Elan´s Rapier

[faustin]

Maybe it´s to late to write a post about, but i think the rapier is a very undervalued weapon in the comic. I remember scenes when Elan´s weapon is bended like a car antenna (in the first fight against Nale, the first encounter with Tarquin) when in reality rapiers are quite durable and solid (we are talking about a civilian weapon like japanese katanas, not a true militar weapon) and VERY deadly when combined with Renaissance styles like the famous La Verdadera Destreza from Spain.
I mean, nobody made laughs of Crystal only because her primary weapon was a dagger (her intelligence score was another thing) and even Haley recognised her as a menacing nemesis in fight.

R.P: And then again, I apologize because my bad English. I´m still working on it.

[Marnath]

I'm not seeing what your point is. Elan's rapier is underused because he is a poor swordsman, not because rapiers are bad.

[faustin]

At the point to meet Tarquin, Elan was a pretty competent swordman (as is showed in the dessert fight against the slavers bugmen). Besides, Elan ability has no relation with the rapier structure (the "bending" question).
Not to mention the strip nº 17.

[suszterpatt]

Next you'll be asking how Durkon cut the giant octopus' tentacle with a hammer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html). :P

[Draconi Redfir]

i think he might be asking why a bendable weapon like a rapier can hold firm against a normal sword?


or why a sturdy weapon like a rapier bends like an antenna in early comics?

idk

[Marnath]

I'm still not sure what you're talking about, OP.

[Felhammer]

The Rapier is the thinnest and most finesse-oriented sword in the core game, its only natural for that to morph into jokes about its frailty and weakness.

In all honest when people say Rapier, they think Fencing swords more than real-life rapiers. :smallfrown:

[Marnath]

The Rapier is the thinnest and most finesse-oriented sword in the core game, its only natural for that to morph into jokes about its frailty and weakness.

In all honest when people say Rapier, they think Fencing swords more than real-life rapiers. :smallfrown:

Real rapiers are used basically the same way though, right? They're sturdy blades but you still whip them around like that don't you? I'm drawing from The Musketeer here, so feel free to alleviate my ignorance if i'm wrong.

[Gorgondantess]

Yes, rapiers are quite durable and solid. Note that Elan could still use his rapier after bending it like that.
In actuality, it depends on the rapier. Could most rapiers bend like a car antennae? No. Could some? Well, that's putting far too much stress on the weapon, but yeah, they could.
Secondly, it's a civilian weapon. Nobody would use a rapier in warfare. Nobody. A death by rapier is a slow death, and an impractical one- poking little holes in someone, they aren't going to die quickly. It's like shooting them with a .223- it's meant to wound, not kill. The only way to kill somebody with a rapier is stab them many times so they bleed out (lengthy and difficult and they can still act while they're dying), stabbing them in the heart so they bleed out (requires too much precision) or stabbing them in the eye & going to the brain. Again, requires too much precision. Maybe stabbing them in the neck, too. Is it a lethal weapon? Sure. Is it a deadly one? Hardly.
The rapier evolved to be used as a sport, not in actual combat- for gentleman's duels to first blood, a rapier is pretty much exactly what you want.
In an adventure-type situation, I'd rather have a club than a rapier. At least that way I can incapacitate my enemy. Rapiers are for flashiness & for sport & for wounding, not for incapacitating or killing.

[Marnath]

No, a .22 is absolutley designed to kill...small animals. Not effective vs humans usually, but that's not a design thing.

[blackjack217]

from my admittedly limited knowledge you can slash someone with a rapier. That is why in fencing you can score with the flat of the blade as well as the point, unlike epee or foil.

[JustIgnoreMe]

when Elan´s weapon is bended like a car antenna (in the first fight against Nale, the first encounter with Tarquin) when in reality rapiers are quite durable and solid
People think about those kind of weapons as bendy, because they're more familiar with the fencing versions (foil, épée, sabre) which do bend when they strike (for safety). Plus, it's tough for a comic to show someone getting run through with a weapon... and surviving. We can accept that Roy takes multiple little cuts from a broadsword, but we can't accept that he can survive the same number of through-and-through punctures. I blame Hollywood :smallbiggrin:

[fknm]

No, a .22 is absolutley designed to kill...small animals. Not effective vs humans usually, but that's not a design thing.
A .22 and a .223 are not the same thing.

And you'd better believe that a .223 will kill someone. It's incredibly similar to the 5.56 mm round that the M16 and M4 use (close enough that it can actually be fired out of either of those guns safely and reliably), which has proven more lethal than the 7.62 mm round that the Warsaw Pact weapons use.

[Marnath]

I thought the 3 was a typo. :smallredface:
I don't know as much about ammunition as I could. Mostly I know about handguns and shotguns, because you can't use rifles where I live anyway.

[Cerlis]

I should be resentful that you compared a rapier to a Katana. Basically the most expensively made sword capable of cutting through bullets and other swords!

:smalltongue:

but mostly i'm just glad someone eventually got what you where saying and answered your question well enough.

Its one of the thinest swords out there. So its pretty much Gag fodder. If you want to show Elan being ineffective against somebody, just have his skinny weapon bend when he strikes. Very simular to how some shows/cartoons show someone getting hit on the head and not being phased, but much easier to depict in a picture

[faustin]

I should be resentful that you compared a rapier to a Katana. Basically the most expensively made sword capable of cutting through bullets and other swords!

Sorry "Tarantino" :smalltongue:, but real katanas are more like great scalpels, designed mainly for slashing flesh than bones (although the CAN cut human bones, it´s impossible for them to cut a person in two), much less armor or other sword (Kill Bill) because its inherent fragility. In the Sengoku period (a war period) , samurais primary weapons were the bow (yumi) and the spear (yari). In the Edo period (peace) katanas were used in duels between two armorless samurai.
In respect to the rapier, his original function was thrusting thorught the armor holes, before get adapted to civilian duels. Even if it wasn´t spicifically designed to kill, in the right hands could be fearsome because his speed and thrusting capacity for penetrate the skin and puncture vital organs.

[Anterean]

Sorry "Tarantino", but real katanas are more like great scalpels, designed mainly for slashing flesh than bones (although the CAN cut human bones, it´s impossible for them to cut a person in two), much less armor or other sword (Kill Bill) because its inherent fragility. In the Sengoku period (a war period) , samurais primary weapons were the bow (yumi) and the spear (yari). In the Edo period (peace) katanas were used in duels between two armorless samurai.

I direct your attention to Cerlis' ":smalltongue:" which usually indicate the message is tongue-in-cheek (e.g. ironic)

[Lord Bingo]

A .22 and a .223 are not the same thing.

And you'd better believe that a .223 will kill someone. It's incredibly similar to the 5.56 mm round that the M16 and M4 use (close enough that it can actually be fired out of either of those guns safely and reliably), ...

It is not "incredibly similar" it is the same thing! 5.56mm = 0.223

The soviet 7.65mm is "incredibly similar" to NATO's 7,62mm and actually the AK47 was built to tolerances that allowed it to utilize NATO ammunition.

[hamishspence]

The rapier in OoTS is probably at its worst here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html

where it's broken just by Elan pressing it too hard against the wall in surprise, when Belkar shouts.

Wouldn't a well placed stab to the right organ (kidney?), cause the target to collapse in agony even if it doesn't actually kill them?

If so, then rapiers might not be all that impractical in a fight- at least the fairly heavy, fairly stiff, edged rapiers used by real fighters of the era- rather than sharpened fencing foils.

[Spiryt]

Sons.... (And daughters, I guess) - I am a disappoint.


You're talking about OotS "normal" D&D world, with giant frying pan look a like double axes, people being impaled on sword and thrown around, and other pleasures. And the one that was meant mainly as a JOKE, especially in the dark times of first strips.

And at the same time you're trying to fit real world rapiers here, and your sources seem to involve " The Musketeer" :smalltongue:

[Orzel]

I am disappoint too. All this rapier talk. Elan can't fight so he gets a rapier. Needs more axe talk.

And talk of selfish intelligent weapons who wont stop talking about force flavor ice cream.


Orzel's axe: More ice cream!

Quiet, you.

[Anterean]

The rapier in OoTS is probably at its worst here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html

where it's broken just by Elan pressing it too hard against the wall in surprise, when Belkar shouts.



Actually I think it is sundered by Belkar's outburst in it self, given that he in panel four says he could sunder it by speaking loudly.

So his "Damn it!" has the effect of a shatter spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm)

This is of course even worse.

[Cerlis]

Sorry "Tarantino" :smalltongue:, but real katanas are more like great scalpels, designed mainly for slashing flesh than bones (although the CAN cut human bones, it´s impossible for them to cut a person in two), much less armor or other sword (Kill Bill) because its inherent fragility. In the Sengoku period (a war period) , samurais primary weapons were the bow (yumi) and the spear (yari). In the Edo period (peace) katanas were used in duels between two armorless samurai.
In respect to the rapier, his original function was thrusting thorught the armor holes, before get adapted to civilian duels. Even if it wasn´t spicifically designed to kill, in the right hands could be fearsome because his speed and thrusting capacity for penetrate the skin and puncture vital organs.

and the real katanas that people still make the way they did back then that have been tested and slice through bullets and claymores?

And i'm not talkin' bout the cheap swords you give to footsoldiers.

[Barstro]

Nobody would use a rapier in warfare. Nobody. A death by rapier is a slow death, and an impractical one- poking little holes in someone, they aren't going to die quickly. It's like shooting them with a .223- it's meant to wound, not kill.

Well, now you are saying that nobody would use apples in a cherry pie. A true, but pointless statement.

Smaller, less powerful, bullets are not designed for "warfare" for your reasons stated. They are often used for assassinations because of that same trait. A bullet that enters the skull but doesn't have enough power to break out of it bounces around inside for a while instead. Pretty damned effective.

A rapier is similar. No, nobody would use it in warfare. It has no legitimate spot in an army. It was designed for, and evolved from dueling. It is a piercing weapon that is also capable of moving quickly enough to parry attacks. Being stabbed in the heart is still a rather quick death. And if the other person is lugging around a battle axe, the one with a rapier can dodge quite well, pick away at the arms and legs until the axer lets down his guard from exhaustion, and stab in the eye.

If we go to Ootsland, most of the enemies fought are not wearing much armor. Those that are still have uncovered places where a rapier can attack. Who cares if it is a slow and painful death? The point is to get the other one down to move on to the next fight and the horde at the end of the campaign.

[faustin]

and the real katanas that people still make the way they did back then that have been tested and slice through bullets and claymores?

And i'm not talkin' bout the cheap swords you give to footsoldiers.

Traditional smithing of katanas is an ardous long process originated by the very low quality of tamahagane (japanese steel). Even if the sword resulting has great quality, western metods of smithing have no need of it because his more plentyful resources of medium-high quality steel (like Damask or Toledo steel).
Still, the very design of katanas is still oriented to slice flesh, never hard materials. It´s not disrespect of the japanese sword, it´s a VERY deadly weapon but only when used according with its porpouse (the same as rapier).

Tip: if you have a traditional (and expensive) katana, never use it against a Claymore or a Broadsword. Seriously:smalltongue:

[John Cribati]

I hear that the average katana could slice three corpses in half (horizontally) in one go in the right hands.

[Spiryt]

Traditional smithing of katanas is an ardous long process originated by the very low quality of tamahagane (japanese steel).

Seeing that tamahagane is was in fact product of long process of smelting quality steel from poor sand ores, I find this statement quite weird.



Still, the very design of katanas is still oriented to slice flesh, never hard materials.

No sword were ever oriented to cut hard materials anyway. So there's not much difference here.

The differences between various weapons can be drawn from the way they handle, and what can you do with them, but people quite maniacally compare it by "what it can cut" and what not...

[Mordaenor]

from my admittedly limited knowledge you can slash someone with a rapier. That is why in fencing you can score with the flat of the blade as well as the point, unlike epee or foil.

Actually you're thinking of "Sabre" fencing with is based on a cavalry weapon that IS used for slashing. The Foil was created as practice (non-lethal) version of the Rapier, although its a considerably lighter and allows you to focus on precision and control. Although the Rapier does have an edge so you could slash with it, but you're not likely to do more than scratch your opponent, and you'll do way more serious damage stabbing with it than slashing.

[Dr.Epic]

I can see how you would be upset, but I it is a fantasy comic and not everything about it is going to be realistic. Look at Roy's sword: he sheaths it across his back, but with a great sword, one's arm isn't long enough to pull the whole sword out that way.

[hamishspence]

Not without a long cut down the sheath, anyway.

[Spiryt]

I can see how you would be upset, but I it is a fantasy comic and not everything about it is going to be realistic. Look at Roy's sword: he sheaths it across his back, but with a great sword, one's arm isn't long enough to pull the whole sword out that way.

Beacuse there's no way to sheathe sword that long comfortably anyway, it's not bad idea to wear it like that anyway. You would just have to take it off from your back, and then draw.

Aside from the fact that it doesn't seem like Roy is using any kind of scabbard, of course.

[Dr.Epic]

Beacuse there's no way to sheathe sword that long comfortably anyway, it's not bad idea to wear it like that anyway. You would just have to take it off from your back, and then draw.

You mean taking several seconds to take off the sheath from your back and then draw it making yourself prone to enemies.


Aside from the fact that it doesn't seem like Roy is using any kind of scabbard, of course.

Then how's it even held up?:smallconfused:

[Spiryt]

You mean taking several seconds to take off the sheath from your back and then draw it making yourself prone to enemies.

So what are you proposing instead? Not taking it off at all?:smalltongue:

That's how very big swords were transported originally, quite often, if you were expecting trouble, you already had it in your hand.

And scabbards, in result, weren't popular at all in their cases, quite often they served just as protection from weather when sword was lying on the cart, or whatever.

And I find it quite funny that we are arguing about details on how Roy carries his sword, while at the same time all other characters take their arrows, potions, ladders, books, or whatever hell knows where from. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

So what are you proposing instead? Not taking it off at all?:smalltongue:

That's how very big swords were transported originally, quite often, if you were expecting trouble, you already had it in your hand.

And scabbards, in result, weren't popular at all in their cases, quite often they served just as protection from weather when sword was lying on the cart, or whatever.

I've seen some fiction portray the solution as a long cut in the scabbard, allowing you to pull the blade free without as much trouble.

Not sure if real two-handed swords were used that way though.

[Dr.Epic]

And I find it quite funny that we are arguing about details on how Roy carries his sword, while at the same time all other characters take their arrows, potions, ladders, books, or whatever hell knows where from. :smalltongue:

I'm arguing that I think it's ironic one person is upset how rapiers are represented when so many other aspects of weapons aren't portrayed accurately.

[Spiryt]

I've seen some fiction portray the solution as a long cut in the scabbard, allowing you to pull the blade free without as much trouble.

Not sure if real two-handed swords were used that way though.

They most probably weren't, as "real two handers" were weapons of war, in 15th, 16th, 17th century there generally weren't many people that were walking around some dungeons, expecting to be ambushed by goblins at any time. :smallwink:

Sword that big was treated like halberd, glaive, or whatever, there wasn't any way to "sheathe" it. If situation came to swords, daggers, maces or any sidearms, one was dropping his "big" thing.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Before we go further down the Katana rabbit hole I think the problems we are having here stem from two points:

European swords/swordplay are not depicted to be much more than sharp sticks/poking each other in media, despite their incredibly complex and ever-evolving nature.
The DnD terms for weapons are horribly inaccurate and over-generalising.

These two together have lead to an unfair depiction of a weapon in a webcomic. So, um, whatever.

[Barstro]

The DnD terms for weapons are horribly inaccurate and over-generalising.

Nonsense. Every real-life sword attack has exactly 5% chance of utter failure and a 5% chance of being critical. I'm just glad that 4.0 FINALLY demonstrates what an actual critical hit is.

[hamishspence]

They most probably weren't, as "real two handers" were weapons of war, in 15th, 16th, 17th century there generally weren't many people that were walking around some dungeons, expecting to be ambushed by goblins at any time. :smallwink:

Sword that big was treated like halberd, glaive, or whatever, there wasn't any way to "sheathe" it. If situation came to swords, daggers, maces or any sidearms, one was dropping his "big" thing.


I was thinking of the William Wallace novel by Nigel Tranter. Still historical fiction, but a whole lot more accurate than some portrayals.