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View Full Version : Skirmish + Teleportation = ???



NineThePuma
2010-11-07, 09:28 PM
I've been thinking about using a Skirmisher character, but don't know if I can activate Skirmish if I use a teleportation power. =\ Is there a RAW thing that says no somewhere, meaning I gotta get it house ruled, or...?

SensFan
2010-11-07, 09:30 PM
I don't know about the RAW interpretation, but I would certainly rule that teleportation does not trigger skirmish.

NineThePuma
2010-11-07, 09:37 PM
That sort of kills my goal there =\ Ah well. Maybe I can use a Shadow Pouncer...

Tael
2010-11-07, 09:39 PM
By RAW it triggers. You have moved 10 ft. or more from your original spot, nothing else matters. It may be ruled differently though. Bottom line is, as always, check with your DM.

Kellus
2010-11-07, 09:41 PM
The exact text on page 12 of Complete Adventurer is that,


[the scout] deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet.

Since it doesn't describe any limitations on how that movement is accomplished, I think it's entirely reasonable that if you have some kind of method of attacking after a teleport like Sun School or Shadow Pounce that you could use it in conjunction with it.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Andraste
2010-11-07, 09:52 PM
It seems like it should work. That's actually a pretty awesome idea.

Brendan
2010-11-07, 10:01 PM
as long as going from point A to B counts as moving (which it kinda does) you should be fine. and be playing a really cool character.

BridgeCity
2010-11-07, 10:03 PM
I wouldn't allow it. To me, the extra damage from skirmish is due to the character taking time to study the enemy and find the weakspot or most advantageous position to strike from, and I feel that it is during the movement that this study and observation is taking place. Teleporting cuts that out.

Worira
2010-11-07, 10:09 PM
I wouldn't allow it. To me, the extra damage from skirmish is due to the character taking time to study the enemy and find the weakspot or most advantageous position to strike from, and I feel that it is during the movement that this study and observation is taking place. Teleporting cuts that out.

How does that make any sense? He can't study them while he's standing still?

Psyren
2010-11-07, 10:11 PM
I'd allow it. It's tricky enough to get teleportation as a swift action, especially for a non-ToB martial class.

I mean, Psywars, Swordsages etc. are already doing it; it's not going to break the Scout any.

Beelzebub1111
2010-11-07, 10:26 PM
I'd allow it. It's tricky enough to get teleportation as a swift action, especially for a non-ToB martial class.

I mean, Psywars, Swordsages etc. are already doing it; it's not going to break the Scout any.

Blade of Orien (Dragonmarked) can pop around as a move action, and as a capstone, can pop and full attack. They can also pop objects as a swift action, pop their allies, pop their enemies, and Pop without provoking an attack of oppritunity.

Brendan
2010-11-07, 10:45 PM
I wouldn't allow it. To me, the extra damage from skirmish is due to the character taking time to study the enemy and find the weakspot or most advantageous position to strike from, and I feel that it is during the movement that this study and observation is taking place. Teleporting cuts that out.

I always thought that the movement created the opportunity for an effective and unexpected shot due to the enemy not being able to ready a defense or absorb the blow. sort of how the movement created an angle to the enemy's jugular or something. Teleportation would theoretically be even more effective for that purpose.

NineThePuma
2010-11-07, 11:04 PM
@Brendan: I thought the same, fluff wise.

RAW says movement, so... Yay! =D

dgnslyr
2010-11-07, 11:06 PM
Hrm, would Anklets of Translocation work here? It's a 10 ft teleport, isn't it?

Psyren
2010-11-07, 11:30 PM
Blade of Orien (Dragonmarked) can pop around as a move action, and as a capstone, can pop and full attack. They can also pop objects as a swift action, pop their allies, pop their enemies, and Pop without provoking an attack of oppritunity.

I didn't say it was impossible, just tricky.

What book is that from? Sounds setting-specific.

Beelzebub1111
2010-11-08, 04:22 PM
I didn't say it was impossible, just tricky.

What book is that from? Sounds setting-specific.
The book is Dragonmarked. Eberron source book. Difficult to adapt, but not impossible.

Keld Denar
2010-11-08, 04:45 PM
A couple levels of Ardent with the Freedom mantle would give you Dimension Hop, a 1st level swift action 10' teleport power. That would give you a few uses per day of it, assuming you don't burn your PP on other things.

As far as fluff-wise, I always interpretted skirmish as a change in perspective. Movement is a way to change your perspective, allowing you to spot AND capitalize on openings created by disorienting your opponent. Movement via teleportation would certainly qualify in that regard.

Now you just need a skirmish/psionic advancing PrC similar to Unseen Seer or such.

Cespenar
2010-11-08, 04:47 PM
By RAW, I wouldn't allow it. The character doesn't actually take an action that somehow counts to its movement limit. To nitpick even more, teleportation is IMHO defined as "changing your location without actually moving".

By RAI, however, I'd totally allow it. It's a cool move and it fits the assaulting/surprising/whatever theme in which the scout gains the damage.

Person_Man
2010-11-08, 04:59 PM
IIRC, the errata specifically disallows mounted movement from triggering Skirmish. Depending on how it's worded, it may also ban teleportation. Can someone who isn't blocked at worked check?

Also, Skirmish is a HORRIBLE way to boost damage. You top out at +5d6 damage (average of 17.5) at 17th level. (More if you spend feats on it, but you could be spending the same feats on Craven, Dragonfire Inspiration, Power Attack, anything that adds extra attacks, etc). And it comes with Precision restrictions. So there's really not much reason to invest in it.

Morph Bark
2010-11-08, 06:14 PM
I wouldn't allow it. To me, the extra damage from skirmish is due to the character taking time to study the enemy and find the weakspot or most advantageous position to strike from, and I feel that it is during the movement that this study and observation is taking place. Teleporting cuts that out.

Funny, I thought it more from the angle that Scouts learn to add more momentum to their attacks while they run.

NineThePuma
2010-11-08, 08:21 PM
Well, teleporting behind someone and shanking them doesn't trigger Sneak Attack. I wish Swift Ambusher had let you stack the two values and have them both triggered by the circumstances that triggered one.

Ah well.

BridgeCity
2010-11-08, 11:12 PM
How does that make any sense? He can't study them while he's standing still?

If he could study them while standing still, you could do away with the need for movement at all. Since there is a neccesity to move 20ft for the ability to work, this is the reason I came up with.


Funny, I thought it more from the angle that Scouts learn to add more momentum to their attacks while they run.

Except that it works for ranged shots too. You don't get more momentum by moving before shooting an arrow, so I feel this also is not a very sensible way to explain the need for movement.


I always thought that the movement created the opportunity for an effective and unexpected shot due to the enemy not being able to ready a defense or absorb the blow. sort of how the movement created an angle to the enemy's jugular or something. Teleportation would theoretically be even more effective for that purpose.

While I agree that teleportation would be more effective if that is what the movement achieved, I don't really feel that having the movement achieve that makes sense, based mostly on the fact that anyone else moving 20ft before attacking doesn't achieve the same result. I know that you can hand wave this as 'plenty of classes do the same thing without the same result' but I've just always felt that it makes sense for the scout to be trained at finding a weak spot, like a rogue is, and the movement is them searching for it. To each their own.

Boci
2010-11-08, 11:21 PM
If he could study them while standing still, you could do away with the need for movement at all. Since there is a neccesity to move 20ft for the ability to work, this is the reason I came up with.

The scout still needs to move after he has studied his enemy, but how he moves is not important. At least that is how I would rule it.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 12:25 AM
While I agree that teleportation would be more effective if that is what the movement achieved, I don't really feel that having the movement achieve that makes sense, based mostly on the fact that anyone else moving 20ft before attacking doesn't achieve the same result. I know that you can hand wave this as 'plenty of classes do the same thing without the same result' but I've just always felt that it makes sense for the scout to be trained at finding a weak spot, like a rogue is, and the movement is them searching for it. To each their own.

But teleportation is more effective at that, too. If I run behind you during a fight, you are going to follow my movement by turning to keep me in focus unless you have a really good reason not to. But if I teleport behind you, you're wide open; even if you do know where I went, there's going to be that moment of disorientation from my "now-you-see-me-now-you-don't" act.

Which of the two is more likely to reveal a weak spot? The teleportation.

BridgeCity
2010-11-09, 01:41 AM
The scout still needs to move after he has studied his enemy, but how he moves is not important. At least that is how I would rule it.

Yeah, thats my point, this is how I would rule it. I'm not saying it is how it should be done, or that other interpretations cannot be used, I'm just saying how I would do it.


But teleportation is more effective at that, too. If I run behind you during a fight, you are going to follow my movement by turning to keep me in focus unless you have a really good reason not to. But if I teleport behind you, you're wide open; even if you do know where I went, there's going to be that moment of disorientation from my "now-you-see-me-now-you-don't" act.

Which of the two is more likely to reveal a weak spot? The teleportation.

Which completely misses what I said. If you scroll up you will see that I said that I, personally, feel that it is the time taken to study the target that allows the scout to find a weak spot, not the enemy being off guard. There are other viable ways to put an enemy off guard while standing still that don't allow you to get your skirmish.

Using feint is a good example here. If a scout feinted to put an enemy off guard they would not gain the benefit of using skirmish, even though the enemy is now, not just descriptively, but mechanically more off guard then if you teleported beside them, due to losing their dex bonus to AC. As this does not trigger skirmish damage, it makes no sense to me to say that skirmish deals with catching enemies off guard to discover weakspots. That's a rogue thing.

By teleporting, the scout is not spending any time studying their target, looking for a weak spot, so I, personally, would not rule that it works.

ericgrau
2010-11-09, 01:48 AM
It's a common tactic but I don't like it. Besides violating the fluff it causes a dramatic difference in power. Ya, skirmish is so-so otherwise. But forcing people to pick certain options, leaving less room for other options, is a dull and horrible way to "fix" anything. Plus many groups don't play at that level of power.

Koury
2010-11-09, 02:04 AM
It's a common tactic but I don't like it. Besides violating the fluff it causes a dramatic difference in power. Ya, skirmish is so-so otherwise. But forcing people to pick certain options, leaving less room for other options, is a dull and horrible way to "fix" anything. Plus many groups don't play at that level of power.

About 17.5 damage is enough to change power levels? :smallconfused:

ericgrau
2010-11-09, 02:15 AM
Times 4-7 attacks ya.

NineThePuma
2010-11-09, 02:24 AM
That's... not really all that much better than a TWF rogue. Who can actually do it much more reliably. =|

Maybe I'm just crazy.

crazedloon
2010-11-09, 02:33 AM
Times 4-7 attacks ya.

really not that impressive when a single feat and a single level of a class can gets you +20 damage on each attack (craven and rogue)

Curmudgeon
2010-11-09, 02:53 AM
No, that shouldn't work. Teleportation is relocating without moving, and skirmish requires moving. From Collins English Dictionary via Dictionary.com:
teleport -v

to transfer or transmit instantaneously without physically traversing the space in between but rather by psychic or advanced technological means

ericgrau
2010-11-09, 02:56 AM
That's... not really all that much better than a TWF rogue. Who can actually do it much more reliably. =|

Maybe I'm just crazy.

The comparison is between full attack skirmish (e.g., via teleport) and normal skirmish. If the normal skirmish is a problem, the solution is to either fix that skirmish or nerf other things, not to give everyone one less option by forcing them to pick something just to keep up. AFAIK hacking the scout's damage is far from the original intent too. They seem to be a ranger/rogue/ungrappleable-speed blend to handle all the party's utility needs with only 1 class. In exchange they must trade away damage, making them worse at it than two classes that already got utility in exchange for worse damage than other classes. Seems fair to me, but not so hot for hack-and-slash min-maxers who only want to kill.

Koury
2010-11-09, 03:17 AM
No, that shouldn't work. Teleportation is relocating without moving, and skirmish requires moving. From Collins English Dictionary via Dictionary.com:

So, not only do you not actually move, somehow, but all teleporting is either psychic or technology based? This seems silly to me on both counts.

BridgeCity
2010-11-09, 03:40 AM
So, not only do you not actually move, somehow, but all teleporting is either psychic or technology based? This seems silly to me on both counts.

But with teleportation you really don't move. You instantly appear at the location. Teleportation is not just really super speed movement, it is dissapearing and appearing, which is completely different.

DeckOneBell
2010-11-09, 03:56 AM
Seems to me like it makes the scout slightly more powerful, and hardly makes skirmish broken, and is also kinda cool fluff-wise.

... Sounds good to me.

absolmorph
2010-11-09, 04:43 AM
But with teleportation you really don't move. You instantly appear at the location. Teleportation is not just really super speed movement, it is dissapearing and appearing, which is completely different.
If you don't move when teleporting, a person on Earth teleporting would end up millions, or probably billions, of miles away.
Also, it actually IS moving. Spells with the (Teleport) descriptor are movement through the Astral Plane, using it's malleable geography and distances to move long distances on the Material Plane.


Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.
Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#teleportation)

Boci
2010-11-09, 04:58 AM
Seems fair to me, but not so hot for hack-and-slash min-maxers who only want to kill.

Or people who feel that the scout already makes that payment in the form of a slower rate of skirmish damage growth. But your unneccissarily derogatory term if fine as well.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-09, 05:07 AM
Also, it actually IS moving. Spells with the (Teleport) descriptor are movement through the Astral Plane, using it's malleable geography and distances to move long distances on the Material Plane.
You seem to have changed the important part:
Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_%28physics%29):
In physics, motion is a change in position of an object with respect to time. Change in action is the result of an unapplied force. Motion is typically described in terms of velocity, acceleration, displacement, and time. The rules about teleportation don't include "movement", but do include "instantaneous". If it takes no time, it's not movement; it's just relocation.

olentu
2010-11-09, 05:18 AM
You seem to have changed the important part: From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_%28physics%29): The rules about teleportation don't include "movement", but do include "instantaneous". If it takes no time, it's not movement; it's just relocation.

Movement

"1 a (1) : the act or process of moving; especially : change of place or position or posture (2) : a particular instance or manner of moving"

Moving

"1 : to change the place or position of "

Angelmaker
2010-11-09, 05:23 AM
Ok, this thread has officially died. Quoting real-life physics and dictionarys to prove you´re right on a rule in a game is just... weird. :smallyuk:

@ Topic: Just go with it already: It´s not gamebreaking and quite cool.

Person_Man
2010-11-09, 10:52 AM
A short list of ways to add bonus damage:

Incarnum Radiance (Evil): +0.5 per class level (2 + 2 every 5 levels)
Incarnate Avatar (Evil): +0.6 per class level (+2 per essentia)
Dragonfire Inspiration: +0.7 per class level (replaces Inspire Courage bonus)
Skirmish: +0.875 per class level (+1d6 every 4 levels)
Craven feat: +1 per character level
Pathfinder Smite Evil: +1 per class level
Sneak Attack: +1.75 per class level (1d6 ever 2 levels)
Sudden Strike: +1.75 per class level (1d6 ever 2 levels)
Many damage dealing spells: +1.75 per caster level (1d6 every 2 levels)
Power Attack: +2 per BAB (penalizes To-Hit or AC with Shock Trooper)
Arcane Strike feat: +2.5 per caster level (1d4 per spell level)
Leap Attack: +4 per BAB (need Pounce, same penalties as PA)


Now obviously there are a lot of "yes, but" statements to the above list. Incarnum Radiance can be more then doubled by the Planar Chasuble soulmeld, and the essentia capacity of Incarnate Avatar can be increased. Dragonfire Inspiration can be doubled by Words of Creation and buffed further by various other things, and the bonus applies to all allies. Precision damage has various restrictions, and lots of enemies are immune, but can benefit from Craven and Staggering Strike. Spells can be added easily broken with metamagic and/or added to full attacks (Duskblade, various PrC, Spell Storing Weapon, various feats). Power Attack/Leap Attack can be multiplied various different ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087). But the base math above is generally a good indicator.

But it's clear that Skirmish is on the bottom end of the bonus damage spectrum, and it generally requires a high level of investment (17 Scout and/or Ranger and/or Rogue level) to get it.

SensFan
2010-11-09, 11:46 AM
Ok, this thread has officially died. Quoting real-life physics and dictionarys to prove you´re right on a rule in a game is just... weird. :smallyuk:

@ Topic: Just go with it already: It´s not gamebreaking and quite cool.
What a fascinating debate tactic. I'm shocked the Harvard Debate Team doesn't use it to win every debate! I can just see how effective it would be! After an hour-long debate between both teams, the Harvard guy just says "This is getting too long. Judges, just go with my idea. It's way cooler!"

Psyren
2010-11-09, 12:21 PM
What a fascinating debate tactic. I'm shocked the Harvard Debate Team doesn't use it to win every debate! I can just see how effective it would be! After an hour-long debate between both teams, the Harvard guy just says "This is getting too long. Judges, just go with my idea. It's way cooler!"

It's no less valid than, y'know, quoting the dictionary definition of a fictional concept to support an argument.

Unless the Collins/Wikipedia folks have done any magical teleportation recently or know a reputable source that has, I fail to see how they add any weight at all to this discussion.

Worira
2010-11-09, 12:33 PM
If he could study them while standing still, you could do away with the need for movement at all. Since there is a neccesity to move 20ft for the ability to work, this is the reason I came up with.

That's some circular reasoning there.

blackjack217
2010-11-09, 12:36 PM
heck by raw you get skirmish damage from falling (which is actually cool)

absolmorph
2010-11-09, 12:38 PM
It's no less valid than, y'know, quoting the dictionary definition of a fictional concept to support an argument.

Unless the Collins/Wikipedia folks have done any magical teleportation recently or know a reputable source that has, I fail to see how they add any weight at all to this discussion.
That's why I quoted the SRD. The dictionary and Wikipedia (after that) are being used to debate specific wordings.

Curmudgeon, it's "instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane."
Travel:


Make a journey, typically of some length or abroad
Journey along (a road) or through (a region)
Go or be moved from place to place

Notice the last one mentions that you move.

NineThePuma
2010-11-09, 12:38 PM
The whole thing is amusing.

Okay, arguments aside, fluff wise, explain -both- the AC and the damage and the AC Bonus.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 12:43 PM
heck by raw you get skirmish damage from falling (which is actually cool)

brb making Scout Dragoon build


The whole thing is amusing.

Okay, arguments aside, fluff wise, explain -both- the AC and the damage and the AC Bonus.

Moving improves their focus

Tokuhara
2010-11-09, 12:48 PM
Okay, let me add my two copper pieces here...


The concept of a teleport-Skirmish is the equivelant of Goku's Instantaneous Transmission, which he becomes a beam of light, hence he moves at Light speed on a physics standpoint and thus could skirmish if he had Scout levels

The argument here is that Is Teleportation movement. Star Trek tells me yes, since to "teleport," you must dematerialize and move the particles to another area, thus counts as movement

dextercorvia
2010-11-09, 02:17 PM
From Sun School Feat:

"To use this maneuver, you must move adjacent to a foe instantaneously, as with a dimension door spell or the monk's abundant step class feature."

emphasis mine

nedz
2010-11-09, 02:30 PM
As I understand the rule: if you move 10' you get the skirmish bonus until the start of your next turn.

So: Move 10', Teleport, (Sun School) Attack should work by RAW.
It only gets you one attack mind, still if that attack is Trip, (Improved Trip) Attack, and then an AoO when they stand up you will at least get two attacks.

Skirmish Boots could add another.

The optimal number of levels of scout are probably 0 or 1.:smallbiggrin:
Or 5 with Improved Skirmish for +4d6, +3 AC after 20' move.

JBento
2010-11-09, 02:49 PM
I don't think teleport works, not because it's not movement, but because it's not enough movement. Just because you're teleporting to a square 20ft away, doesn't mean you're actually moving 20ft - you're moving five, from thesquare you started in, to the square you teleport to

Psyren
2010-11-09, 03:01 PM
I don't think teleport works, not because it's not movement, but because it's not enough movement. Just because you're teleporting to a square 20ft away, doesn't mean you're actually moving 20ft - you're moving five, from thesquare you started in, to the square you teleport to

Technically you're moving across planes. "Feet" cease to matter at that point.

Darrin
2010-11-09, 04:49 PM
Skirmish: +0.875 per class level (+1d6 every 4 levels)


But it's clear that Skirmish is on the bottom end of the bonus damage spectrum, and it generally requires a high level of investment (17 Scout and/or Ranger and/or Rogue level) to get it.

You can tweak that up to 10d6 with the right build:

Ranger 3/Scout 3/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Ranger +3/Highland Stalker 2/{open} 1
Take Swift Hunter at 6th, Improved Skirmish at 9th (or whenever).

Person_Man
2010-11-09, 05:07 PM
You can tweak that up to 10d6 with the right build:

Ranger 3/Scout 3/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Ranger +3/Highland Stalker 2/{open} 1
Take Swift Hunter at 6th, Improved Skirmish at 9th (or whenever).

That is correct. Such a build would have decent damage, excellent Skills, and other nifty perks.

But you're investing most of your class levels, 2 feats on Improved Skirmish and Swift Hunter (plus whatever pre-req feat/Skills you need for Dragon Devotee, Unseen Seer, and Highland Stalker) in order to get it. With a similar investment, you can get greater bonus damage using soulmelds, Sneak Attack, Dragonfire Inspiration, Power Attack, spells, psionics, maneuvers, and probably other things I'm forgetting at the moment.

I'm not knocking your build or Scouts in general. I'm just saying that if your goal is bonus damage, then Skirmish is an inefficient way of adding it.

BridgeCity
2010-11-10, 06:17 PM
That's some circular reasoning there.

It really isn't, it seems you have just misunderstood.

It is saying that A does not achieve skirmish, while B does. The only difference between A and B is the neccesity of moving 20 feet, therefore I choose to believe that moving 20 feet is the entire reason A does not work.

Lev
2010-11-10, 06:21 PM
I'd allow it.
http://lloydcrosby.com/images/Nightcrawler.png

Keld Denar
2010-11-10, 06:27 PM
Which leads to the question...what is the most awesome aspect of Nightcrawler? Is it the cool *bampf* noise he make when he teleports? The fact that he can tele-shank people in a cloud of blue smoke? Or is it his awesome German accent?


Okay, arguments aside, fluff wise, explain -both- the AC and the damage and the AC Bonus.

The AC is simply moving into a position where your opponent is off balance. Just like a quarterback can't throw as hard off his backfoot as he can stepping forward, a fighter can't swing his sword when he's slightly off balanced. As you get more and more experienced as a scout, you get better and better at baiting people off balance. Similarly, a person who's off balance can't dodge or block you as well as they could if they were more aware.

Boci
2010-11-10, 06:43 PM
It really isn't, it seems you have just misunderstood.

It is saying that A does not achieve skirmish, while B does. The only difference between A and B is the neccesity of moving 20 feet, therefore I choose to believe that moving 20 feet is the entire reason A does not work.

You can study someone whilst standing still, but you still need to reposition yourself based on what you learnt.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 07:46 PM
By teleporting, the scout is not spending any time studying their target, looking for a weak spot, so I, personally, would not rule that it works.

You, personally, can rule any way you like; the OP asked about RAW.

BridgeCity
2010-11-10, 08:50 PM
You can study someone whilst standing still, but you still need to reposition yourself based on what you learnt.

Sorry, I'm not sure if you are disputing me or agreeing with me, because this is what I have been saying, that the movement is important.


You, personally, can rule any way you like; the OP asked about RAW.

Dude, seriously. Take a look at the first page, the Op was answered in the 4th post, and pretty much every post after that has been people giving their opinions. Picking out my one post specifically, especially so long after it was made and after the discussion is clearly now about personal preference, looks really pointless and petty.

Boci
2010-11-10, 09:01 PM
Sorry, I'm not sure if you are disputing me or agreeing with me, because this is what I have been saying, that the movement is important.

I'm saying its the nots the movement that counts, but the reposition, so teleportation or land based movement makes no difference.

BridgeCity
2010-11-10, 09:17 PM
I'm saying its the nots the movement that counts, but the reposition, so teleportation or land based movement makes no difference.

Fair enough. As I've said I can see why people would rule this way, I just wouldn't because I feel it ruins my concept of a scout.