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Elfstone
2010-11-10, 09:08 PM
Fundamentally, what is the difference between the two? And which one is better? I have not read any pathfinder books, only heard things about them. Mostly that they don't fix anything.

Any answers playgrounders?

Starbuck_II
2010-11-10, 09:13 PM
Fundamentally, what is the difference between the two? And which one is better? I have not read any pathfinder books, only heard things about them. Mostly that they don't fix anything.

Any answers playgrounders?

They are online (mostly like SRD is)
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

Good:
Condensed skills
Gain feats sooner (get third feat at level 5 not 6)
At will Cantrip
CMD instead of grapple check to defend
Races get more bonuses (stats at least) without LA
Less Sneak attack immunity
Barbs gor Rage powers (extra rage abilities: some sadly 1/day)

Bad:
Combat Maneuvers are harder to boost (they weakened Improved trip, Improved grapple, etc)
Rogues have less ways to qualify for sneak attack
Barb/Bard have rounds/day instead of uses a day for their abilities. Normally a inspire courage or rage lasts whole encounter, but now you have to keep track of every single round (hope you have enough).

AslanCross
2010-11-10, 09:14 PM
Saph has a rather comprehensive guide. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7607412#post7607377)

Pathfinder does make some options more viable. The Barbarian can do more things while raging, and it grants some customization options. Your barbarian can become more defensive, or he can become Michael Phelps with Raging Swimmer.

The Sorcerer gets bloodline spells (improving her spell selection) and some cool abilities depending on what her bloodline comes from.

The rogue also gets cool talents.

Many monsters were tweaked.

Susano-wo
2010-11-10, 09:20 PM
adds cool new features and doodads to all the classes, aside from Druid.

Pretty much every class at least arguably gets improvements, aside from the ol druid. and Paladins are less MAD, monks have more cool stuff but are still MAD.
(og, feats are every odd lvl now >:]
In fact their explicit design goal was to eliminate dead levels

Oh! and all combat maneuvers are the same roll! which is awesome. every maneuver (aside from grapple, I think) is roll combat maneuver bonus +mods vs static Combat maneuver defense. If you fail by over 5, the bad stuff, if any, happens. Though I understand that the can be harder to pull off now, just because of the bonuses involved.

some of the worst offenders with magic in core get nerfed, such as Polymorph (and Wildshape) and Divine Power. Some feats (power attack for instance) have both a buff and nerf(it gives a better effect pound per pound, but you cant dial it up and down, and it only goes for a certain % of your BA.

Its not a total fix, but it gives nifty boosts to most of the classes, as well as some fun flavorful things all around (0th lvl spells are at will, for instance)

Draconi Redfir
2010-11-10, 09:23 PM
Clerics also get bonus spells each leavel thanks to their domains, and not just spells off the spell list, actualy cool ones.



Pathfinder is essentually the stepping stone between 3.5 and 4th ed. you can play 3.5 with a pathfinder charicter no problem, and you just need to master your classes powers and the extra defences granted by 4th ed in order to play that.

Ulmaxes
2010-11-10, 11:39 PM
Pathfinder's primary three bonuses (imo) are thus:

1. Skills are simplified. Not oversimplified, just simplified. This is good.

2. Epicness. No, that's not a joke. Everything is more beefy- classes get more cool toys, characters are inherently stronger and tougher. Sorcerers go from being "ok I have spells" to "Dude, check out this sweet bloodline!. Fighters go from "Dude, I have feats!" to "Dude, I have a FREAKING CRAP-TON OF FEATS and some cool class abilities too!"
This is VERY good.

3. CMB/CMD: no longer must even grizzled veterans argue for hours over whether some weird trip attempt counts.

As a side bonus, all the artwork in the actual books is AMAZING. I oogled for hours just over the pictures.

Thurbane
2010-11-10, 11:47 PM
As a side bonus, all the artwork in the actual books is AMAZING. I oogled for hours just over the pictures.
On that note...do the books have an online art gallery, like the 3.5 Wizards books did? Wayne Reynolds was one of my favorite D&D artists, and I always enjoy looking at his pictures (I believe he does a lot of work for Pathfinder).

Mojo_Rat
2010-11-11, 12:26 AM
Theres no online gallery that i know of, though alot of the art is availble via googles image search. Find the names of all the iconics andd google search them and should get some nice images.

AslanCross
2010-11-11, 08:07 AM
On that note...do the books have an online art gallery, like the 3.5 Wizards books did? Wayne Reynolds was one of my favorite D&D artists, and I always enjoy looking at his pictures (I believe he does a lot of work for Pathfinder).

Go to the Paizo website and search the Wayne Reynolds tag. They post all of the character art he does.

Greenish
2010-11-11, 08:15 AM
Wayne Reynolds was one of my favorite D&D artistsMine too. He has an online gallery (http://www.waynereynolds.com/), and as mentioned Paizo's website (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/tags/wayneReynolds) has much of his work.

Grifthin
2010-11-11, 09:16 AM
Our group went over to pathfinder a few months ago. I won't ever go back to 3.5.

Classes are better, Single classing is stronger.
Combat maneuvers of various types are easier to do and size modifiers decreased.
Awesome feats like being able to stun/stagger/blind on crits etc.
Combined PHB + DMG in 1 book is win.
Artwork is gorgeous.
Some of the most OP spells where nerfed.
Races got overhauled.
Skills condensed and more skill points all round.

Honestly it plays like a well oiled and trimmed version of 3.5, just more awesome.

Gametime
2010-11-11, 12:04 PM
Barb/Bard have rounds/day instead of uses a day for their abilities. Normally a inspire courage or rage lasts whole encounter, but now you have to keep track of every single round (hope you have enough).

Saph posted some calculations of the rage change; while the barbarian technically can rage for as many rounds per day any more, it gains a lot of flexibility in when to rage. When rage was measured in chunks, you'd often lose potential "rounds" since a single rage lasts longer than a standard combat. It's not really a nerf, since the Pathfinder barbarian should still have enough rage rounds to cover the four encounters for a day.

The bard change is a nerf, because unlike the barbarian the 3.5 bard wasn't restricted by time; he could just keep singing all day, if he really wanted to. That's not possible any more.

Greenish
2010-11-11, 12:18 PM
Saph posted some calculations of the rage change; while the barbarian technically can rage for as many rounds per day any more, it gains a lot of flexibility in when to rage. When rage was measured in chunks, you'd often lose potential "rounds" since a single rage lasts longer than a standard combat. It's not really a nerf, since the Pathfinder barbarian should still have enough rage rounds to cover the four encounters for a day.But PF rage drops if you get knocked unconscious, and thus your current hp drops and you die.

Gametime
2010-11-11, 12:25 PM
But PF rage drops if you get knocked unconscious, and thus your current hp drops and you die.

Well, yeah, that change is a nerf, but my point was that the change to usage in rounds was, if anything, a net positive.

(On the bright side, you die at -Con in PF, so you are slightly less likely to die just from falling unconscious. At high levels, though, you're definitely boned.)

Draconi Redfir
2010-11-11, 12:59 PM
so question for everyone: Pathfinder being legally adopted by wizards of the coast: good idea or bad idea?

on the plus side, they would get to use WOtC-only monsters like beholders and mind-flayers.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-11, 01:07 PM
so question for everyone: Pathfinder being legally adopted by wizards of the coast: good idea or bad idea?

on the plus side, they would get to use WOtC-only monsters like beholders and mind-flayers.

The good: monsters, Pathfinder can make pathfinder versions of Complete series (I'd love the CV Ninja and CW Samurai), etc.

So I say good situation, but Pathfinder would lose its independence/share profits (it is a business).

arrowhen
2010-11-11, 02:19 PM
A major plus for me is PF's philosophy of adding new options for existing classes rather than constantly spamming new base classes. No more digging through 40 different books to make a character.

What's more, *all* the new rules get added to the SRD!

Susano-wo
2010-11-11, 02:47 PM
yeah, the new options in Advanced Player's guide are awesome

(though some of the alt. favored class options seem...ridiculously good. +1 spell known per level for sorc?!?!?)

Gametime
2010-11-11, 05:09 PM
Yeah, any DM that allows that has automatically made humans the best race for sorcerers, hands down. Getting even half a dozen additional spells is pretty awesome.

On the bright side, it's a great incentive to stay with sorcerer instead of prestiging out.

Susano-wo
2010-11-11, 05:33 PM
Yeah, any DM that allows that has automatically made humans the best race for sorcerers, hands down. Getting even half a dozen additional spells is pretty awesome.

On the bright side, it's a great incentive to stay with sorcerer instead of prestiging out.

oh, for sure...its just patently better than the normal FC bonuses, which I don't like (though I think it should be 2HP anyway, my default is always to take the +1 skills unless I just really don't need those skill points. 2HP/lvl would actually make me think)

grarrrg
2010-11-11, 06:07 PM
Well, yeah, that change is a nerf, but my point was that the change to usage in rounds was, if anything, a net positive.

(On the bright side, you die at -Con in PF, so you are slightly less likely to die just from falling unconscious. At high levels, though, you're definitely boned.)

On the OTHER bright side, Barbarians also get 'Rage Powers', they get the same +Str/Con and whatnot that 3.5 Rage gives, but every even numbered level they also get a choice of additional bonuses while raging. They can increase to-hit, damage, DR, AC... they can also do other things, like a 1-a-day "lay on hands" type effect, Saving bonus/rerolls, more Attacks of Opportunity.
And of special note to multi-class Barbarians is "Moment of Clarity", where they can temorarily suspend the Rage Bonuses/Penalties. This is a huge boon for, and enables Barbarian Gishes. No more "sorry, I'm Raging, I'm too dumb to ______ right now"