Hide in Plain Sight

[Tyger]

My bard recently acquired a continuous Umbral Collar (from Tome of Magic) granting the Dark template and thus the Hide in Plain Sight (ex) ability.

Some clarification on how its used would be really handy though.

My interpretation of that is that, assuming the user is not in the lighted areas noted, they would be able to roll their hide skill, standing directly in front of someone, then move at up to half their movement rate while not being seen, and end up with cover / concealment, and the viewer (assuming the skill check went in the user's favor) would have no idea where the hider has gone, or would assume they were now invisible.

Sort of like in the movies when the main character suddenly just disappears - I'm thinking of the opening scene in the Replacement Killers, or any other movie where there is a momentary distraction and someone is just gone.

Thoughts?

[true_shinken]

It's exactly that, but moving more than half your speed incurs in a penalty to your hide check.

[hamishspence]

Cormyr- Tearing of the Weave, has an updated version of the Dark Template- same LA (+1), but you don't need to start out with concealment to make the Hide Check.

[Tyger]

Cormyr- Tearing of the Weave, has an updated version of the Dark Template- same LA (+1), but you don't need to start out with concealment to make the Hide Check.

The Dark version in Tome of Magic doesn't require you to start out with concealment either... I don't think any of the HipS require you to start with it... wouldn't be of any real value if it did.

[Greenish]

The Dark version in Tome of Magic doesn't require you to start out with concealment either... I don't think any of the HipS require you to start with it... wouldn't be of any real value if it did.ToM Dark HiPS does require you to have concealment or cover to hide.

[Tyger]

ToM Dark HiPS does require you to have concealment or cover to hide.

Alrighty, I'll bite. How does Hide in Plain Sight ever require you to have cover or concealment??? What would the possible advantage of the ability be if it requires the same criteria as the basic Hide skill?

The Ranger ability (similar in nature) specifies "even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment." The Shadowdancer ability says "use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind" and the the Tome of Magic I can't repeat here, due to OGL issues, but says you can hide while being observed, which implies no cover / concealment (or arguably a limited version thereof).

Not trying to be obtuse, just not seeing the logic there Greenish.

[Greenish]

Alrighty, I'll bite. How does Hide in Plain Sight ever require you to have cover or concealment?Because the one on Dark template or ranger don't remove the requirement of having concealment.

What would the possible advantage of the ability be if it requires the same criteria as the basic Hide skill?Well, the benefit, as spelled out in the description, is that you can now Hide while being watched.


The Ranger ability (similar in nature) specifies "even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment."You're confusing ranger's Camouflage with HiPS. They're two distinct abilities, gained on different levels, doing two different things.

The Shadowdancer ability says "use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind"There are separate versions of the ability, which confusingly share the name.

and the the Tome of Magic I can't repeat here, due to OGL issues, but says you can hide while being observed, which implies no cover / concealment (or arguably a limited version thereof).No, it implies that you can hide while being observed. I just looked it over, and it says nothing about removing the need for concealment.

That's just RAW though, so ask your DM how it actually works.

[true_shinken]

The Ranger ability (similar in nature) specifies "even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment." The Shadowdancer ability says "use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind" and the the Tome of Magic I can't repeat here, due to OGL issues, but says you can hide while being observed, which implies no cover / concealment (or arguably a limited version thereof).

Not trying to be obtuse, just not seeing the logic there Greenish.

You usually need a Bluff check to create a diversion to Hide while being observed.

[Tyger]

A lot of reasonably good points

but...

At level 13 the Ranger gets Camouflage, which lets him hide without any cover or concealment in a natural terrain... so a endless plain of sand with no obstructions allows him to hide.

At level 17 he gets his capstone ability (other than that 5th favoured enemy) which lets him hide while being observed.

Seems that the first one is far more useful, if all that is allowed with HipS is the ability to do it where someone could see you.

As it is presented here, this amounts to a removal of the Bluff check necessary to get to a hiding place... which again begs the question of why one would ever bother getting the HipS ability, why not just bump up your Bluff skill?? And yes, some classes don't get Bluff, but the stealth classes generally do, and they're the ones it would be valuable for.

Not to mention, many forms of cover / concealment mean that the enemy can't actually see you anyway.

Add to that the statement in the Tome of Magic that Darkvision prevents the use of Hide unless the hider has cover, is invisible or "has the hide in plain sight ability" which implies that cover is not required. They wouldn't have concealment either due to the darkness not providing such from a Darkvision equipped spotter.

[Escheton]

Just cast blur and get it over with already!

[Greenish]

but...

At level 13 the Ranger gets Camouflage, which lets him hide without any cover or concealment in a natural terrain... so a endless plain of sand with no obstructions allows him to hide.

At level 17 he gets his capstone ability (other than that 5th favoured enemy) which lets him hide while being observed.

Seems that the first one is far more useful, if all that is allowed with HipS is the ability to do it where someone could see you.*Shrug* I didn't write the abilities. :smallcool:
As it is presented here, this amounts to a removal of the Bluff check necessary to get to a hiding place... which again begs the question of why one would ever bother getting the HipS ability, why not just bump up your Bluff skill??Standard Action vs. Move Action. And the better version of HiPS, such as Shadowdancer's, bypasses both restrictions.
Not to mention, many forms of cover / concealment mean that the enemy can't actually see you anyway.Total Cover and Total Concealment, yeah.


Add to that the statement in the Tome of Magic that Darkvision prevents the use of Hide unless the hider has cover, is invisible or "has the hide in plain sight ability" which implies that cover is not required.Or it implies that HiPS allows you to hide while being observed. :smalltongue:

If you're saying that (any) HiPS should eliminate both requirements for hiding, well, no arguments from here. I'm just pointing out what the ability and the skill descriptions say.

[Tyger]

Or it implies that HiPS allows you to hide while being observed. :smalltongue:

If you're saying that (any) HiPS should eliminate both requirements for hiding, well, no arguments from here. I'm just pointing out what the ability and the skill descriptions say.

*chuckles* RAW is a pita sometimes, ain't it?

That said, I think the line from Tome of Magic is very telling though. You have to have either cover, invisibility or hips to attempt to hide within 60 feet of someone with darkvision. The "or" part there is clear. You can hide without cover against someone with darkvision if you have HipS. By inference then you can use it without cover against someone with normal vision under normal visual conditions.

Either that or I am going to have to get my armor enchanted with Mithrilmist... And I gots plans for that money!

[hamishspence]

I've checked and the Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave version of the Dark Template grants [Su] Hide in Plain Sight (which doesn't require cover or concealment).

Not Extraordinary, as per the standard Dark template.

So- if you can get permission to have the later version count as the "Updated Dark Template" for your games (magic items included) then you can hide without cover or concealment, using that template.

[Person_Man]

Note that according to the Skill description in the SRD "you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action."

Assuming you have HiPS to bypass the "If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide" restriction, this means that you can Hide as part of any movement, including a 5 ft step, a move action, movement from other sources (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), or even as part of a Charge action (though in the last case, you would be revealed as soon as you attack - though your enemy would be denied their Dex bonus for your first attack against them). If your version of HiPS requires cover or concealment, just buy a Cloak of Displacement or invest 1 feat in Shape Soulmeld (Fellmist Robe).

With the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) you can even Hide from Tremorsense, Scent, etc.

The only down side to HiPS is that if you abuse it too often, your DM will eventually retaliate with enemies with ridiculous Spot checks and/or Grapple and/or other abilities which bypass it.

[shadow_archmagi]

even as part of a Charge action (though in the last case, you would be revealed as soon as you attack - though your enemy would be denied their Dex bonus for your first attack against them).


this is basically the best idea ever.

[Person_Man]

this is basically the best idea ever.

And with Ride by Attack, you could choose to Hide before or after your attack (and maybe both, if your DM is feeling charitable), adding another level of utility.

Only issue is that both you and your mount would also need HiPS, and that your mount's Hide check might suck compared to yours.

The HiPS problem could be solved by buying a second Umbral Collar, or by just finding a Familiar or Animal Companion or Special Mount with HiPS from another source and riding it.

Wild Plains Outrider 1 gives you the Wild Plains Stalker ability, which lets you use your Hide and Move Silently checks in place of your mount's. The Share Soulmeld feat lets you Share Soulmelds with your Familiar or Animal Companion as well, which makes a mounted Totemist or Incarnate stealth build an option as well. And anything that reduces size increases Hide without impacting damage that must (unless you're a King of Smack or Monk). You could also just buy your mount magic Barding or rings as needed.

[Esser-Z]

Only issue is that both you and your mount would also need HiPS, and that your mount's Hide check might suck compared to yours.

Only if you wanted their dex bonus denied against the mount, too! :smalltongue:

[Optimator]

Yeah, HIPS is tricky because not all HIPS's are made equal. It's not one ability, but many abilities with the same name. Some have different qualifiers and conditions, some are virtual invisibility at will.