Craft skills in beginning games.

[druid91]

Ok think about it, you can get enough Iron for two greatswords for less than the cost of a greatsword. Craft them sell one and you have more money. than you originally started with.

[WarKitty]

...that's the idea of craft skills? Are you saying this is a problem?

[druid91]

No.. I'm saying I didn't realize this until recently..:smallredface:

I always thought of them as a spellcaster thing, for making golems and magic items at higher levels.

[WarKitty]

No, part of the idea of craft checks is that they're how ordinary people make money. It's just that most adventurers obviously don't want to spend their time making swords.

P.S. I've had good luck with 1 rank in woodworking building me a masterwork quarterstaff for free.

[Yuki Akuma]

You can't build a masterwork quarterstaff for free - the materials still cost 300 gp.

You can build a normal quarterstaff for free, though.

[Duke of URL]

The thing to note, however, is that making a greatsword is DC 15, with any result of 10 or lower ruining half of the raw materials. A 1st-level martial type, who likely does not have masterwork tools, is looking at maybe a +5 check (4 ranks, +1 Int) unless (s)he has a racial bonus. That means a 1/4 chance of failure.

Combining that with the fact that the sale price for items is 1/2 their value, and most of the "profit margin" disappears.

[WarKitty]

Ok apparently I just misread stuff. Not surprising for my first game.

Although 600gp for a masterwork quarterstaff just seems kind of silly.

[druid91]

The thing to note, however, is that making a greatsword is DC 15, with any result of 10 or lower ruining half of the raw materials. A 1st-level martial type, who likely does not have masterwork tools, is looking at maybe a +5 check (4 ranks, +1 Int) unless (s)he has a racial bonus. That means a 1/4 chance of failure.

Combining that with the fact that the sale price for items is 1/2 their value, and most of the "profit margin" disappears.

I was under the impression that magic items sell for half their value. Otherwise why can't I have a greatsword for 25 GP.

[Heliomance]

The thing to note, however, is that making a greatsword is DC 15, with any result of 10 or lower ruining half of the raw materials. A 1st-level martial type, who likely does not have masterwork tools, is looking at maybe a +5 check (4 ranks, +1 Int) unless (s)he has a racial bonus. That means a 1/4 chance of failure.

Combining that with the fact that the sale price for items is 1/2 their value, and most of the "profit margin" disappears.

Take 10. Done.

[Yuki Akuma]

Ok apparently I just misread stuff. Not surprising for my first game.

Although 600gp for a masterwork quarterstaff just seems kind of silly.

Quarterstaffs are double weapons. 600 gp is cheap for a masterwork double weapon.

A masterwork club costs 300 gp.

[WarKitty]

Quarterstaffs are double weapons. 600 gp is cheap for a masterwork double weapon.

A masterwork club costs 300 gp.

Still, a well-done quarterstaff costs more than a complicated weapon such as a crossbow?

Just one of my pet peeves. I can't stand clubs because they're too inelegant, but my casters can't effectively use both ends of the staff anyways so why pay for it when you don't have a lot of money?

[Yuki Akuma]

If you're a caster why are you buying a masterwork quarterstaff?

Unless it's to make it into a magic staff, but then money is no object.

[WarKitty]

If you're a caster why are you buying a masterwork quarterstaff?

Unless it's to make it into a magic staff, but then money is no object.

Because it was a solo game and I needed *something* to hit with once I ran through my 3 spells?

[Yuki Akuma]

Crossbow!

Cheaper, more damage, ranged.

[El Dorado]

There's also some investment of time, isn't there? Crafting might be a path to profit but it's a long, windy road.

[WarKitty]

Crossbow!

Cheaper, more damage, ranged.

No meatshield to keep the bad guy from running up to you with an axe.

Edit: Back on topic, I would presume the reason you typically can only sell for half price is because you are selling to a shopkeeper who wants to make a profit by selling at full price. So if you own your own shop and can get customers to it you can sell at full price.

Setting up your own shop however requires a decent investment. More likely you'd contract with a shopkeeper to provide him swords to sell. Under this arrangement I would peg the amount you could sell for at 3/4 or so. You probably have to rent your forge, so deduct that from your profits. You also likely have to pay rent for your room and board. So you *can* make a profit but it's not going to be stupendous.

[Yuki Akuma]

The same can be said if you're wielding a staff. But if you have a crossbow you can at least take a five foot step and shoot at him.

And you can shoot at him when he's eighty feet away, too.

And all Wizards want Dexterity. They don't care about Strength.

[RndmNumGen]

Quarterstaffs are double weapons. 600 gp is cheap for a masterwork double weapon.

A masterwork club costs 300 gp.

Wouldn't it only cost 200 gp to craft a masterwork quarterstaff, since the materials only cost 1/3 the list price?

[LibraryOgre]

Still, a well-done quarterstaff costs more than a complicated weapon such as a crossbow?

Just one of my pet peeves. I can't stand clubs because they're too inelegant, but my casters can't effectively use both ends of the staff anyways so why pay for it when you don't have a lot of money?

One of the things I did with 3e was change the flat additional cost of masterwork into a percentage. Masterwork weapons are 300% additional, so a longsword runs about 60gp for a non-magical +1; masterwork leather runs an additional 150%, or 12.5gp.

A lot cheaper, but masterwork doesn't really matter beyond character creation.

[Duke of URL]

Edit: Back on topic, I would presume the reason you typically can only sell for half price is because you are selling to a shopkeeper who wants to make a profit by selling at full price. So if you own your own shop and can get customers to it you can sell at full price.

Setting up your own shop however requires a decent investment. More likely you'd contract with a shopkeeper to provide him swords to sell. Under this arrangement I would peg the amount you could sell for at 3/4 or so. You probably have to rent your forge, so deduct that from your profits. You also likely have to pay rent for your room and board. So you *can* make a profit but it's not going to be stupendous.

Exactly. If you want to run your own shop, I'd also advise investing in Appraise and Profession skills. But then again, the game isn't called "Crafters & Cashiers", and discussion of D&D economics always wind up degenerating way past the suspension of disbelief point.

[WarKitty]

The same can be said if you're wielding a staff. But if you have a crossbow you can at least take a five foot step and shoot at him.

And you can shoot at him when he's eighty feet away, too.

And all Wizards want Dexterity. They don't care about Strength.

Hey, didn't say I wasn't using a ranged weapon as well! It was actually a druid and not a wizard - yes the druid does come with a meatshield. No that doesn't help when the skeleton walks around your companion to hit you. Or when you're trying to deal with a pair of goblins coming at you from different directions. And 5-foot stepping to an area that doesn't put you in AoO range all the time means you have a DM that's not very creative with his layouts.

[kyoryu]

Ok think about it, you can get enough Iron for two greatswords for less than the cost of a greatsword. Craft them sell one and you have more money. than you originally started with.

... and you're crafting them in which forge?

[AmberVael]

One of the things I did with 3e was change the flat additional cost of masterwork into a percentage. Masterwork weapons are 300% additional, so a longsword runs about 60gp for a non-magical +1; masterwork leather runs an additional 150%, or 12.5gp.

A lot cheaper, but masterwork doesn't really matter beyond character creation.

So 300%... of 0 gold...

Gee, I'm going to just pick up this stick here and call it masterwork. How's that sound? Okay! :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

So 300%... of 0 gold...

Gee, I'm going to just pick up this stick here and call it masterwork. How's that sound? Okay! :smallbiggrin:

*shrug* It's loopy, but... What does it matter in a game where MW items aren't already banned/tightly restricted?

[LibraryOgre]

So 300%... of 0 gold...

Gee, I'm going to just pick up this stick here and call it masterwork. How's that sound? Okay! :smallbiggrin:

Sure. You now have a masterwork staff.

Truthfully, though, I disagree with quarterstaves being classed at 0gp. A quarterstaff is frequently iron-bound (to keep it from splintering quite as easily), and at least minimally worked (smoothed to reduce splinters and knots). It's not expensive work, by any means, but an actually-balanced staff is not just a matter of grabbing a random fallen tree branch.

Clubs? Sure, you can make a functional, versatile club from a hunk of firewood. But a masterwork club is more like turning out a baseball bat... good grip on the handle, well-balanced for swinging.

I'd more price them in the realm of 3-5 silvers for a regular "club" or "quarterstaff", with "improvised club" or "improvised staff" being free, but not able to be masterworked. Still not expensive to get a well-made one... masterwork will cost you about 12-20 silver... but not 0gp. If you go with that, a 1st level craftsman can make a single masterwork quarterstaff in a day (15 average check * 12 DC in copper is 18 silver), or 3-5 regular staves of decent quality. If he's making crafting a career (and thus has the Skill Focus), he can almost manage two masterwork in a single day (216 copper), and will be able to around 3rd level (which, by my "Level equal to number in 10's column of age" for human NPCs, makes him around 30), or at 2nd level if he has masterwork tools. Masterwork tools, in this case, would probably include a simple lathe, which were available in a single-person, pedal operated, version in the middle ages.

Selling 12 Masterwork Quarterstaves a week (for 20 silver each*) makes for 228 silver a week (2 per day, except a single day off, minus 1/3rd the raw materials cost... 1 silver for enough wood from which to select a good stave), which isn't too bad of an income for a regular person. If he doesn't have masterwork tools, and has to rely on unskilled labor for someone to turn the lathe while he works, you're looking at 222 (because you're not paying that slackard to turn a lathe on your day off).

RAW, yeah, with that change, everyone can own a masterwork quarterstaff. But the other option says that buying a masterwork stick is equivalent to buying two light warhorses, or a heavy warhorse and a riding horse. Or two potions that can each cure 2d8+3 damage. I think 2 gold for a really well-made stick makes a lot more sense than 300... which, incidentally, translates into almost a month's work for an artisan to make a good hittin' stick.

*Technically, the staves should be 40 silver, since both ends are masterworked, but that is also something I disagree with.

[Marnath]

I might be missing something Mark, but if they're worth 3-5 silvers each, and you add 300% for masterwork... doesn't that equal 9-15 silver, not 12-20? O.o

*edit: duhhh, thats added to the original price...:smallredface:

Also, I love this idea, works much better than a flat rate for masterwork. Do you have a similar system for special materials? I've always thought it was absurd that a dagger and a fullblade made of adamantite are the same extra price.

[LibraryOgre]

I might be missing something Mark, but if they're worth 3-5 silvers each, and you add 300% for masterwork... doesn't that equal 9-15 silver, not 12-20? O.o

*edit: duhhh, thats added to the original price...:smallredface:

Also, I love this idea, works much better than a flat rate for masterwork. Do you have a similar system for special materials? I've always thought it was absurd that a dagger and a fullblade made of adamantite are the same extra price.

Haven't worked that out, but I would say special materials cost is determined by weight, rather than by item type. 2e ran it as a multiplier to the actual cost (gold armor worsened your AC by 4, doubled the weight, and tripled the cost, on top of the cost of the metal). In 3e, I'd probably require special tools to work many of the special materials (requiring an adamantine hammer to work adamantine, for example), thus upping the cost overall. I'd also increase the cost of raw materials, without affecting the "build price" of the item. Building a suit of Adamantine Full plate means your effective "build price" is still only 6,000gp (the same as any masterwork full plate), but instead of needing to pay 2000 for the raw materials (1/3rd), you're looking at 10,000.

Current way is simpler, surely, but I like a bit more accuracy if the system is going to be that crunchy.

[Marnath]

Yeah, thats what I was thinking, value per pound. I tried to derive what that would be from the prices listed for the various armors and weapon, but I suck at math. I was hoping someone (I.E. you:smalltongue:) had already ciphered that one out.

Just one nitpick: if it takes adamantite tools to work with adamantite, how did you make the tools themselves? o.o

[Coidzor]

Just one nitpick: if it takes adamantite tools to work with adamantite, how did you make the tools themselves? o.o

A wizard with fabricate that wanted to leave it to a minion?

[FelixG]

Yeah, thats what I was thinking, value per pound. I tried to derive what that would be from the prices listed for the various armors and weapon, but I suck at math. I was hoping someone (I.E. you:smalltongue:) had already ciphered that one out.

Just one nitpick: if it takes adamantite tools to work with adamantite, how did you make the tools themselves? o.o

you have a bit of unrefined adamantine in your hand and you painstakingly work the other adamantine with it until the tools are done then use the tools to make a more effective something out of your ol hunk of rock.

at worst you will have a -2 to crafting the tools for unfavorable conditions :smallcool:

[Synapse]

Last i checked hot iron is softer than cold iron. Smelting adamantine shouldn't require previous adamantine tools, it's an easy handwave there.


I haven't seen much foreground work with crafting for adventuring characters. It generally accounts for some cheap ammo mid-travels, assisting the castle's soldiers with repairs and improvements before the siege starts...
Another use that worked well was to make it behave more like Profession in the sense that the craft gives you all relevant knowledge related to your work. A craft(alchemy) would know how to search for materials, identify related things in the environment (like how that smell you guys felt in the cave is actually dust from an adamantine oxide, leading to an adamantine vein). An adventurer craftsman uses his craft know-how more to identify and exploit than actually crafting.

[Psyx]

P.S. I've had good luck with 1 rank in woodworking building me a masterwork quarterstaff for free.


Genius.

But did you not get a 'divide by zero' error on your GM?

[Psyx]

I can't stand clubs because they're too inelegant

There's nothing inelegant about a Jo.

...Or indeed a gentleman's walking cane.

Both would stat as 'clubs' in 3e.

[Synapse]

Or a baseball bat. As far as improvised weapons go, clubs are as good as it gets.

[WarKitty]

Genius.

But did you not get a 'divide by zero' error on your GM?


There's nothing inelegant about a Jo.

...Or indeed a gentleman's walking cane.

Both would stat as 'clubs' in 3e.

(1) Probably should have, but we were inexperienced. As a solo campaign it didn't much matter anyway. I still spent more time making use of my move speed.

(2) Yeah I realized that later. It was only my second time playing.

[LibraryOgre]

Yeah, thats what I was thinking, value per pound. I tried to derive what that would be from the prices listed for the various armors and weapon, but I suck at math. I was hoping someone (I.E. you:smalltongue:) had already ciphered that one out.

When you asked, I actually looked at the SRD. Mithril is listed at 500gp/pound, darkwood at 10gp/pound, but there's no per pound for adamantine or alchemical silver. If pressed, I'd put alchemical silver at 5gp/pound (the same as silver coins, assuming semi-raw alchemical silver is similar in value to coin-silver of the same weight)*, and adamantine at 2000gp/pound (based largely on the difference in price between light mithril armor and light adamantine armor). This makes adamantine VERY rare in any large quantity.


Just one nitpick: if it takes adamantite tools to work with adamantite, how did you make the tools themselves? o.o

Very carefully. :smallbiggrin:

The same thought occurred to me, as well. As someone else mentioned, a wizard with Fabricate could do it, or a deity. I would imagine that the first ones were either gifts, or the result of careful experimentation that the average smith just can't do (for lack of raw materials).

In theory, to deform adamantine (i.e. make it into another shape), you need to overcome it's Hardness of 20, and you need to do this consistently. An adamantine hammer will do this naturally, since it ignores hardness up to 20 (actually, it says "less than", but assuming the heat of the forge drops its hardness by 1 isn't unreasonable). You could probably do it with regular tools, but I would give more than a -2, and you're looking at going through a LOT of hammers.

[WarKitty]

Do we have a melting point for adamantine? It could be cast rather than forged, for hammers and such.

[Synapse]

Not that I've ever seen. It does give a feel that it should be hotter than magma though, so you're looking at a good 2000 Kelvin

[Bayar]

No meatshield to keep the bad guy from running up to you with an axe.

Edit: Back on topic, I would presume the reason you typically can only sell for half price is because you are selling to a shopkeeper who wants to make a profit by selling at full price. So if you own your own shop and can get customers to it you can sell at full price.

Setting up your own shop however requires a decent investment. More likely you'd contract with a shopkeeper to provide him swords to sell. Under this arrangement I would peg the amount you could sell for at 3/4 or so. You probably have to rent your forge, so deduct that from your profits. You also likely have to pay rent for your room and board. So you *can* make a profit but it's not going to be stupendous.

Actually, it's because those items were touched by icky adventurers :tongue:

[LibraryOgre]

Do we have a melting point for adamantine? It could be cast rather than forged, for hammers and such.

Also a good point, though the history geek in me will point out that casting would need to be done very carefully... casting is generally weaker than forging, and the last thing you want to do is create adamantine shrapnel grenades in your workshops.

To quote Johnny Dangerously:
Dutch: They made it for him special. It's an eighty-eight Magnum.
Danny Vermin: It shoots through schools.

[Marnath]

Also a good point, though the history geek in me will point out that casting would need to be done very carefully... casting is generally weaker than forging, and the last thing you want to do is create adamantine shrapnel grenades in your workshops.


I bet there are PC's out there that would love a few adamantite shrapnel grenades, if you could keep them from blowing up prematurely. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Last i checked hot iron is softer than cold iron. Smelting adamantine shouldn't require previous adamantine tools, it's an easy handwave there.

Hmm, there's a thought, maybe Adamantine has to be initially melted down and cast in the shape of the initial tools? You can't work it until it's molten or near molten, hence the expense of having to have a full on furnace rather than just a forge in order to work it...


Another use that worked well was to make it behave more like Profession in the sense that the craft gives you all relevant knowledge related to your work. A craft(alchemy) would know how to search for materials, identify related things in the environment (like how that smell you guys felt in the cave is actually dust from an adamantine oxide, leading to an adamantine vein). An adventurer craftsman uses his craft know-how more to identify and exploit than actually crafting.

I know I'd let craft poison making give at least a bonus to survival or search checks to find traces of raw materials for such.

Edit: serves me right for not reading the entire page first. x.x kinja nitties, everywhere!

[LibraryOgre]

I bet there are PC's out there that would love a few adamantite shrapnel grenades, if you could keep them from blowing up prematurely. :smallbiggrin:

Rephrase, then. The last thing you want to do is create accidental adamantine shrapnel grenades that explode in your workshop.

[Marnath]

I know I'd let craft poison making give at least a bonus to survival or search checks to find traces of raw materials for such.


How would knowing how to make poison help you find adamantite veins?

[Coidzor]

How would knowing how to make poison help you find adamantite veins?

Never knew Adamantite was a component of poison-making. But, hey, if it is, and you can identify the raw adamantine ore because you work with it to create poisons, I see no reason to not allow some circumstantial benefits there.


Another use that worked well was to make it behave more like Profession in the sense that the craft gives you all relevant knowledge related to your work. A craft(alchemy) would know how to search for materials, identify related things in the environment (like how that smell you guys felt in the cave is actually dust from an adamantine oxide, leading to an adamantine vein). An adventurer craftsman uses his craft know-how more to identify and exploit than actually crafting.

This is what that component was reacting to anyway.

[Marnath]

Oh, I see. I was caught off guard by the abruptness of your topic shift. I thought we were still on the adamantite thing, like earlier in your post. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Knowing how to make poison should give you a familiarity with the ingredients. Might make the arguement you need know(nature) to find specific herbs and/or a knowledge skill related to exotic monster components too.