Murphy's Law 5: To Comic 100...And Beyond! [Archive]

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CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-08, 10:09 PM

...No, I don't know why this is so popular either. :smalltongue:

Hi! Welcome to the fifth thread of Murphy's Law! As you can probably guess, I'm making an OOTS-style webcomic. It's comedic, yet with an ongoing, in-depth storyline. It starts out with a multiclass Fighter/Paladin named Lloyd Zephyr looking to organize an adventuring party, and quickly mushrooms from there into something much bigger...

So, yeah...Enjoy!

MURPHY'S LAW

Current comic:

#114: Guess Who's Not Sleeping Tonight
http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/GuessWhosNotSleepingTonight.png

Archive:

#1: Why I Hate Fanservice (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/WhyIHateFanserviceRedo.png)

#2: Always Use A Pencil (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AlwaysUseAPencil.png)

#3: First Impressions (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/FirstImpressions.png)

#4: Subversions (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/Subversions.png)

#5: Oddly, They Didn't Confiscate His Weapons (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/OddlyTheyDidntConfiscateHisWeapons.png)

#6: This Will Work Out Great! (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ThisWillWorkOutGreat.png)

#7: Off On The Wrong Foot (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/OffOnTheWrongFoot.png)

#8: Well, She IS A Druid (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/WellSheISADruid.png)

#9: Don't Worry, The Weasel's Alright (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/DontWorryTheWeaselsAlright.png)

#10: Not So Rough (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/NotSoRough.png)

#11: Well, This Isn't Foreboding At All! (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/WellThisIsntForebodingAtAll.png)

#12: Captain Obvious (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/CaptainObvious.png)

#13: Rule Of Cool (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/RuleOfCool.png)

#14: Roll A Fort Save (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/RollAFortSavepng.png)

#15: Avenue J (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AvenueJ.png)

#16: Lloyd Zephyr Is Not A Morning Person (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/LloydIsNotAMorningPerson.png)

#17: Actually, Radic Has a Higher Dex Score (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ActuallyRadicHasAHigherDexScore.png)

#18: Digging Yourself Deeper (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/DiggingYourselfDeeper.png)

#19: Kid In A Candy Shop (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/KidInACandyShop.png)

#20: He Really Should Know The Answer To This By Now (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/HeReallyShouldKnowTheAnswerToThisBy.png)

#21: Deja Vu (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/DejaVu.png)

#22: No More (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/NoMore.png)

#23: They're Required To Do This Every So Often (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/TheyreRequiredToDoThisEverySoOften.png)

#24: He, At Least, Didn't See That One Coming (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/HeAtLeastDidntSeeThatOneComing.png)

#25: Tomorrow's Spells Consist Entirely of Cure X Wounds And Atonement (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/TomorrowsSpellsConsistEntirelyOfCur.png)

#26: Seatbelts Help Prevent Whiplash (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/SeatbeltsHelpPreventWhiplash.png)

#27: Say What You Will, But He's Got Style (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/SayWhatYouWillButHesGotStyle.png)

#28: Harmful To Minors (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/HarmfulToMinors.png)

#29: Matt's Best Chance (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/MattsBestChance.png)

#30: At This Rate, He'll Command An Entire Army By The End Of The Comic (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AtThisRateHellHaveAnArmyByTheEndOfT.png)

#31: And You Thought Rogues Got Buckets Of Skill Points (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AndYouThoughtRoguesGotBucketsOfSkil.png)

#32: All In Good Time (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AllInGoodTime.png)

#33: It Doesn't Start With "U" Either (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ItDoesntStartWithUEither.png)

#34: At Least He's Warm (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AtLeastHesWarm.png)

#35: Genki If There Ever Was One (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/GenkiIfThereEverWasOne.png)

#36: Ad Campaign (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AdCampaign.png)

#37: This Happens Every Few Weeks (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ThisHappensEveryFewWeeks.png)

#38: Gonna Need More Duct Tape (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/GonnaNeedMoreDuctTape.png)

#39: Critical Communication Failure (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/CriticalCommunicationFailure.png)

#40: Insult To Remus (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/InsultToRemus.png)

#41: That She Lasted So Long Is A Miracle In Itself (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ThatSheLastedSoLongIsAMiracleInItse.png)

#42: She Didn't Mean The Liches Or Necromancers (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/SheDidntMeanTheLiches.png)

#43: Meanwhile, Thousands Of Miles Away (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/MeanwhileSeveralThousandMilesAway.png)

#44: Matt Could Have Told You Years Ago (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/MattCouldHaveToldYouYearsAgo.png)

#45: 240 Proof (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/240Proof.png)

#46: Divination, How I Love Thee (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/DivinationHowILoveThee.png)

#47: A Rare Quiet Moment (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ARareQuietMoment.png)

#48: A Familiar Occurrence (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AFamiliarOccurrence.png)

#49: Think Fast (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ThinkFast.png)

#50: Miss Exposition (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/MissExposition.png)

#51: Iris Said To Squick Him Out (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/IrisSaidToSquickHimOut.png)

#52: Every Single Time (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/EverySingleTime.png)

#53: He Didn't See Panel Five (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/HeDidntSeePanelFive.png)

#54: All Aboard The Plot Train (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AllAboardThePlotTrain.png)

#55: Ursa Saphrin (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/UrsaSaphrin.png)

#56: But Seriously, They're Safe (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ButSeriouslyTheyreSafe.png)

#57: Story Arcs Start Slow (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/StoryArcsStartSlow.png)

#58: Presumably For His Height (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/PresumablyForHisHeight.png)

#59: Like Electric Guitars, But More Explodey (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/LikeElectricGuitarsButMoreExplodey.png)

#60: On Patrol (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/OnPatrol.png)

#61: They Should Schedule A Meetup (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/TheyShouldScheduleAMeetup.png)

#62: That's Fewer Than Half (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ThatsFewerThanHalf.png)

#63: Mission Possible (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/MissionPossible.png)

#64: Matthew "Deathwish" Silver (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/MatthewDeathwishSilver.png)

#65: Baby Steps (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/BabySteps.png)

#66: Denial Ain't Just A River (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/DenialAintJustARiver.png)

#67: The Best Wizards Are Unpredictable (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/TheBestWizardsAreUnpredictable.png)

#68: But It Just Might Work (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ButItJustMightWork.png)

#69: Unexpected Greeting (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/UnexpectedGreeting.png)

#70: Why I Won't Use Foreign Languages (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/WhyIWontUseForeignLanguages.png)

#71: Not Private Enough (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/NotPrivateEnough.png)

#72: Paladins Can Bluff Too (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/PaladinsCanBluffToo.png)

#73: Some Would Say Yes (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/SomeWouldSayYes.png)

#74: A Fitting Punishment (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AFittingPunishment.png)

#75: Come On, Let's Get Real (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ComeOnLetsGetReal.png)

#76: Ostensibly Heroic Kleptomaniac (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/OstensiblyHeroicKleptomaniac.png)

#77: She's Conflicted Too (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ShesConflictedToo.png)

#78: Not A Bluff Check (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/BluffCheck.png)

#79: Resolutions, Wishes, And Prayers (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ResolutionsWishesAndPrayers.png)

#80: Knowledge: Religion (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/KnowledgeReligion.png)

#81: No, She Wasn't Listening Before (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/NoSheWasntListening.png)

#82: As The Stories Say (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AsTheStoriesSay.png)

#83: Collective Guilt (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/CollectiveGuilt.png)

#84: Fir Saw It Coming (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/FirSawItComing.png)

#85: She'll Actually Be Sensible For Once (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ShellActuallyBeSensibleForOnce.png)

#86: Talk About Timing (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/TalkAboutTiming.png)

#87: I Don't Know Either (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/IDontKnowEither.png)

#88: The Montage Mobile (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/TheMontageMobile.png)

#89: Golden Eagle Shipping And Trading (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/GoldenEagleShippingAndTrading.png)

#90: More Appropriate As Comic 99 (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/MoreAppropriateAsComic99.png)

#91: Dun Dun DUN (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/DunDunDUN.png)

#92: The Abridged Edition (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/TheAbridgedEdition.png)

#93: Ever Heard Of Milgram? (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/EverHeardOfMilgram.png)

#94: They're Serious (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/TheyreSerious.png)

#95: Tin Soldiers And Kago's Coming (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/TinSoldiersAndKagosComing.png)

#96: Help, Help, They're Being Repressed! (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/HelpHelpTheyreBeingRepressed.png)

#97: What Did You Think (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/WhatDidYouThink.png)

#98: Lockstep (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/Lockstep.png)

#99: Hyperbole? (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/Hyperbole.png)

#100: Don't Cut Your Hands (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/DontCutYourHands.png)

#101: A Paladin, Not A Killing Machine (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/APaladinNotAKillingMachine.png)

#102: Fair For Its Time (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/FairForItsTime.png)

#103: Bad Time To Haggle (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/BadTimeToHaggle.png)

#104: On That Note, It's Lamplight (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/OnThatNoteItsLamplight.png)

#105: A Bit Of An Inside Joke (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/ABitOfAnInsideJoke.png)

#106: Astrid's Seal Of Approval (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AstridsSealOfApproval.png)

#107: No, I Don't Know The Spell (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/NoIDontKnowTheSpell.png)

#108: Mr. Fixit (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/MrFixit.png)

#109: Just As He's An Angel (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/JustAsHesAnAngel.png)

#110: What They'll See (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/WhatTheyllSee.png)

#111: News To Them (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/NewsToThem.png)

#112: Awesome By Analysis (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/AwesomeByAnalysis.png)

#113: Would Be More Dramatic If They Had Chairs (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/MoreDramaticIfTheyHadChairs.png)

Please critique!

BONUS: Oh! In case you didn't know, I'm originally from the Crack Pairings Thread. So, I love it when people do crack pairings and stuff of this comic! In fact, I'll post it on here! Just make sure that it obeys board rules and the like, okay?

Stuff by me! :smallbiggrin::

Cleric Vs Cleric (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/JanineVsHyperion.png)

Johan and Janine (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/JohanAndJanine.png)

Inevitable Murphy's Law Beach Episode :smalltongue: (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/IASummer.png)

Young Radic and Aludean (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/YoungRadic.png)

Stuff by ShinyDelusion:

“Went down your--” Lloyd began to say.

“And that is all I’m going to say about it,” Matt cut him off flatly.

“Whatever,” said Lloyd, looking at Matt’s weasel-inflicted wounds critically, “You should probably go get Janine to heal you.”

“Can’t paladins heal?” Matt asked, not sure where Janine was and in no mood to search for her while every scratch on his body was still smarting.

“The technique’s called ‘Lay on Hands’,” Lloyd replied neutrally.

“Oh,” said Matt. A few seconds of silence passed. “This sucks,” he added in a grumble.

“More than max security?” Lloyd asked as a reminder.

“No,” said Matt darkly, staring broodingly into the middle distance.

---

It was two years ago, back when he was just learning how to get away with things and had recently tried to put a red streak in his hair. The hair was a minor fiasco—he’d bleached first and the red dye wasn’t strong enough, leaving the streak an embarrassingly pretty purplish pink; maybe he should try blue next time—but he was getting to be a really good rogue. Or so he thought.

In retrospect he realized that he probably shouldn’t have been so cocky—after all it was already the sixth time he’d been caught stealing and he’d only been at it a few months—but back in those days he’d felt like he could do anything, like he was untouchable. Sure, he’d gotten thrown in the local jailhouse once or twice, but those cells were a joke; he watched a party full of Level 2 adventures with not a rogue among them break out in ten minutes flat once. Of course, those were the lowest security cells, not max. He didn’t know yet that when they threw you in max, you weren’t getting yourself out any time soon unless you were epic level or something.

That day, the day he got caught for the sixth time, they threw him in max.

“I really am sorry, kid,” the warden had told him grimly, “But today we got three adventuring parties filled with chaotic types who thought they’d found the second easiest way to get some extra gps; the cells are packed, so you’re going to have to go in max.”

“Whatever,” Matt muttered.

A little annoyed by the boy’s indifference, the warden added, “Just so you know, your cell mate got life for massacring a relatively peaceful group of kobold merchants for the XP and…” He gulped. “Accessorizing opportunities.”

“Whatever,” Matt repeated. Wait a minute, what about accessorizing?

“He gets violent when we try to remove things from his cell,” he went on, now honestly angered by the boy’s lack of interest, “Such as the beheaded corpses of former cell mates…”

“What do you mean--” Matt began to ask, a little panicked, before regaining his cool. “You’re making that up just to scare me.”

“If only,” the warden said with a sigh, “I suggest you just try to have a conversation with him; some say the solitude’s made him snap. Ah, here we are.”

At first Matt thought his cellmate was a kobold. Then, gagging, he realized what the warden had meant by “accessorizing opportunities”.

“How’s it going, Killer?” the warden asked with false joviality.

Clutching a human skull pointed at the warden, the filthy Halfling shrieked, “Fireball! Fireball now, or I’ll give you something to Fear you worthless undead piece of crap!”

“This is your new roomie!” the warden continued, forcing himself to smile in the hope that the Halfling would calm down, “His name is Matthew Silver.”

Matt was too terrified to correct him.

While the Halfling did something partially hidden but, Matt feared, definitely obscene to the skull that wouldn’t obey his commands, the warden very quickly unlocked the cell, shoved Matt in, and relocked it.

“I really am sorry,” the warden told Matt again, “If one of those parties breaks out, I’ll get you out of here pronto, but…” He glanced at the Halfling. “It’d be a lie to tell you anything but this: From here it can only get worse.”

He left Matt alone with this thought. And the delusional, psychopathic Halfling.

It took several minutes for the Halfling to get bored with… what he was doing with the skull, but once he did, he took an immediate interest in Matt.

“You don’t look like max security material,” he told the boy smugly, “I guess without the Belkster out there to show ‘em how it’s done, the standards are dropping.”

Matt could manage nothing but a deer-in-the-headlights expression. At this point he was so scared he was barely even breathing.

To his wide-eyed horror, the Halfling began to approach him, picking up a severed head that was lying on the floor by its silvery hair on the way.

“Let’s get a few things straight,” the murderer said, “When they bring the grub in, your plate goes to Mr. Scruffy.” He began stroking the hair on the head affectionately. “Of course none of the stuff here’s good enough for his carnivore tastes, but he’s gotta eat eventually, and when he finally gets hungry enough, he is not going to starve on your account. Got it, wuss?”

Matt managed a nod. Living to see suppertime would be blessing enough. Glances around the room had let him count six different heads, and worryingly he’d only been able to spot four of the respective bodies…

“You really are a wuss, you know? You really shouldn’t be here…” As if too distracted by this revelation to hold his concentration on other things, the Halfling dropped the head known as “Mr. Scruffy.” He stared at Matt. For a long time.

“Aha!” Before Matt had time to realize anything was happening, the Halfling had him pinned to the ground and was yanking on a lock of his hair.

“Thought you could get a way with that?” the Halfling raved. The hand that wasn’t gripping Matt’s hair began fishing around in his grubby pockets for something. “Oh… I’ll do you for that, you androgynous twit…”

“Wh-what?!” Matt sputtered. Through the haze of pain the hair-pulling was spreading through his skull, he thought that the victimized hair might be that stupid attempt at a red streak, not that that was even remotely important right now…

“Come off it, Ears,” the lunatic snapped, yanking what appeared to be a sharpened spoon out of his pocket, “Your friggin’ lame disguise has failed epicly.” His eyes gleamed. “Then again, you always were one for epic failure, weren’t ya, pal?”

“What are you talking about?” Matt asked desperately. And, what did he mean by “Ears”? His voice now laced with disgust, he added, “You think I’m an elf?”

“I said come off it,” the Halfling repeated sharply. Then, to Matt’s surprise, he let go of his hair and his expression softened. “I guess I should’ve stopped bringing it up, after you told us everything that happened, but it was just too good; you finally admitted you screwed up.”

“Oh, I see,” Matt snarled, “An arrogant prick of an elf. Why you--”

“It was worth it, too,” the Halfling continued, now mostly ignoring Matt, “When you just kept blowing stuff up, especially when Roy was throwing hissy fits all the time because we wouldn’t knock it off. But then,” now his face flushed with rage, “You frickin’ set me up in this dump of a town with a frickin’ epic level prison!” He refocused his gaze on Matt. “And of course you had to come back and gloat,” he added, his voice cold.

“Dude,” said Matt, “I don’t even know what you’re talking about, and I’m not an elf! I hate elves!”

“Nice try, Ears,” said the Halfling, “But you really should have chosen a disguise that looked like it actually belonged in max security.” With a disturbing suddenness, the Halfling grinned. “Since you obviously can’t break out of this cell anymore than I can… Do you know what they do to pretty, purple-haired little elf-boys like you in prison, Vaarsuvius?”

“It’s Matt,” Matt spat, but his face was paling.

Brandishing the lethally sharp spoon, the madman said, “Because I’m about to show you.”

---

One of the adventuring parties did break out eventually, and the warden came to move Matt to another cell as he promised, in the nick of time, at that. Whenever Matt looked back on the whole incident (usually after waking up from a graphic nightmare) he shuddered to think what might have happened had he been left in there longer, but nonetheless wished that he could have been moved sooner.

In the weeks following his stay in prison Matt improved as a rogue very quickly. Before it’d been all about the loot but now he’d learned to focus on not getting caught. He decided he was never going to prison again and would do whatever it took to stay out of maximum security.

---

“Did you just have a flashback?” Lloyd asked Matt accusingly.

“Yeah,” said Matt, “Got a problem with that?”

“I’m the main character and I’ve already hinted at a dark and interesting backstory,” Lloyd said hotly, “I’m supposed to get the first flashback!”

Matt smirked. From here it could only get better.

“Nice try, Ears,” said the Halfling, “But you really should have chosen a disguise that looked like it actually belonged in max security.” With a disturbing suddenness, the Halfling grinned. “Since you obviously can’t break out of this cell anymore than I can… Do you know what they do to pretty, purple-haired little elf-boys like you in prison, Vaarsuvius?”

“It’s Matt,” Matt spat, but his face was paling.

Brandishing the lethally sharp spoon, the madman said, “Because I’m about to show you.”

“Nooooooo!” Matt cried upon abruptly waking, sitting straight up. Rubbing his eyes, he said gruffly but a little sheepishly, “Sorry, I know that’s one of the most annoying clichés in the book, but…” He looked around him. All three of the other adventurers were still asleep. “Okay… Nevermind.” Shuddering a little and trying to push the nightmare out of his thoughts, he slowly lied back down.

“Mmm… Glad you think so Lloyd… Now come here…”

“What?” Matt sat back up, looking around himself again. Everyone was still asleep. He glanced at Lloyd. Nope, definitely not doing anything to Janine. He glanced at Janine—

“Oh, Lloyd, I think I’m wounded…”

“Wounded?” Matt repeated, raising an eyebrow. He’d never heard that one before.

“You must Lay Hands on me…”

Oh. That made sense. He should’ve seen that one coming, really. As Janine’s words dissolved into little moans that made him uncomfortable on multiple levels, he lied back again, muttering, “Who seriously talks in their sleep anyway?” and tried to go back to sleep.

“Let me show you another use for Water Drops…”

Water Drops? Matt frowned. Weren’t those those little pills wizards could make out of water that released mouthfuls of water when you chewed on them?

“That’s right, put it there…”

“What the…?” Matt murmured.

“Now squeeze… Ah!”

“Is she…?”

“Mmm… You know, if you’re Good…” There was a little snorting sound that might have been Janine giggling, “The water tastes sweet… Oh, yes…”

“Oh, no…” Matt said with a grunt, rolling over and clutching his stomach. He did not want to hear this.

“I also know another use for—”

“Gah!” Matt cried, clapping his hands over his ears. How am I going to get back to sleep with this show playing in the background? Well, he couldn’t hear her with his hands over his ears, at least. Okay. I can do this… He started taking deep breaths in an attempt to make himself fall asleep faster while keeping his hands over his ears. Though this method wasn’t quite as efficient as he’d hoped for it to be, after about half an hour he felt himself drifting off. His arms relaxed has he sunk into a peaceful slumber, his hands gently falling away from his ears…

“Oh, Lloyd, I didn’t know you were a sorcerer…”

“Huh…?” Matt muttered sleepily.

“There really are a lot of uses for Prestidigitation… Mmm…”

Ba-dum, ting! Matt’s half-dreaming mind supplied for that one liner as he let out a moan of protest. He tried to sit up again, but realized he was already falling asleep, Janine’s words weaving themselves into his dreams…

---

“Nooooo!” Matt cried out again, awaking while sitting bolt upright for the second time that night. Taking deep breaths to calm himself down, he looked around to find that once again he’d failed to wake up the other three adventurers. It wouldn’t have been all that bad, he mused, wiping the cold sweat from his brow, if there hadn’t been so much… Lloyd. After shooting a glare at the now innocently silent Janine, he lied back and was asleep within minutes.

---

Remus raised his head to make his best you-should-feel-guilty sad eyes at the screaming human but to no avail; the little punk didn’t even glance at him. Apparently no one cares if they wake up just a dog in the middle of the night. As Matt went back to sleep, Remus put his own head back down with a self-righteous sniff, but raised it again after a few seconds.

Remus heard a sound. It sounded like an animal sound, but it wasn’t a familiar sound. A weird tp-tp-tp-tp-tping was prowling in a circle around them. The dog scanned the forest as best as he could, a low growl rumbling in the back of his throat. It was hard to tell now that Radic’s friend had started muttering in her sleep again, but after a few seconds it sounded like the tp-tping had stopped. This didn’t make Remus feel any better. Whining a little, he nudged Radic’s arm with his nose.

---

“Urg, Remus…” Radic groaned, batting her companion’s cold nose away from her, “What is it?”

Remus whined and poked her arm with his nose again.

“Okay, okay,” said Radic, sitting up and scratching him behind an ear, “What’s wrong, boy?”

“Mmrr… Lloyd,” Janine murmured, “You can… Desecrate my temple… Anyday…”

“Well that’s nothing new,” said Radic, playing with Remus’ ears, “Did she wake you up?”

Remus sniffed a little and let out another whimper.

“Northern ambush… Gnnh…” Lloyd was muttering, a sheen of sweat shining on his face.

“Oh,” said Radic, glancing over at him, “Poor guy… Wonder what’s going on in there?”

---

Remus settled down with a sigh while Radic sat down near the boy with a horse, stroking his hair occasionally and whispering little sympathetic phrases. It was just his luck that when he tries to warn her about possible danger, she decides she wants to get a head start on mating with something just because it looked pitiful when it slept. Oh well, he still hadn’t heard any more tp-tping, so maybe they were safe after all.

---

Lloyd seemed to be sleeping more peacefully now, and even though the way his face looked so smooth and elegant in the moonlight made Radic feel warm and giddy inside, at last she decided it was time she got back to sleeping too. As she drifted off next to a a sleeping Remus, oblivious to a faint tp-tp-tping sound approaching the camp from a distance, she decided that this was going to be the best campaign ever.

Stuff by Asta Kask

Lloyd looked at the other warrior. He was everything Lloyd admired in a man - self-confident, experienced, tough... yet there was a touch of sadness around him. A feeling that things weren't the way they were supposed to be.

"So, you've been adventuring with these for how long?"

"Oh, we're just starting out. We're looking for a dragon."

The other warrior nodded. He asked a few more questions, and without really knowing how it happened Lloyd suddenly realized he had told the other warrior much more than he intended. Even about Janine...

"I mean, it's like all she wants is sex. Yeah, that's important, but I want something more than that. I want a relationship, and it feels like she'll just go off in search of the next conquest five minutes after she's had me."

"Yes," said the other warrior. "I understand. But let me tell you something - I'm in a relationship with a sylph right now. She's a great girl, but being away from her for so long... you get the itch, y'know. Like this..."

The other warrior leaned over and kissed Lloyd softly on the mouth. Lloyd tensed up at first, then relaxed. He had never dreamt that being kissed by a man could be so wonderful. A whirlpool of emotions welled up inside him and drowned all thoughts of the quests, all thoughts of Janine, all thoughts...

Stuff by CWater
Sketch1 (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Sketch1.jpg)

Sketch2 (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Sketch2.jpg)

Sketch3 (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Sketch3.jpg)

Sketch4 (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Sketch4.jpg)

Sketch5 (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Sketch5.jpg)

Sketch6 (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Sketch6.jpg)

Lloyd Zephyr (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Lloydcolor6.jpg)

Radic Quilla (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Radiccolor1.jpg)

Matt Silver (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Mattcolor2.jpg)

Janine Nova (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Janinecolor3.jpg)

Tinder (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Tindercolor2.jpg)

Serrin Peakane (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Serrincolor1.jpg)

Colourhelp (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/rColourhelp.jpg)

Birthday (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/CBirthday.jpg)

Watchful (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Watchful.jpg)

Why was it at the top of the list again...? (http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Topofthelist.jpg)

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Cautious4.jpg

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Cautious3.jpg

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Kagoans.jpg

Stuff by Herpestidae
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2294/crossoverml1.png

Stuff by Zanaril
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii21/Zanaril/OOTSart/radic.png

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab109/Magpiemanic/miscfanart/LloydZephyr.png

[QUOTE=Zanaril;9895379]http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab109/Magpiemanic/miscfanart/loydxlexington.png

Stuff by Water_Smurf
Your Tired, Your Poor (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6216100/1/Your_Tired_Your_Poor)

Stuff by Symmys
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b444/PaxGemini/Serrin002.png
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b444/PaxGemini/Serrin001.png
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b444/PaxGemini/AULloyd.jpg

Stuff by Elanor Rigby
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa405/Zomp_Jorr/murphyslawpageoneforexportfirsttry.jpg

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa405/Zomp_Jorr/murphyslawpagetwoforexportfirsttry.jpg

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa405/Zomp_Jorr/murphyslawpagethreeforexportfirsttry.jpg

Hope I didn't miss any. Well, enjoy!

EDIT: Look! Banners! (Well, one now, but two more coming! :smallbiggrin:)

http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/Banner1.png
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175170)

Dark Faun

2010-11-09, 11:26 AM

I recall some people complaining that Lloyd was too perfect in the past and with the latest comics, I can't help but agree with them. A prodigy who's almost the only one in the entire Kago army to question the validity of slaughtering the Plavaan to the point of wanting to pray for them, in addition to advertizing himself as having an inborn thirst of justice?

If you don't give him some flaws in the future, don't be surprised if some people flag him as a sue. I don't think they'll settle for "he felt bad about it" for an acceptable flaw. That's actually closer to a virtue.

Asta Kask

2010-11-09, 11:30 AM

Maybe he cheats at Rocks-Scissors-Papers... :smalltongue:

blackjack217

2010-11-09, 11:31 AM

Maybe he cheats at Rocks-Scissors-Papers... :smalltongue:

or he is hopeless at magic... or he did bad things in his past
also coffee? your banner links to the 4th thread.

Marnath

2010-11-09, 12:12 PM

Dark Faun

2010-11-09, 12:17 PM

I hope so, because mister always-does-the-right-thing has been annoying me for a long while. But I expect him to feel bad about whatever he'll do which isn't that much of a genuine flaw.

Allan Surgite

2010-11-09, 12:32 PM

There's the note that a Sue is not an inherently bad character, but is typically one used by bad writer. A well-written "Sue" is just as good as a normal character.

I think it's just a shame that Mary Sue, as a term, had degraded as far as it has.

Dark Faun

2010-11-09, 12:40 PM

I agree. A well-written cliché, for example, is often better than a poorly-written new idea.

I'm not calling him a sue, though I wouldn't be surprised if other people did. I'm calling him boring. Not unlike O-Chul, who can't do anything wrong ever.

Worlok

2010-11-09, 01:07 PM

Not unlike O-Chul, who can't do anything wrong ever.
While technically true, since O-Chul is never wrong, this statement constitutes treading thin ice, I'm afraid - there is nothing O-Chul can't do. :smallwink:

Also:

Considering the accusation of "MURDERER!!!:eek:" I think we're about to see him make a really bad choice.
+1 to that.

(Plus, first time on the thread, so I'll just get it out there: Awesome comic. :smallsmile:)

Lix Lorn

2010-11-09, 01:38 PM

Uh, if there's a mod watching, could you post in the last thread with a link? I only saw this one existed through sheer, utter good luck.

mucat

2010-11-09, 01:50 PM

I hope so, because mister always-does-the-right-thing has been annoying me for a long while. But I expect him to feel bad about whatever he'll do which isn't that much of a genuine flaw.

I'm not sure I follow that last bit. If you commit a serious enough crime, "feeling bad about it" doesn't begin to erase the black mark on your character.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-09, 04:03 PM

I hope so, because mister always-does-the-right-thing has been annoying me for a long while. But I expect him to feel bad about whatever he'll do which isn't that much of a genuine flaw.

I understand what you're thinking, but you don't know the whole story. And he wasn't the one questioning it; the High Priest was explaining it to everyone. And Lloyd's not the only one to question what's going on, but he is the protagonist. Of course we're going to be focusing on him. Besides, he's spend a lot of his military career in private training.

I'm not sure I follow that last bit. If you commit a serious enough crime, "feeling bad about it" doesn't begin to erase the black mark on your character.

Mucat's got it. From both their points of view, nothing Lloyd does will ever be able to make up for it. Some things really are unforgivable.

Also, as we've seen, Lloyd is secretive and has a massive guilt complex. He's actually a bit of a Stepford Smiler if you think about it.

And yes, please post a link. (If it's possible, could you please modify my first post in the old thread to include the new link too? Thanks.)

Anterean

2010-11-09, 05:08 PM

(ignore this : previous content of this particular post was patent nonsense )

Maxios

2010-11-09, 08:12 PM

Ooh! New thread :smallbiggrin:

CWater

2010-11-09, 08:23 PM

Hmm...personally, when I read the comic for the first time, I found Lloyd's character to be a little plain. I had read the story in slight hurry, since I wanted to know what would happen next.:smallbiggrin:

Then I read the strips again, paying more attention to details, and started noticing these small hints about our perfect paladins past and the assumed skeletons in his closet. Now, he's my second favourite character (though Tinder's fighting with him over the position:smallamused:).

...And I've noticed that he's most fun to draw of the characters. I have no idea why, he just is.:smalltongue:

Speaking of which, Coffeee, why are not the coloured versions of 'Watchful' in the fanart list? Do they not deserve to be there?:smallfrown::smalltongue:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-09, 08:44 PM

Geno9999

2010-11-09, 09:00 PM

HOLY:smalleek:
Found a side remark about His past (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/OffOnTheWrongFoot.png). Wow, you planned this from the start, yes?

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-09, 09:12 PM

HOLY:smalleek:
Found a side remark about His past (http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/OffOnTheWrongFoot.png). Wow, you planned this from the start, yes?

Yes. Yes I did. :smallcool:

CWater

2010-11-09, 09:13 PM

Thanks, CWater. And like I said, there's more to his character. You'll just have to wait to see all of it. And crap, I'm sorry. Could you please repost them so I can put them up?
:smalltongue:Sure, here they are:
Behold! My first entirely computer-coloured pic! (Okay, I know there's a lot of improvements that could be done, but hey, everyone's gotta start somewhere!)
It's done from the sketch that I posted a while ago.
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Cautious4.jpg

And one alternative coulouring, which was originally a cause of a mistake, but I thought it looked rather nice, so I just had to save it...
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Cautious3.jpg

Update tomorrow afternoon (Hopefully!). Update on Friday like always. :smallbiggrin:

Yay!:smallsmile: But don't miss anything important over it, as eager as we readers are, we are also patient. ... ...

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-09, 09:41 PM

He no fair you started the 5th thread without me... T^T.... just luck I was browsing the general forum section and saw Murpy's Law 5.

Either way I don't see why all the problem with Loyd, I have always liked him, and I hope his dark past TM. should redempt him in the eyes of the ub-blievers.

:subscribes to new thread:

Say... Coffee would a character popularity poll be unwaranted? just a thought.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-09, 09:45 PM

:smalltongue:Sure, here they are:

Yay!:smallsmile: But don't miss anything important over it, as eager as we readers are, we are also patient. ... ...

Thanks. I'll add your stuff with the update tomorrow.

He no fair you started the 5th thread without me... T^T.... just luck I was browsing the general forum section and saw Murpy's Law 5.

Either way I don't see why all the problem with Loyd, I have always liked him, and I hope his dark past TM. should redempt him in the eyes of the ub-blievers.

:subscribes to new thread:

Say... Coffee would a character popularity poll be unwaranted? just a thought.

If you want to. :smallredface:

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-09, 09:49 PM

blackjack217

2010-11-09, 09:57 PM

1. loyd
2. Serrin
3. Tinder

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-09, 10:00 PM

BTW does anybody knows how to make one of those neat-looking tables? the ones I use in my homebrew are just copy-pasted, and I have never really got the hang of making them from scratch.

blackjack217

2010-11-09, 10:08 PM

link http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313
also kinda off topic

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-09, 10:08 PM

:smallredface:It is for the poll results I swear.
I wanted to know how to make a table to have a neat looking result page for the polls.

blackjack217

2010-11-09, 10:19 PM

Sorry about that then. Did it help?

Strife Warzeal

2010-11-09, 11:04 PM

For the poll:
1. Tinder
2. Serrin (they are tied really)
3. That pair that keep popping up (just need to edit in their names)Have they ever said each other's names actually? Hector(halfling) and Roark(orc).

RdMarquis

2010-11-10, 12:19 AM

Cool, new thread. Anyway, I'm voting for Serrin, Matt, and Iris (if she is a choice).

Lycan 01

2010-11-10, 12:28 AM

Pretty close tie between Matt, Tinder, and Serrin. Probably in that order, if I were forced to choose. I like Rogues, so Matt automatically gets a boost, plus he's a funny character with promise of character growth. Tinder is a frickin' dragon with a kickin' backstory. And Serrin is... Serrin. :smalltongue:

zimmerwald1915

2010-11-10, 12:37 AM

A new thread, a new chance to come out of lurker-dom.

1 Serrin
2 Matt
3 Radic

Marnath

2010-11-10, 01:48 AM

I don't wanna vote. I like them pretty much all the same. o.o

Mina Kobold

2010-11-10, 03:09 AM

A vote?...O_O

VoteVoteVoteVote!

1. Serrin
2. Tinder
3. Saphrin

Dark Faun

2010-11-10, 05:32 AM

I'm not sure I follow that last bit. If you commit a serious enough crime, "feeling bad about it" doesn't begin to erase the black mark on your character.
If he felt bad before, while and after doing the deed to the point he defected and started a new life, that's closer to something that will make the readers like him more or feel sorry for him than dislike him.

Lix Lorn

2010-11-10, 05:44 AM

Serrin,
Saphrin,
Roark!

Asta Kask

2010-11-10, 08:51 AM

CWater

2010-11-10, 12:43 PM

Ooh...voting...

Mine goes to Matt, Lloyd and Tinder!:smallsmile:

Marnath

2010-11-10, 04:22 PM

If he felt bad before, while and after doing the deed to the point he defected and started a new life, that's closer to something that will make the readers like him more or feel sorry for him than dislike him.

Yeah, um....that's the point. If he didn't feel sorry for whatever bad thing he's done, he wouldn't be a very popular protagonist, would he?

zimmerwald1915

2010-11-10, 04:36 PM

Roark
:smallfrown: Fountainhead references :smallfrown:

Lix Lorn

2010-11-10, 04:46 PM

Pardon? (confused)

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-10, 04:46 PM

:smallfrown: Fountainhead references :smallfrown:

Hm? What do you mean a Fountainhead reference?

Update late tonight or tomorrow morning (Hopefully late tonight), then an update Friday evening like always. :smallbiggrin:

blackjack217

2010-11-10, 05:09 PM

*yipee* comic inbound

John Cribati

2010-11-10, 05:24 PM

Yes. Yes I did. :smallcool:
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZZLjYOVCgI)

*ahem*

Anyways... Belated Congrats on new thread! And totally get a website; You now have more threads than V's Gender debates.

Marnath

2010-11-10, 06:12 PM

I still think that might not be a good idea, she could lose traffic if she moves the comic off such a populated site. Plus, don't websites cost money?

blackjack217

2010-11-10, 06:14 PM

Also Evil Not Worth it probably gets far fewer visitors now

Marnath

2010-11-10, 07:16 PM

Add to that, she probably won't want to deal with operating a website when she's up to her eyebrows in college homework. :smallwink:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-10, 07:18 PM

Yeah, no money, no time.

Sorry, but I might end up posting this one early tomorrow morning. :smallfrown: There's a lot of little details that I need to get right and stuff.

blackjack217

2010-11-10, 07:22 PM

quality over quantity

Marnath

2010-11-10, 07:30 PM

Yeah, no money, no time.

Sorry, but I might end up posting this one early tomorrow morning. :smallfrown: There's a lot of little details that I need to get right and stuff.

Don't apologise, if you can't do a bonus strip for the week you can't do it. We'd be fine with just one, and we'd also be fine if you can't update at all for a while. You come first.:smallsmile:

We're not your sponsors, to harrangue you for missing an update like Blind Ferret does to the author of Goblins.

Nageto004

2010-11-10, 08:59 PM

Don't apologise, if you can't do a bonus strip for the week you can't do it. We'd be fine with just one, and we'd also be fine if you can't update at all for a while. You come first.:smallsmile:

We're not your sponsors, to harrangue you for missing an update like Blind Ferret does to the author of Goblins.

I second this.

Silverraptor

2010-11-10, 11:15 PM

Took me a while to realize this thread existed. There was no link in the last one.:smallsigh:

Anyways, ya. Foreshadowed his past right when Matt became part of the group, knew about that already. Favorite characters? Without a doubt, Serrin, Saphrin, and Lucrid. Even though the two others were in for a minor apperance, I always feel an attachment to them. I would've included Luic, but there were only three voting slots.:smalltongue:

Anitar

2010-11-11, 08:31 AM

Votes:

Fir, Iris, and... a half-vote each for Matt and Tinder.

Lord Raziere

2010-11-11, 09:31 AM

I vote.....Matt (because I sympathize with him on soooo many things).....Lucrid (Who DOESN'T like a guy who summons a piano on top of a lich and plays it?)......aaaand.....Saphrin (if only because she is cute and smart.)

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-11, 10:30 AM

I'm really proud of the level of detail in this comic. What do you think?

#95: Tin Soldiers And Kago's Coming
http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/TinSoldiersAndKagosComing.png

EDIT: CWater, I can't quote quotes. Could you please give a direct link?

Asta Kask

2010-11-11, 10:35 AM

And so we have a moral choice. Excellent.

My Lai, anyone? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre)

Draconi Redfir

2010-11-11, 10:36 AM

ok i would like to cast my vote for the halfling with the Sickle:smallbiggrin:

is it wrong i actually thought she was the one Lloid fell in love with because of the way they were looking at one another last comic?

wait.. Lloid was seen training quietly with these guys last comic. why are they only now teaseing him?

Lix Lorn

2010-11-11, 10:42 AM

Oooh... this looks ominous... and the first few panels are so amusing.

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-11, 10:42 AM

blackjack217

2010-11-11, 10:48 AM

lieutenant or captain? which one?

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-11, 10:49 AM

lieutenant or captain? which one?

Good question, I forgot to ask why does the sickle guy refers to Loyd as lieutenant, while the halfling mage as captain

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-11, 10:51 AM

And so we have a moral choice. Excellent.

My Lai, anyone? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre)

*Nods*

ok i would like to cast my vote for the halfling with the Sickle:smallbiggrin:

is it wrong i actually thought she was the one Lloid fell in love with because of the way they were looking at one another last comic?

wait.. Lloid was seen training quietly with these guys last comic. why are they only now teaseing him?

Thought who was the one Lloyd fell in love with? And they're teasing him because...Well, look at the context of the first few panels!

Oooh... this looks ominous... and the first few panels are so amusing.

Thanks!

It looks great Coffee, it seems Loyd's days as the only sane man, come from his Kago days.

I'll try to update the poll in a moment

Edit:Lookie, Dusk learnt how to make tables :smallamused:

Poll Results:
Character | Votes
Radic| 2
Loyd | 3
Serrin| 9
Tinder| 5.5
Roark | 2
Hector| 1
Matt | 4 .5
Iris |2
Saphrin |3
Lucrid | 1
Fir |1
Halfling with sickle from today's comic |1

Yay! And wow, Serrin is popular.

lieutenant or captain? which one?

Captain. I fixed it (It may take a bit to show up though.)

blackjack217

2010-11-11, 10:59 AM

One of the drow reminds me of someone where have I seen her before... :smalltongue:

Allan Surgite

2010-11-11, 11:00 AM

The word "squick" damaged the humorous intentions of the first few panels. Which made the brosquad the appearance of the Drow caravan all the more satisfying. Now waiting for Lloyd to engage with them via the a halberd. Unless it turns out that he didn't do anything to them because he's just that cool, and his squad did all the murdering.

Unless this is the cat scare.

Marnath

2010-11-11, 12:29 PM

Nice comic Coffee! Comments after I get back from lunch and stuff. :smallsmile:

Draconi Redfir

2010-11-11, 12:32 PM

Thought who was the one Lloyd fell in love with? And they're teasing him because...Well, look at the context of the first few panels!

the halfling with the sheild and sickle.

yeah, but they werent doing so last comic. or did "the event" happen in the tents after they made camp?

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-11, 12:36 PM

the halfling with the sheild and sickle.

yeah, but they werent doing so last comic. or did "the event" happen in the tents after they made camp?

It's not the halfling.

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-11, 12:37 PM

Oh is this a plot point? or just some random tid-bit of information regarding Loyd's life?

mucat

2010-11-11, 12:45 PM

And so we have a moral choice. Excellent.

My Lai, anyone? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre)
Both from the title (great title, by the way, Cof) and from the situation, I'm getting more of a Kent State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings) vibe. Angry drow do something aggressive but nonlethal, soldiers respond with lethal force. :smallfrown:

(As opposed to Mai Lai, which was a flat-out premeditated massacre of civilians.)

I like the fact that Coffee gives us time to get to know and like all the members of Lloyd's patrol, before we see what they did. It's too easy to shrug off the impact of that kind of crime if we're allowed to think "only people who are inherently evil are capable of that."

Speaking of the earlier, happier part of the strip...do we still not know who Lloyd's paramour is? "Lexi" could be Alexis or Lexington...and since as of next strip there will be more important issues, I wonder if Coffee set this up so we never find out?

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-11, 12:51 PM

Both from the title (great title, by the way, Cof) and from the situation, I'm getting more of a Kent State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings) vibe. Angry drow do something aggressive but nonlethal, soldiers respond with lethal force. :smallfrown:

(As opposed to Mai Lai, which was a flat-out premeditated massacre of civilians.)

I like the fact that Coffee gives us time to get to know and like all the members of Lloyd's patrol, before we see what they did. It's too easy to shrug off the impact of that kind of crime if we're allowed to think "only people who are inherently evil are capable of that."

Speaking of the earlier, happier part of the strip...do we still not know who Lloyd's paramour is? "Lexi" could be Alexis or Lexington...and since as of next strip there will be more important issues, I wonder if Coffee set this up so we never find out?

Thanks, Mucat. And yeah, that's the vibe I was going for here. And getting to know the soldiers...That was completely intentional. I'm not going for anything so easy as, "They're evil and so that's why they do evil stuff, they drink blood and punt puppies in their spare time." But you already know that. :smalltongue:

And I'm glad you liked the title. I had trouble deciding on a title.

Draconi Redfir

2010-11-11, 01:02 PM

It's not the halfling.

yes i realized that after the most recent comic :P

Lix Lorn

2010-11-11, 01:24 PM

I'm not going for anything so easy as, "They're evil and so that's why they do evil stuff, they drink blood and punt puppies in their spare time."
For the record, that would be an amusing comic. XD

Tulio d Bard

2010-11-11, 01:41 PM

Oh Gosh, there's a pregnant drow there!

Lycan 01

2010-11-11, 01:42 PM

Wait, Lexi as in the Lexington the Half-Elf (Shifter) is Lloyd's spicey lover? :smalltongue:

This can't end well... :smallsigh:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-11, 02:06 PM

Oh Gosh, there's a pregnant drow there!

You caught it! :smallbiggrin:

Wait, Lexi as in the Lexington the Half-Elf (Shifter) is Lloyd's spicey lover? :smalltongue:

This can't end well... :smallsigh:

Or it could be Alexis the wizard.

blackjack217

2010-11-11, 02:18 PM

Or it could be Alexis the wizard.
panel 5 comic 97 the two wizard students are watching him about the romance thing so that makes it unlikely. Also anyone want to bet as to wether or not we have an awkward reunion coming up with some soldiers of Kaigo? cause Loyd is probably considered a deserter or something, right?

Lycan 01

2010-11-11, 02:34 PM

I thought Alexis was the black-haired wizard chick who was watching him with amusement while he was spazzing with joy that "person" accepted his feelings. So, I figured it either wasn't her, or she was spying on him to see how he reacted to her asking him out...

But wait, I forgot, Lexington is a dude... XD

Asta Kask

2010-11-11, 02:42 PM

CWater

2010-11-11, 03:17 PM

I'm really proud of the level of detail in this comic. What do you think?

#95: Tin Soldiers And Kago's Coming
*snip*

EDIT: CWater, I can't quote quotes. Could you please give a direct link?

*slaps forehead* Ack, of course, didn't think of that, here:

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Cautious4.jpg

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Cautious3.jpg

The new comic? Niice, I especially like the scenery, the colour palette used make the place look pleasant:smallsmile: Though I'm afraid it might not remain so for long...?

By the way I'm a little surprised that the Kagoans were actually ordered not to attack the drow unless they meet resistance. Based on the previous comics I thought they didn't really mind using violence agaist the Plavaan.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-11, 03:19 PM

*slaps forehead* Ack, of course, didn't think of that, here:

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Cautious4.jpg

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Cautious3.jpg

The new comic? Niice, I especially like the scenery, the colour palette used make the place look pleasant:smallsmile: Though I'm afraid it might not remain so for long...?

By the way I'm a little surprised that the Kagoans were actually ordered not to attack the drow unless they meet resistance. Based on the previous comics I thought they didn't really mind using violence agaist the Plavaan.

Thanks. And I'm glad you like the environment; it's in the middle of a swamp so I made the place misty and have more swampy colors and there's puddles and stuff on the ground.

Maybe they had a couple of people complain...

Marnath

2010-11-11, 03:24 PM

You caught it! :smallbiggrin:

I'd have been the first to mention it, but I had stuff to do today. :smallbiggrin:
I liked the first part, friends are like that, hehe. They keep us humble. My first impression about the drow was "wow, they really love their bright colors, don't they?" and then the next thing I noticed is "pregnant woman and at least one child, I bet they're going to be killed anyway. :smallfrown:"

But wait, I forgot, Lexington is a dude... XD

So? O.o
Maybe Lloyd is gay, or bisexual.

blackjack217

2010-11-11, 03:29 PM

He can't be gay the love potion affected him

Marnath

2010-11-11, 03:38 PM

He can't be gay the love potion affected him

I forgot about the love potion. Doesn't rule out bisexual though.

blackjack217

2010-11-11, 03:41 PM

I forgot about the love potion. Doesn't rule out bisexual though.

never said it did. Coffee usually steps in with the her word of god in these matters however, I believe the fact that she has not is significant.

Marnath

2010-11-11, 03:44 PM

never said it did. Coffee usually steps in with the her word of god in these matters however, I believe the fact that she has not is significant.

It looks like it's supposed to be up in the air at this point.

Or it could be Alexis the wizard.

Mystery, mystery! :smalltongue:
Honestly, I think this is really a secondary concern vs. "what's about to happen here that earns Lloyd an accusation of murderer?"

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-11, 03:45 PM

You know, I really need to stop stepping in on these manners so much. I prefer rampant speculation. :smallamused:

*Sigh* That's hyperactivity and ADHD for you...

Honestly, I think this is really a secondary concern vs. "what's about to happen here that earns Lloyd an accusation of murderer?"

Listen to Marnath. :smalltongue:

blackjack217

2010-11-11, 03:56 PM

I sorta figured that it invoked innocent people dieing in some fashion or another, probably with soldiers killing them. Also Coffee if you want to both explain and have rampant speculation you could just clear up all speculation that you want to clear up with the next comic post. Also I noticed you dodged the ID question :D

Draconi Redfir

2010-11-11, 04:00 PM

But wait, I forgot, Lexington is a dude... XD

more proof to my theory that Lloid is gay! *shot*

blackjack217

2010-11-11, 04:01 PM

He can't be gay the love potion affected him

What I said, could be bisexual though.

Draconi Redfir

2010-11-11, 04:05 PM

What I said, could be bisexual though.

OR the Kago army used magic to alter his S-orientation after they found out about it :smallwink:

CWater

2010-11-11, 04:11 PM

OR the Kago army used magic to alter his S-orientation after they found out about it :smallwink:

Could be:smalltongue:

...*shudder* I wonder has anyone ever made such a spell... And would bisexuals be immune to it, or would it turn them asexual?:smallconfused::smallwink:
...and vice versa?

dragongirl13

2010-11-11, 04:13 PM

Not only is one of the drow pregnant, but the drow who was scared of Lloyd in the city is clearly visible toward the back of the formation. Same ponytail, same purple and white dress. And there's a drow kid off to the side.

Considering the level of guilt complex Lloyd seems to have, I'm gonna take a guess that he ends up killing either the pregnant drow, the drow kid, or both.

Marnath

2010-11-11, 04:21 PM

Lycan 01

2010-11-11, 04:33 PM

Oooooh, she was there. Ooooh...

Oh.

Uh oh.

Lloyd, what did you do? :smalleek:

Lix Lorn

2010-11-11, 04:34 PM

...
You remember how mad Lloyd was when Matt shot a child..?
Maybe he/his subordinates did it and they didn't survive...

blackjack217

2010-11-11, 04:35 PM

...
You remember how mad Lloyd was when Matt shot a child..?
Maybe he/his subordinates did it and they didn't survive...

you ninja'd me before I even posted, your a super ninja!!

Marnath

2010-11-11, 04:41 PM

Lix Lorn

2010-11-11, 05:03 PM

I just had a terrible idea occur to me. Little kids tend to stand next to their parents when bad things happen, not just anyone right? Well, unless there are more drow off panel...our "drow who lived" is that child's mother. :smallfrown:
And we don't know if there were other survivors.:smalleek:
...
Combined with my theory?
A comic has never made me more desparate to be wrong. ._.

Mina Kobold

2010-11-11, 05:04 PM

I feel really sorry for the Drow girl now, she needs a hug.

*Hugs her and then everybody else here who don't want a hug for good measure*

On a slightly other not I don't think the possibility of it being Alexis out-rules Loyd being bisexual, how do we know they're not like Nale and Sabine? :smalltongue:

Marnath

2010-11-11, 05:07 PM

...
Combined with my theory?
A comic has never made me more desparate to be wrong. ._.

My thoughts too.

Silverraptor

2010-11-11, 08:25 PM

Just posting this to resubscribe. Looking forward to tomorrow's update.:smallsmile:

blackjack217

2010-11-11, 08:49 PM

Just posting this to resubscribe. Looking forward to tomorrow's update.:smallsmile:

As do I, as do I

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-11, 11:07 PM

So am I! :smallbiggrin:

Marnath

2010-11-12, 12:25 AM

I was just reading the old threads, and I noticed that our favorite drow is wearing the same dress as the goddess from your creation story(fortune? I can't tell who is who). Is there a connection?

I_Am_Muffin

2010-11-12, 01:49 PM

ooooo, i applaud Coffee, i haven't seen, an indepth comic full with backstory and plot to boot (backstories are the favorite part of any campaing or character) scince Oots, maybe i'm exaggerating myself, nah, i'm not. Then again I kinda hand out compliments like the hand out projects in my spanish class at school, which is tons by the way. So i can obviously tell from your massive audience, that you have something going on. Good luck with it in the future, keep up the good work. :smallbiggrin:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-12, 03:02 PM

I was just reading the old threads, and I noticed that our favorite drow is wearing the same dress as the goddess from your creation story(fortune? I can't tell who is who). Is there a connection?

Fortune, and it's just a coincidence.

ooooo, i applaud Coffee, i haven't seen, an indepth comic full with backstory and plot to boot (backstories are the favorite part of any campaing or character) scince Oots, maybe i'm exaggerating myself, nah, i'm not. Then again I kinda hand out compliments like the hand out projects in my spanish class at school, which is tons by the way. So i can obviously tell from your massive audience, that you have something going on. Good luck with it in the future, keep up the good work. :smallbiggrin:

Heh, even so, thanks! Hope you continue to read and enjoy.

Worlok

2010-11-12, 03:35 PM

I just had a terrible idea occur to me. Little kids tend to stand next to their parents when bad things happen, not just anyone right? Well, unless there are more drow off panel...our "drow who lived" is that child's mother. :smallfrown:
And we don't know if there were other survivors.:smalleek:
Combined with my theory?
A comic has never made me more desparate to be wrong. ._.
My thoughts too.
Honestly, mine as well. I don't remember having felt so anxious for an update in quite some time. :smalleek:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-12, 05:39 PM

And...Here's the update.

#96: Help, Help, They're Being Repressed!
http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/caffeineincluded/HelpHelpTheyreBeingRepressed.png

John Cribati

2010-11-12, 05:41 PM

Fears Confirmed.

T'is a sad day in the Alavaan Plains.

Draconi Redfir

2010-11-12, 05:42 PM

Duhn Dun DUUUHHNNNN!!!

edit: ninja'ed. that would have been peetter if it was posed immidetly after coffies XD

Marnath

2010-11-12, 05:55 PM

I agree with the DUN DUN DUUUNN!!
Looks like that's not her little girl after all.
OMG dude, he threw mud at you! Shooting him dead is NOT the appropriate response there.:smallfurious:
Who's talking in the last panel?
Is Lloyd supposed to be saying "we will allow you to leave this place unharmed." ?

*edit: thats a rock, not mud. Halfling is bleeding. STILL MURDER, FOOL!

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-12, 05:58 PM

Fears Confirmed.

T'is a sad day in the Alavaan Plains.

Yeah...:smallfrown:

I agree with the DUN DUN DUUUNN!!
Looks like that's not her little girl after all.
OMG dude, he threw mud at you! Shooting him dead is NOT the appropriate response there.:smallfurious:
Who's talking in the last panel?
Is Lloyd supposed to be saying "we will allow you to leave this place unharmed." ?

*edit: thats a rock, not mud. Halfling is bleeding. STILL MURDER, FOOL!

Actually, it was a rock, but still.

*Sigh* Yeah, it is. I'll fix it later. And that's the drow girl and Lloyd talking, and the person giving orders.

Marnath

2010-11-12, 06:07 PM

And that's the drow girl and Lloyd talking, and the person giving orders.

Like, in the present day? Or back then? I'm still not sure about the flow of the last panel.

Allan Surgite

2010-11-12, 06:08 PM

Marnath

2010-11-12, 06:09 PM

Also: that's a pretty sharp rock. Evidence continues to accumulate for calm and collected reasoners, not children to attend any form of event which is made worse by violence.

Pretty hard to do anything about though, since they probably live right there.

I_Am_Muffin

2010-11-12, 06:35 PM

Duhn Dun DUUUHHNNNN!!!
Yea, i agree, lets a little more tho: Dhun Dun dun dun dun duhn dun DUUUHHNNNN!!! (Somewhere far away a glass of wine breaks)
Yea, that was pretty suspensful, sadly it was the little boy who would bring about the massacre,by throwing a dirt-like rock at someone, that is shorter then them, maybe. Also while making a joke, heh heh. I mean, poor halfling, no wait he shot a kid.:smallyuk:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-12, 06:44 PM

That might have been more clear if we'd seen them speaking in those colours before. I thought Orchid-Speech was the drow dressed in orchid, and had no idea who Grey-Speech was.

Also: that's a pretty sharp rock. Evidence continues to accumulate for calm and collected reasoners, not children to attend any form of event which is made worse by violence.

Orchid-Speech is the drow, and that's Lloyd's speech in silver.

Yea, i agree, lets a little more tho: Dhun Dun dun dun dun duhn dun DUUUHHNNNN!!! (Somewhere far away a glass of wine breaks)
Yea, that was pretty suspensful, sadly it was the little boy who would bring about the massacre,by throwing a dirt-like rock at someone, that is shorter then them, maybe. Also while making a joke, heh heh. I mean, poor halfling, no wait he shot a kid.:smallyuk:

Lycan 01

2010-11-12, 06:46 PM

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-12, 06:50 PM

So Lloyd is saying he doesn't remember who gave the order to attack? The "!" seems like its something he just doesn't want to admit he remembers, and would rather forget about.

Roy was in charge - and only the commanding officer can give an order like that. :smallfrown:

Read the title: "Help! Help! They're Being Repressed!" It was either him or Lieutenant Percy who gave the order to attack...

And what do you think of what just transpired? :smallfrown:

blackjack217

2010-11-12, 06:54 PM

Lycan 01

2010-11-12, 07:18 PM

Oh, double meaning. The Drow are being repressed... and so are his memories.

I think its a tragic and believable tale, told quite well. Good job, Coffee.

Though, I'd have expected a bit more verbal reaction from the kid getting killed. But I guess the Drow were too shocked... and the "good guys" were used to it. :smallsigh:

Marnath

2010-11-12, 08:38 PM

Read the title: "Help! Help! They're Being Repressed!" It was either him or Lieutenant Percy who gave the order to attack...

And what do you think of what just transpired? :smallfrown:

I don't remember anyone named Lt. Percy.:smallconfused:

Are you asking Lycan specifically, or a more general question? Because basically what I think about it is :furious:

Also, I'd like to ask: are drow colorblind in your world? Because they sure dress in brightly clashing colors.

Strife Warzeal

2010-11-12, 08:42 PM

A'Kent's dump stat was intelligence wasn't it? based off his brilliant idea.

Marnath

2010-11-12, 08:59 PM

A'Kent's dump stat was intelligence wasn't it? based off his brilliant idea.

You're confusing Intelligence with Wisdom.

Apparently the img tags don't work which is weird because the picture still exists here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8561143&postcount=519). First one. Makes the point nicely.

Geno9999

2010-11-12, 10:16 PM

...Oh dear.
So many lives... Massacred right there.

Anyway, some other topic, did Lloyd ...uh... "wash some orangutans? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfYouKnowWhatIMean)" Because right there could be the reason why he's so chaste: He's already got one love and she's still in Kago. I wonder if she'll make any appearances...

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-12, 10:20 PM

You're confusing Intelligence with Wisdom.

Apparently the img tags don't work which is weird because the picture still exists here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8561143&postcount=519). First one. Makes the point nicely.

HA! I love that! :smallbiggrin:

...Oh dear.
So many lives... Massacred right there.

Anyway, some other topic, did Lloyd ...uh... "wash some orangutans? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfYouKnowWhatIMean)" Because right there could be the reason why he's so chaste: He's already got one love and she's still in Kago. I wonder if she'll make any appearances...

Yeah...

And yes, he did, uh, "Scrub the monkey."

Marnath

2010-11-12, 10:24 PM

Dark Faun

2010-11-13, 05:34 AM

I wonder if we'll see a ruthlessly cynical Kago paladin who's all "When you murder innocents, it doesn't matter whether they attacked first or not" and mocking Lloyd with a "What, you just found out?" when he's outraged.

Asta Kask

2010-11-13, 06:51 AM

Read the title: "Help! Help! They're Being Repressed!" It was either him or Lieutenant Percy who gave the order to attack...

Doesn't really matter, does it? It's the CO's responsibility anyway.

Dark Faun

2010-11-13, 07:13 AM

Not to mention a real paladin would execute their subordinates on the spot if they murdered an innocent.

Allan Surgite

2010-11-13, 07:20 AM

Define "real." The realest paladin in the real world were the Knights Templar.

And everyone knows they are pros.

Dark Faun

2010-11-13, 07:26 AM

Real paladins as in Lawful Good, suffer no injustice and protect innocents first and foremost whatever their species at any cost. Bumping uglies is optional but having a stick so deep up your ass it's coming out the other way is mandatory.

blackjack217

2010-11-13, 07:31 AM

That sounds like miko :smalleek:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-13, 07:32 AM

Not to mention a real paladin would execute their subordinates on the spot if they murdered an innocent.

But they're goblins, orcs, and drow. Everyone knows they're nothing but evil.

Dark Faun

2010-11-13, 07:37 AM

Sarcasm doesn't suit you.

That sounds like miko :smalleek:
More accurately what she was trying to be.

Mina Kobold

2010-11-13, 10:00 AM

Not to mention a real paladin would execute their subordinates on the spot if they murdered an innocent.

That. Is how you lose your way.

Killing because you think it's just is exactly what the Kagoans are doing, who is a paladin to decide that murder is a clear sign that someone is irredeemably evil and doesn't deserve to get another chance?

In my honest opinion, Loyd shows us that even a paladin of Kago can be redeemed :smallsmile:

Dark Faun

2010-11-13, 10:19 AM

I suppose you could look the other way and let the murders continue.

Silverraptor

2010-11-13, 10:53 AM

I suppose you could look the other way and let the murders continue.

No. Now, now, Discord. Paladon's don't always execute people. Locking them up for a long time, possibly life, will do just as well.

CWater

2010-11-13, 10:54 AM

...So, all the drows got butchered? Well, it's not like I didn't see that coming, but a massacre of innocents is never...pretty.:smalleek:

!*artistic senses tingling* Hmm, I think the background of a certain pic I'm working on just got redesigned...:smallamused:

By the way, I wonder how that drow from the present day got away? Did she play dead and Lloyd & Others didn't bother to check?

Dark Faun

2010-11-13, 11:01 AM

Maybe Lloyd let her get away while none of his subordinates were looking. Might explain why he seemed to recognize her, other than the clothes.

No. Now, now, Discord. Paladon's don't always execute people. Locking them up for a long time, possibly life, will do just as well.
But it doesn't look as badass. What's the point of having a sword if you don't summarily behead people with it? :smalltongue:

Silverraptor

2010-11-13, 11:07 AM

But it doesn't look as badass. What's the point of having a sword if you don't summarily behead people with it? :smalltongue:

*Takes out sword*

I knight thee as, *Taps either side of the shoulder gently* Sir Discord, Paladin of the... wait, you think all swords are used for killing things? What's the matter with you?!:smalltongue:

blackjack217

2010-11-13, 11:12 AM

Or you could be the paladin who recognizes his fallible nature and is not blinded by pride. He does not assume that he is always right, nor that his manner of living is the only just way to live, nor that he has a right to smite those who he disagrees with. In short be Loyd

Mina Kobold

2010-11-13, 11:51 AM

I suppose you could look the other way and let the murders continue.

I suppose you could do that, better kill anyone that might be or become a murderer then.

My point wasn't that you should ignore them, only that you should work toward making them a valuable part of society instead of sinking to their level.

In other words, stealing from a thief is still stealing. Murdering a murder is still murder.

Marnath

2010-11-13, 12:32 PM

I feel compelled to mention that this might be before Lloyd took paladin levels. They could all just be soldiers.

Dark Faun

2010-11-13, 12:38 PM

Paladin appears to be more of a title than a class in Kago.

I suppose you could do that, better kill anyone that might be or become a murderer then.

My point wasn't that you should ignore them, only that you should work toward making them a valuable part of society instead of sinking to their level.

In other words, stealing from a thief is still stealing. Murdering a murder is still murder.

I disagree completely, but for the sake of staying on topic I won't continue this conversation unless it's brought up in the actual comic.

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-13, 04:17 PM

:smalleek: Wow.... talking about over-reactions.... Right now I don't know what to say... Loyd clearly acted in accordance with this troops (see his expression in panel 6, it changed from a :smalleek: to a :smallannoyed:).

Also love the :smalleek: expression on the snake, I really love this kind of details you put on the comic Coffee.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-13, 04:52 PM

I feel compelled to mention that this might be before Lloyd took paladin levels. They could all just be soldiers.

No, any commanding soldier in Kago is a paladin, as in the class. Lieutenant Percy and Captain Lloyd of this squad both have levels in Paladin. The Kagoan infantry is about 55% foot soldiers, 30% land cavalry (Mostly warhorses/warponies), 15% Wyvern Knights.

I suppose you could do that, better kill anyone that might be or become a murderer then.

My point wasn't that you should ignore them, only that you should work toward making them a valuable part of society instead of sinking to their level.

In other words, stealing from a thief is still stealing. Murdering a murder is still murder.

There's a difference between vigilante justice and actual justice. You can't put the law in the hands of one person; that's just asking for disaster.

You do things the legal way, with a trial, with equal protection for all. That's why we take time to collect evidence. That's why we offer even the worst criminals a lawyer. That's justice.

Or you could be the paladin who recognizes his fallible nature and is not blinded by pride. He does not assume that he is always right, nor that his manner of living is the only just way to live, nor that he has a right to smite those who he disagrees with. In short be Loyd

Yes. But you see that even though the potential was always there, it's been squashed for pretty much his whole life...

...So, all the drows got butchered? Well, it's not like I didn't see that coming, but a massacre of innocents is never...pretty.:smalleek:

!*artistic senses tingling* Hmm, I think the background of a certain pic I'm working on just got redesigned...:smallamused:

By the way, I wonder how that drow from the present day got away? Did she play dead and Lloyd & Others didn't bother to check?

Yeah...

Ooh, and I'd like to see that. And you'll find out! :smallbiggrin:

Mina Kobold

2010-11-13, 05:21 PM

There's a difference between vigilante justice and actual justice. You can't put the law in the hands of one person; that's just asking for disaster.

You do things the legal way, with a trial, with equal protection for all. That's why we take time to collect evidence. That's why we offer even the worst criminals a lawyer. That's justice.

I never said anything about vigilantes (I could, but we'd be here all week :smalltongue:) just my opinion on how criminals should be treated :smallsmile:

Completely agree with not letting one person rule supreme, sadly that's usually the case with paladins.

Worlok

2010-11-13, 05:34 PM

Those last three panels... Wow. At first we see Lloyd's sudden change of expression, then we have that one panel of ominous, uneasy silence, and then the dialogue in the last one, without any visuals... :smalleek: Great comic. Chilling, but great.

(Part of the tragedy is that if anyone had spoken up in that second to last panel, the slaughter may have been avoided. After all, both the thrown stone and the lethal arrow were the actions of individuals, not even acting on any orders. I think.)

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-13, 11:35 PM

Worlok

2010-11-14, 01:05 AM

Thank you, Worlok.
You're welcome.

If only...But even then, would it have stopped them? Things were tense, and when the tension breaks like that...
True, it's not likely they would have stopped, but it's possible. Granted, the one person who would have been in a position to stop them would have been Lloyd himself (or arguably the fourth of their group, the one not in the last three panels, I keep forgetting his name), what with the other paladins readily responding to the stone throw and the Drow simply not being the attacking party in the end, but I figure that's yet another reason he doesn't like to talk about that time... (Did the scene just get more devastating? :smalleek:)

Lycan 01

2010-11-14, 02:32 AM

Worlok

2010-11-14, 03:14 AM

True again. Sure, one might argue that it was simply a moment's reaction on the team being attacked. Still nothing to be proud of and certainly a reason to not go into detail about it.

RdMarquis

2010-11-14, 04:26 AM

Guess it's better that the last panel was blacked out. Knowing what Lloyd and his comrades did was bad enough without seeing it (or most of it). What really disturbed me here was the third panel. Am I misinterpreting his comment, or is Lloyd looking for an excuse to attack?

Dark Faun

2010-11-14, 08:27 AM

I presume the "and..." was going to be followed by something along the lines of "they're unarmed and killing civilians is bad."

Say, is Lloyd frowning at the archer for killing the kid or at the drows for "attacking?"

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-14, 09:00 AM

That's a good point, Worlok. By not ordering them not to attack, Lloyd might as well have given the order to attack. :smalleek:

Sitting back and letting evil things happen isn't neutral - its just as bad, since you do nothing to stop it. And Lloyd did nothing to stop this... :smallsigh:

Exactly.

Guess it's better that the last panel was blacked out. Knowing what Lloyd and his comrades did was bad enough without seeing it (or most of it). What really disturbed me here was the third panel. Am I misinterpreting his comment, or is Lloyd looking for an excuse to attack?

Was Lloyd looking for an excuse to attack? Not actively...

I presume the "and..." was going to be followed by something along the lines of "they're unarmed and killing civilians is bad."

Say, is Lloyd frowning at the archer for killing the kid or at the drows for "attacking?"

He's frowning at the drows.

Dark Faun

2010-11-14, 09:18 AM

Was Lloyd looking for an excuse to attack? Not actively...
I think he was more looking for a rationalization to feel justified in butchering unharmed innocents having their lands stolen.

He's frowning at the drows.
Well, I guess we know who ordered to attack then.

super dark33

2010-11-14, 02:22 PM

Die Drows! die!

thats the way i like paladins!

blackjack217

2010-11-14, 02:30 PM

I like my paladins humble. (Also I have a sneaking suspicion that paladins don't have alignment restrictions)
As for drow i like the one who got away.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-14, 05:23 PM

Die Drows! die!

thats the way i like paladins!

Are you being sarcastic?

I like my paladins humble. (Also I have a sneaking suspicion that paladins don't have alignment restrictions)
As for drow i like the one who got away.

Yeah, exactly. Though these paladins have to be Lawful Good. Except that now in Kago it's an emphasis on Lawful, and Good can piss off when it comes to Plavaan.

And on the nature of justice and pretty much all of Kago:

Old Lloyd and most of Kago: I AM JUSTICE!!!

New Lloyd: I represent Justice.

Asta Kask

2010-11-14, 05:25 PM

Old Lloyd:
http://www.pu.nl/userfiles//I-am-the-law.jpg

Anterean

2010-11-14, 05:30 PM

Yeah, exactly. Though these paladins have to be Lawful Good. Except that now in Kago it's an emphasis on Lawful, and Good can piss off when it comes to Plavaan.

So they only have to be lawful ? or the divine power backing them just let it slide with the victims are Plavaan ? (which raises other questions)

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-14, 05:32 PM

or the divine power backing them just let it slide with the victims are Plavaan ? (which raises other questions)

See the backstory with Astrid and the Alavaan gods.

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-14, 05:40 PM

That implies that Astrid is not as good and/or pure as you have made us believe... I mean she does have some reason to be so revenge driven.. but I don't know.. I think we need more info to really comment on that.

Anterean

2010-11-14, 05:46 PM

See the backstory with Astrid and the Alavaan gods.

I did see those, still raises the question why a supposedly good godess does not make it clear to her followers that she does not want them to hold the plavaan responsible for the actions of their deities.

Unless ofcourse she approves, but then is she really good ? or are the plavaan really as innocent we are being told ?

Dark Faun

2010-11-14, 06:17 PM

Being good doesn't mean having absolutely no vice. It means being generally good as well as trying to be as good as you can be. Someone who'd lay down their life to protect the helpless is still good even if they wouldn't protect one specific race because they hate it. They're not perfect, but still good.

Anterean

2010-11-14, 06:21 PM

It may just be me, but I think its fair to hold deities to a bit higher standard than mortals. Otherwise I would agree with you Discord

Marnath

2010-11-14, 07:26 PM

It may just be me, but I think its fair to hold deities to a bit higher standard than mortals. Otherwise I would agree with you Discord

In D&D, Gods are usually as short sighted and narrowminded as their followers.

Lycan 01

2010-11-14, 07:35 PM

Marnath

2010-11-14, 07:37 PM

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-14, 07:38 PM

All will be explained in time. :smallbiggrin:

Marnath

2010-11-14, 07:39 PM

All will be explained in time. :smallbiggrin:

You're the one who said you enjoy rampant speculation. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-14, 07:41 PM

You're the one who said you enjoy rampant speculation. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

I know! I wanna see where you guys are gonna take it!

*Takes out recorder* So, continue...:smallbiggrin:

Dark Faun

2010-11-14, 07:44 PM

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs12/i/2006/267/4/0/Just_In_Case_by_Hail_NekoYasha.png
Thought it was fitting. :smallwink:

Marnath

2010-11-14, 07:48 PM

My new favorite theory is that Lloyd falls for this slaughter, and the path to redemption took him a while. :smallsmile:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-14, 11:02 PM

Discord, that is great.

And is it wrong that I want to see more pictures of Serrin in all her hyperactive glory?

Anterean

2010-11-14, 11:21 PM

Not all Good Deities are "good" in all regards. Sometimes they have boughts of RIGHTEOUS FURY and stuff like that. And sometimes, their followers get a bit obsessed with that RIGHTEOUS FURY and start to focus mainly on it, rather than the other "good" stuff. I mean, shoot, look at Warhammer 40,000. The God-Emperor of Mankind was/is Lawful Good, but it can be argued that most of his followers are Lawful Evil because of what lengths they go to in their devotion. :smalleek:

Their devotion to a someone who refused to be god. I however think it is debatable that the Emperor was indeed Good. Remember his way to reunite humanity was saying "Surrender unconditionally, give up your entire way life, and accept me as your supreme leader or your world will burn".

And through the comic and the commentary here it seems to me that the real "villians" here is the church that, with Kago in fore front, have used their mythos as an excuse to persecute the Plaavan to the point where banditry has become their only real option (as I understand the edict of tolerance has been in effect for less than life time). Yet we have, to use a popular phrase around here, the word of god that this is a church for a good goddess lead by lawful good paladins.

While this may seem overly critical, believe I am enjoying reading this, and am looking forward to seeing more

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-14, 11:24 PM

Their devotion to a someone who refused to be god. I however think it is debatable that the Emperor was indeed Good. Remember his way to reunite humanity was saying "Surrender unconditionally, give up your entire way life, and accept me as your supreme leader or your world will burn".

And through the comic and the commentary here it seems to me that the real "villians" here is the church that, with Kago in fore front, have used their mythos as an excuse to persecute the Plaavan to the point where banditry has become their only real option (as I understand the edict of tolerance has been in effect for less than life time). Yet we have, to use a popular phrase around here, the word of god that this is a church for a good goddess lead by lawful good paladins.

While this may seem overly critical, believe I am enjoying reading this, and am looking forward to seeing more

You don't have all the information yet. That's all I'm saying.

Frilzer

2010-11-15, 12:02 AM

Just curious and Im sorry if it has been asked before, (Which Im betting it has, but dont know where) but what program do you make your comics with?

Asta Kask

2010-11-15, 06:22 AM

Anterean

2010-11-15, 06:43 AM

He's good considering the opposition...

You say good, I say the lesser Evil :smallbiggrin:

super dark33

2010-11-15, 11:23 AM

Are you being sarcastic?

not at all

Mina Kobold

2010-11-15, 12:30 PM

not at all

You are aware that you then condemned an entire species to death just for being members of that species. Which Loyd tell us is wrong.

Do you deny the will of Loyd Zephyr?! :smallmad::smalltongue:

Please note that I do indeed know of many other reasons and actual anti-discrimination front figures, they are acknowledged but omitted for the sake of humour.

Lix Lorn

2010-11-15, 12:38 PM

You are aware that you then condemned an entire species to death just for being members of that species. Which Loyd tell us is wrong.

Do you deny the will of Loyd Zephyr?! :smallmad::smalltongue:
:smallsigh:
No, superdark is just like that. If he's anything like he used to be in SMBG.

That said, I totally want a church of Zephyr now. XD

Dark Faun

2010-11-15, 01:01 PM

Janine would be the high priestess, of course.

"Desecrate my temple!"

Lix Lorn

2010-11-15, 01:19 PM

Heh, yes. Then he'd arrange an immaculate conception. That'd teach her. XD

Dark Faun

2010-11-15, 01:21 PM

No. As a deity, he bestows her a divine, unremoveable curse of frigidity.

Serves her right.

Lix Lorn

2010-11-15, 01:24 PM

Heh. I think he'd be tempted but unlikely to do that. XD

Asta Kask

2010-11-15, 01:35 PM

Àstrid's a male?

That will be hard to swallow for any Swedes...

Mina Kobold

2010-11-15, 01:41 PM

:smallsigh:
No, superdark is just like that. If he's anything like he used to be in SMBG.

That said, I totally want a church of Zephyr now. XD

Still true. Even if the species in question is fictional. Especially if the species is fictional :smalltongue:

*Has no idea what SMBG means and instead pretends to be a turkey*

"gobble gobble...Cluck!"

Church of Zephyr? I'll get the columns, you get the uniforms, who'll bring the cheese?

Marnath

2010-11-15, 01:49 PM

Àstrid's a male?

That will be hard to swallow for any Swedes...

I think they're talking about a Warhammer Fantasy God now, actually.

Dark Faun

2010-11-15, 01:54 PM

Church of Zephyr. Lloyd Zephyr. Rings any bell?

Marnath

2010-11-15, 01:57 PM

Church of Zephyr. Lloyd Zephyr. Rings any bell?

Oh, yeah. I thought those posts were an extension of the discussion about the emperor of mankind from last page. :smallredface:

Asta Kask

2010-11-15, 02:03 PM

Right. Brain fart on my part.

Dark Faun

2010-11-15, 02:11 PM

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-15, 02:12 PM

Dark Faun

2010-11-15, 02:13 PM

Precisely.

Dusk Eclipse

2010-11-15, 02:15 PM

But that is just a cultural... (not really sure if that is the appropriate word, but I don't have any other) thing. :shrugs;

CWater

2010-11-15, 02:44 PM

Sketched a little today, and something that can actually be shown to people.:smallsmile: It's supposed to be young Lloyd and his old friends. What do you think? Any major (or minor) changes I should make for the actual pic?:smallconfused:
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Kagoans.jpg

Asta Kask

2010-11-15, 02:59 PM

Looks great, but they seem a little... stiff? People are more bendy, aren't they?

Lix Lorn

2010-11-15, 03:07 PM

The top right girl is byootiful. Oh, for a fraction of your skill...

CWater

2010-11-15, 03:23 PM

Looks great, but they seem a little... stiff? People are more bendy, aren't they?

Very much possible:smalltongue: I drew it kinda quickly. I'll pay more attention in the main pic...I hope.

The top right girl is byootiful. Oh, for a fraction of your skill...

Thank you:smallredface:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-15, 03:23 PM

Speaking of Janine, I'm looking forward to her getting through her thick skull that Lloyd doesn't want to do her. She's basically been sexually harassing him ever since they met.

It doesn't help that it's treated like a joke. I can't help but wonder if people would laugh as much were the genders reversed.

Look: I know that sexual harassment is not a joke. Believe me, I know.

But a) Janine doesn't exactly know this, and b) She doesn't think that she's sexually harassing him.

Sketched a little today, and something that can actually be shown to people.:smallsmile: It's supposed to be young Lloyd and his old friends. What do you think? Any major (or minor) changes I should make for the actual pic?:smallconfused:
http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae273/meriwater/FanArt/Kagoans.jpg

Eee! I love it! (And is that Miles Post-magical accident? Either way, his hair should be a bit messier--Think a five-year-old Jackson Pollock fingerpainting with India Ink). And Lloyd's ear should be a bit lower, and Miles' pinky is a bit off. But I really like it. :smallsmile:

CWater

2010-11-15, 03:41 PM

Look: I know that sexual harassment is not a joke. Believe me, I know.

But a) Janine doesn't exactly know this, and b) She doesn't think that she's sexually harassing him.
And she hasn't actually done anyth-...ah, well there was that Aphrosidiatic(?) incindent...but she got scolded by Radic! And will unlikely do it again...I think.

Eee! I love it! (And is that Miles Post-magical accident? Either way, his hair should be a bit messier--Think a five-year-old Jackson Pollock fingerpainting with India Ink). And Lloyd's ear should be a bit lower, and Miles' pinky is a bit off. But I really like it. :smallsmile:

Thanks.:smallredface: Yes, he is. Hmh, it doesn't show very well in the scan...oh well. And thank you for the nitpicks, really. I often become sorta 'blind' to my pics and can't see myself if something's anatomically wrong or not.:smallsmile: (Looking at the pic a week later sometimes reveals the mistakes though.)

Marnath

2010-11-15, 10:55 PM

If you want the scar to show better, it might help to have him facing the other way? More of his scar would be visible, at least.

Raging Gene Ray

2010-11-16, 02:31 AM

I did see those, still raises the question why a supposedly good godess does not make it clear to her followers that she does not want them to hold the plavaan responsible for the actions of their deities.

Unless ofcourse she approves, but then is she really good ? or are the plavaan really as innocent we are being told ?

If the Plavaan didn't condone the actions of their deities, then they wouldn't worship them.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything wrong with Lloyd and Kago's actions in the latest comic. They were ordered not to attack unless attacked first...and they were.

Marnath

2010-11-16, 02:36 AM

If the Plavaan didn't condone the actions of their deities, then they wouldn't worship them.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything wrong with Lloyd and Kago's actions in the latest comic. They were ordered not to attack unless attacked first...and they were.

You're missing the part where they're unarmed people on their own land, and the government sent stormtroopers to annex it. And they didn't attack first, a child throwing a rock does not count as iniating a fight.

Raging Gene Ray

2010-11-16, 02:43 AM

You're missing the part where they're unarmed people on their own land, and the government sent stormtroopers to annex it. And they didn't attack first, a child throwing a rock does not count as iniating a fight.

I figured from context that it was their land, not Kago's. But Lloyd had no way of knowing that. As far as he knew, they were trying to annex Kago's land. That places the wrongdoing on the shoulders of the government, not the soldiers who have the misfortune of being (mis)led by it.

And yes it does count as an attack. He drew blood from the halfling (or gnome) who didn't say a word to him. If he struck a vital nerve or artery, as unlikely as that sounds, she could have died. The archer did her duty and defended her ally. A'Kent brought that arrow on himself.

Marnath

2010-11-16, 02:51 AM

I figured from context that it was their land, not Kago's. But Lloyd had no way of knowing that. As far as he knew, they were trying to annex Kago's land. That places the wrongdoing on the shoulders of the government, not the soldiers who have the misfortune of being (mis)led by it.

And yes it does count as an attack. He drew blood from the halfling (or gnome) who didn't say a word to him. If he struck a vital nerve or artery, as unlikely as that sounds, she could have died. The archer did her duty and defended her ally. A'Kent brought that arrow on himself.

If you really believe that, then I don't really think I want to argue with you about it. Those people are defenseless, and A'kent is a KID. What these soldiers are about to do is NOT OK. PERIOD.

Raging Gene Ray

2010-11-16, 03:00 AM

If you really believe that, then I don't really think I want to argue with you about it. Those people are defenseless, and A'kent is a KID. What these soldiers are about to do is NOT OK. PERIOD.

Being a kid doesn't make the lethal damage you do any less lethal. Should they have just stood idly by and watched the halfling get beaten?

The only thing I question is the decision to kill the rest of the drow. I agree that it's not okay to attack unarmed civilians...but after that incident that A'kent provoked, it was almost certain that they'd eventually take up arms.

Granted, they WOULD have been justified since it was really their land in the first place, but as far as the soldiers knew, this was a necessary preventative measure to keep hostile attackers away from Kago's borders.

And I don't really think that's okay either. Just understandable. I just don't see the Kagoan military as some monolithic demon empire, nor do I see the Plavaan as a bunch of tragically misunderstood saints...then again, it's probably not supposed to be as black and white as that.

Marnath

2010-11-16, 03:05 AM

The guy in the last panel of 93 sure looks like he's enjoying himself. Come to think of it, looking at that I wonder if he really is about to kill that drow or if he has something worse planned. :smalleek:

*edit: about A'kent... shooting him dead is not a justifiable reaction, even though the rock did damage. Arresting him for assault, or even beating him senseless might possibly be ok, but I really don't think lethal force was called for there.

Dark Faun

2010-11-16, 03:16 AM

Look: I know that sexual harassment is not a joke. Believe me, I know.

But a) Janine doesn't exactly know this, and b) She doesn't think that she's sexually harassing him.
Then I hope she's going to suffer some consequences for her behavior at some point, or at least realize what she's doing.

Raging Gene Ray

2010-11-16, 03:20 AM

The guy in the last panel of 93 sure looks like he's enjoying himself. Come to think of it, looking at that I wonder if he really is about to kill that drow or if he has something worse planned. :smalleek:.

If it makes you feel any better toward me, we can agree that what you implied there is a war-crime, no matter what the circumstances.

The archer, it seemed, was braced to attack in response to ANY hostile action. She didn't give her brain time to process how dangerous the attacker was because every millisecond matters in a battle. She would have responded the same way to a bird that seemed to fly out of the crowd, or a charging scimitar-wielding ranger.

It was that, and maybe the fact Coffee bothered to draw the blood on the halfling's face that made me sympathize with Kago there.

mucat

2010-11-16, 06:48 AM

The archer, it seemed, was braced to attack in response to ANY hostile action. She didn't give her brain time to process how dangerous the attacker was because every millisecond matters in a battle. She would have responded the same way to a bird that seemed to fly out of the crowd, or a charging scimitar-wielding ranger.

It was that, and maybe the fact Coffee bothered to draw the blood on the halfling's face that made me sympathize with Kago there.

The archer's action may have been pure reflex, and not a crime at all; she fired in defense of her friend before she realized it was a disproportionate response. And for one moment, in the second-to-last panel, it seems like things might stop with that one death...perhaps would have stopped there, if the first soldier to speak had said "crap, we just shot a kid!" The crime occurs in the last, unseen panel, when instead someone says, "You saw that! Let's go!"...and presumably they all follow his lead and commence a massacre.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything wrong with Lloyd and Kago's actions in the latest comic. They were ordered not to attack unless attacked first...and they were.
Yes, they followed their orders to the letter, not only in the initial, almost unintentional shot, but in the massacre that followed. And in the latter case, following orders was a crime.

Murdering civilians is always a crime, even when you are ordered to do it. In our world, international law is clear on that point: if a soldier is ordered to commit a war crime, they are obligated to disobey that order. In Lloyd's world, there may be no legal basis for disobeying an order to commit murder, but it's still wrong to obey.

And I don't really think that's okay either. Just understandable. I just don't see the Kagoan military as some monolithic demon empire, nor do I see the Plavaan as a bunch of tragically misunderstood saints...then again, it's probably not supposed to be as black and white as that.

No, it's not supposed to be black and white at all. Nothing in the comic says Kago is uniformly evil, or the Plavaans are uniformly good. That would be letting the reader off the hook far too easily. Rooting for the misunderstood underdog is easy; realizing you can also identify with the aggressor is hard to come to grips with. It implies that when things get complicated in the real world, looking around you and saying "the people on my side are good people" does not guarantee that they, and you, aren't committing a crime.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-16, 07:09 AM

The archer's action may have been pure reflex, and not a crime at all; she fired in defense of her friend before she realized it was a disproportionate response. And for one moment, in the second-to-last panel, it seems like things might stop with that one death...perhaps would have stopped there, if the first soldier to speak had said "crap, we just shot a kid!" The crime occurs in the last, unseen panel, when instead someone says, "You saw that! Let's go!"...and presumably they all follow his lead and commence a massacre.

I was waiting for you to voice your analysis. Yeah, if only...But who knows? :smallfrown:

Yes, they followed their orders to the letter, not only in the initial, almost unintentional shot, but in the massacre that followed. And in the latter case, following orders was a crime.

Murdering civilians is always a crime, even when you are ordered to do it. In our world, international law is clear on that point: if a soldier is ordered to commit a war crime, they are obligated to disobey that order. In Lloyd's world, there may be no legal basis for disobeying an order to commit murder, but it's still wrong to obey.

Kago seems to have missed that part of international law. (Then again, pretty much all of medieval society did)

No, it's not supposed to be black and white at all. Nothing in the comic says Kago is uniformly evil, or the Plavaans are uniformly good. That would be letting the reader off the hook far too easily. Rooting for the misunderstood underdog is easy; realizing you can also identify with the aggressor is hard to come to grips with. It implies that when things get complicated in the real world, looking around you and saying "the people on my side are good people" does not guarantee that they, and you, aren't committing a crime.

Exactly! (Maybe I should have called this comic Greyscale? :smalltongue:)

Dark Faun

2010-11-16, 07:41 AM

Evil has no better ally than rationalization, its chief ambassador being "I was just following orders."

CWater

2010-11-16, 08:01 AM

Evil has no better ally than rationalization, its chief ambassador being "I was just following orders."

*gloomy nod*

mucat

2010-11-16, 08:29 AM

By the way, Coffee, a couple minor questions:

The orchid and grey speech boxes in the last panel are taking place in the present, right, where the Drow survivor is confronting Lloyd? That's the only interpretation that makes sense to me, but the dialogue seems a little off for that scene. The Drow seems to be giving Lloyd more wriggle room than I would expect. She asks whether he remembers who gave the order -- which allows him to just say "no" -- rather than flat-out asking who gave it. And if he's suppressed the memory, then it's remarkably insightful of her, under the circumstances, to see that possibility before he raises it.

Lloyd's response -- especially the "I have no intention of finding out" bit -- also seems a little out of place. Even if internally, he is determined not remember, he suddenly seems to be dictating terms to the woman he was trying to apologize to.

Because of this, I was wondering if the speech boxes are actually being spoken out loud in the present-day scene, or if they're an internal dialogue in Lloyd's head...

On a lighter note, if that's possible in such a heavy scene...I always like watching the expressions on the animal companions in this strip, and the druid's snake in this one is very cute, mirroring the expressions of his/her master perfectly (even to the point of making angry eyebrows despite not technically having any eyebrows.) Poor snake probably isn't going to survive the scene either, though... :smallfrown:

HalfTangible

2010-11-16, 09:23 AM

Kago seems to have missed that part of international law. (Then again, pretty much all of medieval society did)

'international law' didn't exist in medievial times. There were laws that many nations had in common but nothing established as 'international'

So no, they didn't miss it :smalltongue:

Lloyd's response -- especially the "I have no intention of finding out" bit -- also seems a little out of place. Even if internally, he is determined not remember, he suddenly seems to be dictating terms to the woman he was trying to apologize to.

Explaining and apologizing are two different things. Moreover, i don't think it particularly matters who gave the order to attack, he still went and attacked. Saying 'this guy gave an order' would just be an excuse. And a fairly poor one given the circumstances.

Raging Gene Ray

2010-11-16, 09:27 AM

TAnd for one moment, in the second-to-last panel, it seems like things might stop with that one death...perhaps would have stopped there, if the first soldier to speak had said "crap, we just shot a kid!"

Do you really think the Plavaan wouldn't have ran back and armed themselves after that? They killed an ignorant, bratty kid just for doing what ignorant, bratty kids do! And there's no point in waiting until they get weapons in their hands and armor on their bodies. That would risk the lives of Kago soldiers.

Murdering civilians is always a crime,...

They weren't exactly civilians. Whether or not they had any official standing in a military, they HAD declared themselves hostile to the Kago soldiers and were in a position to throw spells or concealed weapons at them. That makes them no more or less dangerous than if they had uniforms.

Rooting for the misunderstood underdog is easy; realizing you can also identify with the aggressor is hard to come to grips with.

And I'm happy to help on that point :smallsmile:!

Starbuck_II

2010-11-16, 10:16 AM

So it was an "the boston massacre" to Plavaan.

Mina Kobold

2010-11-16, 11:27 AM

Do you really think the Plavaan wouldn't have ran back and armed themselves after that? They killed an ignorant, bratty kid just for doing what ignorant, bratty kids do! And there's no point in waiting until they get weapons in their hands and armor on their bodies. That would risk the lives of Kago soldiers.

Did they even have weapons? They didn't look like they wanted to fight. At all.

I would expect crying, angry yelling and shock from them, but they had already decided not to fight so I doubt they'd do that.

But if they did, I still think it would still be wrong to kill them. To me it sounds like saying "Well, he attacked me, I had the right to kill him" after going up to a demonstrator and shooting hir kid in front of hir.

QUOTE=Raging Gene Ray;9774320]
They weren't exactly civilians. Whether or not they had any official standing in a military, they HAD declared themselves hostile to the Kago soldiers and were in a position to throw spells or concealed weapons at them. That makes them no more or less dangerous than if they had uniforms.[/QUOTE]

It's not a matter of what one can do, but what they actually do. It just seem wrong to me to kill because you believe someone could be capable of doing the same, kinda sounds like Miko.

By the way, war demonstrators do the same thing, declaring that they will work against the government they live under, and halting their progress.

They could attack the police if they wanted, yet they don't. Same with the Drow.

I apologise if I sound rude or mean, it was not intended :smallsmile:

HalfTangible

2010-11-16, 12:18 PM

By the way, war demonstrators do the same thing, declaring that they will work against the government they live under, and halting their progress.

They could attack the police if they wanted, yet they don't. Same with the Drow.

The difference being that the drow DID attack. The response was wholly disproportionate, perhaps, but really, after you've killed a child do you honestly expect the people to do nothing?

mucat

2010-11-16, 12:47 PM

Do you really think the Plavaan wouldn't have ran back and armed themselves after that? They killed an ignorant, bratty kid just for doing what ignorant, bratty kids do! And there's no point in waiting until they get weapons in their hands and armor on their bodies. That would risk the lives of Kago soldiers.

Are you playing devil's advocate, or do you actually see that as an acceptable decision when a situation is going bad: "We accidentally killed one demonstrator. So the only safe thing to do is kill the rest of them, because they'll be mad now."

You're right that the kid's death just made the situation more dangerous for the Kago troops. If the other Drow have weapons or spells -- which isn't at all established -- then they're more likely to use them now. But that doesn't justify a preemptive slaughter.

To say "the lives of my troops come first, and I'll order the death of anyone who I think might pose a threat to them" is the doctrine of a classic war criminal. So is "I'm a soldier, so I'll obey any order from a legitimate superios, whether I like it or not." In our world, neither of those excuses will stand up at a war crimes trial. In Lloyd's world, there may be no such thing as war crimes trials, but he still knows damned well that what happened was a crime.

Mina Kobold

2010-11-16, 01:13 PM

The difference being that the drow DID attack. The response was wholly disproportionate, perhaps, but really, after you've killed a child do you honestly expect the people to do nothing?

No they didn't. A kid did on his own, a kid that probably had about as much understanding of the situation as a cat scratching you for rubbing it's fur wrong. The kid might be smarter than a cat, but not really enough to say "They attacked us! We have all right for killing them despite most of them being as surprised as us!" because he threw a stone.

And I said I expected them to cry, yell and perhaps be shocked (passing out or rabbling mad shock to be specific) I just don't expect them to be all that much of a threat considering Loyd's crew are trained soldiers who could easily subdue and calm them should they attack.

But they definitely would do something, yes :smallsmile:

mucat

2010-11-16, 01:30 PM

The difference being that the drow DID attack. The response was wholly disproportionate, perhaps, but really, after you've killed a child do you honestly expect the people to do nothing?

This is why soldiers are trained not only to kill, but to take control of violent situations and lock them down so that no one dies. Paladins had damned well better receive both kinds of training.

If there's a danger that the unarmed drow will run and get weapons, don't let them. Surround them, separate the spellcasters from the others, let them dent their fists on your armor, frikkin' sit on them if necessary...but a band of professional soldiers should be competent enough to restrain an equal-sized group of unarmed farmers. Yes, the soldiers run more risk of injury this way than if they just let loose with their weapons...but again, the Drow here have done nothing to justify mass slaughter, so the more risky path is the only acceptable one.

Dark Faun

2010-11-16, 01:33 PM

What interests me is whether they'd have acted the same way had the protesters not been Plavaan.

Marnath

2010-11-16, 02:31 PM

What interests me is whether they'd have acted the same way had the protesters not been Plavaan.

I'm guessing "no."

CWater

2010-11-16, 02:52 PM

What interests me is whether they'd have acted the same way had the protesters not been Plavaan.

I doubt they would have, actually I'd be very surprised if they had. I mean that these fellows are soldiers, but they are not monsters, even if they did horrible things. What I believe stimulated their aggressive response towards the drow was the fact that they have been practically brainwashed for years to believe that all Plavaans are nothing but evil and vicious. And I doubt that most of them had ever met one before this, so they unlikely had any experience to challenge this belief. And from their point of view this first encounter was not very positive either, when the kid threw the rock, some of their first thoughts might have been: "Whoa, even their children are aggressive, they truly are as vile as we we're told!"

Any of this doesn't make the massacre any more right or acceptable, but it makes Lloyd&others reaction more understandable and less...hmm...well it was still as evil, but you don't necessarily need an evil person to do evil things.:smallfrown:

The fact that the drow had no weapons should have been a hint though, and if the Kagoans would have stopped to consider how they would self have reacted if someone had shown up at their home and demanded them to leave it to a foreign country...

So even if I consider this bloodshed to be a definitely evil act, I would not go label these soldiers all inherently Evil because of it. It takes an exceptionally strong person to resist such brainwash coming from trusted authority figures, especially when they have no reason to expect that they would be hearing unthruths (I won't say lied to because I think lying means that you are intensionally trying to mislead someone and I fear many of those higher ranked Kagoans really believe what they're saying:smalleek:).

...Phuuh, long post...hope my English is understandable enough..:smallamused:

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-16, 03:20 PM

Okay, way too much to quote here, so I'll just get the basics (And don't worry, CWater, your English is fine!)

Their orders were to clear out the swamp, by force if necessary...

The colored bubbles in the last panel are being spoken out loud. Imagine as much sarcasm and bitterness in the drow's voice as possible, and imagine Lloyd's voice to be filled with pain.

None of the drow were armed. The only one who could have actually hurt the Kagoans was the sorcerer talking to them, and he's at such a low level that nothing he cast could do anything more than a couple of scrapes or bruises.

If they'd not been Plavaan? Probably not. And CWater, you've got it. They've been told their entire lives that the Plavaan are Evil; even the leaders of Kago believe this...

But...

Up until the Red Fever and a couple other things, the Plavaan had been viewed with suspicion, but not to this extent. It wasn't that hard for some of the more radical leaders to spread propaganda and drum up suspicion...And with the more radical leaders and all the stories and stuff being spread, even the more moderate leaders began believing their own lies...

Ever heard the phrase, "Tell a lie enough times and it becomes true"? It's like that.

blackjack217

2010-11-16, 03:57 PM

If you want an excellent example of being told something over and over again until you believe it I would recommend Homecoming by RA. The entire FR drow society revolves around telling lies as often as possible until everyone believes it, including yourself.

Dark Faun

2010-11-16, 04:06 PM

The colored bubbles in the last panel are being spoken out loud. Imagine as much sarcasm and bitterness in the drow's voice as possible, and imagine Lloyd's voice to be filled with pain.
I think you've made a mistake here. We can't hear the character's tone, so the only way to detect emotion is their face. And they're not shown, which can lead to confusion. I thought the drow's question was genuine whereas Lloyd's reply was "I don't want to remember this, shut up. Bitch."

Now that I know the drow was sarcastic, I feel she knows who gave the order.

HalfTangible

2010-11-16, 04:38 PM

What interests me is whether they'd have acted the same way had the protesters not been Plavaan.

I doubt they would have protested so forcefully if they hadn't been Plavaan. :smalltongue:

This is why soldiers are trained not only to kill, but to take control of violent situations and lock them down so that no one dies. Paladins had damned well better receive both kinds of training.

If there's a danger that the unarmed drow will run and get weapons, don't let them. Surround them, separate the spellcasters from the others, let them dent their fists on your armor, frikkin' sit on them if necessary...but a band of professional soldiers should be competent enough to restrain an equal-sized group of unarmed farmers. Yes, the soldiers run more risk of injury this way than if they just let loose with their weapons...but again, the Drow here have done nothing to justify mass slaughter, so the more risky path is the only acceptable one.

No they didn't. A kid did on his own, a kid that probably had about as much understanding of the situation as a cat scratching you for rubbing it's fur wrong. The kid might be smarter than a cat, but not really enough to say "They attacked us! We have all right for killing them despite most of them being as surprised as us!" because he threw a stone.

And I said I expected them to cry, yell and perhaps be shocked (passing out or rabbling mad shock to be specific) I just don't expect them to be all that much of a threat considering Loyd's crew are trained soldiers who could easily subdue and calm them should they attack.

But they definitely would do something, yes :smallsmile:

I'm playing devil's advocate here, trying to point out the Paladin's reasoning. Namely, that the plavaan DID attack, it could only get worse after killing the child, and if they hadn't attacked after the child did then it would likely lead to an even bigger riot. They don't neccesarily need to slaughter them all, just attack harshly enough that they flee.

I still think it was a horrible thing, but i see their reasoning.

CWater

2010-11-16, 04:47 PM

Hmm...something in the current events reminded me of this song, or at least the first part of it: (Don't mind the videoclips, it's the song that's important (even though it is an awesome amv (whether you are familiar with the Final Fantasy games or not:smallwink:)), though if you're playing FF7 games and don't wish to be spoiled, don't look)
Anyhoo:, This Is War, by 30 Seconds to Mars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV30-5E6Png)

Not sure why I feel they have something in common... Any comment?

Anterean

2010-11-16, 04:59 PM

No, it's not supposed to be black and white at all. Nothing in the comic says Kago is uniformly evil, or the Plavaans are uniformly good. That would be letting the reader off the hook far too easily. Rooting for the misunderstood underdog is easy; realizing you can also identify with the aggressor is hard to come to grips with. It implies that when things get complicated in the real world, looking around you and saying "the people on my side are good people" does not guarantee that they, and you, aren't committing a crime.

So far I am inclined to disagree. We have yet see any redeeming traits applied to Kago, and anything indicating that the plavaan are anything but innocents persecuted by brutal Kagoian nation.

Yes - yes, I know we havn´t seen everything yet, and actually I am looking forward to the explanation as to how the Kagoian paladins can do this and still be good aligned.

mucat

2010-11-16, 05:01 PM

I'm playing devil's advocate here, trying to point out the Paladin's reasoning. Namely, that the plavaan DID attack, it could only get worse after killing the child, and if they hadn't attacked after the child did then it would likely lead to an even bigger riot. They don't neccesarily need to slaughter them all, just attack harshly enough that they flee.

I still think it was a horrible thing, but i see their reasoning.
We'll find out soon enough how the attack played out. From what we know now, it seems likely that the Kago troops didn't "attack harshly enough that they flee" -- which, had they pulled it off, actually would have been one way to resolve the situation without further loss of life -- they simply murdered everyone. It's hard to imagine how "an even bigger riot" would have turned out worse.

We know there was at least one survivor, but I'm getting the feeling that she survived despite the soldiers' actions, not because of them.

HalfTangible

2010-11-16, 05:08 PM

We'll find out soon enough how the attack played out. From what we know now, it seems likely that the Kago troops didn't "attack harshly enough that they flee" -- which, had they pulled it off, actually would have been one way to resolve the situation without further loss of life -- they simply murdered everyone. It's hard to imagine how "an even bigger riot" would have turned out worse.Because a bigger riot would've meant that all of/most of the plavaan died, AND the kago soldiers would've been killed or seriously injured. Even if the lives aren't ones you'd like to preserve, the fact that they were just as unnecessary as the others would've meant it would be just as tragic.

We know there was at least one survivor, but I'm getting the feeling that she survived despite the soldiers' actions, not because of them.

Obviously SOME of them died. But at least one lived, and i think that if she had seen him try to kill them all, she would've KEPT running.

mucat

2010-11-16, 05:18 PM

Because a bigger riot would've meant that all of/most of the plavaan died, AND the kago soldiers would've been killed or seriously injured. Even if the lives aren't ones you'd like to preserve, the fact that they were just as unnecessary as the others would've meant it would be just as tragic.
The ones I'd like to preserve?

Straw man there. No one is saying that the Kago soldiers had to play martyr and let themselves be killed. By any reasonable reading of the situation, there was very little danger of that. They had the only (non-silicate based) weapons on the scene. They had the only armor. They probably had the best spellcasters. They are trained, disciplined, and united.

If they had decided to minimize loss of life, they could have done a lot better than "well, one survived, because after we killed all her friends she was terrified enough to run away." They didn't kill the elves because it was the only way to save their own lives. They didn't kill them because it was the only way to save the chick in the orchid dress. They killed them because they were angry, because they didn't like Plavaans, and because their orders said it was okay as long as they had been attacked.

None of these are valid reasons.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-16, 05:23 PM

The ones I'd like to preserve?

Straw man there. No one is saying that the Kago soldiers had to play martyr and let themselves be killed. By any reasonable reading of the situation, there was very little danger of that. They had the only (non-silicate based) weapons on the scene. They had the only armor. They probably had the best spellcasters. They are trained, disciplined, and united.

If they had decided to minimize loss of life, they could have done a lot better than "well, one survived, because after we killed all her friends she was terrified enough to run away." They didn't kill the elves because it was the only way to save their own lives. They didn't kill them because it was the only way to save the chick in the orchid dress. They killed them because they were angry, because they didn't like Plavaans, and because their orders said it was okay as long as they had been attacked.

None of these are valid reasons.

*Nods sagely* Exactly.

And even if you think about their original orders: The Kagoans' orders were to kick the Plavaan off of their own land and take over, using the swampland to grow rice or something for their own people to eat.

And they didn't even consider making some sort of trade agreement.

mucat

2010-11-16, 05:38 PM

*Nods sagely* Exactly.

And even if you think about their original orders: The Kagoans' orders were to kick the Plavaan off of their own land and take over, using the swampland to grow rice or something for their own people to eat.

And they didn't even consider making some sort of trade agreement.

True, that. But that's above Lloyd's pay grade. Perhaps those are the issues he should have been considering on his own time, as he tried to make sense of the whole mess, but he can be forgiven for not thinking of that in the middle of a tense confrontation.

What he did need to consider, especially in the middle of a confrontation, is that you don't massacre unarmed sapients if any reasonable alternative exists. And, contrary to those who believe that a commander has to consider the lives of his own troops to the exclusion of all else, "reasonable" is not the same thing as "zero-risk".

HalfTangible

2010-11-16, 06:16 PM

blackjack217

2010-11-16, 06:28 PM

Have you ever seen rice patties?

HalfTangible

2010-11-16, 07:05 PM

Have you ever seen rice patties?

Nope. :smallconfused: i assumed they were grown on farms in very humid/arid areas (not sure which)

Raging Gene Ray

2010-11-16, 07:20 PM

Are you playing devil's advocate, or do you actually see that as an acceptable decision when a situation is going bad?"

Well, if I didn't that would be letting myself off the hook too easily.

Almost every decision is acceptable given certain possibilities, no matter how improbable those are. And people aren't omnipotent supercomputers. They don't know what threats are real and can overestimate the likelihood that they are or aren't, especially when they don't have hours to cloister themselves in an ivory tower and mull over everything.

Marnath

2010-11-16, 07:39 PM

Nope. :smallconfused: i assumed they were grown on farms in very humid/arid areas (not sure which)

From what I understand of it, a rice patty/(paddy?) is basically a man-made marsh. They dig earthen berms, and then flood the enclosed area.

blackjack217

2010-11-16, 07:44 PM

From what I understand of it, a rice patty/(paddy?) is basically a man-made marsh. They dig earthen berms, and then flood the enclosed area.

what he said look:
http://www.cultureshocktherapy.com/pic/id/rice_paddy.jpg

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-17, 06:41 AM

Well, if I didn't that would be letting myself off the hook too easily.

Almost every decision is acceptable given certain possibilities, no matter how improbable those are. And people aren't omnipotent supercomputers. They don't know what threats are real and can overestimate the likelihood that they are or aren't, especially when they don't have hours to cloister themselves in an ivory tower and mull over everything.

Still doesn't make it right.

Nope. :smallconfused: i assumed they were grown on farms in very humid/arid areas (not sure which)

what he said look:
http://www.cultureshocktherapy.com/pic/id/rice_paddy.jpg

Yep! And there's a swamp, ready-made! :smallbiggrin:

Dark Faun

2010-11-17, 06:18 PM

Plus, drow corpses make excellent fertilizer. :smallamused:

Lix Lorn

2010-11-17, 06:20 PM

That's... either horrible or hilarious and I can't pick which. XD

HalfTangible

2010-11-17, 06:23 PM

That's... either horrible or hilarious and I can't pick which. XD

Hilarious because there's no possible way she can know if that's true.

CoffeeIncluded

2010-11-17, 06:24 PM

Plus, drow corpses make excellent fertilizer. :smallamused:

That's one of those things that makes you laugh and gasp in horror simultaneously.