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claypigeons
2010-11-10, 10:09 PM
Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raisedead.htm) as per the SRD.


...In addition, the subjectís soul must be free and willing to return. If the subjectís soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw. ...

So, RAW, if the subject is unwilling, the spell just fails.

A DM has Rule 0 at his disposal, and if it doesn't effect players with a roll, then you can pretty much do whatever for the sake of a smooth plot.

But let's say a particularly nasty Evil Overlord wants multiple chances to torture someone to death. If it's an NPC, the mechanics can be handwaved... but in the event that a PC is captured (or is completely and utterly incompetent like most PCs), and is subsequently tortured...

What would the save dc be? Like normal for a spell of that level? Or would it be more convoluted than that? The body is auto-willing...but the soul you're wrenching back from the afterlife... not so much.

Any thoughts? Does something like this already exist in written rule format? Already homebrewed?

bloodtide
2010-11-10, 10:49 PM
But let's say a particularly nasty Evil Overlord wants multiple chances to torture someone to death.


Like B'al did in the SG-1 episode 'Abyss' where he killed O'Neill several times and kept bring him back to life, to kill again.

blackjack217
2010-11-10, 10:57 PM
I would rule that the first DC would be the normal but the second would be an auto pass as your gods will not allow you to be repeatedly stolen because he likes worshipers

Tanuki Tales
2010-11-10, 11:40 PM
I would rule that the first DC would be the normal but the second would be an auto pass as your gods will not allow you to be repeatedly stolen because he likes worshipers

Assuming the setting works like that and assuming the deity in question actually cares.

Wreckingrocc
2010-11-10, 11:47 PM
...Or that the deity has power over souls in their domain at all, for that matter, from being stolen away.

Ashtagon
2010-11-11, 12:43 AM
I recall a sage advice answer in which it was noted that the deceased will know the identity and alignment of the person casting the spell, and can use this as part of a decision on whether to return to life or not.

Which basically means you can generally avoid being raised by hostile powers.

Lix Lorn
2010-11-11, 06:03 AM
If I were doing it, I'd just make a spell of a level higher that didn't have to be willing.
So, Forced Raising at level... 6? Forced Resurrection, level 8. Forced True would have to be epic.

LtPowers
2010-11-11, 07:26 AM
I'd avoid doing it at all. The whole idea renders the safety and security of the afterlife moot, as every soul knows they could be irresistibly called back at any time.

I suppose you could design a cosmology/setting where such a thing was expected and normal, but in core D&D or FR or Greyhawk, I think it's a very bad fit.

A better option would be to make it sort of a one-off thing. Some obscure legend of an intricate fell ritual that the evil overlord had to research for years just to be able to perform once -- and it requires knowing the True Name of the target, as well as a number of other high-level magical protections, wards, and enhancements.

Making it a spell anyone can pick up affects the entire structure of death and afterlife of the campaign setting. And if players lack control over even the final disposition of their characters' souls, that makes for a much different player-DM dynamic, and not for the better.


Powers &8^]

Lix Lorn
2010-11-11, 07:58 AM
That's probably a good point. Maybe make it ritualised, complex, expensive and above all difficult.

claypigeons
2010-11-11, 08:43 AM
I didn't mean to imply it would be a widely available spell. It is intended to be one, maybe 2 people in an entire homebrew (plus one PC if the NG cleric decides he'd like to take up the revenge-torture business... :smallfrown:).

I was just simply asking for possible ideas on what a save DC could/would be if used on a PC. NPCs are fair game, and don't necessarily need one... but I don't like having things happen to PCs without giving them a (reasonable) chance to avoid it.

Thrawn183
2010-11-11, 09:44 AM
If I were doing it, I'd just make a spell of a level higher that didn't have to be willing.
So, Forced Raising at level... 6? Forced Resurrection, level 8. Forced True would have to be epic.

Hah, I can now see someone disintegrating themselves in the middle of the ocean so that they can rest in peace.

(It took a lot to resist a pieces pun, you're welcome.)

Lix Lorn
2010-11-11, 10:20 AM
I didn't mean to imply it would be a widely available spell. It is intended to be one, maybe 2 people in an entire homebrew (plus one PC if the NG cleric decides he'd like to take up the revenge-torture business... :smallfrown:).

I was just simply asking for possible ideas on what a save DC could/would be if used on a PC. NPCs are fair game, and don't necessarily need one... but I don't like having things happen to PCs without giving them a (reasonable) chance to avoid it.
It'd be a will save, right? Probably DC as per the spell. (shrug)

Tanuki Tales
2010-11-11, 11:32 AM
I fail to see how Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection doesn't already negatively affect the cosmology on a scale of Life, Death and Afterlife as is. It would make more sense that very few people even know such magic exists at all in the first place, let alone a Forced version of the spells. (Eberron is a perfect example since users of Divine Magic high enough to use those spells are a scant few.)

PCs shouldn't have a cheap safety net so they can do what ever the hell they want and not have any fear for what the DM does. So the so-called Player/DM dynamic that would be wrecked by these Forced spells being introduced was already pretty wrecked in the first place.


Edit: And I speak from a point of view of more the player than the DM. My current group is so damn coddled from video games that they never expect anything truly bad to happen to their characters and if they actually do die then it ends up just being a speed bump that such spells remedy quickly.

DracoDei
2010-11-11, 11:51 AM
To keep it under control, you might need to make it have to be based on nothing less than True Ressurection. If this is not done, then the process can be used to strip someone first down to level 1 (with no way of returning to previous level), and then to 0 Constitution (no way of returning to life at all). This is very expensive of course, but is even surer than Soul Bind (since there isn't a gem to steal), doesn't require doing it immediately after the person dies (which is usually going to be in-combat), and can be done many levels earlier if the only requirement is a mere 1 spell-level higher than Raise Dead.

Gamer Girl
2010-11-11, 01:53 PM
One way to do this 'in' the rules, is to trick the soul into coming back.

This is where the evil overlord 'lets' the good guys bring back the dead one, then just steps in and takes them and says thanks.

You could also charm or otherwise force a good person to bring the other back.


Maybe even better is don't have the evil overlord 'Kill' the person, just leave them at one hit point.

Or maybe a 'Soul Shield' spell, that prevents dead souls from going to the afterlife?

Satyrus
2010-11-22, 01:06 AM
This looks like it got side-tracked in fluff.

All argues over the use of reviving the dead aside at least one person said that the DC should be based on the spell used to raise them. I agree with that opinion.

DC 10 + level of spell (Raise Dead, True Ressurection, etc.) + stat mod (probably wis since it'll likely be a cleric)

Zeful
2010-11-22, 01:02 PM
Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raisedead.htm) as per the SRD.



So, RAW, if the subject is unwilling, the spell just fails.

A DM has Rule 0 at his disposal, and if it doesn't effect players with a roll, then you can pretty much do whatever for the sake of a smooth plot.

But let's say a particularly nasty Evil Overlord wants multiple chances to torture someone to death. If it's an NPC, the mechanics can be handwaved... but in the event that a PC is captured (or is completely and utterly incompetent like most PCs), and is subsequently tortured...

What would the save dc be? Like normal for a spell of that level? Or would it be more convoluted than that? The body is auto-willing...but the soul you're wrenching back from the afterlife... not so much.

Any thoughts? Does something like this already exist in written rule format? Already homebrewed?
Technically something like this already exists, Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) allows anyone who can get a pound of flesh of the target to make a clone of that character that they will go to after death, no save, no SR.


I recall a sage advice answer in which it was noted that the deceased will know the identity and alignment of the person casting the spell, and can use this as part of a decision on whether to return to life or not.

Which basically means you can generally avoid being raised by hostile powers.
In 3.0 this was the rule (under the magic chapter; raise dead section) so I assume that this is still the rule for 3.5 (though there is no section dealing with raise dead specifically in the srd).

Adamantrue
2010-11-22, 02:22 PM
Technically something like this already exists, Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) allows anyone who can get a pound of flesh of the target to make a clone of that character that they will go to after death, no save, no SR. Sadly, no...
If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return). Good idea, though. Maybe basing something new on this instead, to avoid all Godly Powers issues. Especially so the character can take a good look at his remains, knowing he'll have to go through it all again.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-11-23, 03:30 PM
I'd add the evil descriptor to a forced raise dead spell, your taking a soul from the afterlife forcing it through the ordeal of raising and or what purpose?
Most any motivation would be entirely evil or selfish.


I fail to see how Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection doesn't already negatively affect the cosmology on a scale of Life, Death and Afterlife as is. It would make more sense that very few people even know such magic exists at all in the first place, let alone a Forced version of the spells. (Eberron is a perfect example since users of Divine Magic high enough to use those spells are a scant few.)

Complete Divine explains that the majority of people don't want to be brought back. They accept their dead and choose to remain where ever they have been placed. Only a few have the strength and desire to want to come back to life.


PCs shouldn't have a cheap safety net so they can do what ever the hell they want and not have any fear for what the DM does. So the so-called Player/DM dynamic that would be wrecked by these Forced spells being introduced was already pretty wrecked in the first place.
I suppose you'd also eliminate all weapons with a x3 critical mod[or higher], all save or die spells and anything else that can eliminate a player cheaply. Remember the story dynamic gets screwed over if the entire cast from the start of the campaign has been replaced by different characters by the end.


In 3.0 this was the rule (under the magic chapter; raise dead section) so I assume that this is still the rule for 3.5 (though there is no section dealing with raise dead specifically in the srd).

Its found in the Bringing Back The Dead paragraph in magic overview
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm

Orzel
2010-11-23, 04:36 PM
I'd have to go with 7-9th level. With a 10 HD cap. And limit it to once per soul.

I'd say a deity could let you get away with it once for some random no-name slob. But if you do it again, they might actually intervene and counter the spell.

Only if the target's soul is unclaimed could you possibly suceed more than once.

ericgrau
2010-11-23, 06:25 PM
The spell does mention ways around it. Coercing or dominating a good cleric for example.

Keinnicht
2010-11-25, 12:04 AM
One way to do this 'in' the rules, is to trick the soul into coming back.

This is where the evil overlord 'lets' the good guys bring back the dead one, then just steps in and takes them and says thanks.

You could also charm or otherwise force a good person to bring the other back.


Maybe even better is don't have the evil overlord 'Kill' the person, just leave them at one hit point.

Or maybe a 'Soul Shield' spell, that prevents dead souls from going to the afterlife?

Or:

Step 1: Cast Mind Blank
Step 2: For good measure, cast alter self.
Step 3: Cast raise dead.

This would probably get a soul to come back into the wrong hands at least once. While they might be suspicious, time doesn't flow normally on the outer planes, and therefore he wouldn't be able to go "Wait, I died two minutes ago. My comrades aren't raising me yet." Plus hilarity could ensue when if the soul became paranoid and refused to be raised even by his supposedly neutral good allies.

By the way, note that Mind Blank defeats Wish and Miracle spells. Seems kind of unlikely that whatever mechanism the souls are given to detect their raiser would be superior to a wish spell. The alter self is just in case, it blocks off both telepathic methods of information gathering, and screws up any visual divinations that might inexplicably get through the mind blank.

Zeful
2010-11-25, 12:47 AM
Or:

Step 1: Cast Mind Blank
Step 2: For good measure, cast alter self.
Step 3: Cast raise dead.

This would probably get a soul to come back into the wrong hands at least once. While they might be suspicious, time doesn't flow normally on the outer planes, and therefore he wouldn't be able to go "Wait, I died two minutes ago. My comrades aren't raising me yet." Plus hilarity could ensue when if the soul became paranoid and refused to be raised even by his supposedly neutral good allies.

By the way, note that Mind Blank defeats Wish and Miracle spells. Seems kind of unlikely that whatever mechanism the souls are given to detect their raiser would be superior to a wish spell. The alter self is just in case, it blocks off both telepathic methods of information gathering, and screws up any visual divinations that might inexplicably get through the mind blank.

By the rules that wouldn't work: Someone being raised knows the Identity, Alignment and Patron Deity of the one raising him, none of your methods actually change any of this. It's not a spell, or even a divination. It's not hard to extrapolate that the above information is freely given to your target as part of the casting of raise dead. Short of changing your identity (Helm of Opposite Alignment, Ritual of Renaming) to something that the raisee would accept, you're not going to get around it.

cha0s4a11
2010-11-25, 01:47 AM
If you are going for the "keep reviving someone to repeatedly torture them to death" route, I would recommend the following constraints:

It should requires the person in question's soul to be in a gem that results from either Trap the Soul or Soul Bind if for no other reason then to not have to deal with the issue of yanking someone's soul out of the afterlife in the first place. If their soul is already in your posession, then you should be able to do something like the following:

Projection of Trapped Soul:
Necromancy
Level: ?
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Duration: Up to 1 Hour/Caster Level
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No
Focus Required: Gem containing a soul

When this spell is cast, it creates a body for the soul trapped in the gem and projects that soul into the new body. This new body effectively serves as if the soul in the gem underwent a True Resurrection with the following caveats:


1) If the body dies, the soul automatically returns to the gem that originally contained it.
2) Once the duration of the spell is complete, the body will die (returning the soul to the gem accordingly)
3) So long as the gem used as the focus for this spell is in the caster's possession, the caster may do any of the following to the soul's new body at will as a swift or move action:

a) Reduce the physical attributes of the body (Str, Dex, Con) to any level lower than that of the soul's original body.
b) Reduce the body's HP to any amount (if to less than -10, then the body dies as usual and the soul goes back to the gem)
c) Stun the body for a round.

4) Should the Gem containing the soul be destroyed while this spell is active, the body will be destroyed as well and the soul will be released into the appropriate afterlife.