Remembrence Day

[SensFan]

November 11th is quickly approaching; would a thread for Remembrence Day be appropriate, or is that too close to the political line for comfort?

[Elfin]

There already is one, started by KingofLaughter. It got to the point where it toed the line pretty quickly, though. Partially my fault, but still.

[Tirian]

The Guy Fawkes Day thread seems to have survived, and that seems much more politically charged than what you'd be planning.

[Sneak]

Between this and the thread in Friendly Banter, is there some sort of mental block on spelling "rmembrance" correctly?LOLZ IRONY

[Dvil]

Evidently.

[Jokasti]

Between this and the thread in Friendly Banter, is there some sort of mental block on spelling "rmembrance" correctly?LOLZ IRONY

Poe's Law, man.
GAH WHITE TEXT I should've checked. Dern quotes.

[Thajocoth]

There is a thread for it already in Friendly Banter (as has been mentioned). I'm really surprised they're letting the thread be for now, since it's such a political and polarizing topic. Personally, I'm going to avoid it.

[Zeta Kai]

The Guy Fawkes Day thread seems to have survived, and that seems much more politically charged than what you'd be planning.

Are people still sore about this? I would hope that 400 years would dull the point a bit. But I guess that time may not heal all wounds. Alas.

[Thajocoth]

Are people still sore about this? I would hope that 400 years would dull the point a bit. But I guess that time may not heal all wounds. Alas.

They've locked things related to politics in Ancient Rome (it may have been Ancient Greece). The rule doesn't specify if people are still sore or not, or if it's an issue anyone cares about anymore or if it's even relevant to anything at all.

[Evil DM Mark3]

There is a thread for it already in Friendly Banter (as has been mentioned). I'm really surprised they're letting the thread be for now, since it's such a political and polarizing topic. Personally, I'm going to avoid it.Political, perhaps (I will come back to that) but polarizing? What is polarizing about:

The official day of remembrance for Britain and former British territories is coming up. (This is an empirical fact)
It is a bad thing that people die in wars.
We need to remember people who died in wars. (These are opinions, but not ones we would often see debated)


As for political, the 11th of November is not a celebration of war, nor is it a protest about it. It is not to do with a single war. It is there to remember and respect those who gave their lives in the service of their nation because their nation asked them to. It is there to remember those who came back but left something, be it a limb, an eye or their innocence, behind. It is there to remember those who live without their loved ones. In the UK at least it is viewed as the height of bad taste to use the 11th for a specific political reason. It is about remembering, not posturing. There is no political angle to the desire to honour the brave and the lost.

[Jokasti]

Political, perhaps (I will come back to that) but polarizing? What is polarizing about:

The official day of remembrance for Britain and former British territories is coming up. (This is an empirical fact)
It is a bad thing that people die in wars.
We need to remember people who died in wars. (These are opinions, but not ones we would often see debated)

Why is it bad that people die in wars?

[Evil DM Mark3]

Why is it bad that people die in wars?

Because it is bad that people die.

[SensFan]

Why is it bad that people die in wars?
Please tell me you're attempting to make a very bad joke here.

[Jokasti]

Because it is bad that people die.
Why? Death is a part of life.

[Om]

Political, perhaps (I will come back to that) but polarizing? What is polarizing about:

The official day of remembrance for Britain and former British territories is coming up. (This is an empirical fact)
It is a bad thing that people die in wars.
We need to remember people who died in wars. (These are opinions, but not ones we would often see debated)
Obviously it is not polarising in Britain. It is an entirely different matter in those countries that have suffered at the hands of British soldiers. Guy Fawkes was four centuries ago but a number of the British servicemen being commemorated would have committed war crimes within the past century. Certainly I have had family members, within the past two generations, that have suffered unjustly at the hands of British servicemen

This is not an issue that I particularly want to discuss, board rules being what they are, but it should be made clear that perceptions of this event differ significantly outside of Britain. Obviously I would go nowhere near the thread, but I would be disappointed if it were allowed to remain open

[Boo]

@Jokasti: It can cause sadness, prejudice, hatred, etc. In geek terms: the Dark Side spreads more quickly.

I tend to remember more civilians than soldiers, so we all have our own things we remember on this day. Whether those things are actually related to Remembrance Day or not is up to an individual.

Regardless, I will probably put up an avatar or place something in my signature. I see no reason why that would be disallowed since I am not discussing it with, nor forcing my opinion upon others.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Obviously it is not polarising in Britain. It is an entirely different matter in those countries that have suffered at the hands of British soldiers. Guy Fawkes was four centuries ago but a number of the British servicemen being commemorated would have committed war crimes within the past century. Certainly I have had family members, within the past two generations, that have suffered unjustly at the hands of British servicemen

This is not an issue that I particularly want to discuss, board rules being what they are, but it should be made clear that perceptions of this event differ significantly outside of Britain. Obviously I would go nowhere near the thread, but I would be disappointed if it were allowed to remain open

Obviously the circumstances around your family are not ones that fall inside the rules, although you have my sympathies even if I disagree with your attitude to the whole based on the actions of a few.

On a more pertinent point however, there have been threads in previous years with no difficulty, why is this year different?

[happyturtle]

November 11 was originally "Armistice Day", the day of the WW1 ceasefire on the western front. Surely it isn't controversial to commemorate that.

[Thajocoth]

We need to remember people who died in wars.

Some people disagree with this. I will not comment further, as doing so would be against the rules.

Judging by previous posts, some people disagree with the second point too:
It is a bad thing that people die in wars.

Why? Death is a part of life.

That leaves you only with the fact that the "holiday" in question is approaching.

[Jokasti]

@Jokasti: It can cause sadness, prejudice, hatred, etc. In geek terms: the Dark Side spreads more quickly.
Sith fanboy here, so yeah. I could argue more, but


I will not comment further, as doing so would be against the rules.
Yeah.


That leaves you only with the fact that the "holiday" in question is approaching.
You're assuming the world isn't destroyed by aliens before the approaching date.

[Thajocoth]

You're assuming the world isn't destroyed by aliens before the approaching date.

I think it's a safe bet.

[Jokasti]

I think it's a safe bet.

Or that all instances of the holidays existence- memory, calenders, and such- are destroyed by a villain!

[Blue Ghost]

Or that all instances of the holidays existence- memory, calenders, and such- are destroyed by a villain!

That would be a safe bet too. :smallsigh:
What was the point of this discussion again?

[Om]

Obviously the circumstances around your family are not ones that fall inside the rules, although you have my sympathies even if I disagree with your attitude to the whole based on the actions of a fewYou're missing my wider point - the actions of British soldiers are most certainly not universally welcomed or fondly remembered outside of Britain. I'm not simply talking about the odd war crime (although it is perverse that this commemoration does not make such distinctions) but that all these soldiers, acting on orders, were carrying out the wishes/policies of the British state. There are many countries in the world where the impact of these policies, and the legacy of those who enforced them, still leave scars

Now usually, on another forum, I would just turn a blind eye to such a thread, but it seems bizarre that it could remain open here when threads on the ancient world are being locked


On a more pertinent point however, there have been threads in previous years with no difficulty, why is this year different?A number of reasons; including the apparent tightening of the rules in question and my flickering absence from the forum in previous years

On a more personal level, I happened to be living in England this time last year and was frankly amazed by the open levels of jingoism on display around this event. I won't go into this any more, not least the bitter experiences or the role of the media in whipping this up, but it was a real eye-opener for me

[Evil DM Mark3]

While I personally feel that a bar on ancient politics threads is absurd, I can at least see how it falls out of a non-politics policy.

Remembrance is not about passing judgements on the reasons behind wars or the politics of world affairs. It is about remembering those people who decided that their lives would be best spent defending their nation, for whatever reason, and who died or otherwise lost because of that belief. Its about their families. Its about the civilians who lost as well. These people have no control over the reasons, and if you feel the reasons are unjust that simply makes their loss more tragic.

Shorter version:
This is not about Chamberlain or Stalin, this is about L.Cpl Richards, who took a bullet trying to save his friend.

[Eldan]

Why? Death is a part of life.

It shouldn't be.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

November 11 was originally "Armistice Day", the day of the WW1 ceasefire on the western front. Surely it isn't controversial to commemorate that.
What something once was doesn’t necessarily have much to do with what that thing is now. By Om’s account, it would seem that simple remembrance of a particularly bloody conflict has given away to overt displays of ugly nationalism.

And, unless I’m much mistaken, it is generally accepted that the ending of WWI paved the way for another particularly bloody fight a few decades later. So it would seem that even limiting it to remembrance of that one War is likely to stir certain emotions.

[Om]

This is not about Chamberlain or Stalin, this is about L.Cpl Richards, who took a bullet trying to save his friend.Its also about those who perpetrated the massacres of unarmed civilians in Amritsar, Peshawar, Dublin and Derry, to name but a few bloody sites. Its about those 'heroes' of Flanders who were sent to Ireland with the express purpose of terrorising the population into submission. Its about the countless indignities and acts of brutality visited on colonial populations in the name of Empire. This is what British soldiers represent to those nations that suffered their presence. 'Not political'? Only if you close your eyes

I can understand the importance that this day has for many in Britain, I can understand the jingoism that so often surrounds it there, and I can understand why the tabloid press loves it so*. What I want you to understand is that outside Britain the perspective of this day, and indeed the British armed forces, is very different

*I can only imagine the reaction of the British press if Germany were to adopt the same attitude towards commemorating its war dead

[Evil DM Mark3]

EDIT:I removed this post because we are now having a political discussion. On another forum I would be willing to discuss this, but The Troubles just reared it's head and that is the time when every British person knows the internet debate just turned into a row. All I want to say about it is that I am aware of what was done by both sides and no one came out as good and noble as they want to think they did. I know this is a sore point even to this day and do not wish to antagonise people, in part because I too have scars caused by this that will lead me to do things that will count as flaming or even ban me if I start venting about them here.

What we need is a Mod judgement and to move on with that decision. This is not a democracy, it is an internet forum.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

EDIT:I removed this post because we are now having a political discussion. On another forum I would be willing to discuss this, but The Troubles just reared it's head and that is the time when every British person knows the internet debate just turned into a row.
Pretty good demonstration of why this topic is not necessarily so innocuous, eh?

[Om]

On another forum I would be willing to discuss this, but The Troubles just reared it's head and that is the time when every British person knows the internet debate just turned into a rowThis should not be a surprise. The impact, role and legacy of British soldiers in Ireland, and indeed other colonial theatres, is so often the subject of bitter political disputes. Which rather illustrates my point

I too hope for a mod judgement on this soon. That it has not arrived to date suggests that there is some internal discussion going on

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread seems more political than the thread it's about. Wierd. That thread, like everything else, is under observation. If it turns political, it'll be locked. If it can remain civil and apolitical, groovy. If individual posts there trigger your politics alarm, feel free to report it.