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Myth
2010-11-08, 09:17 AM
OK I'll shut up about 4E and the Plotplague. Can someone realistically explain to me how and why any prominent NPC in the Forgotten Realms ever actually dies from anything other than old age (assuming they have PIS /plot induced stupidity/ and don't seek out means of permanent immortality). Examples include:

Zaor Moonflower (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Zaor_Moonflower) - such an over emphasized death. His Epic Level Wizard wife Amlaruil Moonflower is even called The Sad Queen because of it. Why she didn't Wish or True Resurrect him back to life is beyond me. Or you know, just Gate to him as he is now in the Seldarine court and see him every once in a while.

Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Khelben_%22Blackstaff%22_Arunsun) - to my understanding he decided to cast an Epic spell the dumb way, sacrificing his life for it. Mkay so is he now unable to be Resurrected or what?

Any of the dead Zulkirs (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Zulkir) - Not having Contingent Resurrections, or well hidden Phylacteries is just plot induced retardation. Not to mention Clone. Or any followers/allies who would like to have an Epic caster on their good side. Heck a level 10 Rogue can UMD a scroll of True Resurrection to bring one back!

The list goes on and on. Has any of this been explained anywhere?

hamishspence
2010-11-08, 09:25 AM
Zaor Moonflower (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Zaor_Moonflower) - such an over emphasized death. His Epic Level Wizard wife Amlaruil Moonflower is even called The Sad Queen because of it. Why she didn't Wish or True Resurrect him back to life is beyond me. Or you know, just Gate to him as he is now in the Seldarine court and see him every once in a while.

Elves hate resurrecting people except in direst extremity. Plus, Zaor was pretty old at the time.


Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Khelben_%22Blackstaff%22_Arunsun) - to my understanding he decided to cast an Epic spell the dumb way, sacrificing his life for it. Mkay so is he now unable to be Resurrected or what?

Yes- one of the Mitigating Factors for Epic spells, in Lost Empires of Faerun, and Dragons of Faerun, is "caster dies with no resurrection possible": -50 to the DC of the spell.

Myth
2010-11-08, 09:32 AM
Elves hate resurrecting people except in direst extremity. Plus, Zaor was pretty old at the time.
Thanks I'm actually running an Epic FR game and i need this lore to recreate the world as RAW as possible. Where is this stated? Although it still does not explain why he never sought out immortality, or why his wife doesn't just pop a Plane Shift or Gate and go see what he is up to. She is the chosen of all the Seldarine and that will make it OK to visit every once in a while.


Yes- one of the Mitigating Factors for Epic spells, in Lost Empires of Faerun, and Dragons of Faerun, is "caster dies with no resurrection possible": -50 to the DC of the spell. A dumb move for a 40 Int character if i ever seen one. As a soul/outsider whatever happened to him now, does he still keep his character levels?

The fact of the matter is though, that there are a lot of other NPC deaths throughout the FR history, and many of them are just plain stupid to not have been reset by magic.

Psyren
2010-11-08, 09:40 AM
A dumb move for a 40 Int character if i ever seen one. As a soul/outsider whatever happened to him now, does he still keep his character levels?

The fact of the matter is though, that there are a lot of other NPC deaths throughout the FR history, and many of them are just plain stupid to not have been reset by magic.

Well you have to remember that he was a Chosen of Mystra, so her death was probably pretty traumatic for him.

Besides, Faerun is a big "cosmic balance" world like Dragonlance. If the good gods start rezzing everyone left and right, the evil gods will have justification to do it too, and before you know it every accomplishment of the heroes will last only as long as it takes for Fzoul to walk back to his corpse or whatever.

Myth
2010-11-08, 09:46 AM
Well you have to remember that he was a Chosen of Mystra, so her death was probably pretty traumatic for him.

Besides, Faerun is a big "cosmic balance" world like Dragonlance. If the good gods start rezzing everyone left and right, the evil gods will have justification to do it too, and before you know it every accomplishment of the heroes will last only as long as it takes for Fzoul to walk back to his corpse or whatever.

It doesn't take a God to cast True Resurrection, just a level 17 Cleric. Also, Blackstaff died prior to 4E shenanigans as far as i know?

hamishspence
2010-11-08, 09:47 AM
Thanks I'm actually running an Epic FR game and i need this lore to recreate the world as RAW as possible. Where is this stated? Although it still does not explain why he never sought out immortality, or why his wife doesn't just pop a Plane Shift or Gate and go see what he is up to. She is the chosen of all the Seldarine and that will make it OK to visit every once in a while.

It's stated mostly in the novels.

And in Evermeet, she does meet up with his soul for a while, before returning to the world.


Well you have to remember that he was a Chosen of Mystra, so her death was probably pretty traumatic for him.

On Khelben- his sacrifice takes place, if I remember rightly, before Mystra dies- which is a bit odd.
Maybe epic magic in the books doesn't work quite the way it does in the game- it might be, that you apply the mitigating factors of your choice during casting- and Khelben figured the only way for the spell to be cast (and thus, for the mighty elven city to be brought back) was for him to sacrifice himself- so he did.

I don't think the process destroys the soul though.

From a link on TV Tropes:
http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090539


One postscript I almost forgot: with Elminster in particular and all of the Chosen, Steven and I (at least) are delving into "how insane do you go from living so long with godly power and gods messing with your mind?" Everything El and the other Chosen do should be read in this light; they're NOT sane. I've been hinting at this for a long time, but you have to catch the hints (like the good/happy endings, this was a Code of Ethics thing, which is why we can't show villains poisoning, or succeeding, or telling you their detailed plans that someone in the real world might copy or claim as inspiration, etc.).

Callista
2010-11-08, 09:49 AM
It doesn't take a God to cast True Resurrection, just a level 17 Cleric. Also, Blackstaff died prior to 4E shenanigans as far as i know?Er... where do you think the level 17 cleric is getting his power?

There's also the fact that just because you can be resurrected doesn't mean you want to be.

Granted, I'm still quite annoyed over Cadderly Bonaduce, myself, and I think it's kind of a jerk move to go killing off characters just because you're creating a new edition.

Myth
2010-11-08, 09:52 AM
Er... where do you think the level 17 cleric is getting his power?

There's also the fact that just because you can be resurrected doesn't mean you want to be.

Granted, I'm still quite annoyed over Cadderly Bonaduce, myself, and I think it's kind of a jerk move to go killing off characters just because you're creating a new edition.

So? Since when do Good Deities deny their Clerics the power to bring other Good characters who worshiped them or were their Chosen even?

Not to mention anyone with access to Wish can bring someone back from the dead, no Gods involved.

I'm more annoyed at them clearing whole Pantheons to dumb 4E down but that's besides the point.

Psyren
2010-11-08, 09:55 AM
Granted, I'm still quite annoyed over Cadderly Bonaduce, myself, and I think it's kind of a jerk move to go killing off characters just because you're creating a new edition.

He's not dead... just sealed in place to keep watch over a ward so that he can never affect the Realms in any meaningful way again. :smalltongue:

Frankly, I'm glad they took hedge-clippers to all the high-level NPCs. Who on earth could feel heroic with the likes of Elminster overshadowing everything? The question becomes yet again "why don't you just do it yourself, old man?"

And then he stirs himself enough to turn you into a toad for your impertinence, but not enough to stop the bandits or retrieve the Hourglass of Plot or whatever.

Callista
2010-11-08, 09:58 AM
I'm not saying the gods would deny them the power, really, so much as that they wouldn't have to. A cleric at 17th level has probably had one or more direct conversations with his god. He knows intimately what would be best for his god--divine politics and all--and if that includes not resurrecting a powerful ally (which would mean that the other side would probably feel free to resurrect a powerful enemy), then he won't do so. It's not so much cleric-versus-god as, "If you've got that many cleric levels, you're so in tune with your god it doesn't really occur to you to go counter to his wishes anymore."

Not that it doesn't annoy me that they did this. Of course it does. Personally, I'm pretending it didn't happen. But there are many reasons why someone wouldn't get resurrected even if the spell is available.


He's not dead... just sealed in place to keep watch over a ward so that he can never affect the Realms in any meaningful way again. :smalltongue:And that's better how?


Frankly, I'm glad they took hedge-clippers to all the high-level NPCs. Who on earth could feel heroic with the likes of Elminster overshadowing everything? The question becomes yet again "why don't you just do it yourself, old man?"Cattie-Brie and Regis were NOT "high-level". They didn't deserve what they got, either. And Cattie-Brie's random decision to start studying magic--I mean, come on, how contrived is that!?

hamishspence
2010-11-08, 09:58 AM
Frankly, I'm glad they took hedge-clippers to all the high-level NPCs. Who on earth could feel heroic with the likes of Elminster overshadowing everything? The question becomes yet again "why don't you just do it yourself, old man?"

Some (Jarlaxle, Fzoul) are still around, though Fzoul is now an Exarch (4E equivalent of a demigod) and thus has less freedom, since his deity exerts more control over him.

Myth
2010-11-08, 10:00 AM
He's not dead... just sealed in place to keep watch over a ward so that he can never affect the Realms in any meaningful way again. :smalltongue:

Frankly, I'm glad they took hedge-clippers to all the high-level NPCs. Who on earth could feel heroic with the likes of Elminster overshadowing everything? The question becomes yet again "why don't you just do it yourself, old man?"

And then he stirs himself enough to turn you into a toad for your impertinence, but not enough to stop the bandits or retrieve the Hourglass of Plot or whatever.

Putting godly NPCs is another bad on their part. It still doesn't explain half of the ridiculous deaths.

The Simbul can solo armies, so can most of the Zulkirs, the high ranking Emerald Enlcave Druids, the Seven Sisters, any Tier 1 Chosen, the high ranking Hathrans etc. etc. The only place i can see a reasonable reason for anyone to not interfere is the Underdark or some faraway wasteland. (since the Good aligned Epic NPCs just won't care about them)

Amiel
2010-11-08, 10:02 AM
Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Khelben_%22Blackstaff%22_Arunsun) - to my understanding he decided to cast an Epic spell the dumb way, sacrificing his life for it. Mkay so is he now unable to be Resurrected or what?
Khelben was probably of the opinion that he has fulfilled many of the obligations bestowed upon him by Mystra. He probably also wouldn't consider the raising of the mythal as a sacrifice, such an act would ensure that the city is advertised as a city of lore and arcana. In other words, he succeeded in that most primary of Mystra's directives, enabling others to take up the Art.

Callista
2010-11-08, 10:02 AM
You can handle a world with high-level NPCs if you realize the politics of it. You have high-level NPCs on both sides of any struggle--but they cancel each other out. If one acts, the other will act, and the world will be destroyed in the middle; so they're locked in their mutually assured destruction and can't do anything more than interfere in the slightest, least obvious ways possible.

Psyren
2010-11-08, 10:24 AM
You can handle a world with high-level NPCs if you realize the politics of it. You have high-level NPCs on both sides of any struggle--but they cancel each other out. If one acts, the other will act, and the world will be destroyed in the middle; so they're locked in their mutually assured destruction and can't do anything more than interfere in the slightest, least obvious ways possible.

But that's a ridiculous model too. Either the high-level NPCs are so constrained by cosmic red tape hat the slightest action will destroy the balance... or slight actions are possible, but said NPCs are so genre-blind and bureaucratic (or cartoonishly evil) that the actions they DO take result in things getting worse.

And then when things DO get worse (and they will!), and they can finally take the kid gloves off and say "this is a cosmic threat!" or "this is an unprecedented opportunity!" more idiocy and bad writing follows. I remember in Elfsong (http://www.amazon.com/Elfsong-Forgotten-Realms-Songs-Swords/dp/0786916613), Khelben got paralyzed by the evil bard (please stop and contemplate this for a moment) while charging up his doom-spell. PARALYZED! An epic-level Wizard! Still Spell is IN his stat-block! He has SLAs! *vomits with rage*

hamishspence
2010-11-08, 10:27 AM
Edition changes might account for some of this. Still, even in 2nd ed, Khelben and company were pretty powerful in the rules.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-08, 11:40 AM
But that's a ridiculous model too. Either the high-level NPCs are so constrained by cosmic red tape hat the slightest action will destroy the balance... or slight actions are possible, but said NPCs are so genre-blind and bureaucratic (or cartoonishly evil) that the actions they DO take result in things getting worse.

Well, that's how it works. Super Heroes, even, in other settings are the same thing. You ask "Why doesn't Superman fix everything?" because if he escalates his role, all the super villains do too, and usually they find things for him to do so that lesser heroes can fix things. After all, super as he may be he's not omniscient, and if he's in one place he can't protect another.

And what about nuclear warheads? In theory you could fire off one of them and destroy an entire country. Think about 20th+ level characters as being nukes. They unleash their payload over a country, they could destroy it with minimal resistance unless there's another 20th+ level character waiting in the country for a counter attack. The more epic level characters a country, plane, side, faction has, the more protected they are. But it still only takes a small band of epic characters to level a country.

So they try not to flaunt their power. They don't make huge shows of magical power, because if they do, everyone else will join in. Epic characters in Faerun can do less than lower level characters, even if they do have more power. So we get them sending low level adventurers out to do their bidding while disguised as an old man using Elminster's Decrepit Transmogrification and giving them trinkets in return because it's safer for the entire population than going out and doing it yourself.

After all, playing your hand when there are Evil forces ready to strike (at you and each other) as soon as you show a sign of weakness is a bad thing.

Aharon
2010-11-08, 12:09 PM
I agree that WotC don't know their rules very well, but most of the time, this can be rather easily amended for fluff given in the actual source books. Just exchange "died casting an epic spell" with "his astral projection cast his epic spell, but shortly after, shade assassins supernatural MDJ'ed and supernatural Trap the Soul'ed him."

I also agree that high level guys not using their options is ok, because it is a bit similar to our own world:
Yes, we don't have super powerful Evil forces, but at the height of the cold war, two nations had the capability to bomb the whole world back into the 17th century. And yet, what we got were only proxy wars. I know I'm oversimplifying the situation, but that was basically what it was like. So why shouldn't one include that in the game?

Granted, it breaks down if one assumes the existence of actual nihilistic pricks with that power, who don't want to rule, but to destroy. I just try to keep those out of my games, or make it clear to the players that those people don't have allies and are hunted by everybody else.

Callista
2010-11-08, 12:17 PM
Nihilists don't tend to rise to very high power levels, at least not realistically. Their natural lack of allies really works against them in this respect; even other Evil characters are against them, since most Evil characters want to dominate or rule the world, or the most cause interesting, destructive chaos--they don't want to outright destroy it. This is why Raistlin Majere didn't go through with his plans--even though you can't get much more evil than he was. He'd have ended up alone in an empty world.

Myth
2010-11-08, 12:26 PM
I agree that WotC don't know their rules very well, but most of the time, this can be rather easily amended for fluff given in the actual source books. Just exchange "died casting an epic spell" with "his astral projection cast his epic spell, but shortly after, shade assassins supernatural MDJ'ed and supernatural Trap the Soul'ed him."

No, not really, because then Mystra would just make him not dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divin/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife) anyway. Honestly between so many reset buttons no one of note should ever die, and Khelben should have known that an Epic level Wizard with the Chosen template is more valuable alive than sacrificing himself for a paltry -50 Spellcraft DC! Not to mention he left a wife behind, as well as Waterdeep which was relying on his protection.

On the whole "cold war" aspect - this is true for the Deities (until Plotric decides to steal some tablets or kill some Goddess because WOTC said so) but for mortals... Hmm not really IMO. The Simbul stomped on several Red Wizard invasions, and so have the Witches of Rashemen. This didn't cause any major disturbance. I'm actually still wondering why Elminster, the High Elven Magelords and the other high powered arcansist just didn't nuke Zhentil keep and the Drow to oblivion via Epic magic, especially after they did some mischief on a nation wide scale. It seems that the Red Wizards, the Drow and the Zhentill keep guys can lash out and attempt invasions without the good guys ever giving them the retaliation one would assume if a cold war ever went hot.

Psyren
2010-11-08, 12:47 PM
Well, that's how it works. Super Heroes, even, in other settings are the same thing. You ask "Why doesn't Superman fix everything?" because if he escalates his role, all the super villains do too, and usually they find things for him to do so that lesser heroes can fix things. After all, super as he may be he's not omniscient, and if he's in one place he can't protect another.

You are comparing Superman to Elminster. Who very explicitly can be in more than one place at the same time, travel from point A to point B much faster than Supes, and is banging a goddess.

And let's not get started on The Simbul, or Laeral, or Khelben, etc.


And what about nuclear warheads? In theory you could fire off one of them and destroy an entire country. Think about 20th+ level characters as being nukes. They unleash their payload over a country, they could destroy it with minimal resistance unless there's another 20th+ level character waiting in the country for a counter attack. The more epic level characters a country, plane, side, faction has, the more protected they are. But it still only takes a small band of epic characters to level a country.

Poor, poor analogy. A level 20 spellcaster can do a lot more than a nuke. He is capable of mass destruction, sure, but also considerable finesse - owning and operating an entire network of informants, outfitting them all with magic items, researching customized spells etc. What's more, nothing is forcing them to use their nukes against every threat. A high-level caster has an array of tools to handle every situation, and many of the smaller threats can be taken care of with spells below 6; if that could throw off the balance, nobody would be able to do anything.


After all, playing your hand when there are Evil forces ready to strike (at you and each other) as soon as you show a sign of weakness is a bad thing.

Clearly, some unilateral machinations are possible - evil is always making the first move. Do they just employ less chatterboxes?

Aharon
2010-11-08, 01:06 PM
@Myth
Mystra doesn't have the Gift of Life SLA in the stats given in Faiths & Pantheons. Is there a more current instance of her stats that includes this SLA?

Plus, they could use the soul on crafting per BoVD rules. No soul left.

@Applicability of example
Yes, this is very decidedly not what WotC is doing. I'm ignoring some of their plot to pull this of in my campaign. I agree that WotC screws up, I just think it can be rather easily handwaved.

And, out of curiosity, when do the bad guys strike first? A real first strike would be something like using Apocalypse from the Sky, or an invasion with PoA'd troops, or a wizard with lots of Simulacra.

What you cited as an example (regular attempt at invasion) seems to be the equivalent of conventional wars (although this is caused more by WotC's incompetence at creating a believable threat within their rules than by intention). The evil side doesn't use the big guns.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-08, 01:35 PM
You are comparing Superman to Elminster. Who very explicitly can be in more than one place at the same time, travel from point A to point B much faster than Supes, and is banging a goddess.

And let's not get started on The Simbul, or Laeral, or Khelben, etc.

Er. Okay. Obviously I need to read up on more Realms lore, because Elminster's powers are kind of not my area of expertise. The core of it still stands, though. Elminster isn't an infinite resource, unless he is, which is bad writing.




Poor, poor analogy. A level 20 spellcaster can do a lot more than a nuke. He is capable of mass destruction, sure, but also considerable finesse - owning and operating an entire network of informants, outfitting them all with magic items, researching customized spells etc. What's more, nothing is forcing them to use their nukes against every threat. A high-level caster has an array of tools to handle every situation, and many of the smaller threats can be taken care of with spells below 6; if that could throw off the balance, nobody would be able to do anything.

What about a government with nukes, then? They have the firepower, a ministry of defence, a spy network and stuff like that. Each 20th level caster augments that. But remember these people have a lot of personal power, but at their core they're still just kinda people. Single people can't handle everything at once. You can't rely on a single caster to fix everyone's problems because they have the spells. There may not be rules for it, but surely fixing everywhere with your personal power must take a lot out of you? No matter how intelligent, gifted with power, or wise they are, they're still fallable. Even gods are fallable. They have egos they want stroked and vices they want fulfilled. One 20th level caster will lash out at another if you try to make them work together. There will be arguements and splinter groups. There will be delegation and laziness. Someone will be slack in their work. Someone will try to make a grab for glory on their own. Which brings me to:


Clearly, some unilateral machinations are possible - evil is always making the first move. Do they just employ less chatterboxes?

There's a lot more Evil than there is Good. Evil is just worse at teamwork, and wants glory for itself. Some of Evil makes the first move because they're short sighted and want to make a grab for it. Again, because they're flawed and possibly hubristic.

Everyone is flawed all around the board, and at their core, everyone in the entire Realms is only human. We may wax lyrical about how a single caster can fix everything, and how that upsets the balance, but... if you were in their shoes, you wouldn't be able to think of every contingency either. No plan is flawless. And slow and steady steps by a lot of people working together is better than a few powerful people with their own agendas and backing. And if the small guys fail, say, the 6th level party fighting a small threat, less is lost than if the Chosen themselves were trying to tackle everything head on. It's a fragile, uneasy web of politicking and power distribution. Noone wants to use their big guns, because the other side will. Even if it's nothing to the Chosen themselves, it's still going to be documented and used by the other side.

It's a lot of power wielded by flawed, possibly insane people. Would you trust them for every little task?

Myth
2010-11-08, 01:53 PM
Aharon: hmm i was actually wondering whether i should check her statblock before posting. Even if she doesn't have it, she has an allied God or Goddes who does. Soul destruction can be overcome by the SDA - the text is specific, the only thing preventing the resurrection is a higher level deity using the same SDA to kill the target.

Khatoblepas: Apart from Larloch, who is pretty much neutral toawrds the happenings on Faerun (but who is still conveniently left out during the whole slaying of Mystra fiasco, who with his 10th level spells could give even Cyric a run for his money) every other major caster NPC is on the good guy's side. Even Halaster, who is insane and lives in seclusion, went out of his way and tried pulling Elminster's arse out of Hell.

In fact, apart from the Twisted Rune, some Epic Dragon or other, and the eight Zulkirs of Thay there is no power that can stand up to the Chosen + the Elven Magelords from Evermeet + the Witches of Rashemen and possibly the guys in Harluaa as they'd rather have Stupid Evil wiped from the world instead of threatening their peaceful lives.

Aharon
2010-11-08, 02:14 PM
Actually, it doesn't say anything about destroyed souls, so presumably it doesn't work without a soul:

Gift of Life refers to True Ressurrection, but has some exceptions (no material component etc.)
True Ressurrection refers to Raise dead, but has some exceptions (works on outsiders etc.)
Raise dead requires the soul to be free and willing to return, which a non-existent soul can't do.

So, as neither True Ressurrection nore Gift of Life make exceptions for non-existent souls, Gift of Life doesn't work on somebody whose soul went into item creation.

This is probably a consequence of the fact that very few things can destroy souls in D&D, and the designers didn't take the existence of these things into account when writing the Gift of Life SLA.

Z3ro
2010-11-08, 02:57 PM
You are comparing Superman to Elminster. Who very explicitly can be in more than one place at the same time, travel from point A to point B much faster than Supes, and is banging a goddess.

And let's not get started on The Simbul, or Laeral, or Khelben, etc.



Poor, poor analogy. A level 20 spellcaster can do a lot more than a nuke. He is capable of mass destruction, sure, but also considerable finesse - owning and operating an entire network of informants, outfitting them all with magic items, researching customized spells etc. What's more, nothing is forcing them to use their nukes against every threat. A high-level caster has an array of tools to handle every situation, and many of the smaller threats can be taken care of with spells below 6; if that could throw off the balance, nobody would be able to do anything.



Clearly, some unilateral machinations are possible - evil is always making the first move. Do they just employ less chatterboxes?

It appears you might be misunderstanding drama. This is why Drizzt does not win every sword fight with a single attack, even against low-level guards and mooks.

Sure, superman could solve every problem himself. But then you have no drama, no reason to read the story. As much sense as it might make mechanically, if these characters where as powerful as their D&D counterparts, those novels would be a paragraph long about how awesome they are.

Psyren
2010-11-08, 02:59 PM
It appears you might be misunderstanding drama. This is why Drizzt does not win every sword fight with a single attack, even against low-level guards and mooks.

Sure, superman could solve every problem himself. But then you have no drama, no reason to read the story. As much sense as it might make mechanically, if these characters where as powerful as their D&D counterparts, those novels would be a paragraph long about how awesome they are.

I am not "misunderstanding drama." It is their fault for making Boring Invincible Characters, followed by tossing them the Idiot Ball whenever they need them out of commission for the little guys to shine, and then finally committing mass murder when they realized the setting would buckle under their weight.

Eberron did this the right way. The gods are a question, not an answer; everything that IS epic has something bigger to worry about than politics and religion (i.e. the prophecy) and there is a ton of mystery for the PCs to uncover.

Z3ro
2010-11-08, 03:03 PM
I am not "misunderstanding drama." It is their fault for making Boring Invincible Characters, followed by tossing them the Idiot Ball whenever they need them out of commission for the little guys to shine, and then finally committing mass murder when they realized the setting would buckle under their weight.

Eberron did this the right way. The gods are a question; everything that IS epic has something bigger to worry about than politics and religion (i.e. the prophecy) and there is a ton of mystery for the PCs to uncover.

Then why so upset? WotC realized their mistake, and fixed it. Now that the boring invincible characters are our of the way, the little guys can shine. Problem solved.

Callista
2010-11-08, 03:05 PM
Why is it suddenly not dramatic to balance powerful characters and gods against each other? I think it's plenty dramatic. WotC handles it wrong sometimes, but that would be how it worked out in a world where characters could get that powerful.

Powerful doesn't equal omnipotent. When there are other equally powerful people on the other side, powerful can equal little more than the ability to let the world be the way it would be if both you and your enemy weren't there.

Sipex
2010-11-08, 03:09 PM
I'd like to point out that sometimes epic, one-way deaths trump ressurection because it adds weight and risk to the situation.

Think of ressurrection more along the line of "Here's a tool for the PCs so they don't whine when their characters die."

Psyren
2010-11-08, 03:13 PM
Then why so upset? WotC realized their mistake, and fixed it. Now that the boring invincible characters are our of the way, the little guys can shine. Problem solved.

Wha...? Upset? :smallconfused:

Did you read my post?


Frankly, I'm glad they took hedge-clippers to all the high-level NPCs. Who on earth could feel heroic with the likes of Elminster overshadowing everything? The question becomes yet again "why don't you just do it yourself, old man?"

Z3ro
2010-11-08, 03:26 PM
Wha...? Upset? :smallconfused:

Did you read my post?

Sorry, must have had you confused with another poster.

JBento
2010-11-08, 04:57 PM
My greatest sadness about the Realsmlore update is that Elminster is STILL not frikkin' dead. :smallfurious:

And, like many here, I fail to comprehend HOW the Good guys in the Realms don't pwn everything - seriously, between having nearly all the high-level spellcasters, they also have the Church of Mystra, who accesses the another-example-of-FR-retardation that is the Initiate of Mystra feat that lets you cast spells in both AMFs and Dead Magic Zones (something that Mystra herself was unable to do or repair). :smallyuk:

Unless, of course, they're all worried about the Sarrukhs... :smallmad:

Myth
2010-11-08, 05:20 PM
I sort of like Elminster. I wonder how they mutilated him in 4E. Arcane magic in 4E is like a weak bowel movement when compared to the glorious hurricane that it is in 3.5, or so i hear.

What i can't get my brain around is how the bloody hell does Mystra die anyway?

First of all, Mystra MK1 aka Mystryl has died once. Midnight stepped in, and nothing changed for the worse.

Second of all, an event of the magnitude of the Spellplague sort of brushes the edge of Mystra's Portfolio Sense. I mean it's sort of related to ALL THE MAGIC EVERYWHERE right? Portfolio Sense should have warned her.

How the bloody hell does that pathetic loser Cyric kill God after God after God. WOTC are crapping on their own published material! The SDAs and writeups for the Deities suggest that they can't really be one-shotted in a single round (except for the use of Epic magic, but if we count that well guess who has the advantage). And Mystra (even if she thought she'd get killed) could just retreat to the Seldarine court or any other bunch of allied Gods and be just fine. Did she just stand there while Plotric wailed on her with his +5 stick?

Why didn't anyone take up Mystra's mantle? The Simbul would have been perfect. Is she a potent caster? check. Is she female? check. Is she Elmo's plaything? check. Sounds like the perfect Mystra MK3.

Stuff doesn't make sense. It just doesn't.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-08, 05:23 PM
Second of all, an event of the magnitude of the Spellplague sort of brushes the edge of Mystra's Portfolio Sense. I mean it's sort of related to ALL THE MAGIC EVERYWHERE right? Portfolio Sense should have warned her.


Spellplague happened after her death. So she was too dead to care about warnings.

JBento
2010-11-08, 05:26 PM
Stuff doesn't make sense. It just doesn't.

A Wizards' Goddess' Killer did it :smallamused:

Myth
2010-11-08, 05:27 PM
Spellplague happened after her death. So she was too dead to care about warnings.
:miko:
...

Portfolio Sense:

Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

Esser-Z
2010-11-08, 05:33 PM
DC 15: The Forgotten Realms attacks with its teeth and claws.




To avoid spamming, I just try not to think too much about how the Realms works. It's all kinds of screwy.

Psyren
2010-11-08, 05:36 PM
:miko:
...

You're forgetting who killed her. Cyric (God of Secrets) and Shar (Miss Shadow Weave herself). If anyone could hide Mystra's impending demise from her, it would be these two.

blackjack217
2010-11-08, 05:36 PM
cat and regis died because RAS would never allow an offscrene death for characters he had been writing for the past 20+ years. Also he kills off most of the non-long-lived characters died in the transitions novels. Also the one thing I never understood is why Eliastree absorbed the power of that god because the other decent god in the drow pantheon did something similar. Also why did she never cheat at chess? after all they say never trust a drow

Myth
2010-11-08, 05:42 PM
You're forgetting who killed her. Cyric (God of Secrets) and Shar (Miss Shadow Weave herself). If anyone could hide Mystra's impending demise from her, it would be these two.

There's no actual mechanic to back this up. Even if they insisted on it those two rejects can't drop Mystra in one round. I'm not sure they'd even win Initative (must check if any of the three has Supreme Initiative)

Reverent-One
2010-11-08, 05:48 PM
There's no actual mechanic to back this up. Even if they insisted on it those two rejects can't drop Mystra in one round. I'm not sure they'd even win Initative (must check if any of the three has Supreme Initiative)

We're not talking about something happening in a game session, which must be bound by the rules of the game, but in the realm of fiction. I would not assume that the stats in the rulebooks are exact replicas of what the characters can really do, as the characters are not restricted by game rules in their own "real" universe.

Z3ro
2010-11-08, 05:48 PM
There's no actual mechanic to back this up. Even if they insisted on it those two rejects can't drop Mystra in one round. I'm not sure they'd even win Initative (must check if any of the three has Supreme Initiative)

These are books, not sessions at a gaming table. Characters and dieties can have things like plot armor if needed. You know who goes first in initiative order between gods? Whoever the author says goes first. I don't understand this insistence that the actions in the novels match what is written exactly in the gaming books.

Edit: ninja'd

Psyren
2010-11-08, 05:49 PM
There's no actual mechanic to back this up.

Cyric cast Shadow Miracle and Shar granted it. Or they both used Alter Reality.

Honestly, them being able to kill Mystra is as nonsensical as Mystra being top dog in the first place. Mystra's primary advantage over the other deities was her control of the Weave. Since that never applied to Shar to begin with... yeah.

And Shar has what, thousands of years on her? I'm just surprised it didn't happen sooner.

Yora
2010-11-08, 05:50 PM
OK I'll shut up about 4E and the Plotplague. Can someone realistically explain to me how and why any prominent NPC in the Forgotten Realms ever actually dies from anything other than old age (assuming they have PIS /plot induced stupidity/ and don't seek out means of permanent immortality).
People already have the 2nd and 3rd Edition books that describe the FR. If you want to sell them more FR books, they have to have different content, the world must be different.

Coidzor
2010-11-08, 08:11 PM
{{scrubbed}}

Never seen the draw of the setting, myself.

Andion Isurand
2010-11-09, 02:19 AM
People already have the 2nd and 3rd Edition books that describe the FR. If you want to sell them more FR books, they have to have different content, the world must be different.

The PlotPlague hasn't really affected me much given that I haven't really bought into any 4e products. I'm just dissappointed they failed to put out any 3.5 books about Kara-Tur, Zakhara or Maztica before the edition expired.... or fleshed out the other creator races like the Batrachi or Aaerae (with Archetypal Shape like the Sarrukh should have had)

Even if there were no 4e, I'd like to see Mystra fall in some way or at least laid low indefinately in some death-like state... such that her portfolio and the different schools of magic could be scattered amongst a group of deities.... such that her former chosen would be knocked down a few pegs and the AMF Initiate builds would be undone ...but no spellplague would visit its effects upon the realms.

Yora
2010-11-09, 05:50 AM
What's more nonsensical is how much people eat up FR.

Never seen the draw of the setting, myself.

It's quite nice when you play it, but there's indeed not that much reason to pick it, if you have other alternatives to choose from.
For some reason, a lot of people who play D&D in Germany almost exclusively play in The North. Could be because of the Driz'zt novels and the Bioware games, but I've never heard of anyone playing a game in Calimshan, Rashemen, Mulhorand or at the Moonsea. I've seen the Dales once, but that's it. But for most people I know, the FR are really just the Sword Coast North and the High Forest, and that's the entire setting.
And I like that part too, though I don't care for anything else about that setting. :smallbiggrin:

Alleran
2010-11-09, 06:08 AM
As a soul/outsider whatever happened to him now, does he still keep his character levels?
Khelben was sent to Arvandor, his tasks done. He had to carry Mystra's essence for a long time (approximately eight hundred years, give or take), so for him, it was time to rest. He had no designs on immortality. None of the Chosen do (well, the ones we know about, anyway).


Frankly, I'm glad they took hedge-clippers to all the high-level NPCs. Who on earth could feel heroic with the likes of Elminster overshadowing everything? The question becomes yet again "why don't you just do it yourself, old man?"
There's a "On the Concerns of the Mighty" sidebar in the FRCS, talking about why the Epic-level wizards don't just obliterate each other. Long story short, they're so busy planning, counter-planning, counter-counter-planning, counter-counter-counter-planning, counter-counter-counter-counter-planning, and counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-planning against each other that odds are you'll never see their hand in events.

Manshoon himself (a Wizard 23 / Archmage 2 in 3rd, as I recall) has demonstrated that sometimes, even for an Epic wizard, it isn't a good idea to just rush in. He tried that against Elminster in the Spellfire novel, and got in way over his head. He had to deal with Elminster, all the Knights of Myth Drannor, and a very powerful spellfire wielder in the process. Considering that all he had on his side was an ancient black dragon and the items he had on him at the time, no actual "heavy combat" repertoire prepared (given that wizards can and would change their selection depending on what they're going to be doing), and wasn't thinking straight owing to his favourite concubine being killed maybe an hour earlier (a concubine that he actually did care about)... well, it shows why the big guns are busy plotting and manipulating lesser adventurers rather than doing everything themselves.


Mystra's primary advantage over the other deities was her control of the Weave. Since that never applied to Shar to begin with... yeah.
Mystra's power comes from the fact that the Weave was an interface allowing mortals to use magic safely. It was the same with deities - you want to use magic in Realmspace, you usually have to use the Weave. Even Shar and her Shadow Weave is dependent on the Weave, because the Shadow Weave is like the spaces between walls in a house. It's also "less" than the true Weave, to the point where spellfire (a manifestation of raw magic) rends it even faster than it does Weave-based energies. Nor can a spellfire wielder actually gain any power from absorbing Shadow Weave spells (though there's no mechanic to represent this). It's like eating a the shadow of food rather than the food itself. And when the Weave (which is Mystra, because the two are one and the same) crashed like a computer getting a power surge, the Shadow Weave went down with it (Shar thought she would be able to hold it stable and thus control the interface... she was wrong).

There are other non-Weave and non-Shadow Weave ways to access magic, though. I know that Ed Greenwood has given the names of at least three in the past, though I can't recall what they were offhand.

EDIT: Apparently, when Greenwood was asked about the possibility of Mystra returning and potential plans she might have put in place to that effect, his reply was that there's a NDA in place preventing him from talking about it. To me, that pretty much says she could well have a plan for returning in place - considering recent and past events, even probably had a plan. Potentially multiple plans.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-09, 06:15 AM
What i can't get my brain around is how the bloody hell does Mystra die anyway?
Doesn't Mystra simply die with every edition change? She should have Edition Changes in her portfolio :smalltongue:

Yora
2010-11-09, 06:19 AM
Actually, this is just the third time Mystra was killed. I could have sworn it had happened more often.

Anterean
2010-11-09, 06:29 AM
Doesn't Mystra simply die with every edition change? She should have Edition Changes in her portfolio :smalltongue:

If the fall of netheril marked the start of second edition, that this is pretty accurate

hamishspence
2010-11-09, 06:35 AM
I don't think the dates match up. The Time of Troubles (Mystra's second death) were way before 3rd ed, and match up more closely to 2nd ed.

Similarly, I don't know if there was a changeover from Basic to 1st ed that was marked with The Fall Of Netheril.

Alleran
2010-11-09, 06:38 AM
Nope, 2E came in with the Time of Troubles. 3E had no changeover, though I know a few people think that it was a multiversal change that happened as a result of the battle between Vecna and the Lady.

Prior to the Fall of Netheril, there was a different magic system again. Most of Mystra's changes had to do with preventing 10th level spells (and higher), forcing people looking for that kind of power to use Epic magic instead. A few individuals have the power to use 10th level spells, but they're rare. The Chosen can do it (as long as Mystra gives them permission, which she actually does withhold if she thinks it unnecessary - 10th level spells and higher are very draining on the Weave, after all), Larloch can do it (Mystra gave him a continuing permission in exchange for several services rendered - he also cares enough about the Weave that he would defend it wholeheartedly if it were ever threatened, and had some sort of relationship with Mystryl that has never been elaborated on), the Magister can do it (though only once, and at the price of immediately giving up their position in exchange), and I think a couple of others.

Myth
2010-11-09, 06:56 AM
Yes I was very disappointed that Larloch didn't immediately proceed to do something about Mystra's death. Do we have any idea who the Magistrate was at the time of Mystra's assassination?

On a side note, do we know or have seen any published 10th level spell (or higher?). How do they rank up vs. regular Epic magic?

edit: Not sure about 10thl level spells being draining on the Weave. I thought Mystrul banned them after the fall of Netheril to prevent anyone ever casting Karsus' Avatar?

Alleran
2010-11-09, 07:12 AM
Yeah, but one of the problems with the Netherese use of magic is that because they drew all the power for their spells from the Weave, it was the Weave that had to support its use. And the use of their floating cities, and mythallars, and all the other 10th-level and higher stuff.


Yes I was very disappointed that Larloch didn't immediately proceed to do something about Mystra's death. Do we have any idea who the Magistrate was at the time of Mystra's assassination?
Probably the same one that's listed in the Magic of Faerun book. Talatha Vaerovree. She's a Wiz17 / Acm3, with the +4 CR from the Magister template. And all the goodies that template adds, such as a 10th level Mind Blank spell, ignores all 6th level and lower magical barriers, immune to enchantment spells, effects and psionics, her spell-like abilities, spell immunities, and so on and so forth.

Oh, and easy (ish) XP gain. All she has to do is teach somebody a spell, and she gains XP equivalent to 1/2 the cost of that spell if said spell were a scroll. Start a mage school, rake in the XP.


On a side note, do we know or have seen any published 10th level spell (or higher?). How do they rank up vs. regular Epic magic?
Well, there are some 10th level and 11th level spells in the old Netheril sourcebook. Going by their equivalents in 3E:

Create Volcano (10th): Volcano (Sandstorm, DC 56, but much weaker even without mitigation)
Proctiv's Move Mountain (10th): Proctiv's Move Mountain (Player's Guide to Faerun, DC 280, but has -70 in mitigation)
Tolodine's Killing Wind (10th): Tolodine's Killing Wind (Player's Guide to Faerun, DC 70 with -100 in mitigation)

10th level spells alone would appear to be significantly more powerful (or significantly easier, anyway) than their comparison in Epic magic. One 11th level spell was designed to literally close off a crystal sphere (i.e. all of Realmspace) to any spelljamming ships. Period.

Esser-Z
2010-11-09, 07:18 AM
Actually, this is just the third time Mystra was killed. I could have sworn it had happened more often.
That's just about every edition change! :smalltongue:

Myth
2010-11-09, 07:44 AM
Yeah, but one of the problems with the Netherese use of magic is that because they drew all the power for their spells from the Weave, it was the Weave that had to support its use. And the use of their floating cities, and mythallars, and all the other 10th-level and higher stuff.


Probably the same one that's listed in the Magic of Faerun book. Talatha Vaerovree. She's a Wiz17 / Acm3, with the +4 CR from the Magister template. And all the goodies that template adds, such as a 10th level Mind Blank spell, ignores all 6th level and lower magical barriers, immune to enchantment spells, effects and psionics, her spell-like abilities, spell immunities, and so on and so forth.

Oh, and easy (ish) XP gain. All she has to do is teach somebody a spell, and she gains XP equivalent to 1/2 the cost of that spell if said spell were a scroll. Start a mage school, rake in the XP.


Well, there are some 10th level and 11th level spells in the old Netheril sourcebook. Going by their equivalents in 3E:

Create Volcano (10th): Volcano (Sandstorm, DC 56, but much weaker even without mitigation)
Proctiv's Move Mountain (10th): Proctiv's Move Mountain (Player's Guide to Faerun, DC 280, but has -70 in mitigation)
Tolodine's Killing Wind (10th): Tolodine's Killing Wind (Player's Guide to Faerun, DC 70 with -100 in mitigation)

10th level spells alone would appear to be significantly more powerful (or significantly easier, anyway) than their comparison in Epic magic. One 11th level spell was designed to literally close off a crystal sphere (i.e. all of Realmspace) to any spelljamming ships. Period.

Would that be Netheril: Empire of Magic? I'll check it out, it seems it has some interesting things even if they are AD&D. That 11th level spell... Closing off a Crystal Sphere is no feat any mortal should possibly accomplish. That's just wow.. If ol' Larloch has such spells in his arsenal he better be planning something. Although if the 4E got to him he can kiss his arcane power goodbye.

Alleran
2010-11-09, 07:57 AM
Would that be Netheril: Empire of Magic?
Yeah. It has some other examples of 10th and 11th level spells on top of that - I just listed the ones that I knew had readily available comparisons. A couple of others:

Worldweave: Alter weather patterns continent-wide (archwizards used it to stave off the polar ice).
Spheresail: Travel via spelljamming without having to bother with spelljamming helms, and going at double the speed of regular spelljamming.
Earthfast: Makes large areas of land immune to cave-ins and so on. Also halted weathering on city streets and buildings as a side-effect.

Earthfast probably has equivalents in High Magic somewhere, since the city of Waterdeep is protected from cave-ins by something very similar.


If ol' Larloch has such spells in his arsenal he better be planning something. Although if the 4E got to him he can kiss his arcane power goodbye.
Nothing has been said about him - as far as I know, at least, he's still alive, though where he is and what he's doing is unknown. Which might be JUST AS PLANNED as far as he cares.

It's a bit irritating, too, since the only thing that could actually draw him away from his studies is stated to be, amusingly, an imminent and direct threat to the Weave. What he was doing pre-4E, though:

"He is, however, interested in creating and controlling a network of portals linking many planes and crystal spheres. Like all of his endeavors, this network would be used to advance his research, as the portals would be designed to relieve their users of powerful magic items, and record any arcane secrets contained in their minds. Though the portals themselves are simple enough to create (Larloch has personally visited more planes than almost anyone on Toril), the special enchantments are still proving problematic, even after various centuries of research."

Also, any other plans he might have are so far-reaching and complex that not even the various Chosen of Mystra, for all their observation, know what they are. It's been hinted at, of course. His special relationship with Mystra and Mystryl before her, something related to potential Chosen of Mystryl, that he seems to be containing something, and many other things.

Myth
2010-11-09, 08:22 AM
Yes i read the spells, they are quite spectacular. It's amusing to continue reading to see the Priest (aka Cleric) spells ranging from 1 to 7.

In 3.5 Faerun would a Cleric be able to manifest a 10th level spell (or greater?). Would a Druid be able to do it, or any other class like Psionics or Wu Jens. It seems to me the very top of the foodchain is Arcanist (in other words Wizard) only. At least as far as AD&D is concerned.

Larloch has been traveling around other Crystal Spheres, which could mean he is somewhere (Greyhawk?) where 3.5 is still in effect.

edit: I also started reading this thread in Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10527). Apparently i have to check out Secrets of the Magister as well for more elaboration on casting 10th level spells without explicit permission. Mainly this snippet:

[Mystra] did this by altering their enchantments to make them both inoperative and incomprehensible to the Netherese alive at the time (in other words, all of the recorded incantation could no longer "take hold of the Weave" at all, and hence the spells simply would not work). Mystra also altered a few of the symbols and glyphs of these incantations to make the injurious to the minds of beings attempting to memorize them or read and tinker with them.

History incorrectly records this as changing humans to make the use of such magic beyond their grasp, or changing the nature of magic to make spells of greater than 9th level unintelligible to humans, because that is what the goddess wanted mortals to believe (to keep strivings after such forbidden spells to a minimum, and the waste of spellcasters' lives and efforts small).

It is possible, in the Realms of today, to research True Dweomers adn even new 9th level spells to achieve specific, severely limited ends that resemble parts of what a 10th level spell could achieve. It is also possible for mortal spellcasters alive today to use any written 10th level magic they may find, with the following warnings:

- Attempts to cast such magic will always fail the first time.
- All castings will be failures if the caster has less than 18 Intelligence and 16 Wisdom, and is of less than 20th level.
- All castings result in unintended wild magic results if the caster does not have the assistance of a second spell caster (of at least 18th level and 18 Intelligence) who uses another spell or spells to link his or her will, mind, and life energy to the principal caster, as an "anchor." Minor (or deliberate) discord among casters prevents the effective use of a third or additional spellcasters joining the anchor to make the spell more likely to take precise effect.
- All casting attempts are very likely (85% chance) to result in a loss of one experience level on the part of all casters involved, and will always cause the loss of 2d6 hit points and 1d4 other memorized spells (if any) from each of them.
- All casting attempts attract the attention of both Mystra and Azuth. If they deem the casting to be for purely personal ends, or to have the death or destruction of a rival mage or magical items as their primary goal, or to be in support of any tyranny or oppressive authority (in other words, to work against the free and individualistic ongoing development of magic use across Faerun), they will cause the end result to be feeblemindedness of all the casters involved and the instant disappearance of the written spell.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 09:13 AM
{{Scrubbed}}

Never seen the draw of the setting, myself.

Until DDO, it was the only setting in the CRPGs (besides a smattering of Planescape), and is still the most ubiquitous on that front. It also had the most books about it.

I dislike the setting too, but it's the reason many people (including myself) were introduced to tabletop gaming in general and D&D in particular. Hell, ignorance is bliss - I thought it was all right up until I read my first Eberron sourcebook.

DeltaEmil
2010-11-09, 09:29 AM
I blame it on the Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate-series. I'm also sure that the reason why Baldur's Gate has become the largest and most important city in 4th edition is exactly because of the 2nd edition computer game, and that Wizards of the Coast tried to capitalize upon it.
The thousand dumb gods of the Forgotten Realms are dumb anyway, so yeah...

Myth
2010-11-09, 09:42 AM
I hear that the Neterese are rising again and the Floating Cities are back. Also a major Netherese city is back from the Plane of Shadow? In light of these events ol' Baldur's Gate and it's constipated Cowled Wizards doesn't sound too hot. But then again the only contact i've had with 4E is trough the FR wiki.

hamishspence
2010-11-09, 10:00 AM
I hear that the Neterese are rising again and the Floating Cities are back. Also a major Netherese city is back from the Plane of Shadow? In light of these events ol' Baldur's Gate and it's constipated Cowled Wizards doesn't sound too hot. But then again the only contact i've had with 4E is trough the FR wiki.

The City of Shade, after returning at the beginning of 3rd ed, proceeded to start rebuilding its empire.

There were a few setbacks (and, in the War of the Archwizards novels, also released right at the start of 3rd ed, several of the Princes of Shade were killed- though it's not clear how permanent this was).

However, they now have a small empire where the Desert of Anauroch used to be- it's now fertile land.

And they refloated a wrecked floating city that had crashed in the sea.

What may be scarier than the Netherese- the Imaskari are back- the guys who abducted populations from other worlds, and were only defeated by avatars of what would later be called the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons.

The survivors retreated into the Underdark, and after (during?) the Spellplague, when Mulhorand was devastated, they returned to the surface, and now have great cities.

Callista
2010-11-09, 01:21 PM
So, in other words, they've just replaced the old uber-powerful people with new ones.

hamishspence
2010-11-09, 01:24 PM
So, in other words, they've just replaced the old uber-powerful people with new ones.

More a case of uber-powerful factions, than people, here. Most of the old high level heroes are gone, but with the new factions (Imaskari and the like) you can have run -ins with cultures that feel a bit different than the standard pre-Spellplague cultures.

Yora
2010-11-09, 02:22 PM
Yet still, they can sell it with the Forgotten Realms brand on the front cover! Brilliant!

hamishspence
2010-11-09, 02:27 PM
Yup- it's still very Realms-y, it's just some things have been removed and others added.

But much of the old geography is still there, many of the old deities are still there, and so on.

And, in the prologue and epilogue to The Orc King (set in the "present day" 4E era, Drizzt is still there.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 02:38 PM
And, in the prologue and epilogue to The Orc King (set in the "present day" 4E era, Drizzt is still there.

Well, it wouldn't really be X-Men without Wolverine :smalltongue:


So, in other words, they've just replaced the old uber-powerful people with new ones.

The concentration isn't nearly as pronounced anymore, and that was the main problem with the setting. There is no Simbul that can nuke an army solo, and the few people left that have that kind of power (e.g. Fzoul, Cadderly) have been tied down with ruby-red plot-tape.

This is not to say that FR is good, only better. I still rank it behind the other three 4e settings.

DeltaEmil
2010-11-09, 02:52 PM
I still rank it behind the other three 4e settings. I'd guess that would be Eberron and Dark Sun, right? Which one would be the third? Gamma World? :smallredface:

hamishspence
2010-11-09, 02:54 PM
I was figuring the 3rd was "Points Of Light" the one which the books treat as default. Nerath, Arkhosia, Bael Turath, etc.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 02:59 PM
I'd guess that would be Eberron and Dark Sun, right? Which one would be the third? Gamma World? :smallredface:

Greyhawk, the default setting.
EDIT: I assumed it was Greyhawk, it might be "Points of Light". Whichever one has Ioun, Raven Queen etc.

Gamma World is cool too, but I would use proxies rather than going for their booster packs.

bloodtide
2010-11-09, 03:01 PM
The basic answer to the question, why does WOTC screw things up so much?, is that they are using a shared world.

Each character, and that character's whole reality in the Realms, is unique to that character. The whole rest of the Realms does not exist for them. This is a common shared world problem.

No author will (mostly) ever write a story where their main character does nothing and has to be saved by another character. The hero of a story is a hero for a reason. Star Wars would not have worked if Luke had missed the Death Star, for example.

Take Drizzt. If you look through all the FR books, he is just one of dozens and dozens of near epic level characters. However, in just the reality of the books(aka novels) that Drizzt is in, he is the king of the hill. All the other characters and monsters don't exist. At no point in a Drizzt novel will Elminster(or any other character) swoop in and save the day. Even more so in the big drama events.

Take the 'Battle for Mithral Hall'. Alustrel shows up for a couple of minutes and casts a couple of fireballs. The epic, Chosen of Mystra, archmage supreme.....cast a couple of fireballs. Third level spells. She could have taken out at least half of the drow army...easily. But, of course, she forgot to read her character sheet.

In any work of fiction, you have to ignore the reality side of things. In fiction, only a handful of people do anything(the stars) and everyone esle just sit around.

This problem also comes up in shared worlds like Star Trek, where the star actors do everything...as they are the stars. When Earth is attacked, it only matters what the Enterprise does...everyone else does not exist. When a monster is loose on the ship, send the stars to go find it.

So you need to look at each 'piece' of the Realms as a different, separate reality. They don't interact and don't exist for each other.

Coidzor
2010-11-09, 03:03 PM
Until DDO, it was the only setting in the CRPGs (besides a smattering of Planescape), and is still the most ubiquitous on that front. It also had the most books about it.

I dislike the setting too, but it's the reason many people (including myself) were introduced to tabletop gaming in general and D&D in particular. Hell, ignorance is bliss - I thought it was all right up until I read my first Eberron sourcebook.

I don't dislike the setting, I just don't understand what the basis for its rise to center stage from being one of many was.

hamishspence
2010-11-09, 03:07 PM
Greyhawk, the default setting.
EDIT: I assumed it was Greyhawk, it might be "Points of Light". Whichever one has Ioun, Raven Queen etc.


it's very Greyhawk-like, but some of the deities are removed or changed. As well as some of the history and geography. But some Greyhawk staples still remain- like the Tomb of Horrors.

Manual of the Planes does have guidelines for converting the standard Points of Light cosmology, back into the Great Wheel cosmology.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 03:55 PM
I don't dislike the setting, I just don't understand what the basis for its rise to center stage from being one of many was.

Wikipedia says the setting's popularity was due to the books (RAS and Greenwood) but that smacks of putting the cart before the horse to me.

Maybe it had something to do with all the "Bothered About D&D" controversy that was cropping up? FR products first saw print in '87, not long after BADD was founded. 2nd-ed, and its sanitization of terms like "demon" and "devil" came very soon after.

Callista
2010-11-09, 05:44 PM
Huh? Why did they need to worry about changing "demons" and "devils"? They've been evil as long as D&D has existed.

DeltaEmil
2010-11-09, 05:50 PM
Oh, you know, a few people believed that D&D was a satanistic game that tried to brainwash youngster into worshipping the devil and teaching them occult stuff where you go around sacrificing people and other dark stuff.

So to counter that notion, TSR renamed the devils and demons into extradimensional "aliens" (outsiders) called Tana'ri and Baatezu.

The Big Dice
2010-11-09, 05:55 PM
Huh? Why did they need to worry about changing "demons" and "devils"? They've been evil as long as D&D has existed.

It was an 80s thing. You had BADD complaining about RPGs, while other organizations with better connections complained about music a little more successfully than the crackpots who didn't like funny shaped dice.

Talya
2010-11-09, 06:03 PM
Nothing beyond 3.5 edition ever happened! Honestly, I cannot stand 4e Realmslore, at all. For me, Faerun is in permanent stasis after the War of the Spider Queen novels. This is especially convenient as I don't play 4th edition, so whatever point they started butchering Realmslore in preparation for 4e is where one can set a 3.5 campaign, ignoring everything that happened afterward.

Apparently, Mirt the Moneylender Ed Greenwood sets all his campaigns before the "Time of Troubles" and has nothing past 2nd edition happening, either, so I figure i'm entirely justified!

Callista
2010-11-09, 06:03 PM
Wow. I mean, I'd heard about them; but I hadn't realized just how crazy they were. You have to be pretty averse to logic before you try to ban a game because the villains are evil. What are you supposed to fight--fluffy kittens and unicorns? (Well, the kitten is pretty dangerous, but still!) I feel like I have to apologize to the D&D community for the extremists in my religion now...

Alleran
2010-11-09, 06:09 PM
More a case of uber-powerful factions, than people, here.
Not quite - Shade alone has Telamont Tanthul and eleven other epic-level wizards, even by 4E standards of wizardry. That's on top of the high-level wizards everywhere else in the city.

Telamont was more powerful than Elminster pre-Sellplague, too (he was a 35th level caster, and El was only 29th).

Reverent-One
2010-11-09, 09:44 PM
Wikipedia says the setting's popularity was due to the books (RAS and Greenwood) but that smacks of putting the cart before the horse to me.


RAS himself backs that up, he told the story of how his writing career actually started in a seminar at Gencon this year and he said that TSR had no idea Greenwood's first book set in FR would be so popular (Dragonlance was the big seller at the time) and it's only because they were scrambling for authors to write more that he got the job.

Tyrant
2010-11-09, 09:50 PM
The City of Shade, after returning at the beginning of 3rd ed, proceeded to start rebuilding its empire.

There were a few setbacks (and, in the War of the Archwizards novels, also released right at the start of 3rd ed, several of the Princes of Shade were killed- though it's not clear how permanent this was).

However, they now have a small empire where the Desert of Anauroch used to be- it's now fertile land.

And they refloated a wrecked floating city that had crashed in the sea.
I'm pretty sure that any that were killed were brought back. The FRCG lists 12 plus Telamont (or 12 counting Telamont, I can't recall for sure which way it is). I do know that they were more or less a match for the Chosen and their equivalent of the Silver Fire reacted to real Silver Fire by opening holes into other planes. They also now control Sembia and had Thamalon Uskevren II turned into a shade so they could use him as a puppet.

Not quite - Shade alone has Telamont Tanthul and eleven other epic-level wizards, even by 4E standards of wizardry. That's on top of the high-level wizards everywhere else in the city.

Telamont was more powerful than Elminster pre-Sellplague, too (he was a 35th level caster, and El was only 29th).
Well, Telamont is older (I believe he knew Karsus) and a Netherese archmage so I can understand him being more powerful. After the events of the Twilight War trilogy Rivalen Tanthul is more or less a demigod as well (and the FRCG backs this up saying that he is as powerful as some Exarchs) and the highest ranking member of the Church of Shar (can't recall the title).

hamishspence
2010-11-10, 03:42 AM
The point being that most of the people being cleared away from the scene, are the uber-powered, famous, Good people.

The evil people, like Jarlaxle, or Orbakh (vampire Manshoon) or Terpenzi, or Szass Tam, have tended to be left in place.

So- the spellplague (and events before it) tended to remove big-name Good guys from play.

But some of the antagonists, are still around.

Alleran
2010-11-10, 08:04 AM
The point being that most of the people being cleared away from the scene, are the uber-powered, famous, Good people.

The evil people, like Jarlaxle, or Orbakh (vampire Manshoon) or Terpenzi, or Szass Tam, have tended to be left in place.

So- the spellplague (and events before it) tended to remove big-name Good guys from play.

But some of the antagonists, are still around.
I always took issue with that. It's like they're assuming that players only ever have good characters, and that powerful good characters will outshine the PCs. What happens when my evil game can't be awesome because I don't have powerful good antagonists to fight? How am I supposed to explain why evil, with nobody powerful enough to stall them, doesn't just take over the world and be done with it?

All the high-powered evil NPCs are getting in the way of my game, so I must demand, as a simple necessity, that Wizards of the Coast remove any character above the level my PC is at. It's frankly the only way that I can be the star, because the GM obviously can't figure it out himself. Of course, if I'm starting at level 1, I expect any character level 2 and above to be removed from the world.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-10, 09:07 AM
I always took issue with that. It's like they're assuming that players only ever have good characters, and that powerful good characters will outshine the PCs. What happens when my evil game can't be awesome because I don't have powerful good antagonists to fight? How am I supposed to explain why evil, with nobody powerful enough to stall them, doesn't just take over the world and be done with it?

All the high-powered evil NPCs are getting in the way of my game, so I must demand, as a simple necessity, that Wizards of the Coast remove any character above the level my PC is at. It's frankly the only way that I can be the star, because the GM obviously can't figure it out himself. Of course, if I'm starting at level 1, I expect any character level 2 and above to be removed from the world.

Evil fights evil all the time (look at Blood War).

hamishspence
2010-11-10, 09:10 AM
Yup. And in 3.5 ed, the base assumption was that the party were Heroes, of Neutral or Good alignment. The PHB went so far as to say "Evil alignments should be reserved for monsters and villains"

Over time, this began to change, with books like BoVD, Savage Species, etc suggesting the party could be Evil, and still work together.

Still, reducing the amount of powerful Good or Neutral "Hero NPCs" for Faerun, does fit with that starting concept- that the PCs are the heroes of the story.

Alleran
2010-11-10, 10:38 AM
Evil fights evil all the time (look at Blood War).
Yes, but I still disagree with the concept. If the players are playing an evil group, then they don't want to have to fight other evil stuff. They want to take on the heroes, the good champions. Well, if they're my players, anyway.

I require that Wizards remove anything that keeps my PC from being the star. This includes but is not limited to higher level characters that can steal that spotlight from them. The GM is obviously incapable of doing it himself. They created (or modified, at least) an RPG that allows you to play as either hero or villain. If they presumed that people would only want good or neutral heroes, then they presumed wrong. Why should I as a player have to pay for their lack of comprehension?

(For the record, I usually do play good characters - my favourite alignment is Neutral Good. This is just trying to illustrate my problems with destroying the balance that existed, particularly in FR.)

Yora
2010-11-10, 10:39 AM
Okay, so they did assume wrong. What now?

Psyren
2010-11-10, 10:43 AM
Evil fights evil all the time (look at Blood War).

Exactly. They are backstabby enough to keep each other in check. By rights, The Harpers, Evermeet, The Chosen and all the other good factions should have curbstomped the evil ones, because they can't work together. You'd never see the Zhentarim teaming up with the Red Wizards of Thay; the Zhents would rather work with the Harpers first. It was really that bad.

If they ever did team up, it was either (a) in the face of a force majeure by Good, (b) to backstab them later, or (c) both.

Alleran
2010-11-10, 10:49 AM
Okay, so they did assume wrong. What now?
Their mistake needs fixing. In the case of removing obstacles to the PCs being the star, this means high-level evil characters must go. It's only logical. High-level good characters steal the spotlight from the good PCs (which they don't given a competent GM, IMO), and high-level evil characters do as well for the other side of the pond. So high-level evil characters have to go.

And that leaves you with no enemies to fight. Which is more or less my point, and why I don't buy or play the 4E FR setting. I disagree with the concept of it. I like the fact that there are powerful good forces to oppose powerful evil forces. And the PCs (or my PC, if I'm not GMing... which I usually am these days) are the tipping of the scale that can swing the advantage back and forth.

It's like playing a Star Wars RPG and complaining that you can't play the Rebels because Luke, Han and Leia steal the spotlight. They really don't.

hamishspence
2010-11-10, 10:52 AM
I require that Wizards remove anything that keeps my PC from being the star. This includes but is not limited to higher level characters that can steal that spotlight from them. The GM is obviously incapable of doing it himself. They created (or modified, at least) an RPG that allows you to play as either hero or villain. If they presumed that people would only want good or neutral heroes, then they presumed wrong. Why should I as a player have to pay for their lack of comprehension?

Trimming back on good NPC heroes, is easier to justify than trimming back on evil NPC villains.

Given that evil fights evil so much in the realms, many of those NPC villains, will make just as good antagonists for an evil party, as they would for a Good party.

And if you want to create high-level Good antagonists, there's plenty of rules in the DMG that allow you to create NPCs (which can be of any alignment).

Running an Evil campaign in 4E is certainly doable- it just requires a bit more work.

Like creating Channel Divinity feats for the evil gods.

Alleran
2010-11-10, 11:07 AM
And if you want to create high-level Good antagonists, there's plenty of rules in the DMG that allow you to create NPCs (which can be of any alignment).
Why should I create my own, when I can just use the already-existing good antagonists (who have plenty of backstory and add much more "oomph" to a battle than just created ones owing to their relevance to the setting) for evil PCs? Oh wait, that's right. Wizards killed them all off. :smalltongue:

Psyren
2010-11-10, 11:18 AM
Why should I create my own, when I can just use the already-existing good antagonists (who have plenty of backstory and add much more "oomph" to a battle than just created ones owing to their relevance to the setting) for evil PCs? Oh wait, that's right. Wizards killed them all off. :smalltongue:

Their backstory and "oomph" were the problem.

Alleran
2010-11-10, 11:21 AM
Their backstory and "oomph" were the problem.
Depends on perspective, I suppose. I never saw it as such, and nor did I ever have a problem with them. I can't be the only one.

hamishspence
2010-11-10, 11:22 AM
And some of the notable "good antagonists" haven't been killed off.

The Simbul is apparently still around.

And Drizzt is statted out in Dragon Magazine.

Alleran
2010-11-10, 11:31 AM
And some of the notable "good antagonists" haven't been killed off.

The Simbul is apparently still around.

And Drizzt is statted out in Dragon Magazine.
The Simbul is crazy now. As in, more than she used to be. Nor is she a suitable opponent like she once might have been - like Khelben once was (archmage advisor for a powerful city in the North, political manipulation...).

I do know that Elminster supposedly got a "potential enemy" status in Dragon online, but I don't get it, so I wouldn't know the details beyond the general stuff. He absorbs all the power from the Simbul, adds it to his own divine essence (Mystra's leftovers), and becomes a powerful, crazed enemy that the PCs have to defeat "for the good of all" in the scenario. Again, defaulting back to good. Plus, there's no reward, no accomplishment for defeating/killing him now. Nothing happens beyond the "I killed Elminster" line, and that does get boring.

The whole thing is kind of like in Oblivion. You're a chump. The real hero is Martin. As opposed to Morrowind, where other "heroes" and so on do exist, but you displace them or work alongside them. You're the center of the story, and you are the star. Divayth Fyr might be a millennia-old wizard lord and supremely powerful, but he has other things to do than fix everything.

Drizzt sells novels, pure and simple. They won't kill him off. He has Contractual Immortality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContractualImmortality) and is Armoured with Plot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.PlotArmor). RAS novels sell. A lot.

hamishspence
2010-11-10, 11:33 AM
If a DM has favorite Good characters from the novels- who haven't specifically been mentioned as having been destroyed in the spellplague- and wants their 4E stats so they can send the Good character against the Evil PCs as an antagonist- they can choose to stat the characters out themselves, if they haven't already been statted out.

Even in 3rd ed, there were many Good characters that weren't statted out- only given vague descriptions mentioning their class and level.

So it wasn't a new thing.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 11:35 AM
Like I said before, Drizz't is Wolverine :smallbiggrin:

Besides, he is the poster-boy of the new Drow. I quote verbatim from the FRPG:



Play a Drow if you want...

- To play a hero in search of redemption, or one who struggles to rise above the wickedness of his or her people.

I'm proud of myself too; I made it through that without gagging :smalltongue:

Yora
2010-11-10, 11:39 AM
I'm proud of myself too; I made it through that without gagging :smalltongue:
While reading the quote, images of guns and ropes flashed up in my mind. :smallbiggrin:

LibraryOgre
2010-11-10, 12:40 PM
Greyhawk, the default setting.


it's very Greyhawk-like, but some of the deities are removed or changed. As well as some of the history and geography. But some Greyhawk staples still remain- like the Tomb of Horrors.


Bit of a tangent, but the default 4e setting is not Greyhawk; the most Greyhawk thing about it is a few of the deities (Vecna and Kord are the only ones that come to mind). Greyhawk has an entirely separate history, with its own empires of the past, and was doing the "different human cultures and important differences between them" thing before even Birthright (with the Nazi-like Scarlett Brotherhood being the Suel-boosters, and the gypsy-like Rhenee). Saying the default 4e setting is Greyhawk is like saying the Realms is Earth, just because a few of the deities have the same names and there happen to be humans there.

FWIW, I've been running my C&C FR games in 1354... before the Time of Troubles, which may or may not happen. While I love the 3e campaign setting (fairly good art, some great ideas, and an awesome concentration of Realmslore, even if you're working before its official year), the only thing I really prefer from the post-ToT is Kelemvor v. Myrkul.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 12:46 PM
Bit of a tangent, but the default 4e setting is not Greyhawk; the most Greyhawk thing about it is a few of the deities (Vecna and Kord are the only ones that come to mind).

We actually covered that awhile back - hamish said the default setting is "Points of Light" or something like that.

hamishspence
2010-11-10, 12:51 PM
That's what it's called on TV Tropes, anyway:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PointsOfLight

so I figured that name would do to make it clear I was distinguishing it from Greyhawk- as well as mentioning POL-only things, like Arkhosia, Bael Turath, etc:


I was figuring the 3rd was "Points Of Light" the one which the books treat as default. Nerath, Arkhosia, Bael Turath, etc.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-10, 12:53 PM
Drizzt sells novels, pure and simple. They won't kill him off.

Drizzt has died before. He just got better (raise dead, etc).

LibraryOgre
2010-11-10, 12:54 PM
We actually covered that awhile back - hamish said the default setting is "Points of Light" or something like that.


That's what it's called on TV Tropes, anyway:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PointsOfLight

so I figured that name would do to make it clear I was distinguishing it from Greyhawk- as well as mentioning POL-only things, like Arkhosia, Bael Turath, etc.

Ah, sorry, misread Hamish's statements as being inclusive rather than exclusive.

And the version I've heard on RPG.net is POLand.

Myth
2010-11-10, 01:06 PM
Bit of a tangent, but the default 4e setting is not Greyhawk; the most Greyhawk thing about it is a few of the deities (Vecna and Kord are the only ones that come to mind). Greyhawk has an entirely separate history, with its own empires of the past, and was doing the "different human cultures and important differences between them" thing before even Birthright (with the Nazi-like Scarlett Brotherhood being the Suel-boosters, and the gypsy-like Rhenee). Saying the default 4e setting is Greyhawk is like saying the Realms is Earth, just because a few of the deities have the same names and there happen to be humans there.

FWIW, I've been running my C&C FR games in 1354... before the Time of Troubles, which may or may not happen. While I love the 3e campaign setting (fairly good art, some great ideas, and an awesome concentration of Realmslore, even if you're working before its official year), the only thing I really prefer from the post-ToT is Kelemvor v. Myrkul.

So you run 3.5 in that year? Or is it AD&D?

I myself would rather run a game in ancient Netheril if i have to read up on AD&D (only experience I have is Baldur's Gate. Yes prepare the stake everyone!)

Actually to fully voice my position: I'm a latecomer to actual DnD. Sure I player IWDII and the BG series on the PC but that's... not the same thing. I started really learning about 3.5, the splatbooks and builds and such a year ago. I feel cheated out of the 3.5 experience, because i missed the times when it was "the thing". Now I have a reasonable grasp on the rules and Lore although admittedly I only know the FR to any extent. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Ravenloft - all a blur.

Nowadays everyone is playing a hobo in 4E. I zealously guard my 3.5 because I like High Fantasy. And that requires High Magic. And that is inherently imbalanced versus non-magic users. And I'm OK with that.

IMO there is yet a system to represent truly Epic fantasy better then 3.5, despite it's game breaking flaws. If only there was an actual working, not buggy character generator for 3.5 with all the splatpbooks included.... That's one thing the 4E converts have and which i desire - an official, working, supported and updated character generator. The time it takes me to stat out a 20th level spellcaster - dear Mystra in heaven!

However I can't help but fear the coming of 5E in a year or two. Will 3.5 be only for "dinosaurs" like the current 1E or AD&D are (to my opinion)? Will i have to eventually give in to WOTC's mercantile and evil ways?:smalleek:

DeltaEmil
2010-11-10, 01:22 PM
However I can't help but fear the coming of 5E in a year or two.I rather think that's when they're going to start brainstorming ideas for 5th edition. So far, they haven't introduced any kind of different mechanism (even if minor enough) like they did for Star Wars Saga Edition, which would be the preview for 4th edition D&D. And they do need to know if these ideas are half-way accepted.

IMO there is yet a system to represent truly Epic fantasy better then 3.5, despite it's game breaking flaws.Huge inflated numbers and Mass Saves-or-Die are not epic. The stories and dimension of the scope make them epic. Wotc didn't realize that soon enough when they created that aberration of toilet paper they call Epic Level Handbook.

Will 3.5 be only for "dinosaurs" like the current 1E or AD&D are (to my opinion)? It already is for dinosaurs and cavemen. As will 4th edition be. And 5th edition, and 6th edition, D&D vista edition, 7th edition, till the end of time, when psychic superhumans create worlds to enact their reality-changing whims and let cavemen and dinosaurs fight against tentacle starspawns, and still complain about the rules...

Will i have to eventually give in to WOTC's mercantile and evil ways?Yes. Because if you don't, they'll break into your house and murder you. FACT!

Aside from that, you do hopefully know that WotC is a mercantile sub-enterprise who must make money as enforced by law, right?

Complaining about how evil and money-grubbing the corporates are is starting to become, I don't know, old?

amaranth69
2010-11-10, 02:18 PM
Most realms authors have their roots in earlier editions when the game was owned by TSR before WotC bought them out.

LibraryOgre
2010-11-10, 02:46 PM
So you run 3.5 in that year? Or is it AD&D?

No. It's Castles and Crusades (C&C), which draws a lot from 1e AD&D, but with a 3e style unified mechanic and increasing ACs. Most of your abilities are determined by class and race (all Rangers can climb natural surfaces and use herbalism to heal diseases; all dwarfs can find stonework traps; a dwarf ranger can do both), but the DM may use something like AD&D secondary skills to determine basic abilities.


I myself would rather run a game in ancient Netheril if i have to read up on AD&D (only experience I have is Baldur's Gate. Yes prepare the stake everyone!)

Late TSR actually released some stuff they called "Arcane Age" which included ancient Netheril, with some slightly different magic rules. You might poke around on ebay or in a used book store for it.


Now I have a reasonable grasp on the rules and Lore although admittedly I only know the FR to any extent. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Ravenloft - all a blur.

I'm actually somewhat that way on Greyhawk; while I somewhat know what is going on with Greyhawk, and can name a few major players, I'm not anywhere near fluent in the world (I could not, for example, name a sea god off the top of my head). On the other hand, I've been playing in the Realms since my junior year of high school, way back in 1994. I can draw a rough map of the Realms pretty easily, and know most of what's going on with most of the major players circa 1360. I know who I would need to pray to and where to look up, in my library, what their holy days are.

It's a matter of familiarity.... and I just realized that my 2nd edition PH can drive. I should get it a driver's license, and register it to vote in 2012.


However I can't help but fear the coming of 5E in a year or two. Will 3.5 be only for "dinosaurs" like the current 1E or AD&D are (to my opinion)? Will i have to eventually give in to WOTC's mercantile and evil ways?:smalleek:

What most people do, IME, is find a game they like and are comfortable with, and stick with that (or variants thereof). 3.x will have a bit of added longevity because of the OGL and Pathfinder (and Fantasy Craft, etc.), but, eventually, it too will fall by the wayside, only played by some die-hards who call themselves grognards (a title which will be denied by the grognards who play 1e and 2e), the people they drag into their "retro" games, and a few people who discover the joys of an old system.

For me, AD&D is pretty much it. I'll play other games, enthusiastically, but I like AD&D as presented in C&C... easy to house rule, fairly simple, but with complexity if you want it. It's my go-to for fantasy.

bloodtide
2010-11-10, 02:59 PM
Drizzt sells novels, pure and simple. They won't kill him off. . RAS novels sell. A lot.


Actually, he will die someday. At some point R.A./WotC will figure they can sell MORE books, if the do an 'Drizzt Death' novel. And they will. It's after all been done to ALL popular fictional characters at one point or another.

Sherlock Holmes, Superman, Captain America, Batman, Thor, Optimus Prime, and countless others have all died.

Yet...they are all, quite alive and well, again.........

Psyren
2010-11-10, 03:00 PM
Actually, he will die someday. At some point R.A./WotC will figure they can sell MORE books, if the do an 'Drizzt Death' novel. And they will. It's after all been done to ALL popular fictional characters at one point or another.

Sherlock Holmes, Superman, Captain America, Batman, Thor, Optimus Prime, and countless others have all died.

Yet...they are all, quite alive and well, again.........

"Kill him off" implies something more final.
And he has died "comic book death" before.

bloodtide
2010-11-10, 03:06 PM
"Kill him off" implies something more final.
And he has died "comic book death" before.

In the cases I mentioned, like Superman, it was not a 'normal comic book death'. It was headline news. It was all over the talk shows and news programs. The writer and president of DC go around and talk about the character. Forget about reality, did you hear Superman is dead!

They gave every indication that he would be Dead...forever. (Although we knew that would never be true).

Tyrant
2010-11-10, 03:29 PM
"Kill him off" implies something more final.
And he has died "comic book death" before.
When did he die?

Doug Lampert
2010-11-10, 03:36 PM
The basic answer to the question, why does WOTC screw things up so much?, is that they are using a shared world.

Each character, and that character's whole reality in the Realms, is unique to that character. The whole rest of the Realms does not exist for them. This is a common shared world problem.

No author will (mostly) ever write a story where their main character does nothing and has to be saved by another character. The hero of a story is a hero for a reason. Star Wars would not have worked if Luke had missed the Death Star, for example.

Take Drizzt. If you look through all the FR books, he is just one of dozens and dozens of near epic level characters. However, in just the reality of the books(aka novels) that Drizzt is in, he is the king of the hill. All the other characters and monsters don't exist. At no point in a Drizzt novel will Elminster(or any other character) swoop in and save the day. Even more so in the big drama events.

Take the 'Battle for Mithral Hall'. Alustrel shows up for a couple of minutes and casts a couple of fireballs. The epic, Chosen of Mystra, archmage supreme.....cast a couple of fireballs. Third level spells. She could have taken out at least half of the drow army...easily. But, of course, she forgot to read her character sheet.

This goes WAY back. If you go back to the old Artherian legends, Gawain is often number 1, and if not he's second ONLY to the hero of the particular story, and Kay is number 3, behind ONLY Gawain and <insert hero name>.

Note, this isn't only in combat, even if the hero of the story can beat him in a straight fight Gawain is still the most courteous and best looking and most loyal to Arthur and the one Arthur trusts most and gives Excaliber to too carry and use while Kay is his highest official and the one charged with managing the household.

Gawain and Kay are bad jokes by the time Le Mort D'Arthur was published in 1485, because ABSOLUTELY EVERY other named character in the mythos had a book about them, where they were better than both Gawain and Kay. Not only are they bad fighters (effectively everyone else on the round table can beat both of them, including two of Gawain's brothers!), but they are rude and boorish also.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 03:41 PM
When did he die?

I was going off Starbuck's post really; ask him.

Morph Bark
2010-11-10, 03:44 PM
A dumb move for a 40 Int character if i ever seen one. As a soul/outsider whatever happened to him now, does he still keep his character levels?

Considering he has 40 Int, he probably has reasons beyond your understanding. :smallwink:

Tyrant
2010-11-10, 03:45 PM
I was going off Starbuck's post really; ask him.
Fair enough.

Drizzt has died before. He just got better (raise dead, etc).
When did he die?

Starbuck_II
2010-11-10, 04:51 PM
Fair enough.

When did he die?

Against Artemis Entarie. It was a bent battle.
Artemis was buffed with Psychofeedback so he took no damage even though Drizzt could have killed him with all the attacks he did.
2E psionics wasn't the best at balance...

Anyway, once his damage meter was full, Artemis had to release ther damage so he touched Drizzt who got the blow of all the damage at once (while the book didn't say, I say failed System shock occurred).

Anyway, Artemis did it by accident and was denied his chance to prove he was better than Drizzt by killing him with outside help. So he left.
Soon after battle Drizzt was revived with magic (I forget how long after).

I don't remember the name of book.

Tyrant
2010-11-10, 07:15 PM
Against Artemis Entarie. It was a bent battle.
Artemis was buffed with Psychofeedback so he took no damage even though Drizzt could have killed him with all the attacks he did.
2E psionics wasn't the best at balance...

Anyway, once his damage meter was full, Artemis had to release ther damage so he touched Drizzt who got the blow of all the damage at once (while the book didn't say, I say failed System shock occurred).

Anyway, Artemis did it by accident and was denied his chance to prove he was better than Drizzt by killing him with outside help. So he left.
Soon after battle Drizzt was revived with magic (I forget how long after).

I don't remember the name of book.
I believe that's The Silent Blade, in which case he didn't die there. He was helped via healing spells, not being brought back to life. The character who healed him was a Drow in service to Lolth and Jarlaxle commented that the character would have to pray to Lolth for 100 years to make up for using one of their healing spells on Drizzt. I don't picture Lolth as the type to let just any of her followers bring people back to life.

If the point was that Drizzt should likely be dead by now, if it weren't for healing spells/potions, then I agree. However, so far as I can tell, he hasn't actually died before. I've read roughly 80 FR books by now and I can only recall a handful of actual resurrections. Near deaths, saved by healing spells or potions, immortals, liches, etc? Sure there's a whole lot of that in the setting, but most people who died stay dead. Maybe I'm just reading the wrong books, but actual resurrections appear to be fairly rare despite the fact that there are a number of people who should be able to bring people back to life. The books also seem to embrace the idea that just about anyone can be overwhelmed or outsmarted no matter what the rules may say.

Myth
2010-11-11, 05:34 AM
Castles and Crusades. I need it! How many books are there? Where does one find them?