safety nuts, what to do about this agonizing nuisance.

[nihilism]

our society is plagued by safety zombies. They shuffle around, unable to move with speed due to muscle atrophy after they discovered a link between moving and minor injury.

normally you gather together with your uninfected comrades behind your hastily constructed barrier stockpile ammunition etc and defend yourselves from the horde. (disclaimer, nihilism has a bizarre sense of humor and does not in anyway advocate shooting safety conscious people (unless they are actual zombies.))

but what do you do when your friends are infected?

i mean someone comes up with a cool plan for a group of semi responsible almost adults to construct a raft and drift down a slow moving river for a few days and some safety dude says "oh no i don't think thats a very good idea, how about for a safe and fun alternative we go to the playground (not this one) and play on those bouncy, wooden toy boat thingies.

(ok that was an exaggeration he suggested a canoe trip, but it was still a "safe" alternative).

now normally in such situations you just walk away and laugh at the silly ass
but what do you do if the silly ass in question has known you for years and has your email address?

any thoughts? any other stories from the safety apocalypse?

[Jack Squat]

Not wanting to stifle adventure, but have either you or any of your friends had experience in crafting and piloting a raft?

As a preface, I do a lot of risk management. I participate in quite a few riskier hobbies (I don't think I'm in one that death is entirely uncommon) and I've taken a few first aid/responder courses, so I tend to have an eye for this sort of thing.

If you guys do this regularly and would just be adding in the whole camping aspect, then go ahead. I'm assuming you're all competent swimmers (if you aren't, forget this raft trip and learn to swim. It's an essential life skill - especially if you're planning on being around water), so the worst that would happen when going down a stream -not rapids - would be that the lashings break apart and you're stranded, with no supplies, out in the wilderness. This is a horrible recipe for success.

First off, I want to ask how old your troupe is. I'm going to guess about mid-teens the "almost adult" bit. While I know a few kids who could survive on their own for a couple days (I ran with that crowd), I'd suggest maybe grabbing someone's older brother who happens to be an eagle scout, esp. if none of you have ever had to camp before.

Do any of you have experience in lashing together rafts? The knots can be a bit tricky for someone who's not done it before, and you need to be able to compensate for a few days worth of gear. Remember that you're going to need tents/tarps, bags, food and a half of what you eat (if you can reliably fish/gather food, pack back-up food), a couple ways to start a campfire, and that you can't drink water out of the river. A first aid kit is all but a necessity as well, as you'll probably be outside of the normal 15 minute response time in an emergency, if you can even get cell reception. Spare clothes are a good idea too, since you'll be around water.

Also be sure to plan your route. Know your ways out if you need to make an emergency exit. Know anything particular about the area (such as if there's active wildlife that would be drawn to food in your camp or if areas are prone to flooding) Know what needs to be done if an emergency occurs. Panic is the worst thing that can happen in a time of stress, and it kills more people than the actual accidents.

I don't think your friend is being unnecessarily cautious - If none of you have any experience making rafts, then canoeing may be a better option as stability of your craft is one less consideration you have to worry about*. Doesn't mean you have to do it (where's the fun in only doing the best options?), but it is something to consider.

*Not always the case. My friends and I totally overloaded a canoe for a five mile row to a hiking trail - as in twice the weight limit with all of us aboard. Last minute plans were made for two of us to rent a 2 man kayak and take a couple bags. The canoe still almost flipped in the rough water :smalltongue:

EDIT: Whoah. Sorry for the wall of text.

[Eldonauran]

*chuckles as he considers his response*

:smallconfused: Not sure how to phrase this in a PC manner.

Life is about acceptable risks. Those that take them and come out on top deserve the reward. Same goes for those that take extreme risks and those that take no risks. I have respect for the acceptable risk takers and absolutely no sympathy for the others. I am also a fan of the term 'darwin-award'.


comes up with a cool plan for a group of semi responsible almost adults to construct a raft and drift down a slow moving river

Semi-responsible adults? You lost me at semi. No such thing as semi-responsible when you are doing something like this. You are either prepared or not. If you ask me, risk =/= reward in this instance. Lots of things can happen on a trip like that.

[nihilism]

Plenty of precautions taken: yes
very well constructed raft: yes
experience with camping: yes
redundancies on all things: yes
plenty of necessary stuff: yes
backup canoe: yes
keeping weight in mind: yes
rather slow moving river: yes
read huckleberry fin: yes
admittedly i am a terrible swimmer.

guy still being annoyingly safety obsessed: yes


out of curiosity what hobby where death is not entirely uncommon?

[Jack Squat]

Plenty of precautions taken: yes
very well constructed raft: yes
experience with camping: yes
redundancies on all things: yes
plenty of necessary stuff: yes
backup canoe: yes
keeping weight in mind: yes
rather slow moving river: yes
read huckleberry fin: yes
admittedly i am a terrible swimmer.

guy still being annoyingly safety obsessed: yes


out of curiosity what hobby where death is not entirely uncommon?

Hiking, backpacking, swimming (open water), boating, scuba diving/snorkeling, and rock climbing. I'm starting to get into caving, and if I get time/money, I'm going to learn to skydive and fly.

You can get by without being a good swimmer if you always keep a lifejacket on when on the raft, but they're rather uncomfortable and swimming's good anyways. Other than that, sounds like you're set. If you can't convince your friend that you're taking reasonable precautions, and everyone else has clearance from parents/guardians to do it, then just go and have fun - he doesn't need to be a part of it if he's going to complain the whole time about how unsafe the whole thing is.

[nihilism]

awesome, i have been caving once or twice its an incredible experience.

[Uncertainty]

Personally, I don't see the issue... It's your choice to go, and his to stay.

I don't see why it would necessarily have to mean an end to a long friendship either, unless all of your leisure activities are on the extreme side (at least from his view). I personally have different friends who I do different things with, and few (if any) of them actually share every interest of mine.

Apologies if I misinterpreted the intent of your post.

[nihilism]

any other stories of a safety obsessed world?

[Kastanok]

It's the right of every man, woman and child to throw themselves into the arms of near-certain death should they wish. If anything, it makes for more fodder for the Darwin Awards.

The weird thing about health and safety nuts is that they're usually vastly overstating the risks and issuing decrees which the actual H&S experts would baulk at. 'Just use your common sense!' they say.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[Mathis]

What exactly is your friend focusing on? My tip would be to actually listen to what he is saying and either show him what you have done to cover those areas, or what you plan on doing to cover those areas. Because ignoring his warnings sounds like an incredibly stupid thing to do and should qualify you for the darwin-award nominations.

Now, I know nothing of his degree of responsibility and knowledge about safety. Nor do I know anything about yours, so giving good, specific, advice is a difficult thing to do. But Jack Squat has already given some great advice on this matter, and I'll repeat what he said about swimming: learn it! Especially when going rafting, even in a slow moving river. Undercurrents are dangerous things, and especially when you're fully clothed and possibly carrying backpacks with gear. I'm going to assume you are responsible enough to be wearing floating-vests however, something that should cover most situations when on water. They are light and do not obstruct your movement, so they should not be something left out of your collection of gear.

Canoing is a great, no fantastic, way of experiencing nature however. You're moving slowly enough to be able to see nature, and you're moving quietly enough not to scare away animals. Not to mention that you can still have accidents in canoes, they can overturn if you're being careless.

I hope you and your friends have a great time though, spending days in nature are a fantastic way of spending your early years with friends. Remember to bring a camera!

[Sipex]

While I understand the dislike for safety nuts (like the mother selling air filters telling me the air is more toxic for my child than a can of paint for example) I think you may be blowing this guy out of proportion.

He just thinks rafting is too dangerous (and as such you just don't bring him along, or tell him to canoe alongside you guys), unless he's insisting that everyone have easy evac kits, first aid training, helmets, pads, protective cups, life jackets, CPR training, water wings, rope, safe words, fake safe words, etc I would lay off on him a bit.

[smellie_hippie]

any other stories of a safety obsessed world?

I'm a co-director at a low to high ropes course during the summer. Lowest element being about 25 feet and the highest being 70+.

Do I let someone else belay? No, unless they have been properly certified, and then I am always the backup belayer.

Do I jump down throats for someone letting ropes/gear touch the dirt? Hell yes.

Do I inspect my safety knot and backup knot before every climber? yes

Now you may ask yourself whjy I do all of these things after having 7 years of experience. The reason is I have a ZERO INJURY/INCIDENT record... and I intend to keep it. This includes having a large host of playgrounders at my ropes course with fairly good quantities of beer! You are not climbing if you have been drinking. Period.

[pendell]

It's the right of every man, woman and child to throw themselves into the arms of near-certain death should they wish. If anything, it makes for more fodder for the Darwin Awards.


IMO, the 'right' to throw oneself into certain death is directly proportional to one's willingness to bear the consequences of that decision. Example: Do you have the right to risk your life in a car? Well, are you the one who's going to pay for the car repair if you wreck it? If it's mom or dad who pays for the repairs, or the hospital bill, then I would suggest you don't have such a 'right'. I would suggest that one has far less 'right' to take risks with someone else's money than they do with their own.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sipex]

(Reply to smelly hippie)

See? That I wouldn't call a 'safety nut' either, that's your job.

Unless obsessing about safety is impacting your life and others significantly in a negative manner then it shouldn't be a problem.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I think one mother in particular stands out in my mind as being the worst ...

Shrill voice: Get him OUT of that garden! There must be a hundred things that he's allergic to just in that very bed!

Now, I know the kid ... and the mum :smallsigh: I know that he isn't allergic to anything. She just doesn't trust anything which hasn't been sterilised to dangerous levels. Her children are both spoilt rotten and suffering because of it, btw :smallannoyed:

[Kastanok]

IMO, the 'right' to throw oneself into certain death is directly proportional to one's willingness to bear the consequences of that decision. Example: Do you have the right to risk your life in a car? Well, are you the one who's going to pay for the car repair if you wreck it? If it's mom or dad who pays for the repairs, or the hospital bill, then I would suggest you don't have such a 'right'. I would suggest that one has far less 'right' to take risks with someone else's money than they do with their own.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

If you're going to end up injurying/killing yourself then do it on the cheap? I quite agree. :smallamused:

As I understand it, a person's rights only extend so far as they do not... impinge on the rights of another, so I would agree that the above scenario wouldn't be fair. So long as you minimise the harm - financial, physical and psychological - to others, though, it's all fair game.

So if you were walking on a cliff's edge, maybe just for the thrills, and you accidentally fell to your death that would be just alright by my mind. Careless, perhaps even unfortunate, but fair and just. If however you survived, causing air-sea rescue to come out and pick you up - risking their lives and costing an awful lot in fuel, equipment etc - and then spent months in hospital and possibly the rest of your life being aided and supported by friends, families and care workers... that would be... well, reprehensible.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I've gone well off topic.


I think one mother in particular stands out in my mind as being the worst ...

Shrill voice: Get him OUT of that garden! There must be a hundred things that he's allergic to just in that very bed!

Now, I know the kid ... and the mum :smallsigh: I know that he isn't allergic to anything. She just doesn't trust anything which hasn't been sterilised to dangerous levels. Her children are both spoilt rotten and suffering because of it, btw :smallannoyed:

Isn't that kind of paranoia one of the most damaging things you can do to a child? Keeping them from encountering viruses in their early life resulting in them not growing resistant and suffering much worse in later years; raising them in a general atmosphere of, well, fear of the world; creating stress in the child and in yourself and limiting the child's experience and exploration of the world around.

We have been raising children for millions of years. Yours (not yours, I'm speaking to a figurative persona) yours will survive sitting in the marigolds.

[nihilism]

the worst is the people who fear they're children will be kidnapped if they walk anywhere, so what do they do? get in the car kids!

lets trade an incredibly low risk of death activity and replace it with a far higher risk of death activity that leads to fun things like heart disease later!

almost as bad are the people obsessed with not eating scary potentially disease ridden things like sashimi or what have you and then they hop over to macdonalds for a transfat ball

[llamamushroom]

the worst is the people who fear they're children will be kidnapped if they walk anywhere, so what do they do? get in the car kids!

lets trade an incredibly low risk of death activity and replace it with a far higher risk of death activity that leads to fun things like heart disease later!

almost as bad are the people obsessed with not eating scary potentially disease ridden things like sashimi or what have you and then they hop over to macdonalds for a transfat ball

The difference in that last scenario being that, unless it's a really good restaurant close to a port, food poisoning is fairly likely. So, basically, they're going for lower life-expectancy over reasonable possibility of mild-to-severe pain in a few hours. I think that's called Instant Gratification culture.

Now, personally, I'm a bit of a safety nut, which is more to do with my intense fear of heights than anything else. Whenever I'm in a country with different water-treatment standards than my own (i.e. all of them) I use those alcohol hand sanitizer things before eating, and never drink tap-water. Why? Because I know what can happen if I don't (first-hand experience being an excellent teacher). Maybe if your body is used it to, go ahead, but I don't particularly like spending 17 hours locked in a hotel bathroom, thank you very much.

There's a reason for all safety precautions. Or, at least, there should be.

[nihilism]

The difference in that last scenario being that, unless it's a really good restaurant close to a port, food poisoning is fairly likely.

ok bad example, even though food poisoning from sashimi is a tad rare I live on the prairie and eat it all the time.

a better example would be the time the mother of the friend who thought the raft idea was dangerous, was a tad shocked by the tablespoon of whisky in the huge pan of tiramisu, admittedly that doesn't with the macdonalds thing.

[llamamushroom]

ok bad example, even though food poisoning from sashimi is a tad rare I live on the prairie and eat it all the time.

a better example would be the time the mother of the friend who thought the raft idea was dangerous, was a tad shocked by the tablespoon of whisky in the huge pan of tiramisu, admittedly that doesn't with the macdonalds thing.

Shocked by whiskey in tiramisu? That's not safety-conscious, that's... I don't even know. Tiramisu without whiskey is a crime against humanity! :smallwink:

Also, good for you about the sashimi thing, then. Which begs the question: why are there good Japanese restaurants "on the prairie"? (he asks, under the impression that "the prairie" is a mixture between the Wild West and Oklahoma!, which is reasonably unlikely)

[CynicalAvocado]

out of curiosity what hobby where death is not entirely uncommon?

sudoku? for people wit brains more developed than mine

[Coidzor]

I think one mother in particular stands out in my mind as being the worst ...

Shrill voice: Get him OUT of that garden! There must be a hundred things that he's allergic to just in that very bed!

Now, I know the kid ... and the mum :smallsigh: I know that he isn't allergic to anything. She just doesn't trust anything which hasn't been sterilised to dangerous levels. Her children are both spoilt rotten and suffering because of it, btw :smallannoyed:

mmm, yay for people who shouldn't have kids having kids.

[THAC0]

Paranoid people are annoying.

Taking a reasonable level of precaution is not annoying.

I engage in activities that are inherently high-risk, so I tend to be less accepting of adding risk to that. YMMV. :smallbiggrin:

[Cobra_Ikari]

I like people more cautious than me. My friend once pulled me aside from doing something stupid 3 seconds before it would have crushed my head.

...I should be more careful. >.>

[Project_Mayhem]

Generally, health and safety is boring, unnecessary, and lame, right until the point where something goes wrong and you lose an arm.

While no-one likes a killjoy, good risk assessment is really important.

[Generic Archer]

I come across as rather blase when it comes to safety... not entirely true though.
I'm a rock climber and have tried a lot of 'extreme' sports, risk is nothing new to me, and while I'll take sensible precautions, helmets, ropes (sometimes =p) etc. I don't spend time worrying about the risks of gear failure, second guessing myself, and I'm more than happy to trust the set up that someone else has put in...

Thing is that I'll often not wear a helmet on easy or vertical/overhanging stuff where a bad fall is very unlikely... I take that risk, but as I don't do the assessment out loud most people just assume that I never wear one...

In this, the worst that will happen if the raft breaks up is that you head to shore and repair it, or walk out... guess what, Those are the same options as if you use canoes.
I say ditch the guy, or let him come in a canoe if that's his preference

[nihilism]

just to be clear i am all in favor of reasonable precautions.

quoted from a safety website

"the ever present threat of germs (I actually kept hand sanitizer handy for all those visitors that wanted to hold my baby)." thats just obsessive.

i really hate all of these "(insert name) the safety (insert animal)
now remember kids always wash your hands after patting the safety dog

[Om]

any other stories of a safety obsessed world?Countless, if you read the tabloids. Behind every story of "elf 'n' safety", however, is typically shrill scaremongering, misinterpretation and an obsession with outliers. The latter would include taking a single quote about hand wash and spinning it into some sort of culture that is unhealthily (hah) obsessed with safety

[Morph Bark]

guy still being annoyingly safety obsessed: yes


out of curiosity what hobby where death is not entirely uncommon?

:smallconfused: I don't see how suggesting a canoe instead of a raft is "safety obsessed". It's quite far from "moving very slow to avoid papercuts or a stubbed toe".

Also, what would this raft be made of? If it is made of a lot of loose parts, I can see his concern, especially if he or others can't swim very well (which you admit to).

[Asta Kask]

out of curiosity what hobby where death is not entirely uncommon?

Try as I may, I can't see anyone dying from hobby-related issues at our RPG sessions.

[Kastanok]

Not unless you throw those dice real hard. :smallamused:

[Jack Squat]

In this, the worst that will happen if the raft breaks up is that you head to shore and repair it, or walk out... guess what, Those are the same options as if you use canoes.
I say ditch the guy, or let him come in a canoe if that's his preference

Not quite right. While both options have the same risk options attached, a professionally made canoe has less of a chance of failing than a home-built raft, so it's a safer option.

Also the consequences are loss of gear and personal injury, which could be a real problem depending on how remote of a location they go.


I don't see how suggesting a canoe instead of a raft is "safety obsessed". It's quite far from "moving very slow to avoid papercuts or a stubbed toe".

Since nihilism stated that he (or another member of his group) has experience building rafts, which would greatly reduce the risk of something going wrong structurally. It was also stated that they'll be bringing a canoe along as "back-up", which is a good effort to minimize consequences if the raft does fail. The friend who's saying that the idea is dangerous (presumably) isn't taking these into consideration before drawing a conclusion - he's looking at what could go wrong, and not the chances that they will nor any precautions being taken. That's being safety obsessed.

The other option would be that the friend is unaware of any pertinent information beyond "We're going to build a raft and go camping down X River"; in which case he has a reason to be concerned, since he's dealing with an incomplete set of information.

[Serpentine]

The difference in that last scenario being that, unless it's a really good restaurant close to a port, food poisoning is fairly likely.I live on a plateau 3 hours away from the nearest port. I regularly eat sushi from a local takeaway shop called Delicious Noodle. Haven't been sick from it once.
I've also made my own, but that's always the day I buy it from the fishmonger.

I despise all those ads that scare people into sterilising their homes. Your house does not need to be hospital-grade sterile. Hospitals are hospital-grade sterile, and they have golden staph!

My sister has a policy of, when her young son falls over, laughing at the accident until/unless he makes it clear that he is genuinely hurt.

I sank a canoe once. A bunch of friends and my dog and I were paddling across the lake. Only 2 could sit in the canoe at a time, though, so the rest swam beside. Half-way across we decided to swap. There was miscommunication, it got pulled over too far, and it filled right up with water. Thankfully it stayed at the surface, and we were able to raise it up a little bit (the edges were an inch or two above the water). Then we had to drag it the rest of the way across the weir...
My stepfather drove past on a speedboat to "check [we]'re okay". Then he kept going :smallannoyed:

[THAC0]

Try as I may, I can't see anyone dying from hobby-related issues at our RPG sessions.

OD on mountain dew and funions?

[Destro_Yersul]

Whenever I'm in a country with different water-treatment standards than my own (i.e. all of them) I use those alcohol hand sanitizer things before eating, and never drink tap-water. Why? Because I know what can happen if I don't (first-hand experience being an excellent teacher).

Canada has good water. I should know, I live here. :smalltongue:

The standards may be different, but I narrow my eyes at your implication that different is worse.

[Dada]

Canada has good water. I should know, I live here. :smalltongue:

The standards may be different, but I narrow my eyes at your implication that different is worse.

Not really what he is saying. Different bacteria lives in different areas of the world, and your body is used to those from your native area. The quality of the water needs not matter, if you are not used to the local fauna contained in the water, then you can easily get sick.

[Destro_Yersul]

it looks implied. And thus, eye narrowing shall commence, whether I am correct or not. If that's what he meant, he should have phrased it differently.

[Amiel]

What you need are headcrabs, this will undoubtedly solve the problem :smallsmile:

[The_JJ]

Try as I may, I can't see anyone dying from hobby-related issues at our RPG sessions.

Obviously, you LARP with pansies.


I sank a canoe once. A bunch of friends and my dog and I were paddling across the lake. Only 2 could sit in the canoe at a time, though, so the rest swam beside. Half-way across we decided to swap. There was miscommunication, it got pulled over too far, and it filled right up with water. Thankfully it stayed at the surface, and we were able to raise it up a little bit (the edges were an inch or two above the water). Then we had to drag it the rest of the way across the weir...

Bah. You need to learn how to pull off a midwater recovery. Basically the idea is to rock the boat, tip it up, break the seal, let 'er drain, flip 'er again and try to climb in without repeating the process.

... I'm nowhere near as qualified as that made me sound.


Let's see, I remember, this one time in Thailand. I'm... ten at this point. We're rafting on a big river, and stop over for lunch. Entertainment? Stick us kids in their life vests, have one guide release 'em into the current, and have the other try to catch them further on downstream. Fun times.

[Serpentine]

Well gee, that's nice to know.

TEN YEARS AGO! :furious:

[Tyndmyr]

Try as I may, I can't see anyone dying from hobby-related issues at our RPG sessions.

I would like to second "you larp with pansies".

However, for tabletop RPGs...it could happen. Last session, had a player what wanted to kill somebody. He brought a gun and everything.

Everything's dangerous. It isn't so much what you do as how you approach it. Canoeing can be fun. Ditto rafting. Do whatever ya'll are comfortable with, and do some contingency planning, and you'll be fine. I've done the canoe thing as well. With some practice, it's actually pretty easy. Kayaks, even better, provided you didn't forget the skirt at home. Then it starts to suck.

[Sipex]

I would like to second "you larp with pansies".

However, for tabletop RPGs...it could happen. Last session, had a player what wanted to kill somebody. He brought a gun and everything.

Everything's dangerous. It isn't so much what you do as how you approach it. Canoeing can be fun. Ditto rafting. Do whatever ya'll are comfortable with, and do some contingency planning, and you'll be fine. I've done the canoe thing as well. With some practice, it's actually pretty easy. Kayaks, even better, provided you didn't forget the skirt at home. Then it starts to suck.

Whoa what?

This has a story and it must be told!

...for information purposes obviously.

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, a laptop was swiped is all. A laptop with years of campaign notes. So, instead of playing the group ajourns with the goal of tracking it down and getting it back. One player promises to bring weapons so we can go "shoot them all". We tell him in no uncertain terms that we want to find the laptop, not shoot it.

He shows up with a loaded gun anyhow, and an extra mag of hollow points. He claims he's ready. We refuse to leave until he goes back home and puts it all away. He finally does so. We find the laptop easily enough later(pw protected...it got turned back in as "lost" later that night), so it's got a happy enough ending.

Ironically, crazy player plays the talky character who tries to diplomacy everything. The rest of us play the characters who happily shoot our way through problems. Go figure.

[Sipex]

And everyone always tells us to watch out for the quiet guys.

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, nothing about him is quiet.

He wasn't angry. More of really enthusiastic. Not a bad guy, just doesn't always think things through before doing them. At all.

[doctor_wu]

How can you stand to taste bottled water. Anyway some of it is just tap water put in bottles.

If you want good water think about that when moving to an area and get an area with a good water supply.

[_Zoot_]

I live on a plateau 3 hours away from the nearest port. I regularly eat sushi from a local takeaway shop called Delicious Noodle. Haven't been sick from it once.
I've also made my own, but that's always the day I buy it from the fishmonger.

I despise all those ads that scare people into sterilising their homes. Your house does not need to be hospital-grade sterile. Hospitals are hospital-grade sterile, and they have golden staph!

Interestingly enough, they have cases of extremely serious disease there because of the rigorous sterilising, it kills every thing but the very worst. Of course for all the people that die of Golden Staph and the other really really bad infections, there would be a thousand times the deaths if they were not sterilised...

The same in no way applies to the home, in fact sterilising everything will leave you open to infection as you will have little exposure in which to form immunities. Still, some precaution should be taken in the home, cooking areas and implements should be kept clean and one might want to use something such as alcohol rub if a family member is sick with something.

[Serpentine]

Yes, of course sterilisation is necessary in hospitals. But unless you're performing open-heart surgery on your kitchen bench, it's unnecessary and destructive to have your home hospital-clean.

[Mystic Muse]

Yes, of course sterilisation is necessary in hospitals. But unless you're performing open-heart surgery on your kitchen bench, it's unnecessary and destructive to have your home hospital-clean.

Still good to keep it clean though. You do have to eat and even if you're not actually eating off the counter, I can't imagine it's bad to clean it every once in a while. Plus, dirty counters ruin my appetite.

Also, yes, I should be in bed by now but super mario 64 was calling.:smalltongue:

[Serpentine]

Clean is fine (if overrated). "THIS PRODUCT IS HOSPITAL-GRADE AND WILL KILL 99.99% OF GERMS USE IT EVERYWHERE EVEN ON YOUR TELEPHONE AND OTHER UNNECESSARY PLACES OR YOUR CHILDREN WILL DIE", not so much.

[Mystic Muse]

Clean is fine (if overrated). "THIS PRODUCT IS HOSPITAL-GRADE AND WILL KILL 99.99% OF GERMS USE IT EVERYWHERE EVEN ON YOUR TELEPHONE AND OTHER UNNECESSARY PLACES OR YOUR CHILDREN WILL DIE", not so much.

Yeah, that's a little much.

Although, cleaning appliances you constantly use every so often isn't a bad idea either. The difference between toilets and your phone? Your toilets get cleaned.

Of course, that's not the only difference but you get my point.

And now, I'm going to bed. Nighty night.

[Serpentine]

Meh. Germs are good for your health. I only clean the loo for aesthetic reasons, anyway.

[THAC0]

Meh. Germs are good for your health. I only clean the loo for aesthetic reasons, anyway.

It doesn't need to be cleaned unless it smells or looks dirty! I hate cleaning sooo much.