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View Full Version : Best way to bypass Rope trick & etc



Raendyn
2010-11-10, 02:53 AM
As title mentions,

I am looking for easy or fun ways to bypass a party's camp protections.

Usually they use rope trick,that's why its mentioned above, it seems to be better than the higher lvl
"rest protectors".

So i am asking for something that does not yells outright
"I AM BYPASSING YOUR BARRIERS BECAUSE I AM A DM!"

i would prefer some elegance:smallwink:

Any ideas?

senrath
2010-11-10, 02:56 AM
Transdimensional Spell. That is all.

Seffbasilisk
2010-11-10, 02:59 AM
Rope-a-dope, or, if you prefer, rent-a-dope.

Hire a local hunter, with his hounds, to find them. The dogs track the scent, and then are all confused where it disappears. Hunter looks up.

Adamaro
2010-11-10, 05:05 AM
Yeah but hunter needs True seeing or See invisibility

"The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it!"

Jack_Simth
2010-11-10, 08:00 AM
Yeah but hunter needs True seeing or See invisibility

"The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it!"
A sufficiently high Spot check will let you know that there are invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) things about:

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). (Emphasis added)

So yes, it's doable.

But there's many ways - perhaps one of the patrollers has the Magic Sensitive Reserve feat (Complete Mage - requires access to 3rd level spells), and started looking around when the trail of death ended. Perhaps someone used Permanency on Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, or See Invisibility. Maybe there's a Beholder wandering around with it's antimagic eye open. Maybe the BBEG has a few minions that have True Seeing as a racial ability (Like the CR 8 Erinyes, the CR 20 Balor, the CR 13 Glabrezu, the CR 17 Maralith, or the CR 14 Nafalshnee), or maybe just Detect Magic (Like the CR 1 Hatchling phaerimm from Lost Empires of Faerun).

Or maybe they've got trackers that use logic - think about it: the PC's are working their way through the dungeon, slaughtering everything in sight, and when they get tired, they stop, put up their Rope Trick, and rest up. Tell me, did they think to go back 1d3 rooms before doing that? If not, it's pretty easy to conclude that the PC's are hiding in the last disturbed room, isn't it?

amaranth69
2010-11-10, 08:15 AM
Just give them a heward's handy haversack or a bag of holding. Then they can't use rope trick unless they leave the item and everything in it outside.

panaikhan
2010-11-10, 08:26 AM
Or maybe they've got trackers that use logic - think about it: the PC's are working their way through the dungeon, slaughtering everything in sight, and when they get tired, they stop, put up their Rope Trick, and rest up. Tell me, did they think to go back 1d3 rooms before doing that? If not, it's pretty easy to conclude that the PC's are hiding in the last disturbed room, isn't it?

Our party is considerably more sneaky than that. We'd go back to find an easily-defendable room with only one door, wizard-lock the door, then use rope trick some 30'-40' down the corridor from it.

Kobold-Bard
2010-11-10, 08:33 AM
Just give them a heward's handy haversack or a bag of holding. Then they can't use rope trick unless they leave the item and everything in it outside.

Not sure where but I'm relatively certain Word of God said Rope Trick didn't trigger a multi-dimensional crisis due to extradimensional space.

Raum
2010-11-10, 08:34 AM
Rope trick is fairly easy to deal with. Sooner or later, someone tracking or watching the PCs is going to either notice the portal (tracks suddenly ending should be a big clue) or simply see them casting and climbing up inside. Then it's easy...fire. Smoke from a fire will both obscure the area and make getting out difficult even if you rule the RT has it's own air source (and extra-dimensional spaces usually don't). Then it's just a matter of picking them off...

WinWin
2010-11-10, 08:37 AM
There are 2 parts to a Rope Trick.

1. The extradimensional space.

2. The portal.

Spell effects cannot cross the threshold of the portal. Nothing says they can't effect portal itself...

Assuming the portal can be detected, it can technically be dispelled. Granted, the portal is only part of the spell, but the dispel only needs to target it (not the extradimensional space 'behind' it) in oder to shut the rope trick down.

Not a great idea to use it all of the time. In hostile territory though, even a spellcaster such as an Adept has a chance of figuring out the type of magic being used if they can 'observe' the effect. In order to preserve vermisillitude, this method of control is best used when the PC's are camped inside a dungeon with intelligent spellcasting adversaries.

Outside of a dungeon, I guess a tracker could find the area where the PC's dissapear. If such a tracker has detect magic or see invisibility (or an ally capable of detecting the Rope Trick), they may be able to put 2 and 2 together.


Other method of bypassing Rope Trick depend on the character or monster. Plane Shift or Astral Projection may work, providing an SLA is used for Plane Shift. The accuracy of Plane Shift leaves a lot to be desired...Considering the most accurate result would still technically place the character out of the area of the rope trick even though planar travel is assured.

Heliomance
2010-11-10, 08:37 AM
Just give them a heward's handy haversack or a bag of holding. Then they can't use rope trick unless they leave the item and everything in it outside.

Not true. The only interactions that cause problems are portable hole inside bag of holding and vice versa. Yes, rope trick says it could be "hazardous", but as it never bothers to define hazardous, there are no mechanical effects for taking a bag of holding into a rope trick and you're entirely in the clear.

awa
2010-11-10, 08:45 AM
it means the dm needs to come up with the hazarded not that there are none

panaikhan
2010-11-10, 08:47 AM
Well, you could give them a ring. A special ring.
Give them an artifact-level ring (so it's immune to identify) that does something useful, but is cursed (so they can't take it off once they discover it's other function).
Make the other function Dimentional Anchor.

gdiddy
2010-11-10, 08:59 AM
1. Someone casts dispel on the entrance.
2. Party ends up in Sigil.
3. .................
4. PROFIT!

Myth
2010-11-10, 09:59 AM
Send a sneak to see where they are retreating after their battles.
Cast AMF below the exit.
Have a bunch of skeletal archers wait with readied actions to shoot anything coming out of the exit. They can wait forever if they need to, AMF means no Protection from Missiles or the likes. Cheap and efficient.

Stegyre
2010-11-10, 10:42 AM
Send a sneak to see where they are retreating after their battles.
Cast AMF below the exit.
Have a bunch of skeletal archers wait with readied actions to shoot anything coming out of the exit. They can wait forever if they need to, AMF means no Protection from Missiles or the likes. Cheap and efficient.

You are . . . not nice.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. :smallwink:

@OP: as already pointed out, there are many ways for a creative DM to thwart a Rope Trick.

The real question is, what's the real issue?

If the problem is the 15-minute adventuring day (all spell casters nova in the first encounter, then retreat to the Rope Trick to recharge for the next encounter), you can "defeat" the strategy by simply giving them a quest with a time limit: "The virginal princess has been kidnapped, and will be sacrificed upon the dark altar to Demogorgon at midnight tonight! Your quest is to save her, (and just to insure your prompt cooperation, the court wizard placed a geas on the PCs to insure they'd keep their end of the contract)."

If the problem is that they are always avoiding the bad guys by jumping into their interdimensional space, just arrange for some hot pursuit: while the spell itself is only a standard action, each character must climb up the rope. That takes time, and they won't have much, if any, defense while doing so.

If the problem is simply that you want them to be vulnerable while in their hidey-hole, as already pointed out: tracking and scent can locate where they "disappeared," assuming that location hasn't been identified by other means; Rope Trick is a low-level spell, and one would expect it be widely known among intelligent creatures in a magical world; See Invisibility is also low-level, and would be readily available to most intelligent creatures ("That's why the goblins tribe keeps an adept on the payroll."); finally, Dispel Magic and the Transdimensional Spell feat should both work, the first to disgorge the party from their redoubt; the second to fry them with a fireball even while still in it. Any big BBEG would have access to at least one, if not both, of these tools. (As transdimensional spell also allows one to attack ethereal and incorporeal creatures, it has ready utility at higher class levels and should be in the arsenal of a reasonably powerful opponent.)

PinkysBrain
2010-11-10, 11:03 AM
Intelligent items can get detect magic at will quite cheaply.

If they use it within an enemy base just have guard patrols equipped with such items ... after they have been found out you can ambush them, or simply have a large group of enemies demand their surrender. Have one of the guards shout something like "fools, didn't you think we'd notice a magic portal within our walls!" so they realise where they went wrong.

If they use it in the open field for a good nights rest to avoid random encounters ... just let them do it. Random encounters in the night are boring.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 11:10 AM
1. Someone casts dispel on the entrance.
2. Party ends up in Sigil.
3. .................
4. PROFIT!

Actually, the party would end up regurgitated onto the ground in front of the dispeller.

Babau demons are GREAT at patrolling the BBEG's lair for Rope Tricks. See invisibility and dispel magic at-will :smallsmile:

Myth
2010-11-10, 11:17 AM
You are . . . not nice.

Why thank you :smallbiggrin:

Jarawara
2010-11-10, 11:18 AM
Well, you could give them a ring. A special ring.
Give them an artifact-level ring (so it's immune to identify) that does something useful, but is cursed (so they can't take it off once they discover it's other function).
Make the other function Dimentional Anchor.

That's a good one! Here's another:

*~*~*

Give them... a Ring of Rope Trick Detection!

When this rare and powerful magic ring is worn, it gives the wearer the ability to detect the presence of the dimensional pocket as created by the spell Rope Trick. Furthermore, it will highlight the entryway to that pocket so that your allies and others can see it too. To detect the Rope Trick, simply climb inside the pocket dimension and it will glow for all to see...


Note: This ring doesn't actually detect *other* Rope Tricks, only the one you personally enter. But it does make that Rope Trick easy to spot for all your 'friends' who are pursuing close behind!

Tehnar
2010-11-10, 12:29 PM
Track them to the spot where they cast rope trick, and cast a area dispel in that place. Puff the spell ends and all the PCs are dumped out, take falling damage and end up prone.

Of course you can set up an ambush as well.

The same trick works for MMM and similar spells.

Or if the NPC's don't have access to dispel have them build traps under the location. Bonfires, poisoned spikes, angry hungry creatures, a boulder set to roll on them; the possibilities are endless.

Person_Man
2010-11-10, 12:30 PM
Simply put a time limiting factor on the plot. If you don't rescue the princess by midnight, she dies.

I would also add that ambushing your PCs in the middle of their rest once can interesting. Ambushing them repeatedly just makes them take more elaborate counter measures. Instead of using Rope Trick, they use Teleport. Or they hire NPCs to set up a perimiter guard. Or they set up an elaborate series of traps. Or whatever. The end result is that you're just "taxing" their resources so that they can rest and restore their spells. Doing so doesn't really make the game more fun for them. It just means that they have fewer resources for combat and other stuff which they probably find more enjoyable.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 12:37 PM
I would expect one or two layers of precaution to be reasonable for a BBEG. For example, Babau patrols aren't farfetched for any high-powered enemy capable of enlisting lower plane help, or a few cultists with Transdimensional Spell. But once the party finds a way around these precautions, don't keep coming up with more; let them enjoy the fruits of their ingenuity.

Of course, it's just as reasonable for the big bad to be Teevoing you as you wander his halls, but then he can just warp in and splatter you all anyway; no fun in that...

mangosta71
2010-11-10, 12:37 PM
One of the rooms in the lower dungeon was a mad wizard's laboratory. His experiments turned the whole floor into a Wild Magic zone. Of course, the party doesn't find out about that until their spells start going awry.

faceroll
2010-11-10, 02:12 PM
As title mentions,

I am looking for easy or fun ways to bypass a party's camp protections.

Usually they use rope trick,that's why its mentioned above, it seems to be better than the higher lvl
"rest protectors".

So i am asking for something that does not yells outright
"I AM BYPASSING YOUR BARRIERS BECAUSE I AM A DM!"

i would prefer some elegance:smallwink:

Any ideas?

Unless the party wizard has extend spell, sudden extend, or a rod of extend (lesser), he can't be using rope trick to hide out in for a full rest and spell recharge until 10th level.

If you do have a way to extend, you can't hide in rope trick for a full 8 hours+spell prep until CL6th (typically 6th level).

Between levels 6 and 10, there are plenty of monsters (especially outsiders) that get true seeing or see invisibility at will. These monsters could be natural denizens of wherever the PCs are, enemies they have to fight, or creatures that have been bound by planar binding or called with planar ally (both 4th level spells will get you the right devil or celestial that can see them).

Jack_Simth
2010-11-10, 06:42 PM
Not sure where but I'm relatively certain Word of God said Rope Trick didn't trigger a multi-dimensional crisis due to extradimensional space.It's in the FAQ. Basically, the recommendation was to ignore the line (that was actually how it was worded).

Not true. The only interactions that cause problems are portable hole inside bag of holding and vice versa. Yes, rope trick says it could be "hazardous", but as it never bothers to define hazardous, there are no mechanical effects for taking a bag of holding into a rope trick and you're entirely in the clear.
Sort of.

By necessity, the rules as written don't define a rather lot of things. They don't, for instance, define the number of fingers on a normal elven hand. They don't, for instance, define what happens if you're still in a Magnificent Mansion when the spell expires (Rope Trick does, Magnificent Mansion doesn't). They don't, for instance, define what happens if you're in a too-small enclosure when a Reduce Person spell wears off. And so on. There are a LOT of holes in the rules of this nature - by necessity; the writers can't reasonably be expected to think of every contingency, and you wouldn't be reasonably expected to be able to carry the rulebook if they had.

What does the DM do in such instances? The most common methods are:
1) Extrapolate from existing, similar rules
2) Go by what happens in real life.
3) Pick the one that seems most fun / most balanced / to best serve the plot at the time.

So a normal elven hand has four fingers and a thumb (Method 2 - human hands have four fingers and a thumb). If you're in a Magnificent Mansion when the duration runs out, you're expelled (Method 1: Extrapolating from what happens with Rope Trick). If your Reduce Person spell wears off when you're in a too-small enclosure, you make a strength check to burst the enclosure; failure means you're harmlessly contained (Method 1: Extrapolating from Enlarge Person). And so on.

In the case of a Portable Hole or a Bag of Holding in a Rope Trick, it's defined as "Hazardous", but no specific consequence is given. There's a hole in the rules. Method 2 isn't applicable, so some DM's will go with Method 1... and the only existing, similar rule is the portable hole / bag of holding interaction.




If you do have a way to extend, you can't hide in rope trick for a full 8 hours+spell prep until CL6th (typically 6th level).6th for a Sorcerer; 5th for a Wizard (CL 5, Extended, lasts 10 hours). And, of course, it goes the other way without Extend: 9th for a Sorcerer, 10th for a Wizard (As the Sorcerer only needs 15 minutes to prepare spells, while the Wizard needs a full hour).

Funkyodor
2010-11-10, 07:09 PM
I kinda equate sleeping in a rope trick to sleeping in a giant semi-firm bag. It's ok, as long as everyone likes sleeping in a giant pile.

There's always tracking by scent as previously mentioned. Detect magic to discover the faint aura. Dust of Appearance / Faerie Fire / Glitterdust to expose the invisible window. Spellcraft checks to know it's Rope Trick spell. Then the hilarity of the Dispel Magic PC dogpile or Transdimensional Spell AoE or Dispel Magic followed by Black Tentacles. Man, thats quite a nightmare to wake up to.

Jack_Simth
2010-11-10, 07:28 PM
Dispel Magic followed by Black Tentacles.Other way around. You cast Black Tentacles first, so they don't have time to react while you're casting the other spell.

Aharon
2010-11-11, 05:05 AM
@Dispelling the Rope Trick

This doesn't actually work without Transdimensional Spell: Rope trick has

Target: One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long

so to dispel the spell, you have to either target the rope, or cast an area dispel that affects it. As the rope will probably not be left dangling, but take up one of the spots inside the rope trick, you need a transdimensional dispel.

@Countermeasures
Another countermeasure are Mindflayers and other creatures with plane shift as an SLA. In Dimensional Lock, Plane Shift is defined as extradimensional travel, and the space created by the various hideout spells (Rope trick, MMM etc.) are called extradimensional. It stands to reason that they can be reached via a Plane Shift.
It needs to be an SLA-planeshift because the focus for the spell version might be very hard to come by.
Bonus: The uncertainty of plane shift is averted - it just can't miss by 5*1d100 miles in a space that isn't that big.

WinWin
2010-11-11, 05:47 AM
The rope may be the target of the spell, but the rope is still attached to the portal.

You need trandimensional effects to bypass the portal.

The portal only needs to be detected in order to be targeted.

There are no partial dispels. Dispelling the portal removes the entire effect.

Aharon
2010-11-11, 06:27 AM
I think it is helpful to quote the spell descriptions, to avoid misunderstandings:

Rope trick

Rope Trick
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
Material Component

Powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.

Dispel Magic

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:
Targeted Dispel

One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.
Area Dispel

When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.
Counterspell

When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.

So,
1) there is no portal, but an "extradimensional interface", a window. It is not defined with the game specific term "spell effect".
2) Dispel Magic can be used to "end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell."
3) To support my argument that the interface is not a game-mechanical "spell effect", such effects are typically clearly labelled, for example in Summon Monster (Effect: One summoned creature). Summoned monsters are also cited in Dispel Magic as a spell effect that can be dispelled.

=>The only way to end a rope trick is to end the ongoing spell (Rope Trick) that has been cast on an object (Rope). To do so, one needs transdimensional spell, because the rope is in an extradimensional space.

WinWin
2010-11-11, 08:26 AM
Unless the window is targeted.

Regardless of the positioning of the rope, the window is always present, even if it is not penetrable. That is great against a spell like fireball. It is not a defence against a use of dispel magic. Dispel is all or nothing. Either all of a spell ceases or none of it does.

Invisibility and positioning is the windows only defence against being targeted. As an object created by the Rope Tick, it is a valid target for the spell. By the same token, a cleric walking past with an active AMF will temporarily suppress the effect. Much lulz as the wizard gets locked out of his own rope trick, because when it reappears, the rope will still be inside...

For the standard caster attempting to defeat a rope trick, they do not even need to see the window. Detect Magic and an area dispel will suffice.

sdream
2010-11-11, 02:47 PM
There have been threads about this before. A 2nd level spell should not be an unassailable fortress, but rather a convenient increase in safety.

Those who try to get extremely specific and rules lawyerly about the rope being the only way to get in or out, or dispel the effect should be reminded that the spell does not actually specify a way for ANY creature to enter the extradimensional space, or exit it before the ending of the spell.

(Only that the rope can be climbed by one person at a time and the top is anchored on an extradimensional space).

The version of the spell which creates in unassailable, impregnable fortress for rules lawyers is useless as the fortress it creates is impregnable to the castor well.

I assume the version actually practiced and learned by mages is a less strict version that creates a hidden, comfortable, and merely difficult to access area, for both the caster and passerby.

Psyren
2010-11-11, 03:30 PM
There have been threads about this before. A 2nd level spell should not be an unassailable fortress, but rather a convenient increase in safety.

While I agree with you on the specific point that a Rope Trick should be dispellable, I disagree that a lower-level spell should always fold to a higher one in a general sense.

I rather like D&D's unique brand of rock-paper-scissors. Wings of Cover can block Disjunction. Silence can shut down Blasphemy. Protection from Evil suppresses Dominate Monster. And of course Dispel Magic can take down much higher-level spells. Lower spells capable of trumping higher are woven throughout the system; they add a tactical texture that forces spellcasters to pay attention to what they cast, rather than just how high it is.

JonestheSpy
2010-11-11, 03:37 PM
Some other elements that make Rope Trick less than ideal that haven't been mentioned yet:

There's no light inside the space, aside from what shines up through the portal. If the players are in a dark space (like y'know, a dungeon), then they will be fumbling about in complete darkness, unless they want the light to shine down through the portal.

People mention tracking by smell often, but don't forget there's nothing that stops sound from being heard below. Since the players can't tell if anyone is walking around the area or not, they're going to have to be absolutely silent if they want to be sure they aren't overheard. No eating, no clerics praying for spells, no talking, not much moving at all if you're in armor - and how much do you want to bet that in a party of four to six adventurers at least one of them snores?

And if your campaign is in a high-magic world, then people are going to know about Rope Trick and plan accordingly. If a bunch of tracks suddenly stop, it's going to be one of the first things people think of. Wave a long spear around in the air of a twelve-foot high room. If the tip vanishes, there's your portal.

Psyren
2010-11-11, 04:00 PM
There's no light inside the space, aside from what shines up through the portal. If the players are in a dark space (like y'know, a dungeon), then they will be fumbling about in complete darkness, unless they want the light to shine down through the portal.

That's trivial; Darkvision, Low-light vision, Blacklight, joining hands field-trip-style.
By the time the PCs are high enough level to actually sleep in the RT they're bound to have some way of getting around the obstacle of a dim area.


People mention tracking by smell often, but don't forget there's nothing that stops sound from being heard below. Since the players can't tell if anyone is walking around the area or not, they're going to have to be absolutely silent if they want to be sure they aren't overheard. No eating, no clerics praying for spells, no talking, not much moving at all if you're in armor - and how much do you want to bet that in a party of four to six adventurers at least one of them snores?

Regarding clerics, there's no rule that states they have to pray out loud for spells. (Or above a whisper.)

For the rest (even assuming sound does carry through the interdimensional interface) unless the party is yelling at the top of their lungs, a baddy would have to be almost on top of them to hear chomping.

There's no rules for snoring either - inventing some just so the PCs can be caught is thinly-veiled DM-screw.



And if your campaign is in a high-magic world, then people are going to know about Rope Trick and plan accordingly. If a bunch of tracks suddenly stop, it's going to be one of the first things people think of. Wave a long spear around in the air of a twelve-foot high room. If the tip vanishes, there's your portal.

Now, you're onto something with the spear (though the interface is invisible, so there's at least a 50% chance of missing it with each poke even if you know where it is.) The interface blocks spells but says nothing about physical objects like arrows. So the party would just have to (a) use RT in a taller room (the rope can go up to 30 feet) or set a watch who can rouse the others just as they would with a normal campsite.

Gorilla2038
2010-11-11, 04:26 PM
Simply put a time limiting factor on the plot. If you don't rescue the princess by midnight, she dies.

I would also add that ambushing your PCs in the middle of their rest once can interesting. Ambushing them repeatedly just makes them take more elaborate counter measures. Instead of using Rope Trick, they use Teleport. Or they hire NPCs to set up a perimiter guard. Or they set up an elaborate series of traps. Or whatever. The end result is that you're just "taxing" their resources so that they can rest and restore their spells. Doing so doesn't really make the game more fun for them. It just means that they have fewer resources for combat and other stuff which they probably find more enjoyable.

Says you sir! I personally enjoy leaving company sized fortress with imbedded trees and a full stable every where i go!

nedz
2010-11-11, 05:58 PM
One interesting spell which might cause amusement is Seal Portal [SpC] Sor/Wiz 6th. Have someone sneak up and place it upon the 'portal', ideally without the party noticing. This might depend upon interpretation but it could stop them leaving the Rope Trick, and when the spell expires they find themselves outside of the multiverse. I'm not sure how I would play that, but it could be hilarious.:smallbiggrin:

Jack_Simth
2010-11-11, 08:07 PM
One interesting spell which might cause amusement is Seal Portal [SpC] Sor/Wiz 6th. Have someone sneak up and place it upon the 'portal', ideally without the party noticing. This might depend upon interpretation but it could stop them leaving the Rope Trick, and when the spell expires they find themselves outside of the multiverse. I'm not sure how I would play that, but it could be hilarious.:smallbiggrin:
That'd be 'dump them on the Astral', as that's the space between planes.

Endarire
2010-11-12, 02:06 AM
What's so bad about letting the group use its rope trick? It probably means they're at full strength between fights, letting the DM do more.

Endarire
2010-11-12, 02:14 AM
What's so bad about letting the group use its rope trick? It probably means they're at full strength between fights, letting the DM do more.

faceroll
2010-11-12, 02:58 AM
What if you were able to set up some sort of obstacle such that when Rope Trick ended, all the players got shunted into magma or squished in a brick wall?


What's so bad about letting the group use its rope trick? It probably means they're at full strength between fights, letting the DM do more.

Because it can allow players to repeatedly trivialize certain sorts of encounters and requires DMs to come up with some pretty contrived stuff.

Endarire
2010-11-12, 04:18 PM
Such stricks worth both ways, for if the PCs can do it, so can NPCs.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 04:27 PM
What if you were able to set up some sort of obstacle such that when Rope Trick ended, all the players got shunted into magma or squished in a brick wall?

You can certainly set traps below the aperture if you can locate it, or even surround it with a welcome committee to greet the sleepers. Just keep in mind that while you can't see in (even with see invisibility etc.) they can still see out.


Because it can allow players to repeatedly trivialize certain sorts of encounters and requires DMs to come up with some pretty contrived stuff.

If the players have time to snooze in your dungeon, it's because the pace isn't fast enough to force them to hurry. How is that their fault?

Doppelganger
2010-11-12, 05:10 PM
If this is in a dungeon, and the NPCs can locate it, why can't they just collapse the room the rope trick is in? It wouldn't kill them, as nothing can get through the portal, but it'll make them blow a plane shift (teleport doesn't let you move across planes, does it now?) to get out of the rope trick, (if they figure out there's anything wrong, that is) or get randomly shunted out to the nearest empty space (which just happens to be directly above, say, a pit of lava) or entombed in the rubble, depending on what the DM thinks the rules for this sort of thing are.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 05:33 PM
You can do that too. But there's nothing keeping the PCs from setting a watch and sleeping in shifts (rather like they would with an ordinary campsite) and the on-duty schlub rousing his fellows with "Hey guys, wake up! I think they're doing something to the walls!"

Now, if all the PCs nod off just because they're in the safety of a pocket-plane and don't take precautions, they deserve what they get in this regard.

busterswd
2010-11-12, 05:45 PM
Are they dungeon crawling and resting between every encounter, and if so, are the monsters in the dungeon organized at all? Do they have some way of communicating?

Eventually, the minions in the dungeon are going to notice something is awry when patrols and guards in specific areas, leading in a certain direction, keep disappearing and dying; at some point, someone is bound to notice at the very least there are a heap of looted corpses lying around and no culprits immediately available. It wouldn't be unthinkable for them to heighten security around that area, or even start setting traps there. If one of them had enough spellcraft and one of the unnoticed survivors noticed the dangling rope shimmying up into thin air, they could set even more specific precautions (false floor/spikes beneath the rope, etc.)

Basically, the more often they use this trick, the more likely SOMEONE will notice and be able to understand what's happening. You'll be able to set up quite a memorable unpleasant experience for them as soon as they exit.

snoopy13a
2010-11-12, 05:49 PM
As title mentions,

I am looking for easy or fun ways to bypass a party's camp protections.

Usually they use rope trick,that's why its mentioned above, it seems to be better than the higher lvl
"rest protectors".

So i am asking for something that does not yells outright
"I AM BYPASSING YOUR BARRIERS BECAUSE I AM A DM!"

i would prefer some elegance:smallwink:

Any ideas?

If the players use rope trick in a dungeon after NPCs are altered of their presence you could:

1) Have the NPCs flee the dungeon along with all of the treasure
2) Have the NPCs set up an ambush

Alternatively, I suppose you could simply remove the spell from your game.