Ethergaunts vs. Devils

[Amiel]

Incarnate oppression versus the perfect nihilists.

One wishes to damn and enslave creation; forcing mortals and immortals to wallow in iniquity with millstones about the neck and spiked chains driven through the soul. These envision the prostration of the rest of the cosmos at the feet of Perdition. Subtle and logical, devils encapsulate all that is most represented by tyranny, considerable physical strength and intellectual acuity. Though evil, devils are unlike those who in their cruelty may demand others to stand, Hell but asks all to kneel.

The other are emotionless extinguishers of life. Possessed of the clarity of a logic unburdened by the farce of emotions and guided by perfect intellect - and thus lack the hubris plaguing most - these wish to exterminate all mortal life - likening this infestation to a virulent cancer and they the cure; mortal worlds crumble as dust before them. Each one is a proficient spellcaster, and possess a racial memory stretching through the dim mists of time. Each has an intelligence rivaling and exceeding those of archmages.

Who would win?

[Eldan]

That depends on a few things, I think:

a) How powerful are you willing to assume unique devils can get, and how cheesy is ethergaunt magic allowed to become? A Pit Fiend would lose horribly to the highest Ethergaunt: one has a handful of spell-like abilities, though admittedly wish is among them, the other can cast as a 17th level wizard with godlike intelligence.

b) How do the numbers compare? We don't really know how many Ethergaunts there are. They ruled the prime once, but that could mean a lot of things. One Prime world? All Prime Worlds? Spacejammer space and all crystal spheres, much like the Illithid? The devils rule an infinite plane, and they are infinite. That would be quite a problem for the Ethergaunts if they weren't.

c) How good is Ethergaunt technology? I gave them tech of pretty much high-end science fiction proportions, disintegration cannons, nanorobotics, FTL drives, but most of that can be replicated by magic. What can it do?

[dsmiles]

Ethergaunts would obviously win. After all, they're more awesomesauce than plain, old devils! :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, I would give it to the Ethergaunts. A few Blacks getting together and paying a visit to a Devil Prince would end very poorly for the fiend, after which everyone else in the Abyss would pounce on the power vacuum. Rinse and repeat until everything that could be a threat is dead.

[Eldan]

I would agree with Flickerdart, if not for the fact that devils are infinite in number, and that there are more of them whenever a lawful evil mortal dies. So that would require some extremely cheesy magic to wipe them all out.

[Beelzebub1111]

I thought that Devils were finite and DEMONS were infinite.

[Last Laugh]

What book are Ethergaunts from?

[J.Gellert]

Don't you mean, All that is Awesome vs Cheesy Aliens in my D&D?

[Beelzebub1111]

What book are Ethergaunts from?

Fiend Folio

[awa]

arnt some of the big devil like like Asemodues basically gods?

[PersonMan]

arnt some of the big devil like like Asemodues basically gods?

Not quite.

Besides, if you wipe out the infrastructure of soul-energy harvesting, the Lords lose their power to promote whatever soldiers they can get, and with enough attacks the devils' defenses might be breached by the demons-allowing the Ethergaunts to pop in a wipe out strategic target X while the demons rampage through the weakened layers.

+1 to "Demons are infinite, devils aren't" AFAIK

[Urpriest]

arnt some of the big devil like like Asemodues basically gods?

Depends. 3.5 or 4e? Dicefreaks or canon?

[Eldan]

arnt some of the big devil like like Asemodues basically gods?

It depends on which books and which fluff you use. Planescape? Yes, they are basically divine. Gates of Hell? More than epic. Better than most non-Dicefreaks gods. Fiendish codices? Depends on how you interpret the Serpent. Book of Vile Darkness? Laughably weak.

And of course Devils are infinite... where are people getting that finite idea? :smallconfused: I mean, how could a finite number of creatures rule an infinite plane?

[FMArthur]

The demons win in such a conflict.

[Gnorman]

+1 to "Demons are infinite, devils aren't" AFAIK

That would be the difference between theoretically infinite and practically infinite.

[Jack_Simth]

I thought that Devils were finite and DEMONS were infinite.
Both are infinite. One occupies (fully) an infinite number of finite planes, the other occupies (fully) a finite number of infinite planes. Otherwise, the blood war would have had a clear victor by now.

[Eldan]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that at least some layers of the Abyss are infinite as well.

[Urpriest]

Perhaps a way to describe it would be that devils are countably infinite, while demons are uncountably infinite? There's definitely the implication that demons are somehow more infinite than devils, and this would be a way to quantize that.

[Eldan]

That's the way I've usually heard it, yes. There was also the version that Devils are Aleph 0, while Demons are Aleph 1.

[Godskook]

As I understand the count on devils and demons, there are Aleph0 devils and Aleph1 demons in D&D.


(For those of you who don't want to get hip-deep in math, I'll just say that Aleph0 and Aleph1 are both numbers that are *REALLY* big, both being in the realm of what the layman calls infinite, but Aleph1 is bigger. For those that do, I warn that you will never know the majesty of Gumdrop Mountain. That is the curse for our hubris; to delve into the deep secrets, ignoring Plumpy's warning)

[Callos_DeTerran]

Depends. 3.5 or 4e? Dicefreaks or canon?

The difference is less important then you think. Asmodeus, even in 'canon', wields god-like power in the Nine Hells, even if he isn't actually a god. The same could be said for each Arch-Devil on their own layer.

As for who would win...that's a very difficult question. The lowest ethergaunt soldier known about (the Reds) were around CR 9-13 if I remember correctly, had good casting, and ignored magic below a certain level. Not too good at melee, but doesn't need to be. It only gets worse going up from there. The Khen'zai also bear the advantage that EACH of them can enslave some of the enemy. Would that be easy? No. But it's something to factor in.

But I believe devils have superior numbers (by a number of orders in fact) and they aren't that much worse off in the intelligence department. I honestly can't say who'd win...too many factors like how many red/white/black/unknown-color ethergaunts are there? Do they bring any thrall with them? Will the arch-devils get involved? Where is this taking place? How is ethergaunt advanced technology represented (I usually just give them gear from d20 future to simplify matters)? Which origin of devils is being used? Where are they fighting?

...I do think it'd be one helluva war and would love to watch it though...from a safe safe distance of course.

[akma]

What is the Ethergaunts CR and exectly how high is their inteligence?

[BeholderSlayer]

What is the Ethergaunts CR and exectly how high is their inteligence?

17 (too low, IMO) and 31 INT. They have some strong Su abilities.

[akma]

Unless they will get the means to blow up hell (which would be epic), they will have no chance against infinite number of devils.
And an infinite plane doesn`t need to be occupied in every spot of it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Unless they will get the means to blow up hell (which would be epic), they will have no chance against infinite number of devils.
And an infinite plane doesn`t need to be occupied in every spot of it.

Er...there ISN'T an infinite number of devils. There's some arbitarily large number of devils, but it's not infinite. Aside from that, superior tactics and weaponry can go a long way to closing the gap between numbers.

And the CR given was for a Black Ethergaunt.........Speaking of, I could have sworn that Dragon Magazine or some brave homebrewer out there started doing an Ethergaunt project, including some Ethergaunt tech and more colors.

[akma]

Er...there ISN'T an infinite number of devils. There's some arbitarily large number of devils, but it's not infinite. Aside from that, superior tactics and weaponry can go a long way to closing the gap between numbers.

Still, the number of devils is so much bigger then the number of Ethergaunts that it will be almost impossible to close the gap. And some devils are stronger then CR 17.

[awa]

Still, the number of devils is so much bigger then the number of Ethergaunts that it will be almost impossible to close the gap. And some devils are stronger then CR 17.

the problem their is wizards does not understand cr. level 20 monk is the same cr as a level 20 druid and his t rex put together.

just comparing cr is not going to get you anywhere

[Eldan]

Which isn't really relevant, though: the highest ethergaunts cast as L17 (I think) wizards for their CR 17, while having 31 intelligence. If we allow even semi-cheesey magic, there can be a few hundred ways for them to wipe the floor with a Pit Fiend.

And yes, there are infinite numbers of devils. The books specifically say so. And, I might add, there would be no way for a finite number of creatures to control an infinite plane.

[Callos_DeTerran]

And yes, there are infinite numbers of devils. The books specifically say so. And, I might add, there would be no way for a finite number of creatures to control an infinite plane.

I could have sworn that the DMG describes devils as, essentially, 'having such large numbers that people assume they are infinite'.

[Urpriest]

Which isn't really relevant, though: the highest ethergaunts cast as L17 (I think) wizards for their CR 17, while having 31 intelligence. If we allow even semi-cheesey magic, there can be a few hundred ways for them to wipe the floor with a Pit Fiend.

And yes, there are infinite numbers of devils. The books specifically say so. And, I might add, there would be no way for a finite number of creatures to control an infinite plane.

Nitpick: nothing in principle prevents a finite number of creatures from controlling an infinite plane. Asmodeus, for example, is a finite number of creatures. For that matter, so is any god, and most have Divinely Morphic (i.e. controlled by them) planes, many of which are infinite. It's occupying any infinite plane at finite population density that makes them infinite.

Anyway, neither side would simply exterminate the other through combat, so the question is moot. Ethergaunts would attack by attempting to dissolve the Pact Primeval, cut off the flow of souls, suborn a deity, or do something similarly evil-atheist themed, while devils would be more likely to divide the ethergaunts into pointless bickering and watch them implode, rather than wasting their infinite army on a non-infinite force.

[TheGeckoKing]

This is a good question, actually. Problem is, wouldn't Mechanicus and Celestia attack the Ethergaunts, so the Pact Primeval doesn't go kaput?
I always thought it was a vital job the devils did. And also, what would happen to the Blood War if the Devils died? Would the Ethergaunts be attacked by the Demons? Because if that happened, they WOULD be screwed.

[Arcane_Secrets]

I would regard it as inevitable that the archdevils will get involved. They have too much at stake to simply let either their servitors get mowed down endlessly or alternately, let so many worlds be destroyed/enslaved by the ethergaunts that it negatively impinges upon their soul accumulation.

I also think that the first battles in any kind of war between them are likely to occur on The Mortal Coil-where the ethergaunts have several advantages. It's easy for them to intrude from the Ethereal, and I'm guessing that even though it isn't actually stated explicitly, they've found ways of weakening the boundaries between the Ethereal and The Mortal Coil so that way they can just walk in with little or no trouble. In comparison, devils either need planeshifting capabilities or else they have to be summoned with either summon monster, planar ally, or gate spells. If the ethergaunts attack and enslave or annihilate the higher level spellcasters fairly quickly (which seems like a smart move for them anyways), they can make it extremely difficult for the devils to even reach that world in the first place-much less get reinforcements.

[Arcane_Secrets]

This is a good question, actually. Problem is, wouldn't Mechanicus and Celestia attack the Ethergaunts, so the Pact Primeval doesn't go kaput?
I always thought it was a vital job the devils did. And also, what would happen to the Blood War if the Devils died? Would the Ethergaunts be attacked by the Demons? Because if that happened, they WOULD be screwed.

The demons would definitely attack the ethergaunts, for similar motive as to why the devils would wage war with them. The catch is that the demons wouldn't attack the ethergaunts in any kind of unified fashion-which could either work out better or worse for the ethergaunts in that they'd have to face thousands of different kinds of threats at once, but even if one kind of attack proved more successful, it might not become widespread enough to allow the demons to win.

I also think that if The Blood War ended because the devils were taken out (as really unlikely as this is), the daemons/yugoloths would probably side with the demons. The demons are their customers/suckers/hosts for their parasitism, and it just isn't good for business to have them wiped out.

Celestia would definitely go to war against the ethergaunts (whether this was an openly taken decision or forced upon them), while Mechanus I suspect the ethergaunts would try and factionalize. They might try and make treaties with some groups to keep them out, while attacking other groups that are more explicitly threatening.

[Coidzor]

I thought that Devils were finite and DEMONS were infinite.

No it's that Demons are more and bigger in the pants in terms of being infinite than thou to the Devils.


This is a good question, actually. Problem is, wouldn't Mechanicus and Celestia attack the Ethergaunts, so the Pact Primeval doesn't go kaput?
I always thought it was a vital job the devils did. And also, what would happen to the Blood War if the Devils died? Would the Ethergaunts be attacked by the Demons? Because if that happened, they WOULD be screwed.

Heh, "Mechanus Bot versus the Hordes of the Ethergaunts."

Now that sounds like it'd be a nice comic.

[Tvtyrant]

In Tyrants of the Nine Hells it explicitly states that there are a finite number of Devils. That is why they defend while the Demons attack. There is even a rather lengthy explanation of how anti-demon tactics work.

In this case I would give it to the Devils though, as the Lemurs are proof against mind-control and are almost endless. You would literally have to carve your way through millions of them while the other Devils run damage control. Even the Pit Fiend versus super-gaunt example is fundamentally flawed, since there are dozens of Pit Fiends for each of them. Yes, lots of Devils would die and the Blood War would probably end with the Demons winning because of it, but the Devils would be the gaunts.

[Stallion]

Would depend on where the war took place. If the ethergaunts tried to take the Nine Hells, they would be constantly repelled for numerous reasons.

1) The Nine Hells is the ultimate example of defense in the name of evil. Every landscape on every plane has something hostile about it. Not only that, but the baatezu are not the only thing occupying them. I'm pretty sure Tiamat, the evil side of the Egyptian pantheon, all of the fallen celestials that haven't allied with the baatezu (Iblis and his followers come to mind) and any other occupants I've missed would have something to say about it.

2) I do believe there was a devil that had the unique ability of having a permanent antimagic field ingrained in it. I'm pretty sure if an invasionary force of mainly mage-like creatures penetrated the Nine Hells, Asmodeus would immediately begin augmenting these to uberness.

3) Asmodeus himself holds damn near absolute power down there. The changes to Mammon and Baalzebul, the imprisonment of Levistus, and the transformation of the Hag Countess into the Plane of Malbolge are all prime examples of this. And that's just citing the Fiendish Codex. Not to mention how in there all stats given are just for ASPECTS of each of the Archdukes. I'm sure the actual incarnations would be much more epicly powerful.



Anywhere else, however, I see it going very poorly for the devils.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Would depend on where the war took place. If the ethergaunts tried to take the Nine Hells, they would be constantly repelled for numerous reasons.

1) The Nine Hells is the ultimate example of defense in the name of evil. Every landscape on every plane has something hostile about it. Not only that, but the baatezu are not the only thing occupying them. I'm pretty sure Tiamat, the evil side of the Egyptian pantheon, all of the fallen celestials that haven't allied with the baatezu (Iblis and his followers come to mind) and any other occupants I've missed would have something to say about it.

2) I do believe there was a devil that had the unique ability of having a permanent antimagic field ingrained in it. I'm pretty sure if an invasionary force of mainly mage-like creatures penetrated the Nine Hells, Asmodeus would immediately begin augmenting these to uberness.

3) Asmodeus himself holds damn near absolute power down there. The changes to Mammon and Baalzebul, the imprisonment of Levistus, and the transformation of the Hag Countess into the Plane of Malbolge are all prime examples of this. And that's just citing the Fiendish Codex. Not to mention how in there all stats given are just for ASPECTS of each of the Archdukes. I'm sure the actual incarnations would be much more epicly powerful.



Anywhere else, however, I see it going very poorly for the devils.

These are good points; using Gates of Hell versions, it'd go even worse for the ethergaunts.

This is why I think that the ethergaunts' smarter strategy might not be trying to take the Nine Hells, as much as it might be attempting to quarantine them-and even this would be fantastically difficult. If Avernus was locked in a state where no creature could ever leave or enter it-including lawful evil souls that had recently died, while at the same time, Avernus was 'stuck' as the first layer of Hell without shifting to an adjacent plane, then given enough time this should be crippling to the devils. Devils engaged in The Blood War would be cut off from reinforcements-and Hell could no longer replenish its ranks. Other devils would be incapable of responding to summons, or fulfilling whatever agreements they made with mortals/collecting souls, diminishing their influence in the Prime.

[Urpriest]

Incidentally, the very existence of the devils seems like something the Ethergaunts wouldn't be prepared to accept. If they can't accept the existence of gods, the whole concept of the Pact Primeval wouldn't make sense to them, and they might even question the idea that there could be beings out there who are incarnations of concepts like Lawful Evil. I'm not sure which side this would put things on, maybe it would just make the question sillier.

[TheGeckoKing]

@Urpriest:
I want to see an Ethergaunt try to make a will save against a Pit Fiend's existance now :smallbiggrin:

As for trying to quarantine the 9 Hells, that would be........hard. Nigh on impossible, as i'm sure there would be an Inevitable sent to smack them down for trying. If one can be sent to make sure an Elder Evil is released on time, all the bargains disrupted would order for an army.

[Urpriest]

@Urpriest:
I want to see an Ethergaunt try to make a will save against a Pit Fiend's existance now :smallbiggrin:


Heh. Just have one of them talk to a master of Iron Heart.

IRON HEART SURGE TO END THE NINE HELLS!

[Beelzebub1111]

I think that they're smart enough not to mount a direct attack on devils, just as devils are smart enough to not go vaulting into the etherial plane to get at them.

Ethergaunts, though, have the distinct advantage of being able to use insiders. A captured Kyton, Enrynes, or even a Cornugon turned slave could do wonders for sabotage, fighting other devils in their place. Investigation leads to the Ether.

If the Devils of smart, they'll just deal with the occasional lost devil every now and again, but if they're stupid they'll try to "Deal with the problem before it gets out of hand" by attacking the gaunts on their own turf. Where they have all their technology, all their numbers, and are prepared for anything resembling an invasion.

[Tael]

Ethergaunts. All it takes is one Ethergaunt to hit Epic, and Hell is dead. Ethergaunts have both the ridiculous Int and ability to pull off huge scale high optimization plans, and with just a few more hit dice, the get Epic magic, and a ridiculous amount of reducers on their spells (millions of other high level casts co-operating.)

[Urpriest]

Ethergaunts. All it takes is one Ethergaunt to hit Epic, and Hell is dead. Ethergaunts have both the ridiculous Int and ability to pull off huge scale high optimization plans, and with just a few more hit dice, the get Epic magic, and a ridiculous amount of reducers on their spells (millions of other high level casts co-operating.)

Some versions of the Archdevils have a similar level of ability though. Dicefreaks pegs Dispater as a 76th level abjurer or something stupid like that.

[Scorpions__]

I see the devils as far superior in terms of espionage, Asmodeus probably has several moles under extreme abjuration working within the ethergaunts just in case, if the ethergaunts were ever to attack, it would only be because Asmodeus wanted them too.





DM[F]R

[BeholderSlayer]

Some versions of the Archdevils have a similar level of ability though. Dicefreaks pegs Dispater as a 76th level abjurer or something stupid like that.

IIRC that's only when he's within the Iron Tower...or Fortress...or whatever his big building is called.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Incidentally, the very existence of the devils seems like something the Ethergaunts wouldn't be prepared to accept. If they can't accept the existence of gods, the whole concept of the Pact Primeval wouldn't make sense to them, and they might even question the idea that there could be beings out there who are incarnations of concepts like Lawful Evil. I'm not sure which side this would put things on, maybe it would just make the question sillier.

I...don't see that. The ethergaunts have rationalized the divine out of their world view, not to the point that they don't believe it exists, but to the point they expunge it where-ever they can. They have NOT rationalized the existence of other extra-planar creatures out of their world-view, despite their isolationist nature.

[Boci]

And, I might add, there would be no way for a finite number of creatures to control an infinite plane.

But aren't the nine planes of hell a finite space in an infinite void?

[TheDarkDM]

As far as the numbers question, I doubt the Ethergaunts have anywhere near the millions postulated earlier. Fiend Folio explicitly states that the largest Ethergaunt communities have at most ten blacks, fifty white, and five hundred reds. A terrifying task for any adventurer, yes, but even one thousand of those communities (which stretches credulity to the limit), is less that one million Ethergaunts in total, compared to the Devils whose daily casualties in the Blood War are said to number in the millions. And while their technology is of course entirely depending on what DM is portraying them, the best presented in Fiend Folio is roughly equal to our own.

Now, as for tactics, the success of either party is very depended on which plane is the battlefield. I agree that the Ethergaunts would have an advantage on the Ethereal Plane, but even so, one has to remember that the Devils are led by generals who have literally centuries of experience fighting an ever shifting, infinite force, one of whom has been commanding since the beginning of the Blood War. Thus, while the Black Ethergaunts have a clear advantage in sheer intelligence, I think it premature to claim they would have superior tactics to an enemy that has been fighting literally since the beginning of time.

As to an epic Black taking out an Archdevil, the death of the lords 1 - 8 wouldn't make much difference, as each has a myriad of lieutenants capable of replacing them for Asmodeus to choose from. And as far as wondering if the Ethergaunts could destroy Asmodeus...that could very well be impossible, depending on which source you believe. At the very least, they'd be facing Asmodeus, the other Lords of the Nine he can summon at will, and his reserve army of five million max hp Pit Fiends.

With all that taken into account, I can't see the Ethergaunts emerging victorious, especially since the upper planes would rally to aid the Devils in order to keep them fighting the Blood War and holding the Demons in check. Even the Yugoloths would likely pitch in, as almost all their profit stems from the eternal stalemate between the Demons and the Devils.

[Amiel]

Some very excellent points and ideas, all :)


That depends on a few things, I think:

a) How powerful are you willing to assume unique devils can get, and how cheesy is ethergaunt magic allowed to become?

I think my initial assessment limited the extent of inclusion of the diabolical hierarchy insofar as the nobility was concerned. The nobility would be drawn into the conflict only if their portfolios (governance, domination of others et al) were threatened. The balance of instigator and participator would be comprised of those devils involved in the Forever War.

These devils - those belonging to the Host of the Pit - would seek to re-educate the ethergaunts in any way possible, as long as it did not devolve into chaos and illogicality.
I think HD advanced unique devils would be involved, these would clarify the direction of the war for the armies of Perdition, and play the role of generals/ war-masters/task masters/slave drivers.

Although, if we are allowing unique devils to be present, I think we should also allow unique ethergaunts as well. What do you and others think?

I think we can reasonably limit the amount of cheesiness on both sides of the conflict; although with their vast intellectual capacity, the ethergaunts will utilise the arcane in an exceedingly efficient manner.


A Pit Fiend would lose horribly to the highest Ethergaunt: one has a handful of spell-like abilities, though admittedly wish is among them, the other can cast as a 17th level wizard with godlike intelligence.

A good thing about spell-likes, though, is that they require no material and spell components; and as insofar as devil spell-likes are concerned, are infinitely castable. The ethergaunts, on the other hand, will be limited by the number of spells able to be cast per day (unless they prepare the rope trick trick).

The pit fiend, for example, could endlessly ping the ethergaunt with greater dispel magic and mass hold monster.

I'm also unsure whether ethergaunts are capable of breaching the DR and regeneration of pit fiends, or of the other devils.


b) How do the numbers compare? We don't really know how many Ethergaunts there are. They ruled the prime once, but that could mean a lot of things. One Prime world? All Prime Worlds? Spacejammer space and all crystal spheres, much like the Illithid? The devils rule an infinite plane, and they are infinite. That would be quite a problem for the Ethergaunts if they weren't.

I would agree with Flickerdart, if not for the fact that devils are infinite in number, and that there are more of them whenever a lawful evil mortal dies. So that would require some extremely cheesy magic to wipe them all out.

I thought that Devils were finite and DEMONS were infinite.

It depends on which books and which fluff you use. Planescape? Yes, they are basically divine. Gates of Hell? More than epic. Better than most non-Dicefreaks gods. Fiendish codices? Depends on how you interpret the Serpent. Book of Vile Darkness? Laughably weak.
And of course Devils are infinite... where are people getting that finite idea? :smallconfused: I mean, how could a finite number of creatures rule an infinite plane?

That would be the difference between theoretically infinite and practically infinite.

Both are infinite. One occupies (fully) an infinite number of finite planes, the other occupies (fully) a finite number of infinite planes. Otherwise, the blood war would have had a clear victor by now.

Perhaps a way to describe it would be that devils are countably infinite, while demons are uncountably infinite? There's definitely the implication that demons are somehow more infinite than devils, and this would be a way to quantize that.

As I understand the count on devils and demons, there are Aleph0 devils and Aleph1 demons in D&D.

I was actually thinking of having the conflict take place in a "neutral plane", so it won't be inherently disadvantageous or disadvantageous for either devils and ethergaunts. This'll also cause both participants to bring their strengths to the fore, and think exceedingly strategically and tactically. I think some members will underestimate their opponents.
Slaves will be a must on both sides.

How many numbers is a good question and point; I think the ethergaunts will suffer a bit from lack of numbers, but (possibly) not lack of power.
I also like to think that the devils have been and will continue to hold their own in the Forever Conflict despite a finite number; there may be 999 trillion involved in the Forever Conflict.


c) How good is Ethergaunt technology? I gave them tech of pretty much high-end science fiction proportions, disintegration cannons, nanorobotics, FTL drives, but most of that can be replicated by magic. What can it do?

They'll probably have access to some pretty advanced technology, I wouldn't say that they would have access to FTL, but certainly thought disruption bombs, null replicator fields (nullifying divine magic), scarabs of healing, et al.


More coming after the forum back-up.


EDIT: Actually, what about pitting the ethergaunts against the PF devils (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/devil.html#devil)?

[Tvtyrant]

I agree with the above post indicating gaunt-failure. They ain't gaunt what it takes to bedevil the Devils.

[Eldan]

Heh. Just have one of them talk to a master of Iron Heart.

IRON HEART SURGE TO END THE NINE HELLS!

I think the Ethergaunts could make pretty good Believers of the Source, if they weren't Athar already.

"No. No, there are no gods. Not in my reality. Neither is there such a thing as belief."

[Eldan]

Although, if we are allowing unique devils to be present, I think we should also allow unique ethergaunts as well. What do you and others think?

The Fiend Folio makes it seem as though the blacks are already pretty much unique. There exist probably only a few hundred of them.



The pit fiend, for example, could endlessly ping the ethergaunt with greater dispel magic and mass hold monster.

The problem with those is that a high-level wizard, especially one with unfathomable intelligence, can work around them. Freedom of Movement should really be a standard, as should immunities to most energy forms and death effects. Dispel magic is annoying, but there's ways around that too. Contingencies. Time Stop. Foresight to win initiative.



I'm also unsure whether ethergaunts are capable of breaching the DR and regeneration of pit fiends, or of the other devils.


I'd assume with so many high-level casters, they could make pretty much every magic item necessary.

[Amiel]

Ethergaunts would obviously win. After all, they're more awesomesauce than plain, old devils! :smallbiggrin:

Ethergaunts are indeed cooler than devils; and they have a distinct uniqueness to them, devils feel a tad too "same-y". The ethergaunt is a rather elegant marriage of horrific inspiration and worthy flavour.


Honestly, I would give it to the Ethergaunts. A few Blacks getting together and paying a visit to a Devil Prince would end very poorly for the fiend, after which everyone else in the Abyss would pounce on the power vacuum. Rinse and repeat until everything that could be a threat is dead.

By devil prince, do you mean duke of hell, or even higher, a Lord of the Nine?
Will it end that poorly for the devils? Even those sitting upon a higher echelon? Those placed higher up in the vast and perfect machinery of Perdition may also have enacted contingencies, myriad fail-safes et al - being hyper-vigilant against potential and completed usurpation.


Don't you mean, All that is Awesome vs Cheesy Aliens in my D&D?

The ethergaunts may like a word with you :-P


Not quite.

Besides, if you wipe out the infrastructure of soul-energy harvesting, the Lords lose their power to promote whatever soldiers they can get, and with enough attacks the devils' defenses might be breached by the demons-allowing the Ethergaunts to pop in a wipe out strategic target X while the demons rampage through the weakened layers.

+1 to "Demons are infinite, devils aren't" AFAIK

I actually subscribe to the school of thought that defines the power of Hell as separate to any benefit gained through the procurement of soul harvesting. As the origin and terminus of Lawful Evil within the defined cosmos, all manner of lawful evil souls wind up on and in Perdition (well, those who do not actively worship or venerate a divine or cosmic patron).
Perdition may benefit to a degree from the siphoning of soul energy and the promotion of mortals to greater forms, but it - like the rest of the cosmos - are considerably older than the mortal coil. Its operations are such that the cessation of mortal souls will not necessarily diminish Hell in a substantial way, and perhaps the devils use these mortal souls as ammunition or currency anyway.
Devils may also be birthed from the bleeding husk of the Serpent immobile in the depths of Nessus.

[Eldan]

Actually, I'm with the school of thought that says that Baatezu are made from the souls of mortals. However, if the influx of souls would stop, the Baatezu could no longer hinder the development of Ancient Baatorians from Nuperibo (which some sources suggest are their larval forms) or prevent the reawakening of the already present Baatorians.

And, well, then the Ethergaunt are screwed.

[Amiel]

Interesting, will this mean that the devils in your cosmology are old insofar only as the mortal coil (well, prime material plane rather) is concerned?
Would this also mean that the ethergaunts may be considerably more ancient? The ethergaunts may have had practice in engagements with fiends.

[Eldan]

Hmm. Yes, Devils are about as old as mortals. Asmodeus may or may not be a much older cosmic evil.

Ethergaunts, though... they are clearly a mortal species originating on the prime. However, the question is how old they are. I think I've already mentioned that, in my world, I mixed them up with 40ks Necrons a little. An interesting part of that (and one I didn't think of before) could be that Ethergaunts, in addition to having no faith, also have no souls which could go to the outer planes in the first place. So they could actually predate belief-dependent planar races.

Oh, and to make this even more complicated, I'll put one of my favourite quotes from the Neverending story here (paraphrased, then translated): "Since tonight, this has always been here."
Basically: the outer planes consist of the belief of mortals. But if mortals believe that the outer planes are older than they are, the planes have been there before them :smallwink:

[Tokuhara]

In a neutral battlefield, it depends entirely on the terrain.

In a rough and rugged-type plane, I give my thumbs up to the Devils (ironically), since while lower in intellect, devils are tacticians first: Remember Asmodeus's last words to Clestia: "Always read the fine print." Devils would probably try and fight from the high ground, using the terrain to their advantage, whereas the Ethergaunts, who while brilliant, are not military strategists. Eons of warfare on a shifting plane has taught Devils to face an enemy with the least-fair tactics.

In a flatland, I give it to Ethergaunts, since they fall into a quality standpoint. Yes, the devils have neigh infinite soldiers (my answer to the debate finite or infinite), but Ethergaunts would likely use guerrilla-type tactics in a face-off to outflank their vastly larger and questionably stronger foes. Yes, the devils would use intelligence, as in espionage, to their advantage, but with limited terrain to utilize, it'd end poorly for them.

Speaking of the Blood War, I see it as a battle of Quality (devils) vs. Quantity (Demons). 1 devil (say Pit Fiend) is worth like 100 of their Demon Counterpart (Balor) in a military POV.

[Grey Paladin]

You forget 3 out of the 9 Archdevils are hiiiiiiiiigh epic Wizards too, which had since, more or less, the dawn of time to do whatever they want and wield godlike power in their own realms (Asmodeus is actually stated to be omnipotent (free Wish at will) while in Nessus in some sources).

You cannot assume the gaunts are optimized if you do not let the devils pull the same tricks (which they would if we are playing like that).

The question is this: can any force break into the lair of three optimized, nigh-omnipotent epic wizards that had millions of years to prepare and do what they want?

Once you get epic magic involved all of these discussions turn to unstoppable force meets immovable object.

If we avoid cheese, devils win through numbers and the higher lords being WTFPWNOMGBBQ.

[Tokuhara]

You forget 3 out of the 9 Archdevils are hiiiiiiiiigh epic Wizards too, which had since, more or less, the dawn of time to do whatever they want and wield godlike power in their own realms (Asmodeus is actually stated to be omnipotent (free Wish at will) while in Nessus in some sources).

You cannot assume the gaunts are optimized if you do not let the devils pull the same tricks (which they would if we are playing like that).

The question is this: can any force break into the lair of three optimized, nigh-omnipotent epic wizards that had millions of years to prepare and do what they want?

Once you get epic magic involved all of these discussions turn to unstoppable force meets immovable object.

If we avoid cheese, devils win through numbers and the higher lords being WTFPWNOMGBBQ.

Hence why I shied away from including magic and put it in a battle-scenario.

I compared the tactics of both races (in a sense of Ethergaunts vs Devils, not going too terribly deep into each subrace) and determined that in rough terrain, devils get the advantage purely through superior tactics, whereas on flat and level, the gaunts have the clear advantage, since its using their superior abilities, even without casting, to outflank the devils

[TheDarkDM]

Hence why I shied away from including magic and put it in a battle-scenario.

I compared the tactics of both races (in a sense of Ethergaunts vs Devils, not going too terribly deep into each subrace) and determined that in rough terrain, devils get the advantage purely through superior tactics, whereas on flat and level, the gaunts have the clear advantage, since its using their superior abilities, even without casting, to outflank the devils

How do you outflank a force that can Greater Teleport at will?

[Coidzor]

How do you outflank a force that can Greater Teleport at will?

time stop?

[Tokuhara]

Personally speaking, I looked at each group w/out casting/SLAs first to see the tactical possibilities.

To answer the outflank question, one must remember that while most devils can, a few cannot (mostly the lower CR "mooks"), thus the vast majority of the forces could be outflanked. To combat Greater Teleport at will, I say that 100 or so Ethergaunts collectively casting AoE spells, such as Meteor Swarm/ect. could cause massive casualties to the Devil forces. Again, this is if it is a minimal-cover battlefield. If not, the Devils would press the advantage of using terrain to their advantage. Think of Devils as the Roman Army vs the Ethergaunt Forces as Israeli Commandos. One is many leaders and even more soldiers, while the other is few elite with no soldiers

[Beelzebub1111]

How do you outflank a force that can Greater Teleport at will?
Enslaving those who can greater teleport at will? Even the weakest ones can have one slave of their own.

[TheDarkDM]

Personally speaking, I looked at each group w/out casting/SLAs first to see the tactical possibilities.

To answer the outflank question, one must remember that while most devils can, a few cannot (mostly the lower CR "mooks"), thus the vast majority of the forces could be outflanked. To combat Greater Teleport at will, I say that 100 or so Ethergaunts collectively casting AoE spells, such as Meteor Swarm/ect. could cause massive casualties to the Devil forces. Again, this is if it is a minimal-cover battlefield. If not, the Devils would press the advantage of using terrain to their advantage. Think of Devils as the Roman Army vs the Ethergaunt Forces as Israeli Commandos. One is many leaders and even more soldiers, while the other is few elite with no soldiers

Well, I don't think we can analyze the battle without casting or SLA's because those are the only things giving the Ethergaunts a shot, given their vast physical and numerical inferiority.

However, as to your point about mooks, it is correct to a point. However, the Orthon, a CR9 shock trooper, can Greater Teleport at will. As a relatively common soldier, one must assume that there would be many hundreds of thousands in our hypothetical Devil army, supported by more elite units of Gelugons, Cornugons, and Osyluths, also with Greater Teleport. The sheer numbers of these forces, coupled with the ranged touch attack capability of the Orthons, would largely mitigate a massed AoE barrage. Also, considering the Devil's immunity to fire, most of the more reliable AoE's (fireball, meteor swarm, etc.) are useless without metamagic, and while the Blacks may have such spells prepared, the Whites and Reds are far less likely to.

Even with all that, the regular mooks of the Baatezu armies are prety much designed to take massed artillery beatings. While the millions of Lemures would likely perish, the shared health pools of the Legion Devils acting as their spine would ensure that most would survive, be healed by the various clerics attending them, and close on the enemy.

This is all of course ignoring the vast machines of war the Devils would bring with them, from Hellfire Engines to magically aware siege engines to traditional trebuchets and ballistae. Meanwhile, the nihilistic megalomania of the Ethergaunts makes it unlikely they would depend on any technology larger than what they can carry, given their impressive arcane might. This all combines to make me think the Ethergaunts would be at an even greater disadvantage on an open field, as they would be far more susceptible to Devilish artillery than the Devils would be to theirs. Using your own metaphor, one highly trained commando is worth far more than a normal grunt, and even if the casualties were 10 to 1 in the Ethergaunt's favor (highly unlikely), the Devils would still come out ahead.

However, the entirety of this argument ignores the fact that Devils would never engage an enemy on equal terms, and that most Infernal commanders would simply withdraw to a more favorable position before initiating combat, something the Ethergaunts are less likely to do given their pride and relative inexperience in massed warfare.

[Eldan]

I'd doubt that either Cornugons or Osyluths would show up in an open field battle, they have much more specialized roles, the first as bodyguards of devil nobles, the second as basically secret police force. Maybe guarding the general personally, or as assassin squads, but not in rank and file, certainly.

[TheDarkDM]

I'd doubt that either Cornugons or Osyluths would show up in an open field battle, they have much more specialized roles, the first as bodyguards of devil nobles, the second as basically secret police force. Maybe guarding the general personally, or as assassin squads, but not in rank and file, certainly.

You have a point about the Osyluths. And indeed, I did not mean to suggest the Cornugons would be rank and file, but simply that their presence on the battlefield as death squads would further hinder any guerrilla strategies used by the Ethergaunts.

[Tokuhara]

So on a Tactics point, the Devils have an advantage on most terrains?

[TheDarkDM]

So on a Tactics point, the Devils have an advantage on most terrains?

Pretty much, except for the Ethereal Plane, which is Ethergaunt home turf.

[Eldan]

What gives the devils an advantage is that they can Teleport without error and have superior numbers.

The Teleport, however, can be negated, by Dimensional Anchors, anticipate teleport, etc.

[Tokuhara]

Pretty much, except for the Ethereal Plane, which is Ethergaunt home turf.

and even then, Home Turf Advantage only helps in few cases (Nine Hells is one of those cases)

Plus, I forgot to include Templated Devils, such as Blood Fiend Pit Fiends (aka, Huge Vampire Devils) and the occasional Paragon

[hamishspence]

FC2 downgrades the size of the Nine Hells some- they may be floating in infinite space, but each layer is really not that big.

The widest (Avernus) appears on the diagram, to be around 12000 or so miles wide.

The smallest (Nessus) appears to be roughly 1000 by 2000 miles (on a larger diagram showing that layer).

So- with limited space to work with, the numbers of devils may be a lot smaller than Aleph-0.

[TheDarkDM]

What gives the devils an advantage is that they can Teleport without error and have superior numbers.

The Teleport, however, can be negated, by Dimensional Anchors, anticipate teleport, etc.

Well, that and the millenia of actual battlefield experience compared to the Ethergaunts' millenia hiding on the Ethereal Plane and plotting to kill gods. :smalltongue:

As for negating the teleportation ability, it is indeed possible, but those options have either a limited applicability or range, so I'm not sure how continuously effective they'd be as the battle wore on.

[Eldan]

Templates I'd be careful with... the devils get an advantage in this fight really, which is a little unfair: they have much, much more material posted about them. There is no Book of Rampant Atheism, or an Ethereal Codex, otherwise we'd probably have a few examples of Ethergaunt technology other than small rayguns.

[Eldan]

FC2 downgrades the size of the Nine Hells some- they may be floating in infinite space, but each layer is really not that big.

The widest (Avernus) appears on the diagram, to be around 12000 or so miles wide.

The smallest (Nessus) appears to be roughly 1000 by 2000 miles (on a larger diagram showing that layer).

So- with limited space to work with, the numbers of devils may be a lot smaller than Aleph-0.

That's why I'm ignoring the Fiendish Codices for the most part :smallwink:
Another prolbem with this contest: the Ethergaunt lack canon, the devils have too much of it, which contradicts itself wildly all the time.

[Coidzor]

Other than concentration of forces and intimacy with the terrain, what advantages do the two sides have on their home turf?

The first layer of hell, Avernus(?) is a giant fortress layer and would have potential for demonic interruptions, IIRC. Does one also have to come here first if planeshifting to Hell?

One of the layers is primarily a giant devil city, with all the unpleasantness of urban warfare.

The bottom layer is Asmodeus's even more personal play thing with legions of elite pit fiends so going there is tantamount to suicide.

Can't remember the rest of the layers of hell offhand or what the Etherguants have in the Ethereal.

[Eldan]

One always goes to the first layer of a plane when planeshifting. So yes, first stop Avernus for everyone not Gating.

Later on, there's ice, fire, swamp, ocean...

[Beelzebub1111]

Templates I'd be careful with... the devils get an advantage in this fight really, which is a little unfair: they have much, much more material posted about them. There is no Book of Rampant Atheism, or an Ethereal Codex, otherwise we'd probably have a few examples of Ethergaunt technology other than small rayguns.
Can't forget the hand grenades that make you sad.

[TheDarkDM]

One always goes to the first layer of a plane when planeshifting. So yes, first stop Avernus for everyone not Gating.

Later on, there's ice, fire, swamp, ocean...

Well, the Ethergaunts would have to gate in really if they were to make a go of it. So they get to decide between:

Avernus: The fortress layer of the entire plane, which has never been breached in the entirety of the Blood War.

Dis: A city so hot it deals fire damage from walking, ruled by an Archfiend even more defensively minded than the lord of the first.

Minauros: A swamp filled with carnivorous things the Devils are afraid of, acid rain, and poison, dotted with isolated, though massive, cities.

Phlegethos: A plane even hotter than Dis, riven by constant tremors and volcanoes.

Stygia: A giant ocean connected to the river Styx where massive glaciers grind against each other with unnatural speed.

Malboge: A living plane dotted with putrescent forests and ruled by Asmodeus' daughter.

Maladomini: A plane covered in ruins.

Cania: A plane so cold it penetrates cold resistance, ruled over by the lord of Hellfire.

Nessus: Asmodeus' realm. Don't go there.

And each of these has at least one notable deity living there who pays rent to the Devils and would likely join in a defense against a race of homicidal atheists.

All that considered, Maladomini would probably be the best bet, lacking any inherently hostile environment, but any beachhead would have to contend with counterattacks by the lords of the Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth, as well as Asmodeus taking the field earlier than usual to protect his and his daughter's interests.

[Tvtyrant]

Not to mention that eventually the good deities would hop in to save the devils. They need the devils to keep the demons back, so.. Yeah.

Even more fun would be if the Gaunts attacked the first circle at the same time a Demon army did. Cue massive three sided battle of pure win.

[Amiel]

Depends. 3.5 or 4e? Dicefreaks or canon?

That's a good point; which canon do folks wish to use? Or should we capture the canon that best suits?
I'm also leaning towards a conflict between PF devils and FF ethergaunts.


As for who would win...that's a very difficult question. The lowest ethergaunt soldier known about (the Reds) were around CR 9-13 if I remember correctly, had good casting, and ignored magic below a certain level. Not too good at melee, but doesn't need to be. It only gets worse going up from there. The Khen'zai also bear the advantage that EACH of them can enslave some of the enemy. Would that be easy? No. But it's something to factor in.

...I do think it'd be one helluva war and would love to watch it though...from a safe safe distance of course.
It is indeed shaping up as a Hell of a conflict (no pun intended of course); participants on both sides may have a Hell of a time in store for them; those belonging to catering emporiums would indeed make a killing.
When you mention that the ethergaunt rank and file ignores magic below a certain level, is this a blanket immunity to spells, or is this moreso akin to the spell resistance possessed by most outsiders?
If it is a blanket immunity, this may mean that a devil's spell-likes may be nigh on useless, even if they are able to be infinitely "cast".
The devils may find the conflict to be one wherein engagements are purely physical.


But I believe devils have superior numbers (by a number of orders in fact) and they aren't that much worse off in the intelligence department. I honestly can't say who'd win...too many factors like how many red/white/black/unknown-color ethergaunts are there? Do they bring any thrall with them? Will the arch-devils get involved? Where is this taking place? How is ethergaunt advanced technology represented (I usually just give them gear from d20 future to simplify matters)? Which origin of devils is being used? Where are they fighting?

Good questions all.
I'll include my own thoughts, but would like to read what others think as well :)
Similarly, how many ethergaunts should get involved? Would all ethergaunts get involved? Do you think this conflict would consume all devils, or merely a number of them belonging to denominations?
Jealously may drive the motivations of both races.
Devils have a habit of driving cannon fodder before them to soak up and cause collateral damage. These are the lemures of the Nine Hells and are immune to mind-affecting abilities. The ethergaunts and their thralls would need to wade through such numbers to have at the meat of the problem.

I was thinking of having this conflict take place on neutral terrain, so no undue advantage is bestowed upon a particular combatant; it'd also make for an entertaining spectacle.


And the CR given was for a Black Ethergaunt.........Speaking of, I could have sworn that Dragon Magazine or some brave homebrewer out there started doing an Ethergaunt project, including some Ethergaunt tech and more colors.
Are you perhaps thinking of the extremely well written treatise on ethergaunts (being an exploration of their origins et al) by Mechalich?


What is the Ethergaunts CR and exectly how high is their inteligence?

The highest caste, the Blacks, had CRs hovering around 17 (as mentioned); I'm actually of the opinion that this should be re-evaluated as CR 20 to reflect the strength of their strong Su abilities (as mentioned).


Anyway, neither side would simply exterminate the other through combat, so the question is moot. Ethergaunts would attack by attempting to dissolve the Pact Primeval, cut off the flow of souls, suborn a deity, or do something similarly evil-atheist themed, while devils would be more likely to divide the ethergaunts into pointless bickering and watch them implode, rather than wasting their infinite army on a non-infinite force.

Yes, I would agree that devils, being incredibly devious, may would manipulate and rouse the inclination of others to fight on their behalf. Devils have a talent for the spoken word and heavily favour Bluff (if not Diplomancy; Devils never explicitly lie). Perhaps the ethergaunts may find substantial armies comprised not of devils but of "lesser foes" waiting for them?



Incidently, how would the respective fear auras/powers possessed by the ethergaunts and devils interact with the other?
Both radiate supernatural fear, and both possess rather strong Will.


EDIT: Speaking of tactics, I think that the devils (especially the higher CR devils) would make a habit of fighting in conflicts/skirmishes et al wherein antimagic fields feature prominently. This may weaken the ethergaunts somewhat.

[Eldan]

Their magic immunity is indeed a blanket immunity, similar to a Globe of Invulnerability, but to higher levels.

The only write-up I remember was one that was linked on Planewalker, I think it was by Rip himself.

If we bring allies in, I'd assume that Yugoloth, Modrons, a few Archons and maybe even a few members of the Order of Planes Militant and the Harmonium would be willing to fight on the devils side, along with probably about half the gods of law out there, while pretty much no one would be willing to help the Ethergaunts. Maybe the most militant Athar, but I doubt it. This shifts the entire business massively towars the devils.


Question: how would this setup change if part of the devils moved to the Spire in the Outlands, where no magic at all functions? Suddenly we have weakened, but still physically strong devils against Ethergaunts who have been turned into commoners.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Their magic immunity is indeed a blanket immunity, similar to a Globe of Invulnerability, but to higher levels.

Up to level 7 (I think) for Blacks.


If we bring allies in, I'd assume that Yugoloth, Modrons, a few Archons and maybe even a few members of the Order of Planes Militant and the Harmonium would be willing to fight on the devils side, along with probably about half the gods of law out there, while pretty much no one would be willing to help the Ethergaunts. Maybe the most militant Athar, but I doubt it. This shifts the entire business massively towars the devils.

I don't believe it was suggested that allies be brought in, but rather it was asked how one of the ethergaunts specific abilities (Enslave) would be utilized. There's no information given on what kind of thralls the ethergaunt prefer or how they acquire them, so we need to determine as much ourselves. Will they just pick and choose from the devil forces (And with their high int and ranks in Know. (planes), they'll certainly know which devils are likely the most susceptible to Enslave). More importantly....WOULD those forces come to the aid of devils? The yugoloth's are entirely mercenary and can be bought off. The archons might not mind the ethergaunts taking the devil's place in the Blood War (even if the Ethergaunts have no intention of doing such a thing) and I don't know who the Athar or Harmonium are. I don't see Mechanius getting involved though. I mean...the devils are CONSTANTLY under assault and Mechanus (to my knowledge) has NEVER stepped in to help them out, no matter how desperate things might have seemed at one point.

More importantly, there is a readily acceptable source of recruits for ethergaunts...devil-haters. Adventurers, demons, etc. Any one who's been cheesed off by devils could conceivably be offered the chance at revenge. Thus opening the door to madness which is why I suggest we stick to just determining what the ethergaunts might have enslaved. :smallwink:



Question: how would this setup change if part of the devils moved to the Spire in the Outlands, where no magic at all functions? Suddenly we have weakened, but still physically strong devils against Ethergaunts who have been turned into commoners.

The ethergaunts would lose. Badly. Which is probably why they wouldn't fight the devils there. And heck, if the diabolic forces are waiting in the Outlands for an army that's never going to show up, then why not go for the throat and assault the depleted hells?

&Amiel: It might be..do you have a link to it? And again, it's a bit of a cop-out, but how are we determining the advanced tech of the Ethergaunts? what do they get in that regard? It's a BIG question that no one has really given an answer on. (I stand by my suggestion of just picking a PL from d20 future and giving them access to technology from there. It's not over-balancing in a D&D world but it's still effective.)

[Zen Monkey]

If a member of an infinite force has the capacity to do even a single point of damage to the finite force, then the infinite force wins. That's just what's implied by necessity when dealing with anything infinite. Even if an ethergaunt is only damaged by one out of every twenty, hundred, or even million attacks by the devils, then an infinite amount of devils will kill that ethergaunt. With an infinite number of enemies, the fact that you can be hurt means that you will be hurt, without exception. No matter how many of them miss, there are still more waiting in line to take a swing.

Even if the ethergaunts become outright immune to the devils somehow, they still can't win, because they can never kill enough devils. It's impossible to make a dent in infinity by subtracting some troops.

Unless, of course, the authors just thought of 'infinite' as 'more than you need to know about for running a game' which could stop at a million, a billion, or at least more miniatures than any sane gamer would own.

[Yora]

Where does all the ethergaunt love come from anyway? All they have is their entry in the rather obscure Fiend Folio, and I don't remember them as being described with interesting fluff.
What do they get their traction from?

[Eldan]

There were some really good fan articles. Sadly, the one I had was hosted on geocities, and isn't around anymore. I'll have to ask Rip some time. I really only became interested in them when I wrote up a campaign setting set entirely in the ethereal plane.

And we just don't know how many ethergaunt there are... they may be infinite as well. The chance isn't too bad, given that there are infinite prime worlds and an infinite aether.

[Yora]

In the case of infinite prime world, every single kind of organism is potentially infinite in number.

[BunnyMaster42]

For all interested, the Etherguant article in question can be found here (http://www.oocities.com/ripvanwormer/ethergaunts.html). The link should work properly, and if not, it shouldn't be too hard to find another version of it, cached or otherwise, with a simple google search.

And as for the argument itself, I believe that, while the Etherguants would be able to put up a decent fight, unless they had some plan to take the Devils out quickly they would probably end up losing. Because if there's one thing you do not want to do, it's getting into a war of attrition-like situation with a foe that has (practically) infinite resources and troops available.

[Flickerdart]

Why are we assuming that the Ethergaunts are going to play fair? They're hopelessly outnumbered. They're also all high-level wizards. Imagine what a single 17th level Wizard could do, now multiply that by however many Blacks there are. Gate-loops to get some Solars involved. Fast time flow Genesis planes. Enslaving some Illithids and forcing them to produce an Emerald Legion. The Ethergaunts won't march up and start throwing fireballs, they're smarter than that. The infinity of devils won't do much good when their enemies are scattered across the multiverse except when they need to strike, at which point only one or two actually need to come out of hiding.

It really comes down to whichever side can produce The Cube fastest, really. :smalltongue:

[BunnyMaster42]

Why are we assuming that the Ethergaunts are going to play fair? They're hopelessly outnumbered. They're also all high-level wizards. Imagine what a single 17th level Wizard could do, now multiply that by however many Blacks there are. Gate-loops to get some Solars involved. Fast time flow Genesis planes. Enslaving some Illithids and forcing them to produce an Emerald Legion. The Ethergaunts won't march up and start throwing fireballs, they're smarter than that. The infinity of devils won't do much good when their enemies are scattered across the multiverse except when they need to strike, at which point only one or two actually need to come out of hiding.

It really comes down to whichever side can produce The Cube fastest, really. :smalltongue:

I'm not really sure if you're adressing what I said or not, so I'll just assume you are for now.

I agree about the whole not playing fair thing, the Etherguants would have no reason to fight fair at all. I eman, it's not like playing fair is particularly smart, and Etherguants aren't exactally known for their sense of honour. What I meant was that, generally speaking, any (presumably) limited force, no matter how powerful will most likely face some major difficulties agains an opposing force that is, for all intents and purposes, infinite. That's why I mentioned they would need some sort of plan to take them out fairly early in the conflict, hopefully before the Lords of Hell get majorly involved (although the threat they pose depends greatly on which sources you use for them).

All the tactics you just listed are probably what the Etherguants would do (except maybe the chain gating of solars, as soon as you do that you bring the Upper Planes into the conflict, and in doing so probably piss them off quite a bit), and would all be reasonable ways to end it all quickly. However, if the Etherguants didn't decide to pull out some rather cheesy superweapon to deal with the Devils quickly, they would probably be at a disadvantage in the long run.

[sonofzeal]

To backtrack a little bit in the thread, just because I'm a math nerd...


There are not Aleph 1 Demons. There are, at most, Aleph 0, even if there are infinite planes of the Abyss, and even if an infinite number of them extend infinitely in all directions.

To be Aleph 1, there has to be uncountably many of them. In other words, there can't be any algorithm that could make quantifiable process towards counting them. For example, there's no such algorithm for counting up all the real numbers between 0 and 1. You could count all the rationals, but you'd never get down to all the irrationals, no matter how clever your algorithm. Thus, there are Aleph 1 numbers between 0 and 1.

Let's take a single infinite plane for now. Now, let's freeze time, take any random 5x5 square, and circle clockwise in an ever-widening search pattern. We may not ever finish, but we can at least have this expanding area that we've thoroughly counted. Thus, a single infinite plane can only hold Aleph 0 demons. Call this Algorithm A.

(This sample algorithm does not account for three dimensions, but can be extended to do so by the same algorithm I'm about to present for multiple infinite planes.)

So, we have Aleph 0 demons on one plane, and we have Aleph 0 planes - we know this because they're numbered by integers, and there are Aleph 0 integers.

To count all the demons in the abyss then, start at Layer 1. Run a single iteration of Algorithm A, call this step 1.. Then run an iteration for Layers 1 and 2 (so Layer 1 would be finishing its second iteration and Layer 2 would be finishing its first), and call this step 2. For step 3, run an iteration for Layers 1, 2, and 3. For step 4, do it for Layers 1 through 4. Step 5 has Layers 1 through 5. Repeat infinitely.

Congratulations. In a countably infinite number of steps, you've now counted all the demons out there. Thus, there can only be Aleph 0 demons, no matter how many of the infinite layers are themselves infinite.

[Eldan]

If demons are countable.

That was actually a joke on the Planewalker fora... by the time you've counted to ten, they'd all have changed positions :smallwink:

[sonofzeal]

If demons are countable.

That was actually a joke on the Planewalker fora... by the time you've counted to ten, they'd all have changed positions :smallwink:
You'll note that "freeze time" was up there in the instructions somewhere. That should let you count Tanar'ri at least. I have a feeling Obyrith would still somehow elude counting... but I think it's safe to say that at this point there are strictly less Obyrith than there are Tanar'ri.

[TheDarkDM]

And we just don't know how many ethergaunt there are... they may be infinite as well. The chance isn't too bad, given that there are infinite prime worlds and an infinite aether.

Well, I think we're assuming a finite number of Ethergaunts because that's the only way the fluff works, as a scattered, isolated race of hyperevolved supergeniuses. I mean, if there were infinite Ethergaunts, why are any gods still alive? More importantly, if they are infinite why are their largest settlements smaller than 600 beings?

[Arcane_Secrets]

Well, I think we're assuming a finite number of Ethergaunts because that's the only way the fluff works, as a scattered, isolated race of hyperevolved supergeniuses. I mean, if there were infinite Ethergaunts, why are any gods still alive? More importantly, if they are infinite why are their largest settlements smaller than 600 beings?

Perhaps there's a societal motive for that. Their communication methods function optimally with fewer than 600 beings, or something similar.

[dsmiles]

Perhaps there's a societal motive for that. Their communication methods function optimally with fewer than 600 beings, or something similar.

Or they just don't like living in big cities, perhaps they prefer surburbia?

[Flickerdart]

However, if the Etherguants didn't decide to pull out some rather cheesy superweapon to deal with the Devils quickly, they would probably be at a disadvantage in the long run.
Why wouldn't they, though? They're evil superwizards. The Ethergaunt species is the ultimate manifestation of Tippyverse.

And instead of Solars they could also gate in demons or dragons that can chain, the specific critter isn't important.

[sonofzeal]

For the Ethergaunts to win, you'd have to leave Asmodeous out of it. There's not counter to that level of pwnage, even with Epic Spellcasting.

But yes, in a direct war the Ethergaunts lose, but in any real conflict both sides would probably be seeking to outmaneuver the other and get some Win Button rather than simply slaughter the other side, and I believe Ethergaunts, with superior intelligence and spellcasting, have the decided edge there.

[Callos_DeTerran]

For the Ethergaunts to win, you'd have to leave Asmodeous out of it. There's not counter to that level of pwnage, even with Epic Spellcasting.

But yes, in a direct war the Ethergaunts lose, but in any real conflict both sides would probably be seeking to outmaneuver the other and get some Win Button rather than simply slaughter the other side, and I believe Ethergaunts, with superior intelligence and spellcasting, have the decided edge there.

On the matter of Win Buttons, a thought occurred to me while I was reading through various things. Twas about Ethergaunt plans of deicide. Nobody just...field tests something like that. What if it fails? Well you have an angry deity who knows you just tried to murder it. Best to test it in private (and really, the Ethereal is a great place to test doomsday weapon deity-slayers undisturbed) first.

So...what happened to all the failures? I mean...just because a weapon/spell/scheme can't kill a god doesn't mean it's useless. That's like saying like....the Wand of Orcus (or the Last Word) is useless because it can't kill the tarrasque for good. Plenty of other uses for doomsday weapon failed-deity-slayers, especially against a decidedly more mortal adversary.


........Then again, this thought process also led to the mildly disturbing but hilarious image of a black ethergaunt sitting in it's office and throwing out the schematics for the Silver Hellstar because it could only kill one planet at a time. :smalltongue:

[TheDarkDM]

For the Ethergaunts to win, you'd have to leave Asmodeous out of it. There's not counter to that level of pwnage, even with Epic Spellcasting.

But yes, in a direct war the Ethergaunts lose, but in any real conflict both sides would probably be seeking to outmaneuver the other and get some Win Button rather than simply slaughter the other side, and I believe Ethergaunts, with superior intelligence and spellcasting, have the decided edge there.

While the Ethergaunts have superior intelligence, the Devils far outstrip them in terms of actual resources. With all the cults, favors, and deific allies the Devils have accrued, they could gather an unbelievable horde of arcane power if they really needed to, at a far faster pace than the Ethergaunts could research and build successively newer variations of their assumed superweapons.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, but how many of those casters are low-level? It's going to be most of them. They probably won't even have PC class levels - the majority of them will be Adepts.

[TheDarkDM]

Yeah, but how many of those casters are low-level? It's going to be most of them. They probably won't even have PC class levels - the majority of them will be Adepts.

However in every campaign setting there are Devil cults, and most of those Material Planes are linked to the great wheel. Thus, while there may only be a smattering of high level casters directly worshiping for each Material Plane, the Devils can simply cherry pick from the thousands of Material Plane's they have access to.

And that is ignoring the fact that the Devils could likely extort some superweapons from the Lawful gods and the Upper Planes, given that those entities rely on them totally to keep the Demons at bay.

[sonofzeal]

While the Ethergaunts have superior intelligence, the Devils far outstrip them in terms of actual resources. With all the cults, favors, and deific allies the Devils have accrued, they could gather an unbelievable horde of arcane power if they really needed to, at a far faster pace than the Ethergaunts could research and build successively newer variations of their assumed superweapons.
I wasn't thinking superweapons. I mean, 17th level Wiz casting is already a superweapon. I'm talking Win buttons. Like... changing an entire plane's traits. Breaking the Pact Primeval. Cosmology-rocking, Inevitables-come-and-kick-your-ass level stuff. For all their cultists and favours, I'd put my money on the Ethergaunts to really rock the cosmos first.

But only if Asmodeus is out of the equation.

[TheDarkDM]

I wasn't thinking superweapons. I mean, 17th level Wiz casting is already a superweapon. I'm talking Win buttons. Like... changing an entire plane's traits. Breaking the Pact Primeval. Cosmology-rocking, Inevitables-come-and-kick-your-ass level stuff. For all their cultists and favours, I'd put my money on the Ethergaunts to really rock the cosmos first.

But only if Asmodeus is out of the equation.

But (at least according to how I read them) there are only a triple digit number of Blacks in existence, and I usually rule there are only around 100. In the near infinite expanse of the Nine Hells, there are bound to be an equal or greater number of fiendish/half fiendish wizards with the same capabilities.

[Beelzebub1111]

Everyone's going on about how few of the most powerfull there are, when Even the red ones are 9th level wizards, though. Assuming the 12:1 ratio presented in the organization, and aproximately 100 blacks, that's 1200 9th level wizards that are immune to 2nd level or lower arcane spells, a gaze attack that can deal 1d4 intelligence, wisdom, and charisma damage for a dc 13 will save. (this is not listed as a mind-affecting effect, so lemure's are not immune) And that's not including the 5:1 whites that are 13th level wizards with a DC 16 on the gaze.

You also can't forget that they've got diplomats as well.

[Orzel]

I'd give it to the devils. They are set up to survive drawn out war.

For the Ethergaunts to win, they have to either kill large fractions of the devils quickly over and over or eject all the devils from the Hells. They wont be able to do that without angering the devils allies (and some enemies) and getting ganked.

Only one hard erase would stop any of the major side and anyone would be lucky to survive long enough to get halfway even if only your targets come after you.

[sonofzeal]

......what if the Ethergaunts were, with all their Disjunctions and whatnot, able to release the Ancient Baatorians? :xykon:

[Eldan]

All hell would break loose.

[sonofzeal]

All hell would break loose.

I see what u did thar

[Arcane_Secrets]

......what if the Ethergaunts were, with all their Disjunctions and whatnot, able to release the Ancient Baatorians? :xykon:

At best, that's probably a distraction for a major action elsewhere. If an Ancient Baatorian has a known location, the odds are fairly good that the relevant Lord of the Nine has contingency plans in mind if they ever got loose (or for that matter, might even be using that as a lure or trap to distract opponents from more meaningful targets). If you're referring to an unknown location, then that'd depend on the ethergaunts getting enough knowledge of Hell's layout to find Ancient Baatorians and then releasing them before Hell quashed their efforts.

[Amiel]

This is a good question, actually. Problem is, wouldn't Mechanicus and Celestia attack the Ethergaunts, so the Pact Primeval doesn't go kaput?
I always thought it was a vital job the devils did. And also, what would happen to the Blood War if the Devils died? Would the Ethergaunts be attacked by the Demons? Because if that happened, they WOULD be screwed.

Thank you :)
I just hope that any inevitable conflict is instigated well away from any inhabitable zone; ironically, the devils will try to save the mortal coil, since their particular niche is damnation. The absence of mortal life due to the predations of eldritch horrors does not serve any meaningful goal, and thus the devils will limit their interactions accordingly.
To the devils, the ethergaunts may well be as useless as demons.

I think the inevitables (and other lawful neutral exemplars) and angels will only be involved insofar if their constituency (on part of the angels) or axioms (on part of the LN exemplars) are threatened. Otherwise, they may limit any incursion into the mortal coil.

It's a good point.


I also think that the first battles in any kind of war between them are likely to occur on The Mortal Coil-where the ethergaunts have several advantages. It's easy for them to intrude from the Ethereal, and I'm guessing that even though it isn't actually stated explicitly, they've found ways of weakening the boundaries between the Ethereal and The Mortal Coil so that way they can just walk in with little or no trouble. In comparison, devils either need planeshifting capabilities or else they have to be summoned with either summon monster, planar ally, or gate spells. If the ethergaunts attack and enslave or annihilate the higher level spellcasters fairly quickly (which seems like a smart move for them anyways), they can make it extremely difficult for the devils to even reach that world in the first place-much less get reinforcements.

That's a very good point; since the Ethereal touches upon the boundaries of the mortal coil, the ethergaunts have a "home field" advantage, in a way. Their great intelligence can advise them of a certain appreciability of tactics, namely that which involves hit and run skirmishes. Confusion and disorientation (on both sides) should be the initial field of war.

The devils, bereft of a dearth of intelligence, will start to organise themselves in regimented formations designed with maximal defense and offense. This will ensure that the ethergaunts do not find the devils to be pushovers and easily defeated.


No it's that Demons are more and bigger in the pants in terms of being infinite than thou to the Devils.

The real reason of the Blood War, to compare appendage sizes :smalltongue:


Heh, "Mechanus Bot versus the Hordes of the Ethergaunts."

Now that sounds like it'd be a nice comic.

It will also be a nice movie; wherein a construct, once bereft of the emotion of love finds happiness in the arms of one who had been lobotimised. It will be a romance, a tragedy, a thriller, a comedy.


In this case I would give it to the Devils though, as the Lemurs are proof against mind-control and are almost endless. You would literally have to carve your way through millions of them while the other Devils run damage control. Even the Pit Fiend versus super-gaunt example is fundamentally flawed, since there are dozens of Pit Fiends for each of them. Yes, lots of Devils would die and the Blood War would probably end with the Demons winning because of it, but the Devils would be the gaunts.

This is also a good point; devils in all their engagements actively drive hordes of the mindless ammunition (lemures) before them; both to insulate themselves against retaliation and to serve as distraction as the devils maneuver themselves into more favourable vantages and positions.

What vexes the demons - due to their innate inability to understand order - may still work well against the ethergaunts, who may find their vast intelligence is unable to cope with the prospect of their powers failing to manipulate others or cause them to fall into stupor.



Regarding the technological devices of the ethergaunts, what do you guys think of the following? Ethergaunt devices (http://www.planewalker.com/050406/ethergaunt-devices)

[Beelzebub1111]

This is also a good point; devils in all their engagements actively drive hordes of the mindless ammunition (lemures) before them; both to insulate themselves against retaliation and to serve as distraction as the devils maneuver themselves into more favourable vantages and positions.
Not as effective as you'd think. Stupifying Gaze deals intelligence, wisdom and charisma damage. it is not listed as a mind affecting effect, so it is not one, and lemures are not immune. They will be redused to comatose piles of mindless goo (as opposed to living, attacking, piles of mindless goo) in a matter of rounds.

[Amiel]

By Beelzebub's beard, that's quite a powerful effect. Does it allow for a DC save to resist? And is there a HD ceiling that it hits, or does it affect all creatures?

[Boci]

By Beelzebub's beard, that's quite a powerful effect. Does it allow for a DC save to resist? And is there a HD ceiling that it hits, or does it affect all creatures?

Will save 15 negates, no HD cap.

[Amiel]

Thanks for clarifying :)
Oh, does the gaze affect a singular target or a massed bunch?

The devils may well need to rethink their strategy - being "overly regimented", some devils may be disinclined to acquiesce to trialing new combat maneuvers.
Well, they could still drive the lemure hordes to act as distractions, while the devils prepare the terrain to their liking.

[Boci]

Thanks for clarifying :)
Oh, does the gaze affect a singular target or a massed bunch?

Anyone within 30 feet. Its also a free action.

Edit: Screwed up on the saves. They are actually DC 13 for red, DC 16 for white, and DC 20 for black ethergaunts.

[Amiel]

Oh, that isn't as bad as I had envisioned. I was afraid that the ethergaunts harboured an ability that allowed them to use their Int modifier in lieu of the standard modifier.

While least and lesser devils may have their sentience stripped from them (some of the least and lesser devils have okay Will saves, allowing for the possibility of success), the greater devils are able to ignore a potentially crippling power.

Oh, is it a Su ability? Some devils may be able to cast greater dispel magic on the ethergaunt (provided they succeed against an opposed caster level check of course) and abjure their minions to a degree.

[Boci]

Oh, is it a Su ability? Some devils may be able to cast greater dispel magic on the ethergaunt (provided they succeed against an opposed caster level check of course) and abjure their minions to a degree.

Can Su abilities be dispelled?

[Amiel]

Can Su abilities be dispelled?

According to its summary, apparently not :(.
However, I'm unsure on the particulars of the interaction between GDM and whether the stupefying gaze counts as a 'curse' effect; which greater dispel magic may be able to remove.

[DMfromTheAbyss]

I hate to interject at this late time, both subjectively for myself and for everyone in the thread, as much good discussion has been had but..

I think there .. is .. a .. problem... we've all missed..:smalleek:

1)OK the Ethergaunts are basically out to kill deities, destroy the whole belief network and bring the "system" down. They being powerful "wizard/beings" of the Atheist persuasion.. yes?

2)There was a similar group, philosophy wise anyway in planescape. The Athar.

Athar
("Defiers", "The Lost"), who deny not only the gods' right to pass judgment over mortals, but their very divinity. They claim that the gods (whom they call "powers") are powerful but have limits and do not deserve worship. Instead, Athar priests channel divine power from what they call the "Great Unknown", or what they believe to be the true divine force behind everything. Their headquarters in Sigil is the Shattered Temple, the former temple of the dead god Aoskar. The Athar are broadly derived from real-world atheists, agnostics, and Deists.


3)Now I believe it was mentioned in one of the books that Asmodeous had "nothing to do with" the Athar, but found it vastly amusing that in the terms of of the pact Primeval/laws of the cosmos, he had written himself a loophole, effectively getting the souls of those who actively denied the gods in such a fashion, which included said entire faction. So they were in essence trying to expand to harm divine beings.. such as say.. him.. but in effect secretly directly making him more powerful, supposedly slowly healing the "damage" he had taken in the "Fall" so he could basically get back up and destroy/consume/reorder the universe to his liking sooner.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone else drawing the same conclusions as me.. is the concept behind this thread an attempt by Asmodeus to pull a Palpatine and run both sides of a conflict, which by it's very nature makes him stronger in the process reguardless of which side wins.

I propose a new plan.. Heroes, Angels, Demons, Wizards and champions of all types, races, planes and descriptions should stop this before any conflict can commence, else the conflict may very well have "unintended consequences" of the most dire variety, as Asmodeous helps the Ethergaunts, does an end run around the rules (par for him) and finds a way to mulch all the souls and powers of Hell and creation into himself through the Ethergaunts attempts to destroy said souls and ends up finishing his rebirth/apotheosis/plan a bit earlier than anyone expected...

[Eldan]

Yes, the Ethergaunts are indeed Super-Athar. I must admit, though, that, to my unending shame, I have forgotten about the atheist (or should that be anti-theist) loophole in Asmodeus' pact.

That's a scary, scary thought.

[hamishspence]

3)Now I believe it was mentioned in one of the books that Asmodeous had "nothing to do with" the Athar, but found it vastly amusing that in the terms of of the pact Primeval/laws of the cosmos, he had written himself a loophole, effectively getting the souls of those who actively denied the gods in such a fashion, which included said entire faction.

I couldn't find anything about "anti-theists" in FC2.


Yes, the Ethergaunts are indeed Super-Athar. I must admit, though, that, to my unending shame, I have forgotten about the atheist (or should that be anti-theist) loophole in Asmodeus' pact.

That's a scary, scary thought.

As written in FC2, Asmodeus can only get souls who have become corrupt enough (or lawful enough, if evil)- to be consigned to the Nine Hells.

An Athar who is not evil, and has not been doing evil acts, is in no danger of having their soul consigned to Baator.

Complete Divine points out that, in the default system, characters go to afterlives dependent on their alignment, not their beliefs, or whether or not they opposed the activities of the gods.

I'm not sure if souls in the Wall of the Faithless, in Faerun, go to Asmodeus after having been "broken down" over a long period of time, though. If so, it would fit with Athar souls empowering Asmodeus.

Deities & Demigods (unlike the earlier FRCS) does define the Faithless as "those who actively opposed the worship of the gods" and has those who simply had no patron, wander the Fugue Plane.

[Eldan]

It was a thing that was written in Planescape at least, and I'm fairly sure in earlier sources as well. It said "Atheists", actually, but that was a bit... unfortunate, so everyone agreed to just say that they meant "actively renouncing the gods".

[Myth]

Going by fluff Asmo would have seen trough their attacks, plans, intentions, the consequences of the attack, the consequences of those consequences, and would have planned for it, had a backup plan, a just in case backup plan and an OH SHI- contingency.

Going by stats the Gaunts can abuse their Tier 1 caster status and immunity to Arcane spells of a certain level and down to considerably weaken the Devils. Taking out five million max HD Pit Fiends without Epic magic or uber TO cheese is not easy though.

[Weasel of Doom]

I don't see the ethergaunts being able to win for a few reasons.


People are talking about the ethergaunts engaging the devils on a neutral plane so neither has an advantage but, according to the fiendish codex, devils can't be permanently killed anywhere but in Baator.

Devils have been fighting against infinite demons since the beginning of time and they're skilled enough strategists that Avernus has never been breached. That they're described as masters of military science and subterfuge second to none could just be hyperbole but they're certainly extremely good strategists with possibly enough experience to outweigh the ethergaunts int.

Fewer than 100 black ethergaunts exist and going from the organisation given in their stat block not a huge number more of red and white exist either. I don't think their individual power is enough to overcome the nigh-infinite devils.

Asmodeus and the other Lords of Nine are extremely powerful so I think that would sway the battle. They may also be able to get aid from other extremely powerful forces such as LE gods and celestials easier than the ethergaunts.

Finally, while black ethergaunts have higher int than most devils they have much lower wisdom than many devils which could make them worse strategists in some ways.

And the immunity to spells is only to arcane spells equal or lower than 2nd level for red, 4th for white and 6th for black. Do spell-like abilities count as arcane spells?