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zephyrkinetic
2010-11-11, 10:15 AM
Caution: Long-winded.

As I mention in my signature, my current table consists of my wife, her brother, my daughter's pediatrician, and a couple of my wife's high-school friends (we live in her hometown; I'm from a couple states away. Woo, military.) Five players total, all but the wife's old friends have played at my table for a while now. New guys are in their first ever D&D campaign.

I started them all out virgin, and they've been levelling quickly, but that's probably because I tend to throw over-powered things at them and then give them loopholes and "cocked dice" rulings once the beer starts flowing a few hours in. :smalltongue: I'm clearly in it for the game to be fun. We're all roleplay-oriented; I don't have to contend with any metagaming. It's also important to note that the party is rarely all five at once; people have jobs, and families, and I created the campaign to be able to work with a revolving door. [Edit:]I run my games on an attendance-necessary system, where you don't get XP/loot if you miss the game, same as you wouldn't get credit for killing the beholder if you decide to go to the tavern while everyone else heads into the sewers. All my players know that they can make arrangements to come whenever they want, and I mentioned the possibility of altar egos when I introduced the Reputation variant rules to this campaign. (added for clarification)

My wife's halfling bard has developed a secret identity for herself, as essentially a vigilante (though she still refuses to take the class) and is doing all kinds of "night-time" adventures throughout the week while my other players remain oblivious. She maintains her "low-level bard" facade when they're around, and only does mid-level bard/rogue things when it's just the two of us. (Don't read too much into that sentence.)

Subsequent to her doing all these extraneous side-quests, she's over twice the second highest-level party member, and has a bunch of pretty sweet equipment, to include a Ring of Arming that she uses to switch her superhero costume and items for her mild-mannered stuff.

So, my question:
Am I subconsciously just giving her special treatment because, well, she's my wife? Or is this legit player activity? I feel like if I could "secretly" meet up with one of the other two more experienced players (the wife's brother, or the good doctor) I'd do the same thing for them. Furthermore, I'm planning adventures for each of the other four to get RSS (read: Really Sweet Stuff) at some point. There's a mech template, some deific blessings, ancestral equipment, draconic intervention, etc. So it'll even out later. I'm just worried that when they inevitably find out what's up, I'll have a riot on my hands. Especially since while they've been doing their "Gather Info" checks in town to find rumors of, y'know, heaps of gold or XP somewhere that need gathering, they've been hearing all about this vigilante character. They think the guy's an NPC. They recently did a whole session where the end result was finding the dead body and already-ransacked loot, with a couple of blackened leaves (the Nom de Plume's trademark) over the dead guy's eyes. So, they were essentially "robbed" of a bunch of XP and gold.

Any suggestions, anecdotes, reassurances? I'm a little lost here. I'm afraid I've created a monster and I can't keep it restrained.

Sipex
2010-11-11, 10:21 AM
I don't think you're favouring her because she's your wife, but you are favouring her by allowing her to have this option, use it extensively and not alert the other players. However, the rest of the players, if they ever learn of this, will think you're favouring her because she's your wife.

I would recommend you either:
A) Inform the other players that they can do out of game stuff for extra loot/exp.
B) Get your wife to agree to split all loot and XP with the party, including what she has already gotten. Then bring up that she's been doing sidequests out of session as her bard to get you guys this stuff.
C) Negate all your wife's progress in game and make two seperate characters. One which you guys play while alone (the rogue) and one which plays with the group (the bard).

Gnaritas
2010-11-11, 10:35 AM
What you are doing is not really fair, you are in fact playing sessions without informing or inviting the other players. They are given no chance to gain XP or treasure, but they are in the same game.
I understand the fun in it, especially if what happens in the "secret" sessions has an effect on the "real" sessions, but i believe it should reward no XP or treasure (or very very minimal, you could let her give all the treasure to her master or something) to keep things on an even scale.

Mikka
2010-11-11, 10:41 AM
Stop what you're doing and run a solo campaign with her, or talk with the others and ask how they feel about it. Anything else just isn't fair.

Shadowleaf
2010-11-11, 10:44 AM
I have seen this with a few of my DM's/Storytellers/etc. My brother is especialy fond of doing this.

I have played in a group which included my brother (the storyteller) and his girlfriend (a player). We started off on the same power level, but I was left behind in the dust after having been away from the campaign for a month.
Apparently, she had a few single sessions with my brother, and while we got experience at the start of sessions (to catch up to her), she would still be miles ahead in sheer other stuff. Her character had aquired a lot of hidden knowledge of the world, she had better equipment, more contacts, she knew what had been going on in town / what was going down in the close future, and so forth.
This was a very bad move by my brother. The other players and I were very unhappy with the way he had handled that. We demanded similar single sessions with equal opportunities.
The result was okay, but in the end my brother still subconsciously favored her. He fudged her dice more, he allowed her to do more outragous stuff, and so forth - even if he did not intend to do so.

This is also why I dislike playing with couples today.

The logic is that actions and doing stuff = experience, and as your wife has done more stuff in game than the other players, she should have more experience.

However, you are indeed giving her an opportunity not presented to the rest of the group. I would not call it playing favourites per se, but it is not exactly fair towards the rest of the group.
As you (assumingly) have more time with her, you have more opportunities for being in-game with her.

There are a few ways to deal with this:

- Do not give her experience for her single sessions. While her character might learn and achieve goals, it simply is not fair to the other players to provide her with benefits. However, since she might gain other in-game advantages, removing experience benefits helps little (as she can still get contacts, for example).

- Provide the opportunity to the rest of the group, and do not play single sessions with your wife until everyone has had one (or several) single sessions. Let them catch up to her level (both character level, but also equipment wise, contact wise, and so forth). Also, do not have any more single sessions with your wife in this time. I would suggest starting a single player campaign with her, letting her play another character in the campaign, or simply 'copying' her halfling and letting her play a copy of that character which has nothing to do with the real one, except stat build and personality (I hope you get what I mean - letting her play a clone of the character in another campaign/a copy of the campaign, but without advancing the real character in any way).

Edit: Also, if you give her experience for regular sessions - don't. While experience is not the only way she is ahead, this will at least slowly close some of the gap. Taking away equipment would also be an idea, but losing toys is never fun.

zephyrkinetic
2010-11-11, 10:46 AM
I don't think you're favouring her because she's your wife, but you are favouring her by allowing her to have this option, use it extensively and not alert the other players. However, the rest of the players, if they ever learn of this, will think you're favouring her because she's your wife.

I would recommend you either:
A) Inform the other players that they can do out of game stuff for extra loot/exp.
B) Get your wife to agree to split all loot and XP with the party, including what she has already gotten. Then bring up that she's been doing sidequests out of session as her bard to get you guys this stuff.
C) Negate all your wife's progress in game and make two seperate characters. One which you guys play while alone (the rogue) and one which plays with the group (the bard).

A) I've made it pretty clear that they can play when they want, I think. I suppose it could stand some reiteration.
B) I'm playing on the "if your character earns it, s/he gets it. If not, no." People who miss sessions are lower level than everyone else, for instance.
C) Ouch. I don't think I can do that. We don't have a very comfortable couch.


What you are doing is not really fair, you are in fact playing sessions without informing or inviting the other players. They are given no chance to gain XP or treasure, but they are in the same game.
I understand the fun in it, especially if what happens in the "secret" sessions has an effect on the "real" sessions, but i believe it should reward no XP or treasure (or very very minimal, you could let her give all the treasure to her master or something) to keep things on an even scale.

See above: I explicitly tell my players that XP and loot is earned on an "attendance necessary" system when they start playing. They know that much. Also, does the later RSS for the other four players matter, or is that just a weak attempt at making them feel better?

Raum
2010-11-11, 10:47 AM
So, my question:
Am I subconsciously just giving her special treatment because, well, she's my wife? Or is this legit player activity? I feel like if I could "secretly" meet up with one of the other two more experienced players (the wife's brother, or the good doctor) I'd do the same thing for them.The why matters less than the result. You are favoring one character over the others. Do you really think explaining the 'why' to the other players once they find out will make them feel better about it?

dsmiles
2010-11-11, 10:47 AM
However, you are indeed giving her an opportunity not presented to the rest of the group. I would not call it playing favourites per se, but it is not exactly fair towards the rest of the group.
As you (assumingly) have more time with her, you have more opportunities for being in-game with her.

This. Not playing favorites because she's your wife, but playing favorites because there's more opportunity to game with her, since you live together.

All in all, a bad idea. Either get the others together and give them some one-on-one sessions, or stop giving your wife's character XP/GP/LMNOP/whatever for the extra sessions. Gotta be fair to everyone, you know?

Shpadoinkle
2010-11-11, 10:48 AM
Presumably you live with your wife, and consequently you see her a hell of a lot more often than any of the other players. This gives her a LOT more opportunities to throw ideas at you. Favoritism may come into it somewhat, but it's more likely a matter of convenience.

My suggestion would be to either retcon her solo escapades so they never happened, and bring her character down to the same level as everyone else, and do the solo stuff with a new character, or have her present character retire from the group and head off on her own to continue her solo career, while she rolls up a new character to take her old character's place in the group.

Alternately, you could cut out the solo stuff altogether and simply have her character stop gaining experience until everyone else catches up.

wormwood
2010-11-11, 10:49 AM
I'd say that, absolutely, you're favoring the wife. She's getting loot and xp that the others are directly losing (as in the example you provided where they got screwed). She should probably be playing a separate character as the night-time vigilante, as others have suggested, so that her bard is on-par with everyone else.

Another thing I'd like to know is, are you giving her xp in the regular sessions as well? Due to the level difference, the others should get a lot more xp in all the regular games and should probably be catching up to her.

Shadowleaf
2010-11-11, 10:52 AM
A) I've made it pretty clear that they can play when they want, I think. I suppose it could stand some reiteration
It is still not fair. You still have more time with your wife - or rather, she has more time for you.

Giving everyone the same opportunity does not ensure equality. Some players simply do not have the time to have several single sessions inbetween gaming sessions, and the system favours those with more free time. Some might say this is just something the busy people have to deal with, it is in no way a fair system.

gbprime
2010-11-11, 10:55 AM
Bare facts… one player is far ahead of the others in terms of XP, equipment, and play time. You have concealed this fact from the other players. And you’re asking if you’re playing favorites? Yes. Yes you are.

Make a new rule. Solo side adventures are not worth XP. And just halt your wife’s XP total until everyone is a level or 2 behind her.

Escheton
2010-11-11, 10:56 AM
Main problem is that her secret lvls's will curb the xp that the others get when around her. Even if she isn't going all out, using the wealth or classabilities she still has higher bab and such. Making the encounters secretly easyer.
The rest is prettymuch irrelevant. Noone suffers because of it. And it's clear that more time spend with the dm means greater character development.
Secret sessions might be conpensated with essays or private sessions over whatever long-distance communique you prefer.
Because otherwise your wife has the benefit of proximity. Which is more the problem then her being your wife I think.

Sipex
2010-11-11, 10:57 AM
After your explanation it is fairer but your players will still be upset by it and you'll have to deal with it.

Shadowleaf
2010-11-11, 10:58 AM
Bare facts… one player is far ahead of the others in terms of XP, equipment, and play time. You have concealed this fact from the other players. And you’re asking if you’re playing favorites? Yes. Yes you are.

Make a new rule. Solo side adventures are not worth XP. And just halt your wife’s XP total until everyone is a level or 2 behind her.
As I wrote above, this will not stop her from gaining an advantage. XP (and gold) are not the only way to advance and make a character more powerful. Meeting people, making contacts, getting your name out there and so forth is usually just as important.

There is a reason some gaming systems require the expenditure of experience points if you wish to get contacts. They are simply that great to have - I would rather be on good terms with the local Baron, than I would level from level two to three, for example.

However you run the session, her character will advance in some way, unless she meets absolutely no people (remember, everyone you meet is a potential ally), does not pick anything up, or generally does nothing.

AtwasAwamps
2010-11-11, 11:05 AM
I think everything’s pretty much been covered here. No matter how clear you make it to other players that they can “play whenever they want”, it’s also really clear from your posts that for your friends, DnD is very much a social game…so why run solo sessions when they can just wait and play with their friends? Your wife is taking advantage of the option because she can, but it’s created a rather ludicrous disparity in party power levels.

So yes, you’re favoring her. Whether you’d do it for other people is irrelevant, because the option for them to play as much as she has is non-existent…that’s possibly unintentional, but true.

In addition, some of the stuff you mention really does SMACK of favoritism. Putting the PC’s through an entire session only to discover someone else had that adventure first? That’s just kinda mean!

So yeah. If it is inevitably revealed that she is that much of a higher level than the rest of the party, they’re probably going to be irritated and justified in that irritation. Even with your stipulations, it’s not really a fair arrangement.

Now, if you think you can weather the storm and find ways to even the score RAPIDLY, more power to you. But if you don’t think you can, it’s time for you to talk to your wife, possibly admit you may have messed up game balance a little bit, and see if you can figure something out together so that you don’t have to sleep on the couch.

gbprime
2010-11-11, 11:06 AM
Yes, but contacts used for the good of the party or the plot are essentially a "group resource", regardless of who owns them. It's a small price to pay for "DM's Girlfriend Syndrome", which is what we have here.

Sipex
2010-11-11, 11:07 AM
You have to be really careful with significant others as it's easy to seem like your favouring them and thus cause animousity within the group.

My wife often points out how I go to great lengths to not favour her since I'm so paranoid of doing so.

Sipex
2010-11-11, 11:09 AM
Yes, but contacts used for the good of the party or the plot are essentially a "group resource", regardless of who owns them. It's a small price to pay for "DM's Girlfriend Syndrome", which is what we have here.

It seems fair when you just look at it this way but in all fairness, many people play D&D to shine, to be able to be useful and contribute to the situation.

If one person has a noticable advantage (ie: more levels, contacts, loot, knowledge) it decreases the fun rather fast, regardless if everyone gets the benefit.

zephyrkinetic
2010-11-11, 11:10 AM
Trying to get all these responses into one post is hard, man. :smalleek:


Taking away equipment would also be an idea, but losing toys is never fun.

This is happening, in effect. She can't use any of her awesomer stuff with the party, or risk them all going "Hey, wth? When did you get Black Mithril Full Plate of Doom?" So she's limited to her "mild-mannered" stuff when she's just a bard.


It is still not fair. You still have more time with your wife - or rather, she has more time for you.

Giving everyone the same opportunity does not ensure equality. Some players simply do not have the time to have several single sessions inbetween gaming sessions, and the system favours those with more free time. Some might say this is just something the busy people have to deal with, it is in no way a fair system.

I hadn't thought of it that way. That's a very good point.

As an aside, I have to laugh a little; the altar ego in question? "The Black Leaf."


Another thing I'd like to know is, are you giving her xp in the regular sessions as well? Due to the level difference, the others should get a lot more xp in all the regular games and should probably be catching up to her.

Yeah, because I'm used to doing the "XP is on a per-contribution basis" I'm used to doing advanced calculus to figure out XP results. Last encounter (the Werewolf Lord from the MM1 and some 20 or so normal wolves), the level 3 got over 10K while the wife got a paltry 4-something. So it's disbursed properly.


The why matters less than the result. You are favoring one character over the others. Do you really think explaining the 'why' to the other players once they find out will make them feel better about it?

Actually, with this particular group, I feel like if they think it's good roleplay, they'll not be angered. They might give it the surface "Aw, man. That's awesome; why can't we be awesome?" but when they get turned into a construct by a blessing from Nebelun, or gain elemental powers, they'll be just fine.


Main problem is that her secret lvls's will curb the xp that the others get when around her. Even if she isn't going all out, using the wealth or classabilities she still has higher bab and such. Making the encounters secretly easyer.

Wait, really? :smallconfused:
I thought that XP was assigned based on player-level vs. encounter-level. So if a 3rd level Ranger is involved in a fight that takes down a 14-th level Werewolf lord, he still gets a retarded amount of XP, right?
At least, that's how I've been doing it. The only real effect that's had is that the PCs are left scratching their heads wondering how they pulled that off, or thinking they're way more awesome than they really are.


I think everything’s pretty much been covered here. No matter how clear you make it to other players that they can “play whenever they want”, it’s also really clear from your posts that for your friends, DnD is very much a social game…so why run solo sessions when they can just wait and play with their friends? Your wife is taking advantage of the option because she can, but it’s created a rather ludicrous disparity in party power levels.

So yes, you’re favoring her. Whether you’d do it for other people is irrelevant, because the option for them to play as much as she has is non-existent…that’s possibly unintentional, but true.

In addition, some of the stuff you mention really does SMACK of favoritism. Putting the PC’s through an entire session only to discover someone else had that adventure first? That’s just kinda mean!

So yeah. If it is inevitably revealed that she is that much of a higher level than the rest of the party, they’re probably going to be irritated and justified in that irritation. Even with your stipulations, it’s not really a fair arrangement.

Now, if you think you can weather the storm and find ways to even the score RAPIDLY, more power to you. But if you don’t think you can, it’s time for you to talk to your wife, possibly admit you may have messed up game balance a little bit, and see if you can figure something out together so that you don’t have to sleep on the couch.

Well, the "fake" adventure had some reasoning in-game. The baddie killed was a recluse, and there were rumors he needed doing in. Rumors didn't cease, because nobody knew he was dead. Again, probably unfair justification.


And you're right: everything's been well-covered. I do take everyone's points, I promise. I'm going to address the matter properly when we play tomorrow night. Anybody got some Jedi Mind Trick tips?

Sipex
2010-11-11, 11:12 AM
And you're right: everything's been well-covered. I do take everyone's points, I promise. I'm going to address the matter properly when we play tomorrow night. Anybody got some Jedi Mind Trick tips?

Bring Pizza.

dsmiles
2010-11-11, 11:17 AM
Bring Pizza.

Tasty noms fix everything.

Greenish
2010-11-11, 11:17 AM
Wait, really? :smallconfused:
I thought that XP was assigned based on player-level vs. encounter-level. So if a 3rd level Ranger is involved in a fight that takes down a 14-th level Werewolf lord, he still gets a retarded amount of XP, right?Yeah, that's how it works.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-11, 11:29 AM
Imho - regardless of how exactly she got to be much higher-level than the other characters: I have been in three campaigns where I was around level 3 and there was another character around level 8, and none of those were fun. It basically means that whatever you do, your teammate can do better; and it can easily give the other PCs the question of "why are we even here?"

My recommendation: get the vigilante hit by some magical curse, artifact, or BBEG spell, that splits her into two: one is the vigilante, who remains high-level but is only played for your private sessions; the other is the meek, who gets drained to low-level as a sresult, and is played with the rest of the group.

Darakonis
2010-11-11, 11:30 AM
You've gotten yourself into quite the predicament. Telling you what you should have done will not help, so I'll offer advice on how to proceed from where you are. You need a solution that will neither upset your players nor your wife.

I propose you:

1. Make a new rule. Either: "No unscheduled sessions will be held," or "A minimum of 2 players must be present for a session to be held."

Why? As has been stated, your wife has an unfair advantage over your other players--she lives with you, and can have sessions whenever you both feel like it, for however long you want.

As an addendum to this rule, you can allow each player one or two solo sessions every now and then--but nothing that would allow them to leap ahead of the other players in terms of XP or loot.

2. Allow your wife's current character to leave the party (perhaps by faking his death) and let her bring in a character of equal level to the other party members. Her bard can then become an antagonist, and you can continue to have solo sessions with her running the bard. Yes, this seems to contradict point 1., but the key difference here is that her "real" character, the one with the party, is on equal grounds with everyone else.

Why? The other players will not be pleased to find out about these solo sessions, and that your wife's character is so far ahead of theirs. Depending on their personality, they may even leave the campaign. But your wife won't be happy if you take away everything she's accomplished during her solo sessions. This is a compromise. Assuming, as you said, that no metagaming will take place, your wife should be able to run both a protagonist and a villain fairly. However, if and when the bard appears during your "main" sessions, you should run him, not your wife.

Your other players will never need to know that your wife has solo sessions.

Peace,
-Darakonis

Dragon Elite
2010-11-11, 11:32 AM
Yeah, that's how it works.

Actually, you only get XP for encounters within 8 CR of your ECL.

Sipex
2010-11-11, 11:36 AM
You could have your wife's character become the BBEG and have her make a new character.

zephyrkinetic
2010-11-11, 11:37 AM
Actually, you only get XP for encounters within 8 CR of your ECL.

The DMG only lists XP totals within 8 CR; I'm extrapolating the right numbers (the chart follows a pretty simple formula) and using them as "Ad Hoc."


You could have your wife's character become the BBEG and have her make a new character.

I just posted that thread about a Dragon Mafia yesterday, and now I've got a pretty-effin'-sweet BBEG in my brain. :smalltongue:

d13
2010-11-11, 11:46 AM
See above: I explicitly tell my players that XP and loot is earned on an "attendance necessary" system when they start playing. They know that much. Also, does the later RSS for the other four players matter, or is that just a weak attempt at making them feel better?

The thing is, your system of "secret sessions" is flawed, in the sense that your wife has a default advantage on it by living with you, and being able to have one whenever she feels like.

See it this way:
A is 6' tall.
B is 3' tall.
C comes over and says "whoever can pound the top of this 6'3'' log, gets a bonus".

It's not unfair taking into account that everyone has the possibility to do it, but when you take a look at probability...

It's not that your system is unfair, but more like your wife, by default, can take advantage of it more often.


EDIT: And so it happens that I didn't read half the posts, and everything I said was already said. Oh, well... Life happens :smalltongue:

Zeofar
2010-11-11, 11:50 AM
Tell everyone specifically that you will do one-on-one with them and make sure that everyone gets basically fair treatment in that respect, give everyone else crazy "RP XP" as often as possible, let them find the hoard of a kleptomaniac goblin pickpocket while "she's out vigilanting", and make sure that RSS comes along soon. Life is good. You can always temporarily stop her personal sessions for the time being and assume that all her marks ended up, for some reason, being lowlife thugs who are inconsequential and don't yield any significant xp or loot. This way she can still kill people and continue that storyline for the other players while letting everyone else catch up.

Psyx
2010-11-11, 11:57 AM
What you are doing is not really fair, you are in fact playing sessions without informing or inviting the other players. They are given no chance to gain XP or treasure, but they are in the same game.
I understand the fun in it, especially if what happens in the "secret" sessions has an effect on the "real" sessions, but i believe it should reward no XP or treasure (or very very minimal, you could let her give all the treasure to her master or something) to keep things on an even scale.


Stop what you're doing and run a solo campaign with her, or talk with the others and ask how they feel about it. Anything else just isn't fair.


^These.

You might not be being biased because it's your wide, but she is getting a chance that nobody else has. Either don't let the extra-curricular night-time activities give an advantage in the 'main' game, or -better and easier still- run a solo game.

Lev
2010-11-11, 12:25 PM
Bring on a plot line where the superhero identity is being hunted so she has to lie low.