Belt of Battle vs. Quicken

[bokodasu]

I've been saving up for a Metamagic Rod of Quicken. Man, those things are expensive. And then I flip through the MIC and there on page 73 is this thing that lets you take a full-round action immediately. For 12k gp.

So for 36,000 gold, you can:

Cast 3 full-round spells of 3rd or lower level as free actions (as long as you're not trying to cast spontaneously) and bank 1k gp

OR

Cast 3 full-round spells of any level, or take any other 3 actions you might have the urge to do but not quite the time to fit it in, as swift actions, PLUS get a constant +2 to initiative. Also remain cool and stylish and hold your pants up while not looking like a dork trying to juggle your rod and your weapon (ahem).

Bwuh?

(Also, in the description of the BoB it refers to itself as a ring.)

[Kaww]

I've been saving up for a Metamagic Rod of Quicken. Man, those things are expensive. And then I flip through the MIC and there on page 73 is this thing that lets you take a full-round action immediately. For 12k gp.

So for 36,000 gold, you can:

Cast 3 full-round spells of 3rd or lower level as free actions (as long as you're not trying to cast spontaneously) and bank 1k gp

OR

Cast 3 full-round spells of any level, or take any other 3 actions you might have the urge to do but not quite the time to fit it in, as swift actions, PLUS get a constant +2 to initiative. Also remain cool and stylish and hold your pants up while not looking like a dork trying to juggle your rod and your weapon (ahem).

Bwuh?

(Also, in the description of the BoB it refers to itself as a ring.)

You misread it gives one full-round action per day. Read more carefully...

EDIT: Me DUMB I just realized what you wrote. Still you have to take of a belt and put on the other one...

[sonofzeal]

You misread it gives one full-round action per day. Read more carefully...

EDIT: Me DUMB I just realized what you wrote. Still you have to take of a belt and put on the other one...
He's buying three of them.

[bokodasu]

You misread it gives one full-round action per day. Read more carefully...

Yes, but if I buy three of them, that's three actions. And 36k gp. Ok, there is a bit of leaping-into-the-phonebooth to change tacked on, but I don't think using an item 3x in 1 encounter vs. using 3 items in 3 separate encounters is really worth the price difference there. (Also, if you're using it right, you shouldn't get the chance to use it 3x in 1 encounter, because that encounter will be OVER.)

[Kaww]

EDIT: Me DUMB I just realized what you wrote. Still you have to take of a belt and put on the other one...


He's buying three of them.

I got it, a second after I hit the post button...

EDIT: I don't think he is a he, if you understand what I'm saying...

[Keld Denar]

If you want more uses. there is also the Circlet of Rapid Casting, which is great for getting more milage out of those low level spell slots. Lots of low level spells scale nicely like Benign Transpositon and Ray of Enfeeblement/Clumsiness.

Also note that you can always use your highest level slots with a Belt of Battle, while MM Rods are capped at 3, 6, and 9s respectively. Greater MM Rods of Quicken almost fall into the tier of epic equipment, they are so frellin expensive.

[bokodasu]

Also note that you can always use your highest level slots with a Belt of Battle, while MM Rods are capped at 3, 6, and 9s respectively. Greater MM Rods of Quicken almost fall into the tier of epic equipment, they are so frellin expensive.

See, this is exactly my point. I'm casting 7th-level spells now, and I can either level up a couple times and spend my entire WBL to quicken 3 per day, or I can buy three cheap items and do the same thing, with extra bonuses.

Any idea how the pricing on the BoB was worked out?

[Godskook]

Any idea how the pricing on the BoB was worked out?

I think its more that metamagic rods have a pricing based on their +X cost, of which quicken is among the largest. On the other hand, BoB was evaluated 'free' of conventions about what it should cost, so it had no direct comparison.

Also, the 3/encounter availability of the Rod is not to be entirely ignored, since you can't always predict when your DM is going to a pull a "I am not left-handed" moment on you, and the encounter goes from "mopping up" to "should we run now or grab the fallen first".

[Ernir]

Any idea how the pricing on the BoB was worked out?

I think intoxicants were involved.

[plllizzz]

I can't see why can't he wear all three at the same time :smalltongue:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooManyBelts - heroes love'em

[John Campbell]

My preferred solution is simply to tell anyone who tries to use more than one belt of battle in a given day to stop being ridiculous. And if they actually try changing their belt in the middle of a fight, smacking them with the Pathfinder corebook.

(Most of the similar items in the MIC have a clause that works out so you can only benefit from one of them. The belt of battle really should, too.)

[Runestar]

What's wrong with swapping and using multiple belts? I would totally allow that. :smallbiggrin:

[Stegyre]

(Most of the similar items in the MIC have a clause that works out so you can only benefit from one of them. The belt of battle really should, too.)
Yeah: the 24-hour adaptation period. For the reasons identified by the OP, I take that as implied for a 12k BoB.

Not RAW, but RAW is awfully messed up in certain instances.

[Susano-wo]

What's wrong with swapping and using multiple belts? I would totally allow that. :smallbiggrin:

/facepalm
>.>

[nedz]

(Also, in the description of the BoB it refers to itself as a ring.)

So you could interpret that as meaning:
You wear one around your waist,
You wear the second on your left hand,
And you wear the third on your right hand.
:smallbiggrin:

Seriously
I always either: recalculate the prices of equipment from the MIC according to the rules in the DMG; or just ban them. I would favor the latter in this case, though you could rework it to just not do spells.

[Keld Denar]

This makes me sad. If anything you should reprice the items in the DMG to align with the items in the MIC. DMG stuff in general is considered rediculously and oppressively over priced to the point where 90% of it doesn't see the light of day in a game unless its randomly generated DM treasure. Seriously, who would spend all that cash on a Circlet of Blasting? Nobody. Its a terribly thought out and terribly priced item and totally not worth a body slot.

MIC fixes things. The rest of the game should be fixed to be brought to MICs level, otherwise you are just tearing the bandaid off the freshly scabbed wound.

[ericgrau]

You could argue that some things in the DMG are overpriced, but to say they all are is nonsense. The DMG prices and WBL are the definition of what's reasonable. Making everything cheaper is exactly the same as increasing WBL, and makes the level of power shift. Upping the level of power is no better or worse than lowering it. Regardless the belt of battle is one of the much stronger items in the MIC and needs a big downgrade or price boost by either standard.

For a fighter a circlet of blasting isn't much use but for the money a core rogue could make good use of it in place of one of his single attacks or when fighting undead. It is a big damage touch attack that stacks with sneak attack damage. Plus in core there are very few good head slot items for him. Against splatbook builds ya like everything else it needs an upgrade. And such items are only useful for some though. I do like how the MIC frees up more item slots to make oddball items more of a consideration by making it so that they don't have to compete with bread-and-butter items.

[Coidzor]

/facepalm
>.>

And what's so absolutely horrible about that?


Seriously
I always either: recalculate the prices of equipment from the MIC according to the rules in the DMG; or just ban them. I would favor the latter in this case, though you could rework it to just not do spells.

That's a shame, cutting off such a great resource from yourself and your players.

[ericgrau]

Well hopefully since most MIC items aren't so bad he allows them, possibly with a price adjust. The belt of battle is a bit over the top.

[ffone]

I've been saving up for a Metamagic Rod of Quicken. Man, those things are expensive. And then I flip through the MIC and there on page 73 is this thing that lets you take a full-round action immediately. For 12k gp.

So for 36,000 gold, you can:

Cast 3 full-round spells of 3rd or lower level as free actions (as long as you're not trying to cast spontaneously) and bank 1k gp

OR

Cast 3 full-round spells of any level, or take any other 3 actions you might have the urge to do but not quite the time to fit it in, as swift actions, PLUS get a constant +2 to initiative. Also remain cool and stylish and hold your pants up while not looking like a dork trying to juggle your rod and your weapon (ahem).

Bwuh?

(Also, in the description of the BoB it refers to itself as a ring.)

Yup. 'Extra action' abilities tend to be crazy good b/c as you level up, the value of what you can do with said actions also increases. The amount I'd be willing to pay for a BoB if I had to, would basically track a % of my WBL.

Regarding multiple belts per counter: if you have no use for the move action(s) of those turns, b/c you use the regular and extra turn to cast two standard-action spells, you might be able to switch out belts during battle without much loss. Unfortunately, I don't think using 3 charges for a full round action lets you get an extra standard + move action instead?

[Susano-wo]

And what's so absolutely horrible about that?


Nothing objective. It just seems so cheesy to me. I know that's a matter of personal taste, but swapping out belts as needed, even aside from logistical problems, its just...cheesy.:smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

Nothing objective. It just seems so cheesy to me. I know that's a matter of personal taste, but swapping out belts as needed, even aside from logistical problems, its just...cheesy.:smallsigh:

It takes less than a minute to switch belts. This would only be a logistical problem if done in the middle of battle, where it would be a waste of times to spend a turn+ now doing nothing in order to get an extra turn 2-3 turns later.

Explain the cheese.

[nedz]

Its the inconsistancy of the pricing I have an issue with: between the MIC and DMG. Either follow one set of rules or the other: which you choose doesn't really matter.

[Fizban]

Yes, but if I buy three of them, that's three actions. And 36k gp. Ok, there is a bit of leaping-into-the-phonebooth to change tacked on, but I don't think using an item 3x in 1 encounter vs. using 3 items in 3 separate encounters is really worth the price difference there. (Also, if you're using it right, you shouldn't get the chance to use it 3x in 1 encounter, because that encounter will be OVER.)


My preferred solution is simply to tell anyone who tries to use more than one belt of battle in a given day to stop being ridiculous. And if they actually try changing their belt in the middle of a fight, smacking them with the Pathfinder corebook.

(Most of the similar items in the MIC have a clause that works out so you can only benefit from one of them. The belt of battle really should, too.)


It takes less than a minute to switch belts. This would only be a logistical problem if done in the middle of battle, where it would be a waste of times to spend a turn+ now doing nothing in order to get an extra turn 2-3 turns later.

Explain the cheese.

Wear them all at once, then take off the top one and drop it when it's empty. When you take off the last one you put on the one before that becomes active. What action does it take to remove a belt? Depends on if it's "well secured" or not, but since you aren't fighting to disarm someone I wouldn't expect longer than move or full-round. Unfasten buckle and pull takes a lot less than some move actions.

[Susano-wo]

sorry,I was unclear. Cheesy in the way you would describe a movie, not in the way you would describe a powerful combo, which is why I was saying that its all personal taste :smallsmile:

And as far as logisitics, I was meaning that you have to either A: always carry handy haversacks or bags of holding or whtever, or stuff a bunch of belts in your backpack, or whatever. (or, as I thought when I wrote the post, do what Fizban said. you can wear as many belts as you please, just only 1 gives you its efects)
I was talking about the physical logistics of carrying around a bunch of belts :smalltongue:

[Douglas]

You could argue that some things in the DMG are overpriced, but to say they all are is nonsense. The DMG prices and WBL are the definition of what's reasonable. Making everything cheaper is exactly the same as increasing WBL, and makes the level of power shift. Upping the level of power is no better or worse than lowering it. Regardless the belt of battle is one of the much stronger items in the MIC and needs a big downgrade or price boost by either standard.
No one's saying that everything in the DMG is overpriced, just that the vast majority of it is. If you give an optimizer a character build and a pile of money to spend on equipping the character and tell him he can buy anything from the DMG at list price, and then repeated this many times with different builds and different (but all skilled) optimizers, certain items would show up in the optimizers choices over and over again and again and again while most of the rest would be ignored entirely by every single one of them. MIC took the viewpoint of saying that those items that lots of optimizers would pick are the appropriate benchmark, and everything should have a power to cost ratio similar to that specific small portion of the DMG items. Done right, this does not change power level at all - optimizers buying the new items are getting the same overall power as optimizers buying the old ones - but adds a lot more options and variation. Overall, the vast majority of MIC content hit very close to that mark.


For a fighter a circlet of blasting isn't much use but for the money a core rogue could make good use of it in place of one of his single attacks or when fighting undead. It is a big damage touch attack that stacks with sneak attack damage. Plus in core there are very few good head slot items for him. Against splatbook builds ya like everything else it needs an upgrade. And such items are only useful for some though. I do like how the MIC frees up more item slots to make oddball items more of a consideration by making it so that they don't have to compete with bread-and-butter items.
3d8 damage 1/day for 6480, and 40 damage 1/day for 23760, each as a standard action? Utter total and complete trash. From a powergaming optimization perspective, I would never consider either of these items at this price for any class. By the time WBL says you should be able to reasonably afford them, even a pure core character should be easily doing more than that many times per day.

[Runestar]

Nothing objective. It just seems so cheesy to me. I know that's a matter of personal taste, but swapping out belts as needed, even aside from logistical problems, its just...cheesy.:smallsigh:

Not really worth it later on, when his belt of battle is likely to also include an enhancement bonus to str and/or con.

I am quite okay with it, just as I readily allow swapping of healing belts and the like. To me, they are really no different from 1/day wondrous items. If you are allowed to use say, multiple pearls of power consecutively, why not multiple belts or gloves or boots or whatever?

MIC introduces so many items with limited charges, you are sure to finish using them before the day is up. Seems like crippling if the player is not allowed to swap them out for other magic gear with unused charges. :smallannoyed:

[Ernir]

One thing about the Belt of Battle that bothers me...

It's the best belt in the game. Period. Once you can afford a Belt of Battle, there are really only two belts you should consider wearing - a Belt of Battle, or a combination item involving the Belt of Battle. I'm not saying that a BoB is everyone's top priority (I, for one, often go for a +4 stat booster before a BoB), but that if you get to cherry pick your items, I can't think of a character that wouldn't want to end up with a BoB.

And the real thing is that this is is not class specific.

I really like the MIC. IMO, it might add more to the game than any other 3.5 sourcebook. But when there is never a question of whether you want to get a certain item, there's something wrong.

[Runestar]

One thing about the Belt of Battle that bothers me...

It's the best belt in the game. Period.

IMO, the belt is that sought after because it solves one of the biggest problems plaguing melee - namely that they are so reliant on the full-attack action, and moving drastically decreases their damage output (because they can only make 1 attack). Said belt allows a fighter to move and still full-attack, and as it consumes only 1 charge per use, is probably the most efficient use of the belt.

Conversely, if I were playing say, a warblade focusing on standard action strikes, the belt wouldn't be such a high priority for me.

[FelixG]

Getting a belt on and off could be fairly quick really...If you are wearing it over a cloak for example to keep it from billowing out, sort of how monks tie their robes closed with rope...then you could take one off and put another on in a matter of seconds if you put your mind to it :smallbiggrin:

[Ernir]

IMO, the belt is that sought after because it solves one of the biggest problems plaguing melee - namely that they are so reliant on the full-attack action, and moving drastically decreases their damage output (because they can only make 1 attack). Said belt allows a fighter to move and still full-attack, and as it consumes only 1 charge per use, is probably the most efficient use of the belt.

Conversely, if I were playing say, a warblade focusing on standard action strikes, the belt wouldn't be such a high priority for me.

But is there a belt you would rather have on a Warblade?


EDIT: I may have come off too strongly. There are belts that are worth the slot (Dragon spirit cinctures for DFAs, Monk's Belts for unarmored Wisdom people, Incarnum Focus: Waist for some Meldshapers) other than the BoB, but even so, those who find a use for other belts would eventually like to combo their other belt with a BoB, even if it means paying 18k for the BoB. It's at least good enough to cost 18k.

[John Campbell]

Not really worth it later on, when his belt of battle is likely to also include an enhancement bonus to str and/or con.
There are other slots that can take the Str enhancement, and Con doesn't even go on the belt by default. If you can swap belts of battle out, it's totally worth the non-cost of putting your attribute boosters on shirts or gloves or whatnot to be able to break action economy every single fight.


I am quite okay with it, just as I readily allow swapping of healing belts and the like. To me, they are really no different from 1/day wondrous items. If you are allowed to use say, multiple pearls of power consecutively, why not multiple belts or gloves or boots or whatever?

MIC introduces so many items with limited charges, you are sure to finish using them before the day is up. Seems like crippling if the player is not allowed to swap them out for other magic gear with unused charges. :smallannoyed:
It is. Yet many of those items are explicitly limited so you can't swap them out. This is a deliberate balancing factor in the items' design... you get a good effect for cheap, with the downside being that you get it only a very few times a day, and it continues to monopolize the slot regardless. Even "crippled" in that way, the belt of battle is a really, really good item, especially for its price. Without that limitation, it's ridiculously, brokenly good. As the OP points out, swappable belts of battle are just flat out better than rods of metamagic Quicken. Which are already brokenly good.

The way I figure it, my options are:
a) Ban the belt of battle entirely.
b) Give it the same limitation on swapping that most of the other limited-charge items have.

I don't want to do a), in large part because it is more flexible than a rod of Quicken... it lets the melee types do what the casters have been able to do all along. So, b).

[Susano-wo]

Not really worth it later on, when his belt of battle is likely to also include an enhancement bonus to str and/or con.

I am quite okay with it, just as I readily allow swapping of healing belts and the like. To me, they are really no different from 1/day wondrous items. If you are allowed to use say, multiple pearls of power consecutively, why not multiple belts or gloves or boots or whatever?

MIC introduces so many items with limited charges, you are sure to finish using them before the day is up. Seems like crippling if the player is not allowed to swap them out for other magic gear with unused charges. :smallannoyed:

Hmm, this is a bit of power cheese to me too, I guess. (sorry, wasn't trying to lie :smallamused:). I see the x/day charges issue to be an intentional limitation. In other words you are trying to get more uses out of it by 'swapping out.' Its not 'crippling your character' to have a limit on how many times you can use the ability:smallfrown:

Again, though this is fairly subjective, and I'm not tryint to come down on people, only that my gut reaction is "bleghh:smallyuk:"

[bokodasu]

Well, in my particular case it's officially moot, as my DM outlawed the BoB. Which sucks like a very sucky thing. (He's also said no to that honey wossis that lets you cast summon spells as a standard action instead of full-round. I think maybe there's a feat left that I could try to grab?)

Seriously: all I want is to be able to summon a creature and have it act during a fight. Every single battle goes like this:

Round 1: Cast a party buff of some sort.
Round 2: Begin summoning
Round 3: Rest of party finishes demolishing whatever we're fighting. Huge Fire Elemental appears, goes, "Hey guys, I heard you needed... no? Ok, then, I'll just hang out here in the corner and, um, be a mobile light source for the next minute and a half. Anyone got any marshmallows?"

Yes, I realize the answer is to stop trying to summon things. But dammit, Huge Elementals are cool.

I think from now on I'm only going to memorize Mass Snake's Swiftness. If I can't break the action economy for myself, I might as well break it for everyone else.

[bokodasu]

In other words you are trying to get more uses out of it by 'swapping out.' Its not 'crippling your character' to have a limit on how many times you can use the ability

Well, no; you're using different items. If a player bought a +1 flaming sword and a +1 shocking sword, would you call it cheesy if they wanted to switch them between encounters? If they bought two mules, would they still be limited to the carrying capacity of one?

There are items with must-wear-to-recharge and non-stacking rules, so if the BoB were meant to have a mechanism like that, it would. (Probably. Although nobody caught the thing with referring to it as a ring in the part about how it recharges, so who knows? All we have to go on is what they wrote.)

Personally, I'd disallow in-battle switching; this isn't some Wal-Mart slider belt, it's a super-fancy magical thing with buckles and slots and tabs and fanciness. But I wouldn't have any problem with people using the items they paid for.

[Susano-wo]

Well, no; you're using different items. If a player bought a +1 flaming sword and a +1 shocking sword, would you call it cheesy if they wanted to switch them between encounters? If they bought two mules, would they still be limited to the carrying capacity of one?

There are items with must-wear-to-recharge and non-stacking rules, so if the BoB were meant to have a mechanism like that, it would. (Probably. Although nobody caught the thing with referring to it as a ring in the part about how it recharges, so who knows? All we have to go on is what they wrote.)

Personally, I'd disallow in-battle switching; this isn't some Wal-Mart slider belt, it's a super-fancy magical thing with buckles and slots and tabs and fanciness. But I wouldn't have any problem with people using the items they paid for.

see, +1 swords function all the time. If he was carrying around a warehouse of weapons for x/day effects, I would roll my eyes.

And just because they neglected to put a wear for a day rule on it does not mean that they intended you to swap it out. IN any case, the biggest thing for me is thematic cheesery, which, of course, is purely subjective.

[ericgrau]

The way I figure it, my options are:
a) Ban the belt of battle entirely.
b) Give it the same limitation on swapping that most of the other limited-charge items have.

I don't want to do a), in large part because it is more flexible than a rod of Quicken... it lets the melee types do what the casters have been able to do all along. So, b).
That's a bit of an item tax though as everyone still won't ever want to have a different belt. Suddenly your treasure options have been reduced by 10%, and the game has become that much less interesting. I always say if you want to buff a class then be straightforward about it. Give them the benefit for free or at least make it not take an item slot (while still making it unswappable).

[Runestar]

As the OP points out, swappable belts of battle are just flat out better than rods of metamagic Quicken. Which are already brokenly good.

Then perhaps it is the rod which is overpriced.

Let me use swapping of belt of healing as an example.

Some people find it cheesy. I don't. Why? Because it is in effect a potion of cure moderate wounds which recharges every day. And even then, it is still way more expensive than a wand of CLW or vigor.

Let's see...for 750gp, would I rather have a belt which heals up to 6d8 hp once a day, or a wand which can heal up to 750gp? Even though the wand eventually gets used up, I would still go for it, simply because you are likely to get hit for more than 28 damage a day by that time anyways.

Even with swapping, you would need to use this everyday for 25 days just to break even. Assuming 4 encounters/day (and 13 encounters to lv), this means you will already have gained 8 lvs - enough to make the cost irrelevant.

So you can swap the belt all you want, and it still stinks compared to said wand. Yet no one ever seems to complain that spamming a wand of vigor is cheesy. :smallcool:

[Douglas]

a wand which can heal up to 750gp?
You mean 550 hp, right? Healing is not generally expressed in monetary units.

[Keld Denar]

I dunno, I've expressed interest in the past of a gold powered infinite wand. The wand has infinite charges, but you buy those charges by inserting money directly into the wand similar to a pre-payed debit card. Saves you from having to trek to the surface when your happy stick runs out of juice...simply kill some more duergar and apply the gold directly to the forehead.

[ffone]

One thing about the Belt of Battle that bothers me...

It's the best belt in the game. Period. Once you can afford a Belt of Battle, there are really only two belts you should consider wearing - a Belt of Battle, or a combination item involving the Belt of Battle. I'm not saying that a BoB is everyone's top priority (I, for one, often go for a +4 stat booster before a BoB), but that if you get to cherry pick your items, I can't think of a character that wouldn't want to end up with a BoB.

And the real thing is that this is is not class specific.

I really like the MIC. IMO, it might add more to the game than any other 3.5 sourcebook. But when there is never a question of whether you want to get a certain item, there's something wrong.

+1. IMO the largest issue with 'overpowered' items is not 'fairness' for its own sake, but that they drastically reduce the variety and versatility of the game. Which is boring.

Same thing with OP classes, feats, races, etc. (that's even worse, since items are more 'modular').

[Coidzor]

I dunno, I've expressed interest in the past of a gold powered infinite wand. The wand has infinite charges, but you buy those charges by inserting money directly into the wand similar to a pre-payed debit card. Saves you from having to trek to the surface when your happy stick runs out of juice...simply kill some more duergar and apply the gold directly to the forehead.

Well, darn, now I want to try out that house rule.

[Tharck]

You could buy the belt, and then make a wonderous item for a different slot with the same effect. Gloves of Battle, Boots of Battle, Helm of Battle, ect. Dont forget you can have an Amulet of Health and Battle. Feel free to Belt of Battle for every wonderous item slot. The DM can rule it doesn't make sense in other places (of course or remove the item blah blah) just stack'em up.

[Susano-wo]

Dm can also easily rule that these are not the normal slots for "battle" items, and charge you, what is it, double cost?

[ffone]

Dm can also easily rule that these are not the normal slots for "battle" items, and charge you, what is it, double cost?

1.5x.

Which in conjunction with a 1.5x from being the not-most-expensive effect of a multi-ability item, would RAW I think come to 2.0x, although I'd personally allow 1.75x since at 2x you could have slotless items, which are strictly better.

[Runestar]

I dunno, I've expressed interest in the past of a gold powered infinite wand. The wand has infinite charges, but you buy those charges by inserting money directly into the wand similar to a pre-payed debit card. Saves you from having to trek to the surface when your happy stick runs out of juice...simply kill some more duergar and apply the gold directly to the forehead.

Someone's been watching Kamen Rider OOO? :smallamused:

They use a similar mechanic, their weapons need medals (apparently some form of power source/currency) to work. For instance, the hero charges up his sword by slotting in 3 medals. He gets new powerups by slotting medals into a vending machine (which can also transform into his motorcycle), which then dispenses the appropriate items. And when he wounds his foes, medals fall out of their wounds which he then collects. :smallcool:

[Susano-wo]

Someone's been watching Kamen Rider OOO? :smallamused:

They use a similar mechanic, their weapons need medals (apparently some form of power source/currency) to work. For instance, the hero charges up his sword by slotting in 3 medals. He gets new powerups by slotting medals into a vending machine (which can also transform into his motorcycle), which then dispenses the appropriate items. And when he wounds his foes, medals fall out of their wounds which he then collects. :smallcool:

Wow. That is so cheesy that I have to watch it!:smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

Someone's been watching Kamen Rider OOO? :smallamused:

Who what now where?

[Godless_Paladin]

One thing about the Belt of Battle that bothers me...

It's the best belt in the game. Period. Once you can afford a Belt of Battle, there are really only two belts you should consider wearing - a Belt of Battle, or a combination item involving the Belt of Battle. I'm not saying that a BoB is everyone's top priority (I, for one, often go for a +4 stat booster before a BoB), but that if you get to cherry pick your items, I can't think of a character that wouldn't want to end up with a BoB.

And the real thing is that this is is not class specific.

I really like the MIC. IMO, it might add more to the game than any other 3.5 sourcebook. But when there is never a question of whether you want to get a certain item, there's something wrong.

The Belt of Battle is a clearly overpowered item. It is pretty much the best belt in the game, hands down. Everyone wants one or more, and they noticeably change the optimization level of a game on their own.

[Boci]

The Belt of Battle is a clearly overpowered item. It is pretty much the best belt in the game, hands down.

And amulet of health is pretty much the best amulet in the game.

[Godless_Paladin]

And amulet of health is pretty much the best amulet in the game.

No it isn't. It's one of the good ones, but there are competitive (and sometimes outright better) choices.

In the MiC alone you have the Reliquary Holy Symbol, Amulet of Tears, and Amulet of Second Chances. And you can of course stack these on top of the effects of an amulet of health, like with all stat boosters. In a post MiC game you don't have "just" an Amulet of Health.

Nevermind stuff like an Amulet of Retribution, Hand of Glory, Phylactery of Change, or a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. Or even just a Catseye Brooch.

[jumpet]

The Belt of Battle is a clearly overpowered item. It is pretty much the best belt in the game, hands down. Everyone wants one or more, and they noticeably change the optimization level of a game on their own.


I think for warrior types its fine, but mages using it to cast two spells in around is a bit much. Factoring craft wonderous, its dirt cheap. Really should be called the Belt of Spellcasting.

[Boci]

No it isn't. It's one of the good ones, but there are competitive (and sometimes outright better) choices.

And some competition has been mentioned for the belt slot.

[faceroll]

No one's saying that everything in the DMG is overpriced, just that the vast majority of it is. If you give an optimizer a character build and a pile of money to spend on equipping the character and tell him he can buy anything from the DMG at list price, and then repeated this many times with different builds and different (but all skilled) optimizers, certain items would show up in the optimizers choices over and over again and again and again while most of the rest would be ignored entirely by every single one of them. MIC took the viewpoint of saying that those items that lots of optimizers would pick are the appropriate benchmark, and everything should have a power to cost ratio similar to that specific small portion of the DMG items. Done right, this does not change power level at all - optimizers buying the new items are getting the same overall power as optimizers buying the old ones - but adds a lot more options and variation. Overall, the vast majority of MIC content hit very close to that mark.

Yeah, but MiC also came out when the designers were contemplating putting magic items in the PHB (and then they did). 3.x follows a different design philosophy. Like random treasure. Most of you're wealth is going to be random treasure, and most of that is going to be magic items. Selling a crappy item for 1/2 price isn't always that appealing, since 1/2 the price, then splitting the gold 4 to 6 ways just doesn't seem as useful as, say, giving the rogue that item. Item optimization works best in an environment without the organic nature of leveling.

[Boci]

Item optimization works best in an environment without the organic nature of leveling.

Depends. Crafting feats, amount of rewards paid as gp or letters of credit. How the DM interprets WBL.

[faceroll]

Depends. Crafting feats, amount of rewards paid as gp or letters of credit. How the DM interprets WBL.

If playing by the tables & treasure rules, you're getting things off random rolled loot tables. Which means a substantial chunk of treasure is tied up in less than appropriate gear. You are right about crafting, though. That gives the players a chance to roll the 1/2 treasure wealth back into what they want.

[faceroll]

Depends. Crafting feats, amount of rewards paid as gp or letters of credit. How the DM interprets WBL.

If playing by the tables & treasure rules, you're getting things off random rolled loot tables. Which means a substantial chunk of treasure is tied up in less than appropriate gear. You are right about crafting, though. That gives the players a chance to roll the 1/2 treasure wealth back into what they want.

I think treasure is one of those things that's too variable between games and groups to be counted on too strongly for practical charop, but then, that's just my experience with DMs.

[ffone]

The random / organic treasure point is irrelevant: that just means that a Belt of Battle will be available in a smaller fraction of campaigns. It doesn't make it any less OP or worth the 12K when it is available. If anything it makes the balance more of an issue (b/c in that case you might only find 1, and have every PC wanting it, or be giving the crafter too much power or 'political influence' on his peers).

[Runestar]

Wow. That is so cheesy that I have to watch it!:smallbiggrin:

The video has been deleted from youtube, but try googling for Kamen Rider OOO episode 2 (it's the 2nd part of the show).

Coin-operated power rangers...now I have seen everything! :smallcool:

[faceroll]

The random / organic treasure point is irrelevant: that just means that a Belt of Battle will be available in a smaller fraction of campaigns. It doesn't make it any less OP or worth the 12K when it is available. If anything it makes the balance more of an issue (b/c in that case you might only find 1, and have every PC wanting it, or be giving the crafter too much power or 'political influence' on his peers).

Wasn't commenting on the BoB specifically, but that the argument where one is given an entire set of equipment to sample from, confined only by WBL listed in the DMG, isn't exactly how wealth works out. Due to the cost of random treasure turn around, less than optimal gear may be kept and used despite the listed cost. Here are two examples for why the local optimization maxima isn't always the global:
1) You aren't near any handy shops. You spend 3 levels hauling gold around and can use only what drops.
2) The 1/2 gold from a random drop (split evenly in the party) is less than the utility that a single party member could get from using that item. That circlet of blasting, sold for 1/2 cost, in a party of 4, nets each player 875 gold. If, at that level, no one player can get something worth 875 gold (say, they have to save up), the over all benefit in the short term will outweigh long term investments.

[bokodasu]

So the way to make the circlet of blasting worth using is to not let the players have anything more useful than a circlet of blasting?

Well, yeah, I guess so.

[faceroll]

So the way to make the circlet of blasting worth using is to not let the players have anything more useful than a circlet of blasting?

Well, yeah, I guess so.

Are you purposefully being obtuse, or was what I wrote confusing?

[bokodasu]

Your two examples were:

1) The players don't have a current opportunity to buy something better than a CoB

or

2) The players can't afford anything better than the CoB.

In which case, yes, using it is better than not using it. And also a) true of just about anything, and b) does not actually make it a good item. If it shows up when the players are at a level where they'll be getting treasure of that listed value, they should have something better to do on pretty much any given round.

[Tyndmyr]

One thing about the Belt of Battle that bothers me...

It's the best belt in the game. Period. Once you can afford a Belt of Battle, there are really only two belts you should consider wearing - a Belt of Battle, or a combination item involving the Belt of Battle. I'm not saying that a BoB is everyone's top priority (I, for one, often go for a +4 stat booster before a BoB), but that if you get to cherry pick your items, I can't think of a character that wouldn't want to end up with a BoB.

And the real thing is that this is is not class specific.

I really like the MIC. IMO, it might add more to the game than any other 3.5 sourcebook. But when there is never a question of whether you want to get a certain item, there's something wrong.

Nah. Belt of the Wide Earth is an easy contender for casters, especially sorcerers.

First, it's dirt cheap.

Second, it doubles carrying capacity. Str is a dump stat for them anyway, so this ensures you don't accidentally screw yourself carrying a few things.

Third, it's part of a set, and thus, provides you with bonuses in conjunction with the other cheap and awesome items.

Fourth, It lets you spont sub out spells for teleport. Even if you don't already know teleport. This is crazy awesome if, like most casters, you enjoy being flexible.