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RndmNumGen
2010-11-08, 03:37 PM
I'm starting to get back into D&D, and found that one of my friends was hosting a basic newbie-friendly campaign. While II don't have a lot of experience with D&D, I do have played several games while most of the other players have never played before. In interest of not stealing the spotlight, I decided to play a low-tier class. When I rolled my stats, I got 17, 16, 15, 11, 11, 9; quite a few high rolls. I decided to take this opportunity to play Monk, something I have always wanted to do but been intimidated by the MAD Monks have.

However, I don't really know much about how monk plays. I was thinking about doing 17 STR, 16 WIS and 15 DEX, then going into the two-weapon fighting tree and getting as many accuracy enchancements as possible to make great use out of Furry of Blows. I'm not really sure how effective this would be in practice though, since that would get me two more attacks per round than a two-weapon fighting fighter or ranger, but with lower BAB. Anyone have any suggestions for improving the efficiency of this build?

Main restrictions on the game is PHB only(no DMG or MM) and no evil characters(I'm planning on being a LG follower of St. Cuthbert).

Myth
2010-11-08, 03:41 PM
{{scrubbed}}

The_JJ
2010-11-08, 03:44 PM
{{scrubbed}}

Premature methinks. He's asking for help, not debating its worth. That said, I play clerics so, I can't help you. :smalltongue:

dsmiles
2010-11-08, 03:47 PM
I'm not sure how that interaction would play out. I've never done a TWF monk build, but I would think that for the 'bonus feats', Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip would make better choices than Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows and Improved Disarm.

If it's any consolation, I'm currently playing a Monk/Stone Dragon Warblade/Warhulk (quintessential brawler, IMO).

Myth
2010-11-08, 03:47 PM
Considering OP said he is not sure how this would play out I figured it's a matter of time before it was pointed out that in fact, it won't play well at all. Monks plain suck.

OP if you have TOB the go to responce of GitP is "roll an Unarmed Swordsage" instead. Or a Monk 2/PsyWar x. Or anything else suggested in the topic which i linked and which is right above this one right now on the boards.

If all else fails, searching for Monk will yield about 639632003 threads.

dsmiles
2010-11-08, 03:51 PM
Considering OP said he is not sure how this would play out I figured it's a matter of time before it was pointed out that in fact, it won't play well at all. Monks plain suck.

OP if you have TOB the go to responce of GitP is "roll an Unarmed Swordsage" instead. Or a Monk 2/PsyWar x. Or anything else suggested in the topic which i linked and which is right above this one right now on the boards.

If all else fails, searching for Monk will yield about 639632003 threads.

However, he pointed out that the PHB1 is the only player resource allowed. So, no TOB.

The_JJ
2010-11-08, 03:52 PM
Considering OP said he is not sure how this would play out I figured it's a matter of time before it was pointed out that in fact, it won't play well at all. Monks plain suck.

OP if you have TOB the go to responce of GitP is "roll an Unarmed Swordsage" instead. Or a Monk 2/PsyWar x. Or anything else suggested in the topic which i linked and which is right above this one right now on the boards.

If all else fails, searching for Monk will yield about 639632003 threads.

*points at title* *points at quote: "I decided to play a lower tier class"* *points at at quote: "Main restrictions on the game is PHB only"*

*shrugs*

Grapple seems like a good idea to me, but don't quote me on that at all.

I mean, theoretically blahblahblah Freedom of Movement blah but for the game it sounds like you're going to play being able to pin down one enemy while your pals slap around the other sounds like a good mix of utility/non-spotlight stealing.

JaronK
2010-11-08, 04:06 PM
Stunning Fist and Improved Trip are obvious choices, so go with that. If you're doing TWF, you REALLY need to get your damage up, which is going to be hard with just the PHB (Improved Natural Attack is in Monster Manual). Consider playing a Half Orc just to get your damage up.

JaronK

olthar
2010-11-08, 04:07 PM
Considering OP said he is not sure how this would play out I figured it's a matter of time before it was pointed out that in fact, it won't play well at all. Monks plain suck.

OP if you have TOB the go to responce of GitP is "roll an Unarmed Swordsage" instead. Or a Monk 2/PsyWar x. Or anything else suggested in the topic which i linked and which is right above this one right now on the boards.

If all else fails, searching for Monk will yield about 639632003 threads.

preface: I don't want to threadjack.
I don't understand the general monk animosity that people in this community have. It is a viable class that some people would like to play for roleplaying purposes. As Dungeons and Dragons is a roleplaying game, it makes sense that people will ask questions about it. I've seen questions about other classes answered without half of the posts being exasperated statements about how dare people ask about monks.

The OP had a specific question: Given that I (the op) want to play a monk, and that I have the following restrictions (PHB Only) what is the best way to build this character?

If you don't want to answer that question, then don't respond. Consequently, I don't have an answer either. The only monk I've played was in a weird hybrid 1st/2nd ed game so it was completely different than a 3.5 monk. I'm just interested in seeing what the answer would be because my character in my main game will be dying soon (sometimes you know ahead of time) and I'm trying to think up something interesting to roleplay for my next one.

Myth
2010-11-08, 04:07 PM
Well the first rule of Grappling is be Large or even bigger if you can. The second rule of Grappling is have full BAB. The Monk fails at both.

A tripper build will fail even harder, especially since the Horizon Tripper is Core only.

Are you using PHB or SRD? Because the SRD has some delicious UA and XPH. You want melee, I'd say go for (well for Druid but I digress) a Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian. SRD only and infinitely better at hitting stuff then a lowly Monk. Cuz, you know, when you can't grapple as a real threat (not that grappling is actually a threat anyway), you are not even a decent tripper and your flurry of misses makes you suck at fighting you might as well abandon hope.

edit: Fine then if you insist on Monk, go play a Monk 20. All the feats are in the PHB, there is not hing we can actually do to help you optimize (at least I can't). As far as how it will play, I think i made my position clear.

Amphetryon
2010-11-08, 04:10 PM
Big problem #1: You're stuck with an 11 CON or less unless you take a race with a CON bonus, which in many cases eats into your DEX, or your Fast Movement, or both. You'll be fragile for a melee class, especially if you're grappling.

Big problem #2: With your medium BAB, TWF will statistically increase the odds that your Flurry of Blows will turn into the often-cited Flurry of Misses unless you have ways to buff yourself significantly before every combat or bother the party's casters to do it for you. Even if they do, they'll be buffing you instead of either someone with a full BAB or themselves, for what will still be a statistically smaller return on their spells' investment. There are folks on the boards who advocate using items and Use Magic Device yourself to address these problems; that's a difficult task at best with cross-class skills and no CHA bonus.

If you're only dipping Monk for a couple levels, the above problems are minor. The further in Monk you go, the more you're likely to see the above issues arise.

dsmiles
2010-11-08, 04:10 PM
I'm just interested in seeing what the answer would be because my character in my main game will be dying soon (sometimes you know ahead of time) and I'm trying to think up something interesting to roleplay for my next one.


If it's any consolation, I'm currently playing a Monk/Stone Dragon Warblade/Warhulk (quintessential brawler, IMO).

If you don't mind sucking up the penalties for being Large, I'm having fun with this one. (Monastic Training, FTW!)

Starbuck_II
2010-11-08, 04:15 PM
When I rolled my stats, I got 17, 16, 15, 11, 11, 9; quite a few high rolls. I decided to take this opportunity to play Monk, something I have always wanted to do but been intimidated by the MAD Monks have.

However, I don't really know much about how monk plays. I was thinking about doing 17 STR, 16 WIS and 15 DEX, then going into the two-weapon fighting tree and getting as many accuracy enchancements as possible to make great use out of Furry of Blows. I'm not really sure how effective this would be in practice though, since that would get me two more attacks per round than a two-weapon fighting fighter or ranger, but with lower BAB. Anyone have any suggestions for improving the efficiency of this build?

Main restrictions on the game is PHB only(no DMG or MM) and no evil characters(I'm planning on being a LG follower of St. Cuthbert).

TWFING Monks are good for number of attacks but remember both Flurry and TWFing have a -2 penalty (they stack) meaning you won't hit as often for each individual attack.

I say Monk till level 2-6 (minimum 2, max 9) than go rest of way Cleric.
Cleric buffs help you a lot. Divine power if possible will fix BAB issue.

Even one level of Cleric + a scroll will help.

Eldariel
2010-11-08, 04:22 PM
You could take two levels in Monk and then go Fighter (or Barbarian or Ranger or all of the above). That'd at least net you full BAB and some bonuses on hitting.

'cause even if you max out on Strength, you'll have serious issues hitting things. TWF is -2, Flurry has its own penalties, and you're Medium BAB. And you have no class-based To Hit bonuses like Barb (Rage) or Fighter (WF-lane, however anemic it is). Note that you're only virtually two attacks ahead of others; because of your lower BAB, you'll miss out on the last iterative for almost all levels comparatively and thus end up only 1 attack ahead (in exchange for doing all your full BAB attacks at ~-3 to -5 compared to full BAB).

RndmNumGen
2010-11-08, 04:22 PM
Yeah, I know monks are sub-optimal. As the game is composed of new players and most are playing low-tier classes as well(We have a Human Paladin, Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Rogue, and the single high-tier class, an Elf Cleric), the DM is likely to give us easier challenges since our power level is relatively low. That is why I decided to play Monk, I thought it would be a good chance to try out a class that is often ignored. That said, I would still like a good idea of where I'm going with this build. I've never played monk before, so I don't know how their abilities really synergize.


I'm not sure how that interaction would play out. I've never done a TWF monk build, but I would think that for the 'bonus feats', Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip would make better choices than Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows and Improved Disarm.

Hmm... Okay. I can see where Stunning Fist will come in useful, certainly. Yeah, I might focus on that.




If all else fails, searching for Monk will yield about 639632003 threads.

Most of which are why monks don't compare to clerics, swordsages and druids, and not focusing on the abilities of the monk class itself.


Consider playing a Half Orc just to get your damage up.

Half-Orc, huh? Hmm... I was planning on going human for the extra feat, but that might be worth considering.



Are you using PHB or SRD?

PHB.



I say Monk till level 2-6 (minimum 2, max 9) than go rest of way Cleric.
Cleric buffs help you a lot. Divine power if possible will fix BAB issue.

Even one level of Cleric + a scroll will help.

Alright. Multiclassing is allowed, so I could dip into other classes to help round out some of Monk's weaknesses. We do already have a cleric though, so I don't really want to focus on that.

EDIT:

You could take two levels in Monk and then go Fighter (or Barbarian or Ranger or all of the above). That'd at least net you full BAB and some bonuses on hitting.

Don't Monk and Barbarian conflict though due to requiring Lawful and Nonlawful alignments, respectively? I could certainly see taking levels in Fighter or Ranger though.

Hmm... If I take some ranger levels early on, I get the two-weapon fighting feats for free, right? That could be useful...

Emmerask
2010-11-08, 04:29 PM
Main restrictions on the game is PHB only(no DMG or MM) and no evil characters(I'm planning on being a LG follower of St. Cuthbert).

How about multiclassing anyway? ^^
Fact is that the later levels of monk donīt give you all that much
so:

Monk 9/cleric 7/ Barbarian 4

Saint Cuthbert cleric with strength domain and one other ^^ so you get enlarge person and 7th level for divine power.

It wonīt be super powerful but decent enough I think.




Don't Monk and Barbarian conflict though due to requiring Lawful and Nonlawful alignments, respectively?

If you take monk first an then become none lawful you retain all the monks abilities but you can never take more levels in monk :smallsmile:
So monk then barbarian is valid

The Shadowmind
2010-11-08, 04:31 PM
If you want the two-handed fighter route I say go Monk 2/Barbarian 2/ Ranger 16.
You have to start out LG, then go CG. You are still an unarmored guy that runs fast, and fights with two weapons(the ranger levels save spending the feats on the twf,) You'll have a BaB only 1 lower than full BaB. You can rage 1/day (sadly extra rage is non PHB). You would get an animal companion of a 8th level druid.

Eldariel
2010-11-08, 04:34 PM
Don't Monk and Barbarian conflict though due to requiring Lawful and Nonlawful alignments, respectively? I could certainly see taking levels in Fighter or Ranger though.

Hmm... If I take some ranger levels early on, I get the two-weapon fighting feats for free, right? That could be useful...

Yes, but you don't lose Monk-abilities for becoming non-Lawful anyways. You could just as easily be Neutral Good and play Monk 2/Barb ->. For many kinds of characters that could make perfect sense anyways; abandoning the rigid way of a Monk to focus on perfecting your fighting. And yes, Ranger = free TWF.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-08, 04:35 PM
Didn't someone make a viable PHB/DMG ONLY (for prestige classes) build without Monk, that simulated every single feature of a Monk, but was actually useful at combat? I remember assassin, fighter, maybe blackguard?

grarrrg
2010-11-08, 04:36 PM
I got 17, 16, 15, 11, 11, 9; quite a few high rolls. I decided to take this opportunity to play Monk

First, for race Humans are always good for the Bonus Feat and Skills.
Dwarf offers +Con with effectively no penalty and Darkvision. Has a 20ft. speed that is easily negated at Monk3
Elf can 'stat trade' and effectively turn your 17 16 15 11 (+3,3,2,0), into a 'slightly' better 17 16 13 13 (+3,3,1,1), or 17 15 14 13 (+3,2,2,1), allowing Str, Dex, Con, AND Wis to all have a bonus.

I'd vote down the "two-weapon+Flurry" idea. Too many to-hit penalties.

Coidzor
2010-11-08, 04:39 PM
However, he pointed out that the PHB1 is the only player resource allowed. So, no TOB.

Or Tashalatora. :/

Hmm. TWF+Power Attack with an enchanted Quarterstaff wielded with both hands while unarmed striking with any body part that's not a fist you feel like.

That's all I can think of for feats.

If you could get UA material that'd've been nice, but no go there for alternate feat sources...hmm.

Telonius
2010-11-08, 04:39 PM
Okay, PHB only. I'd recommend going Quarterstaff fighting. Focus on the Strength. Power Attack and Improved Initiative are priorities. Beg, plead, blackmail, or bribe your DM into letting you take Improved Natural Attack (found in the Monster Manual 1). Weapon Focus (unarmed). Rapid Reload for Shuriken if you feel like it. Spring Attack is a trap. I would strongly advise against the TWF tree. Improved Disarm can be situationally useful, if the DM isn't careful about the sorts of weapons your enemies have (i.e. he throws lots of sword and board against you). But as pointed out the deck is stacked against you unless you're pretty sure the enemy has a much lower strength and/or size.

Max out Tumble so you can be Flanking Buddy with the Rogue. Talk to the Rogue to figure out which skills he'll be focusing on, and shore up the scouting.

You'll want to pay close attention to your wealth and magic items. You'd think Monk is less wealth-dependent than other characters, but the opposite is true. Load up on utility and mundane stuff (grappling hook, tanglefoot bag, lots of rope) when you can. Remember that lots of minor magic items to add up to larger bonuses than one big item.

Telonius
2010-11-08, 04:47 PM
Didn't someone make a viable PHB/DMG ONLY (for prestige classes) build without Monk, that simulated every single feature of a Monk, but was actually useful at combat? I remember assassin, fighter, maybe blackguard?

::raises hand::

Though apparently the forum has eaten it. It was more of an illustrative argument than an actual build. Basically you take a Fighter and use feats to replicate most of the Monk's abilities. Argument being that if Fighter is practically as good at being a "monk" as the Monk class is, the Monk class probably wasn't very well designed.

Greenish
2010-11-08, 04:49 PM
Rapid Reload for Shuriken if you feel like it.Uh, what? Even if you meant Quick Draw, that wouldn't make drawing shuriken happen any quicker (since it's a free action to begin with).

Eldariel
2010-11-08, 04:52 PM
Honestly, I'd just make a Horizon Walker if I wanted to avoid good classes while staying in Core. Between Dimension Door, some nice static bonuses, Tremorsense and so on, it's definitely a somewhat competent character and can be quite Monky (given Monk has Dimension Door and perception abilities and such too). Hell, if you get decent Wisdom, you could fit actual Monk-levels in and go unarmored.

Telonius
2010-11-08, 04:52 PM
Uh, what? Even if you meant Quick Draw, that wouldn't make drawing shuriken happen any quicker (since it's a free action to begin with).

Huh, could've sworn it was the other way round... was that a 3.0 change? (Though it's also quite possible I'm losing my mind - that tends to happen in proximity to Monk threads).

Emmerask
2010-11-08, 04:56 PM
Honestly, I'd just make a Horizon Walker if I wanted to avoid good classes while staying in Core. Between Dimension Door, some nice static bonuses, Tremorsense and so on, it's definitely a somewhat competent character and can be quite Monky (given Monk has Dimension Door and perception abilities and such too). Hell, if you get decent Wisdom, you could fit actual Monk-levels in and go unarmored.

Its phb only not core only :smallwink:

Eldariel
2010-11-08, 04:57 PM
Its phb only not core only :smallwink:

Well, I guess that's that then; I'm seriously running low on excuses to suggest a non-caster.

Amphetryon
2010-11-08, 04:57 PM
Huh, could've sworn it was the other way round... was that a 3.0 change? (Though it's also quite possible I'm losing my mind - that tends to happen in proximity to Monk threads).

IIRC, they were classified as ammunition in 3.0. This had hilarious consequences.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-08, 05:01 PM
Okay, PHB only. I'd recommend going Quarterstaff fighting. Focus on the Strength. Power Attack and Improved Initiative are priorities. Beg, plead, blackmail, or bribe your DM into letting you take Improved Natural Attack (found in the Monster Manual 1). Weapon Focus (unarmed). Rapid Reload for Shuriken if you feel like it. Spring Attack is a trap. I would strongly advise against the TWF tree. Improved Disarm can be situationally useful, if the DM isn't careful about the sorts of weapons your enemies have (i.e. he throws lots of sword and board against you). But as pointed out the deck is stacked against you unless you're pretty sure the enemy has a much lower strength and/or size.

Max out Tumble so you can be Flanking Buddy with the Rogue. Talk to the Rogue to figure out which skills he'll be focusing on, and shore up the scouting.

You'll want to pay close attention to your wealth and magic items. You'd think Monk is less wealth-dependent than other characters, but the opposite is true. Load up on utility and mundane stuff (grappling hook, tanglefoot bag, lots of rope) when you can. Remember that lots of minor magic items to add up to larger bonuses than one big item.

Hmm... Improved Natural Attack would only work with unarmed strikes, yes? Would I want Weapon Focus in both Quaterstaff and Unarmed, then?

Oh, I should probably mention the DM is giving us double stat increases when we level(so we get +1 to two different stats instead of +1 in just 1 stat). That also helps a bit with the MAD.

JaronK
2010-11-08, 05:07 PM
INA is in the Monster Manual though,isn't it?

JaronK

RndmNumGen
2010-11-08, 05:19 PM
INA is in the Monster Manual though,isn't it?

JaronK

Yeah... I might be able to convince him to make an exception though.

EDIT: Nope, I just talked to him. For this first game he wants to stick with the PHB only. Guess I'm focusing on the quarterstaff, then.

amaranth69
2010-11-08, 05:27 PM
As a dm i am bot sure that i would let monks use twf with thier unarmed strike since it says these attacks come from hands, head and/or feet. then again, since monks suffer from isuckalreadyitis, i may allow it and even take away twf penalties since they are trained in combat with any extrimity. that might even make them shine a little. ps go with an improved trip build, trip rocks in 3rd. have fun no matter what you go with.

Keld Denar
2010-11-08, 06:24 PM
Oh hey, I just noticed you live in Federal Way. Me too! Small world, eh?

Brendan
2010-11-08, 07:08 PM
there is not hing we can actually do to help you optimize (at least I can't). As far as how it will play, I think i made my position clear.

You know, we could try to provide useful resources (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=slflvsu3muris9mnqgpio0j151&topic=1015.0) or perhaps helpful advice, but I guess that works too.
That said, just pick and choose from that handbook and look for pretty combos. Remember, being large size can be as simple as paying for a perma-enlarge person. just refresh after each dispell. Also, dwarfs get some nice bonuses and with the fast movement would work pretty well as a movement/lockdown based character. as long as you don't go over level eleven or so you'll have some neat class features to deal with. maybe check with your dm for a house rule or a change to some of the crappy class features like slow fall.
You won't ever be uber-powerful but if its a newbie friendly campaign you'll play just fine. have fun.

Signmaker
2010-11-08, 08:44 PM
Dexterity-based fighting seems like a trap with the stats you've been given. I'm also going to support the quarterstaff gravy-train, with the suggestion that one of your three 'big' stats being dumped in to constitution.

If multiclassing is indeed an option and there are no other members particularly interested in being the fighter, it might actually be a prudent choice to only stick around for about 2 monk levels before switching out with fighter. In essence you'd be trading up 1 BAB for a good set of initial saves, which isn't a necessarily bad move.

If you don't swap out of monk eventually, bear in mind that you'll be slowly suffering from the reduced BAB. And while you get bonus feats, until you can get the assurance from other players that you can get things like enlarge person or general strength boosts, I don't believe the Improved X feats will do a whole lot of good.

Depending on the start level, it might also not be a bad idea to dip fighter before taking monk levels, just to gauge the DM and your party. Worst case scenario is that you bail out of monk if your party just can't cope without a beatstick.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-08, 09:16 PM
Oh hey, I just noticed you live in Federal Way. Me too! Small world, eh?

I actually moved up to Redmond about 6 months ago, though I'm still pretty close to Seattle. I should probably change that though, huh?


Dexterity-based fighting seems like a trap with the stats you've been given. I'm also going to support the quarterstaff gravy-train, with the suggestion that one of your three 'big' stats being dumped in to constitution.

If multiclassing is indeed an option and there are no other members particularly interested in being the fighter, it might actually be a prudent choice to only stick around for about 2 monk levels before switching out with fighter. In essence you'd be trading up 1 BAB for a good set of initial saves, which isn't a necessarily bad move.


Hmm... Okay, yeah I'll probably dump the TWF then and go for a more beefy build. Start level is 1, but if I decide that monk isn't giving me what I need I can class out into either fighter or ranger, depending on what I want to do with it.

Lhurgyof
2010-11-08, 10:01 PM
Yeah, I know monks are sub-optimal. As the game is composed of new players and most are playing low-tier classes as well(We have a Human Paladin, Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Rogue, and the single high-tier class, an Elf Cleric), the DM is likely to give us easier challenges since our power level is relatively low. That is why I decided to play Monk, I thought it would be a good chance to try out a class that is often ignored. That said, I would still like a good idea of where I'm going with this build. I've never played monk before, so I don't know how their abilities really synergize.



Hmm... Okay. I can see where Stunning Fist will come in useful, certainly. Yeah, I might focus on that.




Most of which are why monks don't compare to clerics, swordsages and druids, and not focusing on the abilities of the monk class itself.



Half-Orc, huh? Hmm... I was planning on going human for the extra feat, but that might be worth considering.



PHB.



Alright. Multiclassing is allowed, so I could dip into other classes to help round out some of Monk's weaknesses. We do already have a cleric though, so I don't really want to focus on that.

EDIT:


Don't Monk and Barbarian conflict though due to requiring Lawful and Nonlawful alignments, respectively? I could certainly see taking levels in Fighter or Ranger though.

Hmm... If I take some ranger levels early on, I get the two-weapon fighting feats for free, right? That could be useful...

Perhaps a Dwarven Monk/Ranger with favored enemies that reflect his racial hatred for giants/goblins/orcs?
Or Half-orc Monk/Cleric?

Signmaker
2010-11-08, 10:07 PM
Also, something I've only recently considered: If you can guarantee high strength, net-fu is an interesting option. It will likely require the EWP (though a touch attack offsets the -4 nonproficiency penalty if you choose not to), but adding in a very strange form of battlefield manipulation with the monk's penchant for movement is something I'm finding fascinating at the moment. It would essentially allow you to demobilize the biggest physical-based threat whilst still being capable of attacking in subsequent rounds. This could be used in addition to a trip-based monk setup, and should theoretically only require the first round of combat, unless your attack roll botches horribly.

Coidzor
2010-11-08, 10:13 PM
there's generally very little reason why every PC shouldn't try net-fu out at least once.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-08, 11:22 PM
Also, something I've only recently considered: If you can guarantee high strength, net-fu is an interesting option. It will likely require the EWP (though a touch attack offsets the -4 nonproficiency penalty if you choose not to), but adding in a very strange form of battlefield manipulation with the monk's penchant for movement is something I'm finding fascinating at the moment. It would essentially allow you to demobilize the biggest physical-based threat whilst still being capable of attacking in subsequent rounds. This could be used in addition to a trip-based monk setup, and should theoretically only require the first round of combat, unless your attack roll botches horribly.

Hmm... That actually sounds really interesting.

Coidzor
2010-11-08, 11:30 PM
Lassos are also nice and would let one trip at range, but BOED material.

Signmaker
2010-11-08, 11:30 PM
Hmm... That actually sounds really interesting.

In addition, if the netted opponent needs more immobilization, you can A. Trip them or B. Tanglefoot. Keep in mind of course that you're swiftly losing monkish flavor, but I'm not sure if you're trying to dabble in the monk class or the wuxia type of combat.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-09, 12:45 AM
Hmm... looking in the SRD, it seems that I can't start out using nets(they cost 20 gp each, and I only have 12 gp starting gold). I'm thinking about starting out with the Power Attack and Improved Initiative feats, then with Stunning Fist for the monk bonus feat. Main attacks will be done with a quarterstaff.

I can take two levels of Monk then, and see how it's playing out. If I really seem to be suffering, then I can multiclass into either Fighter or Ranger for Weapon Specialization or Two-Weapon Fighting, respectively. Otherwise I might just stay Monk, and maybe dip into the nets if they seem like a worthwhile investment.

ericgrau
2010-11-09, 01:28 AM
The -2 to hit makes TWF inferior once you get around 5 attacks (and barely helpful at 3-4 attacks), because the number of actual hits you get goes down. I wouldn't combine it with stunning fist. Pick one or the other. Likewise power attack with a low AB is a really bad idea. You can still make many attacks work, however, by making hits easier to land such as going for touch attacks via grapple or trip attempts. Remember each takes an attack not a standard action. Or even mix grapples/trips with something else, using your lowest AB attacks for trips. If so a magic weapon will do more damage than unarmed strikes in core.

For that matter there usually is little reason to ever not grapple or trip, because a successful attempt lets you deal damage too. Your grapple damage is equal to your unarmed strike damage so it's all gravy even after the grapple starts. Unlike other classes that brag at how much better they can pull themselves into a grapple where they suck at damage (you're very effective at gimping yourself at the same time as your foe, yay?). If you have allies with sneak attack or power attack on top of that, even better. Grappling denies dex to AC. Stocking up on potions of enlarge potion may be helpful here, but don't waste a round on it against foes that are already easy to grapple/trip.

For skills tumble and/or jump let you select the right foe for doing all of the above (back-line foes are often best) and still full attack the next round. Your AC is lousy, so when possible it's best to engage things that can be tripped/grappled or that don't carry a melee weapon. For gear consider belt of strength, boots of speed (haste), ring of protection (touch AC) and dusty rose prism ioun stone (touch AC). Other ability scores and armor/natural armor AC are ok too. A kama or two helps with tripping.

EDIT: The round 1 net idea sounds interesting. At the very least you could skip proficiency and carry a net just in case you happen to find a good melee target. Especially since monk AC hates fair melee.

NineThePuma
2010-11-09, 01:46 AM
I actually moved up to Redmond about 6 months ago, though I'm still pretty close to Seattle. I should probably change that though, huh?

I smell a GiantITP [Seattle] Meet Up.

... Cause I desperately need something to do in the evenings and DnD sounds like a good idea.

DMfromTheAbyss
2010-11-09, 01:49 AM
From my experience in a non-optimized game a monk with a quarter staff, two weapon fighting and using flurry of blows for the first two or three levels actually works out decently. By all means keep an eye out for any way to get bonuses to hit though:smallwink:.

Just watch out for well armored enemies and be prepared to go all two handed base ball style as needed.

Past the first few levels though I'd totally agree that multiclassing into
Fighter (feats)
Ranger(more fun TWF stuff)
Paladin(potential massive bonus to saves)
Barbarian(RAGE)

will net you better results than staying a monk.

Also from my experience avoid stunning fist like the plauge. Too many things are immune, make the save and ignore it or when it does work it's usually on something you should easily be able to kill anyway so it's pretty pointless.
Improved grapple instead will at least somewhat keep you competitive on grappling for the first couple of levels, after which the loss of BAB will more than cancel it out..:smallfrown: but by then you should be multiclassing and moving into a prestige class if possible.

ericgrau
2010-11-09, 01:56 AM
The thing with stunning fist and grapple are that you deal damage at the same time (even upon initiating the grapple), so anything on top of that is gravy anyway. And the extra flurry attack(s) make up for any lost AB. Remember initiating a grapple is an attack not a standard action.

If you want to be a TWF staff monk I'd combine it with improved grapple to burn half of your lower AB attacks on touch attacks. Grab some oil of shillelagh for tons of extra damage.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-09, 03:05 AM
For that matter there usually is little reason to ever not grapple or trip, because a successful attempt lets you deal damage too. Your grapple damage is equal to your unarmed strike damage so it's all gravy even after the grapple starts.

Hmm... I missed that part about being able to use unarmed attacks while grappling. Does that mean you can use a full attack and/or fury of blows while in a grapple? I don't see anything about doing damage from tripping, though.

With branching into grapple though, that means I would need to devote more feats to that over using a quarterstaff. That means, in addition to the grapple feats, taking both weapon focus(quaterstaff) and weapon focus(unarmed)... seems very feat-intensive. Still, it might be worth it...

Keld Denar
2010-11-09, 03:12 AM
Unfortuantely, you can't make any extra attacks while grappling. You have a number of grapple actions restricted by your BAB, and only your BAB, regardless of how many attacks you could otherwise make.

ericgrau
2010-11-09, 03:16 AM
You can flurry in a grapple by making weapon/unarmed-strike attacks at a -4 penalty, but I wouldn't eat that penalty. And you can't TWF at all. What I meant is that grapple damage (using grapple checks not attack rolls) is equal to unarmed strike damage, so monks deal much more grapple damage than other classes. Yes you can full attack grapple damage, but AFAIK you can't flurry it b/c they aren't monk weapon / fist / etc. attacks. Even though they do the same damage as unarmed strikes.

For example a single full attack could be: initiate grapple (which also deals unarmed strike damage), deal grapple damage (grapple check, equals unarmed strike damage), trip foe (at a -4 to your touch attack due to grappling, oh well), bonus attack from improved trip (also at a -4). The grapple rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) have other attacks that you might mix in too.

dnixon
2010-11-09, 03:50 AM
My advice is to take 1 level of monk and then multiclass to cleric or druid for the rest (depending on the flavor wished).

HunterOfJello
2010-11-09, 03:57 AM
I've been looking at multiclass options you could do for a PHB ONLY monk, and the conclusion that I came to was monk/ranger/fighter/rogue minus the monk part.

The one time I let a friend play a normal monk was a total disaster. It was sad, painful and something I would never consider again.
~

Here's my take on a pure PHB monk anyway:

If you can get your DM to allow you to take Improved Grapple and Stunning Fist as your first 2 monk bonus feats then you'll be off to a good start. For race I would go dwarf or half-orc. Dwarves are often ignored, but are great to roleplay as and very well built. They have plenty of useful class features and their +2 Con will help with your lack of hp. They do have the 20ft movement speed, but your speed will be boosted soon enough.

I would suggest the Combat Expertise feat line, but you probably won't have the Int 13 to qualify for it.

Improved Initiative and Improved Sunder are about the only two decent feats you'll be able to qualify for since you don't use a weapon or armor. Power Attack could be decent as a pre-requisite, but it's worthless for you to us in a fight since your attack is going to be pitifully low anyway. Cleave could be a decent feat, but you're never going to do enough damage to kill anything compared to the real melee character standing next to you who has +4 attack compared to you and does much more damage per hit than you probably ever will.

The only other suggestions I can give are a long list of multiclassing that turn the character into a not-monk anyway.

~

You should probably just do your party a favor and play a TWF Ranger/Rogue or Fighter/Rogue. You'll still be able to tumble around all over the place and attack with two weapons for plenty of damage. All of your skills will be better off, your AC will be better, you can attack with real ranged weapons and actually be of use to your group.

Myth
2010-11-09, 05:12 AM
I'd have to advise against MCing into Paladin. They won't grant a "massive bonus to saves" because a monk's only dump stat is Cha. By now OP has made up his mind, I'm now looking forward to updates on how the game is going for him. Any instances of the Monk being useful (and by that I mean using his class features to great advantage not doing something any class can do) would be particularly interesting for me.

grarrrg
2010-11-09, 07:14 AM
basic newbie-friendly campaign....I do have played several games while most of the other players have never played before.


multiclass...multiclass...multiclass

Why didn't I think of this before!
You're playing with all newbies (minus DM, obviously).
You need to show them the 'true' power of the Monk. None of this multiclassing nonsense.
You should go pure Monk, and at every opportunity complain, lament, and lambast how ineffective you really are, emphasize your (otherwise) awesome stat rolls, and how they fail to help. Point out how, despite your awesome rolls, how your to-hit, HP, AC, etc... is sorely lacking for a melee class.

Show them the pure unbridled fury that is a Monk charging in with their +ft. Movement bonus and then launching an unstoppable Flurry a Blows.
Oh, wait. They can't quite do that.

Greenish
2010-11-09, 08:01 AM
There is a monk handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704) on these very forums. Granted, magic items are in DMG.

Lhurgyof
2010-11-09, 08:07 AM
You can flurry in a grapple by making weapon/unarmed-strike attacks at a -4 penalty, but I wouldn't eat that penalty. And you can't TWF at all. What I meant is that grapple damage (using grapple checks not attack rolls) is equal to unarmed strike damage, so monks deal much more grapple damage than other classes. Yes you can full attack grapple damage, but AFAIK you can't flurry it b/c they aren't monk weapon / fist / etc. attacks. Even though they do the same damage as unarmed strikes.

For example a single full attack could be: initiate grapple (which also deals unarmed strike damage), deal grapple damage (grapple check, equals unarmed strike damage), trip foe (at a -4 to your touch attack due to grappling, oh well), bonus attack from improved trip (also at a -4). The grapple rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) have other attacks that you might mix in too.

Since you can make a grapple check to deal unarmed damage in place of an attack, you can flurry grapple attempts to deal unarmed damage, no need to take that -4.


There is a monk handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704) on these very forums. Granted, magic items are in DMG.

Wow, everyone in that thread is banned, pretty much. :smalleek:


And please guys, let's stop with the monk hate. Monk is fine in a fun-loving game.

And heck, I've played a monk to 20, it's pretty fun when you get the psuedo-magic abilities.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-09, 11:43 AM
I'd have to advise against MCing into Paladin. They won't grant a "massive bonus to saves" because a monk's only dump stat is Cha. By now OP has made up his mind, I'm now looking forward to updates on how the game is going for him. Any instances of the Monk being useful (and by that I mean using his class features to great advantage not doing something any class can do) would be particularly interesting for me.

Thanks. I'm thinking about switching from using a quarterstaff to being an unarmed/grapple specialist, which really does seem to be one of monk's best abilities. I might move into using a quarterstaff/twf build later, but since the monk's advantage is they can get improved grapple and improved trip without the DEX and INT ability prerequisites, that gives me an overall better CON.


There is a monk handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704) on these very forums. Granted, magic items are in DMG.

Wow... that looks exceptionally useful. I'll have to talk with my DM about that to make sure some of the stuff in there doesn't break his personal rules(be believes in RAI > RAW).

Tavar
2010-11-09, 12:16 PM
I wouldn't. It's...well, it's extremely debatable how useful any of the stuff in there actually is. Never mind the stuff that's just plain wrong.

ericgrau
2010-11-09, 12:38 PM
In all fairness that's never stopped, well 95% of other guides and high power builds out there. I think people only say that about the monk guide because they hate monks. I'm not advocating the guide though; personally I hate all the "technically legal" cheesy power-gaming tricks equally.

I assumed you couldn't flurry grapple checks because they're not unarmed strikes (they merely deal equal damage) nor monk weapons, but that's open for debate. If your DM allows it go for it.

Emmerask
2010-11-09, 12:50 PM
Well with PHB only the amount of tricks you can use from guides is very much limited anyway^^

I still say monk 4-8/ cleric 8-12/ barbarian 4 is a decent mix
with enlarge person, rage and divine power you get a pretty good grapple modifier ~40 should be possible, which is enough to grapple most large sized creature though huge ones may present a problem.

Your unarmed damage wonīt be glorious though but with enough strength + divine favor and other boni you will do enough damage to contribute, with divine power you donīt have to worry about not hitting.
Also you can memorize a lot of utility spells for the group.

PHB only is pretty hard for all melee types so a bit of augmenting with a caster class canīt be wrong ^^

RndmNumGen
2010-11-09, 12:59 PM
I wouldn't. It's...well, it's extremely debatable how useful any of the stuff in there actually is. Never mind the stuff that's just plain wrong.

Oh. I see.

Well thanks for the warning, at least.

I didn't really want to go into UMD anyway, but I do like the idea of focusing on grappling/trips/nets and other denial abilities of the monk. Anyone have advice on these?

Coidzor
2010-11-09, 01:18 PM
I didn't really want to go into UMD anyway, but I do like the idea of focusing on grappling/trips/nets and other denial abilities of the monk. Anyone have advice on these?

Invest ranks in balance and between a hypothetical rogue and yourself and marbles, you can take care of most land-based, non-huge enemies by denying them usable terrain where they're not flat-footed, prone, or having to make balance checks if they have ranks. Of course, that depends upon getting the source for marbles allowed, I suppose. Grease would be functionally the same but dependent upon spellcaster support.

Beating on a prone or flat-footed enemy so that eh can't get out of the zone of terrain that's disabling him (but that doesn't really inconvenience you) can be fun.

Doc Roc
2010-11-09, 01:20 PM
I would, naturally, debate that. I think that if you are PHB-only, I must press the fact that monk will fall behind after about level 4, and start to suffer at 8. If you aren't playing past eight, you should be mostly okay.

Eldariel
2010-11-09, 01:31 PM
Oh. I see.

Well thanks for the warning, at least.

I didn't really want to go into UMD anyway, but I do like the idea of focusing on grappling/trips/nets and other denial abilities of the monk. Anyone have advice on these?

The huge thing about all this is that the class that excels in this isn't really Monk. Grapple is BAB-dependent. Nets want EWP and Strength-checks. Trips are straight Strength-checks. Monk does not gain full BAB, any Strength-bonuses or open bonus feats. The Improved X-feats can be taken by anybody. As you can see, the best non-caster class by far for all those is Barbarian; it gains Strength-bonuses from Rage, it has full BAB, it has high HD + DR (grappling makes you very vulnerable to being attacked), and yeah. Fighter-levels would net you some bonus feats for the EWP: Net.

If anything, taking a two-level Monk dip for bonus feats and then heading into another class would make you the best in these. Monk would also gain you the Unarmed Strike which can certainly be useful with all these combat options and with a generous stat array, you could even go Stunning Fist in lieu of all that (since you gain uses outside Monk-levels too).


Now, mind, of course spells eclipse martial types' ability in this regard; Polymorph is an amazing spell for tripping/grappling/all such combat styles, and Wildshape works great too. And size increases from Enlarge Person/Righteous Might/company also shine. But I've understood you don't want spells, so I'll leave that mention at that. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

ericgrau
2010-11-09, 01:43 PM
Not much beyond what I said already. A net might be a good opener whenever you're limited to a single attack. Get within 10 feet, net, and next turn you can 5 foot step and full attack. Even though everyone assumes touch attacks are easy, hitting even 10 AC with a low dex and penalties might be hard at low levels. You might not want to use the net much until you're high enough level. Blowing a precious low level feat to erase the -4 might not be a good idea either. I mean even though the foe can't move away from you if you hold the rope he can still move towards you. The net may only be useful under very narrow circumstances.

If you have the speed and tumbling ability I'd get the opposite side of a foe to help your ally flank. Then when you net and trip him, you and your ally will effectively be at a +8 to hit allowing you to wtfpwn him. Pinning an opponent will likewise give foes -9 AC (including the -5 from an effective dex of 0) and deny dex, but the mid BAB monk might be better off dealing his high grapple damage instead. With such a heavily control focused build make sure (a) the DM doesn't like sending big beasts that you can't trip / grapple and (b) that the party has rogue(s) and/or full BAB power attacking melee to exploit the massive bonus to hit plus sneak attack trigger. Disabling foes is nice but it's much nicer when allies can curb-stomp them too. EDIT: Oooh, looks like all 3 allies might fit. This could work well. Be humble enough to pump their damage through the roof.

riddles
2010-11-09, 01:47 PM
There's some good advice here that I think I'll pass on to one of my newbies wanting to play a monk.

However, I wanted to point something out. Your teammates are newbies. Out of 5 characters, not one of you has picked an arcane class. This could cause problems if/when your dm puts higher level threats against you (not every villain can be a sword and board fighter). You have 2 melee characters in the paladin and the fighter and even they will begin to outshine you in the damage department quickly, leading to you having to pull a lot of tricks out of the bag.

Given your own limited experience, may I suggest a sorceror? Using the god wizard build as a base, select battlefield control and buffing spells to make life considerably easier for your hitty types. Being a sorceror means you'll have the right tool for the job and less paperwork.

I know from experience that my newbie rogue player really struggled to contribute meaningfully to combat without becoming a blood smear on a dungeon wall and greatly appreciated me summoning flanking buddies, making enemies fall down, stand still etc.

Requires a certain mindset, but very rewarding

Eldariel
2010-11-09, 01:56 PM
Arguably Far Shot could increase Net range to 20' which would be notably more useful. 10' has the issue of basically being in the melee range of most things (anything with reach weapon, anything large, and provoking AoOs from anything large with reach weapon); that's kind of painful.

That said, it's still a fine debuff, especially if you don't have a Druid handy or so. But if you want to use it early, you DO want that EWP specifically because you need to hit that Touch AC and -4 is gonna be a killer early on.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-09, 04:43 PM
I would, naturally, debate that. I think that if you are PHB-only, I must press the fact that monk will fall behind after about level 4, and start to suffer at 8. If you aren't playing past eight, you should be mostly okay.

I'm not sure how long the campaign is running, but I do know we're starting at level 1. If I notice I start to lag behind though, I can always multiclass into something else.

JaronK
2010-11-09, 04:51 PM
I just want to point out the usefulness of permanent spells. Enlarge Person will really help you out, and I think Greater Magic Weapon can be made permanent too (might be wrong on that). Either way, check out the list... you can't use them yet, but maybe you can get to a big enough town to have someone cast those on you.

Eventually, getting someone to have you turned into a really powerful attack form via Polymorph Any Object would help a great deal, assuming at that point there's monsters the DM has thrown at you in the campaign that are good.

JaronK

Telonius
2010-11-09, 04:59 PM
I'm not sure how long the campaign is running, but I do know we're starting at level 1. If I notice I start to lag behind though, I can always multiclass into something else.

It really does depend on the group. A player who builds a Monk extremely well, and plays him intelligently, will do better than a player with no head for tactics who chooses stupid spells for his Wizard. ("How well it's built on average" is a totally different story, as is "optimized to the extent of theoretical possibility.")

RndmNumGen
2010-11-09, 05:09 PM
Useful maybe, but being permanently large seems rather... odd. It might help in combat, but being 20 feet high when I'm walking around a city seems like it wouldn't be too helpful. As I said, the campaign is low power, low optimization, so while it's nice to find useful abilities I don't need to pounce on every possible advantage I can get.

Coidzor
2010-11-09, 05:20 PM
Useful maybe, but being permanently large seems rather... odd. It might help in combat, but being 20 feet high when I'm walking around a city seems like it wouldn't be too helpful. As I said, the campaign is low power, low optimization, so while it's nice to find useful abilities I don't need to pounce on every possible advantage I can get.

You'd only break 12 feet if you were 6' to start with (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargeperson.htm). Just be something like 5'0" and then you'll be 10 feet tall and only have to stoop for a fair few ceilings rather than all of them.


This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.

So a 160 pound, 5'0 human monk would become a 1280 pound, 10' human monk.

Now, the gear would also be sized up as long as it was on yer person when the spell came into effect.

So Weapons would weigh twice as much as those of a medium sized creature. Armor(not that you'd be wearing it) is similarly doubled in weight when going from medium to large.

No word on gear (like backpacks and such), as it only says that small sized creatures' gear weighs 1/4 that of medium sized creatures.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-09, 05:25 PM
You'd only break 12 feet if you were 6' to start with (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargeperson.htm). Just be something like 5'0" and then you'll be 10 feet tall and only have to stoop for a fair few ceilings rather than all of them.



So a 160 pound, 5'0 human monk would become a 1280 pound, 10' human monk.

Now, the gear would also be sized up as long as it was on yer person when the spell came into effect.

So Weapons would weigh twice as much as those of a medium sized creature. Armor(not that you'd be wearing it) is similarly doubled in weight when going from medium to large.

No word on gear (like backpacks and such), as it only says that small sized creatures' gear weighs 1/4 that of medium sized creatures.

And a 10 foot, 1280 pound man walking around doesn't seem unusual?

RebelRogue
2010-11-09, 05:31 PM
I had a player do that once: playing a permanently enlarged human monk. In that campaign they traveled to a far-off colony of their home country. Naturally, people noticed him. Ok, that's one thing, but he and most of the other players then proceeded to engage in some criminal activity: directly attacking a ship in the harbor while making no effort to disguise himself or be stealthy. That didn't end well...

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-09, 06:18 PM
Ah! Found the build. I believe this needs PHB and DMG. I *think* Multiattack is in the Monster Manual. Anyway, if that's the case, here's a build that using PHB/DMG/MM, lets you get simulate basically every single class feature the monk has, but you are actually kinda competent at, you know, melee combat.

Kudos to Prime32 for coming up with it. I'm just gonna quote him:

"Monk without monk
Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Assassin 10/Blackguard 2/Dragon disciple 2
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack, Stunning Fist
Items: +1 adamantine gauntlet of speed, Monk's belt, Periapt of health, Ring of evasion, Ring of feather falling (optional)

Rogue and assassin have UMD as class skills. Use dragon disciple to get two extra 4th-level assassin spell slots, and put dimension door in one of them. Death Attack emulates Quivering Palm. Your DD natural weapons, gauntlet and +16 BAB emulate flurry. The blackguard's Dark Blessing improves your saving throws, and CLW 1/day makes up for Wholeness of Body. Still rather MAD, unfortunately (needs 14 Int for assassin spells, plus Wis 11 and good Cha for blackguard)."

Greenish
2010-11-09, 06:30 PM
And a 10 foot, 1280 pound man walking around doesn't seem unusual?…In D&D? :smallconfused:

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-09, 06:35 PM
And a 10 foot, 1280 pound man walking around doesn't seem unusual?

Not really, no. Enlarge Person is a common level 1 spell on a ton of lists??

JaronK
2010-11-09, 06:39 PM
Seriously, in a world with Ogres, magical size boosts (Enlarge Person and Expansion are both level 1 abilities), various sorts of large half breeds, and all that, I imagine a 10 foot guy walking around would just be one of those "huh, haven't seen one of those this month" sort of things.

JaronK

ArcanistSupreme
2010-11-09, 06:40 PM
Ah! Found the build. I believe this needs PHB and DMG. I *think* Multiattack is in the Monster Manual. Anyway, if that's the case, here's a build that using PHB/DMG/MM, lets you get simulate basically every single class feature the monk has, but you are actually kinda competent at, you know, melee combat.

Kudos to Prime32 for coming up with it. I'm just gonna quote him:

"Monk without monk
Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Assassin 10/Blackguard 2/Dragon disciple 2
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack, Stunning Fist
Items: +1 adamantine gauntlet of speed, Monk's belt, Periapt of health, Ring of evasion, Ring of feather falling (optional)

Rogue and assassin have UMD as class skills. Use dragon disciple to get two extra 4th-level assassin spell slots, and put dimension door in one of them. Death Attack emulates Quivering Palm. Your DD natural weapons, gauntlet and +16 BAB emulate flurry. The blackguard's Dark Blessing improves your saving throws, and CLW 1/day makes up for Wholeness of Body. Still rather MAD, unfortunately (needs 14 Int for assassin spells, plus Wis 11 and good Cha for blackguard)."

But it doesn't have the speed bonus or the tongues ability or all of the other awesomely awesome abilities of the monk (how could anyone live without immunity to mundane diseases?!). Plus, you have to be evil to play that build, so it's balanced.[/sarcasm] :smalltongue:

RndmNumGen
2010-11-09, 07:50 PM
Ah! Found the build. I believe this needs PHB and DMG. I *think* Multiattack is in the Monster Manual. Anyway, if that's the case, here's a build that using PHB/DMG/MM, lets you get simulate basically every single class feature the monk has, but you are actually kinda competent at, you know, melee combat.

Kudos to Prime32 for coming up with it. I'm just gonna quote him:

"Monk without monk
Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Assassin 10/Blackguard 2/Dragon disciple 2
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack, Stunning Fist
Items: +1 adamantine gauntlet of speed, Monk's belt, Periapt of health, Ring of evasion, Ring of feather falling (optional)

Rogue and assassin have UMD as class skills. Use dragon disciple to get two extra 4th-level assassin spell slots, and put dimension door in one of them. Death Attack emulates Quivering Palm. Your DD natural weapons, gauntlet and +16 BAB emulate flurry. The blackguard's Dark Blessing improves your saving throws, and CLW 1/day makes up for Wholeness of Body. Still rather MAD, unfortunately (needs 14 Int for assassin spells, plus Wis 11 and good Cha for blackguard)."

Okay.

As I said, I'm playing monk because I want to play monk, not because I'm after some obscure monk class ability. What I'm after is advice on how to play monk to it's strengths, which I didn't know much about when I started this thread. I do know a good bit more about them now, such as grappling synergizing with the monk's unarmed strikes, while TWF with a quarterstaff only compounds accuracy penalties and isn't really worth it. In that respect, the thread has been very useful. What hasn't been useful is every other post detailing why another(usually non-PHB, though occasionally cleric/druid) is better than a monk. I get that monks are not that powerful, and I don't really care. I would just like to learn more about how to take what monk does have and use it effectively.

Rant aside...


…In D&D? :smallconfused:

Point taken. Enlarge Person it is then.

Now if I can just find some way of getting Magic Fang...

JaronK
2010-11-09, 07:55 PM
Will your DM ever be giving you DMG magic items? Because you're going to be in a LOT of trouble without them. Despite advertisements to the contrary, Monks are very magic item dependent.

Without that, you'll need help from full casters. Remember, the PHB does have rules for buying spells. You'd have to go with that I suppose.

JaronK

RndmNumGen
2010-11-09, 08:51 PM
Will your DM ever be giving you DMG magic items? Because you're going to be in a LOT of trouble without them. Despite advertisements to the contrary, Monks are very magic item dependent.

Without that, you'll need help from full casters. Remember, the PHB does have rules for buying spells. You'd have to go with that I suppose.

JaronK

Hmm... I'm not entirely sure. I know he doesn't want us using it to create our characters, but I think he would need stuff from the DMG/MM to actually run the campaign. I dunno, I'll have to ask him.

Yrcrazypa
2010-11-09, 09:43 PM
I want to find the groups where monks are absolutely useless in, and wizards end every encounter in the first round, whether it's through complete battlefield control, or killing everything in that round. Until I see that as being the norm, instead of the exception, I'll continue to say that monks aren't absolutely useless, because not everyone has complete system mastery.

ericgrau
2010-11-09, 09:45 PM
Ah! Found the build. I believe this needs PHB and DMG. I *think* Multiattack is in the Monster Manual. Anyway, if that's the case, here's a build that using PHB/DMG/MM, lets you get simulate basically every single class feature the monk has, but you are actually kinda competent at, you know, melee combat.

Kudos to Prime32 for coming up with it. I'm just gonna quote him:

"Monk without monk
Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Assassin 10/Blackguard 2/Dragon disciple 2
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack, Stunning Fist
Items: +1 adamantine gauntlet of speed, Monk's belt, Periapt of health, Ring of evasion, Ring of feather falling (optional)

Rogue and assassin have UMD as class skills. Use dragon disciple to get two extra 4th-level assassin spell slots, and put dimension door in one of them. Death Attack emulates Quivering Palm. Your DD natural weapons, gauntlet and +16 BAB emulate flurry. The blackguard's Dark Blessing improves your saving throws, and CLW 1/day makes up for Wholeness of Body. Still rather MAD, unfortunately (needs 14 Int for assassin spells, plus Wis 11 and good Cha for blackguard)."
Eh your "unarmed" natural attack damage can't be used with a grapple nor stunning fist, a monk (or this build or any class) could pick up a weapon and do more damage otherwise (defeating the entire build with a single magic item), it adds int to the MAD, burns your precious ring slots, I dunno why you're bothering with power attack on mid BAB nor sunder at all, etc., etc. You'd do more with a warrior 20 and TWF magic gauntlets. Why go through all this trouble just to be worse?

The more common flipside could have been a build that grappled better but without doing any grapple damage, thus when he starts the grapple he gimps himself as much as he gimps his foe. But these are the results of thought exercises that focus on one thing to make a point and kinda-sorta address the rest.

Lhurgyof
2010-11-09, 09:49 PM
In all fairness that's never stopped, well 95% of other guides and high power builds out there. I think people only say that about the monk guide because they hate monks. I'm not advocating the guide though; personally I hate all the "technically legal" cheesy power-gaming tricks equally.

I assumed you couldn't flurry grapple checks because they're not unarmed strikes (they merely deal equal damage) nor monk weapons, but that's open for debate. If your DM allows it go for it.

No, you can substitute ANY attack with a grapple attempt to deal damage. Since flurry of blows is a type of attack, it works. And deals your unarmed damage (which happens to be your flurry damage).

Coidzor
2010-11-09, 09:52 PM
I want to find the groups where monks are absolutely useless in, and wizards end every encounter in the first round, whether it's through complete battlefield control, or killing everything in that round. Until I see that as being the norm, instead of the exception, I'll continue to say that monks aren't absolutely useless, because not everyone has complete system mastery.

So, what, because a person doesn't have system mastery you're against steering them away from a class like the monk which is underpowered in comparison with its direct peers? :smallconfused:

It's not like they'll blow people out of the water as a wizard, but they're far more likely to have it detract from their play experience to be outshone by other basic classes due to their lack of experience with the game.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-09, 10:08 PM
Eh your "unarmed" natural attack damage can't be used with a grapple nor stunning fist, a monk (or this build or any class) could pick up a weapon and do more damage otherwise (defeating the entire build with a single magic item), it adds int to the MAD, burns your precious ring slots, I dunno why you're bothering with power attack on mid BAB nor sunder at all, etc., etc. You'd do more with a warrior 20 and TWF magic gauntlets. Why go through all this trouble just to be worse?

The more common flipside could have been a build that grappled better but without doing any grapple damage, thus when he starts the grapple he gimps himself as much as he gimps his foe. But these are the results of thought exercises that focus on one thing to make a point and kinda-sorta address the rest.

Eh? There are two ways to deal damage in a grapple: 1. make a grapple check to deal damage, with a -4 on the grapple check, or 2. make an attack roll with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon, at -4. Monks are at -4 with either of these, just like anyone else. And anyone with IUS can deal lethal damage in a grapple. So this person has the same two choices to hurt someone in a grapple as a monk: attack, or grapple check. Further, they can actually get magical weapons with the gauntlets. Also, they are fully proficient with unarmed strike. Also they get spells. Also they get sneak attack. Also they have UMD as a class skill for most of their levels. I'm sorry, how is a monk better again? This character can basically act exactly like a monk 100% of the time. You can even write "lawful evil monk" on your character sheet, and act exactly like you are a monk... and people might not notice, except for the fact that you are competent at doing things...

Emmerask
2010-11-09, 10:24 PM
So, what, because a person doesn't have system mastery you're against steering them away from a class like the monk which is underpowered in comparison with its direct peers? :smallconfused:

It's not like they'll blow people out of the water as a wizard, but they're far more likely to have it detract from their play experience to be outshone by other basic classes due to their lack of experience with the game.

I think he is more against the absolutes the forum is so fast to call out :smallwink:
The monk while not being very good in any one field is a class who can contribute in a low to low-med opt game, sure the monk will never be the star of the party but will also not be a liability to it.

If you increase the optimization to medium where fighter become warblades, paladins crusaders then yes monks outside of dipping becomes a liability to the party but not all groups play at medium opt or even high opt where everything that has not full casting is a liability.

Coidzor
2010-11-09, 10:26 PM
I was under the impression that monks are outshadowed by fighters, barbarians, and rangers in the same way that those classes are rendered obsolete by tier 3 melee and tier 3 melee is surpassed by a druid that's turned into a bear.

So I still don't see the reasoning behind encouraging less than adroit players to play a disadvantaged class that seems more that it would require more effort and knowledge of the system to play at the same level as the other PHB classes even going with blaster wizards.

Emmerask
2010-11-09, 10:30 PM
I was under the impression that monks are outshadowed by fighters, barbarians, and rangers in the same way that those classes are rendered obsolete by tier 3 melee and tier 3 melee is surpassed by a druid that's turned into a bear.

Oh they are worse then fighters, paladins, rangers at fighting and worse then rogues at skillmonkey-ing.
In a low opt game though these gaps become far more compressed then in higher opt games.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-09, 11:06 PM
So, in core, if you want a good, mobile skillmonkey that is not heavily armored that is good at melee combat, you are... a ranger? =D Maybe with a rogue dip for first level...

Yrcrazypa
2010-11-09, 11:38 PM
I was under the impression that monks are outshadowed by fighters, barbarians, and rangers in the same way that those classes are rendered obsolete by tier 3 melee and tier 3 melee is surpassed by a druid that's turned into a bear.

So I still don't see the reasoning behind encouraging less than adroit players to play a disadvantaged class that seems more that it would require more effort and knowledge of the system to play at the same level as the other PHB classes even going with blaster wizards.

Except in my experience, I don't see people who play as monks being all that overshadowed. And I can't say I've ever seen clerics/druids completely overpower the fighter/barbarian/ranger/monk in melee. But, most of the groups I've played in just played the game for fun, and didn't analyze the system to get the greatest possible effect out of it. And if someone isn't all that adroit, they won't be too much more effective playing one of the more accepted classes either.

Really, in the levels of play of people who don't frequent forums such as these, the class you pick has little bearing on how effective you are, and unless the DM is specifically doing things to maximize the AC of the monsters, even a monks BAB will be enough to ensure he hits enough to be effective, if the AC were high enough that a monk could never effectively hit it, the fighter would only be hitting once a round too, anyway, barring all the little system mastery tricks that most people wouldn't find out without someone telling them about it.

Cerlis
2010-11-10, 12:01 AM
I'd say use monk weapons that can be used one handed. You can get masterwork and get them enchanted which helps make up for lower chance to hit. at later levels when your Unarmed strike is impressive you can save that for when you have easy to hit enemies (Big dumb golem? Start punching the crap out of it). Weapon focus the weapon for another +1. Dont use a small weak weapon. this also solves your Lycan/demon problem cus you can get silver/dark iron versions of your weapon.

I also vote for Imp. Trip. If you ever get near multiple enemies you can do a Flurry of trips, helping to hinder enemies for your allies and if you succeed you "get your attack back".

Use your speed to help flank (just dont get surrounded), your multiple attacks for many accurate attacks for consistent if low dmg. Your stronger attacks for easier opponents. and your skills and special abilities to help allies (with evasion and the Purity of body, you can go pseudo rogue, since you can survive a majority of the traps out there with ease.)

mabriss lethe
2010-11-10, 03:04 AM
Some low level strategies for a monk.

1- Equipment choices: As a 1st level monk, you have crud for money. For your weapons, pick mostly free ones. quarterstaff is a good melee weapon for you since you can use both hands to increase damage. Sling is a cheap ranged weapon, (you can use rocks at a penalty if you run out of sling bullets.) You can trade these out for better weapons later. Also snag a Kama for trip attempts. Caltrops are also a nice touch. Once you get some spending cash, Nets are a good choice, as are alchemical weapons like acid, alchemists fire and thunderstones.

2-skills: Tumble is an obvious one. Hide and Move Silently are as well. I'm going to give you another: Craft. Which craft skill? Trapmaking. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm) Because mechanical traps are fun. But this is something to work towards because of 1st level money issues.

3-Feats: Improved initiative never hurt anybody. Power attack is pretty good, but not until you have more BAB under your belt. (it'll also always be a problematic source of extra damage for you, since you have less BAB to spare and won't get as much benefit from it.) Blind-fight is situationally useful, but a godsend when you need it. (also, very monk-y) Point blank shot is useful if you plan on doing any ranged combat.

The point here is to do the little things that none of the other characters will think to do. Set traps, spread caltrops, trip mooks and tumble away. Do everything in your power to grief and debuff your enemies. You won't be great at hurting things, so make life difficult for your opponents and give your allies an easier time. Be Sneaky. Be Ruthless. Become Tucker's Kobold (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/).

Kurald Galain
2010-11-10, 06:06 AM
And a 10 foot, 1280 pound man walking around doesn't seem unusual?

Considering the average adventuring party consists of a drow, a minotaur, a floating sandwich and a shardmind, I'd estimate the answer would be "no" :smalltongue:


On the topic of monk comparison, I once made a barbarian that consistently had equal or better saves, and better attack bonus and damage than a monk of equal level, and that's before raging. That wasn't all that hard. I think it got lost in the Great Thread Purge but I'll see if I can dig it up.

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 06:09 AM
Considering the average adventuring party consists of a drow, a minotaur, a floating sandwich and a shardmind, I'd estimate the answer would be "no" :smalltongue:


On the topic of monk comparison, I once made a barbarian that consistently had equal or better saves, and better attack bonus and damage than a monk of equal level, and that's before raging. That wasn't all that hard. I think it got lost in the Great Thread Purge but I'll see if I can dig it up.

Can I play the floating sandwich? Please?

Eldariel
2010-11-10, 07:25 AM
So, in core, if you want a good, mobile skillmonkey that is not heavily armored that is good at melee combat, you are... a ranger? =D Maybe with a rogue dip for first level...

That's pretty much a Rogue in a nutshell. Really, a Rogue is very similar to Monk but insanely much better in everything except saves (Trapfinding = They Can Scout, 8+Int Skills & Light Armor so no need for Wis to AC = They Have Skills, Sneak Attack = They Have Damage, UMD in class is just obvious; oh, and the special abilities are actually quite good). You can dip Barbarian if you want Fast Movement.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-11-10, 08:14 AM
Except in my experience, I don't see people who play as monks being all that overshadowed. And I can't say I've ever seen clerics/druids completely overpower the fighter/barbarian/ranger/monk in melee. But, most of the groups I've played in just played the game for fun, and didn't analyze the system to get the greatest possible effect out of it. And if someone isn't all that adroit, they won't be too much more effective playing one of the more accepted classes either.

Really, in the levels of play of people who don't frequent forums such as these, the class you pick has little bearing on how effective you are, and unless the DM is specifically doing things to maximize the AC of the monsters, even a monks BAB will be enough to ensure he hits enough to be effective, if the AC were high enough that a monk could never effectively hit it, the fighter would only be hitting once a round too, anyway, barring all the little system mastery tricks that most people wouldn't find out without someone telling them about it.

My first game was a ridiculously low-op game with me as a monk plus a fighter/blackguard, a mystic theurge, and a cleric that used spells only sparingly. I had trouble ever hitting anything, or contributing to combat in a meaningful way ever. Was it still fun? Yes, but it was a noticeable drain on the fun that my character was so bad in comparison to the others.

Lhurgyof
2010-11-10, 09:37 AM
My first game was a ridiculously low-op game with me as a monk plus a fighter/blackguard, a mystic theurge, and a cleric that used spells only sparingly. I had trouble ever hitting anything, or contributing to combat in a meaningful way ever. Was it still fun? Yes, but it was a noticeable drain on the fun that my character was so bad in comparison to the others.

I've played in a semi-op. game as a monk and was the party's tank. :smallconfused:

Eldariel
2010-11-10, 10:10 AM
I've played in a semi-op. game as a monk and was the party's tank. :smallconfused:

*shrug* Maybe you just played against low CR opponents or had particularly insane stats negating the relevance of class features? Fundamentally, a Monk is a Barbarian/Fighter with less HP (they are almost even to Fighters if you account for Wholeness of Body), worse AC, lower To Hit & worse Tripping/Disarming/Sundering & Grapple (even accounting for Flurry). If a martial opponent is appropriate for a Barbarian/Fighter, it's probably going to be problematic for a Monk of equivalent level.

Another rather large problem is that Monks lack tanking mechanism; they just aren't quite as good Trippers as Barbs and lack inherent reach weapon profs meaning it's quite hard to make things attack you outside 15' and smaller corridors.

El Dorado
2010-11-10, 12:02 PM
Low level monks are pretty fun to play. With that stat array, you're pretty sturdy despite the lack of armor and your melee abilities will be comparable to other fighty types. Be a team player and look for opportunities to tag team bad guys with fighters and rogues. As your group levels, you'll be able to find your niche in the group and be better informed as to which classes you can take to fulfill that purpose.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-10, 01:14 PM
Okay... Right now I have it set up with 17 STR, 16 WIS, 15 CON, 11 DEX, 11 INT and 9 CHR. Feats are Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative and Power Attack(Might not be the best choice, but I'm not really sure what else to take as I don't have enough BAB yet for Weapon Focus). Most of my skill points are going into Tumble, Spot and Listen, with the others spread out among Climb, Balance, Jump and Move Silently.

I think that should cover most things I need at the beginning. I don't have much gold, so I just picked up a quarterstaff, three daggers(for throwing), and some simple adventuring gear.

Thanks for the help everyone, I know a lot more about Monk now than I did when I started this.

Greenish
2010-11-10, 01:48 PM
Okay... Right now I have it set up with 17 STR, 16 WIS, 15 CON, 11 DEX, 11 INT and 9 CHR. Feats are Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative and Power Attack(Might not be the best choice, but I'm not really sure what else to take as I don't have enough BAB yet for Weapon Focus). Most of my skill points are going into Tumble, Spot and Listen, with the others spread out among Climb, Balance, Jump and Move Silently.

I think that should cover most things I need at the beginning. I don't have much gold, so I just picked up a quarterstaff, three daggers(for throwing), and some simple adventuring gear.

Thanks for the help everyone, I know a lot more about Monk now than I did when I started this.You could swap Wis and Dex to get better initiative.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-10, 02:24 PM
You could swap Wis and Dex to get better initiative.

Hmm... Would it be worth losing 3 on my flat-footed AC to get a boost to initiative? If Reflex also a better save than Will, then?

ArcanistSupreme
2010-11-10, 02:58 PM
Hmm... Would it be worth losing 3 on my flat-footed AC to get a boost to initiative? If Reflex also a better save than Will, then?

Initiative is something that happens every combat, while flat-footed AC is a bit less common. As for the saves, one of the few things that monks actually have going for them is all good saves, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-10, 03:03 PM
I'm thinking... ignore flurry of misses, ignore wisdom to AC, wear Mithral Chain Shirt, have high dex, have low wisdom, use an oak Quarterstaff, and use power attack, and use... *snrk*, cross class UMD to umd partially charged wands of shillelagh? *snrk*.

Gyah, druid is sooo much better at melee, even if they ignore animal companion, summoning, and wild shape, and just use buffs...

RndmNumGen
2010-11-10, 03:28 PM
Initiative is something that happens every combat, while flat-footed AC is a bit less common. As for the saves, one of the few things that monks actually have going for them is all good saves, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Hmm... good point. Plus if I do end up multiclassing out, I won't lose my AC bonus from wearing light/medium armor.



Gyah, druid is sooo much better at melee, even if they ignore animal companion, summoning, and wild shape, and just use buffs...

Thank you for your enlightening comments. :smallsigh:

Signmaker
2010-11-10, 03:30 PM
Wisdom also doesn't have as much of a throw-around benefit when you're stuck solely in PHB. Dex might be a better raw stat, in this scenario.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-10, 03:35 PM
Thank you for your enlightening comments. :smallsigh:

Hey, I gave some actually helpful stuff too, to balance it out... anyway, use armor with armor penalty of 0, since you can use that without proficiency with no penalty. That will eventually be mithral chain shirt, but it will start out as leather. So ya, dump dex, and ignore flurry of whiffs, like I said...

Emmerask
2010-11-10, 03:37 PM
Wisdom also doesn't have as much of a throw-around benefit when you're stuck solely in PHB. Dex might be a better raw stat, in this scenario.

Spot and Listen are pretty important, atleast in the campaigns I run or be a player in both those skills are pretty much the most used ^^
Survival also can be pretty important.

Will saves are among the most important saves you have to do too in low levels,
fear aura, sleep, color spray and all those other level one you die if you donīt make the save spells.

So I would say wisdom is the overall better stat :smalltongue:

Signmaker
2010-11-10, 03:40 PM
Hey, I gave some actually helpful stuff too, to balance it out... anyway, use armor with armor penalty of 0, since you can use that without proficiency with no penalty. That will eventually be mithral chain shirt, but it will start out as leather. So ya, dump dex, and ignore flurry of whiffs, like I said...

Considering he's limited to PHB at the moment?

SurlySeraph
2010-11-10, 04:07 PM
With 0 BAB, you can't use Power Attack. Not to mention that inaccuracy is one of the Monk's biggest problems even before PAing. Power Attack does nothing for you.

I'd switch Wis to Dex. In a core-only environment your Wis won't do much for you. However, if you don't you could take Stunning Fist, or switch out Improved Grapple for Stunning Fist and also take Ability Focus (Stunning Fist). A DC 15 Fort save vs stun is pretty decent at 1st level.

Alternately, you could take Two-Weapon Fighting, taking Combat Reflexes next level. Enough attacks can overcome having a god-awful attack bonus. Flurrying and TWFing with a masterwork quarterstaff, you'll make 3 attacks per round at +0 each. You'll probably hit CR 1 opponents more often that way than by making one attack at +4.

Honestly, I'd be most likely to take Deflect Arrows (and take Combat Reflexes next level). Deflect Arrows isn't particularly good, and it's worthless at higher levels. But at 1st level, ignoring one arrow per round can be an amazing life-saver.

Eldariel
2010-11-10, 04:08 PM
Okay... Right now I have it set up with 17 STR, 16 WIS, 15 CON, 11 DEX, 11 INT and 9 CHR. Feats are Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative and Power Attack(Might not be the best choice, but I'm not really sure what else to take as I don't have enough BAB yet for Weapon Focus). Most of my skill points are going into Tumble, Spot and Listen, with the others spread out among Climb, Balance, Jump and Move Silently.

I think that should cover most things I need at the beginning. I don't have much gold, so I just picked up a quarterstaff, three daggers(for throwing), and some simple adventuring gear.

Thanks for the help everyone, I know a lot more about Monk now than I did when I started this.

Honestly? If you really wanna run a Monk, just go balls on the walls and max your Dex & Wis & Str, put 11 in Con and hope that being harder to hit makes you at least slightly more durable. Though I'd consider running a Con-bonus race like Dwarf to offset that; bonus feats really aren't that big a deal in Core without Monster Manual since the Monk really just doesn't benefit of all that many Core options and you should be able to cover most of them with your bonuses and 7 level-up points.

Wisdom is used to determine Stunning Fist DCs, Strength is used for all the other forms of non-attack fighting (and attacking too for that matter) and Dex is necessary for the Hide/Move Silently/Initiative/etc. parts not to mention AC. 15 AC is already a tremendous improvement from 13 and while losing out on 2 HP/level hurts a lot, especially with D8 HD on a frontliner, since you're playing from level 1, the better plan is not getting hit at all since one hit can KO you regardless of whether you have 8, 9, 10 or 11 HP.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-10, 04:54 PM
Spot and Listen are pretty important, atleast in the campaigns I run or be a player in both those skills are pretty much the most used ^^
Survival also can be pretty important.

Will saves are among the most important saves you have to do too in low levels,
fear aura, sleep, color spray and all those other level one you die if you donīt make the save spells.

So I would say wisdom is the overall better stat :smalltongue:

Yeah, having a high Spot and Listen is why I originally decided to take high WIS and medium INT so I can invest points in those skills.


With 0 BAB, you can't use Power Attack. Not to mention that inaccuracy is one of the Monk's biggest problems even before PAing. Power Attack does nothing for you.


Oh... wow. I can't believe I didn't notice that. Okay, so yeah, Power Attack is definitely out. What else though? There doesn't seem to be a lot of good feats available to me right now... All I really see is the feats that give skill bonuses, unless I do increase my DEX which opens up a few others(Dodge and Deflect Arrows being the two main ones that I see.)

If I do decide to go the TWF route, I'll probably multiclass into Ranger, so I don't really want to take the TWF feat right now.


Honestly? If you really wanna run a Monk, just go balls on the walls and max your Dex & Wis & Str, put 11 in Con and hope that being harder to hit makes you at least slightly more durable. Though I'd consider running a Con-bonus race like Dwarf to offset that; bonus feats really aren't that big a deal in Core without Monster Manual since the Monk really just doesn't benefit of all that many Core options and you should be able to cover most of them with your bonuses and 7 level-up points.


I had 11 CON originally and 15 DEX originally, but several people pointed out that CON was much better for me. I would rather be a human though, I think.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-10, 05:00 PM
If you're grappling, you'll generally want armor... go with an armored monk. Masterwork Studded Leather is in the PHB, and gives no penalties. Normal leather is in the PHB and can be bought with starting gold.

I'd ignore stunning fist / flurry of whiffs / wis to ac / all those crappy features, wear armor, grapple things, or hit things with a quarterstaff... eventually pick up power attack, and hope you have a ton of buffs to hit things.

Also hope to GOD you have some kind of spellcasting buff support. Enlarge Person will be vital, bull's strength will be vital... buffs will be vital if you want to do anything competently...

Cieyrin
2010-11-10, 05:30 PM
If you're grappling, you'll generally want armor... go with an armored monk. Masterwork Studded Leather is in the PHB, and gives no penalties. Normal leather is in the PHB and can be bought with starting gold.

I'd ignore stunning fist / flurry of whiffs / wis to ac / all those crappy features, wear armor, grapple things, or hit things with a quarterstaff... eventually pick up power attack, and hope you have a ton of buffs to hit things.

Also hope to GOD you have some kind of spellcasting buff support. Enlarge Person will be vital, bull's strength will be vital... buffs will be vital if you want to do anything competently...

You, sir, sound like you should be playing a Barbarian, over a Monk. Look at Eldariel's sig, he has a guide for Barbarians there. It'll tell you all you want to know. Wearing armor, grapple, Pow, carry big sticks...yeah, that's a Barbarian.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-10, 05:32 PM
Well I would MUCH rather he play a barbarian. It's not a gimped class like the monk, and is actually decent at unarmed combat and grappling if built for it!

But he wanted help in making the monk feasible, so I started trying to figure out how to do that. That mostly requires ignoring most of the monk's class features, as near as I can tell.

Eldariel
2010-11-10, 06:06 PM
I had 11 CON originally and 15 DEX originally, but several people pointed out that CON was much better for me. I would rather be a human though, I think.

That's true to a degree but on the other hand, you can't really do much in terms of monkiness without high Dex and Wis. Otherwise the AC bonus is fairly useless and you basically need to wear armor in order to not be hit. Also, Con is really a stat that kicks off in a couple of levels; on level 1, Con isn't so huge but on level 2-5 you'll be feeling it much more already (since the Class HDs aren't maximized for those levels). So purely considering your odds of surviving level 1, Dex/Wis would help you more there.

But the reason I suggested Dwarf is 'cause you could both, have the cake and eat it too; you'd get respectable Con along with Dex & Wis. It's...well, this is precisely the MAD issue of Monks; you really want 4 high stats and here we only have 3. If you dump either Dex or Wis, your AC will be painfully low especially early on (not to mention Hide/Move Silently/Initiative/Reflex or Spot/Listen/Stunning Fist/Will), unless you wear armor and thus forfeit most Monk class features (you're basically left with Unarmed Strikes). And if you dump Con...well, the issue is obvious, you'll have poor Fort-saves and low HP.


As for the feat, I'd suggest looking at something simple for the future. If you pick Dex over Wis, pick Stunning Fist as your bonus feat and take Improved Grapple as your normal feat. That way you can have both. And if you prioritise Wis over Dex, pick Improved Grapple as your bonus feat and eventually like Stunning Fist as a normal feat. Meh.

Honestly, I'm just concerned that you die in the first few sessions because of your low AC or HP; that's all. No matter the level of optimization, having your character die sucks.

Greenish
2010-11-11, 07:33 AM
Well I would MUCH rather he play a barbarian. It's not a gimped class like the monk, and is actually decent at unarmed combat and grappling if built for it!That was the point, he's playing with a bunch of beginners and doesn't want to overshadow them.

dsmiles
2010-11-11, 08:07 AM
No matter the level of optimization, having your character die sucks.

I couldn't agree more, having just lost a character in EtCR. I am now forced to play her former cohort (an awakened Gorgon Light Myrmidon Monk/Stone Dragon Warblade/soon to be Warhulk), but at least it'll catch up kind of quickly, being 2 levels behind and all.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-11, 11:33 AM
Honestly, I'm just concerned that you die in the first few sessions because of your low AC or HP; that's all. No matter the level of optimization, having your character die sucks.

Ah. A very valid point, but honestly I'm not too worried about it; the DM is going to start off with very easy challenges, as the other players characters are extremely unoptimized. That is why I decided to take this opportunity to play Monk.


That was the point, he's playing with a bunch of beginners and doesn't want to overshadow them.

Exactly. I would rather play a semi-optimized monk and roughly rival the other unoptimized players who have stronger classes than I do. If I end up being too weak, I can always talk to the DM about it or consider multiclassing. If I'm too strong, I can just hold back a little, maybe focusing on protecting my allies instead of killing our foes. If I play something like a optimized barbarian right from the start though, I'll either wipe everything off the map or have to stand in the back twidding my thumbs.

ericgrau
2010-11-11, 01:05 PM
Ya if you start at low levels a barbarian will outshine just about everything, caster or not. The other advantage of a controlling monk build is that you make your allies' attacks stronger and give them more limelight.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-12, 11:13 AM
On the topic of monk comparison, I once made a barbarian that consistently had equal or better saves, and better attack bonus and damage than a monk of equal level, and that's before raging. That wasn't all that hard. I think it got lost in the Great Thread Purge but I'll see if I can dig it up.

Ah, here we go. Core-only.

Ranger 1 / Barbarian 9

Stats: S14 D16 C12, I10 W14 X8, level boosts go to strength.
Feats: Improved initiative (1), Iron will (1), Power attack (3), two spare feats (6, 9)
Items: pick up magic weapon, armor, and cloak as soon as you can afford them.

This rangarian should have (1) more HP, (2) better AC, (3) higher fortitude and reflex saves, (4) higher attack bonus, and (5) more damage per hit than a monk anywhere between level 1 and 10, and that's merely because I didn't bother doing the math at higher levels. His will save is one point behind.

This is all before raging (which is a serious boost) and without heavy-duty optimization. If he needs to be e.g. a better grappler, simply add Improved Grapple to the mix.

grimbold
2010-11-12, 11:54 AM
methinks a dwarf monk would be interesting. Go for the two weapon tree
that should work ok. Ask for full BAB progression your DM will probs grant it. If you build carefully you can get like a monk i once had who had two-weapon fighting and d20 damage.
still couldnt hold up to a well built fighter. but monks can be some fun as a fluffy class