Cleric or Archivist?

[Masques]

Hey guys!

A character of mine died being a little lawful stupid and now I need to write up a new character and the DM asked me to make another healer, as I was previously playing a cleric.

I really like the look of the Cloistered Cleric, as my last build was a Melee build but the archivist seems INSANELY versatile and has more spell casting options.

I was wondering if playing without DMM is worth being an archivist, or if the best way to play an archivist is to dip into CC.

I am not looking for an optimized build exactly, as I found those online, but I can't find a pro/con for Archivist vs Cleric.

I am looking for something with plenty of options that doesn't step on the toes of my party, which includes Warforged Fighter, Warforged Artificer, Halfling Rouge, Dwarf Dragon Shaman, Human Knight and Human Wizard. I also still need to have decent healing abilities.

Thanks guys!

[Psyren]

Archivists can get DMM too if they enter Sacred Exorcist - with no loss of CL.

Really it comes down to whether you'd rather be more gishy or more blasty. Clerics are better at the former, Archivists at the latter.

It also depends on how easily you can get divine scrolls, particularly those of other divine classes.

EDIT: It sounds like your party could use a loremonkey, so you are definitely thinking along the right lines. For your Archivist to be a good one though, you'll need Paragnostic Apostle levels. Cloistered Cleric gives you more freedom to PrC as you will get Lore and Turn Undead in the box, but your Int will be lower.

[Masques]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I am not 100% on what Gishy is....

My party wizard is aiming to do more Control, Utility and Buffs.
I figured that left me divination, healing and blasting.

Also, forgot to mention we are level 3 and in the Eberron setting.

[RelentlessImp]

You might want to consider the Academic Priest feat from Dragonlance: Legends of the Twins if you go the Archivist route. That way you're completely SAD.

[Psyren]

Sorry for my ignorance, but I am not 100% on what Gishy is....

Gish means "hybrid of melee and casting."
Meaning, do you want to spend more of your spells on self-buffs, and then wading into the fray alongside the fighters? Or do you want to hang back and blast your enemies from afar?

Clerics are better at the first, Archivists are better at the second.


You might want to consider the Academic Priest feat from Dragonlance: Legends of the Twins if you go the Archivist route. That way you're completely SAD.

Just as a note, Archivists are completely fine even being MAD; they get plenty of base spells and their DCs are based on Int. so you don't need a lot of Wis.

(You'll want some of course, don't dump it completely; but then, Cloistered Clerics want some Int as well, so it's a wash.)

[Masques]

I am pretty sure that my party is a little front line heavy as it is, so I would like to avoid the front lines with this character.

I liked the sound of the the lore monkey, and I looked up the Paragnostic Apostle class from CC, and I am still running into Cleric vs Archivist, as Cloistered cleric gets lore, domains and Turn Undead, and the same spell progression...
but the archivist synergy for knowledge skills with this PrC is amazing.

So assuming I am going to choose this PrC, would an Archivist be better because of the skill synergy and gaining lore, or would Cloistered Cleric be better because I am not losing any class abilities with the cleric class?

[Psyren]

Well that's just it. The Cloistered Cleric gets their abilities in-class, but they have no way of learning the Archivist's Dark Secrets. The Archivist gets Dark Secrets AND can learn all the Cloistered Cleric's tricks, if you're allowed to take the necessary PrCs. Plus, they can learn Druid, Ranger, and Paladin spells. (Also Adept, Shugenja etc. if those can be found in your campaign.)

You really can't go wrong either way.

2nd Note: you have an artificer in your party - your Archivist can learn any divine spell you want from any list.

[sonofzeal]

CLERIC
- self-buffing Zilla pwnage
- DMM pwnage

ARCHIVIST
- actual class features
- potentially ludicrous class spell list



Fundamentally, they fill different roles. An Archivist will play more like a divine Wizard - low hp, massive cosmic reality-spanking power. He'll have the same flexibility, and many of the same tricks. He'll lose a few (no celerity), gain a few (Wieldskill, Fire Seeds, etc), and generally get a similar effect.

Clerics, well, we all know how clerics play. They buff themselves up and lay the smack down, and they are very very good at it. But they don't play like Wizards.

The one other important thing to ask is the availability of magic supplies. If you can have any scroll you want, Archivist is pretty awesome. But if your access to new spells to borrow is limited, Archivist really suffers. Their power essentially depends on DM lenience, so tread with care.

[Masques]

So is the decision quick ascent to power for a cleric and slower for archivist? Getting a quick boost with three domain powers and gaining nothing else, vs the gradual increase of dark knowledge?

Is the Dark Knowledge equal in gameplay terms to the Domain Powers?

And I assume that means there is way to make an Artificer help me make a scroll that I can learn from?

[Masques]

The one other important thing to ask is the availability of magic supplies. If you can have any scroll you want, Archivist is pretty awesome. But if your access to new spells to borrow is limited, Archivist really suffers. Their power essentially depends on DM lenience, so tread with care.

I think there is an in between, I can find magical supplies but I am going to have to work Diplomacy checks, roleplaying creativity and find a way for the obsession with new spells part of my personality, which the Archivist itself makes kind of easy.

[sonofzeal]

I think there is an in between, I can find magical supplies but I am going to have to work Diplomacy checks, roleplaying creativity and find a way for the obsession with new spells part of my personality, which the Archivist itself makes kind of easy.
Oh, of course there's grey areas. But in my experience, if you have to regularly roll checks to see what you can acquire, then you're not going to be able to get everything on your wish list. And, if you start really getting powerful, expect availability to start dropping.

[Psyren]

But you have an Artificer - can't he just make whatever scroll you need?

And remember, you can also learn cleric spells without him.

I definitely think you should lean towards Archivist; you're already going to be the knowledge-monkey, so the synergy is very strong. And your front-line is covered. Clerics can blast, but aren't very good at it early on, even with the right domains. (You only get one domain slot per spell level.)

[Masques]

Can you use an infusion scroll? How does that work. It would open up a world of possibilities if that works, but I thought they hand to cast from spell completion/ spell trigger items.

Archivist using the Dark Knowledge to party buff and spells to blast and heal it is. Thanks guys!

[The Shadowmind]

Artificers can make real magic items, it is there main gig. But artificer scrolls are neither arcane nor divine, so that makes copying those scroll a bit difficult.
A warlock 12 with scribe scroll could make arcane or divine scrolls, but instead of being about to do it at level 1, they have to wait till level 12.

[Masques]

So if they showed me the spell and I played the exp and gp cost, it would be divine, right?

[faceroll]

So if they showed me the spell and I played the exp and gp cost, it would be divine, right?

For warlocks, I believe so.

[sonofzeal]

Actually, I think the Artificer is okay. His own spells are neither arcane nor divine, but I see nothing in his "item creation" section preventing him from making arcane or divine scrolls.

[faceroll]

Actually, I think the Artificer is okay. His own spells are neither arcane nor divine, but I see nothing in his "item creation" section preventing him from making arcane or divine scrolls.

It was errata that came out ruling that scrolls an artificer makes with his "I put any spell in it I want" are neither arcane nor divine. I believe.

[sonofzeal]

It was errata that came out ruling that scrolls an artificer makes with his "I put any spell in it I want" are neither arcane nor divine. I believe.
Link to the errata?

[faceroll]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/904639/Eberron-Campaign-Setting-Errata

[Psyren]

Actually, Artificers aren't restricted to only making "artificer scrolls." Their Item Creation ability explicitly lets them make any kind of magic item, from any class list. (A scroll is a magic item. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm))

They just need a successful UMD-check to fake it first, just like Warlocks do. So your artificer friend can make all the paladin, druid, ranger etc. spells you need to broaden your list.

EDIT: Missed the errata, but the spells themselves are still divine even if the items are not. Narrow loophole but it's there.

[sonofzeal]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/904639/Eberron-Campaign-Setting-Errata
I don't see anything there changing how Item Creation works....I see it now. Sucks....

[Psyren]

I'll expand on the loophole. The Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) class states the following:


At each new class level, the archivist gains two new cleric spells for his prayerbook; these can be of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new archivist level). At any time, an archivist can also add spells found on scrolls containing divine spells to his prayerbook, but he must make any rolls and spend the time required...

Emphasis added. The scrolls must contain divine spells; nothing says the scrolls themselves must be divine. Like I said, pretty narrow, but without that loophole nobody can use an artificer's items except an artificer himself, or someone packing tons of UMD (and even then, not in combat unless they're a Warlock). I feel that is neither RAW nor RAI.

[faceroll]

I'll expand on the loophole. The Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) class states the following:



Emphasis added. The scrolls must contain divine spells; nothing says the scrolls themselves must be divine. Like I said, pretty narrow, but without that loophole nobody can use an artificer's items except an artificer himself, or someone packing tons of UMD (and even then, not in combat unless they're a Warlock). I feel that is neither RAW nor RAI.

If you open up your DMG to the part on scrolls, you'll see that the language there does indeed include contain. The type of spell (either arcane or divine) a scroll contains seems to determine whether the scroll itself is considered arcane or divine.

[Psyren]

If you open up your DMG to the part on scrolls, you'll see that the language there does indeed include contain. The type of spell (either arcane or divine) a scroll contains seems to determine whether the scroll itself is considered arcane or divine.

It uses both (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) actually, (see under "Activate the spell") but nowhere does it state your conclusion (that the spell a scroll contains determines its type.) Indeed, it can't - some spells are on both lists, so the spell itself does not determine the type, only the person creating it.

Artificer scrolls are untyped, it's true, but the Archivist scribing ability does not rely on scroll type, only spell type.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd say if you have a 'neither arcane nor divine' scroll of the spell you want in front of you, maybe you can get the DM to give you discounts on *researching* the divine version of the spell, per DMG spell research rules?

Ask the DM, flat out, "The vast majority of the power from this class comes from things like finding scrolls of spells made by druids, clerics with obscure domains, paladins, blackguards, divine bards, adepts, shujenga, obscure cleric spells and very obscure cleric domains, rangers, slayers of domiel, nentyar hunters, emissary of brachiel, consecrated harriers, variant versions of many of these classes, wizards with alternate spell source or divine magician or any of the other feats or class abilities to make their spells divine, and so on and so forth. How common will weird divine spells on scrolls be in this game? What checks will I have to make? Are we allowed to just say I buy a scroll of whatever? How much in game time and effort do we want to spend on me finding an obscure divine scroll of whatever? Do we actually want to, each and every time, roleplay me finding someone with one of these classes and getting spells from them? Won't that slow the game down overly? How do you plan on handling this?"

Also... the most common divine classes are likely to be "Adepts" and "Clerics", including the domains of the main organized religions, so you can likely get spells from those two lists easily... point that out... Remember, Eberron has a few variant Adepts, the Religious Adept and I the Urban Adept. These are likely to be common, as are Cloistered Clerics. Eberron is a very urban setting...

[Psyren]

Eberron flat-out states that true Clerics are rare, and most individuals (i.e. NPCs) labelled as Clerics by the public are actually Adepts (FoE pg. 13). So I agree, scrolls from those two classes should be the most readily-available.

Druids, Paladins and Rangers should be rarer, and the much more obscure stuff (Divine Bards, Shugenja etc.) should be nigh unheard-of.