Timekeeping in DnD

[Lev]

So, with all of the waterclocks and such, are there mechanical or magical clocks of any kind in DnD? I mean come on, a whole plane of CLOCKwork, there's gotta be rules for it somewhere right?

[Kaje]

Why would you need rules for that?

[Lev]

What if you wanted a pocketwatch for keeping time underground? What about using timing to sync actions in a complex coordinated effort between multiple parties or adventurers? What about how the lack of common timing effects the impact of culture when it comes to dance and music especially in coordinated musical efforts-- a 1/4 beat theory might be more like a 0.31226 beat playing for a culture without standardized, dependable and well accessed timekeeping.

[jseah]

So build one!

If you're the GM, you can put in an eccentric NPC who loves to build clocks of all kinds.

A serious clock would factor in a fundamental constant. Say, a clock based off the duration of a 1 round duration spell.

[GoatBoy]

I believe the words that PH used was, "what use is it knowing that it's 4 o'clock if no one else does?"

[Lev]

Thats my point, is there rules to provide a slightly more advanced society in terms of the importance of time? What about Eberron?

[KillianHawkeye]

Why would you need rules for that?

+1

Seriously, I don't understand what you need here. If you want to have a society that includes standardized timekeeping and easy access to timekeeping devices, what's stopping you? You can't do it unless somebody wrote about it in a book? :smallconfused:

How about you explain in more detail exactly what you want rules for. Or at least how you think having a watch will affect the basic rules of the game.

EDIT: I also fail to see how not having a clock will adversely affect music. FYI, music predates accurate timekeeping by a huge timeframe.

[Lev]

I was just checking for pre-existing rules assuming there probably were some.

If not, simple fix.

[AslanCross]

While Eberron does have a time and calendar system like other settings, there is no explicit mention of an actual clock. Given their penchant for orreries, I'd think that a small clock could be made to respond to say, the pulsing of a small Eberron dragonshard (like a quartz crystal), or something like the large, mechanical clocks we have. Larger clocks could be powered by the motion of the ring of Siberys, the orbits of the moons, or even the planes.

[Coidzor]

Thats my point, is there rules to provide a slightly more advanced society in terms of the importance of time? What about Eberron?

Have bell towers that chime the hour in inhabited places larger than thorps and hamlets.

You don't need rules, you just have it so that the NPCs have an understanding of seconds, minutes, hours, and probably the 24 hour day unless you want to get more exotic.

[ericgrau]

It'd be good for synchronized strikes. But then telepathic bonds remove that problem. There's also a navigation application: Namely the stars plus an accurate watch is what you need to figure out where you are east-west. North-south requires no clock b/c the earth isn't spinning that way. The only thing left is work and experiments for squeezing out every minute of efficiency and precision, which adventurers don't care about and which a water clock solves.

[Lev]

It'd be good for synchronized strikes. But then telepathic bonds remove that problem. There's also a navigation application: Namely the stars plus an accurate watch is what you need to figure out where you are east-west. North-south requires no clock b/c the earth isn't spinning that way. The only thing left is work and experiments for squeezing out every minute of efficiency and precision, which adventurers don't care about and which a water clock solves.
ALRIGHT TEAM! SYNCHRONIZE WATER CLOCKS..... NOW!

Water clocks are 200lbs and cost 1000gp

Moving them disturbs their time keeping.

This is obviously a sophisticated adventuring tool.

[Darrin]

So, with all of the waterclocks and such, are there mechanical or magical clocks of any kind in DnD? I mean come on, a whole plane of CLOCKwork, there's gotta be rules for it somewhere right?

In Ghostwalk, there is a "Desk Clock" that can keep accurate time to within a few minutes each day. The diagram in the book looks more like an orrery, but the item description sounds more like a head-sized wind-up clock. 25 GP.

Dungeonscape has Firmament Stones, which are supposedly alchemical creations. Each stone is tied to either the sun or the moon, and show the general position of where that celestial body would be in the sky (and the phase, in the case of the moon). This allows the owner to "approximate the time of day or night", but the text doesn't specify how accurate this approximation would be. 110 GP per stone.

The Differential Hourglass in the Planar Handbook is probably what you're looking for. It shows the difference between time passing on the local plane and a different plane, so watching the local half would show you how much time was passing. 75 GP.

Other than that, approximating the time of day or elapsed time would probably be a Survival roll. I could see allowing a Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Religion) check (almost every single advancement in timekeeping was usually for properly timing religious occurrences), maybe other Knowledge subcategories if the player made a reasonable argument for it.

[Coidzor]

Other than that, approximating the time of day or elapsed time would probably be a Survival roll. I could see allowing a Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Religion) check (almost every single advancement in timekeeping was usually for properly timing religious occurrences), maybe other Knowledge subcategories if the player made a reasonable argument for it.

Well, Arcana or Spellcraft would have to do with the time duration of spells, I imagine.

[Lev]

In Ghostwalk, there is a "Desk Clock" that can keep accurate time to within a few minutes each day. The diagram in the book looks more like an orrery, but the item description sounds more like a head-sized wind-up clock. 25 GP.

Dungeonscape has Firmament Stones, which are supposedly alchemical creations. Each stone is tied to either the sun or the moon, and show the general position of where that celestial body would be in the sky (and the phase, in the case of the moon). This allows the owner to "approximate the time of day or night", but the text doesn't specify how accurate this approximation would be. 110 GP per stone.

The Differential Hourglass in the Planar Handbook is probably what you're looking for. It shows the difference between time passing on the local plane and a different plane, so watching the local half would show you how much time was passing. 75 GP.

Other than that, approximating the time of day or elapsed time would probably be a Survival roll. I could see allowing a Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Religion) check (almost every single advancement in timekeeping was usually for properly timing religious occurrences), maybe other Knowledge subcategories if the player made a reasonable argument for it.
This is EXACTLY the answer I was looking for. Thanks!

[Slipperychicken]

What about how the lack of common timing effects the impact of culture when it comes to dance and music especially in coordinated musical efforts-- a 1/4 beat theory might be more like a 0.31226 beat playing for a culture without standardized, dependable and well accessed timekeeping.

As a musician (though by no means a full-casting bard) myself, I must point out that performers won't exactly kill each other if one starts the beat a little fast. Even the difference you mention falls well within artistic license, especially in the days when notation was a series of dots and squiggles. And most composers in that time period weren't all too concerned with exact time, and would probably just take their work and write in a vague description of the tempo (i.e. march tempo, allegro, adagio, etc.) knowing that not everyone had a metronome, and that a slightly faster tempo wouldn't be much of an obstacle for trained professionals.

[Ormur]

In Ghostwalk, there is a "Desk Clock" that can keep accurate time to within a few minutes each day. The diagram in the book looks more like an orrery, but the item description sounds more like a head-sized wind-up clock. 25 GP.

Dungeonscape has Firmament Stones, which are supposedly alchemical creations. Each stone is tied to either the sun or the moon, and show the general position of where that celestial body would be in the sky (and the phase, in the case of the moon). This allows the owner to "approximate the time of day or night", but the text doesn't specify how accurate this approximation would be. 110 GP per stone.

The Differential Hourglass in the Planar Handbook is probably what you're looking for. It shows the difference between time passing on the local plane and a different plane, so watching the local half would show you how much time was passing. 75 GP.

Other than that, approximating the time of day or elapsed time would probably be a Survival roll. I could see allowing a Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Religion) check (almost every single advancement in timekeeping was usually for properly timing religious occurrences), maybe other Knowledge subcategories if the player made a reasonable argument for it.

Wow, that's pretty cheap. I included mechanical (gnomish) clocks in my campaign and I presumed they'd cost about the same as other renaissance precision tools, like the SRD spyglass that costs 1000 gp.

[WarKitty]

As a musician (though by no means a full-casting bard) myself, I must point out that performers won't exactly kill each other if one starts the beat a little fast. Even the difference you mention falls well within artistic license, especially in the days when notation was a series of dots and squiggles. And most composers in that time period weren't all too concerned with exact time, and would probably just take their work and write in a vague description of the tempo (i.e. march tempo, allegro, adagio, etc.) knowing that not everyone had a metronome, and that a slightly faster tempo wouldn't be much of an obstacle for trained professionals.

For a long time the practice of many orchestras was for the conductor to carry a heavy staff. He would beat the staff on the ground in time to the music to set the tempo.

[Lev]

As a musician (though by no means a full-casting bard) myself, I must point out that performers won't exactly kill each other if one starts the beat a little fast. Even the difference you mention falls well within artistic license, especially in the days when notation was a series of dots and squiggles. And most composers in that time period weren't all too concerned with exact time, and would probably just take their work and write in a vague description of the tempo (i.e. march tempo, allegro, adagio, etc.) knowing that not everyone had a metronome, and that a slightly faster tempo wouldn't be much of an obstacle for trained professionals.

Truth, but when you're performing in a mageocatic city or kingdom performing for stuffy wizards who are obsessed with verbal timing...

[WarKitty]

Truth, but when you're performing in a mageocatic city or kingdom performing for stuffy wizards who are obsessed with verbal timing...

A good performer should not keep exact time. It sounds really boring when they do. Seriously, it does.

[Lev]

A good performer should not keep exact time. It sounds really boring when they do. Seriously, it does.
Spending 40 years in some tower studying books sounds hella boring to me.

[Mystral]

You could certainly create spells for this purpose.

For example:

A cantrip to know the time at the moment of it's casting, down to 1/4 hour.
A bard cantrip that helps you keep the rythm by creating a rythm of your choice in your head for minutes/level. (+1 circumstance Bonus to perform checks)
A Level 1 Spell that tells you how much time has passed since it's casting, with a duration of level/hours. Accurate to the second (stopwatch)
A Level 2 Spell that let's you know what time it is, down to the second, with a duration of 24 hours, and which can be affected by permanency.

I don't think simple time telling would warrant higher spell levels, except for really complicated shenannigangs (keeping time on different planes so you are never suprised by those shifty planes where 1 day equals 1 century on your home plane).

Combine those spells with create magic item, and you get magical watches. Sure, expensive, but not much more then a water clock, and way more usefull.

Also, I guess in bigger towns, there are main waterclocks, or at least bored guards with hour glasses, and each passing of an hour is made known by tolling a bell or nightwatch calling the time.

[Fiery Diamond]

A good performer should not keep exact time. It sounds really boring when they do. Seriously, it does.

Is there anyone who actually does? I mean, it's pretty much impossible to keep exact time while playing music unless you have a metronome of some sort. The only time I can think of that it even makes SENSE to keep exact time is for doing performances piecemeal (like in a sound studio, where the drummer and guitarist are being recorded separately, for example). Other than that, you just want to keep it as much in sync as you can and not vary too wildly from the initial tempo.

[WarKitty]

Is there anyone who actually does? I mean, it's pretty much impossible to keep exact time while playing music unless you have a metronome of some sort. The only time I can think of that it even makes SENSE to keep exact time is for doing performances piecemeal (like in a sound studio, where the drummer and guitarist are being recorded separately, for example). Other than that, you just want to keep it as much in sync as you can and not vary too wildly from the initial tempo.

It's a common student move to try to keep time as exactly as you can. And it's important to do early on so you can learn to track time and maintain a steady rhythm. But once you gain a certain proficiency you learn to add in subtle changes in tempo where it suits the music. A crescendo where you slow down ever so slightly packs a bigger punch than one that maintains the tempo.

[Psyx]

Thats my point, is there rules to provide a slightly more advanced society in terms of the importance of time? What about Eberron?

Which was why there was such a massive amount of money offered by the RN for such a device.

Even if you put clocks in your world, it still took hundreds of years to get that down to pocketwatch size, and more to make a reliable clock (which wasn't pocket sized...)

If the party want to time infiltrations, then let them buy a small selection of hour glasses.

[fusilier]

Which was why there was such a massive amount of money offered by the RN for such a device.

Even if you put clocks in your world, it still took hundreds of years to get that down to pocketwatch size, and more to make a reliable clock (which wasn't pocket sized...)

If the party want to time infiltrations, then let them buy a small selection of hour glasses.

Until the introduction of the pendulum escapement, even the best clocks typically varied by several minutes a day. Likewise, until the introduction of the balance spring, watches may vary by an hour or so in a day! You can find the rare pocket-watch with a second hand, but typically clocks and watches only had an hour hand.

I would suspect that actions were timed on readily observable natural phenomena: sundown, dawn, nightfall, etc. Or by a prearranged signal of some sort: whistle, shout, gunshot, flare, lantern, etc. If you are trying to coordinate an action, typically the precise world time doesn't matter, you just want everybody to move at the same time. In such a case a collection of well made hour-glasses, as Psyx suggested, would work well.

[Lev]

Which was why there was such a massive amount of money offered by the RN for such a device.

Even if you put clocks in your world, it still took hundreds of years to get that down to pocketwatch size, and more to make a reliable clock (which wasn't pocket sized...)

If the party want to time infiltrations, then let them buy a small selection of hour glasses.
And hundreds or thousands of years to get it to android, but yet we have warforged and exiled modrons and clockwork horrors and bass men and golems, ect.

[BridgeCity]

And hundreds or thousands of years to get it to android, but yet we have warforged and exiled modrons and clockwork horrors and bass men and golems, ect.

Totally agree. Rationalising technology development in D&D worlds doesn't work well. As the DM just decide if a particular item exists or not and go with it.

[ShadowFighter15]

Totally agree. Rationalising technology development in D&D worlds doesn't work well. As the DM just decide if a particular item exists or not and go with it.

Which is what I plan to do if I ever run an Eberron-based game where all the PCs are con-artists. Kind of like Hustle in Sharn. I was going to have most nations shift over to paper money (for that iconic briefcase of cash you see in con-movies) and also introduce devices that are essentially mobile phones (albeit without built-in cameras or all the other fancy stuff; just calls and text messages).

[BridgeCity]

Which is what I plan to do if I ever run an Eberron-based game where all the PCs are con-artists. Kind of like Hustle in Sharn. I was going to have most nations shift over to paper money (for that iconic briefcase of cash you see in con-movies) and also introduce devices that are essentially mobile phones (albeit without built-in cameras or all the other fancy stuff; just calls and text messages).

Nice, I like it.

Love the idea of a briefcase of money actually being a mimic, just to screw with them.

[ShadowFighter15]

Tempting; but since the briefcase would be handed over by the mark; he'd only do that if he knew the party were a bunch of con-artists which means they made a mistake somewhere while they were running the con.

[BridgeCity]

Tempting; but since the briefcase would be handed over by the mark; he'd only do that if he knew the party were a bunch of con-artists which means they made a mistake somewhere while they were running the con.

True. Have to say I love the idea of the mark getting one over on the PCs like that all the same :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

I think it's more interesting that the mimic could adapt to paper money from the traditional dragonesque view of hoarding loot..

[Psyx]

introduce devices that are essentially mobile phones

Ouch. Don't do it! It's free license to split the party more. Communications is half the reason why parties don't split. Play a modern game with mobiles, and they're all over the darned place. Plus, numerous plots can be too easily solved with mobiles.

Mobiles and the Internet: The two best reasons to set a 'modern' game in the early 80s instead!

[dsmiles]

Pocketwatches in the Iron Kingdoms cast anywhere from 150-300, IIRC. Available, but expensive. I use them in my campaigns.

[ShadowFighter15]

Ouch. Don't do it! It's free license to split the party more. Communications is half the reason why parties don't split. Play a modern game with mobiles, and they're all over the darned place. Plus, numerous plots can be too easily solved with mobiles.

Mobiles and the Internet: The two best reasons to set a 'modern' game in the early 80s instead!

True, but I'd only use them in a game that wasn't your typical adventure. See if you can borrow a season of Hustle and then imagine that set in Sharn and you've got the sort of game I'm wanting to run.

[BridgeCity]

Ouch. Don't do it! It's free license to split the party more. Communications is half the reason why parties don't split. Play a modern game with mobiles, and they're all over the darned place. Plus, numerous plots can be too easily solved with mobiles.

Mobiles and the Internet: The two best reasons to set a 'modern' game in the early 80s instead!

Really though, it is pretty easy for a party to split and keep in contact. There are numerous ways to do it, so adding one more for flavour won't make much difference.

[Loki_42]

3rd edition Ravenloft had pocketwatches in them, but they were hella expensive IIRC.

[Darrin]

introduce devices that are essentially mobile phones

Aspect Mirror in Complete Scoundrel comes pretty close... 4000 GP. No "text message" option, though, unless you left a message in front of the mirror where someone else could see it.

[Ormur]

Mobiles and the Internet: The two best reasons to set a 'modern' game in the early 80s instead!

It's really quite funny, you see how much those two inventions have changed our society from that quote. It means going for realism in a modern setting is no longer conducive to good roleplaying because it takes away challenge and drama.

It's almost exactly like Star Trek and other Sci-Fi where they always have to come up with excuses for the fabulous technology not working to keep the plot going. It's already apparent in modern thrillers and horrors where the mobile phone is always the first thing to die if it's mentioned at all and the reason for why the internet is hardly ever utilized.

[Lev]

Pocketwatches in the Iron Kingdoms cast anywhere from 150-300, IIRC. Available, but expensive. I use them in my campaigns.

Perfect, thanks!

[Psyx]

True, but I'd only use them in a game that wasn't your typical adventure. See if you can borrow a season of Hustle and then imagine that set in Sharn and you've got the sort of game I'm wanting to run.

Coolness that means the party split all the while and half of them are twiddling thumbs during many scenes isn't cool, though. Be very careful and consider the ramifications first. Free-and-easy co-ordination of the party over more-than-yelling-distance is a right pain in the neck to GM for, as is the ability to call for help or get messages sent to far-flung places. ["Hey, yeah... I'd like to order some magic items for delivery, please..."]



It's really quite funny, you see how much those two inventions have changed our society from that quote. It means going for realism in a modern setting is no longer conducive to good roleplaying because it takes away challenge and drama.

It certainly ruins a lot of plots. Look how many old film plots would have been solved with either invention.

[ShadowFighter15]

Coolness that means the party split all the while and half of them are twiddling thumbs during many scenes isn't cool, though. Be very careful and consider the ramifications first. Free-and-easy co-ordination of the party over more-than-yelling-distance is a right pain in the neck to GM for, as is the ability to call for help or get messages sent to far-flung places. ["Hey, yeah... I'd like to order some magic items for delivery, please..."]

If the party split up; that was their choice. I'd run the campaign in a way that gave the players total freedom in designing the con. I'd design the mark; his personality, his tastes, what he's passionate about, what he hates. Work it all out and then let the PCs try and find an in (a way to get to him and something to base the con on; like offering a film aficionado a chance to make a lot of money off investing in a film) and leave designing the con to them.

I'd design the obstacles depending on where they are/what they're doing. On top of that; just because two members of the group are roping in the mark, it doesn't mean the others kick back at the hotel waiting for the signal. They could be organising other parts of the con - talking to forgers, organising places the mark may wish to see (such as an office the grifters have claimed to own). Remember; this wouldn't be a traditional DnD game. Really; it'd be more like d20 Fantasy Grifter or something and just happens to be set in Sharn. If I was running anything close to a normal DnD game, these mobile phones would not have a hope of existing.

EDIT: Hell; they could be running a whole bunch of short cons to get the money for the bait (watch just about any episode of Hustle and you'll see that at first, the mark is making a profit, but then gets suckered into a bigger deal where the grifters make off with a lot more money than they ever put into the con in the first place) or building up capital to set off the next con.

[mikau013]

<snip>
It certainly ruins a lot of plots. Look how many old film plots would have been solved with either invention.

Now all we need is some kind of magic through mobile phone delivery system and then we can ruin them all!

- Edit : fixed quotation tag