OOTS #757 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[mucat]

"A fool, but we can still talk this out!"

I love Elan's lack of delusions.

[Conuly]

Except with regards to his dad, that is.

[ThePhantom]

Yes, Tarquin is evil. Torture, and offing the husband of the women you want to marry is evil.

At least Elan is closer to seeing the fact of his dad being evil to core.

[Mercutio]

Heh. Blue feet. :smallamused:

[Ganurath]

At least Elan is closer to seeing the fact of his dad being evil to core.Your optimism amuses me. As do cold feet.

[Conuly]

Hey wait - *squints* In the third panel, is he... IS HE CROSSING HIS FINGERS BEHIND HIS BACK?

Isn't that a little childish? Why not just lie like a grown-up?

Also, I can't believe Elan doesn't see the dramatic potential in a scar like an evil goatee. C'mon, Elan, this is your only skillset. It's a cut, at a tense moment. It indicates something about the character. It's squiggly and on your father's chin. The only person with a goatee is evil Nale. Think about it, sweetie, think about it!

[Marnath]

Well, I'm dissapointed in Elan for still not getting the picture, but I have hope now that the revelation is coming. I still wonder what Tarquin brought him up here for.

[ref]

Oooh, which one is that. Mrs. Tarquin the second? Mrs. Tarquin the seventh, mayhaps?

[Kuzimu]

Thanks for putting this one up so quickly!

Absolutely loved the reference to a certain story!

[Querzis]

Hey wait - *squints* In the third panel, is he... IS HE CROSSING HIS FINGERS BEHIND HIS BACK?

Isn't that a little childish? Why not just lie like a grown-up?

Why would he be crossing his fingers behind his back in that panel? Nothing he says sounds like a lie, he most definitly didnt do all of this just because of the ambassador but I'm sure he took out some of his anger on her people just for the evulz. Anyway, he used the same pose very often before, I have no idea why you would think hes crossing his fingers now instead of the other dozen times he did it.

And honestly, what would you expect Elan to do? He really got nothing else he can do right now except talking about it. Turning against Tarquin definitly isnt a good idea and not just because of his guards but because of that whole «end of the world» thing that will happen if they dont find Girard.

[slayerx]

Call me crazy, but i think we might be seeing why Tarquin's wives don't last too long...

kinda makes me wonder how many times Tarquin might have had to be raised after being killed in his sleep... those pesky resurrection spells make revenge so damn hard

[Laws of Chaos]

I don't know, but Elan may be figuring this all out? But it is Elan, so he may need more assistance.

[turkishproverb]

Tarquin is affibly evil.

Mind you, not: Tarquin is affibly evil, but Tarquin is affibly evil.

[Stomp]

Tarquin is so cool! And Rich is on fire making new strips so fast!

[Conuly]

And honestly, what would you expect Elan to do? He really got nothing else he can do right now except talking about it. Turning against Tarquin definitly isnt a good idea and not just because of his guards but because of that whole «end of the world» thing that will happen if they dont find Girard.

You're arguing that Elan has figured it out, but is smart enough to keep his mouth shut?


Nothing he says sounds like a lie,

"Oh, I would *never* do something like *that*"

That part sounds like a lie to me. And it seems a silly thing to care about lying about, surely "at least, I didn't this time" is the bigger issue (if it's true or not).

But why do you think he had bigger fish to fry there? Given his progeny, is he really likely to be such a good tactician? Making stupid decisions because they help him out is both evil and less than totally clever - kinda like Nale!


But it is Elan, so he may need more assistance.

♩Realize, realize, realize how evil your father truly is! ♫

[Maximum Zersk]

I think I had cold feet once. Damn wizards... >.>

[SaintRidley]

Yes, new comic in the last half hour of my birthday!

[Thanatosia]

"'til then did you part, it would seem."

OMG

Never have I laughed so hard at anything so evil before.

Damn he's a magnificent Bastard if there ever was one.

[Mr. Scaly]

Wow.

Wow.

I swear, Xykon's about to lose his 'evil in style' award because THAT was sick!

[Gift Jeraff]

Tarquin may very well be the second-most so-efficiently-Evil-it-scares-you villain next to Xykon. (Yes, the Snarl is loads scarier than either, but I wouldn't classify it as a villain at the moment.) I guess I don't find the IFFC that fearsome since you expect archfiends to be even worse.

And I really like the cold feet joke and the implication that Tarquin once served under a green-themed nation before. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: My thoughts exactly, Mr. Scaly. :smalleek:

[Shpadoinkle]

Okay... I know Elan isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he can't seriously be THAT oblivious, can he? Please tell me he's not actually that stupid and it's just an act.

[Maethirion]

Brilliant strip today :smallsmile:
I do love Tarquin's not-so-subtle manipulations
Very much impressed

[Gerli]

"Something Blue" :smallbiggrin:

[SPoD]

Okay... I know Elan isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he can't seriously be THAT oblivious, can he? Please tell me he's not actually that stupid and it's just an act.

He IS getting it, but it's slow-going. Look at his expression in the second-to-last panel; he's getting angry with his dad. He wants to believe that his father isn't Evil, but it's getting harder and harder.

As I said about yesterday's strip, that was the first step towards accepting that his dad is a villain. This is the second. Around the fifth step, I think we'll see Elan openly admitting it and then acting against him. But it's hard to accept that the absent father figure you've been fantasizing about all your life doesn't live up to your expectations. People far smarter than Elan have trouble with situations like this.

[Acero]

Okay, I'm thinking Taquin is just stupid now. Really, he still wants to marry the girl after taking over a city and then admiting it to his Chaotic Good long-lost son?

[Nota Biene]

Wow. That is a really, seriously creepy picture a deeply evil man. At this point, I don't think its Elan's stupidity that is keeping him from the realization, as others have mentioned, he just really, really wants to believe that his dad is a good guy.

[Zwums]

Okay... I know Elan isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he can't seriously be THAT oblivious, can he? Please tell me he's not actually that stupid and it's just an act.

PRECISELY what I thought. I'm just really hoping that if he is that oblivious, then at least his ignorance will be lifted shortly.

[DrivinAllNight]

wow, and i had thought elan had grown some in previous strips, maybe not :(

[Mecharious]

Elan is really thick...

[Fargazer]

Poor Elan. What a fool he is.

[Porthos]

He wants to believe that his father isn't Evil, but it's getting harder and harder.

This is it exactly. Elan, for the lack of a better term, regressed mentally somewhat when he saw his father. He wants to recapture the time he never got to spend with a father, and thus he is acting more childlike than usual. He is also ignoring all of the evidence that is staring him in the face. Or at least he is trying to.

But as things become more and more obvious, the inevitable break will loom large.

I figure that it's all going to lead up to when Elan sees Roy fighting for his life in the Arena. Roy in many respects was a substitue father figure for Elan. If he sees his real life father keeping his substitute father in a fight to the death...

... Well, that will cause problems. :smallamused:

Now it might not go down that exact way. Maybe something else will be the straw that broke the camel's back. But I do think that slowly but surely Elan is getting over his denial when it comes to Tarquin.

It's quite a good amount of character devlopment, actually.

[Belsirk]

New comic is up.

Nice Nice

JOKE: I'm pretty sure Tarquin isn't evil, just a little chaotic, but not way Evil :smalltongue:

[Hamilkar]

Ahhhh Elan. A shame that Harly isn't there to 'explain' his fathers actions to him.

[Marnath]

Ahhhh Elan. A shame that Harly isn't there to 'explain' his fathers actions to him.

Might be good Haley isn't here, he's been ignoring her so far, and he might make actual progress when he can't blame the warning signs on her paranoia.

[Porthos]

Okay, I'm thinking Taquin is just stupid now. Really, he still wants to marry the girl after taking over a city
Nothing a little torture won't solve. :smallamused:

and then admiting it to his Chaotic Good long-lost son?
This admittedly is more difficult. But he might be testing his son, just to see how he will react in certain situations.

We did have foreshadowing a while back that Tarquin plans to use Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html) With the heavy implication that Tarquin's plans will still succeed even if Elan becomes antagonistic toward him.

[Grendus]

Elan's naivete surprises even me. But then, we have a little knowledge he doesn't (not much, other than cannon that Tarquin is lawful evil which Elan may or may not have - it was a cutscene from Nale - and a few of Tarquin's cutscenes).

I do suspect that Tarquin's plan will be foiled by Roy and Belkar, since those are the two members of the OOtS that he hasn't accounted for. Anxiously awaiting the next strip.

[Martok]

Well there goes the delusions of those who were insisting Tarquin could still be Chaotic and not Evil! Not that there was really ever much doubt to begin with.


I too am curious as to exactly how much longer Elan will remain in denial about his father. It obviously can't last too much longer, but I'm not sure it's going to end quite as quickly as some seem to think it will -- as others have pointed out, it's going to be extremely difficult for him to accept Tarquin as being truly evil.





I do suspect that Tarquin's plan will be foiled by Roy and Belkar, since those are the two members of the OOtS that he hasn't accounted for. Anxiously awaiting the next strip.
Personally, I still suspect Tarquin knows all about Roy and Belkar (or at least enough about them to realize they're Elan and Haley's friends), and that he has -- whatever his reasons may be -- simply chosen not to reveal this knowledge yet.

Not that I'm trying to make Tarquin out to be some all-knowing omniscient being. However, he does strike me as the type who plays his cards very close to the vest, and frequently doesn't let on all that he knows (unless & until it's to his advantage to do so).

[DougTheHead]

Okay, I'm thinking Taquin is just stupid now. Really, he still wants to marry the girl after taking over a city and then admiting it to his Chaotic Good long-lost son?

NO ONE denies him. Nale got that from him too.

[factotum]

OK, I'm a little irritated by Elan now. He's just had the equivalent of being smacked upside the head with a Clue Bat and he STILL doesn't get it. This is going beyond the end of stupid, IMHO.

[Leolo]

I think Elan is now in the situation of thekla. He knows that the guy he is protecting is evil - but he does not accept that this has to be solved by his fathers death.

And of course this would not be that easy anyway.

[Killer Angel]

I too am curious as to exactly how much longer Elan will remain in denial about his father.


OK, I'm a little irritated by Elan now. He's just had the equivalent of being smacked upside the head with a Clue Bat and he STILL doesn't get it. This is going beyond the end of stupid, IMHO.

Don't worry, my friends.
Elan will see the truth in the moment with the higher sense of drama. It's his prerogative. :smallcool:

[SPoD]

OK, I'm a little irritated by Elan now. He's just had the equivalent of being smacked upside the head with a Clue Bat and he STILL doesn't get it. This is going beyond the end of stupid, IMHO.

No, it's not. Denial is not the same thing as stupidity. Elan understands that what was done was bad, but he's trying to rationalize it. That's a very common response.

Real people don't switch their opinions of their loved ones at the first sign of trouble. They need time and/or repeated transgressions to overcome their preconceived notions. Elan is acting entirely normally, and you're just so used to him being dumb that you're assuming it's because of his intelligence. It's not.

[Thanatosia]

OK, I'm a little irritated by Elan now. He's just had the equivalent of being smacked upside the head with a Clue Bat and he STILL doesn't get it. This is going beyond the end of stupid, IMHO.
What do you expect him to do? Openly attack his father while alone, seperated from his friends, in the middle of the Empire of Blood, surrounded by his father's Guards? That's even stupider then you perceive Elan to be. He could very well 'get' that his father is Evil, but also simply 'get' that now is not the time to act on it.

I think Elan is now in the situation of thekla. He nows that the guy he is protecting is evil - but he does not accept that this has to be solved by his fathers death.
But even moreso then my above argument, this.

[StClair]

Damn, that was cold.
And I don't mean the last panel.

[SPoD]

I think Elan is now in the situation of thekla. He nows that the guy he is protecting is evil - but he does not accept that this has to be solved by his fathers death.

Exactly. Remember, Elan has repeatedly prevented Nale from being executed, and Nale is far more openly Evil than Tarquin. And Elan is far more attached to the idea of a benevolent father than he was to any preconception about a brother that he didn't know he had.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, he objected to Kubota being executed as well. No, no matter what he's thinking here, it would have been far more out of character to turn his sword on Tarquin at this point.

[Quorothorn]

Whoa. :smalleek: How about that Tarquin fellow, eh?

[ss49]

"... accidentally killed her husband!"

I don't think so, Elan.:smallcool:

[Mjoellnir]

And again I wonder what the heck Haley sees in that complete moron.... The only use he has is being tossed through a rift to the Snarl so the huge black hole between his ears sucks in the god-killing abomination.

[moonbiter]

At some point, adorable obliviousness becomes annoying stupidity. Elan is quickly approaching that point. \:roy:

[Maryring]

Tarquin just went straight from being interesting to being a guy who should be killed painfully soon. He's up there with Xykon on being utterly rotten and disgusting.

[Johel]

I love how Tarquin is purposfully obvious to the feelings of WhatHerName.
This is really the mark of a dominating, ruthless person who take his desires as granted, whatever the opinions of others.

Also, why this obessession about getting married to her ?

He has already slept with her so it's not like he has any reserve about bedding a woman that isn't his wife.
And we know for a fact that he tends to have his women killed once they get pregnant so it's not even about avoiding illegitimate children.

[Pronounceable]

No one denies Tarquin either it seems.

[Morph Bark]

woah wat

That was fast, getting this new comic. :smalleek:

Also, the joke in the last panel was just cold.

[Callista]

Okay... I know Elan isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he can't seriously be THAT oblivious, can he? Please tell me he's not actually that stupid and it's just an act.Not stupid so much as idealistic. Elan wants to believe the best of everyone he meets. When Nale first betrayed him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html), it was like he couldn't even believe it. Some of the same is going on here. Elan wants to believe that people are basically good, that things will always work out, and that every story has a happy ending. He's so innocent that he almost doesn't understand evil. If you offered him ultimate power in exchange for doing something horrible, he'd just look at you and go, "But that's mean; why would I do that?"

The same phenomenon exists on the other side of the spectrum too, of course. Both Xykon and Belkar are so thoroughly sociopathic that they don't really understand the concept of good. Xykon was completely surprised by the fact that a group of paladins might carry out a plan that involved self-sacrifice; and Belkar still doesn't understand the concept of doing something that doesn't directly benefit him. Elan's like that, too, only alignment-flipped.

[Cerlis]

No, it's not. Denial is not the same thing as stupidity. Elan understands that what was done was bad, but he's trying to rationalize it. That's a very common response.

Real people don't switch their opinions of their loved ones at the first sign of trouble. They need time and/or repeated transgressions to overcome their preconceived notions. Elan is acting entirely normally, and you're just so used to him being dumb that you're assuming it's because of his intelligence. It's not.

THAAAANK YOU

really people, I think everyone is forgetting something really important. Not only is Tarquinn the father figure that Elan probably fantasized about all his life just given to him so suddenly. But its his FATHER. You dont just turned on your loved ones the moment they do something bad. If my father where to suddenly come at me at a knife my initial reaction would probably be shock and confusion. As i'm sure would be the same with most anyone. And we see that Elan does seem shocked and confused. And Tarquinn hasn't even done anything that hostile.

LISTEN to Elan. "Did those people do something really bad to you?" Thats the sign of someone who really loves you, is they have faith in you. I know plenty people who think the worst of their "friends" the moment something bad happens and dont even give them a chance to explain.


I love how Tarquin is purposfully obvious to the feelings of WhatHerName.
This is really the mark of a dominating, ruthless person who take his desires as granted, whatever the opinions of others.

Also, why this obessession about getting married to her ?

He has already slept with her so it's not like he has any reserve about bedding a woman that isn't his wife.
And we know for a fact that he tends to have his women killed once they get pregnant so it's not even about avoiding illegitimate children.

I think you answered your question with your second statement :P

He is an evil man who wants law and order firmly under his heal. His wife just died, he wants a wife, he's already tried out this model and wants it. And nothing so unimportant as her feeling or her freedom or human rights will get in his way

[IronRaptor]

Longtime Lurker, first time poster.

Just wanted to stop in and say that even though I know it's probably going to end soon, I have enjoyed the chemistry of Elan and Elan's dad. The drama and the witty banter (at least maybe on Elan's dad) have been top notch.

Good writing as usual Giant, thanks.

[Leolo]

OK, I'm a little irritated by Elan now. He's just had the equivalent of being smacked upside the head with a Clue Bat and he STILL doesn't get it. This is going beyond the end of stupid, IMHO.

I think it is more like the end of elan beiing stupid. At the start of the adventure elan would have simple ignored those things. He would have accepted every explaination.

Now he is questioning his father (literally). Maybe soon we will see his character development in action. And i do believe that the recent events (elan in the role of his dead ninja friend) are not similar by chance or accident, but intention. Elan will make a different decision than Therkla, it just needs a little more time.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think people here are underestimating the effect of Elan's emotional needs. I've been fortunate enough not to have a similar experience, but when given a chance to spend time with the father he never knew, he's letting his Childhood Trauma of not having a father override the red flags. It's just now the flags are so red and insistent I think we're starting to reach the point where denial will crumble. For that's what Elan's "stupidity" is on this occasion: Denial. Just a little longer in the dream, please.

[Math_Mage]

Surprised that Elan lacks the dramatic savvy to note the Man in the Iron Mask parallel (though he probably will later). Amused that Porthos illuminated another potential Gladiator parallel.

[Johel]

I think you answered your question with your second statement :P

He is an evil man who wants law and order firmly under his heal. His wife just died, he wants a wife, he's already tried out this model and wants it. And nothing so unimportant as her feeling or her freedom or human rights will get in his way

I... hadn't concidered the "My toy is broken, I want a new one. And I want THIS one !!" argument.
That sounds valid and logical (albeit immoral but hey, that's Tarquin)

[Crod]

I... hadn't concidered the "My toy is broken, I want a new one. And I want THIS one !!" argument.
That sounds valid and logical (albeit immoral but hey, that's Tarquin)

No I think it's even worse. He takes pleasure in forcing his will on someone. The more reluctant, the better. This is a man who can't take no for an answer and goes all the distance in an attempt to dominate and break down his women.

I think "mysterious circumstances" happen to the women when they actually do break down and succumb to his will - then they are no longer interesting.

[RebelRogue]

No, it's not. Denial is not the same thing as stupidity. Elan understands that what was done was bad, but he's trying to rationalize it. That's a very common response.

Real people don't switch their opinions of their loved ones at the first sign of trouble. They need time and/or repeated transgressions to overcome their preconceived notions. Elan is acting entirely normally, and you're just so used to him being dumb that you're assuming it's because of his intelligence. It's not.
A thousand times this! Human beings are not as rational as some in here seem to believe they are.

[BridgeCity]

So all the respect I had for the ambassador for being determined enough to attack Tarquin single-handedly vanished when it turned out she cheated on her husband.

But I'm loving how casual Tarquin is in his evilness, love that it looks like he is flaunting it in front of Elan to see how far he can push it.

Looking forward to more Durkon and Malack.

[Sengoku]

Nice quick update, and very nice strip (especially the last panel :D ).

Kudos again for T., one of the best characters!

[Welf]

I know he's evil, but I just have to cheer for Tarquin. Go T! :smalltongue:

[TheBST]

So all the respect I had for the ambassador for being determined enough to attack Tarquin single-handedly vanished when it turned out she cheated on her husband.

She says in this strip that she rejected Tarquin twice and that she wasn't leaving his bedroom after a night of the fun stuff, he'd just summoned her to his room in the morning to make another pass at her. Tarquin doesn't contradict her.

Is it me or is torturing women until they marry you- assuming you make them consumate the marriage- tantamount to rape? So much for Charisma.

[BridgeCity]

She says in this strip that she rejected Tarquin twice and that she wasn't leaving his bedroom after a night of the fun stuff, he'd just summoned her to his room in the morning to make another pass at her. Tarquin doesn't contradict her . . .

She says she reminded him she was already married, and therefore won't marry him. Nothing about not sleeping with him. I know you can counter with "they also say nothing about actually sleeping with him either" but I feel that it is rather implied they did.

[Grim Reader]

Is it me or is torturing women until they marry you- assuming you make them consumate the marriage- tantamount to rape? So much for Charisma.

To be honest, it seems even worse. I mean, he is having a woman physically tortured untill she breaks down and marries him, so he can have "consensual" sex, after breaking her will to resist? It is an abuser getting his wife "pre-tenderized" so he doesn't have to do it himself.

It actually seems worse than a brutal rape by violence. And it appears to have a high fatality rate. And that is before we get into having her previous family killed.

[RMS Oceanic]

She says she reminded him she was already married, and therefore won't marry him. Nothing about not sleeping with him. I know you can counter with "they also say nothing about actually sleeping with him either" but I feel that it is rather implied they did.

Yes, it looked like that when she bumped into Elan this morning, but in the light of this information, I think it's safe to assume Tarquin asked for both and she wouldn't give him either.

[Grim Reader]

Although I do wonder how much of it is rooted in the divorce from Elans mother. If he utterly breaks them first, they'll never leave him may be the emotional drive. He wouldn't be the first spousal abuser with that fear egging him on.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Tarquin is horrible and Elan's starting to wake up (Look at his expression on the second-to-last panel), and I'd say more if I had the time.

[Azukar]

Up on the rooftops...

Is anyone getting the feeling this might be leading up to a dangling-from-a-ledge, "join me and we can rule together as father and son" reference?

[Detrinex]

Hm. This is a lot like Miko.

[rakkoon]

There are over 9000 threads about Tarquin already??

[Toper]

Yes, it looked like that when she bumped into Elan this morning, but in the light of this information, I think it's safe to assume Tarquin asked for both and she wouldn't give him either.
Yes, that's one of the best tricks of this strip -- it perfectly explains her extra-shocked expression here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html), which was otherwise a little over-the-top. There's no reason for her detail of "last night and again this morning when you summoned me" except to explain that they didn't sleep together.

[Mr. Snuggles]

Hm, Captain Chick is locked up in the tower? Darn, she won't be in the gladiatorial games then. A pity!

Heh, heh, look at the last frame. That must be Tarquin's fifth wife. She has the most magnificent set of perky round...eyes.

[Zordrath]

The captain seems to be a rather weak fighter. Her all-out strike barely scratched Tarquin, and Elan could parry her strikes with no trouble, without even having to use puns.

Tarquin confirms that he is indeed the villain many people thought, though I'd say he's even more of a bastard than assumed. Nonetheless, I'm happy to see a second villain besides Xykon with such style and nonchalant effectiveness :smallbiggrin: But I am disappointed in Elan - he lost a lot of hero cred by allowing his father to drag an innocent women to prison and torture her into obedience. I expected more from him, especially considering that he did recognize when V committend an Evil act in front of him.

[TheJayPhoenix]

Is it wrong of me that the more 'evil' Tarquin does, the more that I actually like him? :)

[rakkoon]

It's normal honey.
Or at least I feel the same

[Shale]

I think "mysterious circumstances" happen to the women when they actually do break down and succumb to his will - then they are no longer interesting.

I figured on a different kind of breakdown - how long can you stay married to someone whose idea of a proposal is murdering your current spouse and then torturing you until he hears "I do", before leaping out the window (or trying to push him out) looks like the better option?

[Lemur Bear]

Well, if Tarquin is something old and Elan is something new, does that mean that the Free City of Doom is something borrowed?

[kojar]

No, it's not. Denial is not the same thing as stupidity. Elan understands that what was done was bad, but he's trying to rationalize it. That's a very common response.

Real people don't switch their opinions of their loved ones at the first sign of trouble. They need time and/or repeated transgressions to overcome their preconceived notions. Elan is acting entirely normally, and you're just so used to him being dumb that you're assuming it's because of his intelligence. It's not.

It can also be both, Intelligence is your ability do analyze situations, right?
He understands his father did something bad but he doesn't understand how bad it is. he needs higher intelligence to understand all the situation and with his denial this is not enough proof for him (this may also relate to wisdom which is about seeing into someones true plans and such).

:elan: Stop, I`m sure this is just a misunderstanding. somehow.:elan:
Relates more to denial from how I see it.

:elan: a fool but we can still talk this out! :elan:
seems to have most likely be from him understanding this is stupid but STILL denies it.

my point is that While denial is mostly what keeps Elan from accepting his dad is evil but he will be closer to it if his Intelligence and wisdom were a bit higher. those two things he said do not support this Theory but neither do they harm it because I said like 20% of it is because of his stupidity.

I really hoped this is just denial but it makes sense to me :smallfrown:

EDIT: I`m thinking the next few strips might involve
Elan asking Haley and V for help to save Amun-zora from the tower while V asking "who?"

[hewhosaysfish]

Well there goes the delusions of those who were insisting Tarquin could still be Chaotic and not Evil! Not that there was really ever much doubt to begin with.


But he's obviously acting in the name of love! How could that be Evil!?


On a more serious note, Haley and V seem to have gotten away with freeing the slaves so far... might they try to spring the captain? If they find out about her plight, that is.

[Bedinsis]

Tarquin, you evil evil man...

I am more interested in the Captain now.

[Deme]

It can also be both, Intelligence is your ability do analyze situations, right?
He understands his father did something bad but he doesn't understand how bad it is. he needs higher intelligence to understand all the situation and with his denial this is not enough proof for him (this may also relate to wisdom which is about seeing into someones true plans and such).

:elan: Stop, I`m sure this is just a misunderstanding. somehow.:elan:
Relates more to denial from how I see it.

:elan: a fool but we can still talk this out! :elan:
seems to have most likely be from him understanding this is stupid but STILL denies it.

my point is that While denial is mostly what keeps Elan from accepting his dad is evil but he will be closer to it if his Intelligence and wisdom were a bit higher. those two things he said do not support this Theory but neither do they harm it because I said like 20% of it is because of his stupidity.

I really hoped this is just denial but it makes sense to me :smallfrown:

EDIT: I`m thinking the next few strips might involve
Elan asking Haley and V for help to save Amun-zora from the tower while V asking "who?"

He understands exactly what happened -- "Your soldiers (accidentally) killed her husband." "Why did you do that?" He knows that bad things have gone down, and that it looks like his father is behind them. What he's doing in that "accidentally" is trying to get what he isn't seeing -- Why? And when constructing his own answers, he'll pick (as he has with other people, I think) the ones that make them look the most good... Because that's how Elan sees them. It's an accident, or a misunderstanding, or the Empress made him do it, or they deserved it -- he's actually coming up with a lot of theories here to try and maintain the information he has and his need of his father in the same head. They're flimsy, but as long as they're not directly denied by someone important... Then Elan'll hold onto them as a way to make things make sense without anyone being a bad guy (except the Empress, who he doesn't care about).

Of course, we say "it's because he's evil!" but... we don't lose much from Tarquin being evil. Elan loses a lot, and some of it's the stuff very close to the core of his identity.

[Blaznak]

With "Something Blue" I believe the art of the pun has been raised to an all new level of "Groan".

(raised, grown, groan? Eh....... )

[LightsOnNo1Home]

She says she reminded him she was already married, and therefore won't marry him. Nothing about not sleeping with him. I know you can counter with "they also say nothing about actually sleeping with him either" but I feel that it is rather implied they did.

It's implied that way because that's the what Rich wanted us to think. But we know now that they did not spend the night together, and THAT implies that they did not sleep together. Feint, and misdirection.

[Roland Itiative]

Reading the discussion threads, I find it funny how people are reacting to all of this. At first, there were always someone pointing out this or that reason why Tarquin should not be Lawful Evil, and now that it's becoming clearer and clearer where he falls in the alignment chart, people are complaining about Elan not getting a clue...

If half of the people who frequent this forums were in doubt about Tarquin's alignment, why wouldn't Elan? He doesn't have as much insight on the actions of his father, and he has a motive to want his father to be Good. As was pointed out, he's just in denial... just like other people on the forums were. It's just that he will take a while longer to break free from it, with Tarquin being his father and all.

[Deme]

Reading the discussion threads, I find it funny how people are reacting to all of this. At first, there were always someone pointing out this or that reason why Tarquin should not be Lawful Evil, and now that it's becoming clearer and clearer where he falls in the alignment chart, people are complaining about Elan not getting a clue...

If half of the people who frequent this forums were in doubt about Tarquin's alignment, why wouldn't Elan? He doesn't have as much insight on the actions of his father, and he has a motive to want his father to be Good. As was pointed out, he's just in denial... just like other people on the forums were. It's just that he will take a while longer to break free from it, with Tarquin being his father and all.

I did notice the simmilarity... I'm glad someone pointed it out.

[JoeSkull]

Hmm... I liked Tarquin better yesterday.

[Blackcloak]

Wow, that was quick. 2 days!
I like Tarquin (although he is evil), but that was just COLD. It's kind of obvious that Tarquin is going to be killed...but not by Elan.
Elan probably expects to lose a hand. Tarquin did the Darth Vader line. And, as they both love theater...
Tarquin is going to die.
And The Empress of Blood is going to kill him.

[Blackcloak]

Wow, that was quick. 2 days!
I like Tarquin (although he is evil), but that was just COLD. It's kind of obvious that Tarquin is going to be killed...but not by Elan.
Elan probably expects to lose a hand. Tarquin did the Darth Vader line. And, as they both love theater...
Tarquin is going to die.
And The Empress of Blood is going to kill him.

Elan- Luke
EoB- Emperor
Malack- how does he figure into this?
Tarquin- Darth Vader
Dragoons- Storm Troopers

I'm probably wrong about the EoB killing the suddenly good Tarquin, but this story arc seems to be pointing in that direction...

[Sijo]

Ah, see? Now this feels like a better conclusion to the previous strip. That one felt to me like it was missing something. I guess it just ran too long and the Giant decided to split it in two.

And yeah, Tarkin isn't evil, he's EVIL! The one part I don't get is why he needs to get his spouse's approval; if all he wants is to rape her he could just do it. Unless of course, humbling her is part of the deal for him. *ugh*

And so we are back to the Elan who REALLY doesn't get things, even when they are shouted and explained to his face. Yes I know he doesn't want to believe his dad is evil, but come on, it isn't like the accusation just came up. Is this the same Elan who "began to grasp the basics of sarcasm" after dealing with the corrupt Samurai Lord? This is a very similar situation. I guess character growth just isn't part of OOST. :smallfrown:

So, will Elan be forced to kill his own father? I hope not, though I could see Tarkin thinking of it as a fitting end to his melodramatic existence.

[faustin]

Malack- Darth Darth Binks. Fits perfectly

[Scutilla]

Going back through #742, it seems to me that the Captain DID sleep with Tarquin- after offering his aid he states that "there are many ways to seal an alliance". In other words, "payment" for his help, which he probably wouldn't follow through on without receiving. From the Captain's perspective, saving the lives of everyone in her city is probably more important than retaining fidelity to her husband.

On another note, now I'm curious about that wound on Tarquin's chin. Will he leave it there as a Scar of Evil, or grow out his facial hair to cover it? Something like... a goatee? (That would certainly be some damning evidence in Elan's genre-savvy mind.)

[Blackcloak]

Malack- Darth Darth Binks. Fits perfectly
Perfect! I didn't think of that.

[Mordokai]

Tarquin just went straight from being interesting to being a guy who should be killed painfully soon. He's up there with Xykon on being utterly rotten and disgusting.

Glad to see I'm not the only one wishing for quick and painful death of Tarquin. It's probably not going to happen anytime soon, but I do so hope it gets to him eventually. And when that happens, I will be the one smiling.

[zyborg]

I disagree. He knew what his father has done was bad, but he tried to make excuses. 'Told to do it', 'accident', etc. He wants to rationalize what his father has done, so he doesn't seem as evil to him. Because this would be the second family member he found that he really liked but betrayed him by being evil.

[Blackcloak]

Ah, see? Now this feels like a better conclusion to the previous strip. That one felt to me like it was missing something. I guess it just ran too long and the Giant decided to split it in two.

And yeah, Tarkin isn't evil, he's EVIL! The one part I don't get is why he needs to get his spouse's approval; if all he wants is to rape her he could just do it. Unless of course, humbling her is part of the deal for him. *ugh*

And so we are back to the Elan who REALLY doesn't get things, even when they are shouted and explained to his face. Yes I know he doesn't want to believe his dad is evil, but come on, it isn't like the accusation just came up. Is this the same Elan who "began to grasp the basics of sarcasm" after dealing with the corrupt Samurai Lord? This is a very similar situation. I guess character growth just isn't part of OOST. :smallfrown:

So, will Elan be forced to kill his own father? I hope not, though I could see Tarkin thinking of it as a fitting end to his melodramatic existence.
No. The Empress will likely kill him, although I don't know why yet. I mean, all the Star Wars references...
So, the Empress kills Tarquin, and either Elan kills her or Tarquin killed her, but died in the process. All I know is, Tarquin will not be killed by Elan.

Probably not.

[Blackcloak]

I disagree. He knew what his father has done was bad, but he tried to make excuses. 'Told to do it', 'accident', etc. He wants to rationalize what his father has done, so he doesn't seem as evil to him. Because this would be the second family member he found that he really liked but betrayed him by being evil.

I must agree, but I must add something.

Haley.

If she finds out about all the evil stuff Tarquin did- which she will, as soon as she goes up those steps- then she will probably just kill Tarquin instantly. Elan will be mad at her, and then we will have some awkward issues.
Haley already mistrusted Tarquin, and, in her opinion, this will prove it. Tarquin mad a HUGE tactical error letting Elan know everything- maybe it's part of his plan, but Elan will tell Haley, and Haley will kill Tarquin.

Too bad I like Tarquin.

[RMS Oceanic]

I must agree, but I must add something.

Haley.

If she finds out about all the evil stuff Tarquin did- which she will, as soon as she goes up those steps- then she will probably just kill Tarquin instantly. Elan will be mad at her, and then we will have some awkward issues.
Haley already mistrusted Tarquin, and, in her opinion, this will prove it. Tarquin mad a HUGE tactical error letting Elan know everything- maybe it's part of his plan, but Elan will tell Haley, and Haley will kill Tarquin.

Too bad I like Tarquin.

I disagree with this. If it wasn't for Tarquin's hinting that he knew Girard she might, but I daresay she's pragmatic enough to attempt to wrangle what he knows out of him before trying to kill him.

[Johel]

Is it wrong of me that the more 'evil' Tarquin does, the more that I actually like him? :)

It is very wrong but then that's what make great villains great :
you despise them but are somehow fascinated at the same time.

[Blackcloak]

Also looking forward to the next comic. I hope they get to the gladiatorial fights- I want to see Belkar get killed by Roy.

Oh, yeah- I think Belkar will be killed by Roy. Just so you know, if you didn't figure it out.

[Blackcloak]

It is very wrong but then that's what make great villains great :
you despise them but are somehow fascinated at the same time.
Well, yes, but Tarquin is also a reasonably likable character...when he's not being evil. And yes, when he is being evil, it makes him a great villain.

Tarquin, in personality, is a lot like Elan, but he's evil. He likes theater, he's funny, and he's pleasant when he's not killing or raping.

Oh, and I figured out Tarquin's plan.

Draketooth and co. are in the Free City of Doom. Tarquin sent those Dragoons to help the Empire of Tears take over the city, and then the Dragoons went off and captured/ killed Draketooth and co. Or tried to, at least. Tarquin is attempting to thwart the Order, plus I think he and Draketooth might be enemies. Do you agree?

[fibonacciseries]

Wow.

Wow.

I swear, Xykon's about to lose his 'evil in style' award because THAT was sick!

I'm not sure if I want Tarquin to eventually join up with Xykon, because they would work together so well (and funnily), or not, because that would just be terrifying (as in adding that level of tactical genius to the caster-oriented Team Evil would make them nigh-unstoppable).

I wonder how long until Nale shows up... might that be the surprise on the roof?
Because if so, Tarquin's Magnificent Bastard status would leave the realm of what's actually possible, and ascend into godhood.

[Blackcloak]

I'm not sure if I want Tarquin to eventually join up with Xykon, because they would work together so well (and funnily), or not, because that would just be terrifying (as in adding that level of tactical genius to the caster-oriented Team Evil would make them nigh-unstoppable).

I wonder how long until Nale shows up... might that be the surprise on the roof?
Because if so, Tarquin's Magnificent Bastard status would leave the realm of what's actually possible, and ascend into godhood.
Oh. My. Gosh. I COMPLETELY forgot about Nale!

No. He is NOT the surprise. Remember, Nale said: "Because no one denies me, Elan. Not father, not you, not anyone." in comic number 61, "Brother Against Brother". So both Tarquin and Nale said that they didn't like each other. Tarquin wouldn't have arranged a meeting on the roof with Nale.

Oh, and nice Xykon team up- could happen.

Nale, though... he is going to swoop in at the last minute, mess up Tarquin's plans, and probably try to kill Tarquin. Tarquin, meanwhile, will be attacked by the EoB because of something- maybe Malack will say he's attempting a hostile takeover or something. Tarquin will be killed by the EoB- or at least by Malack- and Nale will be assaulted by an anguished Elan, who is probably screaming some thing like "I'll kill you!'' Nale will be surprised by the level of competence Elan has- Elan has gotten to be a much better swordsman- and he'll retreat. Whoever struck Tarquin's death blow will be attacked by Elan, and whoever is being assaulted will escape.

Anyone agree? This is just a guess, mind you!

[Neopolis]

Is this the same Elan who "began to grasp the basics of sarcasm" after dealing with the corrupt Samurai Lord? This is a very similar situation. I guess character growth just isn't part of OOST. :smallfrown:
Okay, so there were several things in this post I could've commented upon, but really? Saying Order of the Stick doesn't have any character growth just because Elan is having trouble believing that his father, the one he hasn't seen in years is evil? If I heard my own father saying things like that, I wouldn't act much differently from Elan. I wouldn't suddenly stab my father, I'd probably go like "who made you do this?" or "who made you say this?".

Also, kudo's on making Tarquin so likable... yet so damned hatable.

[Blackcloak]

I disagree with this. If it wasn't for Tarquin's hinting that he knew Girard she might, but I daresay she's pragmatic enough to attempt to wrangle what he knows out of him before trying to kill him.

Point taken, you are right.

[kojar]

He understands exactly what happened -- "Your soldiers (accidentally) killed her husband." "Why did you do that?" He knows that bad things have gone down, and that it looks like his father is behind them. What he's doing in that "accidentally" is trying to get what he isn't seeing -- Why? And when constructing his own answers, he'll pick (as he has with other people, I think) the ones that make them look the most good... Because that's how Elan sees them. It's an accident, or a misunderstanding, or the Empress made him do it, or they deserved it -- he's actually coming up with a lot of theories here to try and maintain the information he has and his need of his father in the same head. They're flimsy, but as long as they're not directly denied by someone important... Then Elan'll hold onto them as a way to make things make sense without anyone being a bad guy (except the Empress, who he doesn't care about).

Of course, we say "it's because he's evil!" but... we don't lose much from Tarquin being evil. Elan loses a lot, and some of it's the stuff very close to the core of his identity.

Well he does not have enough knowledge on the situation to make conclusions for why his father did this so I guess I was too soon to post this. but then again he may never ask about this just so he would not find something that makes his father`s evil undeniable.
he just makes theories and hopes they are true and convinces himself there is no need for proof. that is what you meant, right?
This makes sense too, but if only Elan would be a big boy just for a few minutes and dare to investigate I will be very happy about that :smallsmile:

[tomandtish]

Awesome comic!


So all the respect I had for the ambassador for being determined enough to attack Tarquin single-handedly vanished when it turned out she cheated on her husband.

But I'm loving how casual Tarquin is in his evilness, love that it looks like he is flaunting it in front of Elan to see how far he can push it.

Looking forward to more Durkon and Malack.

In fairness, given that she was trying to persuade him to bring EOB forces in on her side of the war, this may have been less cheating on her husband for the sake of cheatng and more using any means neccessary to get the troops. Making Tarquin's betrayal even worse in her eyes.

[Blackcloak]

This makes sense too, but if only Elan would be a big boy just for a few minutes and dare to investigate I will be very happy about that :smallsmile:

Are we both talking about the same Elan here? The chances of that are the same that Roy will grow wings and eat his sword. Elan doesn't DO big boy. He does naive. Not big boy, no way.

I wish he would, though.

[Blackcloak]

Haley would kill Tarquin for the simple reason that he's hurting Elan, even if Elan doesn't know it yet. Tarquin is slowly but surely tearing Elan apart, just as Nale did. Plus, Haley can see that Tarquin is planning something, and she will DEFINITELY try to thwart it, and if it came to killing him, she'd do it.


Hey, where did the post go? I was saying why Haley would kill Tarquin!

[DreadArchon]

OK, I'll concede that Tarquin is probably not Neutral Good. Maybe True Neutral? :smalltongue:

And he very well might be killed by Elan! That would be a good way to ensure that he comes back at dramatic moments in the future!

[mucat]

Hey, where did the post go? I was saying why Haley would kill Tarquin!

Ah, sorry. I deleted my post because it looked like RMS Oceanic had ninja'd me and made the same point, and you had already acknowledged it.

That said, I agree that Haley might eventually want to kill Tarquin...just not right now. Nothing she learns here, even if she's evesdropping on the whole scene, gives her a reason to change her plan.

[The MunchKING]

Wow... Tarquin IS a grade A *******...

[kojar]

Are we both talking about the same Elan here? The chances of that are the same that Roy will grow wings and eat his sword. Elan doesn't DO big boy. He does naive. Not big boy, no way.

I wish he would, though.

That is what I said, that I wished it would happen not that I am expecting it.

[Conuly]

Is it me or is torturing women until they marry you- assuming you make them consumate the marriage- tantamount to rape? So much for Charisma.

Take away the "tantamount to" and you've got it. And remember, kiddies - just because you're married doesn't mean it magically stops being rape if you don't have freely-given consent!

As for why he's obsessed with marrying her, maybe it's a Lawful thing? He's evil, so he's going to go ahead whether she wants it or not, but he's Lawful so he wants the veneer of respectability that's had by swapping rings.

[2-HeadedGiraffe]

In the past two strips, Elan has taken two significant steps towards breaking through his denial. In the previous one, he's confronted with his father's misdeeds, and he ends up looking disappointed or some such at the end. In this one, he admits that his father has done some pretty rotten things, though he's still trying to give him the benefit of a doubt and rationalize his motives. At this rate, it'll only be another few strips before he's forced to admit Tarquin is evil and figure out what he plans to do about it.

From a dramatic standpoint, I would imagine Elan kills Tarquin. If Tarquin has to be defeated, he'd probably appreciate Elan being the one to do it. Also, since he asked Elan previously if he'd defeated any villains, having Elan take him out would allow him to help his son come of age as a hero. Just a thought.

I also like the idea of Roy killing Belkar in the arena, but I thought Roy was supposed to fight the half-dragon guy (Enor or something like that, I think his name is). I could be wrong, or a Roy/Belkar fight could be another event or some other twist. I kind of hope it happens.

[allenw]

Take away the "tantamount to" and you've got it. And remember, kiddies - just because you're married doesn't mean it magically stops being rape if you don't have freely-given consent!

As for why he's obsessed with marrying her, maybe it's a Lawful thing? He's evil, so he's going to go ahead whether she wants it or not, but he's Lawful so he wants the veneer of respectability that's had by swapping rings.

And for that matter, it's probably against his ethics to commit adultery. Which is no longer an obstacle, after this afternoon. :smallamused:

It *could* even be against his ethics to have sex outside of marriage, which is why he really, really wants to get married (and frequently). Although the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) would seem to argue against that; maybe he figures engaged is close enough. :smallwink:

Basically, though, he wants to forcibly marry, not rape, women for the same reasons Ming the Merciless wanted to forcibly marry, not rape, Dale Arden:
1: It's his idiom;
2: It's more appropriate for his genre and audience.

[CelestialMagpie]

I think the tricky thing is whether you want the comic to be more like a story, or more like the game.

In D&D, you do a simple "detect alignment" and see what there is to see. I've had parties that wouldn't even parlay with people whose alignments didn't mesh with their own. But if you want it to be a story, then you have to accept the flaws that go along with trusting people, particularly family. Elan isn't stupid (at least, not like he used to be) - he's just holding out for an explanation. Arguably, he could have figured out Tarquin's alignment at any point in time - learning his father's backstory, the evil dinner, the statues...but he's not because it's his dad.

The best example of this previously would be that the paladins did not attack V when s/he shifted alignment for the less than stellar. They suspected, and maybe they even knew (Elan sure did!) that V was evil, but they didn't say "Oh well, your alignment shifted and now we have to kill you!"

I like the theory that somehow Nale will just appear and mess everything up. OH! Wait...what if that's what Tarquin wanted to show Elan? Maybe he's got Nale up there, and it's like a big, strange family reunion :smalltongue:



Oh, and Malack = Grand Moff Tarkin

[Orzel]

I can't wait to see if Elan finally openly admits his dad is straight evil.

Ice foot. Gotta use that one.

[Ellen]

Oookaaay . . . .

It's not just that Elan's dad is evil (I have this weird urge to call him "Mr. T"), but there were other ways to get what he wanted.

First, tell a girl you'll kill her beloved husband if she doesn't divorce him and marry you and you'll have a MUCH better success rate than if you murder her husband and send her off to be tortured UNTIL she marries you.

Second, if she needs military help to save her people (including her husband) and if her enemy is (potentially) your enemy, too, then offering military help if she divorces her husband and marries you gets you what you wanted and gets you certain military advantages as well.

Those are both EVIL options, they just aren't quite as EVIL as betraying a city and murdering hundreds of its inhabitants just to make sure one guy is dead so that his widow is available, whether or not she wants to be.

Not to mention, this is one of those cases where torturing someone till she agrees rather than blackmailing her till she agrees is definitely the more EVIL option (depending what you're threatening someone with in a story, that one can vary).

His one good point is that he wants to look good to his son, implying he cares a bit about Elan.

Of course, he also seems to want to look good to the public, enough that he he's going to torture a woman into saying he didn't do something evil when everyone knows he did.

That implies looking good - including looking good to Elan - is just ego, not caring about anyone.

I mean, he apparently decided to attack a city and torture a woman to say she wanted to marry him rather than blackmail her in a scenario where neither of them could pretend she was choosing him because she wanted to.

So, there's his one, potentially good spot down the drain, flushed, and far out to sea (where a squid ate it and got the runs).

I really don't blame Elan's mother for destroying the letter Mr. T sent "explaining" things even if there isn't more to the story than that.

[Kislath]

I think that Tarquin has a much more pragmatic reason for wanting to marry her. Marriages often have a side effect involving property, title, power, etc.... I'll bet that he knows something about our "mere" captain that WE don't. He's a "big picture" kind of guy.

[Sylthia]

Something Old: Tarquin
Something New: The Strip
Something Borrowed: Tarquin's new wife from her former husband
Something Blue: Feet

[Particle_Man]

So all the respect I had for the ambassador for being determined enough to attack Tarquin single-handedly vanished when it turned out she cheated on her husband.

Even if she had cheated on her husband, I can sorta see it if she felt this was the way to save her city, and, as a soldier defending that city, her husband's life.

[pendell]

Even if she had cheated on her husband, I can sorta see it if she felt this was the way to save her city, and, as a soldier defending that city, her husband's life.

Quite right, as Granny Weatherwax said to Magrat in "Carpe Jugulum" -- "If we were men, we'd talk about laying down our lives for our country. Since we're women, we can talk about laying down for our country."

There are people in this world who will do ANYTHING to save their friends and relatives from their enemies. It's not a big step to sleeping with an enemy general if you're already willing to kill people.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Particle_Man]

The best example of this previously would be that the paladins did not attack V when s/he shifted alignment for the less than stellar. They suspected, and maybe they even knew (Elan sure did!) that V was evil, but they didn't say "Oh well, your alignment shifted and now we have to kill you!"

Well, one paladin would have, but she was already dead. :)

[hamishspence]

There are people in this world who will do ANYTHING to save their friends and relatives from their enemies. It's not a big step to sleeping with an enemy general if you're already willing to kill people.

True- but when it comes to "saving friends and relatives from enemies"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticking_time_bomb_scenario

some people are willing to go a bit further than others- saying things like "Torturing the innocent relatives of your enemies can be a duty."

So- how far does someone have to go before "it's an evil act in a D&D setting" comes into play?

[blackjack217]

Well, one paladin would have, but she was already dead. :)

she had a restraining order, remember?

[sihnfahl]

I think that Tarquin has a much more pragmatic reason for wanting to marry her. Marriages often have a side effect involving property, title, power, etc.... I'll bet that he knows something about our "mere" captain that WE don't. He's a "big picture" kind of guy.
Except everything she owned back in the City is now someone elses' property.

[Stegyre]

Wait. Maybe this has already been raised in other threads, but no mention yet regarding this strip?

1. The captain emphasizes her disbelief in the betrayal, because (as she understands it), "the Weepies are your enemies, too."

2. That darn Gourntonk, liason from Reptilia, keeps pressing to speak with the EoB, because he has "sensitive information for her ear-holes only" (and, impliedly, not for the ears of the warm-blooded mammalian general who appears nominally her second-in-command and is obviously one of the two PBtT (Powers-Behind-the-Throne)). Likely, because that information implicates said mammal. I note from the map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) that Reptilia is a rather small nation, bordering both the Bloodies and the Weepies, so it's in a position to be concerned if a potential adversary (the Weepies) is undermining a potential ally (the Bloodies).

3. The General himself has already given us his "ominous foreshadowing for later," of how "the destiny of this nation lies in [Elan's] hands!"

We're just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and it's coming . . . it's coming . . . and . . . the Giant loves to frustrate our expectations! :smallbiggrin:

(That's not a complaint. Building expectations and then frustrating them is an acknowledged art, in literature and music. We keep reading, because the final resolution is all the sweeter for it.)

When the shoe does drop, I'm expecting Elan will be "all up in Tarquin's business" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html) about it, because that's Elan, and he lacks any subtlety or discretion about it. (That's also Elan.)

I'm also wondering whether Tarquin's long-time partner Malack is any part of it. I think not. Malack (or the Giant) has done a good job of preserving the ambiguity, whether he is "evil" or "neutral," but his friendship and interest in Durkon seems genuine, and unlike Tarquin (who at least has held a throne before, and so is known to possess such ambitions), Malack seems to be quite content as a PBtT. It is doubtful that he could better his present position, so any change is likely to be for the worse.

I'm also loving the rapid updates, yet another way to "frustrate" our expectations in a way we all heartily approve. :smallsmile:

[Weiser_Cain]

Ok, enough of how he's forced all these women to marry him.

[the_tick_rules]

Tarquin is a real lady killer, in every sense of the word. come on Elan it's not that hard, figure this all out.

[Blackcloak]

I also like the idea of Roy killing Belkar in the arena, but I thought Roy was supposed to fight the half-dragon guy (Enor or something like that, I think his name is). I could be wrong, or a Roy/Belkar fight could be another event or some other twist. I kind of hope it happens.
No. I heard the Roy-Belkar thing from somebody else. I mean, Belkar is beating up, stealing, and generally being Evil. Roy? Is going to get mad at Belkar in the arena, and skewer him on the sword, wooden or no. Actually, are they wooden when they actually fight? Whatever.

[Blackcloak]

Oh, and Malack = Grand Moff Tarkin
Cool, cool...but Grand Moff Tarkin (Hey! Just like OOTS's Tarquin!) or Darth Darth Binks? Actually, I'm going to have to go with Grand Moff Tarkin, since Darth Darth Binks has a stupid voice.

[Sengoku]

I wonder when ppl will stop giving moral judgements -belonging to Real Life- about fictional characters -belonging to a webcomic-.

You can do that sort of thing in the apposite threads opened upon that particular character.

Or you can just try to enjoy the webcomic (and make others enjoy more a forum without petty discussions).

Or you can just talk through Skype or Facebook.

Or you can not talk at all.

We saw every kind of moral action in D&D and in OotS, from the most noble to the most despicable, it's 100% part of the setting, there is enough material for months of debate just speaking of Redcloak, or V, or Haley...can you please cut it off at the 3rd-4th page?!

[Blackcloak]

Well, one paladin would have, but she was already dead. :)

And we all know who that paladin is... the #1 most Fascist paladin lackey! Now deceased, as you said.

[zyborg]

With how evil he is being in front of Elan, I'm wondering if the 'T-ster' WANTS Elan to hate him all of a sudden. I don't know why that would be, but... he seemed awfully smooth before now.

[Stegyre]

And again I wonder what the heck Haley sees in that complete moron....

1. His innate goodness: when Elan tells the EoB that he would have opposed her from the start and been all "up in her business," he's being extremely naive, but also very, very honest. For all the "chaotic" in his manner and alignment description, he's good to the very core and easily gives Roy a run for the money on that alignment axis.

2. 18 Charisma.

3. Max Ranks in Perform(fade-to-black (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html))

[Murdim]

With how evil he is being in front of Elan, I'm wondering if the 'T-ster' WANTS Elan to hate him all of a sudden. I don't know why that would be, but... he seemed awfully smooth before now.
If it wasn't this, or something on the same line, I would honestly be disappointed.

[hamishspence]

I wonder when ppl will stop giving moral judgements -belonging to Real Life- about fictional characters -belonging to a webcomic-.

You can do that sort of thing in the apposite threads opened upon that particular character.

Or you can just try to enjoy the webcomic (and make others enjoy more a forum without petty discussions).

This is a D&D-centric comic- with alignments like Good and Evil, and rules like "a paladin will fall for an evil act".

So, an element of moral judgement is likely to be pretty common.

Indeed, the comic itself brings up judgements about the morality of various actions- Roy's judgement in Celestia being a notable example.

[FoE]

I have a theory on Tarquin's "wives" ...

I'm wondering whether or not he sacrifices them.

There are fiends and gods in the D&D setting who require sacrifices of their human allies. I can imagine the souls of loved ones — spouses, children, friends — are particularly scrumptous feasts for these beings. We know that Nale consorts with fiends, so why couldn't Tarquin?

Hell, maybe he's the one who introduced Sabine to Nale!

[hamishspence]

On souls- this makes me remember V's action with the three fiends, and compare it to Amun-Zora.

V was willing to rent something (soul, to the fiends) for a short period, in order to get something (family saved).

Amun-Zora was willing to rent something (body, to Tarquin) for a short period, in order to get something (city saved).

(that is, assuming the "she slept with him but won't marry him" theory is correct).

[Gift Jeraff]

Hell, maybe he's the one who introduced Sabine to Nale!
Maybe Sabine was Tarquin's fifth wife. What better way to piss off Haley than to know that she reminds him of one of her archnemeses? :smallcool:

[Papa_Bitterleaf]

I get a very (Biblical) King David vibe from Tarquin's most recent wife-plot. And I agree with others who say that, while frustrating, Elan's unwillingness to believe that his father is wholly evil is understandable, butthat his faith in his father is eroding (albeit less quickly than some would like).

Great strip, in short.

[Doug Lampert]

The captain seems to be a rather weak fighter. Her all-out strike barely scratched Tarquin, and Elan could parry her strikes with no trouble, without even having to use puns.

How does this make her weak? Elan is a level 14 or so character, the puns just let him do extra damage but don't help at all that we know of on defense.

At level 14 he gets no XP for something like 99.9% of all professional soldiers, they're TOO WEAK to significantly inconvienence him even in groups of a dozen or so without high level support.

Level 14 PC is supposed to be worth about 12 level 8 warriors in a fight (it's actually better than that), a level 8 warrior is worth about 12 level 1 warriors in a fight, and most soldiers or monsters are level 1 warriors.

The Captain could be so high level that she wouldn't even get XP from a common soldier (level 10 or so), and Elan would STILL have her totally and completely outclassed.

Elan is probably level 14, now let's look at a level 13 rogue with no flank and no sneak attack like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html) or an isolated and surrounded horrible build halfling ranger for this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html).

[Cerlis]

1. His innate goodness: when Elan tells the EoB that he would have opposed her from the start and been all "up in her business," he's being extremely naive, but also very, very honest. For all the "chaotic" in his manner and alignment description, he's good to the very core and easily gives Roy a run for the money on that alignment axis.

2. 18 Charisma.

3. Max Ranks in Perform(fade-to-black (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html))

I respect ya but your point 1 is not strong enough :P Elan is good, elan is the Most "good" character you got in the strip. Furthermore everyone in Haley's life has left her due to negligence or seeing who she "really" is, judging her and abandoning her. Elan knows who she is (she even explained how she murdered her rival in cold blood) and Elan was still ok with it even before she told him how evil she was (Headbutting and old woman into submission). He has faith in her and believes in her.

---------------
Further...though its POSSIBLE that She got dressed and tarquinn didnt, I think its more likely that he summoned her to for some Private Negotiations and he meant "private negotiations" and she promptly left. Kinda like how Capt. Zap Branigan was waiting for Leela in his robes (xept the Captian didnt put out)

Its not like he said " There are other ways to seal new alliances" and she was all "ooh...oh dear *blush*"

*edit* After all he said he already sent the troops, which she thought was to help. So she had no reason to sleep with him unless he said something like "perhaps i might decide to send more", which he didnt

[Marnath]

I don't know why everyone keeps talking about Amun-Zora sleeping with Tarquin to save her city, as A) he already sent the troops and B) panels 3 and 4 serve pretty much no purpose if not to highlight she didn't sleep with him. If she did, why would she have left and needed to be summoned in the morning?

[hamishspence]

I don't know why everyone keeps talking about Amun-Zora sleeping with Tarquin to save her city, as A) he already sent the troops and B) panels 3 and 4 serve pretty much no purpose if not to highlight she didn't sleep with him. If she did, why would she have left and needed to be summoned in the morning?

I think it was here that somebody suggested it:


I love how Tarquin is purposfully obvious to the feelings of WhatHerName.
This is really the mark of a dominating, ruthless person who take his desires as granted, whatever the opinions of others.

Also, why this obessession about getting married to her ?

He has already slept with her so it's not like he has any reserve about bedding a woman that isn't his wife.
And we know for a fact that he tends to have his women killed once they get pregnant so it's not even about avoiding illegitimate children.

Not sure what the reason was.

[Marnath]

I think it was here that somebody suggested it:



Not sure what the reason was.

Well Johel, not only does the evidence point more to her not sleeping with him, we have NO evidence yet that he actually kills them, or that any of them have been pregnant. He says he takes steps to prevent more children, but thats not a slam dunk. Maybe they kill themselves to escape him, ro his rivals kill them.

[Quorothorn]

Reading the discussion threads, I find it funny how people are reacting to all of this. At first, there were always someone pointing out this or that reason why Tarquin should not be Lawful Evil, and now that it's becoming clearer and clearer where he falls in the alignment chart, people are complaining about Elan not getting a clue...

If half of the people who frequent this forums were in doubt about Tarquin's alignment, why wouldn't Elan? He doesn't have as much insight on the actions of his father, and he has a motive to want his father to be Good. As was pointed out, he's just in denial... just like other people on the forums were. It's just that he will take a while longer to break free from it, with Tarquin being his father and all.

This. Until the last couple of strips, I was unsure of exactly how evil Tarquin might be. And the thing that probably finished sealing my opinion of Tarquin was the last panel of this strip--which Elan doesn't see.

[Dr.Epic]

So we know that Tarquin has the power to remove a death sentence. Can Elan ask his dad to do the same thing for Roy? He could be subtle about it. He would have to ask directly if he can free Roy. He could make it sound hypothetical.

[Stegyre]

I respect ya but your point 1 is not strong enough :P Elan is good, elan is the Most "good" character you got in the strip.
I accept and endorse your additional emphasis.

WRT Haley's bad acts and her relationship with Elan: Elan sees the good in everybody. To a fault, sometimes. It's a factor here with Tarquin: Elan will give his father every opportunity to justify or excuse his evil actions. Elan and Cale (http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/1) have so much in common.

[Marnath]

I accept and endorse your additional emphasis.

WRT Haley's bad acts and her relationship with Elan: Elan sees the good in everybody. To a fault, sometimes. It's a factor here with Tarquin: Elan will give his father every opportunity to justify or excuse his evil actions. Elan and Cale (http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/1) have so much in common.

Except that Cale grew out of that. Pretty quickly.
shortly after he impaled the child to save Kethenecia.

[factotum]

At first, there were always someone pointing out this or that reason why Tarquin should not be Lawful Evil, and now that it's becoming clearer and clearer where he falls in the alignment chart, people are complaining about Elan not getting a clue...


Er, this being a problem would assume the two groups of people you mention above are the same. I have never said Tarquin is anything other than Evil, and in fact I was one of those arguing on his very first appearance that he was Evil for shoving Haley out of a window!

[TheBlackShadow]

Ahh, love the evulz. Guess this is the final nail in the coffin in the "Tarquin isn't evil" argument.

Really Tarquin, forcing unwilling young women to marry you? According to EasyDamus, I was on the Lawful Evil side of the line for a long time too, but thats not something I would ever have considered. Ah well, to each to their own, I suppose - even people with the same alignment can have different values and opinions. Although I would have liked to have heard his full reasoning for betraying the FCD. I'm currently studying Modern History and Politics, so I'm very curious to know.

Also love Elan's "A fool, but we can still sort this out" line in panel seven, struck me somehow as simultaneously funny, heartwarming, and saddening. I'd like to hear his reasoning for continuing to side with his father too.

[megabyter5]

Except that Cale grew out of that. Pretty quickly.
shortly after he impaled the child to save Kethenecia.

In which case, perhaps Tarquin should watch a Saw movie or two. You know, for father-son bonding ideas.

[Callista]

Is there a Tarquin fan club yet? There needs to be. This is one cool villain.

[Porthos]

As for why he's obsessed with marrying her, maybe it's a Lawful thing? He's evil, so he's going to go ahead whether she wants it or not, but he's Lawful so he wants the veneer of respectability that's had by swapping rings.

This is it exactly, as far as I am concerned. He gets his kicks out of crushing the will out of people. And he gets to be a "respectable member of society" by 'lawfully' marrying the woman he wants to sleep with (never mind the side benefits such as getting [most of?] the property and possessions that the woman in question might have when she dies).

Laws and customs must be followed, after all.

Even if one has to brutally subvert them and twist them out of all recognition.

Speaking of "laws and customs", I think this is also the reason he never defended himself against Amun-Zora (and in fact goaded her as much as possible). He himself said that attacking a general is a death sentence in this country (though given the what the "lenient" sentences in the Kingdom of Blood are (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0734.html), that might not be saying much :smallwink:). Regardless, Tarquin set up a situation where he could have a legal pretext to incarcerating Amun-Zora, and thus put her in a position where he could break her will at his leisure.

Nasty stuff.

And count me in the line for people who are convinced that Amun-Zora never slept with Tarquin. Otherwise the "summon to your bedchamber in the morning" line makes no sense.

===

One thing I do like about the ongoing characterization of Tarquin, is that Rich is making one of the best Lawful Evil characters he's ever created. Nale has been kinda pathetic and needy at times. And Redcloak has the whole Rebel With a Cause thing going on.

But Tarquin? Tarquin is Straight Outta Baator. He is the epitome of The Charming Devil. Seems a reasonable enough person to deal with, if ruthless. But when someone tells him, "No" or when someone blocks his plans, watch out.

I look forward to seeing where Rich continues to take this character.

[Sengoku]

Really Tarquin, forcing unwilling young women to marry you? According to EasyDamus, I was on the Lawful Evil side of the line for a long time too, but thats not something I would ever have considered. Ah well, to each to their own, I suppose - even people with the same alignment can have different values and opinions.

We'll talk about that again when you are the general of a LE kingdom, there are a lot of things you might have not 'considered' but you might end doing, with all due respect of course ;).


One thing I do like about the ongoing characterization of Tarquin, is that Rich is making one of the best Lawful Evil characters he's ever created. Nale has been kinda pathetic and needy at times. And Redcloak has the whole Rebel With a Cause thing going on.

I'm with you with the fact Tarquin's characterization is masterwork, though I found the other two above to be well done nonetheless, they might be less original but they have the mojo.

It's like in the movies...evil guys are those most loved and remembered, good guys are boring :)

[Conuly]

I wonder when ppl will stop giving moral judgements -belonging to Real Life- about fictional characters -belonging to a webcomic-.

Well, it wouldn't be a very interesting work of fiction if we couldn't use it to talk about greater issues in the real world.


Or you can just try to enjoy the webcomic (and make others enjoy more a forum without petty discussions).

Does it occur to you that some of us enjoy these conversations? That for many of us, debating the morality of certain characters is a fun way to do things?

You suggest that we can "just not talk about it at all". I suggest that you can skip those posts talking about aspects of the comic you're not interested in, and only read those that do interest you. Just because YOU do not enjoy the comic in the way WE do does not mean that you are right and we are wrong.

[cho_j]

This is it exactly. Elan [snip] ...is ignoring all of the evidence that is staring him in the face. Or at least he is trying to.

But as things become more and more obvious, the inevitable break will loom large.

I figure that it's all going to lead up to when Elan sees Roy fighting for his life in the Arena. Roy in many respects was a substitue father figure for Elan. If he sees his real life father keeping his substitute father in a fight to the death...

... Well, that will cause problems. :smallamused:

[snip]

It's quite a good amount of character devlopment, actually.

Yes, yes, yes! I agree with this one hundred percent. I think it's important to remember that Elan, fool though he is and will openly admit (which made me lol), is also coming to grips with something EXTREMELY psychologically difficult for any of us: seeing a parent as a person, and a person nothing like us at that (plus, in this case, evil). Especially because Elan didn't get to know his father gradually as he grew up, he was free to make him a perfect dad in his own mind, and probably saw him ONLY as a dad, like all of us do as children.

It's only as we become adults that we start to understand our parents as PEOPLE rather than just the roles they played for us, and Elan is getting the most brutal version of that lesson possible. No wonder he's clinging to denial! Finding out the father you had been building up in your head since childhood is not just evil but Evil with a capital E? That must hurt like crazy to try to take in! And Elan isn't even being eased into the solid proof here— he walked into the middle of Tarquin's darkest scheme we've seen so far.

That's why I think Porthos' theory is such a good one. Roy hasn't been a perfect person, but he's been a much better father to Elan than Tarquin has, with the added bonus of being, y'know, Good. Hard though it may be, I think what will snap Elan out of denial will be seeing the father figure he has to harbor far less painful delusions about being hurt. 'Course, we should keep in mind that Elan thinks of Roy as someone who actively enjoys his company... but I figure Elan must have to think of most people like that or get very lonely. ...Elan may secretly be the most depressing character.

[B. Dandelion]

That was a bit much for me, the last panel is just too stomach-turning in its implications for it to be funny even in a black way. Tarquin's a completely straight-faced rapist. Suddenly I see Nale and Sabine's relationship in a totally different light. It used to be, the genuine affection there was one of his sole redeeming values. Now it's like, it's amazing he turned out even that well.

[CoffeeIncluded]

You know what the goatee-like cut on his chin is symbolizing?

Elan's starting to get suspicious here. By the end of this strip he's really upset. And in the meantime, Tarquin takes on Nale's defining physical characteristic--His goatee...

[Marnath]

That's why I think Porthos' theory is such a good one. Roy hasn't been a perfect person, but he's been a much better father to Elan than Tarquin has, with the added bonus of being, y'know, Good. Hard though it may be, I think what will snap Elan out of denial will be seeing the father figure he has to harbor far less painful delusions about being hurt. 'Course, we should keep in mind that Elan thinks of Roy as someone who actively enjoys his company... but I figure Elan must have to think of most people like that or get very lonely. ...Elan may secretly be the most depressing character.

Ironically, I think it's actually true that Roy enjoys Elan's company. Anyone who has ever had an annoying younger sibling drive them up the wall has also experienced how much you miss them the first time you spend an extended time away from them.

[cho_j]

Ironically, I think it's actually true that Roy enjoys Elan's company. Anyone who has ever had an annoying younger sibling drive them up the wall has also experienced how much you miss them the first time you spend an extended time away from them.

Ahahaha, you may actually be right. As an annoying younger sibling myself, I can't speak from expericence. ;) But I hope my sister would back you up.

And we do know that Roy likes Elan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html)

[Morty]

I have to agree that Tarquin is an extremely well-written character - a ruthless manipulator hiding under the guise of a charming guy and a doting father - and doing it very well. His interactions with Elan are also cleverly done - it'll take a lot for Eland to believe that his father, who is at this point his lifelong dream come true, is a Lawful Evil bastard. But it's bound to happen eventually and this strip is the first step. I can't wait to see what happens next.

[Cirran]

First time poster, long time reader. I am embarrassed to say. I am finding myself actually thinking. Can we move this along already? In no way do i wish to dish on the comic. It is a highlight of my day when it updates. Am I alone in this feeling of ok I get the point lets move on? :smalleek:

Cirran

[Gray Mage]

Elan- Luke
EoB- Emperor
Malack- how does he figure into this?
Tarquin- Darth Vader
Dragoons- Storm Troopers

I'm probably wrong about the EoB killing the suddenly good Tarquin, but this story arc seems to be pointing in that direction...

You forgot Julio Scoundrel - Obi-Wan. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)

[Porthos]

That's why I think Porthos' theory is such a good one. Roy hasn't been a perfect person, but he's been a much better father to Elan than Tarquin has, with the added bonus of being, y'know, Good. Hard though it may be, I think what will snap Elan out of denial will be seeing the father figure he has to harbor far less painful delusions about being hurt. 'Course, we should keep in mind that Elan thinks of Roy as someone who actively enjoys his company... but I figure Elan must have to think of most people like that or get very lonely. ...Elan may secretly be the most depressing character.

That basic plot tree is one of the ways I think this might go. But there is another basic plot tree that might happen, if Rich wants to torture string Elan along some more:

When Elan discovers that Roy is fighting to the death in the arena, he appeals to his dad to release him. Which Tarquin will do. Elan will take this as a sign that his dad isn't really as bad as he thought (cue groans from the audience :smallwink:). But, as with most things Tarquin, it is a set up.

Because almost immediately afterwards (or even as a condition of release) Tarquin will "ask" Roy to find the location of Girard for him. Maybe he'll come up with some excuse, and maybe he won't. But Roy will be put in the difficult position of finding a Gate for an utter bastard.

It is a variation of the old An Offer He Can't Refuse.

The only question would be: How much of all of this did Tarquin know ahead of time?

I only say this because it does seem to be faintly convenient that someone who is very motivated to find Girard just happens to run into someone who knows something about Girard. If Tarquin wanted to get to/find Girard for a reason of his own....

... Well, Roy would be incredibly useful to him right about now, wouldn't he? And since it appears that Tarquin's MO is to put people in a position where they can't/shouldn't refuse him, I can't shake the feeling that this has either been a setup from almost Day One or a very very quick improvisation on Tarquin's part.

This plot tree helps by tying in Tarquin to the larger main plot instead of relegating him to being "just" a rather lengthy side plot.

Of course, Elan could snap out of it, even if the above theorizing did happen. Maybe long talks from Haley and Roy would be enough. But, again if Rich wanted to torture Elan as much as he recently tortured V, the plot seeds are there for it to happen.

Just something to consider.

[Chaos rising]

Tarquinn has officially crossed into magnificent bastard territory

[faustin]

Tarquin would make a recurrent villain far better than Nale and his "Team Stupid".

[Gd8908]

Damn... I was hoping he'd have figured it out and turn on his dad... but then again, then they'd have no chance of finding Girard's Gate. Well, I suppose it is very "Elan-ish", so points to the Giant for keeping things realistic...
I suppose next strip will be either arguing between Elan and Tarquin, Tarquin "explaining" things to Elan with a boatload of lies, or it'll switch to Haley or Roy and Belkar or something.

[shadowkiller]

Oh, and I figured out Tarquin's plan.

Draketooth and co. are in the Free City of Doom. Tarquin sent those Dragoons to help the Empire of Tears take over the city, and then the Dragoons went off and captured/ killed Draketooth and co. Or tried to, at least. Tarquin is attempting to thwart the Order, plus I think he and Draketooth might be enemies. Do you agree?

Well it's possible but Girard could have used some epic spell to make the army vanish, turned into frogs, attacked by dragons, rain fire upon them the possibilities are endless, even something non epic like gate or weird would work against the low level troops usually in an army. Of course that is assuming he wouldn't just teleport out.

[Banni]

Wait. Maybe this has already been raised in other threads, but no mention yet regarding this strip?

1. The captain emphasizes her disbelief in the betrayal, because (as she understands it), "the Weepies are your enemies, too."

2. That darn Gourntonk, liason from Reptilia, keeps pressing to speak with the EoB, because he has "sensitive information for her ear-holes only" (and, impliedly, not for the ears of the warm-blooded mammalian general who appears nominally her second-in-command and is obviously one of the two PBtT (Powers-Behind-the-Throne)). Likely, because that information implicates said mammal. I note from the map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) that Reptilia is a rather small nation, bordering both the Bloodies and the Weepies, so it's in a position to be concerned if a potential adversary (the Weepies) is undermining a potential ally (the Bloodies).

3. The General himself has already given us his "ominous foreshadowing for later," of how "the destiny of this nation lies in [Elan's] hands!"

We're just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and it's coming . . . it's coming . . . and . . . the Giant loves to frustrate our expectations! :smallbiggrin:

(That's not a complaint. Building expectations and then frustrating them is an acknowledged art, in literature and music. We keep reading, because the final resolution is all the sweeter for it.)

When the shoe does drop, I'm expecting Elan will be "all up in Tarquin's business" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html) about it, because that's Elan, and he lacks any subtlety or discretion about it. (That's also Elan.)

I'm also wondering whether Tarquin's long-time partner Malack is any part of it. I think not. Malack (or the Giant) has done a good job of preserving the ambiguity, whether he is "evil" or "neutral," but his friendship and interest in Durkon seems genuine, and unlike Tarquin (who at least has held a throne before, and so is known to possess such ambitions), Malack seems to be quite content as a PBtT. It is doubtful that he could better his present position, so any change is likely to be for the worse.

I'm also loving the rapid updates, yet another way to "frustrate" our expectations in a way we all heartily approve. :smallsmile:

So you're saying that Tarquin's decided it's time to jump ship on the EOB? I like it...not only is his betrayal of his blushing bride a token of loyalty to his new empire, but if (as implied) the 500 dragoons constitute a significant force, their presence in the city may represent a defection of the troops most personally loyal to Tarquin or a move to place those loyal to the empire itself right into the Weepies' hands.

[Sengoku]

Well, it wouldn't be a very interesting work of fiction if we couldn't use it to talk about greater issues in the real world.

I thought watching a movie or reading a book or a webcomic should NOT trigger a discussion for it to be considered a 'very interesting work of fiction'.

Call me ignorant or superficial, but after having a good laugh I often look for something to drink instead of looking for debate upon real life issues.


Does it occur to you that some of us enjoy these conversations? That for many of us, debating the morality of certain characters is a fun way to do things?

Oh, sure thing, go ahead and have fun, just do so privately; not flooding the thread about the late strip, just create another thread whose purpose is not presenting a new page.


You suggest that we can "just not talk about it at all". I suggest that you can skip those posts talking about aspects of the comic you're not interested in, and only read those that do interest you. Just because YOU do not enjoy the comic in the way WE do does not mean that you are right and we are wrong.

Again, it's not a matter of right or wrong THINGS, it's a matter of right and wrong PLACE.

It's annoying to skip out-of-place discussions after the third page in my book, I'd like to read speculations about what this thread is about, the puns, whose panels show what, which meanings some things may have.

Certainly not ppl repeatedly writing their own opinion about what rape is, why is wrong, how should sexual relationships be handled and so on.

Just re-read it from the start, and tell me what you find most here.

[TheBST]

Elan's starting to get suspicious here.

'course he is. When has anyone other than a villain said 'I tire of this' when attacked?

[HeseMCMXCI]

To me, Tarquin seems an unusual villain. I think we can put him in the same category as Darth Revan, who turned to the dark side not because of becoming evil but out of necessity, to unite the galaxy against something on the outer rim (also, this way star wars reference continues :smallwink:). In Tarquins case, I think he is evil, because he sees that some people have to be evil and that one of the protagonists' father is evil would be a nice dramatic turn of events. Also he is going to be evil in style, and in this comic, that is all that matters. Perhaps he realizes that Xykon needs a rival in evil charisma :smallbiggrin:

[Stegyre]

So you're saying that Tarquin's decided it's time to jump ship on the EOB? I like it...not only is his betrayal of his blushing bride a token of loyalty to his new empire, but if (as implied) the 500 dragoons constitute a significant force, their presence in the city may represent a defection of the troops most personally loyal to Tarquin or a move to place those loyal to the empire itself right into the Weepies' hands.

Goodness (or the Giant) only knows, but I can't help but think that Tarquin plays for bigger fish than this. ATM, he seems quite secure in the EoB, so why jump ship? No. I fear something more is afoot, and I look forward to the unfolding. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

In Tarquins case, I think he is evil, because he sees that some people have to be evil and that one of the protagonists' father is evil would be a nice dramatic turn of events.

That would require him to have known not long after Elan was born that he would one day be a protagonist, given Tarquin was identified as Lawful Evil way back in strip #50...

[Porthos]

To me, Tarquin seems an unusual villain. I think we can put him in the same category as Darth Revan, who turned to the dark side not because of becoming evil but out of necessity, to unite the galaxy against something on the outer rim (also, this way star wars reference continues :smallwink:). In Tarquins case, I think he is evil, because he sees that some people have to be evil and that one of the protagonists' father is evil would be a nice dramatic turn of events. Also he is going to be evil in style, and in this comic, that is all that matters. Perhaps he realizes that Xykon needs a rival in evil charisma :smallbiggrin:

Consider me ultra-PC if you wish, but I think torturing people until they agree to marry you is a bit above and beyond the call of "necessary dramatics". :smallwink:

[Golbez]

Hm, "Though the worst of the violence could have avoided if you had acceded to my request".

He probably ordered the execution of all the pikeman on the south wall just to end her current marriage, or all the pikeman in the city just to be sure.

[Juggling Goth]

Certainly not ppl repeatedly writing their own opinion about what rape is, why is wrong, how should sexual relationships be handled and so on.

Just re-read it from the start, and tell me what you find most here.

But pretty much this whole strip is about his treatment of Amun-Zora (and to a lesser extent, his previous wife in the last panel). There's two panels of politics, and nine panels of Tarquin's relationships. And it's not like it's new, either - lots of previous strips have built up the "Tarquin is a ladies' man" thing. It's a big thing about his character - affably evil is still evil, magnificent bastard is still a bastard. His actions are part of the plot, his actions inform his character... I am interested in his treatment of Amun-Zora, and it's the most significant thing about this strip for me. Heck, it looks like being the thing that clues in Elan.

If that's not what jumps out at you about this strip, well, fair enough. You don't have to discuss it. You're perfectly welcome to discuss other stuff. But other people aren't doing it wrong when they discuss stuff they found significant.

[Sengoku]

But pretty much this whole strip is about his treatment of Amun-Zora (and to a lesser extent, his previous wife in the last panel). There's two panels of politics, and nine panels of Tarquin's relationships. And it's not like it's new, either - lots of previous strips have built up the "Tarquin is a ladies' man" thing. It's a big thing about his character - affably evil is still evil, magnificent bastard is still a bastard. His actions are part of the plot, his actions inform his character... I am interested in his treatment of Amun-Zora, and it's the most significant thing about this strip for me. Heck, it looks like being the thing that clues in Elan.

If that's not what jumps out at you about this strip, well, fair enough. You don't have to discuss it. You're perfectly welcome to discuss other stuff. But other people aren't doing it wrong when they discuss stuff they found significant.

They are wrong if they do that in the wrong way.

I'm not questioning your or anyone's right to debate, just the fact that debating about the strip here is the reason of this thread.

Debating about real life's moral issues connected to events of this strip can and should find its place elsewhere.

[Juggling Goth]

just the fact that debating about the strip here is the reason of this thread.

Debating about real life's moral issues connected to events of this strip can and should find its place elsewhere.

I don't think anybody's taken it off-topic; they're still discussing the events of the strip and what it implies for the characters in it.

[Kish]

Certainly not ppl repeatedly writing their own opinion about what rape is, why is wrong, how should sexual relationships be handled and so on.

Just re-read it from the start, and tell me what you find most here.
One, you're writing as though anyone's been debating. But reading up the thread, all I'm seeing on the subject is, "Wouldn't that be rape? Sure would! I wonder why he's forcing her to marry him instead of just having her brought in chains to his bedchamber..."

And two, there is very little more pointless than writing, "I want you guys to stop talking about the on-topic thing you're talking about!" All it's going to do is add weird pointless posts to the middle of the discussion. If you think someone's violated the board rules, report it. If you'd rather people only have the discussions you want to participate in, well, you're out of luck.

[Marnath]

Oh, sure thing, go ahead and have fun, just do so privately; not flooding the thread about the late strip, just create another thread whose purpose is not presenting a new page.

This is the Discussion thread for the strip. We're here to talk about the strip. That's the entire point of this thread. If you don't like it, stop reading it. You're the only person who's been bothered by it so far.

[Elfin]

Ouch.
It's hard to believe that Elan is really that blind, though.

Anyway, great comic.

[Porthos]

It's hard to believe that Elan is really that blind, though.

"There are none so blind, as those who refuse to see."

[kyoryu]

I'm really loving the affably evil/magnificent bastard/cheerful malevolence of Tarquin.

[Sengoku]

This is the Discussion thread for the strip. We're here to talk about the strip. That's the entire point of this thread. If you don't like it, stop reading it. You're the only person who's been bothered by it so far.

You mean the only person who got tired enough to spend time to ask a bunch of ppl to stay on topic.


If you think someone's violated the board rules, report it.

I have wasted enough time, have it your own way, the moment I'd report this any mod would laugh asking to make better use of his time (and mine, perhaps).

I will ask the Giant to add the label 'No real people was harmed/injured/raped/killed (insert the subject of your real life issue) during the making of this webcomic' or 'Not safe for children', maybe that could put your souls to rest...

[Stegyre]

Consider me ultra-PC if you wish, but I think torturing people until they agree to marry you is a bit above and beyond the call of "necessary dramatics". :smallwink:
And yet it's a classic trope, and older than dirt (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IHaveYouNowMyPretty).

TV Tropes gives an excellent and apt summary for its use: "Want a quick and easy way to show what a vile, evil scumbag your villain is?"

Point being, not that it's right (by any means), but Tarquin, like Elan, is inherently genre-saavy.

Authorially, this particular sub-arc also allows the Giant to demonstrate that, however handsome, charming, and intelligent Tarquin may be, he is also a very, very BAD MAN.

[Marnath]

You mean the only person who got tired enough to spend time to ask a bunch of ppl to stay on topic.

We ARE on topic here. The current strip is the topic. Any new threads to talk about different aspects of it get merged with this one.


I have wasted enough time, have it your own way, the moment I'd report this any mod would laugh asking to make better use of his time (and mine, perhaps).


Pretty sure I didn't break any rules there. I merely offered a suggestion, that if you aren't enjoying something, you are not required to continue it.

[Porthos]

Authorially, this particular sub-arc also allows the Giant to demonstrate that, however handsome, charming, and intelligent Tarquin may be, he is also a very, very BAD MAN.

Well, yes. My point is that I don't think Tarquin is being evil because having a Good Son requires him to be evil. I think Tarquin is evil, because he wants to be evil. :smallwink:

[Damaris]

Tarquin is awesome. In an evil way.


Hm, "Though the worst of the violence could have avoided if you had acceded to my request".

He probably ordered the execution of all the pikeman on the south wall just to end her current marriage, or all the pikeman in the city just to be sure.

Oh, I didn't catch that, I wondered if he meant *just* her husband or what, but this sounds more likely. Nasty.

[Tobimaro]

Tarquin would make a recurrent villain far better than Nale and his "Team Stupid".

Except that the Linear Guild is under contract to reappear and make things go bad for the Order of the Stick. Plus, the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Council has plans for the Linear Guild. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

[Quorothorn]

'course he is. When has anyone other than a villain said 'I tire of this' when attacked?

Huh. That's a good point you've got there.


Hm, "Though the worst of the violence could have avoided if you had acceded to my request".

He probably ordered the execution of all the pikeman on the south wall just to end her current marriage, or all the pikeman in the city just to be sure.

Yes (the former being more likely than the latter, IMO).

And can I just add that the way Tarquin delivers that bit of news is...jaw-unhingeingly Evilly Affable?

[maxon]

C'mon Elan - you can do it.


So all the respect I had for the ambassador for being determined enough to attack Tarquin single-handedly vanished when it turned out she cheated on her husband.

Did I miss something? Where is it shown that she cheated on her husband? And why does it make a difference?

[Cerlis]

I thought watching a movie or reading a book or a webcomic should NOT trigger a discussion for it to be considered a 'very interesting work of fiction'.

Call me ignorant or superficial, but after having a good laugh I often look for something to drink instead of looking for debate upon real life issues.



Oh, sure thing, go ahead and have fun, just do so privately; not flooding the thread about the late strip, just create another thread whose purpose is not presenting a new page.



Again, it's not a matter of right or wrong THINGS, it's a matter of right and wrong PLACE.

It's annoying to skip out-of-place discussions after the third page in my book, I'd like to read speculations about what this thread is about, the puns, whose panels show what, which meanings some things may have.

Certainly not ppl repeatedly writing their own opinion about what rape is, why is wrong, how should sexual relationships be handled and so on.

Just re-read it from the start, and tell me what you find most here.

Well this is the official thread in which to discuss the topic. I thought thats why the Mods here are so stingy about Topicnecromancy and multiple threads. The morality behind the situation is part of the story


Speaking of "laws and customs", I think this is also the reason he never defended himself against Amun-Zora (and in fact goaded her as much as possible). He himself said that attacking a general is a death sentence in this country (though given the what the "lenient" sentences in the Kingdom of Blood are, that might not be saying much ). Regardless, Tarquin set up a situation where he could have a legal pretext to incarcerating Amun-Zora, and thus put her in a position where he could break her will at his leisure.

He seems a bit indifferent to Amun-Zora's feelings to have anticipated her attack. I mean with experience i'm sure he knew it was just a matter of time till she tried to assassinate him. Eh my point is pointless, since at the time we dont really kno i think.
If he didnt anticipate it so soon, then he at least jumped at an opporunity
because Now Amun-Zora can either marry him; or decide not to be his "Bride to be" thus the courts have no reason to not give her a death sentence. He pointed out that is probably the only way she isnt getting excecuted

[Marnath]

Did I miss something? Where is it shown that she cheated on her husband? And why does it make a difference?

It's not shown. And in my opinion, the facts do not support that conclusion.

[TheNerdMiester]

Oooh, which one is that. Mrs. Tarquin the second? Mrs. Tarquin the seventh, mayhaps?

ninth:
here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html)

[Marnath]

ninth:
here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html)

Neither of those prove this is the 9th wife that is pictured. :smallconfused:

[TheNerdMiester]

Neither of those prove this is the 9th wife that is pictured. :smallconfused:

tenth, oops

[TheNerdMiester]

Did I miss something? Where is it shown that she cheated on her husband? And why does it make a difference?


right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html)

it's assumed though.

[Marnath]

tenth, oops

Oh, I see. You are confused. Future wife number 10 is Amun-Zora(the one who attacked tarquin just now.) The question of which wife that is, refers to Ms. greenshirt being tortured in the last panel.

[Geno9999]

757: yet another comic that shows Elan's sudden case of Idiot Ball/Genre Blindness, and Tarquin's magnificent bastard skills.

I think there is some change Elan's views in regard to Tarquin, but it's only a small bit, since he barely got that Tarquin had effectively killed the ambassador's husband, and then it was only "accidentally."

[TheNerdMiester]

Oh, I see. You are confused. Future wife number 10 is Amun-Zora(the one who attacked tarquin just now.) The question of which wife that is, refers to Ms. greenshirt being tortured in the last panel.

I think that's the captain being tortured 'in the future' but by a guy who looks like Tarquin.

[Marnath]

I think that's the captain being tortured 'in the future' but by a guy who looks like Tarquin.

And what, she suddenly became a white woman? No, this is a flashback.

[TheNerdMiester]

And what, she suddenly became a white woman? No, this is a flashback.

ah, but what if Giant made everyone blue-colored when cold? Then she could be black or white, OR PURPLE!

[Marnath]

ah, but what if Giant made everyone blue-colored when cold? Then she could be black or white, OR PURPLE!

Her hair is a different color too. :smallsigh:

[TheNerdMiester]

Her hair is a different color too. :smallsigh:

Okay you win, i'm convinced.

[SPoD]

Did I miss something? Where is it shown that she cheated on her husband? And why does it make a difference?

He's misinterpreting events. He's assuming (as we all did when the comic was posted) that the events of #749 show Amun-Zora leaving Tarquin's chamber after sleeping with him.

However, the dialogue in the current comic show us that she did NOT sleep with him, he simply summoned her to his bedchamber in the morning (which tells us that she did not spend the night, or else why would she need to be summoned?). That is why she got so nervous when Elan saw her, because she knew it looked like she was doing the Walk of Shame when she hadn't actually done anything wrong.

[TheNerdMiester]

I didn't think about that!

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[BridgeCity]

He's misinterpreting events. He's assuming (as we all did when the comic was posted) that the events of #749 show Amun-Zora leaving Tarquin's chamber after sleeping with him.

However, the dialogue in the current comic show us that she did NOT sleep with him, he simply summoned her to his bedchamber in the morning (which tells us that she did not spend the night, or else why would she need to be summoned?). That is why she got so nervous when Elan saw her, because she knew it looked like she was doing the Walk of Shame when she hadn't actually done anything wrong.

I'm not trying to convince anyone here, I have my views and you have yours, but I feel that it needs to be pointed out that being summoned in the morning does not automatically mean she didnt sleep with him, it means she didn't spend the night . . . thats all.

I personally don't see Tarquin as the kind of guy who likes to snuggle afterwards, I see him as the guy who likes to get his gratification and then make the woman leave. The summoning back in the morning is, to my mind, Tarquin deciding he wants sex again and simply making it happen.

And one interpretation of why she looks nervous is just as valid as the other, we have no way to tell. Which is why I have stated I'm not trying to bend anyone to my point of view, merely stating what I feel happened.


. . . And why does it make a difference?

It makes a difference to me, which is why I said it. As someone posted earlier, compromising morals for the greater good can lead to a slippery slope, and fidelity is very very important to me.

Again, I'm not saying everyone should agree with me, I actually don't want everyone to agree with me, because differeing opinions makes the world an interesting place.

[Porthos]

I'm not trying to convince anyone here, I have my views and you have yours, but I feel that it needs to be pointed out that being summoned in the morning does not automatically mean she didnt sleep with him, it means she didn't spend the night . . . thats all.

The counterpoint, however, is that there isn't any actual evidence that she did sleep with him.

So, absent of any evidence that she did sleep with him, shouldn't one presume that she didn't? Especially after how strongly she reacted over being married?

EDIT::::

Just to get the inevitable out of the way. :smalltongue:

General Tarquin says to Captain Amun-Zora that "some ways are more entertaining than others" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) when it comes to "sealing an alliance". It is clear that he is trying to get her in the sack here.

Fair enuf.

In Comic #743 we see them standing next to each other. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html) But no holding hands. No sign of friendship. No body contact. Nothing.

And considering this scene takes place almost immediately after #742, the fact that Captain Amun-Zora is next to General Tarquin is perfectly logical.

In Comic #744, the Captain is seen dining near the General. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) But, again, no sign whatsoever of friendly contact, courtship, or anything even resembling eye contact.

Finally, we next see Captain Amun-Zora walking out of (and then running away from) General Tarquin's bedroom in the morning. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html) Except, as we now know, she was summoned there that morning. And we even know that she told him that she was married the night before (though this was off screen).

So where exactly should we get the idea that she actually slept with him? It's not hinted at anywhere in the comic, given the revelations in the latest strip.

[Katana_Geldar]

When I was reading Tarquin's dialogue I could not help be reminded of Nale's monologuing and scheming.

[BridgeCity]

The counterpoint, however, is that there isn't any actual evidence that she did sleep with him.

So, absent of any evidence that she did sleep with him, shouldn't one presume that she didn't? Especially after how strongly she reacted over being married?

I disagree, because inferring events and outcomes when the proof or detail is not provided is very valid. {{scrubbed}}

In the context of a story, saying that there is no solid proof so we should automatically assume it didn't happen leads to pretty bland stories where every single event must be documented. If thats cool with you then fine, but I wouldn't find such a story very interesting.

Also, I don't feel her reaction was all that strong. She just seems frustrated that he won't take no for an answer. I'll give you she has a strong reaction to finding out he had her husband killed, but that's something else entirely.




In Comic #743 we see them standing next to each other. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html) But no holding hands. No sign of friendship. No body contact. Nothing.

And considering this scene takes place almost immediately after #742, the fact that Captain Amun-Zora is next to General Tarquin is perfectly logical.

In Comic #744, the Captain is seen dining near the General. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) But, again, no sign whatsoever of friendly contact, courtship, or anything even resembling eye contact.



Maybe you would do things differently, but if I was having an affair, I wouldn't broadcast it in a highly public place. That would just be dumb.

[Marnath]

I disagree, because inferring events and outcomes when the proof or detail is not provided is very valid. {{scrubbed}}

In the context of a story, saying that there is no solid proof so we should automatically assume it didn't happen leads to pretty bland stories where every single event must be documented. If thats cool with you then fine, but I wouldn't find such a story very interesting.

Also, I don't feel her reaction was all that strong. She just seems frustrated that he won't take no for an answer. I'll give you she has a strong reaction to finding out he had her husband killed, but that's something else entirely.



Maybe you would do things differently, but If I was having an affair, I wouldn't broadcast in in a highly public place. That's just dumb.

I can say the same to you. You have no more evidence than he does, arguably less so. What makes your inferrence more likely?

*edit: it's a state dinner. No one would know they were having sex just by sitting at the same table.

[Porthos]

{{scrubbed}}

Huh.

*thinks*

*thinks some more*

I must be much dumber than the average five year old in your country then. How will I ever live with the shame? :smallfrown:


In the context of a story, saying that there is no solid proof so we should automatically assume it didn't happen leads to pretty bland stories where every single event must be documented. If thats cool with you then fine, but I wouldn't find such a story very interesting.

Also, I don't feel her reaction was all that strong. She just seems frustrated that he won't take no for an answer. I'll give you she has a strong reaction to finding out he had her husband killed, but that's something else entirely.

Again, why would you think that she slept with him? There isn't even a scrap of evidence, to use your own words.

Do you presume that Belkar and V are carrying a torrid love/hate relationship offscreen? There's just as much evidence for that, after all, as there is for Amun-Zora and Tarquin for Doing the Nasty. :smalltongue:

[BridgeCity]

I can say the same to you. You have no more evidence than he does, arguably less so. What makes your inferrence more likely?

Dude, I feel you need to more carefully read my posts before responding to them. I have never said mine are more likely, I have said they are how I feel. I have explicitly stated I'm not trying to sway anyone, I have even explicitly stated I don't WANT to sway anyone.

So yes, you can say the same.

[BridgeCity]

Huh.

*thinks*

*thinks some more*

I must be much dumber than the average five year old in your country then. How will I ever live with the shame? :smallfrown:



Do you presume that Belkar and V are carrying a torrid love/hate relationship offscreen? There's just as much evidence for that, after all, as there is for Amun-Zora and Tarquin for Doing the Nasty. :smalltongue:



Alright, looks like what I thought was a nice discussion has been turned into snarky comments, so I'll just leave it there. Have fun.

[Querzis]

In a way yes but Nale is much less cold. He kill out of anger and actually show affection toward Sabine. Tarquin just seems to much less...care I guess. What I'm saying here is that Nale is usually being a bastard who get furious easely and wanna kill the object of his anger while Tarquin is a scheming evil guy who see everyone as a tool in his plan.

Its kinda hard to explain but what I'm saying is that while their actions are very similar, their motivations are totally different.

But it does really explain Nale personnality. I really never understood how Nale could consider himself Lawful Evil when he acts almost only on whims and on feelings, for me he was always obviously chaotic evil but now I totally get it. He tries to be an evil chessmaster that always see the bigger picture because his father taught him that it was the most efficient way to do things. Nale is basically an evil bard, he got the personnality and the built for it but he tried all his life to be an evil overlord because it worked for his father. He actually said in one of his first appearance that he didnt become a bard cause his father told him they were underpowered but he still unconciously made a built thats pretty much the same thing as a bard because thats what he really wanted to be.

Nale is trying to be an evil overlord like his father despite the fact that he is, and always was, a psycho killer interested mostly in whats in front of him right now. Everytime he try to plan ahead and see the bigger picture he fails hilariously but when he does whatever seems appropriate at the moment and improvise, thats where he shine (just look at the end of the second fight between him and Elan where he almost convinced Elan of all people to kill Haley). Nale is Chaotic Evil but tries to be Lawful Evil cause his father was. At least thats how I see it.

[Marnath]

{{scrubbed}}

[Porthos]

Alright, looks like what I thought was a nice discussion has been turned into snarky comments, so I'll just leave it there. Have fun.

Psst... I wasn't the one who brought out the Five Year Old Card. :smallwink:

But if you want to have a "nice discussion", no problem. I will simply ask you, once again, what is the actual scraps of info that caused you to infer that Tarquin and Amun-Zora slept together.

I mean, it must be something, right? So what was it? :smallsmile:

[BridgeCity]

Psst... I wasn't the one who brought out the Five Year Old Card. :smallwink:

But if you want to have a "nice discussion", no problem. I will simply ask you, once again, what is the actual scraps of info that caused you to infer that Tarquin and Amun-Zora slept together.

I mean, it must be something, right? So what was it? :smallsmile:

I feel that if she was visiting Tarquin in the morning and nothing had happened, she wouldn't have looked nervous. She is an ambassador, she should be able to control herself rather well. From that I take that she did actually have something to be ashamed of.

Maybe you are more jaded than I, but the reference to 5 year olds was no insult. It was pointing out it's importance in society, or my society at least, given that we strive to achieve this ability as early as possible and therefore it should not be dismissed so easily.

If you take offense to that I think it is more you looking for it than it actually being there.

[Marnath]

you are more jaded than I, but the reference to 5 year olds was no insult. It was pointing out it's importance in society, or my society at least, given that we strive to achieve this ability as early as possible and therefore it should not be dismissed so easily.

If you take offense to that I think it is more you looking for it than it actually being there.

That is absolutely an insult. It implies that people not from your society(I.E. us) do not possess that same reasoning capacity, which is patently ridiculous. It also seems to imply that, since you have this ability and we don't, your position is obviously superior due to greater insight.

*edit: and you just did it again, assuming that we are insulted because we're jaded, rather than because it was an offensive and insensitive thing to say.

[Porthos]

From that I take that she did actually have something to be ashamed of.

Well, here's my counter argument to that. If she is as concerned for her marriage vows as she claims she is, wouldn't she be as embarrassed to be seen walking out of the General's Quarters by the General's son in the early morning hours? If she thought that Elan would get the wrong idea when he saw that, it would be perfectly natural for her to be embarrassed. Especially when said General walks out in a Hugh Hefner style pajama suit?

As for, "She is an ambassador, she should be able to control herself rather well." Wouldn't that also apply if she did have a one night stand? Surely if she could cover her emotions over embarrassment in one case, she could cover them in another.


If you take offense to that I think it is more you looking for it than it actually being there.

<joke>
Maybe I inferred it from some scraps of info? :smalltongue:
</joke>

[Conuly]

It's annoying to skip out-of-place discussions after the third page in my book, I'd like to read speculations about what this thread is about, the puns, whose panels show what, which meanings some things may have.


And the moral implications of the current strip, yes. We are on topic. We're discussing strip 757. That's what this thread is for. If you want to talk about the puns, or dissect which panel shows what, you'll get more of those sort of posts if, instead of asking us to stop, you post some of those comments of your own.

[BridgeCity]

That is absolutely an insult. It implies that people not from your society(I.E. us) do not possess that same reasoning capacity, which is patently ridiculous. It also seems to imply that, since you have this ability and we don't, your position is obviously superior due to greater insight.

*edit: and you just did it again, assuming that we are insulted because we're jaded, rather than because it was an offensive and insensitive thing to say.

I'm sorry, but you have it completely wrong. Given that I'm not of your culture, I do not know what is taught in your schools and what is important, I am not arrogant enough to assume I do. Therefore, I pointed out what is important in mine, to show where my reasoning is comming from, as that is all I have to work with.

As for my position being greater, I have already said, more than once, I consider everyone's point of view to be on the same level. It is you that seems to be trying to make this a power struggle.


Well, here's my counter argument to that. If she is as concerned for her marriage vows as she claims she is, wouldn't she be as embarrassed to be seen walking out of the General's Quarters by the General's son in the early morning hours? If she thought that Elan would get the wrong idea when he saw that, it would be perfectly natural for her to be embarrassed. Especially when said General walks out in a Hugh Hefner style pajama suit?

Perfectly logical, and as I've said I can see where you are coming from, I just don't agree, based on my own observations. You can go either way, I've gone one, you have gone the other, and we are free to draw our own conclusions.


As for, "She is an ambassador, she should be able to control herself rather well." Wouldn't that also apply if she did have a one night stand? Surely if she could cover her emotions over embarrassment in one case, she could cover them in another.


Except that I feel the effects of the possibility of someone believeing you slept with the General when you did not, and being guilty of actually having slept with the General and being faced with getting caught, are different. The latter is far more stressful, and so I feel it would be able to elicit this kind of response.



<joke>
Maybe I inferred it from some scraps of info? :smalltongue:
</joke>

Infectious, isn't it. :smalltongue:

[krossbow7]

I have to admit, i'm somewhat stumped about Tarquin and Elans mother.


Tarquin has clearly shown true ruthlesness and a willingness to abuse his future wives as well as to dispose of them via "mysterious circumstances".

So how the heck did elan's mother get off? Heck, not only is she alive and well, she got custody of one of the kids! It just seems that he's far too cold to have calmly broken up with his first wife with no incident.

[Xykeb Zraliv]

I feel that if she was visiting Tarquin in the morning and nothing had happened, she wouldn't have looked nervous. She is an ambassador, she should be able to control herself rather well. From that I take that she did actually have something to be ashamed of.

What exactly constitutes as "nothing", though? Tarquin had just asked her to marry him for the second time in less than 24 hours, despite the fact that she already told him she was married. His persistence would naturally make somebody in that position flustered.

[BridgeCity]

What exactly constitutes as "nothing", though? Tarquin had just asked her to marry him for the second time in less than 24 hours, despite the fact that she already told him she was married. His persistence would naturally make somebody in that position flustered.

If that's how you see it, that's cool. Not how I see it. To me she looks more ashamed/scared than flustered.

[Porthos]

I have to admit, i'm somewhat stumped about Tarquin and Elans mother.


Tarquin has clearly shown true ruthlesness and a willingness to abuse his future wives as well as to dispose of them via "mysterious circumstances".

So how the heck did elan's mother get off? Heck, not only is she alive and well, she got custody of one of the kids! It just seems that he's far too cold to have calmly broken up with his first wife with no incident.
Perhaps it is the ease of Elan's mother escaping which made Tarquin vow never to let it happen again.

Also, if one wants to dwell on such things, it is possible that Elan's mother was the One Love of Tarquin's Life (if a person like him could ever truly love). Perhaps everything else after her was a pale shadow, which makes it easier for him to use them and lose them, as the idiom goes. Perhaps the pain he felt over the divorce (if he felt any) has inured him to true romantic feelings ever again. And so he will instead engage in a never ending stream of conquests.

Heck, if one wants to get all psychological about it (and give Tarquin the misogynistic attitudes) this might be Tarquin's way of "punishing" women as a whole. He will intentionally try to make people suffer as a way of coping with his own pain. It wouldn't be the first time that someone turned vaguely psychotic after a love affair gone bad.

Or, like I said, maybe she just got lucky, or Tarquin hadn't hit upon his marrying scheme yet. Too soon to tell, really.

[Toper]

What exactly constitutes as "nothing", though? Tarquin had just asked her to marry him for the second time in less than 24 hours, despite the fact that she already told him she was married. His persistence would naturally make somebody in that position flustered.
This has gotten silly. If the Giant had wanted to continue implying that they'd slept together, he just wouldn't have written the "last night and again this morning" bit. The only reason for that bit of speech is to imply that they didn't; otherwise it's totally out of place and weird. Everybody here but BC can apparently detect this, and he's not changing his mind.

[Marnath]

This has gotten silly. If the Giant had wanted to continue implying that they'd slept together, he just wouldn't have written the "last night and again this morning" bit. The only reason for that bit of speech is to imply that they didn't; otherwise it's totally out of place and weird. Everybody here but BC can apparently detect this, and he's not changing his mind.

Yeah, I realized that he's not going to accept the logic of us lesser beings, so I stopped arguing with him. Not worth the stress. :smallsmile:

[BridgeCity]

Yeah, I realized that he's not going to accept the logic of us lesser beings, so I stopped arguing with him. Not worth the stress. :smallsmile:

I'm sorry you feel that way. I still don't see how you can think that I think my point of view is more important when I have said right the start it isn't, but hey, that's up to you.


This has gotten silly. If the Giant had wanted to continue implying that they'd slept together, he just wouldn't have written the "last night and again this morning" bit. The only reason for that bit of speech is to imply that they didn't; otherwise it's totally out of place and weird. Everybody here but BC can apparently detect this, and he's not changing his mind.

I've never asked anyone to change their mind on this, so why are you so forcefully trying to get me to change mine? I'm happy for everyone to think what they want to, and have said this often.

People here seem to be taking offense to the fact I have my own point of view, even though this was just a friendly discussion between myself and another poster. Sad that it went this way, but that's life.

Have fun guys.

[Dr.Epic]

Meh, Nale's at least shown loyalty to one person he's...um,...washed the monkey with.

[Raistlin1040]

Meh, Nale's at least shown loyalty to one person he's...um,...washed the monkey with.You think so? I thought he treated Thog quite poorly most of the time.

[slayerx]

Ya The girl didn't cheat on her husband... what little scraps of evidence we have suggests she did not sleep with tarquin... honestly why would the Giant bother to say "she was summoned the next morning" if not to make it clear she did not spend the night... A little O-Chul's razor here; it be a lot simpler to just say she spent the whole night if it was meant to be clear that did cheat with him.


I have to admit, i'm somewhat stumped about Tarquin and Elans mother.


Tarquin has clearly shown true ruthlesness and a willingness to abuse his future wives as well as to dispose of them via "mysterious circumstances".

So how the heck did elan's mother get off? Heck, not only is she alive and well, she got custody of one of the kids! It just seems that he's far too cold to have calmly broken up with his first wife with no incident.

Well it could be that he might not have actually had to force her to marry him... even though she is CG, she may have gone through a badboy phase and really liked Tarquin's darkside... however once the kids came in she realized that Tarquin would make for an awful father figure... When it comes down to it he may have cared for her a lot more than the others and she was the mother of his children (even an evil bastard can value family). As such it was enough to not make him have to kill her to get both his boys.

[Juggling Goth]

I have to admit, i'm somewhat stumped about Tarquin and Elans mother.


Tarquin has clearly shown true ruthlesness and a willingness to abuse his future wives as well as to dispose of them via "mysterious circumstances".

So how the heck did elan's mother get off? Heck, not only is she alive and well, she got custody of one of the kids! It just seems that he's far too cold to have calmly broken up with his first wife with no incident.

Has it been outright stated that Elan's mother was his first wife? (I'm just curious.)

I tend to think she was, too, and he got worse afterwards. (Or got better at being evil, with practice.) Kind of makes me think of Henry VIII - his first marriage, to Catherine of Aragon, lasted longer than all the others put together.

All we've seen for sure is that his most recent wife died from mysterious circumstances (though the fact he's got through so many obviously implies he's getting rid of them somehow), and an un-numbered wife was tortured into marrying him. If we assume anonymous wife is one of the later ones...

Since he's got through eight women between Elan's mom and Amun-Zora, presumably over twenty years or so, there's plenty of time for his behaviour to degrade. Whether there's a sudden drop-off after Elan's mom, or whether the marriages progressively get shorter and nastier, there's long enough for him to change his approach. Presumably treating your wives as disposable is something that gets easier with practice.

[lordyoshi01]

I like that woman, she's got guts for attacking a high level warlord in front of his son.

[Juggling Goth]

I like that woman, she's got guts for attacking a high level warlord in front of his son.

Yeah, I like her, too. I hope she gets rescued. Or breaks herself out.

[Mastikator]

The difference is that Nale is a violent narcissist while Tarqin a sociopath.
See, Nale could never accept rejection, he thinks he's perfect and above everyone, and anyone who disagrees must be killed painfully in front of him (preferably by him).
Tarqin on the other hand is superficially charming but really totally cold and has no remorse or conscience.
Tarqin could probably Elan without blinking. Nale on the other hand makes a big ceremony out of destroying Elan (he's done it twice thus far).

[Porthos]

Has it been outright stated that Elan's mother was his first wife? (I'm just curious.)

Yep. Fourth panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) :smallsmile:

[Evil DM Mark3]

Meh, Nale's at least shown loyalty to one person he's...um,...washed the monkey with.You think so? I thought he treated Thog quite poorly most of the time.:eek:

OK, I think you missed the euphemism. Or you write terrifying fan fic.

[hamishspence]

Ya The girl didn't cheat on her husband... what little scraps of evidence we have suggests she did not sleep with tarquin... honestly why would the Giant bother to say "she was summoned the next morning" if not to make it clear she did not spend the night... A little O-Chul's razor here; it be a lot simpler to just say she spent the whole night if it was meant to be clear that did cheat with him.

I'm not sure where people got the idea she did in the first place- maybe it was her expression, and Tarquin's, in strip 749:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html

[Kish]

I'm not sure where people got the idea she did in the first place- maybe it was her expression, and Tarquin's, in strip 749:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html
Which, in retrospect, has me very much going, "I should have thought more about why she seemed particularly upset when Elan ran into here there."

[factotum]

I'm not sure where people got the idea she did in the first place- maybe it was her expression, and Tarquin's, in strip 749:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html

Her expression there could easily be because she realises that it looks a bit dodgy, her coming out of Tarquin's bedchamber, even if nothing untoward happened inside it--and it *is* Tarquin's son she's just bumped into!