seems silly for the antagonists to have no way to deal with the super-effectiveness that is magic.


A goodly number of abilities in Shadow Hand and Desert Wind explicitly are SU. If they are SU, they should do things like transport me through space or conjour fire into the realm material. But not all swordsages are magical. You could have one with primarily Diamond Mind and Setting Sun manevuers with a spattering of Stone Dragon and be completely non-magical.

For sure, but there are still a good deal of very useful maneuvers in schools that really ought to have been Su.


If by cat you mean dire tiger or something similar, sure. It's amazing how many people forget the little bit in the Crusader's Strike line that says 'this foe must pose a threat to you or your allies in some direct, immediate way'.

Not that this makes it being (EX) any less silly, but unless you keep a commoner hireling on tow explicitly to make anything hostile you run into qualify as an immediate threat, you can't regain HP off (ordinary) cats.:smallsmile:

Cats are freakin' dangerous man!


I was not actually referring to the actual flavor of the strikes, but the idea that melee was improved like this: "Oh, they have slots! Oh, they have nine levels! Oh, they just gave the fighters magic and called it something else!"

There's also the false generalization that ALL of the strikes are magical, and that all of them cause weapons to burst into flame.

I was saying that people saw the (Su) maneuvers and made a false generalization: "This maneuver is clearly supernatural, therefore everything else is, and since they have nine levels of maneuvers, they clearly gave them Vancian casting."

I was not saying that none of them are magical, nor was I arguing the (Su)-ness or (Ex)-ness of others.

I adore ToB, but my two gripes are 1) the sloppy editing and lack of Su that belongs on many maneuvers (imo) and 2) the anime feel. I know I could just rename the schools, yadda yadda, but that's as much as a design fail as making crappy mechanics and saying "just houserule what you don't like, yo!"


Technically...I'm not sure those teleportation techniques of the shadow hand should be looked as MAGICAL.

If you look in the foreword before the school descriptions, it mentions that Teleport effects in ToB require BOTH

Line of Sight

(can't teleport around a corner)

AND

Line of Effect

(can't teleport past a glass window..)


I think those teleportations moves are simply high-speed moves over a short distance which RESEMBLE teleportation a la what you seen in your typical shonen anime

I want to say there are a few dimensional hop-type spells that don't allow you to go around corners or through obstacles, but I am afb right now.


In game terms, the hp gained from martial spirit is supposed to represent your improved morale from successfully hitting your foe. So your wounds don't so much close right before your very eyes. Rather, your spirits are lifted.

I suppose it is an abstraction that got implemented quite awkwardly.

I understand what it is supposed to mean in game terms, but only until the end of 3.x did HP become a total abstraction. Virtually every other healing source implies that HP damage does include some scratches and bruises and the like. At the very least, in order for injury poison to work, you have to do at least 1 point of damage. That seems, to me, to tie HP and physical hurt up tighter than is easily abstracted away from.

HP recovery, up until late 3.5, was also a serious form of balance, but I'm not sure why they used it that way, from a mechanical standpoint. Personally, I think it's because the developers saw HP damage as getting beat up, so getting over being mauled by a dragon would require something beyond the ordinary. You couldn't just sit down for a breather or listen to a rousing speech and have your wounds heal- they would have to magically heal.

Boci
2010-11-08, 06:35 AM
What fallacy is that? Oberoni or something?

Nope. Oberoni is handwaving complex problems with "just houserule it". Adding a Su tag is not complex.


I tend to include anti-magic effects in my games because it seems silly for the antagonists to have no way to deal with the super-effectiveness that is magic.

Yeah but there are very few anti-magic affects that also affect supernatural abilities.


the anime feel. I know I could just rename the schools, yadda yadda, but that's as much as a design fail as making crappy mechanics and saying "just houserule what you don't like, yo!"

Those two are the same? Okay, I'll rename the schools, you rewrite the mechanics. Lets see which takes less time.

Runestar
2010-11-08, 06:35 AM
I understand what it is supposed to mean in game terms, but only until the end of 3.x did HP become a total abstraction. Virtually every other healing source implies that HP damage does include some scratches and bruises and the like.

That's true. Temp hp might have been a better alternative, but it would also be much weaker, as it would not stack.


So it's HD and not Character Level? Cause that makes high HD, low CR monsters absolutely PERFECT for having a few levels of ToB stuff.

Character lv is racial HD + class lvs. I am not sure if the devs intended for racial HD to count though. For example, an elder elemental could have IL12, and 1 lv of warblade lets it access 7th lv maneuvers. At cr12.

Greenish
2010-11-08, 06:38 AM
So it's HD and not Character Level? Cause that makes high HD, low CR monsters absolutely PERFECT for having a few levels of ToB stuff.

Heh heh heh.Yeah, it's pretty nice. Class levels are still better almost always, though.

Shadow Hand school is almost entirely Ex abilities, the Shadow Step line in particular.Shadow Hand has 12 Su maneuvers, out of 25 total maneuvers. I wouldn't say "almost entirely Ex". :smallamused:


What fallacy is that? Oberoni or something? I tend to include anti-magic effects in my games because it seems silly for the antagonists to have no way to deal with the super-effectiveness that is magic.Oberoni fallacy is that something isn't a problem because it can be fixed. I don't think the idea that something isn't a problem because it only comes up very rarely has a name, or even is necessarily a fallacy.

[Edit]:
Character lv is racial HD + class lvs.+ LA.

For example, an elder elemental could have IL12, and 1 lv of warblade lets it access 7th lv maneuvers. At cr12.CR system is notorious for being "less than perfect". Besides, it's not like Elder Elementals are playable.

Runestar
2010-11-08, 06:46 AM
CR system is notorious for being "less than perfect". Besides, it's not like Elder Elementals are playable.

I meant as npcs to be pitted against your party. It is quite interesting how much monsters can benefit from a dip or splash of ToB material. :smallamused:

faceroll
2010-11-08, 07:01 AM
Nope. Oberoni is handwaving complex problems with "just houserule it". Adding a Su tag is not complex.

Actually, the Oberoni "fallacy" is a specific application of a more general fallacy; that of denying the antecedent, which is indeed a generalized logical fallacy. Arguments that fall under that fallacy are badwrong arguments and may be dismissed out of hand.


Those two are the same? Okay, I'll rename the schools, you rewrite the mechanics. Lets see which takes less time.

Tweaking mechanics is far easier and more enjoyable for me than rewriting fluff. But I'd love to see your names for non-anime maneuvers.


Character lv is racial HD + class lvs. I am not sure if the devs intended for racial HD to count though. For example, an elder elemental could have IL12, and 1 lv of warblade lets it access 7th lv maneuvers. At cr12.

Dang. Well, it'd be hard to actually get anything other than what, Stone Dragon, due to maneuvers required X others in the school?


Yeah, it's pretty nice. Class levels are still better almost always, though.

Unless you're the DM. :smallamused:


Shadow Hand has 12 Su maneuvers, out of 25 total maneuvers. I wouldn't say "almost entirely Ex". :smallamused:

Thanks for counting.


I meant as npcs to be pitted against your party. It is quite interesting how much monsters can benefit from a dip or splash of ToB material. :smallamused:

I like to put cleric levels on giants, but now it looks like it's crusader levels on the undead. Heheheh.

Runestar
2010-11-08, 07:14 AM
Dang. Well, it'd be hard to actually get anything other than what, Stone Dragon, due to maneuvers required X others in the school?

It is actually fairly easy, provided you spend some of your monster feats on martial study/stance feats to act as prereqs. Then when you take your 1st few lvs of martial adept, you can quickly leapfrog up the maneuver tree.

This also gives your npc more maneuvers to play around with.

For instance, time stands still normally seems difficult to qualify for, as it requires 4 other diamond mind maneuvers. But to use my elder air elemental as an example, it could first spend 3 feats on the 3 save boosters which replace your save with a concentration check. Then at warblade4, it has IL16, and so can take stance of alacrity. Finally at warblade5, it can acquire time stands still.

This means that apart from the 4 maneuvers readied as a warblade5, the elemental still has an additional 3 maneuvers it can initiate 1/encounter each without recovery. Not really that debilitating when you consider that it is not supposed to survive the fight, and so such as drawback is actually quite inconsequential.:smallsmile:

Boci
2010-11-08, 07:22 AM
Actually, the Oberoni "fallacy" is a specific application of a more general fallacy; that of denying the antecedent, which is indeed a generalized logical fallacy. Arguments that fall under that fallacy are badwrong arguments and may be dismissed out of hand.

Poster A: "Some maneuvers do not have the Su tag even though they deserve it"
Poster B: "So give it to them"

That is not the Oberoni "fallacy" coming from poster B. Its common sense.


Tweaking mechanics is far easier and more enjoyable for me than rewriting fluff. But I'd love to see your names for non-anime maneuvers.

Look up the name of fencing techniques or western martial arts.

faceroll
2010-11-08, 07:26 AM
Poster A: "Some maneuvers do not have the Su tag even though they deserve it"
Poster B: "So give it to them"

That is not the Oberoni "fallacy" coming from poster B. Its common sense.

That is a textbook case of the fallacy, actually.


Look up the name of fencing techniques or western martial arts.

Uhh, that sounds like work I am uninterested in doing. It also sounds time consuming. Sounds a lot harder than, say, coming up with a monk fix or nerfing broken spells, or tweaking the barbarian to keep up with ToB classes.

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-08, 07:29 AM
+ LA.

Er, no. Character Level is HD. And only HD.

Effective Character Level includes LA, but that's a very different thing.

Boci
2010-11-08, 07:30 AM
That is a textbook case of the fallacy, actually.

No. Poster B is saying "If its a problem for you, change it."



Uhh, that sounds like work I am uninterested in doing. It also sounds time consuming. Sounds a lot harder than, say, coming up with a monk fix or nerfing broken spells, or tweaking the barbarian to keep up with ToB classes.

This is what forumes are for. Just post a thread asking alternative names to give the maneuvers.

sonofzeal
2010-11-08, 07:33 AM
Uhh, that sounds like work I am uninterested in doing. It also sounds time consuming. Sounds a lot harder than, say, coming up with a monk fix or nerfing broken spells, or tweaking the barbarian to keep up with ToB classes.
You want it to sound non-anime? Use an online translator to put them into German or Italian. Half of them will be real techniques or terms ("Sturm der Klingen" being a perfect example), and the other half will at least sound like it. Done.

Runestar
2010-11-08, 07:42 AM
Tweaking mechanics is far easier and more enjoyable for me than rewriting fluff. But I'd love to see your names for non-anime maneuvers.


Why do they even need names? They could simply be akin to a fighter's normal attacks, just that you have the option of doing other stuff rather than just damage, such as stunning your opponent.

You full attack, I full-attack as well, just that my full attack is a standard action like diamond nightmare blade or strike of perfect clarity. Both involve me swinging my sword at the enemy and dealing a buttload of damage. Why the need to make a distinction? :smalltongue:

true_shinken
2010-11-08, 07:43 AM
Also, I once did get to yell FIVE SHADOW CREEPING ICE ENERVATION STRIKE DEATH ATTACK! It was pretty awesome, especially when the BBEG nat-1'd the Fort save and was paralyzed instantly.
I'm so jealous :/


That's true. Temp hp might have been a better alternative, but it would also be much weaker, as it would not stack.

According to Rules Compendium, temp hp stacks. Yeah, I know. Vigor is even better now.

sonofzeal
2010-11-08, 07:46 AM
According to Rules Compendium, temp hp stacks. Yeah, I know. Vigor is even better now.
Vigor's wording specifically overrules this.

"Using this power again when an earlier manifestation has not expired merely replaces the older temporary hit points (if any remain) with the newer ones."

Runestar
2010-11-08, 07:55 AM
According to Rules Compendium, temp hp stacks. Yeah, I know. Vigor is even better now.

Actually, temp hp stacks only if they are from different sources, but overlap if they are from the same effect (rules compendium page 72). So if martial spirit granted temp hp, you would never be able to get more than 2 temp hp at any one time in this manner, unless the stance makes an exception.

true_shinken
2010-11-08, 08:05 AM
Actually, temp hp stacks only if they are from different sources, but overlap if they are from the same effect (rules compendium page 72). So if martial spirit granted temp hp, you would never be able to get more than 2 temp hp at any one time in this manner, unless the stance makes an exception.

Oh, I see, I see.
Well, I don't have a problem with martial spirit anyway.
Also, in one of the games I DM, the party healer is actually a Mystic Ranger/Assassin/Jade Phoenix Mage. Martial Spirit + TWF really does add up, Crusader Strike saved her at least once. Out of combat, she uses Touch of Healing (is that the name?); Healing Lorecall is also very useful. They got a Staff of Healing two sessions ago but it went unused until now.
OK, that was off-topic, but I just love that character.

Runestar
2010-11-08, 08:11 AM
Oh, I see, I see.
Well, I don't have a problem with martial spirit anyway.

The issue was with how martial spirit can heal as an extraordinary ability. Especially when it triggers off you hitting someone. More of a "how do you rationalise that" thingy than a balance issue. :smallsmile:

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-08, 08:40 AM
The issue was with how martial spirit can heal as an extraordinary ability. Especially when it triggers off you hitting someone. More of a "how do you rationalise that" thingy than a balance issue. :smallsmile:

HP isn't health.

There! Rationalised.

lesser_minion
2010-11-08, 08:59 AM
That is a textbook case of the fallacy, actually.

No, it isn't.


Actually, the Oberoni "fallacy" is a specific application of a more general fallacy; that of denying the antecedent, which is indeed a generalized logical fallacy. Arguments that fall under that fallacy are badwrong arguments and may be dismissed out of hand.

Nope. An argument cannot be dismissed out of hand ever. In order to dismiss an argument, you must demonstrate that the argument contains a fatal flaw -- if there is a logical fallacy, you must be prepared to explain how that fallacy is fatal to the argument. This is reality. We don't stop the thread and award you points because your opponent employed rhetoric.

Furthermore, no, statements of the form "It's not a bug because I can fix it" do not deny the antecedent. All they do is ignore the possibility that fixing the bug will prove non-trivial, or that it will introduce complications of its own. If you can show that the fix is trivial and without major side-effects, then handwaving it is perfectly acceptable.


Tweaking mechanics is far easier and more enjoyable for me than rewriting fluff. But I'd love to see your names for non-anime maneuvers.

Even so, you didn't compare like with like. Names are trivial to change. Fundamental elements of the system aren't. Now, if there were twenty pages of setting information you didn't like, then you might have a point.

Also, why should anyone give a damn whether something is 'anime' or not?

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-08, 09:00 AM
(Psst: Actual arguments and debates aren't like the ones you have in debate club.)

lesser_minion
2010-11-08, 09:01 AM
(Psst: Actual arguments and debates aren't like the ones you have in debate club.)

Why are you pointing this out to me? I know.

To dismiss an argument, you must demonstrate that it doesn't work. A debating society is the kind of place where you could just yell 'fallacy' and expect to be awarded points or something.

Psyren
2010-11-08, 09:01 AM
Also, why should anyone give a damn whether something is 'anime' or not?

Furthermore, what does that even mean? :smallconfused:

Serenity
2010-11-08, 09:35 AM
Hmm...almost half of Shadow Hand already has the [Su] Tag. Of the ones that don't, which should have it? Dance of the Spider, maybe. It does emulate Spider Climb, but this seems borderline, since Extraordinary Abilities can break the laws of physics. One With Shadow definitely should be, since you become temporarily incorporeal. The three Shadow Jaunt maneuvers. And Step of the Dancing Moth, where you float 5 feet above the ground. So out of 25 maneuvers, that's 12 already tagged as [Su] and 5, maybe 6 which should be. So 19 or 20 are properly tagged.

Callos_DeTerran
2010-11-08, 10:19 AM
I find it so odd most of the time that people say they 'like the mechanics of ToB but hate the fluff', considering the fluff is half of the draw to me. But I'm an odd person. I also find it weird that people are still doing the 'they have anime names' bit...alright, some of it is anime-like named (again, what does that even MEAN?) but Iron Heart? Diamond Mind? Other posters have already pointed out how their naming schemes correspond quite well to WESTERN fighting technique names. So...yeah.

...er....right...original point of this thread. I love ToB since, quite frankly, I haven't made a single character since I got it that hasn't used ToB in one fashion or another. I don't like playing spell-casters and I mix ToB in with my sneaky builds. Wait, that's untrue...I don't use ToB when I'm playing a non-combat type character...and even then I'm sorely tempted.

true_shinken
2010-11-08, 11:09 AM
HP isn't health.

There! Rationalised.

I loled at this, You, sir, are awesome.

Amphetryon
2010-11-08, 11:11 AM
HP is Health + general fatigue, all in one. Martial Spirit removes that general fatigue by lifting the character's... well, spirit.

Greenish
2010-11-08, 11:17 AM
Uhh, that sounds like work I am uninterested in doing. It also sounds time consuming. Sounds a lot harder than, say, coming up with a monk fix or nerfing broken spells, or tweaking the barbarian to keep up with ToB classes.He meant, I assume, that the actual names used in the western martial arts were pretty similar to ones in ToB.

Er, no. Character Level is HD. And only HD.

Effective Character Level includes LA, but that's a very different thing.Ah, right. They sure didn't make it too simple.

Furthermore, what does that even mean? :smallconfused:
anime |ˈanəˌmā|
noun
Japanese movie and television animation, often having a science fiction theme and sometimes including violent or explicitly sexual material.You know, ToB does contain violent material.

Keld Denar
2010-11-08, 11:18 AM
Actually, I just checked the three SH teleports last night...surprisingly no SU tags in the description. Wierd. They do have the [Teleportation] tags next to the school though. Is there some kinda blanket clause I missed that says anything with the [Teleportation] subtype is automatically SU?

Psyren
2010-11-08, 11:36 AM
You know, ToB does contain violent material.


Printed in the USA

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

true_shinken
2010-11-08, 11:44 AM
Actually, I just checked the three SH teleports last night...surprisingly no SU tags in the description. Wierd. They do have the [Teleportation] tags next to the school though. Is there some kinda blanket clause I missed that says anything with the [Teleportation] subtype is automatically SU?

It's just an editing mistake... though someone mentioned they seem to replicate shunpo, so it could be extraordinary indeed.

Gametime
2010-11-08, 12:23 PM
:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

There was a ToB thread awhile back where we got into a big discussion of what it means for something to be "anime." ToB does have similarities to certain genres of anime - specifically, the Saturday-morning-cartoon, fighting-heavy shows that are the best known examples in the West of "anime." But it's not like those themes, and those genres, don't exist in Western animation and non-animation media as well.

But calling something "too anime" is still as nonsensical as calling something "too movie." What people really mean isn't hard to figure out, but it's an unnecessary propagation of a stereotype about Japanese animation (and, more broadly, animation in general).

huttj509
2010-11-08, 12:50 PM
There was a ToB thread awhile back where we got into a big discussion of what it means for something to be "anime." ToB does have similarities to certain genres of anime - specifically, the Saturday-morning-cartoon, fighting-heavy shows that are the best known examples in the West of "anime." But it's not like those themes, and those genres, don't exist in Western animation and non-animation media as well.

But calling something "too anime" is still as nonsensical as calling something "too movie." What people really mean isn't hard to figure out, but it's an unnecessary propagation of a stereotype about Japanese animation (and, more broadly, animation in general).

Indeed.

For example Grave of the Fireflies (anime story about some kids in WW2 Japan, very sad. Very...very sad...very).

Some people keep using that word. It does not mean what they seem to think it means. :-)

true_shinken
2010-11-08, 12:53 PM
Indeed.

For example Grave of the Fireflies (anime story about some kids in WW2 Japan, very sad. Very...very sad...very).

Some people keep using that word. It does not mean what they seem to think it means. :-)

There are some very popular anime shows that have nothing to do with combat/ToB. A Viagem de Chihiro (Spirited Away), Nana, Azumanga Daioh, Shin-chan, Bakuman and even Death Note are just a few of them.
And Grave of Fireflies is awesome. It's just... so sad.

Ormur
2010-11-08, 12:57 PM
Actually, I just checked the three SH teleports last night...surprisingly no SU tags in the description. Wierd. They do have the [Teleportation] tags next to the school though. Is there some kinda blanket clause I missed that says anything with the [Teleportation] subtype is automatically SU?

I don't have the book with me now but I think there was some blanket statement about all [Teleportation] maneuvers being SU in the text about the shadow hand school.

Greenish
2010-11-08, 02:25 PM
:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:Well, it's the most obvious commonality between ToB and anime.

Runestar
2010-11-08, 06:20 PM
I mentioned this earlier, and would appreciate if someone from the "ToB is anime" address this.


Why do they even need names? They could simply be akin to a fighter's normal attacks, just that you have the option of doing other stuff rather than just damage, such as stunning your opponent.

You full attack, I full-attack as well, just that my full attack is a standard action like diamond nightmare blade or strike of perfect clarity. Both involve me swinging my sword at the enemy and dealing a buttload of damage. Why the need to make a distinction?

What exactly is it about the non-magical maneuvers like charging minotaur or steel wind which makes them any more "anime'ish" than standard fighter maneuvers like charging or cleave?

Let's ignore the more "magical" ones like desert wind and shadow hand for a moment. Say I build a warblade specialising in iron heart, diamond mind and white raven. What's so anime about that? Most of the maneuvers just involve swinging a sword! :smallconfused:

dsmiles
2010-11-08, 06:33 PM
Looks like I'm late to the party again. I'm starting to come around on ToB, I'm currently playing a Monk/Stone Dragon Warblade character (though I'd still rather play 4e).

Eldonauran
2010-11-08, 06:50 PM
What are your opinions on ToB?

We (I) don't really make use of it. Aside from someone randomly 'dipping' a feat to get a particular manuever to add a cool move to his list, my group steers clear of it. We don't much like the power curve it adds from the start (optimize friendly from the start).

We (my group and I) tend to stick with the 'Core' power level and ignore the Tier system. Wizards/sorcerers don't show off, clerics/druids keep it cool and monks/paladins/fighter/etc are all very useful. We follow the multiclass exp penalty rules, we don't refluff to fit our characters and any prestige classes are up to the DM to include as he will (ie, if its not in a PHB I or II, don't assume you can take it). TL;DR, we stick to RAI, not RAW, and play D&D as a team game. Not everyone's cup of tea but that's why we all love D&D 3.5e, its so customizable! :smallamused:

Me, well, I love to Optimize as a hobby. For that end, I find Tome of Battle very fun and entertaining. I certainly would not use the classes or prestige classes in any of my games. Mechanics may taste good but the flavor/fluff doesn't sit right with me.

AslanCross
2010-11-08, 07:05 PM
People who say "too anime" probably mean "too shounen." The usual anime that airs and succeeds in the West is typically shounen (preteen-to-teen boy demographic): Naruto, Bleach, what have you--and as such causes people to generalize that all anime is shounen. These are of course, characterized by flashy attack names, flashy attacks, and the like.

As others have pointed out, anime is not a genre, but an art form, covering several genres (horror, mecha, action, fantasy, etc) and all demographics (children, shoujo, shounen, seinen).

It can also be argued that European martial arts also have pretty fantastic names, historically: We have stances like "Bastard Cross," "Guarding the Arrow," "Upper Snake," "Position of the Lady," and "True Cross." Attacks like "Wrath Cut," "Murder Blow," and "Squinting Cut" also exist.

These names can be easily substituted for many of the maneuvers in ToB, really.

sonofzeal
2010-11-08, 07:07 PM
In my group....

Absolute newbies start with something with few build choices and a simple mechanic, like Barbarian or perhaps Rogue (neither has any major choices, and Rage and Sneak Attack can both be summarized intuitively). Then, when they have a grasp of the basic mechanics, I prefer to steer them towards ToB. It's fun, it's manageable to learn (easier than Vancian for sure, since you only need to actually worry about 3-4 maneuvers), and it lets them swim with the big fish.

I can make a Fighter that can keep up with their Warblade, but the reverse isn't true. Heck, without handholding, chances are most of their characters are going to reeeeally struggle. With ToB, the worst they can do is still pretty darn competent, and they're not going to break the game by accident either. It's almost the perfect playground for novices in that way.

Keld Denar
2010-11-08, 07:07 PM
These names can be easily substituted for many of the maneuvers in ToB, really.

Thats too much work. Its far easier to just complain! :smallcool:

dsmiles
2010-11-08, 07:09 PM
People who say "too anime" probably mean "too shounen." The usual anime that airs and succeeds in the West is typically shounen (preteen-to-teen boy demographic): Naruto, Bleach, what have you--and as such causes people to generalize that all anime is shounen. These are of course, characterized by flashy attack names, flashy attacks, and the like.

As others have pointed out, anime is not a genre, but an art form, covering several genres (horror, mecha, action, fantasy, etc) and all demographics (children, shoujo, shounen, seinen).

It can also be argued that European martial arts also have pretty fantastic names, historically: We have stances like "Bastard Cross," "Guarding the Arrow," "Upper Snake," "Position of the Lady," and "True Cross." Attacks like "Wrath Cut," "Murder Blow," and "Squinting Cut" also exist.

These names can be easily substituted for many of the maneuvers in ToB, really.

Huh. I think I like the thought of ToB = Anime. I could use it in a Slayers-esque game. Change a few of the names to sound a little sillier, and VOILA! Gourry-Bomb, here I come!

sonofzeal
2010-11-08, 07:10 PM
People who say "too anime" probably mean "too shounen."
People who say "too anime" probably mean "too Action Hero". Seriously, a Warblade has more in common with Xena or Rambo or Conan, than they do with Ichigo or Naruto. And Crusaders are just Paladins with the serial numbers filed off and a massive tuneup under the hood.

Swordsages, admittedly, are rather Eastern in flavour however you cut it. But that's just one class out of three now.

AslanCross
2010-11-08, 07:17 PM
Thats too much work. Its far easier to just complain! :smallcool:

Alas, it is. :smallsigh:


Huh. I think I like the thought of ToB = Anime. I could use it in a Slayers-esque game. Change a few of the names to sound a little sillier, and VOILA! Gourry-Bomb, here I come!

I don't really have a problem with it myself, but that post was addressed to people who do have that problem.


People who say "too anime" probably mean "too Action Hero". Seriously, a Warblade has more in common with Xena or Rambo or Conan, than they do with Ichigo or Naruto. And Crusaders are just Paladins with the serial numbers filed off and a massive tuneup under the hood.

Swordsages, admittedly, are rather Eastern in flavour however you cut it. But that's just one class out of three now.

Ultimately, ToB does admit that it took a lot of inspiration from anime and video games, so the complaint has some merit. And since the Swordsage was designed to be a Monk fix, and the Monk has Eastern flavor, you're absolutely right.

Of course, Eastern does not mean anime, just as martial arts does not mean China/Japan. India and Southeast Asian countries all have very rich martial arts traditions.

I guess what Keld said applies here. Too much effort to look beyond cliches and stereotypes.

tyckspoon
2010-11-08, 08:48 PM
Ultimately, ToB does admit that it took a lot of inspiration from anime and video games, so the complaint has some merit.


Sure, why not? They're the most broadly familiar source of martially-based characters doing awesome and impressive things. They could just as well have said they're based on "myth and legend from cultures around the world" and it would have had the same result.. actually, that would be an accurate representation of "anime and video games" as a source as well. Stuff don't have to be old to be myth.

AslanCross
2010-11-08, 09:42 PM
Sure, why not? They're the most broadly familiar source of martially-based characters doing awesome and impressive things. They could just as well have said they're based on "myth and legend from cultures around the world" and it would have had the same result.. actually, that would be an accurate representation of "anime and video games" as a source as well. Stuff don't have to be old to be myth.

I couldn't have said it better.

Master Thrower
2010-11-08, 09:43 PM
personally my DM, banned ToB. He saw stuff like bloodstorm blade, and just taking the class all your weapons can get the returning property, it seems like magic, I bounce my battle axe off you into that other guy, then back to me.

Boci
2010-11-08, 09:51 PM
personally my DM, banned ToB. He saw stuff like bloodstorm blade, and just taking the class all your weapons can get the returning property, it seems like magic, I bounce my battle axe off you into that other guy, then back to me.

So don't use that PrC? Just stick to a melee warblade and don't take lightening throw. Or make the BB's abilities Su.

ffone
2010-11-08, 10:16 PM
Also, re: ToB and anime (or 'shonen' apparently), and my flavor dislike of it generally...the names, oh gods, the names. Raging Mongoose. Time Stands Still. Island of Blades.

Many of the names rub me the wrong way, a la 'look at me, I'm awesome', and awkwardly remind of the anime where the guy will brag about the Eight Ultimtae Drunk Monkeys move he's about to unleash, and then do so, amidst a line-blur of the surrounding cartoon environment.

Sure, you could rename them all in-character, but that's a lot of work, and you'll still be using the names OOC and it just feels so...cheesy. It's a personal opinion, but then, so's one RPG system or hobby vs another.

Relevant trope perhaps: Awesome McCoolname? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitle73be69nd


Sure, why not? They're the most broadly familiar source of martially-based characters doing awesome and impressive things. They could just as well have said they're based on "myth and legend from cultures around the world" and it would have had the same result.. actually, that would be an accurate representation of "anime and video games" as a source as well. Stuff don't have to be old to be myth.

It's just semantics. You could call shonen anime shows 'new myths and legends', and they'd still be equally annoying to some people.

Boci
2010-11-08, 10:23 PM
Many of the names rub me the wrong way, a la 'look at me, I'm awesome',

Probably because that is assumed to be the point of heroic fantasy, which is the default game type of D&D.


Sure, you could rename them all in-character, but that's a lot of work, and you'll still be using the names OOC and it just feels so...cheesy. It's a personal opinion, but then, so's one RPG system or hobby vs another.

Why do even need names?

OOC: I attack, gaining a plus 4 bonus to hit, deal an extra 10d6 damage, my AC is now 4 less for one round. Then IC just briefly describe your character attacking, lowering his defenses in the process.

Amphetryon
2010-11-08, 10:24 PM
Use an online translator - or better source - to translate the names into French. Call the maneuvers Savate. Done. No more 'Weabo Fytan Magic'; now you've grounded it in European history and culture.

Boci
2010-11-08, 10:31 PM
Use an online translator - or better source - to translate the names into French. Call the maneuvers Savate. Done. No more 'Weabo Fytan Magic'; now you've grounded it in European history and culture.

You could use a different language for each school. Maybe something along the lines of:

Latin for Devoted Spirit.

French for Diamond Mind.

German for Iron Heart.

Some Scandanavian for Stone Dragon.

Hungarian for Tiger Claw.

Italien for White Raven.

Works best in Britain where chances are no one speaks the language in question and will therefor be oblivious to any choppy translations. Shouldn't be that hard. I speak Hungarian and will gladly post how to phonetically say each maneuver from the Tiger Claw Discipline.

ffone
2010-11-08, 10:37 PM
Probably because that is assumed to be the point of heroic fantasy, which is the default game type of D&D.

I'm trying to picture Conan or Aragorn calling the manuever he just did Raging Mongoose, and somehow it's just not happening.

(Also, to me, having to Awesome McCoolname your tactics feels less heroic).



Why do even need names?

OOC: I attack, gaining a plus 4 bonus to hit, deal an extra 10d6 damage, my AC is now 4 less for one round. Then IC just briefly describe your character attacking, lowering his defenses in the process.

You need names because it's Vancian. Same reasons spells needs names. The ToB character has discretely packaged abilities (some of which do very distinct things like summon tiny fire elementals to help you flank), and other ToB characters might have the same abilities. They'd naturally have a jargon for communicating with other, especially mentor-to-mentee, and even if your guy is the only ToB character in the game world, he'd want to develop a succinct way of discussing tactics with his pals. ("Iron Heart Surge" is less cumbersome than saying "That ability I have to ignore almost any status effect I please" every time).



You could use a different language for each school. Maybe something along the lines of:

Latin for Devoted Spirit.

French for Diamond Mind.

German for Iron Heart.

Some Scandanavian for Stone Dragon.

Hungarian for Tiger Claw.

Italien for White Raven.

Works best in Britain where chances are no one speaks the language in question and will therefor be oblivious to any choppy translations. Shouldn't be that hard. I speak Hungarian and will gladly post how to phonetically say each maneuver from the Tiger Claw Discipline.

Like I said - a lot of work.

Also, words in languages you don't know are harder to remember the names and exact spellings of. Your group would need to have the reference list around, constantly be translating, and the net result would be you'd end up spending more time thinking about the annoying names you were trying to get rid of.

Boci
2010-11-08, 10:42 PM
You need names because it's Vancian. Same reasons spells needs names. The ToB character has discretely packaged abilities (some of which do very distinct things like summon tiny fire elementals to help you flank), and other ToB characters might have the same abilities. They'd naturally have a jargon for communicating with other, and even if your guy is the only ToB character in the game world, he'd want to develop a succinct way of discussing tactics with his pals. ("Iron Heart Surge" is less cumbersome than saying "That ability I have to ignore almost any status effect I please" every time).

But why do you need to say the name. If they bother you just say the result. The DM often does this with enemy spell casters.


Like I said - a lot of work.

You type some phrases into an online translator and note what it gives you.


Also, words in languages you don't know are harder to remember the names and exact spellings of. Your group would need to have the reference list around, constantly be translating, and the net result would be you'd end up spending more time thinking about the annoying names you were trying to get rid of.

I generally manage with the other made up names I encounter in games.

ffone
2010-11-08, 10:43 PM
But why do you need to say the name. If they bother you just say the result. The DM often does this with enemy spell casters.

Again, because in-character, it's ridiculous that at wizard colleges they'd go around saying "...that 20 foot radius sphere of fire we evoke". They'd have a name. Like Fireball.

And no matter how it gets refluffed, OOC we'll constantly have to reference and read the original names. And they just really annoy me. It's a personal thing, same as dispreferring d20 Modern.

Boci
2010-11-08, 10:48 PM
Again, because in-character, it's ridiculous that at wizard colleges they go around saying "...that 20 foot radius sphere of fire we evoke". They'd have a name. Like Fireball.

Next time you play a wizard count how many times you actually need to say the specific names of the spells compared to how many times briefly symerizing what they do will suffice "I have a spell that will allow us to slip past" "I have a spell that will scatter them". You'll find out than unless the wizard wants to say the names of his spells he will hardly need to do so. Its mostly the player saying which spell they cast to the Dm and other players.



And no matter how it gets refluffed, OOC we'll constantly have to reference and read the original names. And they just really annoy me. It's a personal thing, same as dispreferring d20 Modern.

No you don't. DM's rarely tell you the spell the enemy mage cast without a spellcraft check, he just says the results.

ffone
2010-11-08, 11:19 PM
Next time you play a wizard count how many times you actually need to say the specific names of the spells compared to how many times briefly symerizing what they do will suffice "I have a spell that will allow us to slip past" "I have a spell that will scatter them". You'll find out than unless the wizard wants to say the names of his spells he will hardly need to do so. Its mostly the player saying which spell they cast to the Dm and other players.



*Verisimilitude*. You can dance around saying the names, but they're there, in the game world, and around the table. People definitely do do the same thing with spell names (esp. when speaking in-character to PCs who know no magic), but the name is still known around the table - and so to me, still annoying.

For me, the game world is more than the encounter. The wizard PC may indeed never name his spells to his allies, but surely, they *have* names within the world.

And like I said before, trying hard to dance around using the names makes them that much more mentally conspicuous, and would be at least as annoying if not more (knowing I'm doing extra work b/c of the cheesy names like Burping Butterfly Stance).



No you don't. DM's rarely tell you the spell the enemy mage cast without a spellcraft check, he just says the results.

That's just for NPCs. And it reminds me of another minor gripe about the Vancian Not-Magic of ToB; it gets to avoid being Spellcrafted the way a gish (or other arcane or divine caster) can be.

(This'll be my last post, we're both repeating ourselves now, and understandably so - like I said, liking or disliking the Awesome McCoolname nomenclature is a personal style.)

Boci
2010-11-08, 11:26 PM
*Verisimilitude*. You can dance around saying the names, but they're there, in the game world

I don't dance around names, I don't use them in game. Explaining their effect is more universially understood.


For me, the game world is more than the encounter. The wizard PC may indeed never name his spells to his allies, but surely, they *have* names within the world.

They do have names, and the player can cross that bridge when he comes to it if coming up with names is a problematic for them.


That's just for NPCs.

Yes but the PCs can do the same. Or you can just live with the annoyance of saying the names/not use ToB.


And it reminds me of another minor gripe about the Vancian Not-Magic of ToB; it gets to avoid being Spellcrafted the way a gish (or other arcane or divine caster) can be.

Thats because maneuvers aren't that versatile. He hit you and did damage + a temporary debuff. He blocked/weakened your attack. You can find out most of the information you need to know from the result. And if you really want to know the details, there's martial lore.


(This'll be my last post, we're both repeating ourselves now, and understandably so - like I said, liking or disliking the Awesome McCoolname nomenclature is a personal style.)

I just find it ironic that you have no problem imagining yourself as a hero in a fantasy land, but the name of some maneuvers really gets to you.

Keld Denar
2010-11-08, 11:30 PM
Sure, you could rename them all in-character, but that's a lot of work


Thats too much work. Its far easier to just complain! :smallcool:

I ah...rest my case?

dsmiles
2010-11-09, 05:59 AM
Sure, you could rename them all in-character, but that's a lot of work, and you'll still be using the names OOC and it just feels so...cheesy.

Just a thought. Using this system (http://tashian.com/multibabel/),

Iron Heart Surge
becomes the infinitely more hilarious:

Sudden Increase of the Interchange of the Iron

And,

Charging Minotaur
becomes:

Fullness of Minotauro
(Is it just me or does that one sound a little dirty? :smalltongue:)

AslanCross
2010-11-09, 06:17 AM
Girallon Windmill Death Rip: Rift of death of the pinwheel of Girallon

Shounen anime name is shounen.

Ancient Mountain Hammer: Old hammer of Laoshan
...if I'm not mistaken, "Laoshan" actually means "Old mountain." So...the old hammer of the old mountain.

Mountain Tombstone Stike: Attacks of the Shan Mubei
wut

Greenish
2010-11-09, 06:28 AM
Just a thought. Using this system (http://tashian.com/multibabel/)Great, I was going to do something useful today.

Time is always interrupted!

pjackson
2010-11-09, 06:30 AM
stuff like bloodstorm blade, and just taking the class all your weapons can get the returning property, it seems like magic,

That is hardly a fault given that is says it a magic system on the cover.
It being magic is the main problem I have with it.
It adds class that are more powerful than the "mundane" martial classes with more powerful ones whose excuse for their flashy powers is that it is a form of magic.
It does add new types of characters you can play, but they are not ones that appeal to me, and some of the mechanics I strongly dislike (attacks causing healing, random access to abilities for a class that does not have to be chaotic).
But for me it does almost nothing to help with the problem of the "mundane" martial classes being weak other than adding more more powerful alternatives.
The feats that let such classes get access to some maneuvers/stances are the exception, and they do show that it is possible to add reasonably powerful feats without breaking the game.

faceroll
2010-11-09, 06:41 AM
So don't use that PrC? Just stick to a melee warblade and don't take lightening throw. Or make the BB's abilities Su.

Why is ToB the only source book where this is an acceptable fallacy? I mean, the monk's a fine class as long as you don't play it. Or implement some simple fixes. Oh, no, that never goes over well.

Boci
2010-11-09, 07:19 AM
Why is ToB the only source book where this is an acceptable fallacy?

The fallacy doesn't apply because I'm not claiming its not a problem, I'm saying "If you find X a problem, then can't you just fix it with this 1 really simple step?" If you fall over and someone tells you to get up do you get up or start yelling the Oberoni Fallacy?


I mean, the monk's a fine class as long as you don't play it.

You certainly won't notice the problems of the monk class if no one plays it.


Or implement some simple fixes.

Okay: my suggested fix for the BB problem: change returning attacks, lightning ricochet and blood wind ricochet from Ex to Su. Now make a monk fix that simple that satisfies all the problems expressed with the class.


That is hardly a fault given that is says it a magic system on the cover.

Its says secret magic of steel, which means absolutly nothing.



It being magic is the main problem I have with it.

Shame there aren't loads of maneuvers that aren't magical. Oh wait...



It adds class that are more powerful than the "mundane" martial classes with more powerful ones whose excuse for their flashy powers is that it is a form of magic.

Mundane classes like the monk and paladin?



But for me it does almost nothing to help with the problem of the "mundane" martial classes being weak other than adding more more powerful alternatives.

Probably because by then WotC felt they had done everything they could for core melee with feats, PrC and ACF and decided that if they hadn't suceeded by then than an another stab at it wasn't going to make any difference so they figured they may as well try something new.

Ormur
2010-11-09, 07:20 AM
Why is ToB the only source book where this is an acceptable fallacy? I mean, the monk's a fine class as long as you don't play it. Or implement some simple fixes. Oh, no, that never goes over well.

Arguably because most complaints over ToB aren't mechanical but have to do with the flavour (such as it being magical, anime etc).

People that complain about having to fix Core do so because the monk sucks. That the class has Su abilities and Asian flavour is not usually the biggest objection.

You could claim the Oberoni Fallacy covered objectively flawed mechanics but not subjective flavour.

ToB of course has flawed mechanics too but not more so than the rest of 3,5 and that's rarely the reason people cite for disliking it.

Amphetryon
2010-11-09, 07:35 AM
But for me it does almost nothing to help with the problem of the "mundane" martial classes being weak other than adding more more powerful alternatives.What other sort of help were you hoping for, besides more powerful alternatives? :smallconfused:

lesser_minion
2010-11-09, 07:54 AM
Why is ToB the only source book where this is an acceptable fallacy? I mean, the monk's a fine class as long as you don't play it. Or implement some simple fixes. Oh, no, that never goes over well.

If you don't use a class, then it can't cause problems in play. Nobody's claimed that not playing the class will magically remove all of its problems.

The Oberoni fallacy is not a magic talisman for disallowing all discussion on how to resolve a problem. Don't try to use it as one.

true_shinken
2010-11-09, 08:39 AM
ike I said, liking or disliking the Awesome McCoolname nomenclature is a personal style.
I take it you don't take feats like Leap of the Heavens, Awesome Blow, Sun School (Inexorable Progres of Dawn!), Bloospiked Charger, never use the monk's Abundant Step and never casts Apocalypse from the Sky, Modernkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Blade Thirst, Blade Storm and Heartripper.
The 'awesome naming' is not part of ToB - it's part of 3.5 itself. 4e is even better worst at this.
EDIT: Can't believe I forgot Born of Three Thunders.

dsmiles
2010-11-09, 08:39 AM
Great, I was going to do something useful today.

Time is always interrupted!

I played with that page for about two hours when I first found it. It took me less time than that to get bored with Cleverbot (http://cleverbot.com/).

Gametime
2010-11-09, 11:49 AM
Also, re: ToB and anime (or 'shonen' apparently), and my flavor dislike of it generally...the names, oh gods, the names. Raging Mongoose. Time Stands Still. Island of Blades.

Many of the names rub me the wrong way, a la 'look at me, I'm awesome', and awkwardly remind of the anime where the guy will brag about the Eight Ultimtae Drunk Monkeys move he's about to unleash, and then do so, amidst a line-blur of the surrounding cartoon environment.



It's interesting to me that those names bother you, but spell names like Divine Power and Righteous Might don't. (Which isn't to say that you are "wrong" for feeling that way, obviously, just that's it's interesting.)


I'm trying to picture Conan or Aragorn calling the manuever he just did Raging Mongoose, and somehow it's just not happening.

(Also, to me, having to Awesome McCoolname your tactics feels less heroic).



That's just because there's only one name for all of Conan's maneuvers: "CROOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!"


Why is ToB the only source book where this is an acceptable fallacy? I mean, the monk's a fine class as long as you don't play it. Or implement some simple fixes. Oh, no, that never goes over well.

Because the statement wasn't about the class, but about the book. It's outrageous to denounce the entirety of ToB for a single prestige class. (There are other reasons to not like the book as a whole; not liking it because of one piece of material is an overreaction, at the least.)

In contrast, people don't like the Player's Handbook for lots of reasons, but I don't think I've ever seen someone say "The Player's Handbook is a bad book because the monk is in it and only for that reason."

Kylarra
2010-11-09, 11:55 AM
Okay: my suggested fix for the BB problem: change returning attacks, lightning ricochet and blood wind ricochet from Ex to Su. Now make a monk fix that simple that satisfies all the problems expressed with the class.Give it PsiWar progression. :smalltongue:

Psyren
2010-11-09, 12:24 PM
Give it PsiWar progression. :smalltongue:

Also, throw in the Zerth Cenobite abilities for free.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-09, 12:28 PM
Also, throw in the Zerth Cenobite abilities for free.

Because being able to punch people into the future has to be one of the coolest PrC abilities out there.:smallcool:

Kylarra
2010-11-09, 12:41 PM
Because being able to punch people into the future has to be one of the coolest PrC abilities out there.:smallcool:I can't argue with this statement. It must be done!

Optimator
2010-11-09, 03:33 PM
The ToB:BoNS is a phenomenal addition to D&D. It is fun, flavorful, useful, and allows a very large swath of archetypes, themes, and builds to be not only possible but very playable. Ninja? Knight? Samurai? Swashbuckler? Berserker? Kung Fu Master? Mystic Kung Fu Master? All doable.

Susano-wo
2010-11-09, 04:25 PM
First off, I'm a huge ToB fanboy. I love it to death.

The names doen't bug me, but I giggle everytime I hear this: demon spirit...Kyuutouryuu: Asura (http://www.cloudmanga.com/One_Piece/417/#17), so maybe I'm in a bad position to judge >.>

Still, in our games, spell names and 9 swords names rarely come up in character...but I guess YMMV.

REally, though, FFone, are you are saying that if the names were more mundane (like, lets say they actually took fencing names, or other combat technique names, or what have you), you would be able to be ok with ToB?
What if someone did the aforementioned language swap, would that be ok?
(also, I love the idea of using different languages for the different schools)

In the end: you don't like it? Then you don't like it. But I think a lot of what people are boggling over is that your objections seem to ring hollow.

(incidentally, I wish they hadn't refered to it as blade magic..and the tech scrolls are just silly...but I guess no more silly than manuals of [stat], so as long as they were trated like that, and not a common thing that initiators[wish they had come up with a better term for that, too:smallsigh:] do to boost their maneuvers known, it would be ok for me)




We (my group and I) tend to stick with the 'Core' power level and ignore the Tier system. Wizards/sorcerers don't show off, clerics/druids keep it cool {snip}

Not saying there is anything wrong with what you are doing, but it sounds like you are usuing the tier system (or an intuitive equivilant) for one of its express purposes...to help keep everyone having fun and contributing. The fact that your "big 5" players know that they need to 'keep it cool, and not show off/keep it cool' indicates knowledge and usage of what the tier system represents :smallsmile:

and because I just can't shut up...I think ToB=anime is a problematic idea, though ToB can give an anime feel is not. It might be splitting hairs, but I think its important. Because the former perception is one of the big two turnoffs for ToB, from what detractors have expresssed. Take that away, and you leave only ToB is magic, which can be argued against with facts :smallbiggrin:, and "I don't like the power Boost" which is simply a personal style choice

Gensh
2010-11-09, 05:18 PM
Wall of text ahoy~

I think that a lot of the problem when people argue about ToB = anime (other than refusing to admit you're wrong :smalltongue:) is that they can't quite decide exactly what they're trying to say. Think of it this way, Shadow of the Colossus, if made into a television series, would be shounen anime (maybe seinen). Would it be DBZ clone #42? No; in fact, it would be among the most not-anime shows out there at this point, despite actually being anime. That's what a lot of people expect D&D to look like - you're not hitting something so hard the earth under their feet crack; you're too busy hanging onto this giant thing for dear life.

Thing is, though, that ToB was obviously designed with the growing popularity of "anime" in mind, so even the mostly mundane maneuvers are still...er...fantastic. That's obviously not a bad thing, but if you *are* trying for a more traditional fantasy, then the amount of power will definitely cause setting issues, no matter how you refluff it. I know the argument where some of the maneuvers aren't actually anything special, and I've seen movies and read comics, both eastern and western, where those sorts of things were passed as realistic. And they were perfectly fine in those cases, but they don't belong in the traditional D&D group that's deluded into thinking its a gritty game. They're simply too powerful in comparison to the wizard who thinks fireball is the be-all end-all of spells and whose companions force to keep marching even after he's completely out of prepared spells.

ToB just isn't for what I've seen to be the vast majority of games: IRL, I've only ever played with one other player who was even remotely *competent*, so I know I'm playing on the low end of the spectrum of system mastery, but nevertheless, a lot of people here forget they're on the high end. To illustrate the point, my last rogue character died, it turned out, because the cleric only prepared one cure light wounds that day. First of all, he was the only healer in the party, so everyone immediately WTFed; second, he didn't even know that he could spontaneously convert. You can see how ToB would easily wreck such a game (and it has in the past). Again, I'm playing on the low end of things, but by the same token, one should take into account all sorts of situations in these debates, not just games where everyone at least has a decent amount of common sense - Deadpool was right when he said it was a superpower :smallwink:.

Susano-wo
2010-11-09, 05:30 PM
Wall of text ahoy~

I think that a lot of the problem when people argue about ToB = anime (other than refusing to admit you're wrong :smalltongue:) is that they can't quite decide exactly what they're trying to say. Think of it this way, Shadow of the Colossus, if made into a television series, would be shounen anime (maybe seinen). Would it be DBZ clone #42? No; in fact, it would be among the most not-anime shows out there at this point, despite actually being anime. That's what a lot of people expect D&D to look like - you're not hitting something so hard the earth under their feet crack; you're too busy hanging onto this giant thing for dear life.

Yes, anime is waaay too broad of a grouping. Even Shounen anime is too broad. Really, ToB is great for those shounen fighting anime, ala Bleach, One piece, etc (as great as d20 can be), not so much for, say, Original MS Gundam). There is a venn diagram, where fantastical non anime, and fantastical anime meet. It seems that that intersection is where people feel ToB is at, andthats what seems to bother people.



{snip}, my last rogue character died, it turned out, because the cleric only prepared one cure light wounds that day. First of all, he was the only healer in the party, so everyone immediately WTFed; second, he didn't even know that he could spontaneously convert. You can see how ToB would easily wreck such a game (and it has in the past). Again, I'm playing on the low end of things, but by the same token, one should take into account all sorts of situations in these debates, not just games where everyone at least has a decent amount of common sense - Deadpool was right when he said it was a superpower :smallwink:.
:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:
yes, that is defintiely not remotely competant. I don't think Tob is going to be your issue if hte cleric doesn't understand his class features...>.> (but I do get your point, and for very low op games, ToB is just too powerful, do to the high Op Floor it has)

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-09, 05:32 PM
Fun fact: "Shounen" means "for little boys".

It doesn't mean "action".

Mkay? Mkay!

Susano-wo
2010-11-09, 05:57 PM
Fun fact: "Shounen" means "for little boys".

It doesn't mean "action".

Mkay? Mkay!

Fun fact. Shounen means boy.:smallcool: Shounen anime is often aimed at younger audiences than, say, Seinen, but its hardly just made for 'little boys.'
Another fun fact. Shounen series are 90% action. At least. I'm traying to think of a series that is classified as SHounen (and I know its not necessarily a cut and dry division) that is not primarily action based...And I can't Granted, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of what is out there, but still...
:smallbiggrin:
EDIT: wait, Bakuman is published by Shounen jump and is not action. SO I can think of one, two if Death Note counts...I guess so. THough Jump is a publishng co, not necessarily a style category

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-09, 05:59 PM
Yes I know shounen is literally "boy". In this context, it means "anime aimed at boys".

Gametime
2010-11-09, 06:03 PM
Wikipedia claims Death Note is shounen, so that's at least one well-known anime that fits the "shounen" category but not the "action" category (although it does still fit the crazy-over-the-top category).

Optimator
2010-11-09, 06:10 PM
Here's my take on the whole Amine D&D ToB thing.

In D&D, any character above level (the level is highly debatable) ~7 is beyond what we consider a normal, real human capable of. CHaracters who are level 12, 15, 18, they all have what would appear to be a supernatural amount of skill. Even if they are a vanilla Fighter, they would look like earth-shattering badasses with skill and poise beyond that of mortal men. Like Neo or Ip Man something.

This hyper-competence is really the norm for mid to high level characters in D&D, but you don't really see or feel it while playing, for the most part. Animation in one of the few mediums where it is easy and affordable to have stories take place where these feats are accomplished. See what I'm getting at? Animes with powerful flamboyant fighters attacking super-monsters reflect what D&D already is, in a sense.

Susano-wo
2010-11-09, 06:15 PM
Yes I know shounen is literally "boy". In this context, it means "anime aimed at boys".

I was responding to what I perceived as a snarky comment with snark. I also felt that the adjective 'little' was a bit insulting, and innacurate. The general target spot is teenagers, which is gnerally not 'little boys.'

And people are using SHounen as a synonym for action, because practically all Shounen anime/manga has a heavy action element.

Unless you were just interjecting the fact in there so that people didn't get the wrong idea about the technical definition of Shounen...:smallannoyed:

Which I can actually totally understand, if that's the case

@gametime: yeah, I remembered that one and edited it in.

true_shinken
2010-11-09, 06:20 PM
Yes I know shounen is literally "boy". In this context, it means "anime aimed at boys".

The average age of the Shounen Jump reader is 16, so 'little boy' is obviously an exaggeration on your part.

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-09, 06:24 PM
Legally, "shounen" means "fifteen or younger". So...

Shounen Jump is badly marketed?

Susano-wo
2010-11-09, 06:31 PM
From the Wikipedias

"According to Japanese law, the term "shonen" refers to "a person from the time they enter elementary school until the time they are 15 years of age" [1], and "Any person who has not reached the age of 15 years" (Juvenile Law (少年法 Shonen Hō?), Article 2.1). In the realm of education and culture, this is the period of compulsory education. While the term "shonen" can refer to both young males and young females, the generally accepted term for young females is shōjo."

<--wishes there was an eyeroll smiley...:smallbiggrin:

true_shinken
2010-11-09, 06:39 PM
From the Wikipedias


<--wishes there was an eyeroll smiley...:smallbiggrin:

少年 【しょうねん】 (n) boys, juveniles, (P)
Also wish there was eyeroll smiley.
Legal definition is one thing, common use is another thing.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 06:43 PM
Death Note has plenty of action. Action != Martial Arts.

Compare the pacing of Death Note to a show like, say, Witch Hunter Robin :smallyuk:

true_shinken
2010-11-09, 06:45 PM
Death Note has plenty of action. Action != Martial Arts.

Compare the pacing of Death Note to a show like, say, Witch Hunter Robin :smallyuk:

Witch Hunter Robin is an action show complete with 'witch of the week'.
Just because it is deep it does not mean it's not action.

Eldonauran
2010-11-09, 07:05 PM
Not saying there is anything wrong with what you are doing, but it sounds like you are usuing the tier system (or an intuitive equivilant) for one of its express purposes...to help keep everyone having fun and contributing. The fact that your "big 5" players know that they need to 'keep it cool, and not show off/keep it cool' indicates knowledge and usage of what the tier system represents

Well, I am very familiar with the Tier system, as my hobby is optimizing and I frequent this board often. What I meant by my previous post was that the power difference between the classes means very little to us and never comes up in gameplay.

Call it a different gaming style, but I could never understand the reasoning for wanting to do everything by yourself and being better at it than everyone else. It just does not sound 'heoric' in a medival fantasy setting. To me, it sounds more like catering to egos (if I put it bluntly). I've always played D&D as a team game, where the other characters are used to shore up each other defenses, not optimize solely to perform one or more roles that the classes are designed for.

I'm just glad we all have different definitions of what is fun. Awfully boring without it.

true_shinken
2010-11-09, 07:09 PM
I'm just glad we all have different definitions of what is fun. Awfully boring without it.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2658/3700106719_71969b934d.jpg
Great wisdom I sense in this one.

Gametime
2010-11-09, 07:14 PM
Death Note has plenty of action. Action != Martial Arts.

Compare the pacing of Death Note to a show like, say, Witch Hunter Robin :smallyuk:

If you mean "action" in the sense of dramatic action, then yes, it does. Contextually, we're pretty clearly referring to action as combat, of which Death Note has very little.

Suspense and drama are a kind of action, but not the kind evoked in ToB, or in your typical shounen anime.

true_shinken
2010-11-09, 07:17 PM
If you mean "action" in the sense of dramatic action, then yes, it does. Contextually, we're pretty clearly referring to action as combat, of which Death Note has very little.

Suspense and drama are a kind of action, but not the kind evoked in ToB, or in your typical shounen anime.

Incorrect. Most shounen anime are focused on sports, not battle.

Susano-wo
2010-11-09, 07:25 PM
I think action is hjard to define, but Death Note has relatively little of it.(on the other hand WHR's Witch of the day means that though the fights are less drawn out than in an 'action' anime, there is a fight almost every episode, including one military raid:smallamused:) Lots of suspense, tnsion (more in first half, I think, but oh well), lots of over the top Drama...not so much action, really

And @Eldonauran. I don't think our definitions of fun are necessarily that different. THough it'd be fun to play in God Mode once in a while, I think, I generally like having weaknesses and strengths, mechanically speaking, and I go with Character over mechaincs any say of the week, really. (hell, I've not once even played a full wizard, much less a broken one--I tend to like Gish's more. God Bless Elder Scrolls!:smallamused:--and I played a Storm Lord Cleric, also not exactly the most optimum thing I could do, but it fit his character.) I was just saying that it seemed like you were, either consciously or not consciously using the tier system. You seem to be using it by knowing that wizards can clerics can get out of hand, but no one wants that, so they don't.
IF that's not the case then cool--its not like it central to my sense of well being that that be the case:smallbiggrin:

Thrawn183
2010-11-09, 08:06 PM
I can't believe I'm going to do this, but I'm going to reference Gia. Basically his point was that a high level non-caster is mounted on a magical flying creature, shooting arrows with absurd speed/precision, capable of seeing invisible creatures, blinking through walls etc. etc.

When approached from this perspective, ToB is no longer in any way over the top.

Gametime
2010-11-09, 08:07 PM
Incorrect. Most shounen anime are focused on sports, not battle.

Sports are very similar to battles in terms of the kind of action that characterizes them; intense physical activity, clearly delineated sides, dramatic "hits," etc. I stand by my point.

For what it's worth, though, since we were originally talking about people calling ToB "too anime," I think it's fair to assume we were discussing the biases present in people not familiar with the depth of the medium. The most commonly known animes (in America, at least) are of the shounen variety and revolve around fighting; anyone who still uses phrases like "too anime" is likely thinking of shounen programs that revolve heavily around combat.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 08:08 PM
Death Note very much fits the mold of a sport. Specifically, speed chess.

But I digress...

Susano-wo
2010-11-09, 08:10 PM
Death Note very much fits the mold of a sport. Specifically, speed chess.

But I digress...

Its also a prominent gambling manga. I mean, there's roulette every issue.....

true_shinken
2010-11-09, 08:11 PM
The most commonly known animes (in America, at least) are of the shounen variety and revolve around fighting; anyone who still uses phrases like "too anime" is likely thinking of shounen programs that revolve heavily around combat.

You are correct, I believe.
Oddly enough, here in Brazil we get more anime for children (like Hamtaro, for example) than action-filled shounen.

Gametime
2010-11-09, 08:14 PM
Death Note very much fits the mold of a sport. Specifically, speed chess.

But I digress...

More like blindfolded speed chess. :smalltongue:

Death Note is an interesting case, because the pacing is very fast once the plot gets going but there's still very little tangible action. It's a very dynamic show, but in a different way than shows based on more physical activity.

olentu
2010-11-10, 01:33 AM
I can't believe I'm going to do this, but I'm going to reference Gia. Basically his point was that a high level non-caster is mounted on a magical flying creature, shooting arrows with absurd speed/precision, capable of seeing invisible creatures, blinking through walls etc. etc.

When approached from this perspective, ToB is no longer in any way over the top.

Well it depends. Say 80+% of that is magic items and such rather then the character actually being any good at stuff. Having a non-caster do fancy things like that without relying on magic items could still be a problem.

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 07:35 AM
Well it depends. Say 80+% of that is magic items and such rather then the character actually being any good at stuff. Having a non-caster do fancy things like that without relying on magic items could still be a problem.
Define "non-caster". Totemist? Binder? Warlock? Heck, the Monk gets objectively supernatural stuff. Is "Shadow Jaunt" any more problematic than "Abundant Step"?

Esser-Z
2010-11-10, 09:44 AM
Define "non-caster". Totemist? Binder? Warlock? Heck, the Monk gets objectively supernatural stuff. Is "Shadow Jaunt" any more problematic than "Abundant Step"?
Well, by RAW Shadow Jaunt isn't supernatural... :smallwink:

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 11:08 AM
Well, by RAW Shadow Jaunt isn't supernatural... :smallwink:
Neither is Improved Evasion, but it'll let you survive Ground Zero of a nuclear blast, even without a fridge!

Greenish
2010-11-10, 11:16 AM
Neither is Improved Evasion, but it'll let you survive Ground Zero of a nuclear blast, even without a fridge!Meh, just duck and cover, how hard can that be?

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 11:20 AM
Meh, just duck and cover, how hard can that be?
I don't know, ask this guy (http://mastersofmedia.hum.uva.nl/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/hiroshima-shadow-2.png).

faceroll
2010-11-10, 12:02 PM
Re: Too anime
Sorry to insult all you japanimation fans with my lack of knowledge of the "depth of the medium".

What I meant by anime (and most other people who don't like anime in their D&D, I reckon) is the "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" stuff that gets turned up to eleven, which the ToB is explicitly based on. Some people just aren't into all the screaming and twirling. I know my DM is more of a fan of really good fighters in a historical sense. The Leper King of Jerusalem broke Saladin's siege by getting really righteously angry and knowing how to stab face, not by jumping 20 feet in the air to do 2x damage. Doing a backflip in combat is a great way to die.

I know there are a bunch of arguments against this involving wizards and stuff, but those just aren't going to change my opinion, any more than you could convince me to like pickles. It's a preference thing. Not a fan of the twirling.


The fallacy doesn't apply because I'm not claiming its not a problem, I'm saying "If you find X a problem, then can't you just fix it with this 1 really simple step?" If you fall over and someone tells you to get up do you get up or start yelling the Oberoni Fallacy?

Yet that doesn't make the problem any less a problem, does it? The OP asked what my opinion on ToB was, I replied "other than these problems, I really like it."

So, thanks for telling me how to fix it?


You could claim the Oberoni Fallacy covered objectively flawed mechanics but not subjective flavour.

You could, but the same logical behind the Oberoni "Fallacy" (the real logical fallacy is denying the antecedent) is also the same logical fallacy behind "well, you can just fix the fluff." It's the same level of logical fail as anyone who says monks are fine because they have some house rules that make them competent.

Flavor is fine because you can change it.
Mechanics are fine because you can change them.

Same logical fallacy in the two.


The Oberoni fallacy is not a magic talisman for disallowing all discussion on how to resolve a problem. Don't try to use it as one.

But this wasn't a discussion of "how to resolve a problem." This was me saying "I have this problem" and then about a half dozen people replying "you can fix that problem, therefore it's not really a problem with this perfect, perfect book. Don't you ever hurt precious that way again."


Because the statement wasn't about the class, but about the book. It's outrageous to denounce the entirety of ToB for a single prestige class. (There are other reasons to not like the book as a whole; not liking it because of one piece of material is an overreaction, at the least.)

Well then, it's a good thing I haven't been making that argument.


Neither is Improved Evasion, but it'll let you survive Ground Zero of a nuclear blast, even without a fridge!

Do nuclear blasts allow saves?

Boci
2010-11-10, 12:11 PM
Doing a backflip in combat is a great way to die.

Like the tumble skill?


Yet that doesn't make the problem any less a problem, does it?

A problem with an easy solution is much better than a problem without one.


The OP asked what my opinion on ToB was, I replied "other than these problems, I really like it."

And you were quoting me responding to someone whose DM banned the whole book because of the BB. And they didn't even say they didn't like the BB, just that its abilities weren't magical.


But this wasn't a discussion of "how to resolve a problem." This was me saying "I have this problem" and then about a half dozen people replying "you can fix that problem, therefore it's not really a problem with this perfect, perfect book. Don't you ever hurt precious that way again."

So hyou point out some problems you have with the book and several people offer solutions for those problems. Rather than saying "Thank I didn't think of that" or "Thank you but I already thought of that" you decide the correct response is "Haha you ToB fanboys suck, lolz"? :smallconfused:

You said certain your problem was that certain maneuvers didn't have the SU tag even though you imagined them to be magical. What I was getting at with my response was "So I'm guessing you house ruled that they do have SU tags to fix the problem you had with the book?"


Do nuclear blasts allow saves?

Most damaging AoEs do. Would probably offer a fort save as well.

Serenity
2010-11-10, 12:35 PM
Re: Too anime
Sorry to insult all you japanimation fans with my lack of knowledge of the "depth of the medium".

What I meant by anime (and most other people who don't like anime in their D&D, I reckon) is the "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" stuff that gets turned up to eleven, which the ToB is explicitly based on. Some people just aren't into all the screaming and twirling. I know my DM is more of a fan of really good fighters in a historical sense. The Leper King of Jerusalem broke Saladin's siege by getting really righteously angry and knowing how to stab face, not by jumping 20 feet in the air to do 2x damage. Doing a backflip in combat is a great way to die.

A) Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is most certainly not anime. Y'know, being not animated and all that.

B) What screaming and twirling? A Barbarian with Whirlwind Attack would likely be 'screaming and twirling'. Not as much of that in ToB. There's a couple 'attack multiple enemies' maneuvers that could be interpreted as twirling, and anyone might scream in combat, it being a noisy and stressful business. But you're probably referring to 'calling your attacks'--and a ToB character no more shouts maneuver names than a barbarian must yell "Adamantium Brooklyn Barbarian Rage!!!".

C) In all seriousness, though, by 'screaming and twirling', you probably refer to 'wire-fu' type combat. Tiger Claw is the only one that touches on that in any significant fashion, and that's not even all there is to the discipline. My personal feeling is that it emulates the pouncing of a savage beast more than real wire-fu action, but obviously, that's a subjective point that we could go back and forth on for a while. But suffice it to say, even within Tiger Claw, you have plenty of non-wire-fu options. Which brings me to my next point...

D) You want 'historically good fighter' without 'screaming and twirling'? Make yourself a Warblade, and focus on the Stone Dragon, Iron Heart, and White Raven disciplines. You get a great leader and a master swordsman, capable of devastating blows. No supernatural stuff involved. Just, as you term it, someone who gets righteously angry and knows how to stab face.

Gametime
2010-11-10, 01:20 PM
What people often mean when they say something is "too anime" is that it is "too wuxia," which is a more fair statement (since, y'know, wuxia is actually a genre as opposed to a medium).

It's still a really, really broad objection, though, since the things that characterize wuxia - heroic journeys, epic combats, etc. - are neither unique to Tome of Battle nor necessarily a part of it. You could make the objection that ToB evokes a wire-fu sort of feel, but it really doesn't in any substantial way. Tiger Claw involves lots of jumping around, sure, but that's one school, and only some of its maneuvers even involve that. I never see anyone complaining about Leap Attack.

(Also, was "depth of the medium" put in quotes because you were quoting or to indicate skepticism? Because I don't think you intended to be dismissive, but the post sort of read that way.)


But you're probably referring to 'calling your attacks'--and a ToB character no more shouts maneuver names than a barbarian must yell "Adamantium Brooklyn Barbarian Rage!!!".

This series of references made me giggle. An internet for you, sir.

true_shinken
2010-11-10, 01:31 PM
Re: Too anime
What I meant by anime (and most other people who don't like anime in their D&D, I reckon) is the "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" stuff that gets turned up to eleven, which the ToB is explicitly based on. Some people just aren't into all the screaming and twirling. I know my DM is more of a fan of really good fighters in a historical sense. The Leper King of Jerusalem broke Saladin's siege by getting really righteously angry and knowing how to stab face, not by jumping 20 feet in the air to do 2x damage. Doing a backflip in combat is a great way to die.

Then your problem is with 3.5 D&D, not with ToB.
Jumping 20 ft in the air for extra damage? That's Leap Attack and/or Battle Jump.
D&D characters above 6th level are not 'really good fighters in a historical sense'. In fact, what does that even mean? D&D is about fantasy. It's not about history. A realistic warrior couldn't do anything about magic, because magic is not real. Any D&D Fighter swinds a magical sword around, kills dragons and suffers wounds that would kill normal people.
I don't really see your point. If you want 'historical fighters', D&D is simply not the game for that.

Greenish
2010-11-10, 01:37 PM
Then your problem is with 3.5 D&D, not with ToB.
Jumping 20 ft in the air for extra damage? That's Leap Attack and/or Battle Jump.
D&D characters above 6th level are not 'really good fighters in a historical sense'. In fact, what does that even mean? D&D is about fantasy. It's not about history. A realistic warrior couldn't do anything about magic, because magic is not real. Any D&D Fighter swinds a magical sword around, kills dragons and suffers wounds that would kill normal people.
I don't really see your point. If you want 'historical fighters', D&D is simply not the game for that.I think he means that historical fighters just have one attack they repeat until the enemy is dead, and never use any manoeuvres or techniques.

Because that'd be totally ripping from japanese animations which are actually chinese live action movies.

[Disclaimer: above post may contain traces of sarcasm or nuts.]

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 01:42 PM
Because that'd be totally ripping from japanese animations which are actually chinese live action movies.

Or fencing. Let's not forget that fencing has names for stances and maneuvers. Oh yeah, and IRL martial arts. They have those, too.

true_shinken
2010-11-10, 01:46 PM
I think he means that historical fighters just have one attack they repeat until the enemy is dead, and never use any manoeuvres or techniques.

Because that'd be totally ripping from japanese animations which are actually chinese live action movies.

[Disclaimer: above post may contain traces of sarcasm or nuts.]

Oh, now it all makes sense. We all know those silly italian fencing schools and brazilian military training centers just teahc the same move all over again year after year. Anything else is considered too anime.
Blame it on Greenish, he started. :smallbiggrin:

faceroll
2010-11-10, 01:55 PM
What people often mean when they say something is "too anime" is that it is "too wuxia," which is a more fair statement (since, y'know, wuxia is actually a genre as opposed to a medium).

It's still a really, really broad objection, though, since the things that characterize wuxia - heroic journeys, epic combats, etc. - are neither unique to Tome of Battle nor necessarily a part of it. You could make the objection that ToB evokes a wire-fu sort of feel, but it really doesn't in any substantial way. Tiger Claw involves lots of jumping around, sure, but that's one school, and only some of its maneuvers even involve that. I never see anyone complaining about Leap Attack.

(Also, was "depth of the medium" put in quotes because you were quoting or to indicate skepticism? Because I don't think you intended to be dismissive, but the post sort of read that way.)

Wuxia, that's a much better term. I find it unfortunate that people get hung up on the semantics. Also, I think I was quoting you. Someone said "depth of the medium", and all I've seen of it is stuff like Dragon Ball Z or berserk where there's a ton of screaming and charging their special moves. It's kind of silly, imo.


Then your problem is with 3.5 D&D, not with ToB.
Jumping 20 ft in the air for extra damage? That's Leap Attack and/or Battle Jump.
D&D characters above 6th level are not 'really good fighters in a historical sense'. In fact, what does that even mean? D&D is about fantasy. It's not about history. A realistic warrior couldn't do anything about magic, because magic is not real. Any D&D Fighter swinds a magical sword around, kills dragons and suffers wounds that would kill normal people.
I don't really see your point. If you want 'historical fighters', D&D is simply not the game for that.

I believe I addressed this. It was in the part you didn't quote.


I think he means that historical fighters just have one attack they repeat until the enemy is dead, and never use any manoeuvres or techniques.

Because that'd be totally ripping from japanese animations which are actually chinese live action movies.

[Disclaimer: above post may contain traces of sarcasm or nuts.]

Sorry if you think I'm insulting your anime, dood. But there's a difference between "stab a guy in the back while you make him think you're going to stab him in the front" and "hit every single creature in a ten foot wide corridor for 60ft before having the weapon magically return to your hand without magic." Which is an iron heart 6 maneuver, I believe.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 01:55 PM
I think he means that historical fighters just have one attack they repeat until the enemy is dead, and never use any manoeuvres or techniques.

Because that'd be totally ripping from japanese animations which are actually chinese live action movies.

[Disclaimer: above post may contain traces of sarcasm or nuts.]

Good thing I'm not allergic :smallbiggrin:

Esser-Z
2010-11-10, 01:59 PM
W
Sorry if you think I'm insulting your anime, dood. But there's a difference between "stab a guy in the back while you make him think you're going to stab him in the front" and "hit every single creature in a ten foot wide corridor for 60ft before having the weapon magically return to your hand without magic." Which is an iron heart 6 maneuver, I believe.

One maneuver. Which you don't have to take.

So how about 'hit two guys at once' or 'hit hard' or 'block attack'? All maneuvers.

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 02:02 PM
Sorry if you think I'm insulting your anime, dood. But there's a difference between "stab a guy in the back while you make him think you're going to stab him in the front" and "hit every single creature in a ten foot wide corridor for 60ft before having the weapon magically return to your hand without magic." Which is an iron heart 6 maneuver, I believe.
Iron Heart 6, yeah. So, we're talking an 11th level character.

Conventional wisdom is that real world only goes up to level 6. CR calculations seem to assume a doubling every two levels. So... an 11th level character is roughly 5.7 times better than the greatest real-world masters.

And... forget anime, you know who's most famous for that attack?
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Xena-xena-3A-warrior-princess-347916_700_536.jpg

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 02:04 PM
And... forget anime, you know who's most famous for that attack?
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Xena-xena-3A-warrior-princess-347916_700_536.jpg

I beg to differ.
http://www.disnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Captain-America.jpg

true_shinken
2010-11-10, 02:05 PM
I believe I addressed this. It was in the part you didn't quote.



No, you didn't. No one in your game ever took Leap Attack/Battle Jump as well, I believe. I'm not talking about magic per se, I'm talking about the D&D system as a whole. If you have a problem about jumping/doing a backflip being good in a fight, then you have problems with D&D, where Leap Attack is a very good feat and Tumble is a very good skill.
Like I said, D&D is not meant to simulate historical combat. You have mentioned Conan as well, haven't you? Guess what - he tends to jump a lot while fighting. Oh well.
How about the Lord of the Rings movie? Is it too fantatic as well, with Legolas skating down a stairway while shooting arrows precisely? Is Drizzt Do'Urden too fantastic as well, with his 'dancer' nickname and 'superpowered evil side'? Is Dorn Graybrook form Year of Rogue Dragons too fantastic because he wrestles dragon? What about Beowulf? I believe you wouldn't want that guy in your game. Or the Spartans. After all, spartan fighting is not 'historical' at all, right?

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 02:06 PM
I beg to differ.
http://www.disnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Captain-America.jpg
Matter of opinion, I guess. But the point still stands. :smallcool:

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 02:07 PM
Matter of opinion, I guess. But the point still stands. :smallcool:

It does indeed. :smallcool:

faceroll
2010-11-10, 02:17 PM
Iron Heart 6, yeah. So, we're talking an 11th level character.

Conventional wisdom is that real world only goes up to level 6. CR calculations seem to assume a doubling every two levels. So... an 11th level character is roughly 5.7 times better than the greatest real-world masters.

And... forget anime, you know who's most famous for that attack?
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Xena-xena-3A-warrior-princess-347916_700_536.jpg

Ugh, both hercules and xena were such stupid, stupid, shows. The fight scenes were painful to watch. Also, wuxia. Wuxia is the term I'm supposed to use.


No, you didn't. No one in your game ever took Leap Attack/Battle Jump as well, I believe. I'm not talking about magic per se, I'm talking about the D&D system as a whole. If you have a problem about jumping/doing a backflip being good in a fight, then you have problems with D&D, where Leap Attack is a very good feat and Tumble is a very good skill.
Like I said, D&D is not meant to simulate historical combat. You have mentioned Conan as well, haven't you? Guess what - he tends to jump a lot while fighting. Oh well.
How about the Lord of the Rings movie? Is it too fantatic as well, with Legolas skating down a stairway while shooting arrows precisely? Is Drizzt Do'Urden too fantastic as well, with his 'dancer' nickname and 'superpowered evil side'? Is Dorn Graybrook form Year of Rogue Dragons too fantastic because he wrestles dragon? What about Beowulf? I believe you wouldn't want that guy in your game. Or the Spartans. After all, spartan fighting is not 'historical' at all, right?

/facepalm

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 02:25 PM
Ugh, both hercules and xena were such stupid, stupid, shows. The fight scenes were painful to watch. Also, wuxia. Wuxia is the term I'm supposed to use.
Go with "Action Hero". Xena, Hercules, Conan.... or pretty much anyone ever played by Arnold Schwarzenegger, Steven Segal, Bruce Willis, or Jason Stratham. None of those things are "Anime", nor are they even "Wuxia". And, with the exception of Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, and Shadow Hand, ToB maneuvers and stances are solidly in that genre.

Now, some people don't like Action Heroes in their D&D, they like their game a little grittier, and that's a valid argument but that's got nothing to do with Eastern or Western flavour.

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 02:28 PM
Go with "Action Hero". Xena, Hercules, Conan.... or pretty much anyone ever played by Arnold Schwarzenegger, Steven Segal, Bruce Willis, or Jason Stratham. None of those things are "Anime", nor are they even "Wuxia". And, with the exception of Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, and Shadow Hand, ToB maneuvers and stances are solidly in that genre.

Now, some people don't like Action Heroes in their D&D, they like their game a little grittier, and that's a valid argument but that's got nothing to do with Eastern or Western flavour.

See also: VanDamme, Bruce Lee, Stallone, Chuck Norris, etc.

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 02:35 PM
Iron Heart 6, yeah. So, we're talking an 11th level character.

Conventional wisdom is that real world only goes up to level 6. CR calculations seem to assume a doubling every two levels. So... an 11th level character is roughly 5.7 times better than the greatest real-world masters.

And... forget anime, you know who's most famous for that attack?
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Xena-xena-3A-warrior-princess-347916_700_536.jpgSo in Xena's case, didn't they hint that she's the daughter of Ares? In Captain America's case, once you've taken the super soldier serum and been exposed to vita-rays, you're not talking about a plain vanilla human. Neither is particularly a good example of "some guy who trained a lot and is now superhuman" which is what ToB maneuvers are supposed to be.


One maneuver. Which you don't have to take.It's not the only one that's a problem.


Wuxia, that's a much better term.Nah, people get hung up on that term as well. I prefer just saying "too anime" and just ignore it if someone spazes out over that particular use of the word. I don't believe that anyone really has a problem understanding what people are objecting to when they say ToB is "too anime" ...

Psyren
2010-11-10, 02:37 PM
I beg to differ.
http://www.disnology.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Captain-America.jpg

Gotta agree with this

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 02:40 PM
So in Xena's case, didn't they hint that she's the daughter of Ares? In Captain America's case, once you've taken the super soldier serum and been exposed to vita-rays, you're not talking about a plain vanilla human. Neither is particularly a good example of "some guy who trained a lot and is now superhuman" which is what ToB maneuvers are supposed to be
Actually, for much of Captain America's career, he was a plain vanilla human. When the serum got purged from his system, he merely replaced it with massive amounts of training and total dedication. For those time periods, he really was "some guy who trained a lot and is now superhuman".

Also, that ignores my later post about "Action Hero". Western tradition is rife with examples, no need to go blame it on the East.

Greenish
2010-11-10, 02:42 PM
So in Xena's case, didn't they hint that she's the daughter of Ares? In Captain America's case, once you've taken the super soldier serum and been exposed to vita-rays, you're not talking about a plain vanilla human."Plain vanilla human" doesn't really describe any character past level 6 or so (even the ones that are human).

Neither is particularly a good example of "some guy who trained a lot and is now superhuman" which is what ToB maneuvers are supposed to be.Well, given that in D&D, "training a lot" allows you to learn magic.

Nah, people get hung up on that term as well. I prefer just saying "too anime" and just ignore it if someone spazes out over that particular use of the word. I don't believe that anyone really has a problem understanding what people are objecting to when they say ToB is "too anime" ...The amount of people who've been asking what that is supposed to mean seems to say otherwise.

Also, I find your comments too Noir. :smalltongue:

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 02:48 PM
The fallacy doesn't apply because I'm not claiming its not a problem, I'm saying "If you find X a problem, then can't you just fix it with this 1 really simple step?" Don't get me wrong, I dislike the <spout fallacy name you don't actually understand as if it's supposed to stop all argument> method of debate that seems to crop up a lot, but the answer to his question is really "people on this forum generally like ToB and don't like monks"


Mundane classes like the monk and paladin?It's not really accurate to label either of those as mundane... one represents the progression toward ascension to a semi-divine being, the other is fairly explicitly divinely magical.

Zodiac
2010-11-10, 02:52 PM
Language is how people communicate so being derisive about the difference between anime and wuxia is missing the point entirely. Its like the difference between tabletop rpgs and fantasy, just because many popular ttrpgs are fantasy does not mean all rpgs are fantasy. And yes, this is an important distinction to make.

You always jump to the more fantastic ToB maneuvers without paying attention to the more mundane ones like White Raven or Iron Heart. The problems that you seem to be attributing to ToB is one that is really relevant to the flaws in D&D, mundane characters should be able to do things like *gasp* jump to increase damage to begin with or use stances to gain an advantage, but the core chasis of the game quite simply does not allow these reasonable choices to be made and ToB is the only supplement that meaningfully improves the ability of mundane classes to make these choices. And yes many of the maneuvers are much more "magical", but again there is no issue in choosing only more "realistic" maneuvers.

And honestly, if you really think that things like a lighting a sword on fire, rejecting an attack with just willpower, or being able to hit every person in a room and have the weapon return only occur in anime, you're dead wrong.

Furthermore, its not like core D&D doesn't already have things that are "anime". The monk is freaking completely eastern with slow fall and quivering palm. What about rage? Powering with anger to punish your opponent is totally a dbz thing surely. What's up with TWF? I mean sure its popped up here and there in the west, but its totally an anime samurai thing. What I'm trying to say here is you're finding anime only in ToB because you are specifically looking for anime only in ToB, and not applying that lens elsewhere. If your problem is with maneuvers being vancian and refreshable, but you have absolutely no problem with limited uses of rage or with bards recovering what is ostensibly magic music through sleep, you have a very narrow and crooked sense of verisimilitude.

tl;dr
You only find anime or wuxia or whatever only in ToB because you are only looking for that stuff in ToB with looking at everything else in that aspect.

LibraryOgre
2010-11-10, 02:53 PM
If I were to play 3.x again, I would like to have ToB available.

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 02:53 PM
"Plain vanilla human" doesn't really describe any character past level 6 or so (even the ones that are human).Yes, it does. A human fighter 20 is a plain vanilla human (same goes for all other explicitly non-magical classes). They can do magic only by using outside sources (ie: items, magically gained abilities, etc). They have no innate magical abilities.


The amount of people who've been asking what that is supposed to mean seems to say otherwise.Not at all; that's just an attempt to disregard someone's arguments by arguing semantics. It's a really common fallback when someone has a particularly weak argument, (edit) or when someone is particularly zealous about something specific to the term in question.

Serenity
2010-11-10, 02:54 PM
Even with the serum, Cap is consistently described as 'peak human physical condition'. None of what he does is meant to be interpreted as superpowers, but rather, the skill of a man who is as agile, hale, and strong as it is possible for a human being to be*. Same with Batman. Both are routinely depicted performing feats of strength and acrobatic stunts that are patently ridiculous, but are never intended as magical or superpowered. Merely superhuman by dint of extensive training and physical conditioning.

* (Disclaimer: Ultimate Captain America is explicitly superpowered, however.)

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 03:04 PM
Even with the serum, Cap is consistently described as 'peak human physical condition'.He's still a human who's taken a magic potion in order to become a super soldier.

Nor is describing him as "peak human physical condition" really all that meaningful in the comic book world. There's a reason why "comic book character" is used as a derisive term for totally unbelievable characters.

The point is: there's nothing in any of the ToB classes that requires something like this to occur. If there was, you'd see FAR fewer objections.


What about rage?Berzerker's are well known in germanic, celtic and scandanavian folklore, so it's totally appropriate for western themed fantasy.


What's up with TWF?This has many references in western fantasy; Aragorn with a sword in one hand and a torch in the other (fighting with both) as a quick example.

Keld Denar
2010-11-10, 03:14 PM
Yes, it does. A human fighter 20 is a plain vanilla human (same goes for all other explicitly non-magical classes). They can do magic only by using outside sources (ie: items, magically gained abilities, etc)

Straight up PHB, no magic items. Assume fighter20 with a 17 starting Str, with 5 level up bonuses all going to Str for an end Str of 22 (+6). Lets give him Athletic, Skill Focus: Jump, 5 ranks in tumble for synergy, and the Run feat. That gives him a 23 + 6 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 40. Assuming he flubs and rolls a 1, thats a 41 jump check, which with a running start allows him to make a 41' horizontally. Thats the MINIMUM he can jump, no magic involved.

I dunno many plain, vanilla humans who can do that. The world record is what, 22' feet? A level 20 Fighter with a slight focus on jumping can jump a minimum of ~2x as far as the olympic world record, and on a roll of 20, almost 3x. I dunno about you, but thats pretty "super" human to me, totally non-magical. Your arguement completely breaks down because D&D IS SUPERHUMAN! So, if some superhuman is good (PHB jumping), and some superhuman is bad (ToB jump attacking), is there a concrete line you can draw to delineate the difference?

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 03:14 PM
He's still a human who's taken a magic potion in order to become a super soldier.

Nor is describing him as "peak human physical condition" really all that meaningful in the comic book world. There's a reason why "comic book character" is used as a derisive term for totally unbelievable characters.

The point is: there's nothing in any of the ToB classes that requires something like this to occur. If there was, you'd see FAR fewer objections.
Batman, then. I'm pretty darn sure Batman can batarang half a dozen guys in the same throw if he really tries, and he never had serum. Yes, it's "totally unbelievable". Or rather yes, it's "Action Hero". Still not "Wuxia" or "Anime" though.

Again, the issue seems to be what tone we expect or do not expect from D&D characters. If you want your game gritty and serious, ToB may not apply. If you want your characters to be Action Heroes, roundhouse-kicking a gigantic robotic gorilla in the mouth before riding off into the sunset on a Velociraptor, well, that's a bit different. ToB isn't quite there, but I think anyone will freely admit it's a bit farther in that direction than, say, the Fighter or Barbarian.

But that's got nothing to to with East vs West.

olentu
2010-11-10, 03:22 PM
Define "non-caster". Totemist? Binder? Warlock? Heck, the Monk gets objectively supernatural stuff. Is "Shadow Jaunt" any more problematic than "Abundant Step"?

I assume non caster is whatever the quoted personage meant by noncaster in this "Basically his point was that a high level non-caster is mounted on a magical flying creature, shooting arrows with absurd speed/precision, capable of seeing invisible creatures, blinking through walls etc. etc."

So probably fighters given the focus on archery. I don't see why you are asking me though given that I did not make up the quote.

Serenity
2010-11-10, 03:28 PM
Nor is describing him as "peak human physical condition" really all that meaningful in the comic book world. There's a reason why "comic book character" is used as a derisive term for totally unbelievable characters.

Now who's arguing semantics? Just like the anime and wuxia examples, these are a popular form of fantastic media/storytelling which present characters capable of superhuman feats by dint of being Just That Good, rather than magic--and moreover, a wholly Western form of that trope.

You may not like this sort of story. that's fine. But there's nothing exclusively or unapproachably 'Eastern' about it.

As you have already pointed out, there is nothing 'mundane' about monks or paladins, so we shouldn't expect anything mundane about the crusader or swordsage. And there is nothing the Warblade can do that is any more supernatural than the rogue who can stand at Ground Zero and emerge unscathed, or the fighter who can jump twice as far as the Olympic world record without even trying.

As the description of Extraordinary Abilities in the 3.5 PHB states: 'Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics." (3.5 PHB, pg. 180, emphasis mine.)

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 03:29 PM
I assume non caster is whatever the quoted personage meant by noncaster in this "Basically his point was that a high level non-caster is mounted on a magical flying creature, shooting arrows with absurd speed/precision, capable of seeing invisible creatures, blinking through walls etc. etc."

So probably fighters given the focus on archery. I don't see why you are asking me though given that I did not make up the quote.
Apologies. My intent was to demonstrate that, even among non-CASTERS, supernatural and superhuman abilities are pretty common. I count... oh.... less than 15% of classes in the game (7/51, depending on your list) being strictly non-magical, and even some of them bend it a little. The other 85% all have some supernatural or superhuman abilities.

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 03:30 PM
I dunno many plain, vanilla humans who can do that.Obviously you don't know very many lvl 20 humans, eh?


So, if some superhuman is good (PHB jumping), and some superhuman is bad (ToB jump attacking), is there a concrete line you can draw to delineate the difference?I didn't actually say there was anything wrong with the latter, just that the examples given were bad examples, since they were comparing apples (characters with divine/superscience sourced powers) to oranges (explicitly vanilla humans with levels in warblade).


Batman, then. I'm pretty darn sure Batman can batarang half a dozen guys in the same throw if he really tries, and he never had serum. Yes, it's "totally unbelievable".Yup, Batman is a MUCH better example.


If you want your characters to be Action Heroes, roundhouse-kicking a gigantic robotic gorilla in the mouth before riding off into the sunset on a Velociraptor, well, that's a bit different.You're setting up a bit of a false dilemma here: it's possible to be an action hero without being so over the top that you're going to roundhouse kick a gigantic robotic gorilla in the mouth before riding off into the sunset on a Velociraptor. It's possible to want to play action heroes without the latter being a possibility.


But that's got nothing to to with East vs West.So?


Now who's arguing semantics? Just like the anime and wuxia examples, these are a popular form of fantastic media/storytelling which present characters capable of superhuman feats by dint of being Just That Good, rather than magic--and moreover, a wholly Western form of that trope. I'm not really sure what you mean?

I'm saying that most people who say "that's too anime" for ToB are probably going to have a problem with modeling characters after American comics as well, for a very similar reason.

Frosty
2010-11-10, 03:39 PM
Stop trying to convince Faceroll. It's not worth the effort and he won't listen. He has stated it is his own personal (whether rational or not) bias, and he's sticking with it. He can play his games how he wants and he is free to not join other games that uses material that he doesn't like.

Just because he (wrongly) thinks that ToB involves your character yelling out moves and twirling and spinning and such doesn't mean he's not entitled to his opinion. He's free to dislike as much of DnD 3.5 (including Whirlwind Attack) as he sees fit.

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 03:45 PM
You're setting up a bit of a false dilemma here: it's possible to be an action hero without being so over the top that you're going to roundhouse kick a gigantic robotic gorilla in the mouth before riding off into the sunset on a Velociraptor. It's possible to want to play action heroes without the latter being a possibility.
I thought the later text clarified that. Basically, my intent was to set up a continuum. On the one side you have, say, "Seven Samurai (http://wondersinthedark.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/seven-samurai-1-copy.jpg?w=500&h=375)", where pretty much everyone is hungry, desperate, and only a "master swordsman" could stand good odds against a couple lvl 1 Warriors. Call that "Left".

On the other side you have, say, this (http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/halolz-dot-com-worldofwarcraft-epicness-motivational.jpgg). Call that "Right"

Core D&D is somewhere between those two points already, probably a little further to the right compared to similar games. ToB is probably a little bit further in that direction than Core. If you prefer your games further to the left, D&D can make do, but ToB will seem out of place.

Gensh
2010-11-10, 03:54 PM
I think by this point, a lot of the anti-ToB/neutral side is just arguing against the knee-jerk reactions forumers here always seem to have whenever someone says they aren't allowed to use ToB. It's always "go find another group" or sometimes even "punch the DM." Certain outliers aside, most of us just want the hate to stop. The long and short of it is that D&D *does* present itself as the sort of system where level 20 characters are Aragorn and pals, regardless of how likely they're in the 3-6 range in-game. Some people enjoy to pretend it *is* that sort of system or (in the case of my various groups), haven't noticed that it isn't yet.

Nevertheless, whenever someone asks whether it should be used or not, or complains that they can't use it or whatever, tempers flare, and you've suddenly got a bunch of ye olde dragon-is-the-final-boss fans and a bunch of newfangled dragon genocide fans shouting at each other with the former not doing their research and the latter not making much more of an argument than "nuh-uh." Then you've got reasonable people like Greenish. Listen to them.

Koury
2010-11-10, 03:59 PM
Then you've got reasonable people like Greenish.

Of all the things I thought I'd never read... :smalleek:

Susano-wo
2010-11-10, 04:00 PM
assumptions/argument about how nsuperhuman fighters are or aren't aside...
also, setting aside how much people gush about ToB and will jump to recommend it even when its been stated that it is not desired or even not an option...

There is a difference between flavor fixes and mechanical ones, mostly because you can't go wrong with flavor as long as you and the others you are playing with like it. Just like there is no wrong way to play as long as all are having fun.

There is also a big difference between "swap tags" [honestly, I don't see how anyone can see that as anything other than a mistake on Shadow X...I freakin facepalmed when it was pointed out...:smallmad:], and "well, if you make this ability to X now, and increase damage from Y to Z..." as fixes

I also see the Wuxia thing as important because A: it doesn't come off as slander, so its going to generate a lot more flame[blame sensitive anime/ToB fans and the "Wuxia/Anime Fytan Magick" people :smallannoyed:] B: there are definitte style differences that may need to be addressed. YOu shouldn't get bogged down in semantics, so once its clear what the person is talking about, its probably best not to worry about it, but it should definitely be corrected, so that over generalizing doesnt increase. [I admit its a tough call sometimes :smallsigh:]


THe thing for me that I don't get with ToB is why people seem to say "I don't like ToB because its too fantastical[anime, wuxia, etc], then don't accept that you can use it in less fantastical ways. Some people, it sounds like, are only being held back. If the only thing holding you back is that its too much like X, then if X can easily be taken away/changed, why the resistance?

I think the list boils down to:

*Too Wuxia: disable/choose to not use (depending on it you are Gm or player) some of the most eggregious offenders and you can easily remove that obstacle

*Too Magical: same fix

*Things that should be magical, aren't. As easy as the above fix and/or making them supernatural

Too much work to reflavor: fine. If there is someone who is willing to try/use ToB, but this is the only objection, I will personally work to make a flavor fix, including changing the names, compiling a list of OK to use in X Y or Z game style maneuvers, or hell, even trying to work around class features that seem too out of place.:smallbiggrin:
*Too powerful. Well, not much to be done here. If your games are under its Op Floor, then there's not a whole lot to be done about it (though I'd hope a DM would allow me to use martial study upon approved maneuvers:smallsmile:)

*Maneuvers too much like Vancian casting. This one is trickier, but I rationalize it by not being set up for the maneuver. As in, you need to be in this stance/position/etc to perform the maneuver, and once you use it you are no longer in position, until you take your recovery action to regain your stance/position, etc.. A bit of mental gymnastics, but for me, its no wore wall-bangy than having, say 2 spell likes for 1st lvl spells at 1/day. (Why can't I use either one 2/day? they are using the same amount of spiritual power...) Or Vancian casting in the first place:smallbiggrin:
but yeah, if you can't buy into that rationalization, then that's prety much a deal breaker.

And in the end if you don't want to use it, I'm not going to tell you you are doing it wrong. There are plenty of others on the forum to do that :/
I just hope that no one rejects it just because of surface impressions or because of rabid fans, when it could add fun things to their game.

Zodiac
2010-11-10, 04:02 PM
{stuff about how my examples are wrong}

I know that, but that wasn't the point. The point was if ToB is the only thing that is being compared with stereotypical fighting shonen anime, and everything else is given a pass, then of course ToB is going to be the only "anime" source in D&D. I simply gave those examples to demonstrate that many things outside of ToB in D&D can just as easily be interpreted just as "anime" as ToB if people go out of their way to do so the same way people do for ToB. And don't tell me that people swinging flaming swords, cutting through anything, or having a throwing weapon return to the user, or using willpower to overcome an attack doesn't occur in any western tradition because that is a provably false statement. People honestly just find what they want to see.

Edit: Cleaned up typos.

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 04:13 PM
if you can't buy into that rationalization, then that's prety much a deal breaker.You know, there are a lot of debates about RPGs where this statement is appropriate. Being willing to recognize that is huge.


And in the end if you don't want to use it, I'm not going to tell you you are doing it wrong. There are plenty of others on the forum to do that :/
I just hope that no one rejects it just because of surface impressions or because of rabid fans, when it could add fun things to their game.Bravo! And unfortunately, very true :/


I know that, but that wasn't the point. The point was if ToB is the only thing that is being compared with stereotypical fighting shonen anime, and everything else is given a pass, then of course ToB is going to be the only "anime" source in D&D. I simply gave those examples to demonstrate that many things outside of ToB in D&D can just as easily be interpreted just as "anime" or as ToB if people go out of their way to do so the way people do for ToB. And don't tell me that people swinging flaming swords, cutting through anything, or having a throwing weapon return to the user doesn't occur in any western tradition, or using willpower to overcome an attack because that is a provably false statement.You know, if you snip out the entire quote it's kind of a pain to figure out what you're talking about. I mean, it's as bad as just randomly snipping out every other word (I gave some thought to do this but it wouldn't have really helped the situation)

If that was your point, then mentioning 2 things that appear in western history isn't doing a lot to back it up.

In western fantasy (and especially folklore), the hero in question generally has an explicitly magical, or divine power source (most commonly the latter). Magic sword/scabbard, son of the god, divine providence (the forum rules make it hard to talk about this one), etc. You'll get a few that aren't, especially in American comic books, but they're fairly rare and they tend to be superhuman at doing things that normal humans can do (ie, they can jump really far, further than humans can in the real world... but real world humans CAN jump) rather than doing magic by the power of awesome.

So in western fantasy, you might have someone with a fiery sword that's magical, or because he's the son of a god, or because of his faith in God and divine favor, but is there one who's sword lights on fire because he's practiced with his sword a lot? I can't think of one.


I thought the later text clarified that. Basically, my intent was to set up a continuum. On the one side you have, say, "Seven Samurai (http://wondersinthedark.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/seven-samurai-1-copy.jpg?w=500&h=375)", where pretty much everyone is hungry, desperate, and only a "master swordsman" could stand good odds against a couple lvl 1 Warriors. Call that "Left".

On the other side you have, say, this (http://www.antireligion.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/jesusridingdinosaur.jpg). Call that "Right"

Core D&D is somewhere between those two points already, probably a little further to the right compared to similar games. ToB is probably a little bit further in that direction than Core. If you prefer your games further to the left, D&D can make do, but ToB will seem out of place.After reading this I think I see what you were trying to say in the earlier post, but this one is much clearer (it's possible you explained this in an earlier post that I missed skimming through 7 pages).

olentu
2010-11-10, 04:25 PM
Apologies. My intent was to demonstrate that, even among non-CASTERS, supernatural and superhuman abilities are pretty common. I count... oh.... less than 15% of classes in the game (7/51, depending on your list) being strictly non-magical, and even some of them bend it a little. The other 85% all have some supernatural or superhuman abilities.

Ah well I took no offense as I sort of assumed your intention was something like that so no problem.

Zodiac
2010-11-10, 04:29 PM
If that was your point, then mentioning 2 things that appear in western history isn't doing a lot to back it up.

In western fantasy (and especially folklore), the hero in question generally has an explicitly magical, or divine power source (most commonly the latter). Magic sword/scabbard, son of the god, divine providence (the forum rules make it hard to talk about this one), etc. You'll get a few that aren't, especially in American comic books, but they're fairly rare and they tend to be superhuman at doing things that normal humans can do (ie, they can jump really far, further than humans can in the real world... but real world humans CAN jump) rather than doing magic by the power of awesome.

So in western fantasy, you might have someone with a sword that's magical, or because he's the son of a god, or because of his faith in God and divine favor, but is there one who's sword lights on fire because he's practiced with his sword a lot? I can't think of one.

Congratulations, you've pretty much hit on every possible way to fight with a sword lit on fire, and guess what, almost every single time it occurs in an anime it's for one of the reasons you mentioned, so what's your point. The only class that can use Desert Wind (the swordsage) is explicitly spelled out to use a magical source the way you mentioned, so no, its not a matter of swinging a sword until it lights on fire, and it never was. Maybe I wasn't clear by what I meant, so here goes: For every comparison to an anime for ToB an equally apt comparison can made to a western tradition, and if anybody is looking to see an "anime" influence they'll find it - to a similar extent as martial abilities elsewhere.

Edit: For clarity.

Gametime
2010-11-10, 04:36 PM
Wuxia, that's a much better term. I find it unfortunate that people get hung up on the semantics. Also, I think I was quoting you. Someone said "depth of the medium", and all I've seen of it is stuff like Dragon Ball Z or berserk where there's a ton of screaming and charging their special moves. It's kind of silly, imo.

That's understandable, considering that a) anime gets fairly little exposure in the West, and b) Dragon Ball Z is a very silly show. But the medium really is incredibly deep, since all "anime" means is "animation that comes from Japan" (or at least that's how it's used). You've got your action shows, but you also have murder mysteries, slice of life shows that utilize Seinfeldian humor, psychological thrillers, and incredibly sorrowful works on the horrors of war.

I'm not trying to get hung up on the semantics, but it bothers me when people who don't really know anything about anime (and I don't mean any offense by that) talk about it as a single easily identified type of storytelling, when it isn't. It diminishes the medium and contributes to the popular idea that animation is childish, which doesn't do anyone any good.




Nah, people get hung up on that term as well. I prefer just saying "too anime" and just ignore it if someone spazes out over that particular use of the word. I don't believe that anyone really has a problem understanding what people are objecting to when they say ToB is "too anime" ...

So, basically, you prefer to continue to use a phrase that you are fully aware is inaccurate and trust that shared cultural biases and limited media knowledge will allow people to grasp you wholly misrepresented intention.

Seems like a bit of a gamble, when you could just change your phrasing.

As for why some of us get hung up on it, when you say something is "too anime" what you are literally saying is that something is "too animation." Using the western definition, you are saying that something is "too animation from Japan." Both of those phrases are completely nonsensical; is ToB too much like Bugs Bunny? What about Aladdin, does ToB evoke too much of that?

Moreover, the latter phrase carries the unfortunate implication that what is wrong with ToB is that it is too Japanese. I really doubt that's what you mean, but it is one of the many possible things you could be saying. For all these reasons, "too anime" is a highly problematic phrase.




It's not really accurate to label either of those as mundane... one represents the progression toward ascension to a semi-divine being, the other is fairly explicitly divinely magical.

Progression toward ascension to a semi-divine being that is achieved entirely through mundane training. How exactly does a monk getting supernatural results from natural work fit in, but a warblade getting the same thing stand out?




Not at all; that's just an attempt to disregard someone's arguments by arguing semantics. It's a really common fallback when someone has a particularly weak argument, (edit) or when someone is particularly zealous about something specific to the term in question.

No, actually, it's an attempt to clarify what anime actually is and to prevent people from using a highly inaccurate phrases loaded with unfortunate implications. It was said in no uncertain terms pages ago that your personal preferences are your own, and those of us arguing for proper terminology have constantly reinforced that idea. The point is that whatever your preferences, you should be able to express them in a way that doesn't implicitly belittle another person's, especially when that belittling is in the form of dismissing an entire medium of communication.

Faceroll seems perfectly happy to switch to a more accurate term; I don't see why you feel the need to stubbornly retain your completely meaningless phrase.

I also resent the assertion that all of us are using weak arguments or just zealous. I could say you're just using the "common fallback" of dismissing someone's post based on intentions you prescribe to them because that allows you to avoid acknowledging that we have a point.

Tl;dr: I find this entire discussion too movie, and think we should change the tone to be more newspaper to make sure we don't start acting all radio.

true_shinken
2010-11-10, 04:38 PM
Of all the things I thought I'd never read... :smalleek:

OMG, I loled SO HARD at this. You win a dozen internets, Koury.



/facepalm
That's not exactly mature. If you don't want to discuss, you shouldn't be here. I made valid points and I'd like you to properly refute them, if only to understand what you mean (which I frankly don't).

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 04:44 PM
Congratulations, you've pretty much hit on every possible way to fight with a sword lit on fire, and guess what, almost every single time it occurs in an anime its for one of the reasons you mentioned, so what's your point. You say "almost every single time it occurs in an anime its for one of the reasons you mentioned" ... the word "almost" implies that there are anime characters where this isn't the case; Roronoa Zoro has Yaki Oni Giri, so that's at least one example of fiery swords by the power of awesome. I'm sure there are others.

Unless you present a counter example, I'll take it that you don't know of any cases in western fantasy where someone's sword is on fire other than magic item/channeling divine power.


Maybe I wasn't clear by what I meant, so here goes: For every comparison to an anime for ToB an equally apt comparison can made to a western tradition.I'd accept "for many" but you haven't done anything to show "for every" ... So this just looks like a wild, unsubstantiated claim.

The Shadowmind
2010-11-10, 04:46 PM
Tl;dr: I find this entire discussion too movie, and think we should change the tone to be more newspaper to make sure we don't start acting all radio.

Okay, that made me lol.

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 04:50 PM
Unless you present a counter example, I'll take it that you don't know of any cases in western fantasy where someone's sword is on fire other than magic item/channeling divine power.
I'm pretty sure Krod Mandoon and the Flaming Sword of Fire qualifies. I'll admit to only having seen the first few episodes though. Maybe it gets explained later on. But from what I saw, his sword just spontaneously decides to ignite when he gets serious.

Oh, and there's that... Red Priest was it? In A Song of Ice and Fire. Doesn't technically fall under any of the categories listed.

Susano-wo
2010-11-10, 04:52 PM
Roronoa Zoro has Yaki Oni Giri

Not to mention Sanji's Sanji's Flambe Djamble. Even before you get to discussions of Haki, there are so many examples of Badassed normals in One Piece taking on devil fruit users, or doing patently impossible things.

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 04:53 PM
So, basically, you prefer to continue to use a phrase that you are fully aware is inaccurate and trust that shared cultural biases and limited media knowledge will allow people to grasp you wholly misrepresented intention.

Seems like a bit of a gamble, when you could just change your phrasing.Change it to what? We've had exactly the same "no that's not what wuxia means" discussions. Getting caught up on the exact terminology used, rather than just talking about specific elements is silly.


when you say something is "too anime" what you are literally saying is that something is "too animation." Not at all; it means "too much like those weird cartoons in the 'anime' section of blockbuster."

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 05:03 PM
Change it to what? We've had exactly the same "no that's not what wuxia means" discussions. Getting caught up on the exact terminology used, rather than just talking about specific elements is silly.
The reason "too anime" doesn't work is because it takes something a lot of people here love, and uses it as a pejorative. And a dubiously-accurate one at that. That's going to offend people, and it's going to cause backlash, and nothing you say will change that because you're still using something people love as a pejorative.

By contrast, I've yet to see anyone protest at "too Action Hero", and I'd argue the phrase captures your likely meaning better too.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 05:04 PM
Not at all; it means "too much like those weird cartoons in the 'anime' section of blockbuster."

Your insistence on classifying every different genre of japanese animation under one heading isn't winning you many points.

Yes, Blockbuster would likely put Pokemon, Death Note and La Blue Girl in the same section of the store. That doesn't make them any less mistaken for doing so.

Gametime
2010-11-10, 05:05 PM
Change it to what? We've had exactly the same "no that's not what wuxia means" discussions. Getting caught up on the exact terminology used, rather than just talking about specific elements is silly.

I find SonofZeal's suggestion of "action heroic" to be perfectly acceptable. "Over-the-top action" would also, I think, neatly capture the objection: That ToB represents a wider separation from reality than standard D&D combat.

But people seem intensely opposed to giving up on using Eastern phrases to describe ToB. I'm not sure why. Again, the implication seems to be that there is something uniquely non-Western about ToB, and for the life of me I can't find a single thing about it that's specific to Eastern culture.


Not at all; it means "too much like those weird cartoons in the 'anime' section of blockbuster."

Then you should say that, if that's the message you want to get across. But the meaning you give is a perfect example of why people like me don't like your use of the term in that way; you are equating anime, an entire nation's worth of animation, with "weird cartoons."

Surely you can see what that holds unpleasant implications. Surely you can understand why some fans of anime would rather not be shoeboxed into the narrow classification of "people who watch fringe cartoons that aren't like the other cartoons." Surely you can appreciate how that sort of subtle disdain makes your (perfectly understandable) dislike for ToB seem much more belligerent.

drakir_nosslin
2010-11-10, 05:06 PM
I'd accept "for many" but you haven't done anything to show "for every" ... So this just looks like a wild, unsubstantiated claim.

Flaming Swords (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlamingSword), do with it as you like. Lots of examples, both anime/manga and otherwise.

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 05:08 PM
Not to mention Sanji's Sanji's Flambe Djamble. Even before you get to discussions of Haki, there are so many examples of Badassed normals in One Piece taking on devil fruit users, or doing patently impossible things.Indeed. People who says "ToB is too anime" are thinking of those sorts of stunts.


I'm pretty sure Krod Mandoon and the Flaming Sword of Fire qualifies. I'll admit to only having seen the first few episodes though. Maybe it gets explained later on. But from what I saw, his sword just spontaneously decides to ignite when he gets serious.Interesting... from the 10 seconds I watched, that looks ridiculous (that's not a bad thing, should be funny).

From the wiki article: "His sword, created by his father, bursts into flame when he is challenged or in danger." ... sounds like it's a magic sword. I'd bet it's made out of thunderbolt iron.


Your insistence on classifying every different genre of japanese animation under one heading isn't winning you many points.I'm not trying to win points, so I'm fine with not winning many points.


Oh, and there's that... Red Priest was it? In A Song of Ice and Fire. Doesn't technically fall under any of the categories listed.I did some checking around, since I couldn't place the individual you were talking about. and saw "Yes, he is also a follower of the Lord of Light and he possesses both the ability to see into the future and to revive the dead. This is further evidence that the power of R'hllor is very real in Westeros." ... looks like a rather divine individual to me.

The Oakenshield
2010-11-10, 05:10 PM
This thread is pretty off-topic, eh?

Optimator
2010-11-10, 05:12 PM
Iron Heart 6, yeah. So, we're talking an 11th level character.

Conventional wisdom is that real world only goes up to level 6. CR calculations seem to assume a doubling every two levels. So... an 11th level character is roughly 5.7 times better than the greatest real-world masters.

And... forget anime, you know who's most famous for that attack?
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Xena-xena-3A-warrior-princess-347916_700_536.jpg

This, this, a thousand times this. D&D already breaks from reality and the ToB doesn't speed that up. If you don't like "Mundanes" doing super human feats, don't play past level 6-7. The ToB allows characters to be badass super-humans with their attacks instead of just their super-human HP and super-human stats and super-human skill rolls--which were already present before the ToB.

So in Xena's case, didn't they hint that she's the daughter of Ares? In Captain America's case, once you've taken the super soldier serum and been exposed to vita-rays, you're not talking about a plain vanilla human. Neither is particularly a good example of "some guy who trained a lot and is now superhuman" which is what ToB maneuvers are supposed to be.
Um, that's what being high level in D&D is modeling. The Captain and Xena aren't magic. Once a character reaches the level to do these feats in-game, they are far beyond a normal human's capability in terms of skill. It would look supernatural to a normal person's eyes, no? It absolutely does not break verisimilitude for non-magic characters to pull off this kind of stuff in D&D.

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 05:13 PM
This thread is pretty off-topic, eh?Not really, all of this is related to people's opinions of ToB.


Um, that's what being high level in D&D is modeling.Not at all. High level just means you have lots of experience, not that you're descended from the god of war, or have taken a magic potion to make you a super soldier.

Now, those are valid high level characters... but they aren't representative of high level characters in D&D, since they have the divine/magic background that some high level characters are going to lack, so they're bad examples when talking about high level D&D in general.

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 05:13 PM
Interesting... from the 10 seconds I watched, that looks ridiculous (that's not a bad thing, should be funny).

From the wiki article: "His sword, created by his father, bursts into flame when he is challenged or in danger." ... sounds like it's a magic sword.
It.... could be. But nothing else in the entire setting is, as far as I've seen. Including the party wizard. It's just a sword that... does that, some times. And generally freaks him right the hell out in the process.


I did some checking around, since I couldn't place the individual you were talking about. and saw "Yes, he is also a follower of the Lord of Light and he possesses both the ability to see into the future and to revive the dead. This is further evidence that the power of R'hllor is very real in Westeros." ... looks like a rather divine individual to me.
He starts doing those things (and not very well, mind you) after dragons and hence magic return to the world, but he was fighting with a flaming sword before that. Granted, it was more just creative use of Alchemist's Fire than any fantastic skill.

Susano-wo
2010-11-10, 05:13 PM
Not really, all of this is related to people's opinions of ToB.

or to put it another way. unhelpful post is unhelpful :smallwink:

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 05:17 PM
Surely you can understand why some fans of anime would rather not be shoeboxed into the narrow classification of "people who watch fringe cartoons that aren't like the other cartoons." No, I can't; I don't have any problems with it.

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 05:17 PM
Yes, Blockbuster would likely put Pokemon, Death Note and La Blue Girl in the same section of the store. That doesn't make them any less mistaken for doing so.
Wait.

Yes, Blockbuster would likely put Pokemon, Death Note and La Blue Girl in the same section of the store.
WHAT?!?!?

Pokemon
Arguably for children under the age of 16

Death Note
Not sure but sounds like not for kids under 16

La Blue Girl
NOT FOR KIDS UNDER 25!!

Psyren
2010-11-10, 05:19 PM
Wait.

WHAT?!?!?

I said Blockbuster, not me :smalltongue:

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 05:22 PM
Wait.

WHAT?!?!?

Arguably for children under the age of 16

Not sure but sounds like not for kids under 16

NOT FOR KIDS UNDER 25!!Actually, at this point i think they put pokemon in the kids section. But the essence of this is correct: they do lump disparate things like this together in that section.

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 05:25 PM
I said Blockbuster, not me :smalltongue:

I just find it appalling that La Blue Girl would even be in with rated 'R' movies, let alone Pokemon. How could a company not know what that movie is. Parents may mistake it for a light heated romantic comedy or something!!! :smalltongue:

Optimator
2010-11-10, 05:26 PM
Not at all. High level just means you have lots of experience, not that you're descended from the god of war, or have taken a magic potion to make you a super soldier.

In D&D you can just kill monsters and mundanely train to reach ridiculous heights of skill and ability. Skills and abilities that can be EXtraordinary and fantastic and impossible in the real world. Characters routinely achieve levels of skill that are impossible to attain in real life. That's a fact. This is represented in D&D using experience points and levels.


So in western fantasy, you might have someone with a fiery sword that's magical, or because he's the son of a god, or because of his faith in God and divine favor, but is there one who's sword lights on fire because he's practiced with his sword a lot? I can't think of one.
Also, I find this argument fairly disingenuous. Swordsages don't just "practice" with a sword until it lights on fire if his hands and feet are in the right place. Swordsages actually do magic.

drakir_nosslin
2010-11-10, 05:26 PM
Did you know that:

When Aragorn first draws Anduril (meaning Flame of the West), ghostly fire runs down it. In case you're wondering, it's that sword that Elrond and Arwen forge from the shards of Narsil.


The sword of Discworld's Chaos is made of blue fire, a flame so hot that it goes to the other side and becomes absolute cold. On his off days, he uses it to keep the milk he sells fresh.



In Codex Alera, any sufficiently skilled firecrafter can light their sword on fire; however, it takes quite a lot of power to be able to do so, and as such is a technique mainly used by the immensely powerful High Lords.


The God Emperor of Mankind within Warhammer40000 seems to have used one. Though that may have been related to his Psychic Powers.

And now I've forgotten why this even was deemed important for the argument. Fighters run around with flaming swords all the time.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 05:29 PM
I just find it appalling that La Blue Girl would even be in with rated 'R' movies, let alone Pokemon. How could a company not know what that movie is. Parents may mistake it for a light heated romantic comedy or something!!! :smalltongue:

Easy: The Animation Age Ghetto (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimationAgeGhetto)

Hell, look at the picture on the trope page.

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 05:30 PM
And now I've forgotten why this even was deemed important for the argument. Fighters run around with flaming swords all the time.

Or you could just use alchemist's fire, and hope to hell your sword doesn't melt when exposed to white phosphorous for long periods of time. :smalltongue:


Hell, look at the picture on the trope page.

:eek::eek:

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 05:31 PM
In D&D you can just kill monsters and mundanely train to reach ridiculous heights of skill and ability. Skills and abilities that can be EXtraordinary and fantastic and impossible in the real world. Characters routinely achieve levels of skill that are impossible to attain in real life. That's a fact. This is represented in D&D using experience points and levels.and? I'm not sure how this relates to to the fact that Xena and Captain America are bad examples of characters who are "just that damn good" because they have specifics in their background that may account for their abilities rather just being "that damn good" .

@drakir_nosslin
1. Magic sword.
2. Sword made out of fire.
3. Magic User.
4. Magic (aka psychic) user.

Susano-wo
2010-11-10, 05:32 PM
Actually, at this point i think they put pokemon in the kids section. But the essence of this is correct: they do lump disparate things like this together in that section.

video rental places have gotten much better. IN America in the 80's you'd see a lot of every anime in its own section/in the foreign section, but all lumped together, but now they at least know the difference between Urustukidoji and Urusei Yatsura. And also between those and kids shows. :P

Gametime
2010-11-10, 05:32 PM
No, I can't; I don't have any problems with it.

And you are both utterly unable to understand why someone else might feel differently and unwilling to change your behavior to accommodate the preferences of other posters?

I don't think it's completely outrageous to ask you to stop using "anime" the way Vizzini uses "inconceivable."

EDIT: And why are we still talking about flaming swords when there isn't a single non-magical initiator who can set their swords on fire?

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 05:38 PM
And you are both utterly unable to understand why someone else might feel differently and unwilling to change your behavior to accommodate the preferences of other posters?

I don't think it's completely outrageous to ask you to stop using "anime" the way Vizzini uses "inconceivable."

EDIT: And why are we still talking about flaming swords when there isn't a single non-magical initiator who can set their swords on fire?
Warblade with Martial Study. #devil'sadvocate :smallwink:


(...and with feats you can also pick up Shape Soulmeld, Bind Vestige, Wild Talent, or a couple other magical thingywhatsits. So, it doesn't disprove your point.)

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 05:41 PM
I don't think it's completely outrageous to ask you to stop using "anime" the way Vizzini uses "inconceivable."Well, since I understand both what "anime" means, and what people use the phrase "that's too anime" mean when they use it, I don't think that's a correct analogy.


EDIT: And why are we still talking about flaming swords when there isn't a single non-magical initiator who can set their swords on fire?Because it's an example of a particular type of difference between western and eastern fantasy, one that isn't necessarily limited to fiery swords in specific; that difference is at the heart of why some (not all, but indeed some) people dislike ToB, and why they blame their dislike on "ToB is too anime".


(...and with feats you can also pick up Shape Soulmeld, Bind Vestige, Wild Talent, or a couple other magical thingywhatsits. So, it doesn't disprove your point.)Arguably true, though martial study is supposedly just studying how to swing your sword really well, while those others are explicitly magical. I'd say it requires some refluffing of the martial study feat

drakir_nosslin
2010-11-10, 05:45 PM
Unless you present a counter example, I'll take it that you don't know of any cases in western fantasy where someone's sword is on fire other than magic item/channeling divine power.


@drakir_nosslin
1. Magic sword.
2. Sword made out of fire.
3. Magic User.
4. Magic (aka psychic) user.

So, yea. 2, 3, 4 do fulfill these criteria. However, I don't really remember if you disallowed magic users earlier in the thread and I don't care to double check. I linked the entire page earlier, but no one seemed to care...

Jayabalard
2010-11-10, 05:46 PM
So, yea. 2, 3, 4 do fulfill these criteria. However, I don't really remember if you disallowed magic users earlier in the thread and I don't care to double check. I linked the entire page earlier, but no one seemed to care...Oh absolutely, if you can use magic you can use magic. If I didn't say that it was because I kind of thought it went without saying.

Noone bat's an eye if Bob the wizzard's sword bursts into flame, but if Joe the barbarian's does, "well, it had better be a magic sword or we're not buying it."

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 05:47 PM
Arguably true, though martial study is supposedly just studying how to swing your sword really well, while those others are explicitly magical. I'd say it requires some refluffing of the martial study feat
You're doing this on purpose, aren't you?



MARTIAL STUDY
By studying the basics of a martial discipline, you learn to focus your ki...

Optimator
2010-11-10, 05:49 PM
Yeah. You spend a feat, you learn a magic trick. It's not hard.

drakir_nosslin
2010-11-10, 05:50 PM
Noone bat's an eye if Bob the wizzard's sword bursts into flame, but if Joe the barbarian's does, "well, it had better be a magic sword or we're not buying it."

Or maybe, just maybe Bob is being able to use magic (as in cool, useful stuff that's beyond the capabilities of a normal person in our universe) too? I must admit that much of this just feels like the same old 'melee shouldn't have nice things' talk over again.

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 05:52 PM
You're doing this on purpose, aren't you?

MARTIAL STUDY
By studying the basics of a martial discipline, you learn to focus your ki...

Whoah, next thing you know, monks will be too wuxia! :smalleek:

Boci
2010-11-10, 05:59 PM
Well, since I understand both what "anime" means, and what people use the phrase "that's too anime" mean when they use it, I don't think that's a correct analogy.

Its still wrong. Do you really need a reason why you point out word use when its wrong? I'd kinda like to put a lid on it before "too anime" being slang for "childish silliness" becomes too common.


Because it's an example of a particular type of difference between western and eastern fantasy, one that isn't necessarily limited to fiery swords in specific; that difference is at the heart of why some (not all, but indeed some) people dislike ToB, and why they blame their dislike on "ToB is too anime".

Most abilities that people have a problem with in ToB was present before in other books (like tumble, battle jump and leap attack), minus the swordsage, which can be a magic user in itself with the right choices.

Keld Denar
2010-11-10, 06:01 PM
I dunno many plain, vanilla humans who can do that.
Hmmm?

Obviously you don't know very many lvl 20 humans, eh?
Wut?

Not at all. High level just means you have lots of experience, not that you're descended from the god of war, or have taken a magic potion to make you a super soldier.

Now, those are valid high level characters... but they aren't representative of high level characters in D&D, since they have the divine/magic background that some high level characters are going to lack, so they're bad examples when talking about high level D&D in general.
Circular logic is circular...of course I don't know any level 20 humans. Its a game. Its not real. But its a game that models life. A life in which people CAN do super human extraordinary, non-magical things.

I just don't get where you draw the line? A man who can jump 40-60' is believable, but a man who can throw his sword down a hallway and scythe down 20 mooks isn't? This is where I'm having a disconnect. It seems to me that you don't want a game where people can do extraordinary things, but you want to play in a game where people are able to do extraordinary things. Either D&D is not the right system for you (thus negating your stance on ToB because it is a D&D book), or you are arbitrarily picking and choosing what does and doesn't fit into your paradigm based on...I dunno what.

So again, I ask you, how do you draw the line? Is it a gut thing? Or do you have a ruberic? This is the only question I have.

Optimator
2010-11-10, 06:04 PM
I just don't get where you draw the line? A man who can jump 40-60' is believable, but a man who can throw his sword down a hallway and scythe down 20 mooks isn't? This is where I'm having a disconnect. It seems to me that you don't want a game where people can do extraordinary things, but you want to play in a game where people are able to do extraordinary things. Either D&D is not the right system for you (thus negating your stance on ToB because it is a D&D book), or you are arbitrarily picking and choosing what does and doesn't fit into your paradigm based on...I dunno what.

So again, I ask you, how do you draw the line? Is it a gut thing? Or do you have a ruberic? This is the only question I have.

Thank you. This is the same disconnect I was feeling.