OOTS #756 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, looks like many people were right about Tarquin sending the dragoons to help the other side.

[Sinfonian]

Interesting, we about to get to see how Elan reacts to someone directly telling him about his father's less than forthright actions. I especially like that his father doesn't deny anything, I think it'll make for some good material.

I'm anxious for the next comic already.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Thank you Giant! :smallsmile:

[DeafnotDumb]

Tarquin, you are a bastard. An utter utter bastard.

But you've got so much style :smallbiggrin:.

[Rogue 7]

Raise your hand if you saw this coming.

*raises hand*

[CoffeeIncluded]

Wow. Elan...Is not going to like this. Tarquin may have just made a big mistake here.

[Logalmier]

I wonder how Elan is going to react...

EDIT: Also, I think the title is hilarious.

[pendell]

And so the shoe begins to drop. When will Elan begin to figure it out...? If ever...?

I don't understand Tarquin's betrayal of the city. What advantage does it give him to hand over a small city to a rival empire? I would think it would be more sensible to defend the city from Tears and make it into a client state. He keeps his honor, he adds a city to his empire (de facto, if not de jure). Everyone's happy except the Empire of Tears.

Presumably this will be explained in a couple of strips.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mando Knight]

Speaking of dodge bonuses to AC... :smalltongue:

[Shale]

Okay, Elan can't ignore that completely? Can he? Right?

He probably can.

Also, the entire fandom totally called that.

[Squark]

Elan doesn't have much of a facial expression at this point. Is he in shock, or what?

[Stmr5000]

So what type of weapon is the angry lady using? Falcion?

[Pandabear]

now that was to be expected..

[Belsirk]

And so the shoe begins to drop. When will Elan begin to figure it out...? If ever...?

I don't understand Tarquin's betrayal of the city. What advantage does it give him to hand over a small city to a rival empire? I would think it would be more sensible to defend the city from Tears and make it into a client state. He keeps his honor, he adds a city to his empire (de facto, if not de jure). Everyone's happy except the Empire of Tears.

Presumably this will be explained in a couple of strips.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Maybe EMpire of Tear is the client of Tarquin
However... a big Burrito on the idea ELan will not believe Tarquin is red from Evil

[pendell]

Okay, Elan can't ignore that completely? Can he? Right?

He probably can.

Also, the entire fandom totally called that.

Nope, not me. I missed it. I thought he was negotiating in good faith. I was wrong. Rich Burlew tricks me again.

Man, I'm glad I'm not a player at his table. I'd have to carry a whole binder full of character sheets.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KillItWithFire]

We don't know if perhaps now the Empire of Tears now owes The EoB a private favor of some sort. There could be a whole multitude of reasons why events transpired the way they did. I'm more interested by the fact that Tarquin seems to delibrately want to revel to his son that he is evil. Is that just his dramatic sense? Or is there some ulterior motive?

[mucat]

Aww...Elan's going to be devastated. I assume he knew his father was evil, and fully expected to lose a hand in a duel at some point -- who is he to fight a good dramatic convention?

But I don't think he expected the old man to be a cad.

[Scutilla]

Wow. Elan...Is not going to like this. Tarquin may have just made a big mistake here.
Oh, I doubt it. Note the huge smug grin on Tarquin's face when Elan stepped in. It's likely this scene is playing out exactly like he wants it to.

[Mando Knight]

Also, I love how smug Tarquin looks in the first panel of the third row. And then how he switches to the "goofy-Elan-grin" in the last panel.

[Toper]

Tee hee. Tarquin.

Also, Amun-Zora is clearly unaware that slime molds are delicious.

[Lateral]

Ooh, goodbye, Elan's childlike trust in his father.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Oh, I doubt it. Note the huge smug grin on Tarquin's face when Elan stepped in. It's likely this scene is playing out exactly like he wants it to.

Yeah, but if he sees this as Nale 2.0, or if Haley gets involved...Or Roy or Belkar. I'm saying that even if this works out well for Tarquin, he doesn't know all the factors and we know that Elan's a wild card. As much of a planner as Tarquin is, this could backfire badly.

[2-HeadedGiraffe]

I don't understand Tarquin's betrayal of the city.

I would guess it's more advantageous to get on an empire's good side than that of a single free city.

[Bago!!!]

Great comic giant!

Concerning why Tarquin would turn over the city, it's a small city and if the Empire of Tears is a powerhouse, help the power house out to stave off your own doom (or to cement an alliance).

I doubt Elan is going think his dad is evil based on nothing but Elan's 'intelligence'.

[maxon]

*GASP* is that the sound of scales falling? From Elan's eyes?

[Tulio d Bard]

Did Tarquin wanted to get Elan to this fight, or actually show him something in the top level (probably something bad as well)?

[shannoby]

I doubt he is regretting anything, that big grin of his is of a man that has all the pieces falling exactly as he anticipated, and is like five moves ahead of his opponents.

[BadAndyMk3]

Put me on the list of people who totally called it.

Also, put me on the list of peopel who laughed out loud when Tarquin said it was so obvious what he was doing that he was worried she would spot it.

[Edhelras]

Well. I actually saw that one coming. But nice to right, for once...

[Stmr5000]

I will admit, I thought they were going to take the city for the Empire of blood. Color me surprised.

[ref]

OK, one thing's clear. We've come to a turning point. But what way will it go? I myself, am awaiting eagerly for 757.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Yep, EXCTLY what I was expecting. Sometimes the best surprise is NO surprise!

Tarquin, don't you ever change!

[Gift Jeraff]

I remember back when the Empress of Blood was introduced, some people speculated that the Empire of Tears would be blue-themed and be ruled by a blue dragon.

Perhaps the Empress of Blood is to marry the Emperor of Tears?

Also, I wonder what colour the Empire of Sweat is. Yellow?

[Forever Curious]

Lawful...evil. Enough said.

[Scarlet Knight]

I will give the city it's own governor & relative independence...IF... you marry me! BWA HA HA!

[Hardcore]

Tarquin is in a way as weird in the head as Elan. Note his behaviour in the last panel: "I guess it all worked out, huh?"

[iTookUrNick]

Put me on the list of people who totally called it.

Also, put me on the list of peopel who laughed out loud when Tarquin said it was so obvious what he was doing that he was worried she would spot it.

That was priceless.

[FoE]

Of course, this means that Tarquin essentially lied to Captain Amun-Zora to get her in the sack.

Niiiiiiice. :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

Wonder how Elan will take that...

[Lombard]

Also, I love how smug Tarquin looks in the first panel of the third row. And then how he switches to the "goofy-Elan-grin" in the last panel.

yeah the look on Elan's dad's face in panel 7 ftw lol

[Crisis21]

Well, looks like the first 'lover's spat' between Tarquin and 'future Mrs. Tarquin #10'.

Wow, the guy takes being literal to a whole new evil level.

[JonestheSpy]

You know, I think Tarquin just doesn't realize that Elan is so clueless about his evilness. Like how he didn't get that Elan wasn't just pretending to be childlike in #750 for the purposes of Father-son bonding. I mean, how could a kid of his be so dumb, right?

I think Tarquin is going to be very surprised when Elan finally clues in.

[KingMerv00]

Looks like Tarquin has a healthy Dex bonus.

[Darkfyre99]

Raise your hand if you saw this coming.

*raises hand*

*raises hand*

(sarcasm) But... maybe the Free City of Doom has some secret air quotes in there, and so it's a good thing that he's helping the Empire of Tears conquor them. So he's really Lawful Neutral, despite betraying the spirit (if not the letter) of his word. (/sarcasm)

[zadcap]

Now now, this could very easily be a mere Lawful Neutral act. He did not lie about what would happen, and he had no reason to side with a small kingdom about to be overrun by a rival empire. When you are a ruler, you have to put what is best for your kingdom first, and you can presume going to war with another empire is not usually a good thing.

Definitely not a Good act, on any terms, but not a downright Evil one either. Especially if they have an alliance with the EoT, in which case this is strictly Lawful without regards to Good or Evil.


Using it as an excuse to sleep with her, 100% evil.

[jidasfire]

Tarquin will weasel his way out of this. It's far too soon for him to start losing composure. I'm fairly sure he will indeed offer Amun-Zora control of the city, and she will probably accept. The question is, will Elan begin to suspect his father of being a villain? I think he'll probably be overwhelmed by whatever the surprise is, so probably not.

[Pip]

Elan may be stupid, but even he will begin to suspect that perhaps everyone else isn't mistaken about his dad. I also suspect that dad's suprise will seal the deal

[Zea mays]

"...my associates in the Prefecture informed me of a unique..."

A unique what?
What about the prefecture?
The surprise, what is it ??
What???

I eagerly await 757. :smalleek:

[ThreadKiller]

Awww, poor Elan. I also can't say that I'm surprised, and I also echo the sentiment in wondering if Elan will take this as a big hint about his father.

Thanks for the comic, Giant. :smallsmile:

[Welf]

You just gotta love Tarquin. Everyone can be an evil scheming bastard, but he just makes it classy with his childlike joy. :smallbiggrin:

[Scion_of_Darkness]

I have no idea how Elan will react, but Belkar is going to love Tarquin.

[Murdim]

Tarquin has altered the deal, and Amun-Zora should pray that he doesn't alter it any further.

This man is so meta, I'm beginning to worry that he might accidentally tear through the translucent curtain which acts as the series' fourth wall and unleash the Snarl unto the real world.

[LordSplendid]

I don't understand Tarquin's betrayal of the city. What advantage does it give him to hand over a small city to a rival empire? I would think it would be more sensible to defend the city from Tears and make it into a client state. He keeps his honor, he adds a city to his empire (de facto, if not de jure). Everyone's happy except the Empire of Tears.

It makes perfects sense if the Empire of Tears is of about equal power of the Empire of Blood and is strong enough to easily take the city anyway.

It is pointless to get into meatgrinder war with a neighbour just for the sake of a small city if you are not sure to win. If you can greatly improve your relations with said power to little real cost, perhaps enough for an alliance that will benefit both, of course you should do it.

Especially if you think you can improve your powerbase faster than your rival.

[Grendus]

I must admit, I thought the dragoons would be capturing the city for the EoB, or possibly keeping it as a vassal state. But then, not knowing much about the actual political climate of the southern nations I figured the EoT was an upstart empire and the EoB was using the city as kind of a turning point - crush their army at a fraction of the cost, then while the little nation is recovering send in "reinforcements." Once the war is over, a few demands of repayment and some veiled threats are enough to cement your control over a vassal nation.

But then, we know nothing about the EoT. It could be bigger than the EoB for all we know, and Tarquin was doing the very lawful evil thing of selling out a small ally to buy a tenuous peace from the EoT while they happily conquer the rest of the southern nations.

Still not sure how Tarquin plans to use this information to his advantage. I suspect that his plans don't nearly take into account how powerful the rest of the OOtS is. Belkar killed a small army of hobgoblins in a single battle. Haley killed all his palace guards while using a weapon she wasn't proficient with (unless that forked spear is a simple weapon), after being thrown out of a window and taking a wall of blades to the face. V is... a high level wizard. Even unoptimized, she's powerful. Durkon is a cleric, same story different chapter. Even Roy, single class fighter, is fairly optimized, and his aggregate mental scores give him a huge advantage from a non-munchkin perspective.

I suspect in a few comics he'll be quoting his other son ("Why is it these plans can never unravel a little at a time").

[Cerlis]

Indeed, I dont think Tarquinn knows how elan's brain works. He probably thinks Elan was protecting his rightful lord and father, when Elan was really just stopping a fight.

If it where two guys on the street Elan probably woulda stopped them...and converted them to Banjoism

[Xykeb Zraliv]

You know, this is a great strip and all, but honestly, the only thing I can think of is...

I frickin' hope Sijo's happy. :smallsigh:

[KingFlameHawk]

What I think is going to happen next is that Haley, with her high Stealth rank was watching the entire time and will sneak attack Tarquin next strip. This will cause Elan to defend his father and through a combination of his infinate wisdom, his faith in this father, and Tarquin's ability to spin things Elan will find a way the "rationalize" his actions. And because of this Haley and V will become fugitives and Elan will become more involved with the Empire.

[OITS]

He still is the good twin, not the neutral twin...

[Aenghus]

It occurs to me that Tarquin may regularly have to move on when he burns one too many bridges, the downside of being evil, and so preparing the way for a new job elsewhere is just good sense. This presents another reason for doing a favour for the Empire of Tears. The dragon empress of Blood strikes me as temperamental and impulsive, so for a general as devious as Tarquin, an escape plan (or ten) seems entirely in character.

[SaintRidley]

I'll raise my hand as well, and also note that Tarquin continues to impress with his awesomeness.

[mucat]

What I think is going to happen next is that Haley, with her high Stealth rank was watching the entire time and will sneak attack Tarquin next strip. This will cause Elan to defend his father and through a combination of his infinate wisdom, his faith in this father, and Tarquin's ability to spin things Elan will find a way the "rationalize" his actions. And because of this Haley and V will become fugitives and Elan will become more involved with the Empire.

This is a joke?

[Gift Jeraff]

But then, we know nothing about the EoT. It could be bigger than the EoB for all we know, and Tarquin was doing the very lawful evil thing of selling out a small ally to buy a tenuous peace from the EoT while they happily conquer the rest of the southern nations.
Size-wise, the Empire of Tears is right behind the Empire of Blood (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).


Still not sure how Tarquin plans to use this information to his advantage. I suspect that his plans don't nearly take into account how powerful the rest of the OOtS is.
I don't think Tarquin's plans involve fighting the OOTS at all. Heck, he doesn't even know that Roy and Belkar are connected to them.

Unless you mean he plans to use the Order for his own gains. Or that he is genre-savvy enough to know that he will have to go against them, and should know that those two strange, powerful gladiators are with them. :smalltongue:

[Yendor]

Well, that was entirely predictable. Enough so that Tarquin obviously didn't lose his dodge bonus. :smalltongue:

[Anterean]

Nope, not me. I missed it. I thought he was negotiating in good faith. I was wrong. Rich Burlew tricks me again.

Man, I'm glad I'm not a player at his table. I'd have to carry a whole binder full of character sheets.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Me as well, me as well

[GreenMuffin]

I don't understand Tarquin's betrayal of the city. What advantage does it give him to hand over a small city to a rival empire? I would think it would be more sensible to defend the city from Tears and make it into a client state. He keeps his honor, he adds a city to his empire (de facto, if not de jure). Everyone's happy except the Empire of Tears.

Think about it. Would you rather be allies of a small city, and enemies of a large empire, or the allies of a large empire, and the enemies of a now defeated small city.

You just have to think like an evil villan :smallamused:

[KingFlameHawk]

This is a joke?

Not at all.

[Stmr5000]

Looks like Tarquin has a healthy Dex bonus.

Actually, since that was most likely a surprise round, he wouldn't get his dex bonus for the first attack. Not to say that the next few dodges didn't take skill.

[Tulio d Bard]

I like the sound of that blade cutting the air. :smallsmile:

[lothos]

*GASP* is that the sound of scales falling? From Elan's eyes?

I don't know about that. However with the reptilian theme of the Empire of Blood, it just occurred to me that if a dragon or lizard-folk ever had "The Scales Fall away from their eyes", it might be more of a problem for them.....

[blackjack217]

Made of win

[Quorothorn]

Actually, since that was most likely a surprise round, he wouldn't get his dex bonus for the first attack. Not to say that the next few dodges didn't take skill.

I'm not sure if it was a surprise round, though, judging from Tarquin's reaction. :smallsmile:

Also, I presume I'm not the only one who would like a large-view, zoomable version of that map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)? Maybe it's just my atrocious eyesight, but I can only really make out the three Empires and the names of a couple other states. I mean, sure, half of them will change in a few months' time, but still.

[The Pilgrim]

That's PURE Lawful Evil.

Pure LawFul Evil with a great dodge bonus, by the way.

Also, I bet 757 will be back to Roy, or to Durkon.

[blackjack217]

her face reminds me of miko...crap :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek:

[Gift Jeraff]

Also, I presume I'm not the only one who would like a large-view, zoomable version of that map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)? Maybe it's just my atrocious eyesight, but I can only really make out the three Empires and the names of a couple other states. I mean, sure, half of them will change in a few months' time, but still.

Based on another thread and some earlier dialogue, they seem to be:
Scalya, Fiendland, Cruelvania, Fangland
Dictatoria, ??, T.B.D., Evilopia
Empire of Blood, Reptilia
Empire of Sweat, Free City of Doom, Empire of Tears
The Coastly Coast, West Despotonia, East Despotonia, Sandsedge
The Dark Republic, People's Democratic Dictatorship

?? and T.B.D. were the only ones confirmed by the Giant. (The only one I have my doubts about is the Coastly Coast; yes, it fits with names like Sunken Valley, but still.)

[Kurald Galain]

Great pose in panel seven :smallbiggrin:

[TheBlackShadow]

Ah. This wasn't entirely unexpected.

Personally, I still maintain that Tarquin would have benefitted more by aiding the Free City of Doom, as, by showing himself as an enemy of the other empire who's name I have inconveniently forgotten (the Empire of Tears?), he would have gained the allegiance of most of the other nations on the continent. After all, the other empire has shown itself to be highly expansionist and thus a threat to the sovereignty of all the other nations, whereas the Empire of Blood would seem a relatively safe ally. With the rest of the continent at his back, Tarquin could easily crush the other Empire, dominating the entire continent in the process.

[rewinn]

Any guess as to what the surprise is?

I assume it was not supposed to be the Ambassador trying to kill Tarquin. My guess: ... a Helm of Reverse Alignment for Elan ... presented to him as something else of course ... making it much easier for Tarquin to keep his son at his side.
:elan: Hooray! Now I understand that it really is all about meeeeeee!!!
:haley: Some girls just love the bad boys! Tee-Hee!

[Petrocorus]

I don't really understand the title.

But i raise my hand for having seen this coming.



If it where two guys on the street Elan probably woulda stopped them...and converted them to Banjoism

We should all convert to Banjoism anyway. For Banjo's sake, it's obvious that it's the best religion evaar.

[Knaight]

Think about it. Would you rather be allies of a small city, and enemies of a large empire, or the allies of a large empire, and the enemies of a now defeated small city.

You just have to think like an evil villan :smallamused:

Its even better than that. It wasn't the empire of blood that sent the troops, it was Tarquin, specifically. He can claim to have acted as a lone agent, and those if the EoB and EoT come into conflict, or outside force crushes the EoB, he can't lose.

[Martok]

....And once again, Tarquin shows much of a Magnificent Bastard he is. I love it!


On the other hand, I too am curious as to how his actions will sit with Elan.

What makes things especially difficult is that it's hard to tell just how perceptive Tarquin is: Does he not realize how childlike Elan really is? Does he honestly not have a clue that Roy and Belkar are Elan & Haley's friends? While it's true that -- thus far, at least -- he's given no indication he's aware of these things, it's also hard to believe that Tarquin doesn't have at least some inkling about them either.


Gah! Now I'm more anxious than ever to see how this all pans out.





Put me on the list of people who totally called it.
+1

Of course, I'm pretty sure most of us called it, so that's probably not saying much. :smallwink:




Also, put me on the list of peopel who laughed out loud when Tarquin said it was so obvious what he was doing that he was worried she would spot it.
+1 again.

I definitely laughed out loud at that bit. I love how Rich lampshades the fanbase's own reaction. :smallamused:

[Dancing_Fox]

Actually, since that was most likely a surprise round, he wouldn't get his dex bonus for the first attack. Not to say that the next few dodges didn't take skill.

I don't think we should read too much into the combat. Tarquin is a combat hardened general. We first see Amun-Zora appearing in a role as a diplomat - her fighting skills are not likely to be as high because of this.

[The Pink Ninja]

Tarquin seems to be a distressingly high level ¬____¬

Think he's a straight fighter? Because my money is on prestige classes.

[Geno9999]

Yeah, but if he sees this as Nale 2.0, or if Haley gets involved...Or Roy or Belkar. I'm saying that even if this works out well for Tarquin, he doesn't know all the factors and we know that Elan's a wild card. As much of a planner as Tarquin is, this could backfire badly.

I thought Nale's crazy, over-the-top planning skills came from Mom.

It's hard to tell how Elan will react, considering he has a rather blank face on him. If they do duel, I'm going to bet that Elan gets his hand cut off, leading to a Star Wars homage:
Tarquin; "Join me Elan, and together we'll rule the Empire of Blood, as Father and Son"
Elan; "I'll never join you!"

[Zmflavius]

Just going by the map...

Adding on to the theories that he's trying to ally with the Empire of Tears...

This is kind of a wild shot in the dark, but I noticed that

1) The free city of the doom completely separates the empire of Tears from the Empire of Sweat.
2) So...maybe it formerly existed as a buffer state between Tears and Sweat, and Tarquin, in causing the ruin of said buffer state, is allowing the Empire of Tears to fight the Empire of Sweat, thus weakening two of the only nations large enough to be even close in strength to the Empire of Blood, for the final conquest by the Empire of Blood?

[Knaight]

Nale's plans consistently fail because of how crazy it is. The intelligence to devise them and have the success he does is from Tarquin.

[erictheredd]

I thought Nale's crazy, over-the-top planning skills came from Mom.

well, they've all shown it now, remember the corkscrew that a woman's life depended on?

[Knaight]

Just going by the map...

Adding on to the theories that he's trying to ally with the Empire of Tears...

This is kind of a wild shot in the dark, but I noticed that

1) The free city of the doom completely separates the empire of Tears from the Empire of Sweat.
2) So...maybe it formerly existed as a buffer state between Tears and Sweat, and Tarquin, in causing the ruin of said buffer state, is allowing the Empire of Tears to fight the Empire of Sweat, thus weakening two of the only nations large enough to be even close in strength to the Empire of Blood, for the final conquest by the Empire of Blood?

Its less an alliance with Empire of tears and more a continuation of his consistent behavior in outlasting empires. This outcome helps him too, which is the point, he's manipulating the situation so that he has no loss condition. Which is why its as appropriate as it is that he is at serious risk of being taken down by a complete wild card.

[DougTheHead]

One thing to keep in mind- Tarquin referred to Elan as a "protagonist." It's not traditional for protagonists to fall under the sway of their evil fathers. Either Tarquin's overlooking a ton of dramatic convention, or he's pretty sure he can move faster than the speed of plot.

[Ted The Bug]

Is it just my monitor, or are the lines slightly thinner in this one?

[Gd8908]

As our dear friend Elan once said in trial, "Dun, dun, DUUUUN!"
Boy, Elan must be in shock or something with that expressionless face. Wonder what'll happen. I can almost be sure that Haley will interfere within the next three comics. (which will probably be spent with amusing arguing, explaining, and annoying stalling for the final clamatic battle with either Elan and Tarquin, Haley, Elan, and Tarquin, V, Haley, Elan, and Tarquin, or Durkon, V, Haley, Elan, and Tarquin, not to mention a few out-there scenarios that would make this bracketed sentence too long.) YAY, end of side-story!!

[DoctorIllithid]

Who's better to have as an ally? Some city state or another empire? Yeah, I like Tarquin's thinking.

[Mastikator]

So Tarqin just bold face admitted to making an unprovoked attack on a different state after say he'd support them. In front of Elan.

If Elan turns a blind eye, I will hate him forever.

[silvadel]

While this smacks of something redcloak would do (lawful evil), there is nothing at all that T said that was an untruth. He said he would send troops -- he did NOT say which side they would support. For all Elan knows the invading forces could be completely in their rights to take over and this stopped a lot of bloodshed.

[Capt Spanner]

Tarquin has altered the deal, and Amun-Zora should pray that he doesn't alter it any further.

This man is so meta, I'm beginning to worry that he might accidentally tear through the translucent curtain which acts as the series' fourth wall and unleash the Snarl unto the real world.

Now you mention it, has anyone seen Rich and The Dark One in the same room together?


Nope, not me. I missed it. I thought he was negotiating in good faith. I was wrong. Rich Burlew tricks me again.

Man, I'm glad I'm not a player at his table. I'd have to carry a whole binder full of character sheets.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

May I suggest playing Paranoia?

Also, I have a bargain price on a bridge, if you're interested :P

[TheNerdMiester]

what if the EoB joins the EoT? Super empire!

[TheBST]

....And once again, Tarquin shows much of a Magnificent Bastard he is.

You're not much of a Magnificent Bastard if your plan relies on the victims being dumb enough to let 500 troops, who they've been allied with for less than week, from a place called the Empire of Blood into their city via their secret passageway.

The secret passageway. During a siege.

Bloody hell, if the Free City of Doom's leaders are that stupid you probably could've taken the city by knocking on the front door disguised as Santa and his elves.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Loved the comic.

I don't have anything more to say.

[Zmflavius]

You're not much of a Magnificent Bastard if your plan relies on the victims being dumb enough to let 500 troops, who they've been allied with for less than week, from a place called the Empire of Blood into their city via their secret passageway.

The secret passageway. During a siege.

Bloody hell, if the Free City of Doom's leaders are that stupid you probably could've taken the city by knocking on the front door disguised as Santa and his elves.

To be fair, taking advantage of someone else's stupidity is still pretty bastardly.

[Niveus Candidus]

Great pose in panel seven :smallbiggrin:

Maybe the greatest pose in the comic's history; it sends chills.

[Elfin]

Well.
Tarquin certainly isn't a very nice guy, is he?

[veti]

Well, I for one did not see that coming. Strategically, it makes no sense to support a large rival against a much weaker one. Whatever Tarquin's doing here, it's definitely not in the best interests of the Empire of Blood, assuming those interests involve it remaining independent...

Maybe Tarquin is playing a double game all along, privately selling out Blood for Tears. That's about the only explanation I can think of at this point.

[HalfTangible]

Replace Elan's funny idiocy with funny douchebaggery and you have general tarquin.

[the_tick_rules]

Well this is going to not go over well with Elan.

[Shale]

Well, I for one did not see that coming. Strategically, it makes no sense to support a large rival against a much weaker one. Whatever Tarquin's doing here, it's definitely not in the best interests of the Empire of Blood, assuming those interests involve it remaining independent...

Maybe Tarquin is playing a double game all along, privately selling out Blood for Tears. That's about the only explanation I can think of at this point.

This is a good strategy for both Tarquin and his ruling clique, as long as you accept that maintaining the Empire of Blood as a sovereign nation in perpetuity is a pipe dream. It's going to die - every nation on the Western Continent does. In fact, given the "intelligence" of its monarch, the EoB is probably very close to beating the odds just by surviving for two years.

Building up Blood and Tears as the regional superpowers means that they will keep going (and keep growing) in the short term, which is good for both of them. Anything that staves off the inevitable is. In the medium-term, it all but guarantees that when one of them collapses, the other will follow - very likely the collapse will happen in a war between the two.

That creates a whole new array of smaller states that Tarquin can choose from for his next job. If Tarquin sided against Tears, and then down the line Blood collapses but Tears is still going strong, then Tarquin would have a difficult time finding employment in the remains of his former empire because he just lost that very same land, while Tears would represent a massive block of land with few job opportunities for him.

[Cerlis]

One thing to keep in mind- Tarquin referred to Elan as a "protagonist." It's not traditional for protagonists to fall under the sway of their evil fathers. Either Tarquin's overlooking a ton of dramatic convention, or he's pretty sure he can move faster than the speed of plot.

wasnt Grendel* a protagonist?


The secret passageway. During a siege.


and i suppose they are going to ask the Empire of Tears to let them let their allies in through the front door? "'scuse me guys, our allies are here, so could you please let them through"

and no them attacking fromt he outside wouldnt have happened. I think even Rohan had more than 500 troops when they attacked Sauron's forces, and they where losing until the undead army came.

*Edited thanks to Kish

[jidasfire]

Well, I for one did not see that coming. Strategically, it makes no sense to support a large rival against a much weaker one. Whatever Tarquin's doing here, it's definitely not in the best interests of the Empire of Blood, assuming those interests involve it remaining independent...

Maybe Tarquin is playing a double game all along, privately selling out Blood for Tears. That's about the only explanation I can think of at this point.

Actually, if you think about it, it does make sense. Tarquin probably wanted the FCOD for himself, and when he saw that the Empire of Tears had set their sights on it before him, he enacted a sneaky plan to steal it out from under them. Pretend to forge an alliance, assuming the FCOD would think he was only supporting them to fight their major enemy but certainly going along. Instead, he takes the FCOD in a quick and decisive manner. This keeps the Empire of Tears out, because they probably aren't ready for a full-on war, and certainly not over something as small as the FCOD. Thus, Tarquin gets what he wants, and the only price was sleeping with a woman.

Yeah, he's a magnificent bastard.

[Kish]

wasnt Grendle a protagonist?
Ah, yes. Grendel* was the protagonist of the epic poem Grendel, in which he fought Beowulf.

Wait a minute, I think I'm getting some detail or other wrong.

*Unless you mean a character whose name was actually spelled Grendle, in which case I think you might be overestimating that character's name-recognition.

[Felhammer]

Tarquin is what the French would call "Le Smooth" :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Cerlis]

Ah, yes. Grendel* was the protagonist of the epic poem Grendel, in which he fought Beowulf.

Wait a minute, I think I'm getting some detail or other wrong.

*Unless you mean a character whose name was actually spelled Grendle, in which case I think you might be overestimating that character's name-recognition.

yea, so protagonist means "main character". Its rare but you do get evil or wicked protagonists. I think its a fair assumption that the Evil party that popped in on Dead Roy where protagonists of their own campaign or whatever.

IMO you can essentially see him saying "You are a protagonist" as "You are a PC and not some loser NPC whos name no one will even ask"

I feel that Tarquinn doesnt fully understand his son and may be overestimating his ability to manipulate him. But i'm not going to be suprised if he knows more than we think he does

We will see

[fractal]

Ah, yes. Grendel* was the protagonist of the epic poem Grendel, in which he fought Beowulf.

Wait a minute, I think I'm getting some detail or other wrong.

*Unless you mean a character whose name was actually spelled Grendle, in which case I think you might be overestimating that character's name-recognition.
Perhaps he's referring to the novel "Grendel", which puts the monster in the role of protagonist, forced to put up with xenophobic and violent humans until his patience runs out.

[Zmflavius]

yea, so protagonist means "main character". Its rare but you do get evil or wicked protagonists. I think its a fair assumption that the Evil party that popped in on Dead Roy where protagonists of their own campaign or whatever.

IMO you can essentially see him saying "You are a protagonist" as "You are a PC and not some loser NPC whos name no one will even ask"

I feel that Tarquinn doesnt fully understand his son and may be overestimating his ability to manipulate him. But i'm not going to be suprised if he knows more than we think he does

We will see

Yeah, but if you're referring to the character who fought Beowulf, he was never a protagonist; his role was as an antagonist, since antagonists possess similar traits to protagonists, but tend to oppose the main character (and title characters have a habit of being main characters.

edit: ack, just noticed the post before me about the novel Grendel. Huh, I didn't know that.

[Shale]

I would like to point out that Grendel was, in fact, the protagonist of John Gardner's classic novel, Grendel.

Edit: Hello, ninjas!

[Kish]

Turning off the sarcasm for just a moment: Grendel was created to be an antagonist. The novel's main point was "look at the antagonist's point of view." That's not to say protagonists can't be evil, but Tarquin asked Elan if he'd defeated any villains. If you're betting that he thinks Elan is an evil protagonist who will fall under his sway despite his greater narrative impetus due to being a protagonist, well...I'll take that bet.

[Stmr5000]

I'm not sure if it was a surprise round, though, judging from Tarquin's reaction. :smallsmile:



Well, not to split hairs, but if you look at Tarquin's face in that panel, I would say it was a surprise. He expected nice ambassador lady to be annoyed at him, he didn't expect her in that round, with that sword, behind that door. Hence, surprise round.

[megabyter5]

"The Empire of Tears are at the gate! We need reinforcements!"
"There are none! Soldiers from the Empire of Blood have arrived! It's a massacre!"
"What?! How'd they get into the city? It would've taken some sort of tactical genius to-

...TAAAAARRRRQUIIIIIINN!"

[turkishproverb]

I love Tarquin so much right now. Always nice to see affible evil.


...

I dug out my account just to post that? Oh, well. Worth it.:roach:

[Scarlet Knight]

Of course Grendel was a pro. He lost his amateur tangonist status early & was undefeated until, what? 998? :smallwink:

[Sengoku]

Nope, not me. I missed it. I thought he was negotiating in good faith. I was wrong. Rich Burlew tricks me again.

Man, I'm glad I'm not a player at his table. I'd have to carry a whole binder full of character sheets.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I missed it, too (I don't think it was obvious...now we know Tarquin helped the EoT instead of a free city, but it just tells us which side he was allied with, there was no real logical way to know which one previously).

Tarquin is really a well-made character, I'm rooting for him :).

I think he must have reasons not to worry about Elan's reaction, for that is all he cares about within the OotS.

I'm curious and eager to see what happens next.

Despite his hate for every kind of metagaming, I really think I would have liked to play at the table where Rich DMed, there is nothing like being able to create good characters.

[amy22]

For the last several strips I've been wondering if Elan is for some reason faking his obliviousness. Perhaps to keep Tarquin off-guard while Roy and Belkar are in prison, or to keep him distracted while Haley and V break out slaves. Any thoughts in response?

[Marnath]

For the last several strips I've been wondering if Elan is for some reason faking his obliviousness. Perhaps to keep Tarquin off-guard while Roy and Belkar are in prison, or to keep him distracted while Haley and V break out slaves. Any thoughts in response?

I'm not sure he's capable of deception on that level. I don't buy that theory.

[tcrudisi]

Of course, I'm pretty sure most of us called it, so that's probably not saying much. :smallwink:

I'm pretty sure most people didn't call it. I fully expected Tarquin to betray the city. I just did not expect him to capture it for the EoT instead of the EoB. I mean, how many of you claiming to have called it really expected the betrayal to be that Tarquin would help out his rivals by capturing a city for them?

If you can claim that, then you can raise your hand. I certainly can't claim that.
Yo dawg, I heard you like curveballs, so I threw a curveball on that curveball so you can be wrong while claiming you're right.
(Note: Not really Rich's quote, obviously.)

[Grommen]

what if the EoB joins the EoT? Super empire!

The Empire of Blood, Sweet, and Tear. We don't see this coming?

I mean the empress of Blood is a tool. Tarquin can bump off anytime he wants. Perhaps the other rulers are equal tools. Now Tarquin....No fool. Even has dramatic sense. He has a plan. He is Lawful Ausome.

Elan knows. Elan is frowning in that last panel.

Now another question. What is his setting Elan up for. Waves Haley off. Tells his son it's something dramatically kool. And then the title "He dodged an arrow (bullet) with that one?"

He was useing his son as bate?

That stinken evil awesome bastage!

[blackjack217]

I just realized elan asked if they had a spat, which means he is somewhat more aware than it was implied earlier

[Weiser_Cain]

I'd like an apology from all you guys defending Tarquin's taking advantage of the ambassador a few strips back.

[Petrocorus]

Can someone explain me the title, i don't get the joke.


The Empires of Blood, Tears, Sweat. Is there a reference to Churchill?


And i concur with those who think Tarquin want Tears to fight Sweat.

[Shale]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_sweat_and_tears

The title is a riff on the phrase "dodging a bullet" to mean narrowly avoiding a potentially very bad situation. Tarquin dodged his when the ambassador failed to realize his scheme in time.

[Marnath]

I'd like an apology from all you guys defending Tarquin's taking advantage of the ambassador a few strips back.

I don't remember being one of those guys, but I apologise anyway in case I did. :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_sweat_and_tears

Or, alternatively (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_Sweat_%26_Tears). :smallwink:

[The MunchKING]

I don't really understand the title.

"Dodged a bullet" is the modern saying which means "avoided an undesireable outcome". Tarquin "Dodged the arrow" by not having the girl find out until AFTER he sexxed her up and possibly got a marrage proposal out of the deal.


One thing to keep in mind- Tarquin referred to Elan as a "protagonist." It's not traditional for protagonists to fall under the sway of their evil fathers. Either Tarquin's overlooking a ton of dramatic convention, or he's pretty sure he can move faster than the speed of plot.

I'm betting on the latter. He look like he can manipulate the game.

[The MunchKING]

So Tarqin just bold face admitted to making an unprovoked attack on a different state after say he'd support them.

But like he said, he DIDN'T say that he'd support them. She just assumed that, presumably because she was desperate.

[Shale]

That's bull**** and he knows it. "Sleep with me and I'll agree to send 500 troops" doesn't carry the implication of "...to kill you and all your countrymen" unless you am talk like Bizarro.

[Nimrod's Son]

I love how the helmets of the Empire of Tears' soldiers have sad-eyes.

[Zmflavius]

That's bull**** and he knows it. "Sleep with me and I'll agree to send 500 troops" doesn't carry the implication of "...to kill you and all your countrymen" unless you am talk like Bizarro.

It certainly doesn't carry the implication of it, but Tarquin's words were just ambiguous enough to fit that implication, if he so desired. Of course, because Amun-zora trusted him, she interpreted his words as "to save my city" and not as "betray my city."

Not that I'm saying that trusting Tarquin was particularly intelligent on her part.

[The MunchKING]

That's bull**** and he knows it. "Sleep with me and I'll agree to send 500 troops" doesn't carry the implication of "...to kill you and all your countrymen" unless you am talk like Bizarro.

Ah but he's not responcable for what he implies. Only what he says.

It's totally lawful.

[The MunchKING]

It certainly doesn't carry the implication of it, but Tarquin's words were just ambiguous enough to fit that implication, if he so desired. Of course, because Amun-zora trusted him, she interpreted his words as "to save my city" and not as "betray my city."

Not that I'm saying that trusting Tarquin was particularly intelligent on her part.

Like I said, i think she was desperate. The empire of Blood was probably the only one close enough and powerful enough to help.

[Zmflavius]

Like I said, i think she was desperate. The empire of Blood was probably the only one close enough and powerful enough to help.

Well actually, so was the Empire of Sweat.

[Shale]

No, no, no. Not because of the wording, because of the "Give me X and I'll do Y" arrangement. If I arrive at a contract with you and in the execution of that deal I give you something, I naturally expect to be given something of value in return (or have some action performed on my behalf) - not because of the specific legalese wording of the particular agreement, but because that's how civilization works.

So no, it's not Lawful, any more than it would be Lawful to open a shop that sells knives and then stab your customers in the eye after they pay. Legalese justification for a Chaotic end (arranging a deal with the specific intent of breaking it) = Neutral-to-Chaotic.

[Marnath]

So no, it's not Lawful, any more than it would be Lawful to open a shop that sells knives and then stab your customers in the eye after they pay. Legalese justification for a Chaotic end (arranging a deal with the specific intent of breaking it) = Neutral-to-Chaotic.

It's perfectly lawful. Lawful Evil is all about abusing loopholes for personal gain.

[The MunchKING]

Well actually, so was the Empire of Sweat.

We know nothing about the military power of Sweat.

And those deserts are pretty big. I'd have to go back to the map comic to see if they were equidistant.

[Zmflavius]

No, no, no. Not because of the wording, because of the "Give me X and I'll do Y" arrangement. If I arrive at a contract with you and in the execution of that deal I give you something, I naturally expect to be given something of value in return (or have some action performed on my behalf) - not because of the specific legalese wording of the particular agreement, but because that's how civilization works.

So no, it's not Lawful, any more than it would be Lawful to open a shop that sells knives and then stab your customers in the eye after they pay. Legalese justification for a Chaotic end (arranging a deal with the specific intent of breaking it) = Neutral-to-Chaotic.

My experience in DnD is fairly limited, so I don't know much about alignments, though admittedly, yes, put that way, Tarquin's actions were decidedly chaotic, given that my sum knowledge of Chaotic lies in Belkar saying that Lord Shojo, who is chaotic good, is probably smoking cigars wrapped around poorly-worded legal documents. Though it's my impression that if Tarquin was Lawful Evil, you could justify that under the Evil bit. And if Roy's evaluation in the afterlife is anything to go by, characters don't strictly bind themselves to their proclaimed alignments, given that the afterlife people go through evaluating people on how well they played their alignment.

edit: ninja'ed

[Shale]

I'm thinking of the judging scene too, actually - specifically, the part where Roy tricking his allies into helping him do what he wanted to do was deemed chaotic. Is the fact that Tarquin used a strongly implied lie that kinda parses as truth if you squint and ignore all context instead of an outright falsehood enough to flip the alignment of the act a hundred an eighty degrees? I say no.

[Nimrod's Son]

That's bull**** and he knows it. "Sleep with me and I'll agree to send 500 troops" doesn't carry the implication of "...to kill you and all your countrymen" unless you am talk like Bizarro.
Tarquin said no such thing. He'd already dispatched the dragoons before he even started trying to get Amun-Zora into bed. It's not Tarquin's fault that she got the wrong end of the stick and then decided to form a "different kind of alliance" with him, at least in his eyes.

He even said to her that thanking him was not necessary. At no point was sleeping with him included in any "bargain"; it was just something that happened. Whether or not Amun-Zora felt she had to do it to please him is immaterial, because at no point did he say as much.

[Marnath]

I'm thinking of the judging scene too, actually - specifically, the part where Roy tricking his allies into helping him do what he wanted to do was deemed chaotic. Is the fact that Tarquin used a strongly implied lie that kinda parses as truth if you squint and ignore all context instead of an outright falsehood enough to flip the alignment of the act a hundred an eighty degrees? I say no.

The difference, I suppose is that Roy was flat out lying, and Tarquin technically spoke only the truth.

[Shale]

The "dalliance" isn't irrelevant to the deal - without Amun-Zora vouching for the supposed alliance between Blood and Doom, Tarquin's dragoons are just another 500 soldiers standing around outside the city walls waiting for something to happen. He needed them to be taken into the city by people who knew the secret entrance, thus tricking Amun-Zora into an "alliance."

Also, Tarquin called it an "alliance," so yeah, flat-out lying even if you somehow believe that my stab-you-in-the-face store (I'll make millions!) is lawful.

[Marnath]

Also, Tarquin called it an "alliance," so yeah, flat-out lying even if you somehow believe that my stab-you-in-the-face store (I'll make millions!) is lawful.

Wrong. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) She calls it an alliance, and he doesn't correct her. Then he points out there are many ways of sealing alliances, which is NOT the same as calling what he has done an act of alliance. It's a subtle, yet important distinction.

[Nimrod's Son]

Also, Tarquin called it an "alliance," so yeah, flat-out lying even if you somehow believe that my stab-you-in-the-face store (I'll make millions!) is lawful.
He never said they had an existing alliance between them. He said, "There are other ways to seal alliances". That may well imply an existing alliance, but in no way does it outright state it. Tarquin's behaviour throughout these events is the absolute epitome of Lawful Evil from where I'm standing.

[Quorothorn]

Based on another thread and some earlier dialogue, they seem to be:
Scalya, Fiendland, Cruelvania, Fangland
Dictatoria, ??, T.B.D., Evilopia
Empire of Blood, Reptilia
Empire of Sweat, Free City of Doom, Empire of Tears
The Coastly Coast, West Despotonia, East Despotonia, Sandsedge
The Dark Republic, People's Democratic Dictatorship

?? and T.B.D. were the only ones confirmed by the Giant. (The only one I have my doubts about is the Coastly Coast; yes, it fits with names like Sunken Valley, but still.)

Thanks. :smallsmile:


Well, not to split hairs, but if you look at Tarquin's face in that panel, I would say it was a surprise. He expected nice ambassador lady to be annoyed at him, he didn't expect her in that round, with that sword, behind that door. Hence, surprise round.

Fair point, but I think the fact that he actively moved out of the way of the strike suggests he kept his DEX bonus.

[The MunchKING]

Dang it, Ninja'd twice in the time it took me to look it up.

[Shale]

Deliberate deception is a chaotic act, and there's more to being Lawful, no matter than moral stripe, than word games.

To go back to the judgment scene: If Roy had said "from what I heard, there could be king giants there", because forests are an environment where giants appear and he once heard of giants with royalty, do you really think he'd be let off for the Chaotic-means-to-Lawful-ends assessment?

[Querzis]

No, no, no. Not because of the wording, because of the "Give me X and I'll do Y" arrangement. If I arrive at a contract with you and in the execution of that deal I give you something, I naturally expect to be given something of value in return (or have some action performed on my behalf) - not because of the specific legalese wording of the particular agreement, but because that's how civilization works.

...'give me X and I'll do Y'? When the hell did Tarquin say that. Tarquin never, at absolutely no point, had any arrangement or contract with her. He was just planning to send 500 troops to help the Empire of Tears before he even met the ambassador at that dinner and he let her assume what she wanted to assume. It was most likely part of his plan of course, it was the only way for him to get the city of Doom to let them enter.

Once again, as many people told you, the whole point of being lawful is that you abuse loophole because chaotic people wont even care about loophole and will just ignore the deal entirely if they dont wanna do it. Evil yeah, definitly not chaotic, in fact, hes trying very hard to still fit the lawful part of his alignement. He never even freaking lied until now and I'd expect a lawful evil guy to have to lie at some point because of the evil part but he manage to do it.

By the way, to those who said the people from the free city of Doom were stupid for trusting the Empire of Blood, please remember how desperate they were. The ambassador said herself that they were starving. The battle was pretty much already won, its just an easy new alliance for Tarquin (and I also agree with Kish, he probably did this to be able to join the empire of Tears if the empire of Blood falls).


Deliberate deception is a chaotic act, and there's more to being Lawful, no matter than moral stripe, than word games.

The definition of deception is : «a misleading falsehood». There was nothing false so there was no deception (not that I agree that deception is always chaotic mind you, but Tarquin didnt do that anyway).

[snikrept]

So... the whole time he was worrying that Amun-Zora would discover his plot, he was also referring to her as his next wife. Clearly he still thinks that way since he anticipated this reaction from her.

Waiting to see what he's got up his sleeve to get her back on his team and/or blackmail her ....

[Shale]

Once again: You ask me for a knife. I agree to sell you one. We haggle, if only through innuendo, over a price. You pay. I stab you in the face and walk away, leaving the knife behind.

If you don't think I lied, consult a dictionary.

Incidentally: Lie. n. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture.

[The MunchKING]

Once again: You ask me for a knife. I agree to sell you one. We haggle, if only through innuendo, over a price. You pay. I stab you in the face and walk away, leaving the knife behind.

If you don't think I lied, consult a dictionary.

You DID in fact give me a knife.

But the point was there wasn't any haggling on screen. She said "I must talk to you" and He's all 'I already sent 500 Dragoons". He never specifically said he was going to ally with her or hers. So your metaphor is flawed.

EDIT: A closer metaphor would be if I walked in your store and asked you about the knives and you said you already gave sent one to my house, negelecting to mention it was in the body of a significant other. No lies, just ommited data.

[Felhammer]

Once again: You ask me for a knife. I agree to sell you one. We haggle, if only through innuendo, over a price. You pay. I stab you in the face and walk away, leaving the knife behind.

If you don't think I lied, consult a dictionary.

Incidentally: Lie. n. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture.

But you didn't lie - I bought a knife from you. :smallbiggrin:

[Marnath]

Once again: You ask me for a knife. I agree to sell you one. We haggle, if only through innuendo, over a price. You pay. I stab you in the face and walk away, leaving the knife behind.

If you don't think I lied, consult a dictionary.

This is not a proper analogy for the situation. More like I already was holding a knife, you assume I mean to gift it to you, and I do nothing to change your mind. You walk up and I stab you, which is what I was going to do all along. I never actually said it was a gift.

[Querzis]

Once again: You ask me for a knife. I agree to sell you one. We haggle, if only through innuendo, over a price. You pay. I stab you in the face and walk away, leaving the knife behind.

If you don't think I lied, consult a dictionary.

And if you think that your situation somewhat ressemble what Tarquin did, consult the comic. Tarquin never agreed to sell her one and never asked for a price. She just assumed he offered her one and thanked him for it. Tarquin simply did not contradict her.

[Shale]

Nope.

You need a knife. You see me holding a knife. You ask for the knife, and I say that I'd be glad to give it to you; you ask what it will cost, and I respond that a fair price would be a hundred dollars. You hand over money, I stab.

No meaningful difference from the first version aside from not taking place in a shop. I never explicitly said I wouldn't murder you! I never explicitly said I was selling you the knife! But I deliberately created that impression to the point where precise word choice becomes a meaningless game. The only way that's Lawful is if it's part of some larger code-of-conduct Tarquin adheres to that we haven't seen yet - on its face it's deception of the same kind that Roy was admonished for by a celestial judge of what is and isn't Law.

Oh, and if you don't think Tarquin's asking for a price in that comic, you're crazy.

[Querzis]

Nope.

You need a knife. You see me holding a knife. You ask for the knife, and I say that I'd be glad to give it to you; you ask what it will cost, and I respond that a fair price would be a hundred dollars. You hand over money, I stab.

No meaningful difference from the first version aside from not taking place in a shop.

Oh, and if you don't think Tarquin's asking for a price in that comic, you're crazy.

Then everyone else then you is crazy cause nobody else is seeing what you're seeing. You can argue all you want but, instead of telling other people they are crazy, how about you find one quote from the comic which actually support your theory?

[Marnath]

Oh, and if you don't think Tarquin's asking for a price in that comic, you're crazy.

You are mistaken. There is nothing in that comic that can be construed as him asking a price.

*edit: Go look again, she says " I don't know how I can begin to properly thank you for your deeds."

[StClair]

*raises hand to be counted*

And yes, IMO, Lawful Evil is all about following the letter of the law while twisting and exploiting the hell out of it. See also the not-so-dear disintegrated departed Lord Kubota.

[Shale]

*edit: Go look again, she says " I don't know how I can begin to properly thank you for your deeds."

Translation: "What do you want from me in exchange?" And his response is "Sex."

What I'm trying to get at is: The measure of "keeping your word" is not whether your actions agree with how a computer program armed with a comprehensive English dictionary would parse your sentences. It's how a human being does.

[Marnath]

Translation: "What do you want from me in exchange?" And his response is "Sex."

I don't think that's even close to what her subtext was there. I think she knew exactly how she wanted to thank him. :smallwink:


What I'm trying to get at is: The measure of "keeping your word" is not whether your actions agree with how a computer program armed with a comprehensive English dictionary would parse your sentences. It's how a human being does.

I'm a computer now, eh?

[Querzis]

Translation: "What do you want from me in exchange?" And his response is "Sex."

Or, instead of putting words in the mouth of characters who never said anything like that, you could simply say: Translation: «I don't know how I can begin to properly thank you for your deeds» and his response is: «No need my dear.»


What I'm trying to get at is: The measure of "keeping your word" is not whether your actions agree with how a computer program armed with a comprehensive English dictionary would parse your sentences. It's how a human being does.

Look man, theres a reason why the Lawful Neutral plane is Mechanus while Chaos got a realm called the Beastland. Yes, the whole point of being Lawful is that you are closer to a logical computer then the average human and the whole point of being chaotic is that you are closer to an instinctive beast then the average human. If its true from a computer program point of view, its true from a lawful point of view. Chaos go with instinct and feelings, Law go with words and logic, both of which Tarquin perfectly respected.

[Shale]

Diplomacy is always quid pro quo. That was a transaction. I'd wager it was no accident the Free City of Doom sent a woman to negotiate with the nine-times-a-widower general, for that matter.

Try thinking about it this way. Imagine Tarquin was a hero trying to liberate the horribly oppressed people of the Free City of Doom. He chose to get inside by bedding a female general of Doom, responding to her requests for military aid against the oncoming hordes of Good with enthusiasm and sympathy for the plight of her great city, but never quite saying "I promise to help you defeat your enemies," and then mocks her when she figures out the trick. Is that closer to Roy/Durkon or Haley/Elan?

[Marnath]

Diplomacy is always quid pro quo. That was a transaction. I'd wager it was no accident the Free City of Doom sent a woman to negotiate with the nine-times-a-widower general, for that matter.

Try thinking about it this way. Imagine Tarquin was a hero trying to liberate the horribly oppressed people of the Free City of Doom. He chose to get inside by bedding a female general of Doom, responding to her requests for military aid against the oncoming hordes of Good with enthusiasm and sympathy for the plight of her great city, but never quite saying "I promise to help you defeat your enemies," and then mocks her when she figures out the trick. Is that closer to Roy/Durkon or Haley/Elan?

Again, your analogy is flawed. The troops had bent sent before he told her, and she is the one who assumed it was help. They didn't "negotiate."

[Querzis]

Diplomacy is always quid pro quo. That was a transaction. I'd wager it was no accident the Free City of Doom sent a woman to negotiate with the nine-times-a-widower general, for that matter.

Try thinking about it this way. Imagine Tarquin was a hero trying to liberate the horribly oppressed people of the Free City of Doom. He chose to get inside by bedding a female general of Doom, responding to her requests for military aid against the oncoming hordes of Good with enthusiasm and sympathy for the plight of her great city, but never quite saying "I promise to help you defeat your enemies," and then mocks her when she figures out the trick. Is that closer to Roy/Durkon or Haley/Elan?

Its closer to Belkar. Its an evil attitude, or at the very least neutral but close to evil. You really gotta stop confusing Chaos and Evil.

[Shale]

Right back at you. Barring personal codes of conduct, what's chaotic for a good person is chaotic for an evil one. Trickery and deception are chaotic, not evil.

[Hithros]

...well, that was a great reminder than Tarquin is an actively evil person.

[Querzis]

Right back at you. Barring personal codes of conduct, what's chaotic for a good person is chaotic for an evil one. Trickery and deception are chaotic, not evil.

Firstly, no not always, it mostly depends on the situation. Secondly, as everyone as been telling you for two pages, Tarquin didnt even need to use deception or trickery.

[Marnath]

Right back at you. Barring personal codes of conduct, what's chaotic for a good person is chaotic for an evil one. Trickery and deception are chaotic, not evil.

You keep saying that. He is not deceiving anyone, he is telling the truth and letting her come to wrong conclusions.

[Shale]

Uh....yes. He did. He carefully tricked what's-her-name into believing a falsehood so she would let his troops inside the city. No permission to enter, no Trojan Horse gambit. The fact that he played a word game in the process doesn't change the fact that he lied by the plain meaning of the term. (Again: Lie. n. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture.)

[Marnath]

Uh....yes. He did. He carefully tricked what's-her-name into believing a falsehood so she would let his troops inside the city. No permission to enter, no Trojan Horse gambit. The fact that he played a word game in the process doesn't change the fact that he lied by the plain meaning of the term.

No he didn't. He did not trick her at all. He NEVER said the troops were going to be there to help her.

[Shale]

"Here I was worried all night that you were going to figure it out early."

Figure out what? Certainly not the trick he pulled on her, because he was being honest and forthright, and was only misinterpreted by cruel fate!

Or, he intentionally conveyed the false impression that he was helping the City of Doom, which is the dictionary definition of a lie.

Which is more likely?

[Querzis]

Uh....yes. He did. He carefully tricked what's-her-name into believing a falsehood so she would let his troops inside the city. No permission to enter, no Trojan Horse gambit. The fact that he played a word game in the process doesn't change the fact that he lied by the plain meaning of the term.

...who are you even trying to convince at that point? As I already told you, cant you just find one freaking quote from the comic that support your theory instead of using incredibly flawed analogy? You know, you arent gonna win this argument just by annoying everyone by repeating the same line that absolutely nobody else then you believe in until we stop arguing with you.


"Here I was worried all night that you were going to figure it out early."

Edit: ...seriously? Did you get Miko feats that allow you to jump to conclusion? Once again, he just didnt contradict her! He was afraid that she would realize that he never, at absolutely no point, promised to help her. Thats the whole freaking point, that line prove that he intentionally didnt deceive her because it would go against his lawful alignement. Despite the fact that he thought it was obvious and that she would understand before he got to sleep with her, he still didnt outright lie to her even if he could have(and it would have made things easier too)! Geez, how the hell are you trying to take a line that prove he didnt lie to her and turn it around?

[Shale]

What impression was he trying to create, then? I'm honestly curious now: how else can you read that scene but deception on Tarquin's part? What other outcome could he possibly be trying to create?

[Marnath]

"Here I was worried all night that you were going to figure it out early."

Figure out what? Certainly not the trick he pulled on her, because he was being honest and forthright, and was only misinterpreted by cruel fate!

Or, he intentionally conveyed the false impression that he was helping the City of Doom, which is the dictionary definition of a lie.

Which is more likely?

Neither. The thing she was gonna figure out is that SHE was wrong.

*edit:
What impression was he trying to create, then? I'm honestly curious now: how else can you read that scene but deception on Tarquin's part? What other outcome could he possibly be trying to create?

Panel 8. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) The thing she's supposed to realize is that he's doing it for himself, not her just like she herself suggested he do.

[silvadel]

The difference, I suppose is that Roy was flat out lying, and Tarquin technically spoke only the truth.

Technically -- the best kind of truth...

(Central Beurocracy -- new new york, futurama)

[binyamin20]

Well, looks like many people were right about Tarquin sending the dragoons to help the other side.

Well' it was obvius.

[Querzis]

What impression was he trying to create, then? I'm honestly curious now: how else can you read that scene but deception on Tarquin's part? What other outcome could he possibly be trying to create?

Once again, the Law is a computer, the Chaos is a wild beast. Beast go with impression, not freaking computer. If you are saying he betrayed her with an impression, its the proof that he never went against his lawful alignement, despite the fact that, once again, it would have made things much easier for him to do so and just outright lie to her.

[Shale]

Panel 8. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) The thing she's supposed to realize is that he's doing it for himself, not her just like she herself suggested he do.

The problem is that, as we saw in both that comic and today's, that would get him nothing. The Free City of Doom is besieged, and nearly spent - before the siege ends, the exact number of troops camped outside is irrelevant because they're not doing anything. After it ends, the populace is starved and materiel is nearly gone, so extra troops matter very little. As we see in #756, Tarquin's endgame was to get those troops inside the city through a secret entrance in order to win the siege immediately. Accomplishing that required the active help of General Whatsherface's troops. No "alliance," no entry. No entry, no point to any of this.

[Marnath]

The problem is that, as we saw in both that comic and today's, that would get him nothing. The Free City of Doom is besieged, and nearly spent - before the siege ends, the exact number of troops camped outside is irrelevant because they're not doing anything. After it ends, the populace is starved and materiel is nearly gone, so extra troops matter very little. As we see in #756, Tarquin's endgame was to get those troops inside the city through a secret entrance in order to win the siege immediately. Accomplishing that required the active help of General Whatsherface's troops. No "alliance," no entry. No entry, no point to any of this.

Good for Tarquin then, that the ambassador told her people his troops were friendly, yes? Even better that he didn't need to lift a finger to get that to happen.

*edit: And of course he gains nothing from the city. What he gains is friendship with a serious national threat.

[Querzis]

The problem is that, as we saw in both that comic and today's, that would get him nothing. The Free City of Doom is besieged, and nearly spent - before the siege ends, the exact number of troops camped outside is irrelevant because they're not doing anything. After it ends, the populace is starved and materiel is nearly gone, so extra troops matter very little. As we see in #756, Tarquin's endgame was to get those troops inside the city through a secret entrance in order to win the siege immediately. Accomplishing that required the active help of General Whatsherface's troops. No "alliance," no entry. No entry, no point to any of this.

...yes we know. I already said that one page ago, in my very first post in this thread. I really dont get how this is supposed to contradict anything we said.

[Indalecio]

Whats interesting, is that this exchange could have a good, or more likely neutral result. The citizens of the Free City of Doom were starving. Now that the siege is broken, there is a greater chance for them to get food now.

Some possible results.

* The FCoD was a center of trade. Now that the EoT is in control, they try to get it profitable again so that they can start paying tribute.
* The FCoD has access to some sort of resource. The citizens are put to slavery to gather that resource.
* The FCoD is viewed as a lost cause, or the EoTs had no really interest in the city and only attacked it because it was a meeting place for EoT insurgents. The city is razed and the inhabitants are taken into slavery.

Or any variations thereof.

[Porthos]

Lying by Omission: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission#Lying_by_omission)


Lying by omission
One lies by omission by omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. An example is when the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service. Propaganda is an example of lying by omission.

Seems to fit the bill for me.

EDIT::: Now whether or not it is lawful to lie by omission is another kettle of fish. :smallwink: After all, we have seen several characters Lie by Omission before. O-Chul being a notable example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).

On the other hand, that might not be a gross violation of the Paladin Code, so it might not be much evidence either. :smalltongue:

[Marnath]

Durkon is also someone who has done this. link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html) I don't think anyone is going to argue he or O-Chul are not lawful.

[Degnared]

And there's Durkon's technical honesty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html) to Miko.

Not that I think Lawfulness necessitates honesty, and certainly not forthrightness. Tarquin is definitely holding to some code of conduct here, and it's clearly shaded by Evil.

[Porthos]

Durkon is also someone who has done this. link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0732.html) I don't think anyone is going to argue he or O-Chul are not lawful.

Yes, but a lawful character doesn't have to be lawful all of the time.

Even a paladin doesn't have to be lawful every second of the day. So if they commit a neutral or chaotic act now and again, it's not going to hit their alignment.

On the other hand, if Durkon made a habit of lying by omission, it'd probably get him into trouble eventually in the afterlife.

On the other other hand, maybe that's because lawful good people shouldn't be deceiving people all of the time (which is what lying by omission is). A lawful evil person, however, probably doesn't think that deception is all that bad.

Regardless, let's not mince words here. Tarquin deceived and lied. It's just that very well might be Lawful Evil behavior when it is done right. :smallwink:

[Querzis]

Yes, but a lawful character doesn't have to be lawful all of the time.

Even a paladin doesn't have to be lawful every second of the day. So if they commit a neutral or chaotic act now and again, it's not going to hit their alignment.

On the other hand, if Durkon made a habit of lying by omission, it'd probably get him into trouble eventually in the afterlife.

On the other other hand, maybe that's because lawful good people shouldn't be deceiving people all of the time (which is what lying by omission is). A lawful evil person, however, probably doesn't think that deception is all that bad.

Regardless, let's not mince words here. Tarquin deceived and lied. It's just that very well might be Lawful Evil behavior when it is done right. :smallwink:

...you might have wanted to read the whole page. Just under there is «Noble lie
A noble lie is one that would normally cause discord if uncovered, but offers some benefit to the liar and assists in an orderly society, therefore, potentially beneficial to others. It is often told to maintain law, order and safety.»

Its not just «a lawful character can lie sometime» its « a lawful character should lie sometimes». There are some lie that benefit absolutely nothing else then Law or Order and there are sometimes a lawful character is more likely to lie then a chaotic one. All of their «lies» (if you wanna call them that cause theres no way I'm calling lying by omission a lie) were lawful lies. As I already said, it all depends on the situation.

Anyway, I kinda assume you understood perfectly what we meant so why did you even link that? We were talking about outright lie not «lying by omission». Technically, almost everything you dont say at any time in your life is lying by omission so I really never got the point of that expression. She deceived herself, Tarquin didnt have to do anything.

[Marnath]

I think it's more accurate to say that Tarquin allowed her to deceive herself. But I'm done arguing it, since it passed beyond relevance some time ago.

*edit: yeah, what Querzis said.

[DrGonzo]

I'm disliking Tarquin more and more.


*intelligent evil Elan is scary*

[Porthos]

Anyway, I kinda assume you understood perfectly what we meant so why did you even link that? We were talking about outright lie not «lying by omission».

I linked it because Lying by Omission is just as "bad" as "real" lying. The point of Lying by Omission is that it is used to decieve someone.

Technically, almost everything you dont say at any time in your life is lying by omission so I really never got the point of that expression.
No, it isn't. Unless you are purposefully trying to deceive someone every time you talk to them.

...

And if you are, I don't want to know. :smalltongue:

Regardless, Lying by Omission is simply another type of lie. Whether or not it is justifiable to lie is an entirely separate argument.



I think it's more accurate to say that Tarquin allowed her to deceive herself.

Which is exactly what lying by omission is. :smallamused:


But I'm done arguing it, since it passed beyond relevance some time ago.

Fair enuf. Just wanted to point out that it is reasonable to say that Tarquin lied there.

Of course, if one doesn't believe that lying by omission is lying.... Well, as you said, I guess there's nothing else to discuss. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

Given that in one of the bonus strips to War & XPs, two paladins lied outright to Miko and then said "It's not a gross violation" that strongly suggests that in the OoTS world, lying might be dubious, but not necessarily dubious enough for paladins to fall for doing so.

Deception has been done by paladins in D&D novels before- in Azure Bonds, the paladin Dragonbait allows the being he's guarding to think he's a fairly stupid lizard-being, does not let anyone know he's a paladin, and when healing fellow party members, does so subtly enough that they don't notice, and think "maybe I wasn't as hurt as I thought".

So, a case can be made that "lying" in the paladin's code, excludes lies of omission.

[Killer Angel]

Ah, Tarquin, you magnificent B. :smallcool:
You are right, it was too obvious, but often, the simplest things are the ones that work better... :smallbiggrin:

[rakkoon]

Graceful, confrontation ahead, exposition is over, let's get this party started!

[hamishspence]

Of course, if one doesn't believe that lying by omission is lying.... Well, as you said, I guess there's nothing else to discuss. :smallwink:

There's a great quote on Bluffing in the D&D novel Tymora's Luck:

Paladin: "They say that a lot of creatures in Gehenna bluff their way to power. You just have to bluff better than they do"

Fighter: "Bluffing? Isn't that like lying? Are paladins allowed to do that?"

Paladin: "Really, your notions of paladins are so old-fashioned. We're honest, not stupid. If some evil creature is prepared to believe I'm more powerful than he is, why should I disabuse him of the notion?"

[HandofShadows]

I wonder if Tarquin planned this? He KNOWS Elan is a protagonist. And he stated that one way or another he was going to change the EoT.

[Kurald Galain]

As the saying goes, "a half truth is a whole lie". Generally, when someone feels you've deceived them, they won't feel any less angry if you can point to a technicality.

Anyway, we don't know what exactly Tarquin has or hasn't negotiated with Zora, because they've been off-panel together for a long time.

[Roland Itiative]

Loved the comic, all of it. From Tarkin's plan, to his evilish grin when Elan defended him. And it looks like Elan just broke out of his fantasy world, he doesn't look very happy in the last two panels...

And I seriously thought something was strange in the way Haley was drawn the moment I saw it, but then I remembered she got her ponytail back... I guess that'll take some getting used to :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

As the saying goes, "a half truth is a whole lie". Generally, when someone feels you've deceived them, they won't feel any less angry if you can point to a technicality.

True- but the combination of Cannot Tell a Lie and "deceives a lot" is pretty common.

That said, Tarquin can probably tell lies as well- being Lawful doesn't stop you from doing that. There is an Archdevil in D&D whose followers actually specialize in this- Baalzebul, Lord of the Flies, Lord of the Lies.

[pjackson]

Tarquin decieved the ambasador, but it did it by following the rule of never saying anything that was not true.
Following rules is Lawful.
His actions were also Evil.
He took advantage of the ambassadors desperation/stupidity.

Certainly he was not honest, but honesty is Lawful Good ideal.

[hamishspence]

Yup- I'm not saying that he lied here (though he deceived) but that lying might not automatically move him toward Chaotic.

Given that there is some precedent for Lawful beings sometimes being associated with lying (though it's rare).

[Caleniel]

Come on now!

Much entertaining as it (apparently) must be to continue the infinitely debate on theoretical and applied alignment systems, I think the MAJOR debate point is lost here! Or possibly, I missed it. But I did try to scroll through all seven pages(!) of comments, and safe to say it is not at the top of the discussion.

What was Tarquin about to say?

"My associates in the Prefecture informed me of a unique..."

Unique what? What was he about to offer / share with Elan? Maybe he has some of his son's sense of drama, and possibly he did expect Amun-Zora to appear, but still there must have been an intended end to that sentence?

Come on now, you are a creative bunch. Finish the sentence for me? Please? I can't come up with anything half decent myself... :-)

[TheBlackShadow]

Tarquin must be holding something back. Family relation or no family relation, there's no way he should look so smug about his evil deceptions being revealed right in front of a Chaotic Good protagonist.

There's more to this than meets the eye.


EDIT: The Empire of Tears' soldiers have helmets with T-shaped face-slits, like Tarquin's troops had in the flashbacks. Is this a clue, a coincidence, or a red herring? Also, could the surprise Tarquin had for Elan be something to do with Girard's Gate?

[Klose_the_Sith]

I loved the little pseudo-foreshadowing in this comic

Elan: "I love surprises! Except for the ones where you lose your dodge bonuses. Those ones suck."

Tarquin: "Too true. But this surprise will have none of that. My associates in the Prefecture informed me of a unique ..."

*Tarquin dodges several attacks*

It's little things like that which make me love OOTS oh so much.

One thought on the Blood/Tears/Doom ...

Look at the map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html). Notice how the Free City of Doom is surrounded by one enemy state and another probably hostile one? Notice how, if the Empire of Blood is now friendly with Tears, they surround Sweat?

Just my line of thinking :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

The Empire of Tears' soldiers have helmets with T-shaped face-slits, like Tarquin's troops had in the flashbacks. Is this a clue, a coincidence, or a red herring? Also, could the surprise Tarquin had for Elan be something to do with Girard's Gate?

I'm inclined to say coincidence- T- shaped face-slits are pretty common in fantasy art.

[Shale]

Oooh, good point. I was looking at it just in terms of the consequences of intertwining Blood and Tears, but I'd forgotten Sweat was that close.

[blackjack217]

tell that to asamodious

[Mr. Snuggles]

Size-wise, the Empire of Tears is right behind the Empire of Blood (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).
Yet another out-of-date map. You can remove the Free City of Doom and add the territory to the Weepies. Who knows what the map will look like by the time Elan & crew move on?

Although I am confused why Tarquin would just hand over territory to a rival empire who are known expansionists and with whom he shares a land border. Maybe going to defect to them? But he's already said Elan will take over the Empire of Blood.

"My associates in the Prefecture" can only mean the cops/arena guards. "informed me of a unique" means Enor? He's on the top because the Empress of Blood wants to meet a fellow saurian? Either that or it's Belkar or Roy, but I suppose they're not unique.

Captain Chick has some sort of new sword. Falchion?

I love the body language and the look on Tarquin's face when Elan defends him. You know he's thinking "We will rule the galaxy as father and son!" :smallcool: Too bad OOTS doesn't use thought bubbles. Or does it? I've really never thought about it before.

Funny that Tarquin isn't fazed in the least about what he's done. To him, it's perfectly natural. "You didn't even ask me which side my troops will join!" Laugh-out-loud obvious to a lawful evil bastard like him.

[Mr. Snuggles]

The Empire of Tears' soldiers have helmets with T-shaped face-slits, like Tarquin's troops had in the flashbacks. Is this a clue, a coincidence, or a red herring?
The helmet & mismatched boots combination means "fighter" in OOTS, just like "robe + holy symbol" means cleric, or "topknot" means monk, or whatnot. It's the comic's style.

[2-HeadedGiraffe]

To me, Elan looks clearly unhappy in the last two panels. I'm not sure exactly how to describe the expression, but I think he's at least having a reaction to directly hearing his father admit to his actions. I'd be surprised if this isn't at least the start of a turning point for his relationship to Tarquin.

Also, I would like to agree that lying can be lawful. The "Noble Lie" mentioned before certainly fits the bill. Lawful doesn't necessarily mean fair. Lawful Evil is all about deceiving, manipulating, etc. through lawful means.

[Blaznak]

Oooooh! The plot thickens...

[Burner28]

To me, Elan looks clearly unhappy in the last two panels. I'm not sure exactly how to describe the expression, but I think he's at least having a reaction to directly hearing his father admit to his actions. I'd be surprised if this isn't at least the start of a turning point for his relationship to Tarquin.

Also, I would like to agree that lying can be lawful. The "Noble Lie" mentioned before certainly fits the bill. Lawful doesn't necessarily mean fair. Lawful Evil is all about deceiving, manipulating, etc. through lawful means.

But as many people pointed out, Tarquin didn't lie at all back then, he just told the truth but in a way where it gave off a different impression. As Tarquin himself said "I offered to send my troops to join the battle. I never specified which side of the battle they would join

[pendell]

Think about it. Would you rather be allies of a small city, and enemies of a large empire, or the allies of a large empire, and the enemies of a now defeated small city.

You just have to think like an evil villan :smallamused:

I WAS thinking like an evil villain, and I'm thinking that rival large empires which border each other are NEVER friends. Parthia and Rome. Greece and Persia. An Evil Empire on my borders is something I must scheme against for advantage, and getting them in a proxy war against some small neighbor to divert their energies -- instead of invading MY territory -- fits the bill perfectly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[stopwatch]

I didn't exactly see this coming, but I'm not too surprised. I knew something was up. I don't think Elan's the kind to give in to the dark side, but maybe he'll still think his dad's a good person somehow or something. I don't mean to be mean, but this is Elan.

EDIT: Also, I noticed an ominous smile on the face of Elan's father's face on the square that Elan blocks the attack. You think maybe he planned the whole thing? (I'm referring to Elan protecting his father from the lady.)

[blackjack217]

Guys guys we can solve this debate by asking the epitome of evil and law, the devils lets take a look... *shudders* that was ... quite a lot of backstabbing wasn't it?

[Felhammer]

I really liked this comic. I just hope this turn of events does not ruin Roy's gladiatorial match!

[Leolo]

Question: Is the title related to haley? So that the arrow dodged would have been hers?

It would gave a little hint that tarquin has planned this.

[Shale]

I WAS thinking like an evil villain, and I'm thinking that rival large empires which border each other are NEVER friends. Parthia and Rome. Greece and Persia. An Evil Empire on my borders is something I must scheme against for advantage, and getting them in a proxy war against some small neighbor to divert their energies -- instead of invading MY territory -- fits the bill perfectly.


Yeah, but the calculus changes a bit when you KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that your empire is going to fall no matter what you do. If an alliance means the Empire of Blood sticks around for an extra year, and that Tarquin and Malack have more potential employers when it does go under, then it's the smart play for everybody.

Everybody except the people who'd die in a Blood-Tears War, of course, but hey, Evil.

[pendell]

I have one thing to say in this whole issue about lying:

Have any of you ever had to job-hunt when you left your previous position under less-than-auspicious circumstances?

Well, if you did, and you were ever employed again, it's because A) you didn't tell your employer the whole, complete, unvarnished truth in your interview and B) you didn't flat out lie to your employer.

Either of those two extremes means you won't be hired.

No, if you got hired again, it's because you learned all the little code phrases, the little circumlocutions, the little spoonfuls of sugar needed to communicate enough of the truth, but in such a way that it doesn't trigger all the hiring managers sensors at once.

I think we need more of a gradation than binary whole truth/whole lie. And yes, the world punishes an actual lie more severely than a partial truth. Very few people put EVERYTHING on their resume if for no other reason than to keep it turning into a book. I don't talk much about my Smalltalk experience because I don't want to work in that environment again. No one cares. But if I ever actually LIE -- directly fabricate -- on my resume, and am caught, I will never be hired. Ever.

Every major philosophy and religion teaches lying is wrong. Yet if you read the actual *lives* of many of those teachers, you'll find that they often told less than the full truth, whether that's sneaking out of town in a basket, or answering a question with a question, or going into full attack by pointing at some fault of the questioner while ignoring the original question, or by answering a question with a half-truth -- they were MASTERS at not telling the full, complete truth when they had to.

There's got to be a line drawn between impossible perfection and the abyss. And 'perfection' really is impossible, because by that standard the mere act of putting on clothes is a lie, covering up our more unsightly blemishes and making us appear more attractive than we are. Part of that, I think, comes from acknowledging that there's a continuum, a gradation, of deception. A half-truth is not the full truth, but it isn't a full lie either. And no one, not the most righteous person who ever lived in the real world that you can find in ANY history book, has ever been able to live on the far left hand side of that continuum and tell the full, complete truth in every circumstance to everyone. NO ONE. Not even those people who are called 'sinless' or 'righteous'. I'll be happy to explore that further in PM with anyone who's interested.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The MunchKING]

"My associates in the Prefecture" can only mean the cops/arena guards.

Or he means Roy/Belkar.


"informed me of a unique" means Enor?

"Unique opprotunity to learn about the interesting life of a homosexual'. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html)

Hey Belkar DID say they wanted someone "Just like him, but 20 years younger".

True it's usually queens and such that like hot gladiator slave boys, but you never know what Tarkin is thinking. :smalltongue::smalltongue:

[calar]

Ahhhh, Lawful Evil at its finest.

[pendell]

Wait a minute -- is Tarquin *unarmed*? I've been looking at these slides, and I just realized that he hasn't used any weapon besides his body either in his earlier encounter with Haley or now.

He used a sword when he fought Nale, but he's not yet drawn a weapon. Nor do we see one sheathed, as we do with Roy's sword or Haley's bow.

Hmm .. is it because, as a general, his main weapon is carried in his skull?


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[RyldArgith]

I love this comic :smallamused:

[Terbovus]

ooo, That Tarquin's a cad and a half, isn't he! :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

I think we need more of a gradation than binary whole truth/whole lie. And yes, the world punishes an actual lie more severely than a partial truth.


There's got to be a line drawn between impossible perfection and the abyss. And 'perfection' really is impossible, because by that standard the mere act of putting on clothes is a lie, covering up our more unsightly blemishes and making us appear more attractive than we are. Part of that, I think, comes from acknowledging that there's a continuum, a gradation, of deception. A half-truth is not the full truth, but it isn't a full lie either.

I tend to agree. Sometimes there are grey areas. Between truth and deception. Between "dubious" and "outright Evil". And so on.

Even BoVD points out that no matter how black-and-white your approach to D&D morality, there will always be grey areas.

And mentions lying as one of these- not outright evil, but risky.

[suszterpatt]

The real punchline here is that there are a million ways in which Tarquin could convince Elan that this wasn't such an evil thing to do afterall.

[Tobimaro]

"Dodged a bullet" is the modern saying which means "avoided an undesireable outcome". Tarquin "Dodged the arrow" by not having the girl find out until AFTER he sexxed her up and possibly got a marrage proposal out of the deal.

Yep. Tarquin shows off why he is the Magnificent Bastard. Got her in the sack BEFORE she realized that there is a reason why Tarquin had so many wives.

[oddtail]

I agree with Shale that Tarquin's action was... well, Neutral at best. This is not to say that a Lawful character can't do anything Chaotic... and Tarquin *does* act fairly lawful much of the time.

But honestly, what Tarquin did does not ring as much as "lawful" to me as "something a player would do to poorly disguise his actions before the GM as being Lawful".

The missing part of the equation, regardless of the "lie or no lie" argument, is that Lawful characters *do* think that law and order are good and useful, even if they are just tools. A Lawful character will typically desire an ordered, structured world. Making a misleading deal is Lawful, sure, but trickery through words is just an excuse, it doesn't fit a Lawful way of thinking. Contrast: Tarquin being completely fine with a bounty hunter being convicted after threatening him. Certainly, he's taking advantage of the law, but he's working within the system. What he did here is just like Shale said - it's like saying "I'm going to sell you this knife" and stabbing someone.

Seriously, if we use that logic, there is *no* action that could not be interpreted, after some very convoluted explaining, as Good, or Evil, or Lawful, or Chaotic. You just have to be creative enough. And that makes the alignment system pretty much meaningless.

Again - it's like a player wanted to be able to do anything, and argued with the GM "but that was Lawful, see?". Of course, Tarquin is genre savvy, so he probably did just that ;)

[Jay R]

The difference, I suppose is that Roy was flat out lying, and Tarquin technically spoke only the truth.

Actually, the difference is no mere technicality, and is far deeper and more focused on intent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html):

"You're trying. You're trying to be Lawful Good. People forget how crucial it is to be trying, even if they screw it up now and then."

"You ... well, your record is full of grey spots, but you never stop working to improve it. That's what's important. To us, anyway."

[Marnath]

The missing part of the equation, regardless of the "lie or no lie" argument, is that Lawful characters *do* think that law and order are good and useful, even if they are just tools. A Lawful character will typically desire an ordered, structured world. Making a misleading deal is Lawful, sure, but trickery through words is just an excuse, it doesn't fit a Lawful way of thinking.

That's where the "Evil" part comes in. Lawful evil uses the letter of the law to his advantage, and to hell with the spirit of the law. Lawful good uses the law to help other people, right up until the law harms people or their rights, in which case he works outside the law, reluctantly.

[The_Weirdo]

Like I said, i think she was desperate. The empire of Blood was probably the only one close enough and powerful enough to help.

Well, they helped A side...

[Sengoku]

Deliberate deception by using loopholes in deals (written or not) is the common practice of all and every fiend in D&D you can make deals with, from the lowest imp to Asmodeus.

And that is what I always saw in each and every official module where there is the 'Deal with The Devil', just like Faust, and just like the 3 archfiends did with V.

It's suggested in legends beyond D&D to never ever make a deal with a devil, because he is older, smarter, more intelligent, and it's basically his work, so the chances he'll outsmart you if he can are close to 100%.

(Planescape and Ravenloft offer very precise examples, if you play them or read them)

All the paragraphs above to say: Tarquin did nothing that cannot be described better than 'action and ideology extremely fitting with the Lawful Evil alignment'.

He never signed, or made verbal promises, and everything he did and said was not contradictory with the following facts, the ambassador's bad for trusting a LE general of a LE empire without precise guarantees, if you ask me...

I'm baffled; we have a character whose actions respect fully his background, and ppl complain about him/his actions on the moral scale?!

Are we reading a D&D webcomic where death, murder, and whatever are common practice and already used and experienced (and liked my many, I could add) or what??

[faustin]

Anyone is even slightly interested in what was going Tarquin to show Elan before the ambassador attack, or if is related to the main plot?

[Marnath]

Anyone is even slightly interested in what was going Tarquin to show Elan before the ambassador attack, or if is related to the main plot?

Half a dozen people have asked that this thread, so...yes?

[Johel]

Wait a minute -- is Tarquin *unarmed*? I've been looking at these slides, and I just realized that he hasn't used any weapon besides his body either in his earlier encounter with Haley or now.

He used a sword when he fought Nale, but he's not yet drawn a weapon. Nor do we see one sheathed, as we do with Roy's sword or Haley's bow.

Hmm .. is it because, as a general, his main weapon is carried in his skull?


Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think you got a point, here.

Maybe he is just THAT confident in his own ability to dodge/delay opponent until reinforcement arrive.
It is a very militaristic city, after all.

Or maybe he got Gloves of Storing.

[calar]

I agree with Shale that Tarquin's action was... well, Neutral at best. This is not to say that a Lawful character can't do anything Chaotic... and Tarquin *does* act fairly lawful much of the time.

But honestly, what Tarquin did does not ring as much as "lawful" to me as "something a player would do to poorly disguise his actions before the GM as being Lawful".

The missing part of the equation, regardless of the "lie or no lie" argument, is that Lawful characters *do* think that law and order are good and useful, even if they are just tools. A Lawful character will typically desire an ordered, structured world. Making a misleading deal is Lawful, sure, but trickery through words is just an excuse, it doesn't fit a Lawful way of thinking. Contrast: Tarquin being completely fine with a bounty hunter being convicted after threatening him. Certainly, he's taking advantage of the law, but he's working within the system. What he did here is just like Shale said - it's like saying "I'm going to sell you this knife" and stabbing someone.

Seriously, if we use that logic, there is *no* action that could not be interpreted, after some very convoluted explaining, as Good, or Evil, or Lawful, or Chaotic. You just have to be creative enough. And that makes the alignment system pretty much meaningless.

Again - it's like a player wanted to be able to do anything, and argued with the GM "but that was Lawful, see?". Of course, Tarquin is genre savvy, so he probably did just that ;)I have to disagree, twisting the exact wording of an agreement to your own ends while not actually violating the agreement is a classic LE move. He followed the contract which makes him lawful, but the twisting of the contract is an evil act, not as much a chaotic one.

[blackjack217]

or a rod of arming

[Johel]

I have to disagree, twisting the exact wording of an agreement to your own ends while not actually violating the agreement is a classic LE move. He followed the contract which makes him lawful, but the twisting of the contract is an evil act, not as much a chaotic one.

Seconded.
That's pretty much the definition of a Devil.
And who can say those bastards aren't LE ?:smallamused:

[Indalecio]

Although I am confused why Tarquin would just hand over territory to a rival empire who are known expansionists and with whom he shares a land border. Maybe going to defect to them? But he's already said Elan will take over the Empire of Blood.



I don't think the EoB has the resources to make use of it. The inhabitants of the FCoD are starving, and the EoB can probably barely feed itself, it is a desert afterall. Providing food and resources for the FCoD means less food for its own citizens, which means that they'd be more likely to revolt.

Come to think of it, lack of food is probably the reason goverments in area don't tend to last long.

[hamishspence]

Seconded.
That's pretty much the definition of a Devil.
And who can say those bastards aren't LE ?:smallamused:

Which is not to say devils won't violate agreements, or tell outright lies, just that twisting them rather than violating them, and making misleading statements rather than outright lies, is more in-character for them.

[snikrept]

So... who are the Prefecture?

[hamishspence]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefecture

Apparently it's an administrative unit- everything under the control of a Prefect, is that Prefect's Prefecture.

And a Prefect is a governing officer.

[Joerg]

Tarquin seemed quite similar to Kubota in this strip. Especially in panels 5 and 7.

[Johel]

Pannel 7 is especially made of win.

You could just as well write "Just As Planned" on Tarquin's face.

The pose itself reveals he's pretty much enjoying himself while feeling perfectly in control of the situation.

[Sijo]

...I can't help but feel a little... unfulfilled. Are you sure there wasn't a punchline missing there? OK we find out Tarkin betrayed his ally. I guess that proves he's lawful evil. But- was that what he brought his son to see- her failed assassination attempt and the reveal of his evil (would be in character I guess) or was that something that he expected to happen but not right then? More importantly what's Elan's reaction to this? I guess I'll wait until the next strip to judge this one.

[Marnath]

...I can't help but feel a little... unfulfilled. Are you sure there wasn't a punchline missing there? OK we find out Tarkin betrayed his ally. I guess that proves he's lawful evil. But- was that what he brought his son to see- her failed assassination attempt and the reveal of his evil (would be in character I guess) or was that something that he expected to happen but not right then? More importantly what's Elan's reaction to this? I guess I'll wait until the next strip to judge this one.

We've been over this before, not every strip is a joke. No there wasn't a punchline. As to your questions, we'll have to wait and see.

[Kaytara]

Epic evil dad is epic. ^^


Pannel 7 is especially made of win.

You could just as well write "Just As Planned" on Tarquin's face.

The pose itself reveals he's pretty much enjoying himself while feeling perfectly in control of the situation.

Seconded.

Rich, you're doing a stellar job with using the medium, more than ever. ^^ Who knew stick figures could be even more expressive than we already knew?

[rewinn]

Tarquin seems to be a distressingly high level ¬____¬

Think he's a straight fighter? Because my money is on prestige classes.

He's definitely straight - although he gets that question all the time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html). :smalltongue:

(And I've never heard LGBT called a "prestige class", but in the Stickverse, who knows? :smallamused:)

[turkishproverb]

Heh. missed that strip before. Funny.