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Drothmal
2010-11-08, 07:15 PM
I hope the title says it all (literally)

I've seen at least one if not more of each of this threads coming up every week, with the OP asking the question (sometimes with the best of intentions) followed by 6-8 pages of discussion and then the moderator locking the thread due to people forgetting themselves in the heat of the argument. Most of the discussions could be avoided if the OP had looked up previous discussions of the topic

I want to compile a list of threads that could be pointed to someone asking any of the most troublesome questions, so this could be referenced earlier on and pointless discussions could be kept to a minimum.
Here are the questions that, at least to me, have caused the most trouble, followed by a couple threads about it (which I compiled in 5-10mins of browsing for all these topics). Feel free to add more questions and to suggest links. I’ll try to edit this post so it includes a fair amount of responses (since there is no shortage of them) to each question

Edit: If you are reading this and want to check out some of the references, make sure not to Necro dead posts!!!!


Edit 2: This is an AMAZING set of lyrics written by Talya that complete captures the spirit of this thread

Direct link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=35

To the tune of "we didn't start the fire" by Billy Joel

Melee combat, T.O.B.
3rd, Three Point Five, or Four-E
Wizards, Monks or Sorcerers
CoDzilla versus Rangers

Jarlaxle's wide brimmed hat
Monkey Grip don't work like that
D&D or Exalted?
Working as intended?

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Divination - Can we scry?
Evocation sucks, you'll die
Enchantment is hard to use
Illusion is easily abused

Will this make my Pally fall?
Can I drop an Iron Wall?
This game is to much like WoW
Damage calc from falling cows

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Exalted's too anime
Dragonbloods are often gay
Small Daiklaives are epic fail
Hot Bikini Chainmail!

Should he run DMPCs?
Leadership is so O.P.
My DM makes me want to hurl
Physics slaughters cat-girls.

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Faerun, Greyhawk, Eberron
Star Wars Saga will live on
Creation, or Shadowrun
Rokugan, maybe Dark Sun

Can I do this under RAW?
Good and Evil, Chaos - Law
Rabid, nasty version wars!
I can't take it anymore!

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter


- Tier1: Broken or Amazing?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168728&highlight=DMPC (Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169440&highlight=DMPC (Tier 1`s in your game, do they go boom?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174230&highlight=Leadership (What would it take to get a top-tier melee?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123832 (What Makes Classes Broken?)

-Wizards: Broken, Super-broken or my one true love class

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171994 (what if we were all wizards)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112811 (What Makes Classes Broken?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111843 (Punch Out The Wizard!)

- Monks: Awesome or Suck?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174895 (Monk, why does it suck?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48134 (Best PvP Class In Your Opinion)

- Fighters: Powerless or just right?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170630 (Out-fight the fighter?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153628 (Monks, Paladins, and Fighters, oh my!)

- ToB: Broken? Anime-like? Can melee have nice things too?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171200 (Tome of Battle: Why some hate?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174916 (What are your opinions on ToB?)

- 3.5 vs 4e
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168893&highlight=edition (Thinking About Switching Back to 3.5...)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168469&highlight=edition (The D&D 4e thread: because we don't appear to have one)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168766&highlight=edition (The D&D 4e and Essentials Thread: for people who have good things to say)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164463&highlight=edition (4e.... Thoughts?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165843&highlight=edition (My thoughts on 4e...THIS IS NOT HOW IT LOOKS LIKE!)
- 3.5 vs pathfinder
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7609693#post7609693 (The 3.5/Pathfinder Handbook by Saph)

- Are DMPCs a good idea?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174712&highlight=DMPC (Dealing with the Stereotypical Mary Sue)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172055&highlight=DMPC (NPCs, DMPCs, and DM's former characters oh my!)

- Truenaming
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175481 (what is this 'truenaming' and why does it apparently suck so bad?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176034 (what if we were all Truenamers)


- Homebrew

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175913 (How much attention do you pay to others' homebrew material?)

- Alignment

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175858 (Evil - what is and what isn't)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173592 (Paladins "punish those that harm or threaten innocents", but what counts?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173743 (Logic & Alignment statements)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168731 (Evil as a mirror of Good)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168818 (Chaos as self-centred, Law as selfless)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161040 (How evil does somebody need to be in D&D, to have an Evil alignment?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168502 (What alignment is somebody who has only 1 of the 2 "necessary" Good traits?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150347 (Are NPCs always aware of their own alignment?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157367 (Can "acts of neutrality" change a (Good or Evil) character to Neutral?)

Kurald Galain
2010-11-08, 07:24 PM
Obligatory link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106111).

Don't forget:
Why do paladins fall?
Mystic Theurge: decent or powerless?
Tiers: helpful or game breaking?
Should you use your DM influence to seduce your players?
3.5 vs 3.0
3.0 vs 2.0
4.0 vs 4.4
Rituals: useful or useless?
Is D&D a MMORPG?
FATAL

Urpriest
2010-11-08, 07:27 PM
Noo! If you complete your sinister project, what shall we have to talk about??

Drothmal
2010-11-08, 07:46 PM
Obligatory link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106111).

Don't forget:
Why do paladins fall?
Mystic Theurge: decent or powerless?
Tiers: helpful or game breaking?
Should you use your DM influence to seduce your players?
3.5 vs 3.0
3.0 vs 2.0
4.0 vs 4.4
Rituals: useful or useless?
Is D&D a MMORPG?
FATAL


All of those are great! I just wanted to start with some and see if people could link previous threads to this one to make a complete reference



Noo! If you complete your sinister project, what shall we have to talk about??

Kittens, maybe? I mean, Mwahahaha (evil Laugh) You can't stop me!!!!

Frosty
2010-11-08, 07:53 PM
When the heck are the fourth bullet and the last bullet regular topics? We talk about FATAL?

OracleofWuffing
2010-11-08, 08:05 PM
When the heck are the fourth bullet and the last bullet regular topics? We talk about FATAL?

The first rule about FATAL is never to talk about FATAL! :smallbiggrin:


Don't forget:
3.5 vs 3.0
3.0 vs 2.0
4.0 vs 4.4

While you're at it, don't forget "Why do some people call D&D 4e Essentials 4.5, 4.4, 4.25, 4.14159265, and so on?"

Keld Denar
2010-11-08, 08:19 PM
Sticky please! One reference thread for the questions and debates that come up every week...

Then we all just put it in our sigs, and when someone asks a question, you just go:

VV See sig!
V

Drothmal
2010-11-08, 08:25 PM
Sticky please! One reference thread for the questions and debates that come up every week...

Then we all just put it in our sigs, and when someone asks a question, you just go:

VV See sig!
V


Yes! That is the idea! I would appreciate if anyone want to volunteer any other links to the above questions.

If you want to add a question to the list, I'm more than game, but please give at least one link to a relevant thread

Thanks!

Coidzor
2010-11-08, 08:46 PM
3.5 vs 3.0
3.0 vs 2.0


Aww, I'm sad now. I missed out on those.

The Oakenshield
2010-11-08, 08:50 PM
I'm kind of proud my first GitP thread is in that list, for some reason...:smallbiggrin:

Signmaker
2010-11-08, 08:54 PM
I'm kind of proud my first GitP thread is in that list, for some reason...:smallbiggrin:

I'm kind of proud I posted in the Great Ice Cream Debate. :smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2010-11-08, 09:01 PM
Aww, I'm sad now. I missed out on those.

I was gonna say "Missed out? What? Those are still regular threads!" But then I remembered that they're mostly "3.5 vs. 2.0/you mean OD&D/No, I think it's AD&D isn't it?" these days.

Logalmier
2010-11-08, 09:05 PM
Here's a link for a monk debate. It happens to be the one in Sir Giacamos sig.:smallwink:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48134

I'll list more later once I get my links together.


Obligatory link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106111).

Don't forget:
Why do paladins fall?
Mystic Theurge: decent or powerless?
Tiers: helpful or game breaking?
Should you use your DM influence to seduce your players?
3.5 vs 3.0
3.0 vs 2.0
4.0 vs 4.4
Rituals: useful or useless?
Is D&D a MMORPG?
FATAL


DON'T FORGET ALIGNMENT WARS!!!!:smallfurious::smalltongue:

Coidzor
2010-11-08, 09:08 PM
I was gonna say "Missed out? What? Those are still regular threads!" But then I remembered that they're mostly "3.5 vs. 2.0/you mean OD&D/No, I think it's AD&D isn't it?" these days.

Apparently I'm just really unobservant then. x.x

Thurbane
2010-11-08, 09:19 PM
I know this thread has the best of intentions, but unfortunately nothing is ever going to stop the tide of Monks/Fighters/ToB threads cropping up. (The edition vs. edition ones seem to have slowed to a trickle...).

Newer members (and some not so new) often create threads without searching.

tcrudisi
2010-11-08, 10:51 PM
Newer members (and some not so new) often create threads without searching.

Clearly you are wrong. The newer members come here, search the forums, and resurrect old threads because they search. I find it is the older members that re-create the threads since their preferred thread has been locked.

There, now we can add "New members vs. old members" to the original post. :smallbiggrin:

I really hope that everyone could tell that I was joking.

Thurbane
2010-11-08, 11:09 PM
Clearly you are wrong. The newer members come here, search the forums, and resurrect old threads because they search. I find it is the older members that re-create the threads since their preferred thread has been locked.

There, now we can add "New members vs. old members" to the original post. :smallbiggrin:

I really hope that everyone could tell that I was joking.
True, there is a fair bit of thread necro involved as well. :smalltongue:

I used to be a modertaor at a pretty large game studio official forum, and I've often pondered the virtues of thread necro vs. spamming the same topic over and over. At that particular forum, we tended towards preferring (some) thread necro (when people had something relevant to add, and preferrably ask permission first) to the same topic cropping up over and over again.

Different strokes for different folks. :smallwink:

ffone
2010-11-08, 11:26 PM
I hope the title says it all

I've seen at least one if not more of each of this threads coming up every week, with the OP asking the question (sometimes with the best of intentions) followed by 6-8 pages of discussion and then the moderator locking the thread due to people forgetting themselves in the heat of the argument. Most of the discussions could be avoided if the OP had looked up previous discussions of the topic

The forum 'thread Necromancy' rules basically guarantee the Topic-Go-Round.

Frosty
2010-11-08, 11:32 PM
Which in turn means post count++ for all.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-09, 04:41 AM
* 3.5 vs 3.0
* 3.0 vs 2.0
Aww, I'm sad now. I missed out on those.
That's easy: 3.0 is precisely a 50% improvement over 2.0, and 3.5 is 17% better than 3.0. Math doesn't lie!

Leon
2010-11-09, 04:59 AM
Monks/Fighters/Wizards/ToB/3.5v4e/3.5vPF Why the hate?


Because people need something to look down on occasion and these things seem to be the most common targets.

Myth
2010-11-09, 04:59 AM
Make sure to add:

The tier system.
The X handbook (when asking for prestige classes especially) + LogicNinja's Batman Guide + Treantmonk's Playing God guide
Incantatrix, why so broken? - admittedly i searched around before asking on my first post ever, and had not found information that answered all my questions.

The first modslap i got was for necroing an old thread where someone had used Perform: Sarcasm for Monk and i rolled 1 on the Detect Sarcasm check. Since I continue being slapped around by the Mods (which is still better then being banhammered) I welcome a sticky topic we can just >>>> to whenever it's Monkday or Theurgesday. :smallbiggrin:

grimbold
2010-11-09, 11:45 AM
also add to the hate list
half-elves
this does not come up often but when they do come up they get mocked.

good idea though

Kaeso
2010-11-09, 12:04 PM
Obligatory link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106111).

Don't forget:
Why do paladins fall?
Mystic Theurge: decent or powerless?
Tiers: helpful or game breaking?
Should you use your DM influence to seduce your players?
3.5 vs 3.0
3.0 vs 2.0
4.0 vs 4.4
Rituals: useful or useless?
Is D&D a MMORPG?
FATAL


:smallsigh: Why would you do that?!

Koury
2010-11-09, 12:11 PM
:smallsigh: Why would you do that?!

Wait, you're not supposed to do that? :smalleek:

Sorry Keld, I guess I won't bring all those candles and wine over any more.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-11-09, 01:31 PM
Y'know what might me more amusing - a meta-thread.

Each week, make a new post that tracks the Flame Bait (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InternetBackdraft) topics for that week. This will help honest folks quickly understand "the hate" for a given topic and put trolls on notice that We Saw What They Did There.

Plus, it'd be an amusing record! I, for one, would love for there to see a compilation of Trolley Problem Alignment Threads :smallbiggrin:

Heck, we could even give out awards! "Most Original No Win Scenario for a Paladin;" "Weakest Justification for Monks Being Good;" "Best Schrodinger's Fighter." It'd be a hoot and a half! :smalltongue:

dsmiles
2010-11-09, 01:36 PM
Y'know what might me more amusing - a meta-thread.

Each week, make a new post that tracks the Flame Bait (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InternetBackdraft) topics for that week. This will help honest folks quickly understand "the hate" for a given topic and put trolls on notice that We Saw What They Did There.

Plus, it'd be an amusing record! I, for one, would love for there to see a compilation of Trolley Problem Alignment Threads :smallbiggrin:

Heck, we could even give out awards! "Most Original No Win Scenario for a Paladin;" "Weakest Justification for Monks Being Good;" "Best Schrodinger's Fighter." It'd be a hoot and a half! :smalltongue:

Meta-thread. HAH! We could call the awards "The Trollies!" HAHHAA!!DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH COKE BURNS WHEN IT COMES OUT YOUR NOSE?!?!?!?

Greenish
2010-11-09, 01:37 PM
Heck, we could even give out awards! "Most Original No Win Scenario for a Paladin;" "Weakest Justification for Monks Being Good;" "Best Schrodinger's Fighter." It'd be a hoot and a half! :smalltongue:"Most mentions of Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike on a single page."

Drothmal
2010-11-09, 01:38 PM
While you're at it, don't forget "Why do some people call D&D 4e Essentials 4.5, 4.4, 4.25, 4.14159265, and so on?"

I am not very familiar with 4e (by that I do not mean I find it any better or worse than any other system, just that I don't have the books and have never played it), so I have not read the threads about that topic in particular. If you would like to link some appropriate threads, I would love to include it


Here's a link for a monk debate. It happens to be the one in Sir Giacamos sig.:smallwink:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48134

I'll list more later once I get my links together.

DON'T FORGET ALIGNMENT WARS!!!!:smallfurious::smalltongue:

Thanks! I added it to the list
I thought of including Alignment, but due to the complexity of the issue (crunch vs fluff, mechanics vs RP, personal philosophy vs dictionary definitions), I didn't know if that would not turn this thread into a discussion, which it exactly what I wanted to avoid.

That being said, if people want to volunteer links, I would certainly consider adding them to the list


I know this thread has the best of intentions, but unfortunately nothing is ever going to stop the tide of Monks/Fighters/ToB threads cropping up. (The edition vs. edition ones seem to have slowed to a trickle...).

Newer members (and some not so new) often create threads without searching.

I'm glad that it's noticeable that I'm doing this out of good will (I was worried that people thought I was just trying to create a megaargument including all possible topics)

I know it's not gonna stop the discussion, but I thought I should try to help out those people out there that actually are asking these questions out of lack of experience instead of trying to prove how smart they are.

My ideal outcome out of this thread would be that, from time to time, someone starts one of the weekly threads and it's redirected here, where their question is answered and they subsequently post in their own new thread. "Oh! I didn't know there was so much discussion about this! I'll start reading right away! I'll post again if I have further questions"

If there is a 20% reduction in problematic posts, I would consider this thread a HUGE success


The forum 'thread Necromancy' rules basically guarantee the Topic-Go-Round.

Because people need something to look down on occasion and these things seem to be the most common targets.

Like I said, I know it will pop up again, I'm just hoping to provide a tool for those that need some help with their searching



That's easy: 3.0 is precisely a 50% improvement over 2.0, and 3.5 is 17% better than 3.0. Math doesn't lie!

Brilliant! You sir, are a Mathematician to recon with.

My riposte: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2039#comic



Make sure to add:

The tier system.
The X handbook (when asking for prestige classes especially) + LogicNinja's Batman Guide + Treantmonk's Playing God guide
Incantatrix, why so broken? - admittedly i searched around before asking on my first post ever, and had not found information that answered all my questions.

I would certainly appreciate a link to the Incantatrix discussion, even though I have not see one of those lately (please do not take that to be an invitation or a challenge)


I welcome a sticky topic we can just >>>> to whenever it's Monkday or Theurgesday. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks!



also add to the hate list
half-elves
this does not come up often but when they do come up they get mocked.

good idea though

I have not seen that many half-elf wars. I was trying to stick to the most popular topics (after all, I don't wanna catalog ALL the forums :smallwink:)


Wait, you're not supposed to do that? :smalleek:

Sorry Keld, I guess I won't bring all those candles and wine over any more.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh
............
............

Starbuck_II
2010-11-09, 01:39 PM
When the heck are the fourth bullet and the last bullet regular topics? We talk about FATAL?

No, FATAL talks about you. Which version are we referring to?
1) Fantasy Adventure To Adult Lechery
2) From Another Time; Another Land

I hear there are at least two versions.

Here is a postive review I found:
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_5754.html

Master_Rahl22
2010-11-09, 01:39 PM
Ice cream debate thread = SO MUCH WIN

Also, I support the idea of The Trollies whole-heartedly. :smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2010-11-09, 01:41 PM
Obligatory link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106111).

Don't forget:
Why do paladins fall?
Mystic Theurge: decent or powerless?
Tiers: helpful or game breaking?
Should you use your DM influence to seduce your players?
3.5 vs 3.0
3.0 vs 2.0
4.0 vs 4.4
Rituals: useful or useless?
Is D&D a MMORPG?
FATAL


Attempts to solve the Monk/Fighter/Wizard/etc. wars once and for all

Gametime
2010-11-09, 02:58 PM
No, FATAL talks about you. Which version are we referring to?
1) Fantasy Adventure To Adult Lechery
2) From Another Time; Another Land

I hear there are at least two versions.

Here is a postive review I found:
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_5754.html

There are two versions, but they aren't really related to the names. The first name was used during playtesting and the second name was used for the actual release because they worried that the "lechery" bit would damage sales.

The main change from the playtest version to the published version is that some especially offensive magical items were removed from the final release. More details can be found on the game's TV Tropes page, if you're interested, since any actual discussion of the game's content is almost certainly a violation of the forum rules.

Frosty
2010-11-09, 03:03 PM
Don't you mean 100% certainty? :smallwink:

Talya
2010-11-09, 03:25 PM
Melee combat, T.O.B.
3rd, Three Point Five, or Four-E
Wizards, Monks or Sorcerers
CoDzilla versus Rangers

Jarlaxle's wide brimmed hat
Monkey Grip don't work like that
D&D or Exalted?
Working as intended?

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Exalted is too anime
Dragonbloods are often gay
Small Daiklaives are epic fail
Hot Bikini Chainmail!

Should he run DMPCs?
Leadership is so O.P.
My DM makes me want to hurl
Physics slaughters cat-girls.

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Divination - Can we scry?
Evocation sucks, you'll die
Enchantment is hard to use
Illusion's easily abused

Will this make my Pally fall?
Can I drop an Iron Wall?
This game is to much like WoW
Damage calc from falling cows

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Faerun, Greyhawk, Eberron
Star Wars Saga will live on
Creation, or Shadowrun
Rokugan, maybe Dark Sun

Can I do this under RAW?
Good and Evil, Chaos - Law
Rabid, nasty version wars!
I can't take it anymore!

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Oracle_Hunter
2010-11-09, 03:34 PM
^ Now the official theme song for this thread :smallcool:

(For the Uncultured - sung to the tune of "We Didn't Start the Fire")

dsmiles
2010-11-09, 03:42 PM
^ Now the official theme song for this thread :smallcool:

Seriously. Talya wins the thread. And a cookie.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_53oMB4-fxXM/SVZZdJntnPI/AAAAAAAAAAM/vXEtrdBFtqI/s1600-R/cookie.gif

Drothmal
2010-11-09, 03:46 PM
That was amazing! This thread has already gone way beyond my wildest expectations....

Talya, would it be okay if I quote this in the first post? I would need to spoiler it and I don't know how to do it, so if anyone has any advice on it, I would appreciate that too!

Talya
2010-11-09, 03:46 PM
I need a verse referencing cat-girls.

It's a work in progress.

Eldariel
2010-11-09, 03:49 PM
Melee combat, T.O.B.
3rd, Three Point Five, or Four-E
Wizards, Monks or Sorcerers
CoDzilla versus Rangers

Jarlaxle's wide brimmed hat
Monkey Grip don't work like that
D&D or Exalted?
Working as intended?

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Divination - Can we scry?
Evocation sucks, you'll die
Enchantment is hard to use
Illusion is easily abused

Will this make my Pally fall?
Can I drop an Iron Wall?
This game is to much like WoW
Damage calc from falling cows

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Faerun, Greyhawk, Eberron
Star Wars Saga will live on
Creation, or Shadowrun
Rokugan, maybe Dark Sun

Can I do this under RAW?
Good and Evil, Chaos - Law
Rabid, nasty version wars!
I can't take it anymore!

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

*sniffle* It's so beautiful. Not to mention, the whole forum in a nutshell. I...good job. Now we can just sticky this and lock the forum!

Talya
2010-11-09, 03:50 PM
Talya, would it be okay if I quote this in the first post? I would need to spoiler it and I don't know how to do it, so if anyone has any advice on it, I would appreciate that too!

Oh, yeah, sure.

I recommend linking it too:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9730138&postcount=35

Paste the text into your post, highlight it all and hit teh "Spoil" button. Or use {spoiler}{/spoiler} around it (replacing {} brackets with [] brackets.)

Thurbane
2010-11-09, 04:20 PM
Actually, a couple more topics I've seen quite a bit:

- Are DMPCs a good idea?
- Is the Leadership feat broken?
- My DM plays favorites with his g/f's character!

Drothmal
2010-11-09, 04:25 PM
Actually, a couple more topics I've seen quite a bit:

- Are DMPCs a good idea?
- Is the Leadership feat broken?
- My DM plays favorites with his g/f's character!

I'll add the DMPCs and leadership to the main questions (the favoritism question does come up, but I feel that is too much of a case by case basis for people to be satisfied with reading about others, but I could be convinced otherwise). Any recommended threads?

Oracle_Hunter
2010-11-09, 04:27 PM
Actually, a couple more topics I've seen quite a bit:

- Are DMPCs a good idea?
- Is the Leadership feat broken?
- My DM plays favorites with his g/f's character!
Technically, we're looking for reoccuring threads that have no constructive answer and yet are continually argued about. So DMPCs and Leadership would be in, but "DM's Girlfriend" probably wouldn't.

If I were to make the meta-thread (and I may :smalltongue:) I'd only track the following:

- Edition Warz
- Alignment Threads (e.g. Paladin Falls, What Alignment Is X?)
- Class Warz (e.g. Wizard v. Fighter, Monk v. Wizard)
- Why The Hate? tm

Kaeso
2010-11-09, 04:28 PM
Melee combat, T.O.B.
3rd, Three Point Five, or Four-E
Wizards, Monks or Sorcerers
CoDzilla versus Rangers

Jarlaxle's wide brimmed hat
Monkey Grip don't work like that
D&D or Exalted?
Working as intended?

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Divination - Can we scry?
Evocation sucks, you'll die
Enchantment is hard to use
Illusion is easily abused

Will this make my Pally fall?
Can I drop an Iron Wall?
This game is to much like WoW
Damage calc from falling cows

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Faerun, Greyhawk, Eberron
Star Wars Saga will live on
Creation, or Shadowrun
Rokugan, maybe Dark Sun

Can I do this under RAW?
Good and Evil, Chaos - Law
Rabid, nasty version wars!
I can't take it anymore!

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

This.... is awesome.

ffone
2010-11-09, 04:32 PM
My DM plays favorites with his g/f's character!

A: Inform him that most girls actually end up with more respect for and attraction to the guys we can't easily wrap around our little finger. :smallbiggrin:

Talya
2010-11-09, 04:33 PM
Actually, a couple more topics I've seen quite a bit:

- Are DMPCs a good idea?
- Is the Leadership feat broken?
- My DM plays favorites with his g/f's character!

Exalted's too anime
Dragonbloods are often gay
Small Daiklaives are epic fail
Hot Bikini Chainmail!

Should he run DMPCs?
Leadership is so O.P.
My DM makes me want to hurl
Physics slaughters cat-girls.

Adding to the original.

Eloel
2010-11-09, 04:35 PM
Melee combat, T.O.B.
3rd, Three Point Five, or Four-E
Wizards, Monks or Sorcerers
CoDzilla versus Rangers

Jarlaxle's wide brimmed hat
Monkey Grip don't work like that
D&D or Exalted?
Working as intended?

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Divination - Can we scry?
Evocation sucks, you'll die
Enchantment is hard to use
Illusion is easily abused

Will this make my Pally fall?
Can I drop an Iron Wall?
This game is to much like WoW
Damage calc from falling cows

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Faerun, Greyhawk, Eberron
Star Wars Saga will live on
Creation, or Shadowrun
Rokugan, maybe Dark Sun

Can I do this under RAW?
Good and Evil, Chaos - Law
Rabid, nasty version wars!
I can't take it anymore!

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter
You..
*bows*
You're awesome.

Edit: Also, when you're done, would you mind sending the whole thing as a PM or something? I'll try to get people singing it :smallbiggrin:

Talya
2010-11-09, 04:40 PM
You..
*bows*
You're awesome.

Edit: Also, when you're done, would you mind sending the whole thing as a PM or something? I'll try to get people singing it :smallbiggrin:

I think it's complete, now. Added an extra verse.

Drothmal
2010-11-09, 04:43 PM
I think it's complete, now. Added an extra verse.

Compiled version ready in first post. Thanks for the awesomeness!

Oh, and added a few links to the DMPC and Tier 1 section!

Talya
2010-11-09, 04:53 PM
Compiled version ready in first post. Thanks for the awesomeness!

Oh, and added a few links to the DMPC and Tier 1 section!

Gotta move the new verse into the middle. "I can't take it anymore!" needs to be the last line of the song other than the chorus.

Drothmal
2010-11-09, 04:58 PM
Fixed, thanks!

Logalmier
2010-11-09, 05:00 PM
Mua ha ha ha! I have returned with MOAR LINKS!

To be filed under: "Wizards are Brokenly Good/Tier One Might":

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123832

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112811

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111843
(That last one is a list of all the things you'd have to get through to kill a wizard.)

To be filed under: "Fighters: Powerless or just right?/Monks: Awesome or Suck?":

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153628

Drothmal
2010-11-09, 05:07 PM
Awesome!!! I added all of them.
Thanks!

Logalmier
2010-11-09, 05:17 PM
Woa... I just did a search and this is what I found:

To be filed under: "3.5 vs 4e":

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168893&highlight=edition

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168469&highlight=edition

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168766&highlight=edition

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164463&highlight=edition

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165843&highlight=edition

I second that this thread should be stickyed.

The Shadowmind
2010-11-09, 05:23 PM
I haven't seen many truenamer threads lately, but the rarely talked about shadowcaster is becoming more common for some reason.

Talya
2010-11-09, 05:26 PM
I haven't seen many truenamer threads lately, but the rarely talked about shadowcaster is becoming more common for some reason.

I may need another small verse, if only to mention killer gnomes. Actually, it would fit with the pattern of WDSTF anyway.

Myth
2010-11-09, 05:30 PM
Melee combat, T.O.B.
3rd, Three Point Five, or Four-E
Wizards, Monks or Sorcerers
CoDzilla versus Rangers

Jarlaxle's wide brimmed hat
Monkey Grip don't work like that
D&D or Exalted?
Working as intended?

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Exalted is too anime
Dragonbloods are often gay
Small Daiklaives are epic fail
Hot Bikini Chainmail!

Should he run DMPCs?
Leadership is so O.P.
My DM makes me want to hurl
Physics slaughters cat-girls.

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Divination - Can we scry?
Evocation sucks, you'll die
Enchantment is hard to use
Illusion's easily abused

Will this make my Pally fall?
Can I drop an Iron Wall?
This game is to much like WoW
Damage calc from falling cows

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Faerun, Greyhawk, Eberron
Star Wars Saga will live on
Creation, or Shadowrun
Rokugan, maybe Dark Sun

Can I do this under RAW?
Good and Evil, Chaos - Law
Rabid, nasty version wars!
I can't take it anymore!

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Awesome! Really well done :smallyuk:

Susano-wo
2010-11-09, 05:53 PM
I don't have any threads to contribute, but that song is awesome:smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2010-11-09, 06:23 PM
I love the song. Talya, you are awesome a lot.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-09, 06:52 PM
Most impressive, Talya!

However, I realize that you were just given a chocolate cookie. I shall not stand for that injustice!
http://www.cathysdesignercookies.com/cookies/cookie_strawberry_large.jpg

Logalmier
2010-11-09, 06:55 PM
Links for 3.5v4e are broken.

Drothmal
2010-11-09, 07:33 PM
Fixed, thanks

mikau013
2010-11-09, 08:07 PM
<snip>
- Fighters: Powerless or just right?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170630 (out-fit the fighter)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153628 (Monks, Paladins, and Fighters, oh my!)
<snip>

The out-fit the fighter seemed like a very good read since I don't know enough of good items for every lvl :(

- Edit: fixed the grammar

Thurbane
2010-11-13, 07:15 PM
I haven't seen many truenamer threads lately, but the rarely talked about shadowcaster is becoming more common for some reason.
Speak of the devil: what is this 'truenaming' and why does it apparently suck so bad? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175481)

Drothmal
2010-11-13, 08:11 PM
I guess I'm adding truenaming to the list after all...

Any other topics/links that people would be interested in adding? I do want to make this a comprehensive guide

Logalmier
2010-11-14, 10:32 AM
You could have a "What is X" list. I've seen threads on this board such as "What is Swordsage," "What is Truenaming," "What is the Chain Gate Trick," "What is CoDzilla?" ect. I could probably find some links for those.

Thurbane
2010-11-14, 07:30 PM
Thinking of more as I see them...another failry common one is "What music do you listen to while gaming".

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175901&highlight=music
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166200&highlight=music
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164966&highlight=music
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143415&highlight=music

Drothmal
2010-11-15, 02:00 PM
That's useful! Thanks for the help

Actually, I had a question: Is there a maximum number of times I can edit the first post? I haven't had any trouble yet, but I seem to remember someone complaining about it before...

I was wondering if we should include alignment discussions. I wanted to stay away from them at first, but it would seem that we have come to a pause on the other subjects

dsmiles
2010-11-15, 02:04 PM
How about the various monthly homebrew threads that crop up.

Currently, this one:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175913

Logalmier
2010-11-15, 04:48 PM
I was wondering if we should include alignment discussions. I wanted to stay away from them at first, but it would seem that we have come to a pause on the other subjects

You already have topics that often lead to locks (Monk Junk, Wizard vs Everything else, Fighter vs Wizard...) so I'd say throw alignment in there as well. After all, this is a guide for people to look at to prevent these sorts of topics from cropping up.

Drothmal
2010-11-15, 07:51 PM
Updated:

New truenaming link
Added homebrew to the list


Are there any representative alignment threads that must be included no matter what?

Drothmal
2010-11-16, 04:56 PM
Updated:

Added a link for Alignments, starting with "Evil - what is and what isn't" that is being discussed

Are there any other good threads out there for any of the topics? I would appreciate any input since I don't want to be annoying people by bumping my own thread...

Kurald Galain
2010-11-16, 05:19 PM
You should probably remove the &highlight= tags from the URLs in your first post.

Also, why no link to the Ice Cream Thread? Awwww!!!

dsmiles
2010-11-16, 05:31 PM
You should probably remove the &highlight= tags from the URLs in your first post.

Also, why no link to the Ice Cream Thread? Awwww!!!

I believe that the Great Ice Cream Debacle Debate Thread has gone the way of the dodo, my friend.

arguskos
2010-11-16, 05:32 PM
I believe that the Great Ice Cream Debacle Debate Thread has gone the way of the dodo, my friend.
No, CHOCOLATE! :smallfurious:

:smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2010-11-16, 06:15 PM
I beliebe you meant Strawberry. Chocolate is the way of the foolishness of youth.

Drothmal
2010-11-16, 08:25 PM
You should probably remove the &highlight= tags from the URLs in your first post.

Also, why no link to the Ice Cream Thread? Awwww!!!

I didn't include a link to the Ice cream Thread because is literally the first line after the OP, so I assumed that people would read it immediately without further prompting

And, has anyone ever tried Dulce de Leche Icecream? I simply love it

I'm not sure I know how to remove the highlights from the URLs, any advice?

Thanks!

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 04:47 AM
As an enthusiastic starter of alignment threads, here's a few- you can decide if you want to link to them or not:

Paladins "punish those that harm or threaten innocents", but what counts?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173592

Logic & Alignment statements
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173743

Evil as a mirror of Good
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168731

Chaos as self-centred, Law as selfless
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168818

How evil does somebody need to be in D&D, to have an Evil alignment?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161040

What alignment is somebody who has only 1 of the 2 "necessary" Good traits?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168502

Are NPCs always aware of their own alignment?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150347

Can "acts of neutrality" change a (Good or Evil) character to Neutral?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157367

turkishproverb
2010-11-17, 04:54 AM
Can "acts of neutrality" change a (Good or Evil) character to Neutral?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157367
Here is a Quote

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

:smallamused:

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 05:21 AM
The Zap Brannigan quote does tend to crop up whenever people discuss Neutral. :smallamused:

Drothmal
2010-11-17, 03:53 PM
Thanks for all the alignment links! If nothing else, this thread has been pointing out a lot of very very interesting reading material!!!

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 03:57 PM
Another couple:

How to explain alignments for newbies? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176271)

and


Defining the boundaries between Law, Chaos, and Neutrality (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176270)

dsmiles
2010-11-17, 05:38 PM
Another couple:

How to explain alignments for newbies?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176271

and

Defining the boundaries between Law, Chaos, and Neutrality
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176270

That's not fair, you start most of the alignment threads! :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 05:40 PM
True- I was in a hurry and didn't want to wade through the archives picking out the alignment threads one by one. So I checked "threads started by me".

I would like to see links to some of the other threads that are focused on alignment in general, rather than just alignment for the paladin- besides mine.

I remember there being an awful lot of paladin threads, though.

Rasman
2010-11-17, 05:47 PM
you are TOTALLY killing around 30% of the threads on the boards now :smalltongue:

Rather than just linking the threads, I'd also [ QUOTE ] highlights from them, so you don't have to go digging for the big stuff. It'll also give this more depth and make it a more pertinent thread.

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 05:59 PM
Can be difficult to pick out something for quoting though:

More threads:

Why is alignment a mechanical component? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173378&highlight=alignment)

Obviously Evil (Yet another alignment thread) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164560&highlight=alignment)

Alignment "Contradictions" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158669&highlight=alignment)

Misinterpretation of alignment? (LE) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153610&highlight=alignment)

Humans tend toward no alignment... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141834&highlight=alignment)

Can you be wrong about your own alignment? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136439&highlight=alignment)

How does having an alignment system affect your game? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133555&highlight=alignment)

Evil Deities & Alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126160&highlight=alignment)

Why alignment is terrible- a brief essay (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110836&highlight=alignment)

dsmiles
2010-11-17, 06:12 PM
I bet you started at least two of those. :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 06:16 PM
I bet you started at least two of those. :smalltongue:

Nope- I specifically picked those as ones I didn't start.

I did post in nearly all, though :smallamused:

Not in the very last one though "Why alignment is terrible- a brief essay".

dsmiles
2010-11-17, 06:18 PM
I did post in nearly all, though :smallamused:
Of course you did. You and I post in nearly all of the Alignment/"Wish Upon a Falling Paladin" threads. (You more than me, though. :smalltongue: But mostly because I have a strange attitude towards objective alignments.)

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 06:22 PM
Of course you did. You and I post in nearly all of the Alignment/"Wish Upon a Falling Paladin" threads. (You more than me, though. :smalltongue: But mostly because I have a strange attitude towards objective alignments.)

I'm mostly OK with the concept of objective alignment as described:

(if a person is evil aligned, everyone, whether they believe particular acts as evil or not, will detect him as evil unless there's some special magical circumstance)

and some acts always counting as evil.

But I like all the greyer areas of alignment- Evil characters with restraint, Good characters who are willing to sacrifice the innocent in the fight against evil, and so on, rather than a simple black-and-white approach.

dsmiles
2010-11-17, 06:25 PM
I'm mostly OK with the concept of objective alignment as described:

(if a person is evil aligned, everyone, whether they believe particular acts as evil or not, will detect him as evil unless there's some special magical circumstance)

and some acts always counting as evil.

But I like all the greyer areas of alignment- Evil characters with restraint, Good characters who are willing to sacrifice the innocent in the fight against evil, and so on, rather than a simple black-and-white approach.

I, personally, only use it because it makes the mechanics easier, but I prefer a subjective morality system. It makes Smite Infidel (and/or Smite Heretic) more fun.

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 06:45 PM
One Dragon issue (323) did have a wide ranger of alternate Detect spells as replacements for Detect Evil.

They were:

Detect Attitude (friendly to hostile)

Detect Guilt (specifically, guilty feelings)

Detect Heresy (being must be of your own faith, and actions or thoughts opposed to the dogma or teachings of it, are detected)

Detect Violence (acts committed in the recent past, up to 1 month back per caster level)

This was spoofed in that issue's Nodwick:

"Detect Hooey"

"Detect Bad Investment"

"Detect Marketing"

"Detect whoever raided the cookies and punch you made for when company comes over"


I, personally, only use it because it makes the mechanics easier, but I prefer a subjective morality system. It makes Smite Infidel (and/or Smite Heretic) more fun.

One solution in an objective system- rule that the effects of Smite are not visible. Whether or not it affected the target is known only to the DM.

Complete Adventurer also has the Shadowbane Inquisitor- a LG cleric or paladin PRC that gets a smite ability that can be used on "anyone the inquisitor chooses to designate as corrupt".

That said, playing with much more subjective alignment could be fun too.

dsmiles
2010-11-17, 07:21 PM
That said, playing with much more subjective alignment could be fun too.I like to use the whole "good vs. good" moral quandary. This LG nation is at war with this other LG nation whose ideas of law and good just don't converge with the first nation's. Those make for some interesting plots. The good-aligned group gets sent to infiltrate this supposedly evil nation, then they find out that they're actually not evil. Good times, good times. (Pun intended.)

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 07:29 PM
The ruthless, innocent-sacrificing Order of Illumination, vs a more Exalted Good paladin order, might work pretty well.

Here, both sides would be aware each was good- yet be opposed enough to attempt to thwart one-another.

dsmiles
2010-11-17, 07:30 PM
The ruthless, innocent-sacrificing Order of Illumination, vs a more Exalted Good paladin order, might work pretty well.

Here, both sides would be aware each was good- yet be opposed enough to attempt to thwart one-another.

I can see that. The Children of the Light Order of Illumination vs an organized group of Fists of Raziel or something.

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 07:39 PM
While it's Marines rather than paladins, this Bolter & Chainsword forum sketch- spoofing a scene from the Armageddon War novel Helsreach:

The mission was to kick ass.

And Grimaldus said: "Brother Templars, let us kick ass!"

But the Salamanders said: "We must save the citizens!" and did not join the Templars in kicking ass.

So Grimaldus took out the mission statement and hit the Salamanders over the head with it. And he said: "It says here in plain Gothic: "KICK ASS". Those citizens will die anyway, because if you hadn't noticed, the whole world is going to hell in an Orky handbasket. But if we kick ass, maybe it won't ALL go into the said handbasket."

But the Salamanders said: "That's just how we roll, yo. Bros before hos. I mean, saving Imperial lives before kicking ass." And they still wouldn't join the Templars in kicking ass.

That upset Grimaldus, and he thought of beating the Salamanders up with his diamond pimp cane. But he didn't want to scratch it up.

So instead he simply said: "Get out of my city".

And the Salamanders did, because it was obvious that in five minutes Grimaldus wouldn't care about scratching up his diamond pimp cane at all.

is, I think, a bit like this kind of conflict- and pretty hilarious.

Going back to the thread topic- are there any alignment threads you recall as exceptionally interesting, and that you think would deserve to go on the front page?

dsmiles
2010-11-17, 08:01 PM
Going back to the thread topic- are there any alignment threads you recall as exceptionally interesting, and that you think would deserve to go on the front page?I'm getting pretty into the popular culture one, and I like the one where we were talking about the 'natural' tendencies of uncontrolled mindless undead a couple of months ago. Sadly, I can't remember the title of that one.

hamishspence
2010-11-18, 03:58 AM
Here's an older one on undead:

The Ethics of Undeath: Undead & Alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139324&highlight=Alignment)

Thurbane
2010-11-18, 10:46 PM
A couple more topics have popped up on page one and jogged my memory of oft recurring threads -

Guns/Firearms in 3.5:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176438

What are your favorite non-core books:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176488