[3.5] Increasing the FS Spells Known

[Thurbane]

Hey all, I’m looking for ways to expand the spells known for a Favored Soul.

The obvious way is with the Extra Spell feat, but as we all know that’s a fairly suboptimal use for a feat.

Reading the rules on gaining a Domain in CD (p. 20), this only increases the spells a FS can select from, and doesn’t increase spells known.

A FS can take the various Initiate feats as per Dragon Magic (p. 15), but these suffer the same problem as adding Domains – it expands the spells he can select from, but again does not actually increase spells known.

Now, the Sorcerer gets a couple of PrCs that expand his spells known (Fiend Blooded, Sand Shaper etc.), but I’m struggling to find an equivalent for the Favored Soul. They also get Runestaffs and Knowstones – AFAIK, there isn’t a divine equivalent (although it would be easy enough for a DM to approve one). The only RAW items I can think of are the Raiment of the Four in the MIC.

So how about it playground – is there other ways to expand the spells known for a Favored Soul? Expanding spells he can selects from isn’t really a problem (the Cleric list is already pretty big)...

Cheers - T

[Psyren]

Knowstones and Runestaves are arcane-only?

They're not that bad off - they get a ton more spells-known than a sorc (17 more I believe), plus they can use Miracle to duplicate any of the lower-level ones.

[Thurbane]

Knowstones and Runestaves are arcane-only?

They're not that bad off - they get a ton more spells-known than a sorc (17 more I believe), plus they can use Miracle to duplicate any of the lower-level ones.
AFAIK, Runestaffs specifically state arcane. Not sure about Knowstones (don't have that issue of Dragon).

True, they do have more spells known than an equivalent level Sorcerer, but expanding it is always nice.

[Kantolin]

The complete champion has domain staves, which I believe are 'divine runestaves' for a domain.

...although as I mention them, I don't recall if it specifies how they interact with spontaneous divinists.

[Thurbane]

The complete champion has domain staves, which I believe are 'divine runestaves' for a domain.

...although as I mention them, I don't recall if it specifies how they interact with spontaneous divinists.
Excellent catch! :smallbiggrin:

...yep, these are ideal. They work almost exactly like Runestaffs, and do indeed function for Favored Souls. Only catch is that you can only cast each spell 1/day, but it's still pretty sweet. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Thurbane]

One last bump...nobody can think of any PrCs or feats that would give extra spells known to a favored soul? I'm sure there must be a couple somewhere (PrCs anyway)...

[JeminiZero]

The obvious way is with the Extra Spell feat, but as we all know that’s a fairly suboptimal use for a feat.

See if you can swing Extra Spell Known: Greater Anyspell. Its doesn't have quite the same combat utility, unless you can prepare ahead of schedule, and technically, the writeup of Anyspell specifies it must be held in a domain slot. But if your DM lets you use it, it can fill out a lot of downtime/utility stuff (Animate Dead, Wall of Stone, Sending just from the Cleric List).


One last bump...nobody can think of any PrCs or feats that would give extra spells known to a favored soul? I'm sure there must be a couple somewhere (PrCs anyway)...

Mystic Theurge + Versatile Spellcaster: Technically speaking, Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast any spell "you know", not necessarily drawing from the spell list of the slots of the class you are casting from. In other words, a Sorc/FS/MT can technically use Versatile Spellcaster to cast Sorc spells from FS slots (and vice versa). Or you could use Beguiler, Warmage or Dread Necro for your arcane class. The large gain in versatility might make this worthwhile even without early qualification tricks, depending on the optimzation level of your party.

It gets laughably broken, if you consider the standard definition of wizards spells known is "anything in my spellbook". So a Wiz/FS/MT can spontaneously ass-pull whatever is in his Wiz spellbook with FS slots.

[Thurbane]

The Versatile Spell caster + Theurge is an interesting trick. A lot of DMs might put the brakes on it, but I think it's RAW legal.

[faceroll]

Church Inquisitor grants the law domain at 2nd level, Contemplative grants any domain at 1st level. Holt Warden grants the Plant domain at 2nd level, I think.

[Curmudgeon]

Now, the Sorcerer gets a couple of PrCs that expand his spells known (Fiend Blooded, Sand Shaper etc.), but I’m struggling to find an equivalent for the Favored Soul. They also get Runestaffs and Knowstones – AFAIK, there isn’t a divine equivalent
I just checked Dragon # 333 (page 93), and Knowstones can be used by any spontaneous caster if the spell is on their spell list and the level is doable. The price is (spell level)2 x 1,000 gp each. So they're ideal for your Favored Soul.

[Thurbane]

Church Inquisitor grants the law domain at 2nd level, Contemplative grants any domain at 1st level. Holt Warden grants the Plant domain at 2nd level, I think.
True - but as noted above, unfortunately adding domains to the FS only increases spells he can chose from, not actually spells known.

I just checked Dragon # 333 (page 93), and Knowstones can be used by any spontaneous caster if the spell is on their spell list and the level is doable. The price is (spell level)2 x 1,000 gp each. So they're ideal for your Favored Soul.
Great, thanks for looking that up. :smallsmile:

[nedz]

The feats Spontaneous Healer and Spontaneous Summoner are options to consider.

The following route may be possible, but requires a lot of investment:

You can get domains from various PrCs.
What you then need is the Domain Spontaneity feat.
Unfortunately to qualify for that you need to be able to Turn or Rebuke Undead.
The various elemental domains don't help since it has to be Turn or Rebuke Undead.

The easy way to do this might seem to be: take a level of cleric, but this wouldn't help because it would then only apply to your cleric domains/levels.

So the problem now becomes: Find a PrC which grants Turn or Rebuke Undead.

I looked at Radiant Servant of Pelor, but this doesn't work because it requires the feat Extra Turning, which in turn requires Turn or Rebuke Undead as a pre-req; catch-22.
However: if you had already acquired the Undeath domain then this grants Extra Turning as a domain power. I'm not sure how this squares wth the Alignment requirement of RSoP though.

A Level of Sacred Exorcist or Ur-Priest would seem to do the job for you; though there may be other PrCs out there.

[Thurbane]

Spontaneous healer and Spontaneous Summoner are good ideas, thanks.

I'm not so sure about Domain Spontaniety: the wording says you can convert "prepared" spells, so I'm not sure a spontaneous caster could use this feat.

[HunterOfJello]

Spontaneous Cleric/Sovereign Speaker is what you're really looking for.

Spontaneous Clerics get all their domain spells onto their spells known. Sovereign Speaker gives tons of bonus domains. Result = tons of spontaneous cleric and domain spells known.

[Kantolin]

Would the Celestial Mystic (book of exalted deeds) work for this, actually? With the 'Celestial Spells' ability.

[Thurbane]

Would the Celestial Mystic (book of exalted deeds) work for this, actually? With the 'Celestial Spells' ability.
That is another great pickup! It would effectively add all the Cleric spells with an Archon or Celestial component to his list. :smallsmile:

Spontaneous Cleric/Sovereign Speaker is what you're really looking for.

Spontaneous Clerics get all their domain spells onto their spells known. Sovereign Speaker gives tons of bonus domains. Result = tons of spontaneous cleric and domain spells known.
Not quite sure what you mean by spontaneous cleric?

[Curmudgeon]

Sand Shaper requires arcane spellcasting, but if you've also got Favored Soul levels you'll get those spells added to both lists.

[Psyx]

One last bump...nobody can think of any PrCs or feats that would give extra spells known to a favored soul? I'm sure there must be a couple somewhere (PrCs anyway)...


There's the acolyte or whatever they're called feats... In one of the FR books, and I think that there's more of the same in RoD.

[Last Laugh]

Spontaneous Cleric/Sovereign Speaker is what you're really looking for.

Spontaneous Clerics get all their domain spells onto their spells known. Sovereign Speaker gives tons of bonus domains. Result = tons of spontaneous cleric and domain spells known.

Spontaneous cleric is a variant in Unearthed Arcana.
It pretty much converts the cleric to a Favored Soul+ gaining all domains/class features and adding domains to spells known. 43 spells known at 20th, 9 of which are 0 levels

[Amphetryon]

Use Doc Roc's Dragonsblood Pool trick.

[Psyren]

That is another great pickup! It would effectively add all the Cleric spells with an Archon or Celestial component to his list. :smallsmile:

Not to burst your bubble, but it actually wouldn't. All the "Celestial Spells" ability lets you do is cast spells with a Celestial/Archon component; you still have to get them on your list and/or in your spells known normally.

e.g. a FS/CM gains the ability to cast Crown of Brilliance, but he still must learn it first.

[Kantolin]

Not to burst your bubble, but it actually wouldn't. All the "Celestial Spells" ability lets you do is cast spells with a Celestial/Archon component; you still have to get them on your list and/or in your spells known normally.

I dunno, reanalyzing it, it says 'as long as he could otherwise cast the spell', with the qualifiers of:



it appears on his spell list, it is of a level of
spells that he can cast, and he has a sufficient ability score to
cast spells of that level

Now granted, there wasn't (to my knowledge) a spontaneous divinist, but it certainly seems like a sorceror would just grab them too. It's just not helpful for beguilers or the like (For whom none of the spells are on their spell list).

[Psyren]

I dunno, reanalyzing it, it says 'as long as he could otherwise cast the spell', with the qualifiers of:



Now granted, there wasn't (to my knowledge) a spontaneous divinist, but it certainly seems like a sorceror would just grab them too. It's just not helpful for beguilers or the like (For whom none of the spells are on their spell list).

All it gives you is the ability to ignore the "Archon" or "Celestial" component. It does not teach you every spell with that component, i.e. add them to your spells known.

For Clerics it doesn't matter, because they know every spell on the Cleric list anyway. Favored Souls are not so lucky.

[Tokuhara]

I suggest Sacred Exorcist & Contemplative dips with Walker in the Waste and Sovereign Speaker.

1. You get loads of spells and whatnot and most are known
2. Domains, domains, domains
3. You become a fricken Dry Lich at the end of the class!!!

[Last Laugh]

I suggest Sacred Exorcist & Contemplative dips with Walker in the Waste and Sovereign Speaker.

1. You get loads of spells and whatnot and most are known
2. Domains, domains, domains
3. You become a fricken Dry Lich at the end of the class!!!

What does walker in the waste give besides Dry Lich Template? (cha-->HP is nice tho, +4 wis, +racial skills)
All I'm seeing is a 1/day spell like ability, no added spells known/domains.
Doesn't seem that great to me.

Getting access to shadowcraft mage would greatly expand your versatility and let you cast many different spells (but does not increase spells known)
For easy access pick up silent image, 1 other illusion spell, and Dark Way from SpC. it is the only cleric spell in the book with the Shadow descriptor. Heighten it to 4th level and enjoy Shadowcraft Mage. (Transform silent illusion to any evocation/Conjuration(summoning)/Conjuration(Creation). you probably already knew that)

[Curmudgeon]

Getting access to shadowcraft mage would greatly expand your versatility and let you cast many different spells (but does not increase spells known)
For easy access pick up silent image, 1 other illusion spell, and Dark Way from SpC. it is the only cleric spell in the book with the Shadow descriptor. Heighten it to 4th level and enjoy Shadowcraft Mage.
For easier access, simply acquire Skull of Secrets (Magic of Faerûn, page 119): 4th level Cleric Illusion (Shadow) spell. You won't need to spend a feat on Heighten Spell.

[Last Laugh]

For easier access, simply acquire Skull of Secrets (Magic of Faerûn, page 119): 4th level Cleric Illusion (Shadow) spell. You won't need to spend a feat on Heighten Spell.

Good catch, I don't have that book and just did a quick scan of SpC.

That said I really like Heighten Spell for Spontaneous casters. It can save spells known.

[Thurbane]

All it gives you is the ability to ignore the "Archon" or "Celestial" component. It does not teach you every spell with that component, i.e. add them to your spells known.

For Clerics it doesn't matter, because they know every spell on the Cleric list anyway. Favored Souls are not so lucky.
By my reading, a Favored Soul meets the criteria listed in the ability:

It appears on his spell list (the favored Soul's spell list is the Cleric spell list) - check

...of course, he has to be able to cast that level of spell, and have a sufficiently high CHA score.

[Ernir]

Getting yourself to count as an arcane caster, then buying a Drakehelm (Explorer's Handbook) would do the trick.

[Thurbane]

Getting yourself to count as an arcane caster, then buying a Drakehelm (Explorer's Handbook) would do the trick.
Indeed - this would also up classes like Sand Shaper, Fiend Blooded and Frost Mage...

Southern Magician (Races of Faerûn), Alternative Source Spell (Dragon 325) and the Dragonsblood Pool (Complete Mage) all come to mind. Check them out, see whether you like any of them, and then ask your DM. :smalltongue:
From this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168783).

[Thurbane]

Just thought of another option: Improved Oneiromancy (HoH). The spells are very situational, relying on dreamland/nightmare realms being in used in the campaign.

Just re-read the feat...just like most other options (extra domains, Initiate feats etc. they only expand the spells you have access to learn, not to your spells known. :smallfrown:

[Kantolin]

This suggestion has problems as they're not technically spells, plus it takes an adaptation...

....the 'Pact-Bound Adept', in its adaptation, states that through it:


For example, a favored soul or warmage might use this class to qualify for dragonpacts as if he were a sorceror

Thus you'd use the dragontouched feat instead. That opens up some very neat options for a favored soul too.

Edit: As a note, to cite sources, this is from Dragon Magic (pg43)

[Jack_Simth]

There's also Mother Cyst, from Libris Mortis. All the spells it grants have the [Evil] tag, though.

[Grim Reader]

One last bump...nobody can think of any PrCs or feats that would give extra spells known to a favored soul? I'm sure there must be a couple somewhere (PrCs anyway)...

Sand Shaper.

I am away from books, but I believe you can qualify with a spell-like ability, such as the lesser Aasimars "light" ability. Once you do, Desert Insight adds all the spells to your spells known.

[Person_Man]

Homebrew option (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57097)?

Otherwise, Sovereign Speaker from Faiths of Eberron is definitely the way to go.

[Thurbane]

Sand Shaper.

I am away from books, but I believe you can qualify with a spell-like ability, such as the lesser Aasimars "light" ability. Once you do, Desert Insight adds all the spells to your spells known.
I hadn't noticed that before: "Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 5th.". I think the heritage feats that grant SLAs would also work for this. Nice catch. :smallsmile:

Homebrew option (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57097)?
That looks good, but I'm really looking for RAW methods.

Otherwise, Sovereign Speaker from Faiths of Eberron is definitely the way to go.
I'm not that familiar with the class, but doesn't that just add a bunch of domains? If so, it would increase the spell list, but not spells known.

[Person_Man]

I'm not that familiar with the class, but doesn't that just add a bunch of domains? If so, it would increase the spell list, but not spells known.

That is true. The key is that it adds many arcane spells, which tend to have a wider application compared to divine spells. And IIRC you get 1 new domain every level of the class, giving you a huge list to choose from. For example, it shouldn't be that hard to cobble together a list that includes Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Anyspell, Greater Anyspell, Shadow Evocation, Shadow Conjuration, Acid Fog, Limited Wish, Alter Self, Antimagic Field (at spell level 6 instead of 8), Disjunction, Time Stop, and other Batman favorites.

With these in your arsenal, you have much more latitude to choose whatever you want with your other spells known. If you're worried about not being too cheesy, then only use the spells for practical applications. Then even just limiting yourself to Alter Self and the Any/Shadow spells should cover literally dozens of other spells known.