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BIGMamaSloth
2010-11-09, 09:53 PM
I just recently started playing D&D ( a couple months ago) and I was checking out tome of battle and really liked swordsage. I was telling my group that i wanted to play one but they said it was really over-powered and that they were basically gonna give some kind of penalties to my charecter to make it fair.

do you think this is fair? i dont really know how good they are compared to other classes. We're starting at level 1 and I'm being a human if that helps.

noiadodh
2010-11-09, 09:57 PM
roll a druid then, i bet that they wont think its overpowered until u roflpwnlollollol everyone in melee :smallbiggrin:

NelKor
2010-11-09, 09:58 PM
Not overpowered at all, it's a normal knee-jerk reaction to ToB and Psionics.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-09, 09:58 PM
Oh boy... the week haven't even finished and we got another Tob Thread /semi joke.

AFAIK the swordsage is considered to be the weakes of the three base classes introduced in ToB, having said that, they are definetly stronger than your run of the mill melee classes (such as monk which it is considered to be a replacement of).

The point is that is EXTREMELY hard to mess up a swordsage, and as such they are more powerful out of the box, if you group don't optimize much or have the Ideal party (beatstick, skillmonkey, healbot and blaster) a swordsage might seem overpowered.

herrhauptmann
2010-11-09, 10:13 PM
I just recently started playing D&D ( a couple months ago) and I was checking out tome of battle and really liked swordsage. I was telling my group that i wanted to play one but they said it was really over-powered and that they were basically gonna give some kind of penalties to my charecter to make it fair.

do you think this is fair? i dont really know how good they are compared to other classes. We're starting at level 1 and I'm being a human if that helps.

If they're going to slap you down with penalties just because they don't like a class, I'd suggest actually finding a new group (unless these are friends of yours). Especially if they're actually more experienced than you are in the game.

ToB is only overpowered if the core fighter with sword and shield is considered a powerful character at all levels. Measured against all classes played to their breakign point, ToB comes out at respectable levels. It's the base fighter that ends up being too weak.
But that's my opinion. Hopefully their nerfs won't make it impossible to play a swordsage. Although playing a batman wizard or something else extremely powerful just to mess with them is really a bad idea.

Coidzor
2010-11-09, 10:33 PM
do you think this is fair? i dont really know how good they are compared to other classes. We're starting at level 1 and I'm being a human if that helps.

No. Now if you were a druid and there was a houserule that there were only shapeshift variant druids available, that'd be fair.

As it stands, ToB should either be used or not.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-11-09, 10:40 PM
In my experience, both as a player and as a DM, sword sages are hardly overpowered. In fact, they have a tendency to fall behind the other ToB classes, and even certain core melee builds. Their recovery mechanic is horrible, and even with their feat patch/tax, if a battle goes on too long they will start to 'feel the burn.' They are poor endurance fighters, relative glass cannons.

Emmerask
2010-11-09, 10:51 PM
I just recently started playing D&D ( a couple months ago) and I was checking out tome of battle and really liked swordsage. I was telling my group that i wanted to play one but they said it was really over-powered and that they were basically gonna give some kind of penalties to my charecter to make it fair.

do you think this is fair? i dont really know how good they are compared to other classes. We're starting at level 1 and I'm being a human if that helps.

In general the swordsage is not overpowered, however

Without further knowledge of overall campaign powerlevel or what the other players will play there canīt be a simple yes or no answer :smallwink:

If everyone else has future builds like fighter 20 weapon focus ftw, barbarian 20, ranger 20 etc
then yes your swordsage will be overpowered, if they play around t3 then the swordsage is perfect, if t1 to t2 then you should optimize that swordsage quite a lot ^^

Lev
2010-11-09, 10:55 PM
Shame on you for playing something as powerful as a swordsage.
You should be playing a fighter with improved toughness and combat expertise.

Sarcasm aside, ToB was Wizard's way of replacing the fighters with:

A) A class that can compete with casters.
B) One that doesn't get weaker as it levels.
C) Classes that have more flavor than cardboard mush
D) Gives the fighter (aka swordsage/warblade/ect) OPTIONS..

Fighter's options (generalization):
A) Attack
B) Attack
C) Attack
D) Attack
E) RUN
F) Get a better position, and Attack
G) Defend
H) Get served



No, swordsage is not even tier 1, it's just that Barbarians and Fighters are so underpowered that anything that could actually take down a dragon looks overpowered in comparison.

tyckspoon
2010-11-09, 11:14 PM
In my experience, both as a player and as a DM, sword sages are hardly overpowered. In fact, they have a tendency to fall behind the other ToB classes, and even certain core melee builds. Their recovery mechanic is horrible, and even with their feat patch/tax, if a battle goes on too long they will start to 'feel the burn.' They are poor endurance fighters, relative glass cannons.

I know Adaptive Style is useful for a Swordsage, but I think it's more for the ability to reselect your readied maneuvers so you can access the other half of your Maneuvers Known than it is as a means of fixing their recovery mechanic. Swordsages can ready almost as many maneuvers as a Warblade even knows, and will generally be capable of using a boost or counter plus a strike for 3-5 rounds running. Which should be the significant part of most fights. They might not all be the absolute most appropriate maneuvers, but.. I would say that if you just wanted to use the same maneuvers over and over, you shouldn't have gone in for Swordsage to start with.

Zorzark
2010-11-09, 11:20 PM
It really depends on the rest of your group. Swordsage, and other ToB classes, get a strong start in the early levels and that can make them look a little too good to the level 1-4 group, depending on their mastery of the rules and the classes of their own PCs. Penalties shouldn't be required. Is it only Swordsage that's penalized, or all of the ToB?

HunterOfJello
2010-11-09, 11:22 PM
Don't accept unnecessary nerfs to your character because someone else doesn't understand it properly. Play a different character instead.

Instead, play a Druid as optimized as you can make him and once they complain enough, switch to your Swordsage.

Koury
2010-11-09, 11:25 PM
I know Adaptive Style is useful for a Swordsage, but I think it's more for the ability to reselect your readied maneuvers so you can access the other half of your Maneuvers Known than it is as a means of fixing their recovery mechanic. Swordsages can ready almost as many maneuvers as a Warblade even knows, and will generally be capable of using a boost or counter plus a strike for 3-5 rounds running. Which should be the significant part of most fights. They might not all be the absolute most appropriate maneuvers, but.. I would say that if you just wanted to use the same maneuvers over and over, you shouldn't have gone in for Swordsage to start with.

Ever played with a Swordsage without Adaptive Style? Ugh, painful to watch. And the Swordsage is the only one who ever runs out of maneuvers. Warblade is out? He keeps wailing away (most likely with a full attack by the time hes out). Crusader? Yeah, never out. Swordsage? Burns about 15% of his turns recovering, assuming he has AS.

Kylarra
2010-11-09, 11:33 PM
I highly recommend against the "play something T1 to show them that they are wrong" tactics.

Grynning
2010-11-09, 11:42 PM
Also, they're starting at level 1. A druid isn't going to blow anyone's minds until they pick up wild shape at level 4, and even then it may take a while before people start to notice the druid edging out the fighter. Their spell list isn't that impressive until higher levels, really (except for summoning). A Wizard or Sorcerer is still pretty solid from level 1, but even then a non-optimizing group may think the swordsages per encounter maneuvers vs. the casters per-day spells are "overpowered."

The power gap between a swordsage and a normal core melee character IS more glaring at the very low levels, so in this case, switching to a rogue, barbarian or fighter may be a good idea. Maybe build toward Saph's Core Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) or something.

Dralnu
2010-11-10, 01:22 AM
Swordsages can ready almost as many maneuvers as a Warblade even knows, and will generally be capable of using a boost or counter plus a strike for 3-5 rounds running. Which should be the significant part of most fights.

This is true. The versatility is the big advantage, both in terms of maneuvers known and readied, and shouldn't be overlooked. Also more skill points and probably better AC. I'd say that the Warblade is still ahead though. Better BAB (not huge considering we're using strikes), HP (big), recovery mechanic, and primary stat (INT compared to WIS). I'd even say that the class abilities are way better on the Warblade's end -- that's a ridiculous amount of bonus feats, which melee generally wants a lot of!

That's not to say that swordsages are bad. They're amazing at being melee and are tremendous fun. If anything, I think warblades are a little too good.

OracleofWuffing
2010-11-10, 01:51 AM
Any idea what, specifically, the penalties are going to be?

To people that haven't used ToB classes, Batmen Wizards, CoDzillas, Uberchargers, Ultratrippers, Habatabits, Pun-Puns, or housecats, a Swordsage will appear too powerful. I remember dominating that time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6192673&postcount=16) I first rolled out ToB on a DM. The fact of the matter, though, was that if the DM had any encounters with Fire Resistance or Immunity, half to 75% of my awesomeness would have been locked out.

What I'm circling around is that ToB classes are going to be a little different than melee classes, and I could expect there being cases where they'll give you penalties that don't really influence your character. At which point, yeah, you could just eat the penalty and keep playing as normal, maybe whine a bit about them so they don't catch on that you don't need full-round attacks or that additional point in STR.

LordBlades
2010-11-10, 02:29 AM
Would be interesting to know what the rest of the group is playing. If they play really weak chars (sword&board fighters, monks and the like) then a swordsage might be overpowered for that group.

Second: ask them why they think a swordsage is overpowered. I for one am really curious about their reasoning.

Kaww
2010-11-10, 02:50 AM
Second: ask them why they think a swordsage is overpowered. I for one am really curious about their reasoning.

+1

I pumped up ToB/martial classes in my campaign so they might keep up with the casters. If your group is avg wizard, cleric, fighter & rogue you will have more balance issues than wizard, cleric, swordsage & beguiler.

Then again that's my experience, and my copper piece.

Lev
2010-11-10, 03:08 AM
Would be interesting to know what the rest of the group is playing. If they play really weak chars (sword&board fighters, monks and the like) then a swordsage might be overpowered for that group.

Second: ask them why they think a swordsage is overpowered. I for one am really curious about their reasoning.
Fighter, Truenamer, Horizonwalker and a wizard with 3 base int.

Godless_Paladin
2010-11-10, 03:11 AM
I was telling my group that i wanted to play one but they said it was really over-powered and that they were basically gonna give some kind of penalties to my charecter to make it fair.

do you think this is fair?

No.

It is highly likely that your group has no idea what they are talking about. Tough luck, eh?

Morph Bark
2010-11-10, 05:21 AM
Fighter, Truenamer, Horizonwalker and a wizard with 3 base int.

Base 3 Int still makes the Wizard better than the rest, especially if he's of a +Int race, after aging to venerable, getting a tome, adding all level bonuses to stats onto Int, can easily get to 18. 9th-level spells are then still out of reach unless he constantly wears a +Int magic item though.


But yeah, the Swordsage isn't that bad, especially since its recovery mechanic is the worst of the ToB classes. If you're at level 1, it may be understandable a little, since at level 1 ToB classes overshadow other melee classes a bit due to their special moves. If they're over level 5 and the others picked their feats right they shouldn't complain though, or the party members should discuss and divide their roles better so you don't have too many melee-ers on the same role.

Greenish
2010-11-10, 09:03 AM
A druid isn't going to blow anyone's minds until they pick up wild shape at level 4 5Fixed that.

I'd even say that the class abilities are way better on the Warblade's end -- that's a ridiculous amount of bonus feats, which melee generally wants a lot of!4 over 20 levels, picked from a very poor list is "ridiculous"? :smallamused:

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 09:32 AM
Warblade is out? He keeps wailing away (most likely with a full attack by the time hes out).

Warblades run out? What happened to: Take a swift action then attack = maneuver recovery?

Greenish
2010-11-10, 09:52 AM
Warblades run out? What happened to: Take a swift action then attack = maneuver recovery?That's what he said.

Douglas
2010-11-10, 11:26 AM
Also, they're starting at level 1. A druid isn't going to blow anyone's minds until they pick up wild shape at level 4, and even then it may take a while before people start to notice the druid edging out the fighter.
You're forgetting the Animal Companion, which can almost match a typical Fighter all by itself.

faceroll
2010-11-10, 11:39 AM
Also, they're starting at level 1. A druid isn't going to blow anyone's minds until they pick up wild shape at level 4, and even then it may take a while before people start to notice the druid edging out the fighter. Their spell list isn't that impressive until higher levels, really (except for summoning). A Wizard or Sorcerer is still pretty solid from level 1, but even then a non-optimizing group may think the swordsages per encounter maneuvers vs. the casters per-day spells are "overpowered."

Level 5.
But if in core, get a Riding Dog AC, put animal fang on it. Against most level 1 enemies, it's going to knock them down.

If outside of core, take the feats Wild Cohort and Natural Bond. For the Wild Cohort, get a Warbeast Riding dog. For the Animal Companion, get a Warbeast Fleshraker.

Pwn everything.

El Dorado
2010-11-10, 11:47 AM
It also depends on what classes the rest of the group is playing. Not to mention how they are playing those classes. My buddy had been playing a mid-level druid and almost dropped it because he thought our party needed "more melee". Don't worry, I stopped him. :smallwink:

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 11:57 AM
Ehehehe....

I actually think I know what this is about. BIGMamaSloth, are you in Mr Kee's newbie game?

If so, I'm the one who made the comment, and for everyone else here, this is why...

- The game starts at level 1. Now, I love ToB, but martial adepts get off to a faster start than most other classes. That evens out a bit after a few levels, but I'd put them substantially ahead in power in early game.

- Everyone else in the game, or at least the vast majority, has never even made a D&D character before and have no access to expanded resources. There's a fair amount of expert help going around, but we're talking the newbiest of newbies. Like, still figuring out what dice to roll, and thinking that Self-Sufficient and Acrobatic are awesome feats.

- That same day I made the comment, the DM (experienced in 4th ed but not 3rd) was looking over someone else's character sheet, a Samurai with no stat modifier higher than a +2, and was telling them they were massively overpowered. I stepped in to try and correct that mistake, but hopefully that illustrates the kind of group we're talking about.

....so in that context, yes, I think it's appropriate that the more experienced player throwing together a Swordsage should face some RP restrictions. Not massive ones, and not permanent ones, but I think it's fair to put some dampers on.

Douglas
2010-11-10, 12:56 PM
- That same day I made the comment, the DM (experienced in 4th ed but not 3rd) was looking over someone else's character sheet, a Samurai with no stat modifier higher than a +2, and was telling them they were massively overpowered.
*blink*

What.

Ok, with that kind of background, yes a Swordsage is extremely overpowered. Tome of Battle is not overpowered in general, but its bottom end of typical power is a lot higher than the bottom end for typical non-ToB melee, and it sounds like the specific game in question is hitting the really low end. In that case, any ToB character will outclass everyone else.

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 01:03 PM
*blink*

What.

Ok, with that kind of background, yes a Swordsage is extremely overpowered. Tome of Battle is not overpowered in general, but its bottom end of typical power is a lot higher than the bottom end for typical non-ToB melee, and it sounds like the specific game in question is hitting the really low end. In that case, any ToB character will outclass everyone else.
Indeed, that was my thought exactly. Instead of banning the class, though, I though the better course was merely to recommend some RP restrictions. My idea was something like a branded criminal, with one or more of the other PCs specifically assigned to watch him. He'd have all his proper stats, but be limited in material resources, and more importantly, have very limited trust put in him by other characters and NPCs. It'd be his choice what the crime was, and whether he was actually guilty of it, and there'd be the potential for redemption and/or vindication either way as he truly becomes a hero... or he could embrace the criminal side, whichever.

...on the other hand, there's going to be a Sorcerer with the Sleep spell around, and honestly that might be more worrying from a balance standpoint than a Swordsage, but that's something for the DM to cope with. I was just advising.

Kaww
2010-11-10, 01:03 PM
- That same day I made the comment, the DM (experienced in 4th ed but not 3rd) was looking over someone else's character sheet, a Samurai with no stat modifier higher than a +2, and was telling them they were massively overpowered. I stepped in to try and correct that mistake, but hopefully that illustrates the kind of group we're talking about.


Aghm, does (s)he know what (s)he is doing? I mean we all started somehow(more or less knowing what we were doing), but this looks like a bad start to me...

JaronK
2010-11-10, 05:17 PM
An important point here is that ToB classes have a much smaller power curve than many other classes. That is to say, they don't change in power as much as some others when you optimize them... or don't. This often means they'll seem over powered in a really unoptimized game, especially around level 1-5 (where they look the strongest).

While a Wizard or Druid would still be stronger, it's much easier to mess those classes up enough that you don't notice.

JaronK

herrhauptmann
2010-11-10, 05:39 PM
....so in that context, yes, I think it's appropriate that the more experienced player throwing together a Swordsage should face some RP restrictions. Not massive ones, and not permanent ones, but I think it's fair to put some dampers on.

Ahh, RP restrictions. What is sounded like (at least to me) was that the OP would be getting mechanical restrictions as well.
Such as: All attack maneuvers get a d20 + stat, no BAB, no magic.
-Have to take flaws for will and fort saves, but don't get any bonus feats.

Those, are what I would think of as flaws someone might get to 'balance' their character.

Now having knowledge of the group, I would definitely recommend against playing as a Tier 1 character to spite the DM.
If someone knowledgeable does play a Tier 1 character, don't play it to its capacity. Play it to the groups level. Might be more boring, but you won't ruin the game for everyone else. Especially if the DM ends up trying to challenge your character with encounters that would kill everyone else. (And if his sense of 'power' is that off, then he's likely terrible at building encounters too)

Coidzor
2010-11-10, 05:47 PM
Habatabits

whoa, whoa, whoa. What is this? I'd heard of the rest of them before, but what's this one here?

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 05:50 PM
Yes, please clarify.

Irbis
2010-11-10, 06:30 PM
Of course Swordsages are overpowered. I fought one with optimized core PC 8 levels higher, and yet, I still lost! :smallannoyed:

Toptomcat
2010-11-10, 06:55 PM
Of course Swordsages are overpowered. I fought one with optimized core PC 8 levels higher, and yet, I still lost! :smallannoyed:

Optimizing Commoner can be tough like that.

sonofzeal
2010-11-10, 06:57 PM
Optimizing Commoner can be tough like that.
Unless your name is "Bubs". ;)

Irbis
2010-11-10, 07:00 PM
Optimizing Commoner can be tough like that.

It was Warrior, not commoner, TYVM. And I grabbed every trick, tripping, charging, reach, power attack, you name it :|

OracleofWuffing
2010-11-10, 08:06 PM
whoa, whoa, whoa. What is this? I'd heard of the rest of them before, but what's this one here?

Yes, please clarify.

You know, the campaign-specific build that gets you an AC, Familiar, Wild Cohort, and Mount on the same character and negative 4 LA so you can take more templates without losing caster levels. It just loses +1 BAB at level 4, must have at least one neutral alignment component, and really the fluff doesn't rely a whole lot on the campaign setting as-is so most DMs will let you play it anyways.

It's an obligatory imaginary build that doesn't exist and was just thrown in as a humor option to emphasize how many different game-breaking or otherwise powerful archetypes exist in the community. So, yeah, pat yourselves on the back for being the first people to detect that one!

Granted, I missed Diplomancer on there, but oh well!

Susano-wo
2010-11-10, 08:07 PM
ragequit his game!
don't ever play with someone who restricts your class!
don't play SS unless you can get it at full power!
rabble rabble rabble!
seriously...I know its par for the course, but there's nothing wrong with a DM imposing penalties to rbing a class in line with a certain power level. The particular penalties may or may not be too much, case by case, but its rather shortsighted to assume that the DM is out of line, before hearing anything else about the campaign:smallannoyed:

Coidzor
2010-11-10, 08:14 PM
seriously...I know its par for the course, but there's nothing wrong with a DM imposing penalties to rbing a class in line with a certain power level. The particular penalties may or may not be too much, case by case, but its rather shortsighted to assume that the DM is out of line, before hearing anything else about the campaign:smallannoyed:

If the DM doesn't want Swordsages it only makes sense to recommend to not play one, especially since one never knows how petty or volatile an unknown DM might be.

Plus pessimism means you're either pleasantly surprised or not disappointed.

Susano-wo
2010-11-10, 08:23 PM
If the DM doesn't want Swordsages it only makes sense to recommend to not play one, especially since one never knows how petty or volatile an unknown DM might be.

Plus pessimism means you're either pleasantly surprised or not disappointed.

I could understand that, if we had info that the DM was not wanting them. DM just thinks they are overpwoered, and wants to bring em down a notch. ANd it doesn't sound like a bad idea, now that we've found out the Op level

absolmorph
2010-11-10, 09:15 PM
Unless your name is "Bubs". ;)
Technically, he's a Marshal, too.

Coidzor
2010-11-10, 09:32 PM
I could understand that, if we had info that the DM was not wanting them. DM just thinks they are overpwoered, and wants to bring em down a notch. ANd it doesn't sound like a bad idea, now that we've found out the Op level

My analysis was that in thinking they were overpowered, the DM expressed his dislike and lack of desire to have them in his game.

Psyren
2010-11-11, 12:03 AM
ragequit his game!
don't ever play with someone who restricts your class!
don't play SS unless you can get it at full power!
rabble rabble rabble!

Your sarcasm meter explodes!
The shards crit you for 17d6 x3 slashing and piercing damage!
You die.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-11-11, 03:12 AM
...

Given the levels of new across the board (a DM dropping an OP line on a freaking standard Samurai!?), any ToB class will be destined to come out of the gate looking like a Hulk/Gandalf hybrid. Flaws aside, the classes in the book are so much better balanced in terms of inherent power progression that it's obscene. A poorly designed Swordsage is still roughly on par with most decently assembled core combatants.

Godless_Paladin
2010-11-11, 04:26 AM
(a DM dropping an OP line on a freaking standard Samurai!?)

The Samurai is pretty much the worst class in the game. I'd say this



It is highly likely that your group has no idea what they are talking about. Tough luck, eh?

is pretty much confirmed.

absolmorph
2010-11-11, 05:14 AM
The Samurai is pretty much the worst class in the game. I'd say this



is pretty much confirmed.
It's definitely not the worst. A build focusing on Samurai (yes, CW Samurai) can be made dangerous using the class's features.
Just ask Shneeky.
There are, of course, Commoner, Aristocrat, Warrior and Truenamer.
... I don't see how Samurai would look over-powered, though. He can... swing two swords (that he gets for free at creation) better than normal? And that's not even at level 1.

Assuming sonofzeal's addition is, in fact, from the same game, it's confirmed they don't know what they're talking about, since they're new to DnD.

JaronK
2010-11-11, 05:15 AM
While the Samurai isn't overpowered, it's still possible to make a build that would be overpowered in many games using purely the Samurai... mostly using Shock Trooper/Spirited Charge/Headlong Rush. Of course, that's true for any full BAB class, including the Warrior.

JaronK

Eldan
2010-11-11, 05:26 AM
Your sarcasm meter explodes!
The shards crit you for 17d6 x3 slashing and piercing damage!
You die.

This is a forum, not ADOM. :smalltongue:

Anyway, my advice would not be to limit the swordsage. Instead, sit down with the other players and explain to them why their characters are suboptimal. Make a few examples on how to improve them, show them what D&Ds base assumptions on character strength are. Not optimization, mind you. But if you have a Samurai like that, you seem to be even below the assumed party of healer, tank, blaster and skillmonkey. It seems that at least sonofzeal seems to be a bit more experienced, so I think he could help out there.

Edit: actually, a Samurai won the Test of Spite once, if I remember correctly. By intimidating an enemy caster so he couldn't take any actions anymore, forever, then hitting them with a sword.

Greenish
2010-11-11, 06:34 AM
He can... swing two swords (that he gets for free at creation) better than normal? And that's not even at level 1.OA Samurai gets free swords, CW samurai doesn't.

Edit: actually, a Samurai won the Test of Spite once, if I remember correctly. By intimidating an enemy caster so he couldn't take any actions anymore, forever, then hitting them with a sword.Yeah, the aforementioned Shneekey's intimidator. The match is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885).

That said, one trick ponies aren't that fun in actual campaigns.

Runestar
2010-11-11, 06:47 AM
Be careful though - the swordsage can be capable of huge spikes in damage. I once accidentally 1-shotted what was meant to be a very tough encounter this way, and had a very hard time convincing my DM that it wasn't overpowered.

What happened was my 5th lv swordsage, who under the benefit of haste, initiated burning blade (all attacks get 1d6+5 fire damage) followed by flashing sun (extra attack, all attacks -2 to-hit), in tandem with assassin's stance (+2d6 SA damage per hit) and shadow blade (uses dex to damage instead of str).

So I made 3 attacks, each of which dealt 4d6+10 damage total (averaging 24 damage), all of which hit (dealing over 70 damage total), much more than what the party fighter could manage at this juncture.:smalltongue:

grarrrg
2010-11-11, 07:12 AM
Shame on you for playing something as powerful as a swordsage.
You should be playing a fighter with improved toughness and combat expertise.

WHOA, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Whoa.
Hold on there Chester. Improved Toughness?? What are you trying to pull? We don't put up with THAT kind of cheese around here.

Eldan
2010-11-11, 07:15 AM
Fighters should take weapon focus two to three times, so they can be versatile and use several weapons effectively.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-11, 08:40 AM
I agree with all the people on here who are telling you to roll up another character that is tier 1-tier 2. That's personally what I would do though I would chose clericzilla over druidzilla because I personally prefer the flavor and spell list of the cleric to the flavor and spell list of the druid, but that's more or less my RPer side coming out. I also am not a big fan of playing neutral, my favored alignment being lawful evil....so yeah...but anyway...If you make them understand how broken some of the core classes are then they are more apt to give the swordsage a second look. However, if unlike me you actually would feel bad if you trolled their campaign/acted like a general ******* then you should educate them on the tier system and prove to them that a swordsage is far less broken then many other classes.

Eldan
2010-11-11, 08:47 AM
Really?

"They aren't very proficient in the rules of the game, so break their campaign and be a huge douchebag?"

Honestly, that should never be an appropriate response. Telling them, yes. But those people are, I assume, your friends. You don't ruin their game just because they are new to it and still have a lot to learn about the rules.

dsmiles
2010-11-11, 09:15 AM
Really?

"They aren't very proficient in the rules of the game, so break their campaign and be a huge douchebag?"

Honestly, that should never be an appropriate response. Telling them, yes. But those people are, I assume, your friends. You don't ruin their game just because they are new to it and still have a lot to learn about the rules.

Ditto. Don't be a douchebag. It's poor form.

Emmerask
2010-11-11, 09:27 AM
I agree with all the people on here who are telling you to roll up another character that is tier 1-tier 2. That's personally what I would do though I would chose clericzilla over druidzilla because I personally prefer the flavor and spell list of the cleric to the flavor and spell list of the druid, but that's more or less my RPer side coming out. I also am not a big fan of playing neutral, my favored alignment being lawful evil....so yeah...but anyway...If you make them understand how broken some of the core classes are then they are more apt to give the swordsage a second look. However, if unlike me you actually would feel bad if you trolled their campaign/acted like a general ******* then you should educate them on the tier system and prove to them that a swordsage is far less broken then many other classes.

This clearly is not enough, I mean wtf they are clearly playing the game all wrong. This really should be punishable by law <insert stallone voice over>.
If they even dare to have fun when playing the game all wrong then the only solution I see is a good beating to dissuade them from that clearly stupid idea!
Maybe ruining their campaign is not enough though perhaps you can do something to ruin their real life too?

Eldan
2010-11-11, 09:37 AM
You spelt "THE LOARGH" wrong in your Stallone voice.

DrGonzo
2010-11-11, 09:38 AM
This clearly is not enough, I mean wtf they are clearly playing the game all wrong. This really should be punishable by law <insert stallone voice over>.
If they even dare to have fun when playing the game all wrong then the only solution I see is a good beating to dissuade them from that clearly stupid idea!
Maybe ruining their campaign is not enough though perhaps you can do something to ruin their real life too?

Seconded. And after the game, burn down their house!

Bet seriously, what's wrong with just explaining things, or showing them the way to these forums here?

sonofzeal
2010-11-11, 09:49 AM
Seconded. And after the game, burn down their house!

Bet seriously, what's wrong with just explaining things, or showing them the way to these forums here?
Ahem.... I've been here since Jan '08. :smallamused: Here's the context (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9735853&postcount=29) for the comment I made to the guy. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

DrGonzo
2010-11-11, 09:55 AM
Ahem.... I've been here since Jan '08. :smallamused: Here's the context (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9735853&postcount=29) for the comment I made to the guy. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

Oh, but I wasn't attacking you, I was merely building on the momentum of emmerasks post.

Susano-wo
2010-11-11, 02:19 PM
Your sarcasm meter explodes!
The shards crit you for 17d6 x3 slashing and piercing damage!
You die.

what?! his sarcasm, its....Over 9000!!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5uYAwErEWE)::scrunch::

Also, I agree that a better option, for me at least, would be to bring the other players up a bit, rather than nerfing the SS

Irbis
2010-11-11, 02:44 PM
Bet seriously, what's wrong with just explaining things, or showing them the way to these forums here?

Because it might ruin the game for them? Seriously. Some players are not interested/don't have time/not capable of keeping with arms race between optimizing PCs and the DM, making their PCs utterly inefficient and the game less interesting for them.

IMHO, he should talk to them, and explain what they might lose by adopting CO mindset. If they still want to do so, great, but if not, he should take some lower-powered, but still flashy Swordsage-like class (like Duskblade, Favoured Soul, Battle Sorcerer) and play more on their level even if he ends up optimizing it.

grarrrg
2010-11-11, 03:49 PM
what?! his sarcasm, its....Over 9000!!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5uYAwErEWE)::scrunch::

Uh, dude? 17d6 x3 does between 51 and 306 damage. Nowhere near 9000, let alone OVER NINE-THOUSAND!!!!!!!

Psyren
2010-11-11, 04:07 PM
Uh, dude? 17d6 x3 does between 51 and 306 damage. Nowhere near 9000, let alone OVER NINE-THOUSAND!!!!!!!

It's just a meme (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-over-9000) :smalltongue:

Susano-wo
2010-11-11, 04:20 PM
It's just a meme (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-over-9000) :smalltongue:

and I was not refering to the damage, but my level of sarcasm, whbich was undefined(but at least 9001 :P)

Also sarcasm damage has a times 30 crit:smalltongue: