Psionic magic transparency -psicraft/spellcraft etc

[jpreem]

Most of the time it is suggested that Psionics and Magical effects shoudl work on each other. ( AMF, dispel etc.). In fact in my mind it makes it look like that Psionics is just another type of magic - like Divine and Arcane.
How would it look to you both fluff and mechanics wise to remove - use psionic device and psicraft - and say that spellcraft and use magic device will do the trick.
I'm considering this option in my campaign.
Mechanically it would probably most help out rogues and other such UMD users.
About fluff I'm a bit torn - well it's just another type of magic. But maybe I'd like to keep it something a bit more hmm how do you say it exotic. So maybe it would actually be good to have psicraft - so my players will have to guess what the hell just hit them ( none of them is psi-user)

[dsmiles]

I prefer to keep the full-on "Psionics are Different" rule, but if you're playing "Psionics are the Same," I would recommend combining those skills. UPD/UMD and Psicraft/Spellcraft would have so much overlap in a "Psionics are the Same" setting, that having points in both would be a waste of points.

Maybe it's just me, but "Psionics are the Same" = pretty boring. There's no surprises when the psionic monster jumps out at the party and they have no power resistance. There's no "WTF?!" moment where the characters are horrified that they may be unable to fight this thing.

[Psyren]

Psionics are Different can indeed be more exciting, but it requires a lot of work by the DM to keep things balanced.

I personally like partial transparency, similar to what Mysteries (shadow magic) enjoy. Sure you can dispel a psionic effect, but it's going to be harder because you don't fully understand it. (Unless you're a Cerebremancer or something anyway.)

[Glimbur]

The way I generally run things is that UMD and UPD are different, and Spellcraft and Psicraft are different. However, SR = PR and Dispel can Dispel psi or spells equally well. This means that the party doesn't necessarily understand psionic opponents but they can counter them. Provided they just start throwing dispels, anyway... psionics tend not to have a "tell" that they just cast something, so you might not know to dispel.

[faceroll]

The way I generally run things is that UMD and UPD are different, and Spellcraft and Psicraft are different. However, SR = PR and Dispel can Dispel psi or spells equally well. This means that the party doesn't necessarily understand psionic opponents but they can counter them. Provided they just start throwing dispels, anyway... psionics tend not to have a "tell" that they just cast something, so you might not know to dispel.

Same here, and for the same reasons.

[Psyren]

psionics tend not to have a "tell" that they just cast something, so you might not know to dispel.

The displays are pretty easy to notice, and should be communicated to the players unless the psionicist in question is perfectly suppressing all of them. Now, the PCs might not know what they mean without metagaming, but it would be pretty hard to notice some dude's eyes glowing, an ectoplasmic sheen covering everything 5 feet around some guy, or a smell emanating from a person that makes one of you think of grandma's apple pie and the other of mom's pot roast.

[faceroll]

The displays are pretty easy to notice, and should be communicated to the players unless the psionicist in question is perfectly suppressing all of them. Now, the PCs might not know what they mean without metagaming, but it would be pretty hard to notice some dude's eyes glowing, an ectoplasmic sheen covering everything 5 feet around some guy, or a smell emanating from a person that makes one of you think of grandma's apple pie and the other of mom's pot roast.

Those can all be suppressed with a concentration check.

[Psyren]

Those can all be suppressed with a concentration check.

Why yes, I believe I mentioned that.

[hangedman1984]

The rule our group generally uses is, if there is a distinction between arcane magic and divine magic, then there is a distinction between magic and psionics.

[bloodtide]

It depends how far you take it.

If you just make psionics 'different' in the way that they ignore magic, then psionics will rule your game.


If you go the full blown route....both psionics and magic ignore each other 100%, then things get weird. Each type can slay the other no problem. Even a weak psionic character can kill an epic dragon, and so forth. And pisionic mosnters can be killed by weak mages.

You'd have to go through and add PR or SR to each creature.

And decide how everything interacts. Does a wall of force block psionic energy attacks? Are psionic characters more protected vs charm magic.

It's a ton of work, and the only way to re-balance everything, is to make everything thing just like it is with psionics and magic are the same. A magical dragon would need equal SR and PR, for example.

[dsmiles]

You'd have to go through and add PR or SR to each creature.

The XPH references this very situation. They recommend that things that have SR get PR = 1/2 their SR, and vice versa.

[Psyren]

The XPH references this very situation. They recommend that things that have SR get PR = 1/2 their SR, and vice versa.

Indeed, that is the "partial transparency" option (and one that I actually find pretty flavorful.)

[dsmiles]

Indeed, that is the "partial transparency" option (and one that I actually find pretty flavorful.)

I guess you could call my version "partial transparency" then. I throw that one rule in with the "Psionics is Different" since I don't want the psionic creatures (or players, I'm not prejudiced) to be completely invincible (or unstoppable) vs. magic-using creatures (or players).

[Mordaenor]

My only real issue with playing "Psionics are completely different from Magic" comes from a the point of: if that's true, then what is it about Arcane and Divine Magic that makes them so similar to each other, and Psionics so different. If we have three different ways of altering the laws of reality by force of will, they ought to all be equally similar to, or equally different from each other.

[Psyren]

My only real issue with playing "Psionics are completely different from Magic" comes from a the point of: if that's true, then what is it about Arcane and Divine Magic that makes them so similar to each other, and Psionics so different. If we have three different ways of altering the laws of reality by force of will, they ought to all be equally similar to, or equally different from each other.

The primary difference fluffwise is that psionics are more internal and magic is more external. This is why magic has more healing, buffs and other sociable effects that can be spread around. It is also why (until the debacle that was "Divine Mind" anyway) no deity or similar force could "turn off" your psionics short of plopping a NPF on you.

CPsi blurred that line considerably; one of the reasons it is disliked.

[bloodtide]

The trick is to make Psionic's different without the problems.

For example, a fire sheild spell should block all fire, arcane or divine or psionic. The same way a fire shield power should block all fire, aracane or divine or psionic.

Though a lot of people only do the 'Psionic Superior' side. Where, a psionic bolt of lightning can go right through a magical wall of force. But they don't do the magic lightning bolt that goes right through the psionic sheild.

[Mordaenor]

Yeah, I understand that, but I guess my arguement is that is Psionics are powerless againt Wizards, and vice versa, by the same logic, shouldn't Wizards and Clerics also be powerless against each other? And if one argues that their power is, in fact, the same, where's the logic in have separate classes with different spell lists?

[subject42]

One thing that I've tried was that any effect, when cast or manifested, would apply to either psionics or magic, depending on which one you picked when you did so.

For example, detect magic would be either detect magic or detect psionics, depending on which you picked. Shield could stop magic missiles or the equivalent level 1 power, but not both.

It worked pretty well in psionics-heavy games.

[Psyren]

And if one argues that their power is, in fact, the same, where's the logic in have separate classes with different spell lists?

Even with full transparency the different casters have different strengths. Psionics is not as good at summoning, but much better at blasting. Psionics is better at temporal manipulation (action-related powers.) Psionics is worse at healing and buffing. Psionics can't do illusions at all (there is no psionic invisibility for instance). Psionics is better at mind-control.

Psionics has some very unique effects as well. Things like retraining on the fly (Reformation), rearranging their senses (Synesthete), dividing and combining the powers of individuals (Schism, Fusion, Fission, Metaconcert) etc.

[bloodtide]

For example, detect magic would be either detect magic or detect psionics, depending on which you picked. Shield could stop magic missiles or the equivalent level 1 power, but not both.

It worked pretty well in psionics-heavy games.


How did it work with Spellcaters/psionic users? Your 'psionic only sheild' blocks my power, so I just use a spell that ignores your shield.

And you still get the 'if I'm in a anti-psionic feild, I can me killed by magic' problem.

[subject42]

How did it work with Spellcaters/psionic users? Your 'psionic only sheild' blocks my power, so I just use a spell that ignores your shield.

We only ever had one player use that variety of multiclassing and the fact that he was losing quite a few caster/manifester levels kept the problem from getting out of hand.


And you still get the 'if I'm in a anti-psionic feild, I can me killed by magic' problem.

Generally the players would start by defaulting to one protection, then re-casting the spell or power if it wasn't the right one. It wasn't an overly long campaign, so there was never a scenario where both types of casting were being used in the same encounter.

[JonestheSpy]

I personally like partial transparency, similar to what Mysteries (shadow magic) enjoy. Sure you can dispel a psionic effect, but it's going to be harder because you don't fully understand it. (Unless you're a Cerebremancer or something anyway.)

About this. Kind of a fuzzy, case-by-case thing.

[TheEmerged]

We tried several different levels of transparency, and ended up going with a "two levels of difference" transparency. That is, a psion can Negate Magic but the spell is treated as being 2 levels higher than it is, and a mage can Dispel Psionics but the power is treated as being 2 levels higher than it is. Similarly Spellcraft and Psicraft were different skills but working the "other side" was a -4 penalty.

[jpreem]

I think i like this idea, psi/spellcraft and umd/upd are different things but you can substitute with a -4 penalty. ( Kind of like craft alchemy can substitute craft poison.)

[Psyren]

I think i like this idea, psi/spellcraft and umd/upd are different things but you can substitute with a -4 penalty. ( Kind of like craft alchemy can substitute craft poison.)

It's the same with shadow magic vs. regular magic: -4 penalty to identify/dispel/counter.