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WarKitty
2010-11-11, 08:21 AM
I have a sorcerer player who is starting to feel a bit, well, underpowered in one of my games. Now, we're at level 11 and not in a particularly caster-heavy party. He's a true mildly insane CN (the kind that's generally reliable in battle but ought not to be taken in polite company.) So far he's focused on direct damage but I have a feeling he'd enjoy other ways of messing enemies up.

Alleran
2010-11-11, 08:25 AM
Direct damage is rarely a particularly good way to go.

Try this Sorcerer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801). I'm sure there are others out there as well - this is just the one that popped up on the first page of Google.

Psyren
2010-11-11, 10:04 AM
Direct damage is rarely a particularly good way to go.

For sorcerers it's actually pretty viable. See also The Mailman build. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer)

The thought process is that they lack the versatility to be true controllers (like Wizards) so they are better off being the boomstick (unless they are the only arcanist in the party.)

Shadowleaf
2010-11-11, 10:06 AM
For sorcerers it's actually pretty viable. See also The Mailman build. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer)

The thought process is that they lack the versatility to be true controllers (like Wizards) so they are better off being the boomstick (unless they are the only arcanist in the party.)
It does require more effort to build an effecient blaster Sorcerer, than it does building a control Wizard.

Sorcerers are fine versatility/battlefield controllers, it is just that they have to rely on a lesser bag of tricks. Instead of having both Colour Spray and Grease, they might only have Colour Spray.

I would suggest going for solid spells which generally work regardless of level - Finger of Death, Fireball, Haste and the like.

ericgrau
2010-11-11, 10:52 AM
Battlefield control sorcerers work very well. Try picking up some of those spells. At this level wall of force may be your best choice. Cut the big battle into two easy to handle bite size pieces and shazzam you're effective. The only problem is that you can't go back and change all your old spells. For that matter you shouldn't bother with more than 2-3 of the same kind of spell on your list. How did you manage to fill 5 spell levels of sorcerer spells with only damage? I mean 1-2 single target, 1-2 area maybe and then all the remaining spells are a total waste. Even for a blaster you get empower spell / etc. instead, and then even a blaster gets other spells like evard's black tentacles to cluster enemies for your fireballs, etc. So another problem you may be having is that you have 2-4 useful spells and a dozen wasted slots by any standard (whether you like blasters or not). You may want to beg the DM for mercy and get a character rebuild. If so use your lower level spells for out of combat buffs rather than control or damage. As a sorc you usually can't burn all of your many spell slots unless you burn some out of combat. Also find the guy who told you to play a blaster sorc and slap him.

Shadowleaf
2010-11-11, 10:55 AM
The only problem is that you can't go back and change all your old spells.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Yes, you can trade spells as a Sorcerer. :smalltongue:

ericgrau
2010-11-11, 10:56 AM
Yeah, but not all of them, it'll be a slow painful process to fix the dozen problems he has without DM mercy.

Shadowleaf
2010-11-11, 11:01 AM
Yeah, but not all of them, it'll be a slow painful process to fix the dozen problems he has without DM mercy.That is true. I am AFB right now, but I could imagine there being a sort of spell-retraining feature in the PHBII? There should be, anyway.

If I was the DM, I would definitly allow a player to retrain some of his spells, if he was feeling underpowered. You could argue, that it fits the chaotic nature of a Sorcerer's magic.

gbprime
2010-11-11, 11:04 AM
At this level wall of force may be your best choice.

Fact: Wall of Force is the single most entertaining way to stop a cavalry charge, because they cannot SEE it. :smallamused:

Other great ways to muck with a combat include Telekinesis and Swift Etherealness. And the number of awesome 4th level spells could fill a netbook... and have.

If he has a lot of spells to swap out, perhaps he could do some sort of mini-retraining (PHB2) to re-arrange his spell repetoire. Make it have a cost in time, gold, and/or XP so it's not something he can do whenever he wants, but is instead an inconvenient investment.

Escheton
2010-11-11, 11:38 AM
I personally love combustion as a second lvl melee range spell.
Decent fire damage plus the added bonus of actually putting your foe on fire? yes please.

Keld Denar
2010-11-11, 11:38 AM
Simple, effective Sorcerer11 spell list:

0th 9
Any, doesn't really matter...

1st 5
Mage Armor
Grease
Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Clumisness (SpC)
Benign Transposition (SpC)

2nd 5
Scorching Ray
See Invis
Glitterdust
Web
Wings of Cover (RotDragon)

3rd 4
Haste
Slow
Fly
Ray of Dizziness (SpC)

4th 3
Evard's Black Tentacle Rape
Greater Mirror Image (PHBII)
Wings of Flurry (RotDragon)

5th 2
Arcane Fusion (CMage)
Wall of Stone

There, spell list done. Lots of AoE screwage, some decent single target damage (Scorching Ray scales really well at this level ,better than Fireball), and plenty of defense between Greater Mirror Image and Wings of Cover. Utility is covered by Fly and See Invis, and See Invis and Glitterdust combo well. Arcane Fusion is rediculous for 1st turn Ray of Enfeeblement + Evard's Black Tentacle Rape; debuff their Str (and their grapple check) then put the squeeze on them.

That took all of...4 minutes.

Necromas
2010-11-11, 11:45 AM
Obviously for this player it's probably too late to matter, but if you really want to just be a blaster, warmage is a good alternative to sorc.

ericgrau
2010-11-11, 11:53 AM
Simple, effective Sorcerer11 spell list:


Mostly a good list. Any level 5 wall spell is decent, really. There are a lot of other good level 4 spells to consider, too many to fit on a spell list. Really plenty of variations depending on the foes he faces. I'd put conditional low level spells like see invisibility on scrolls because you're unlikely to need them everyday, and a handful of scrolls will take care of it the few times you'd be hosed without it. I'd also try to squeeze in some low level buffs or other out of combat spells like I said before; because you'll never be able to burn through so many spell slots in most campaigns.

WarKitty
2010-11-11, 11:55 AM
Battlefield control sorcerers work very well. Try picking up some of those spells. At this level wall of force may be your best choice. Cut the big battle into two easy to handle bite size pieces and shazzam you're effective. The only problem is that you can't go back and change all your old spells. For that matter you shouldn't bother with more than 2-3 of the same kind of spell on your list. How did you manage to fill 5 spell levels of sorcerer spells with only damage? I mean 1-2 single target, 1-2 area maybe and then all the remaining spells are a total waste. Even for a blaster you get empower spell / etc. instead, and then even a blaster gets other spells like evard's black tentacles to cluster enemies for your fireballs, etc. So another problem you may be having is that you have 2-4 useful spells and a dozen wasted slots by any standard (whether you like blasters or not). You may want to beg the DM for mercy and get a character rebuild. If so use your lower level spells for out of combat buffs rather than control or damage. As a sorc you usually can't burn all of your many spell slots unless you burn some out of combat. Also find the guy who told you to play a blaster sorc and slap him.

I'm the DM; all my players have been given carte blanche to re-work characters as much as they wish. He's a fairly new player, so he just went for the obvious "damage is good and I don't like the fuss of preparing spells."

To be fair several of his spells are filled with stuff like dispel magic, teleport, etc. Our only full casters are a sorc and a bard.

ericgrau
2010-11-11, 12:01 PM
New players building sorcs can be a problem, since they (usually) can't change their mind later. Playing the sorc after it's built will be easy though. I'd lend him a hand on spell choices. I mean let him stick to blasting if he wants to blast, or other spell types he likes, but help with any bad choices like more than a couple of the same kind of spell (even blasty spells) or spells that can't be used every day. Example blasty spells might be scorching ray, fireball, then 1-2 of backup energy types like lightning bolt. Maybe suggest empower spell for blasting, or even certain other variable number spells (e.g., ray of enfeeblement, false life).

Keld Denar
2010-11-11, 01:10 PM
See...See Invis is 10 min/level, and at level 11 thats just shy of 3 hours per day. A simple Least MM Rod of Extend (3000g IIRC) means you can get through a typical 12 hour adventuring day with 2 slots expended. That means you are Seeing Invis all day, every day. You can see invisible threats before they become crippling. If your first inkling that an invisible foe is nearby is 2.5 feet of greatsword protruding from your rib cage, all the scrolls in the world arn't gonna save you.

At lower levels I'd agree with you. At 11+, it lasts long enough and invisible threats are credible enough that I'd be nervous without it up all day.

And yes, I'd encourage the use of Empower spell with my spell list. Empowered Ray of Clumisiness or Enfeeblement is brutal, and Empowered Scorching Ray would result in 18d6 damage from a 4th level slot, much better at this point than an Orb spell or a Wings of Flurry vs a single target. Scorching Ray isn't gonna scale anymore from this point, but at level 11, its about the most optimal blasting spell you can get.

ericgrau
2010-11-11, 01:23 PM
Good point. I should have thought of see invis more of a buff cast out of combat than utility. And a lesser rod of extend spell is a superb item to have for a variety of such buffs.

Zen Monkey
2010-11-11, 01:35 PM
What spells you don't pick can be just as important; avoid duplication. For example, if you want damage, don't take damage at 3rd and 4th when just one of the two is probably enough. Look for spells like the shadow line that can produce more than one effect. The more uses you can find for a spell, the better chance it has for earning a precious sorc slot. Leave the special circumstance and limited use spells to the wizard.

Tokuhara
2010-11-11, 01:40 PM
Wings of Flurry and Doom Scarabs are both excellent Sorcerer Spells for cannon-type sorcerers. Both are 4th level spells, one of which is essentially a 30' Circle of Force that will shred anyone with a craptacular Reflex Save. And did I mention that Wings of Flurry is UNCAPPED? So you can put some serious hurt on any enemy within 30' of you. Enlarge to 60', Maximize to layeth the smacketh down (note: requires some feats)

valadil
2010-11-11, 03:11 PM
For sorcerers it's actually pretty viable. See also The Mailman build. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer)

The thought process is that they lack the versatility to be true controllers (like Wizards) so they are better off being the boomstick (unless they are the only arcanist in the party.)

The thing about direct damage on a sorcerer is that he doesn't need a lot of it, even if he intends to do plenty of DD. Take a single target spell and an AoE spell. Pump the hell out of them with empower and cast them every turn. It's not a huge investment in spell slots. Melf's Unicorn Arrow and Wings of Flurry are both fantastic choices that won't leave you wanting more DD. If you have those, there's no need to have fireball on the list.

Anyway, here's my spell list from the last time I played a Sorc. I did DD when I felt like it and had plenty of other stuff to do when the situation called for it. Spells I took are bolded. Some spells got swapped out, others looked interesting but didn't get picked for whatever reason. I included the level I took the spell in parentheses. I'm also not sure how accurate this is, as it's from a couple years ago and not quite how I remembered it. No idea why Hideous Laughter is prioritized over Glitterdust for instance.


One

* Ray of Enfeeblement (2) [Necro] Ray, SR
* Magic Missile (5) [Evoc] SR
* Mage Armor (2) [Conj] (swapped out at 10 for true cast)
* Grease (3) [Conj] - Ref, No SR
* Shield (7) [Abj]
* True Cast (10) [Complete Mage, adds 10 to next spell pen check] (will swap in if faced with SR, once I can quicken)

Two

* Scorching Ray (5) [Evoc] Ray, SR
* Hideous Laughter (4) [Ench] Will, SR (want to swap out, lacking good twos as options.)
* Glitterdust (11) [Conj] Will, No SR
* Mirror Image (7) [Illus]
* Baleful Transposition (9) (will, SR [Conj] swap places with a target)

Three

* Ray of Exhaustion(6) [Necro] Ray, SR, Fort (exhaust on fail, else fatigued) // Swapping at 10 for fireball or dispel
* Stinky Cloud(7) [Conj] 20' Rad, No SR, Fort (Sickened for d4+1 rounds after leaving cloud) //needed a fort save, can sculpt
* Fireball (11) [Evoc] Ref, SR
* Dispel [Abj]
* Greater Mage Armor (9)(Like mage armor, but +6)

Four

* Black Tentacles (9) [Conj] No Save, No SR (Probably don't need this and stinking cloud on the same list)
* Orb of Force [Complete Mage, this is my high level no SR damage spell] (11) [Conj] Touch, No SR
* Confusion?? (13) [Ench] Will, SR (or Wrack from c. divine. It's like Hideous Laughter but a fort save plus after effects)
* Dimension Door (8) [Conj]
* Resilient Sphere [Evo] Ref, SR (My only reflex save is grease. That should be fixed. This is limited to large or smaller tho)
* Solid Fog (great for slowing down enemies so we deal with them one at a time. how do people feel about more battlefield control?)
* Defenstrating Sphere (Fort Save. SR, Evoc, Sphere lasts round/level. Move action to move it up to 30'. Ranged touch attack to hit something. Deals 3d6. Medium and smaller creatures make fort save or go prone. Creatures that go prone make second fort saved or be tossed up d8x10 feet (dealing (d8)d6 damage) and d6 squares away in a random direction).
* Greater Invis?

Slashing dispel?(11) It's from the PHB2. It's like a dispel magic but when a buff is dispelled deals 2 damage / level of spell to the creature. I think dispel magic is a better spell, but I don't have a spare 3rd level slot thanks to that damn ray. Are people okay with this or should I find a different level 4 spell?
[edit] Five

DC23, 3+1+A/day

* freezing fog. (c. arcane p.111. lvl 5 version of acid fog, does 1d6 cold, also greases. see solid fog)
* Telekinesis (10) [Trans] Will, SR (depends on how we handle my knowledge of NPC weight. Likely to delay till can lift more)
* Cloudkill (13) [Conj] Fort, No SR (depends on TK for maximum use)
* Baleful Polymorph (11) [Trans] Fort, SR (probably taking sooner than 15)
* Wall of Force (10) [Evoc] (Doesn't make sense for Matt to have 2 walls to mem and me zero. This way we can team up and drop two walls per turn if needed.)
* Hold Monster (My will saves are weak right now. Tasha's is nice, but only on humanoids. This is an upgrade.)

ericgrau
2010-11-11, 03:44 PM
Lots of good spells suggested so far. I might as well dig up the list from one of my sorcs:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6787777&postcount=21

I will however nix the shadow spells. Even though they're versatile they're way to weak to be worth anything. I mean 1 level lower and 2 saves instead of 1, or worse 1 save instead of none, plus if a spell wasn't magic after being cast well now it is and can be dispelled / AMF / etc. Bleh.

Toptomcat
2010-11-11, 04:37 PM
I have to energetically second Wings of Flurry and Wings of Cover, particularly Wings of Cover. It's basically an Exalted-style perfect defense: there are very few things in the game that can get around total cover provided by a force effect.

WarKitty
2010-11-11, 04:39 PM
I have to energetically second Wings of Flurry and Wings of Cover, particularly Wings of Cover. It's basically an Exalted-style perfect defense: there are very few things in the game that can get around total cover provided by a force effect.

Since he's already died/almostdied once, I'm sure he will be quite happy to hear about that. (Got one-shotted by an elemental, then fiatted back to life because I realized I had not been clear regarding monster positioning.)