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View Full Version : what is this 'truenaming' and why does it apparently suck so bad?



big teej
2010-11-11, 03:45 PM
alright, I'll bite, I've been cruising/trolling these forums for awhile and I've seen several things that at first I did not understand (and/or understand why they are bad)

things such as
fighters
paladins
monks
LA

now, that said, in my groups, the aforementioned doesn't matter a whole lot. so the relative suckyness isn't relavent to the discussion

however, I also see many many many people reference "truenaming"
now,I (think) am familiar with the concept... it is essentially

"the creators of the multiverse gave each thing a 'true name' and if you know this name, you can control the creature"

or some variation of that depending of the setting, now, getting to my question
(in Dungeons and Dragons 3.x)

WHAT is Truenaming?
and
WHY does it suck?


please ignore the references to fighters/monks/etc. I understand why they suck, it just doesn't come up in my group

hamishspence
2010-11-11, 03:51 PM
Truenamer is a class in Tome of Magic. They created a new skill (Truespeak) and you need to make successful Truespeak checks in order to use Utterances (equivalents of spells).

However:

1: Each time you use an utterance after the first time on the same target- the DC goes up by +2.

2: The check is based on the Hit dice of targets- however, monster Hit dice go up much faster than Skill Ranks do.

EDIT
2: The formula incorporates CRx2 (or HDx2 for PCs)- meaning DC goes up at double the rate Skill Ranks do.

3: The utterances themselves are generally fairly low powered.

So what you have, is a class that gets weaker (relative to the enemies you will be facing) the higher in level it goes.

Conclusion- It does not work well.

Toptomcat
2010-11-11, 03:53 PM
Truenaming is an alternate magic system put forth in the supplement Tome of Magic: it sucks because its use requires a skill check that escalates with an opposing monster's HD. Monster HD tends to go up faster with the increased CR that comes as you level than your own ability to make Truenaming checks increases with class level: thus your chance of affecting an opponent with your magic at level 1 is considerably less than your chance of doing the same at level 20. It actually gets worse against level-appropriate opponents as you level rather than better, making is a pretty bass-ackwards way to design a magic system or a class.

Edit: Swordsaged!

Caphi
2010-11-11, 03:56 PM
Imagine Wizards got the amazing idea to make a magic system limited not by uses nor by saves, but by skill checks.

Now imagine the skill checks were oppressively hard and the spells sucked anyway.

Imagine no longer, because that's what Truenaming is.

hamishspence
2010-11-11, 03:58 PM
The idea itself though, was popular enough that there are a few Truenamer fixes floating around.

InkEyes
2010-11-11, 03:59 PM
2: The check is based on the Hit dice of targets- however, monster Hit dice go up much faster than Skill Ranks do.

I dislike truenaming mechanics, but this right here is misleading and arguably wrong. The Truespeak DC is the Challenge Rating of monsters and the Hit Dice of Players. You'll run into problems if your players have non-associated hit dice from turning into lycanthropes/being monstrous races or if your DM doesn't think adding monster hit dice to LA balances things. It's also an issue because challenge ratings are a subjective thing that's not well gauged (especially in early books), so your primary class feature relies on a mechanic that has no set-in-stone rules.

grarrrg
2010-11-11, 04:02 PM
2: The check is based on the Hit dice of targets- however, monster Hit dice go up much faster than Skill Ranks do.


Slight correction, the skill check goes up by 2*CR, meanwhile skills (usually) advance 1 per level. Meaning when a Truenamer goes up a level, their ability increases by 1, when the DC goes up by 2. Every. Single. Level.
A level 1 Truenamer faces a 'monster bonus' (DC increase) of 2 on the skill check.
A level 5 Truenamer faces a 'monster bonus' of 10 on the skill check.
A level 20 Truenamer faces a 'monster bonus' of 40 (!!) on the skill check.

Basically, a Truenamer needs EXTREME optimization/cheese to do pretty much ANYTHING at higher levels.

Telonius
2010-11-11, 04:03 PM
The fluff was great, and it did appear in the same book as the Binder (whose schtick was that he got his powers from cutting deals with spirits, a la Elric), another extremely flavorful class. There's a fair number of people who really want the class to work.

But to give you an idea of how bad it is... count the number of "But the Monk is really decent as-written!" threads started in the last week. Then count the number of "But the Truenamer is really decent as-written!" threads started in the last two years. The number will probably be around the same, and that's even counting the "Monk/Truenamer combo of power!" I posted as an April Fool's joke (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8199292) this year. (Please don't thread necro).

Psyren
2010-11-11, 04:04 PM
The idea itself though, was popular enough that there are a few Truenamer fixes floating around.

Truenaming has phenomenal fluff. (Actually, ToM in general has great fluff.)

So many consider fixing the class as a labor of love, as opposed to say, Soulknife or Samurai.

grarrrg
2010-11-11, 05:57 PM
Oh, another HUGE hit against them.
Multiclassing = not gonna happen.
The ONLY (remotely) viable build that actually uses truenaming is "Truenamer 20".
Any other Caster can go PrC or gish, any melee can PrC or dip like crazy, any Skill Monkey can PrC or other.

The Truenamer can...take more Truenamer.

There's a semi-running joke that goes something like this:
"Hey guys, I've finally found a great Truenamer build that actually works!

Truenamer 1/Wizard 19"

big teej
2010-11-11, 06:54 PM
I dislike truenaming mechanics, but this right here is misleading and arguably wrong. The Truespeak DC is the Challenge Rating of monsters and the Hit Dice of Players. You'll run into problems if your players have non-associated hit dice from turning into lycanthropes/being monstrous races or if your DM doesn't think adding monster hit dice to LA balances things. It's also an issue because challenge ratings are a subjective thing that's not well gauged (especially in early books), so your primary class feature relies on a mechanic that has no set-in-stone rules.

... okay, humor me for a moment, I now see why it is so terrible (in practice)
but, (and I'm sure this has been suggested, but you're humoring me so oh well)

since CR is such a guesstimate system,
could it not be fixed by simply removing CR from the equation? if I'm reading this correctly, the DC formula is CR+ (or *) player HD...

would the IDEA work properly if it was based ONLY on enemy hit die? (and that is it?)

because... call me crazy, but my understanding is that skillpoints and Hit Die advance at the same rate...

short version... that would work right? :smallconfused:

if not please explain why :smalltongue: I wanna have this hammered out WAAAAAY before I get my hands on a copy of the book its in.
the more simple and closer to the original work the better.
(hence the above suggestion)

The Glyphstone
2010-11-11, 06:58 PM
... okay, humor me for a moment, I now see why it is so terrible (in practice)
but, (and I'm sure this has been suggested, but you're humoring me so oh well)

since CR is such a guesstimate system,
could it not be fixed by simply removing CR from the equation? if I'm reading this correctly, the DC formula is CR+ (or *) player HD...

would the IDEA work properly if it was based ONLY on enemy hit die? (and that is it?)

because... call me crazy, but my understanding is that skillpoints and Hit Die advance at the same rate...

short version... that would work right? :smallconfused:

if not please explain why :smalltongue: I wanna have this hammered out WAAAAAY before I get my hands on a copy of the book its in.
the more simple and closer to the original work the better.
(hence the above suggestion)


That wouldn't work either. For monsters, HD and CR rarely have anything in common with each other, since it depends on creature type. That'd make Truenaming even more worthless against things like Giants or Undead, while still the same against Outsiders, for example.

Urpriest
2010-11-11, 06:59 PM
... okay, humor me for a moment, I now see why it is so terrible (in practice)
but, (and I'm sure this has been suggested, but you're humoring me so oh well)

since CR is such a guesstimate system,
could it not be fixed by simply removing CR from the equation? if I'm reading this correctly, the DC formula is CR+ (or *) player HD...

would the IDEA work properly if it was based ONLY on enemy hit die? (and that is it?)

because... call me crazy, but my understanding is that skillpoints and Hit Die advance at the same rate...

short version... that would work right? :smallconfused:

if not please explain why :smalltongue: I wanna have this hammered out WAAAAAY before I get my hands on a copy of the book its in.
the more simple and closer to the original work the better.
(hence the above suggestion)

Lots of monsters have hit dice much higher than their challenge rating. Look at the Tarrasque. You'd fight the Tarrasque at level 20, but its hit dice are so huge you could never affect it with anything. The same is true of various undead. While HD is an ok scaling, it isn't a good one. It's the 2*CR that's the real problem though, because it goes faster than your leveling does.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-11, 07:01 PM
Worst Truenamer is only a 6th level utterance caster (ala Bard who has only 6th level spells).

They didn't even make him a 9th level utterance caster like Wizard or Druid.

Why not HDx2 or CRx2, whichever is more benficial to the Truenamer?

GoatBoy
2010-11-11, 07:27 PM
The utterances suck and multiclassing is impossible, but I never quite agreed with the idea that utterance DC's are too hard to make.

My interpretation of the 3.5 rules is that if you optimize a skill modifier within reason, you can pretty easily get to your levelx2.

Level in skill ranks
+3 extra ranks at 1st level
+3 for free Skill Focus feat
+Int modifier (which probably equals about half your level, between base + level increases + item + Tome of Understanding)
+5 or +10 enhancement bonus for Amulet of the Silver Tongue (+5 is easily affordable by level 10, +10 VERY easily by 20, so another half your level at least)

At worst, Truenamers are expected to at least have ranks equal to twice their level plus 6, which is at least a 55% chance of succeeding on an utterance the first time it is used against something equal to your own level. This isn't good, but it's not nightmarish. And that's WITHOUT all of the somewhat obvious rules for skill-enhancing items in the DMG, which will give you another +1-10 in competence bonuses. I know that such items are by DM approval, but WotC probably assumed you'd be using one when they wrote the chapter.

Then there's even more obscure ways to boost your skill check, which I won't get into here.

My point is, although the utterance DC's are somewhat high, they are not impossible to reach by basic preparation, and completely trivial via basic optimization.

Everything else about the class mechanics is still horrible, though.

JaronK
2010-11-11, 07:33 PM
It's totally possible to make your utterance DCs if you optimize enough. Item Familiar makes this quite possible (since it effectively lets your Truenamer Ranks go up by 2 per level), and when combined with other useful boosts you can get there. The result: a heavily optimized Truenamer works kinda like a Warlock, casting his effects every time. But those effects? They're still not that good. So it doesn't matter. And if you don't optimize that much, you have no abilities at all because nothing works. It's really hard to hit the balance point the Truenamer was intended to be at, where you succeed the first few times and then start failing. Usually you either succeed too much (but still aren't that good) or don't succeed at all.

But then you hit level 20 and can spam gate, and suddenly your solution to everything is "I summon a horde of angels." Which works, but is silly.

JaronK

Kallisti
2010-11-11, 07:37 PM
At worst, Truenamers are expected to at least have ranks equal to twice their level plus 6, which is at least a 55% chance of succeeding on an utterance the first time it is used against something equal to your own level.

Utterances are not as powerful as spells or invocations, and those get a 100% chance of activating under normal circumstances.

55% chance of hitting the DC to use the only class feature you really get IS waaaay too high a DC. Given how low-power utterances are, you shouldn't be having a chance of failure at all until you've used the utterance many times--they're low-power and very low-duration.

InkEyes
2010-11-11, 07:38 PM
Worst Truenamer is only a 6th level utterance caster (ala Bard who has only 6th level spells).

They didn't even make him a 9th level utterance caster like Wizard or Druid.

Why not HDx2 or CRx2, whichever is more benficial to the Truenamer?

Challenge Rating will win out almost every time-- especially at higher levels where it really matters-- so what's the point? The way Truespeaking scales is one of the biggest marks against it. A truenamer that invests max skill points in truespeaking will still need to constantly buff the skill with feats and ability boosts to even cast reliably.

The other black mark is the overall weak effects of their spells. Other than its version of the gate spell, there's no reason to choose truenaming casting over sorcerer/wizard or even weaker classes like the healer. Some of their spells still call for a save on top of the skill check! What designer honestly thought that was a good idea? You devote massive chunks of your WBL and teeny-tiny feat pool to be able to use your class features and the monster still makes it save! Congrats, now it's a little harder to cast that day and nothing came of it.

The base issue is a casting system based entirely on chance will always be out-competed by classes who have spells that don't even call for a die roll of any kind (i.e. every other caster in the game).

Augmented Lurk
2010-11-11, 09:12 PM
Also you can only target one creature at a time with your utterances until level 17. And you can't speak an utterance while that same utterance is still in place, so even at 20th level you wouldn't be able to cast Conjunctive Gate round after round, you would have to wait for the previous CG to end first.

Gametime
2010-11-11, 09:13 PM
Utterances are not as powerful as spells or invocations, and those get a 100% chance of activating under normal circumstances.

55% chance of hitting the DC to use the only class feature you really get IS waaaay too high a DC. Given how low-power utterances are, you shouldn't be having a chance of failure at all until you've used the utterance many times--they're low-power and very low-duration.

Well, in fairness, most spells allow a saving throw or require an attack roll, and most utterances do not.

They're still pretty bleh, though.

Zaq
2010-11-11, 09:34 PM
Thank you, JaronK, for showing me that SOMEONE recognizes that the stupidly designed check DCs of Truespeak are by no means the worst obstacle a Truenamer has to overcome. So yeah, this little thread right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269) should tell you most of what you need to know about how Truenamers actually do and do not work. Go and read that, and if you have any questions afterward, post them here (please don't necro my thread, since I'd really prefer that it not get locked) and I'll be happy to answer them.

Keld Denar
2010-11-11, 10:20 PM
There was some discussion concerning Truenaming here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8489.0).

Scorpions__
2010-11-11, 10:31 PM
I have new Homebrew utterances that have been PEACHed to some extent in my signature, please don't necro.







DM[F]R

big teej
2010-11-11, 10:38 PM
this is all very helpful, unfortunately, I'm liable to forget it all between now and when I get my hands on the book... so in the name of not forgetting (as much)


can anyone direct me to a homebrew 'fix' that is widely accepted as the simplest fix and the closest to the original material?

my group doesn't really optimize much. (we don't have anything ridiculous like someone taking 1 of every class or taking toughness or anything, but nothing crazy)

so I'm looking for simple, workable, and as close to original material as possible (if such a thing exists) :smallsmile:

that way I can bookmark it :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-11-11, 10:52 PM
If you want to make sure you don't forget this thread, you can subscribe to it and it'll be enshined until you chose to unsubscribe. Its in "thread tools". Enjoy!

Lans
2010-11-12, 12:37 AM
Making the check 10+1.5*CR would go a long way to balancing the class. At 20 its the difference between no chance and 75/25, and allows a bit of play for higher CRs.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 01:01 AM
The top two fixes for Truenamers:

Kyeudo's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488)

Kellus' fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961)

Personally, I prefer the first (Kyeudo's) as it stays closer to the material actually within ToM, but if it's extras you're after, Kellus has a ton.

The PrCs those two evil geniuses came up with are nice too.

LibraryOgre
2010-11-12, 01:11 AM
Haven't ever looked at the class (in fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen a copy of Tome of Magic for 3e), but seems like the most appropriate fix would be something like setting DCs at 10 + level of utterance + Appropriate Save bonus of target. Using low-level utterances is fairly easy, but using high-level utterances against harder targets gets more difficult. You can then also ignore saves, since the person's save bonus is already included.

Zaq
2010-11-12, 02:16 AM
Haven't ever looked at the class (in fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen a copy of Tome of Magic for 3e), but seems like the most appropriate fix would be something like setting DCs at 10 + level of utterance + Appropriate Save bonus of target. Using low-level utterances is fairly easy, but using high-level utterances against harder targets gets more difficult. You can then also ignore saves, since the person's save bonus is already included.

A common error (sadly, all TOO common). The DCs suck, and should be changed, but that won't even bring the Truenamer up to the level of, say, a Warlock. They need more and better utterances for that . . . and more importantly, they need to KILL THE LAW OF SEQUENCE WITH EVERY FIRE THAT HAS EVER BURNED. But yeah, just changing the DCs won't make that much of a difference in the long run. It's a necessary step, but far from the only one.

onthetown
2010-11-12, 07:08 AM
It might have already been mentioned, but the only way to get a somewhat challengeable truenaming skill with just the normal class is to spend lots of gold on items that will bump it up, and it still just doesn't compare.

They're fun to roleplay because of the fluff, but once you get rolling in battle you mostly stand there, watching the battle and generally failing at whatever you try to do, or you look at your list of utterances and go, "Why am I even going to bother trying? I can't use any of these in this situation." If you can, multiclass into a conjurer wizard so that you can create some popcorn and a chair for when a battle arises.

Actually, if you can, just try to fix it or use one of the fixes out there.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-12, 07:16 AM
A common error (sadly, all TOO common). The DCs suck, and should be changed, but that won't even bring the Truenamer up to the level of, say, a Warlock. They need more and better utterances for that . . . and more importantly, they need to KILL THE LAW OF SEQUENCE WITH EVERY FIRE THAT HAS EVER BURNED. But yeah, just changing the DCs won't make that much of a difference in the long run. It's a necessary step, but far from the only one.

You can get around that law with Heightening an utterance.
When you heighten an utterance it is treated as 1 level higher (and thus a different utterance).

Runestar
2010-11-12, 07:34 AM
I always assumed the reason why truename checks scale at such a disproportionate rate is exactly because the designers expect the players to go all out to optimise their truename check.

Apart from maxing out ranks in truename, any enterprising player would definitely boost int, take skill focus, acquire skill-boosting items and maybe even bribe the wizard to buff him with spells like heroism. So the DCs are set to reflect this.

If they can get item familiar or an aura, even better.:smallsmile:

Mongoose87
2010-11-12, 08:02 AM
But then you hit level 20 and can spam gate, and suddenly your solution to everything is "I summon a horde of angels." Which works, but is silly.

JaronK

Meanwhile, the fighter is there, on his BMX, and he is pissed that he still doesn't have anything to do.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 09:10 AM
A common error (sadly, all TOO common). The DCs suck, and should be changed, but that won't even bring the Truenamer up to the level of, say, a Warlock. They need more and better utterances for that . . . and more importantly, they need to KILL THE LAW OF SEQUENCE WITH EVERY FIRE THAT HAS EVER BURNED. But yeah, just changing the DCs won't make that much of a difference in the long run. It's a necessary step, but far from the only one.

I think Kyeudo's fix is a nice compromise (I know you helped work on it too) - it only makes the Law of Sequence apply to one target at a time, rather than your entire repertoire. So you could give the whole party fast healing with Word of Nurturing rather than having to wait until it wears off each one individually. :smallsmile:


Meanwhile, the fighter is there, on his BMX, and he is pissed that he still doesn't have anything to do.

I see what you did there

LibraryOgre
2010-11-12, 11:09 AM
A common error (sadly, all TOO common). The DCs suck, and should be changed, but that won't even bring the Truenamer up to the level of, say, a Warlock. They need more and better utterances for that . . . and more importantly, they need to KILL THE LAW OF SEQUENCE WITH EVERY FIRE THAT HAS EVER BURNED. But yeah, just changing the DCs won't make that much of a difference in the long run. It's a necessary step, but far from the only one.

I'm going to have to look at it, then, if I can find a copy.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 11:23 AM
I'm going to have to look at it, then, if I can find a copy.

The Law of Sequence is indeed a massive kick in the nuts to the class. Basically, if you use an utterance - any utterance - with a duration, you have to wait until it expires to use it again, even if you change targets. (Or use a lower/higher level version.) No other spellcaster has an arbitrary restriction like that.

It forces you into redundancy (if you want to be a capable healer, for instance, you need 3 different versions of Word of Nurturing, when they all do the same thing.) It's doubly damning because it even applies to reversed versions of those utterances; so you cannot both Haste and Slow people unless an encounter lasts for a really long time, even if you're able to hit the DCs reliably. It also forces you to lean on your instant utterances, throwing them headlong into the Law of Resistance and making your already tough-to-hit DCs even less reachable.

Calmar
2010-11-12, 11:26 AM
Lots of monsters have hit dice much higher than their challenge rating. Look at the Tarrasque. You'd fight the Tarrasque at level 20, but its hit dice are so huge you could never affect it with anything. The same is true of various undead. While HD is an ok scaling, it isn't a good one. It's the 2*CR that's the real problem though, because it goes faster than your leveling does.

That sucks from a mechanical point of view, but the idea that the secret true names of some creatures are a complete enigma, making them immune to magic assaults, sounds pretty sweet itself.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 11:32 AM
That sucks from a mechanical point of view, but the idea that the secret true names of some creatures are a complete enigma, making them immune to magic assaults, sounds pretty sweet itself.

Actually, you don't need a creature's personal truename to use utterances on it. 90% of the time you would be saying something akin to "tarrasque-who-is-charging-my-friends-at-12pm-on-sunday!" or something similar, rather than the creature's own unique identifier. The high truespeak DC just represents how hard it is to articulate/pronounce utterances that can affect such a powerful creature. (With an additional +5 to bypass his SR.)

Person_Man
2010-11-12, 11:58 AM
Note that even if the Skill DC problem is fixed, there just really aren't many unique Utterances. Flicker (Immediate Action movement every turn) is the only real gem I can remember off the top of my head. There are a few other interesting/fun things here and there. But for the most part it just duplicates existing spells, and does a poor job of it.

Greenish
2010-11-12, 12:45 PM
Note that even if the Skill DC problem is fixed, there just really aren't many unique Utterances. Flicker (Immediate Action movement every turn) is the only real gem I can remember off the top of my head.Flicker is a mystery, not an utterance. :smalltongue:

The Shadowmind
2010-11-12, 12:51 PM
Note that even if the Skill DC problem is fixed, there just really aren't many unique Utterances. Flicker (Immediate Action movement every turn) is the only real gem I can remember off the top of my head. There are a few other interesting/fun things here and there. But for the most part it just duplicates existing spells, and does a poor job of it.

Flicker is a shadow mystery for the Shadowcaster. Tenebrous for the Binder also grants it a few times a day, but I haven't found any lexicon for the truenamer that grants it.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-12, 12:55 PM
The Law of Sequence is indeed a massive kick in the nuts to the class. Basically, if you use an utterance - any utterance - with a duration, you have to wait until it expires to use it again, even if you change targets. (Or use a lower/higher level version.) No other spellcaster has an arbitrary restriction like that.


Again, Heightening a Utterance gets around Law of Sequence. You can use it now you don't have to wait.
Is heighten that obscure a rule in the book of Truenamer section?

Psyren
2010-11-12, 12:57 PM
Again, Heightening a Utterance gets around Law of Sequence. You can use it now you don't have to wait.
Is heighten that obscure a rule in the book of Truenamer section?

There's no need to be snarky. That gives you a whole 'nother use of the utterance before the Law clamps down again and makes you wait, and that's assuming you make the check. Yay?

Starbuck_II
2010-11-12, 01:02 PM
I don't think I was sarcastic. What definition of snark are we using?
Yes, there is additional calculations, but it isn't a bad work around if you need the same utterance twice at same time (since you normally can't use one if one is still active).

Aharon
2010-11-12, 01:44 PM
The discussion I started was already linked to by Keld Denar, so I will just mention the things that are good about the class, in my opinion: Universal Aptitude and Rebuild Item.

You can make wands of Universal Aptitude and Heightened Universal Aptitude. You can buy a Tiles of Metamagic Item (Persistent Spell). You get insane skill boni.

You can use Rebuild Item on Potion tiles. This means lots and lots of cheap, low-level buffs for you.

End result: Jack of all Trades Truenamer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=158919)

The Skill section and the Conditions and Effects section are the most interesting.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 01:53 PM
I don't think I was sarcastic. What definition of snark are we using?

"Is it that obscure?" comes across condescending whether you meant it that way or not. It has the ring of "how could anyone with a brain miss this?"


Yes, there is additional calculations, but it isn't a bad work around if you need the same utterance twice at same time (since you normally can't use one if one is still active).

It's not about the calculations; it's that you're still not getting around the Law by doing that. You get one extra use, but generally there are more than two people in your party or you're facing more than two enemies. You still end up being able to buff or debuff one person, try another utterance until LoR makes it impossible and then pull out the morningstar.

Aharon
2010-11-12, 02:00 PM
@Psyren
This is incorrect, because the Law of Resistance applies for each version separately. At first, this doesn't seem relevant, but you actually changed a linear to a logarithmic progression:
normally:
0, +2, +4, +6, +8, +10, +12, +14, +16, +18, +20, +22, ...
with heightening:
0, +2, +4, +4, +6, +6, +8, +8, +8, +10, +10, +10, ...

This doesn't look like much, but if you properly optimized your Truespeak check, you can get a lot of mileage out of this change.

Heightening is also useful because it allows better blasting via Mortalbane (add 2d6 to each of your spell-likes 5/day, wording allows stacking the same way as arcane strike).

Psyren
2010-11-12, 02:13 PM
@ Aharon: I'm not talking about the Law of Resistance, I'm talking about the Law of Sequence.

Example: I want to slow down a bad guy and haste my allies, so I use Speed of the Zephyr.

After I haste one ally, I cannot use Speed of the Zephyr again - either on the enemy I wanted to slow, or on another ally - until I have waited for the 3-rounds cooldown to elapse.

Heightening will allow me one more use on the following round (it counts as a different utterance as Starbuck said), but now I have to wait 3 rounds for that to come up again too.

That's 2 rounds - most battles last for 5-7. What do I do for the remaning 3-5? I either switch utterances or break out the morningstar.

Meanwhile the Wizard/Sorcerer can haste everyone without having to worry about cooldowns, and/or even haste and slow in the same round with a Quicken. Even with Quicken Utterance I can't do that, because of the Law of Sequence.

And all that is without factoring in how few Utterances I know (the others might not even apply to this situation) or how hard it is to make the checks.

Esser-Z
2010-11-12, 02:20 PM
Actually, you don't need a creature's personal truename to use utterances on it. 90% of the time you would be saying something akin to "tarrasque-who-is-charging-my-friends-at-12pm-on-sunday!" or something similar, rather than the creature's own unique identifier. The high truespeak DC just represents how hard it is to articulate/pronounce utterances that can affect such a powerful creature. (With an additional +5 to bypass his SR.)
Could you not also say something about, perhaps, 'rock-the-charging-tarrasque-is-standing-on'?

Psyren
2010-11-12, 02:26 PM
Could you not also say something about, perhaps, 'rock-the-charging-tarrasque-is-standing-on'?

That would be a Lexicon of the Perfected Map Utterance.

LEM has to target a creature
LCT has to target an object
LPM targets a place or area

Aharon
2010-11-12, 02:39 PM
@Psyren
You can heighten more than once. With sufficient Truespeak-Optimization, your Truespeak-Check will be high enough to do that and still succeed at the check.
(See my thread linked to by Keld Denar earlier, or the build I linked to above. The build uses Item Familiar, because the DM said I could, but it only accounts for about a tenth of its total truespeak modifier)

Psyren
2010-11-12, 03:09 PM
Ah, I understand now. But without a Truenamer fix, that is going to require lots and lots of Op-fu. Still, it's nice to know you can kill both those birds with one stone. (Granted, the stone requires a lot of DM-assistance to pull... hopefully the more elegant alternative of using Kyeudo's fix appeals to them more.)

Person_Man
2010-11-12, 03:22 PM
Flicker is a mystery, not an utterance. :smalltongue:

I stand corrected.

So are there any Truenamer abilities that are unique or unique-ish to the Truenamer, and worth using at the level at which they become available?

Psyren
2010-11-12, 03:26 PM
I stand corrected.

So are there any Truenamer abilities that are unique or unique-ish to the Truenamer, and worth using at the level at which they become available?

You mean aside from Gate at-will? :smalltongue:

Truenamers do have some cool and unique effects. Spell Rebirth for instance is an ability that only they can duplicate. Temporal Spiral is another nice one - basically a Hustle you can give to allies.

EDIT: A couple more I forgot - you can rebuild broken magic items (restoring their powers in the process.) You can also infuse a potion or scroll with free metamagic (even without knowing the applicable metamagic feat yourself) from a small list.

Zaq
2010-11-12, 03:49 PM
I always assumed the reason why truename checks scale at such a disproportionate rate is exactly because the designers expect the players to go all out to optimise their truename check.

Apart from maxing out ranks in truename, any enterprising player would definitely boost int, take skill focus, acquire skill-boosting items and maybe even bribe the wizard to buff him with spells like heroism. So the DCs are set to reflect this.

If they can get item familiar or an aura, even better.:smallsmile:

What they forgot is that the optimizers are going to get what they want come hell or high water. I need a +35 to make my skill roll? You just gave me a challenge to overcome, and I'll have a +45 before the night is out. That sort of thing. However, that means that people who don't go for optimization simply can't play the class out of the box, which is bad. You haven't stopped the people who are actually good at getting what they want, and you've barred the class from (or worse, created a trap for) people who just want to play a casual game without pushing any limits or doing any book-diving.


I stand corrected.

So are there any Truenamer abilities that are unique or unique-ish to the Truenamer, and worth using at the level at which they become available?

The biggest one is Spell Rebirth, as has been mentioned. With the normal utterance, it un-dispels or un-dismisses a spell, which is awesome (if situational). With the reversed utterance, though . . . well, it's not QUITE Iron Heart Surge, but it's close (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6255115&postcount=2). (Second spoiler from the bottom.) Rebuild Item has also been mentioned. Caster Lens and Magic Contraction are great to have on a cohort but are kind of frustrating to actually use, mainly because when you do so, you're taking your full caster / full manifester buddy and making him or her even more powerful. Being a cheerleader for someone who's already the most powerful member of the party is significantly less satisfying than, say, making your BSF into a god of death. That said, they're still options. Other than that? Eh, nothing that's astoundingly worthwhile. (Well, ok, Ether Reforged lets you do some very silly things, but that's because the wording is obviously borked beyond recognition.)

I won't get into the whole "heightening" debate, because it won't go anywhere. I don't believe that the trick works, and it's definitely not a "fix" for the Truenamer (when you have to twist the poorly written rules to make things distinctly more complex just to get around something you don't like? I'd sooner just houserule the LoS away), but the rules are poorly worded enough to allow an interpretation which allows it to work. The entire Truenamer chapter is in desperate need of an editor. So it goes.


You mean aside from Gate at-will? :smalltongue:
EDIT: A couple more I forgot - you can rebuild broken magic items (restoring their powers in the process.) You can also infuse a potion or scroll with free metamagic (even without knowing the applicable metamagic feat yourself) from a small list.

Edit: Metamagic Item is nowhere near worth mentioning. The list is too small to allow for anything actually powerful, it comes online at I believe level 18 or 19, and honestly, by the time you get it, you're unlikely to be using potions at all, or wands of things that would benefit from the metamagics on the list. Not worth it.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 03:57 PM
(when you have to twist the poorly written rules to make things distinctly more complex just to get around something you don't like? I'd sooner just houserule the LoS away)

As I mentioned, Kyeudo's fix does include the Law of Sequence, but tweaks it to make it reasonable. I wouldn't want to dispense with it entirely, so I think that was a nice compromise.

I'm not sure how that version interacts with Speak Unto the Masses though. Say you hasted all the humanoids in earshot (including the bandits you're trying to fight); would you be unable to then reverse the utterance to slow them back down individually, because they're under the effect of your SotZ already? Could result in some interesting battlefield math.


Edit: Metamagic Item is nowhere near worth mentioning. The list is too small to allow for anything actually powerful, it comes online at I believe level 18 or 19, and honestly, by the time you get it, you're unlikely to be using potions at all, or wands of things that would benefit from the metamagics on the list. Not worth it.

Also true; I confess I just remembered the description rather than checking the level it came online. :smallredface:

Runestar
2010-11-12, 05:03 PM
What they forgot is that the optimizers are going to get what they want come hell or high water.

The few people who can somehow get +200 to their skill checks will likely be few and far in between. The rest of the optimizers are likely more moderate, and probably stop at around said threshold, and not go too far simply because they lack the required splatbooks and/or simply find it too cheesy.

I for one would fall into the "Will make some effort to optimize, but not go too far" category. :smallsmile:

Gametime
2010-11-12, 05:52 PM
I wonder what a proper fullcaster would be like with something akin to the Law of Sequence in play. With spells that don't suck, the inability to cast the same spell more than once during its duration could be interesting.

Assuming, of course, that the spell selection was limited to a number such that it wouldn't be possible to just pull out a reasonable analogue for any given spell function. And now that I think about it, you could probably do that with just the PHB. Still, interesting to think about.

Kyeudo
2010-11-12, 05:58 PM
The few people who can somehow get +200 to their skill checks will likely be few and far in between. The rest of the optimizers are likely more moderate, and probably stop at around said threshold, and not go too far simply because they lack the required splatbooks and/or simply find it too cheesy.

I for one would fall into the "Will make some effort to optimize, but not go too far" category. :smallsmile:

Let me be specific about how much optimization is required on a Truenamer to hit your DCs reliably at level 20. WotC, as far as the numbers show, assumed the following would be standard: Intelligence of 18 at character creation, all ability ups go to Intelligence, maximized skill ranks in Truespeak, Skill Focus (Truespeak), a Headband of Intellect +6, an Amulet of the Silver Tongue +10, and either five consecutive Wishes powering up your Intelligence or a Tome of Clear Thought +5. In other words, WotC assumed that all of your WBL would be tied up in meeting your Truespeak check DCs.

The only optimization tricks I know of that WotC did not include in their calculations are: psionic shards (one use items that give +X to a check), the Paragnostic Assemby's +10 bonus, custom magic items, Exemplar's +4 on your favored skill, and item familiars.

Once you have dumped all of this into your Truespeak check, you can meet the DCs for on-CR targets about 50% of the time. Anyone more powerful, say a boss monster or the campaign's big villian, are going to be affected only about 30% of the time. This also assumes that this is the first time in the day you have used the utterance. Reduce the effectiveness by 10% for each time that day you have used the utterance.

TL; DR version: WotC assumed near-maximum optimization to achieve competence. Less than maximum optimization achives mediocrity at best.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 07:17 PM
I wonder what a proper fullcaster would be like with something akin to the Law of Sequence in play. With spells that don't suck, the inability to cast the same spell more than once during its duration could be interesting.

A Law of Sequence isn't as much of an issue for other casters. For one thing, other casters get multi-target buffs/debuffs before level 17. The limited uses/day also serves as a balancing mechanism that obviates the need for either Law. Finally, spells have a lot more redundancy than utterances, invocations and what have you. (e.g. I cast Bull's Strength on him and Enlarge Person on you, for a simple example.)

Lans
2010-11-12, 09:31 PM
Again, Heightening a Utterance gets around Law of Sequence. You can use it now you don't have to wait.
Is heighten that obscure a rule in the book of Truenamer section?
Yes, in fact it only exists due to how badly written the truenaming section is.

Calmar
2010-11-13, 08:37 AM
Actually, you don't need a creature's personal truename to use utterances on it. 90% of the time you would be saying something akin to "tarrasque-who-is-charging-my-friends-at-12pm-on-sunday!" or something similar, rather than the creature's own unique identifier. The high truespeak DC just represents how hard it is to articulate/pronounce utterances that can affect such a powerful creature. (With an additional +5 to bypass his SR.)

Oh, ok. Sounds more like a "Perfect-describer-of-empirical-observations-of-current-events" than truenamer to me. :smallconfused:

Psyren
2010-11-13, 11:08 AM
Oh, ok. Sounds more like a "Perfect-describer-of-empirical-observations-of-current-events" than truenamer to me. :smallconfused:

Well, think about it. If you couldn't use general truenames you'd need to know the personal truename of every tom, gnoll and harry you might possibly encounter over the course of your adventures in order to have any effect on them. Worse, it can actually be harder to find out the truenames of faceless mooks than their much more powerful boss. It would be a pretty absurd system.

However, there are benefits to knowing personal truenames. You get +2 to the save DC on utterances that incorporate the name, +2 to caster level checks to beat their SR, and they're a requirement for any spells with the "T" component. In exchange, you have to go through the hoops of researching them, and they are harder to say (+2 DC on the truespeech check, which works out to 10% increased chance of failure.)

Kyeudo's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488) (I'm pimping this a lot lately, but he deserves it!) incorporates some more neat uses for personal truenames, including those of objects.

true_shinken
2010-11-13, 11:12 AM
Truenaming has phenomenal fluff. (Actually, ToM in general has great fluff.)

So many consider fixing the class as a labor of love, as opposed to say, Soulknife or Samurai.

But I love the Soulknife >.<

Psyren
2010-11-13, 11:17 AM
But I love the Soulknife >.<

Soulbound Weapon Psywar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)
You're welcome :smalltongue:

true_shinken
2010-11-13, 11:18 AM
Soulbound Weapon Psywar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)
You're welcome :smalltongue:

Wasting a standard action to get your weapons? No psychic strike? Sucky skill list? Where is my d10 Hit Dice? No, thanks.

Psyren
2010-11-13, 11:26 AM
Wasting a standard action to get your weapons?

You can use regular weapons just fine. The weapon calling is for when you're locked in jail etc.


No psychic strike?

Sucks anyway, unless you don't really want to full attack.


Sucky skill list?

Free feats? An actual use for their PP?


Where is my d10 Hit Dice?

With somewhat less sarcasm than I initially wrote - a d10 vs. a d8 is not going to compensate for the soulknife's other crippling weaknesses.


No, thanks.

Same fluff, a fort save, martial weapon and heavy armor proficiency, and it's actually psionic. Yes please.

true_shinken
2010-11-13, 12:00 PM
You can use regular weapons just fine. The weapon calling is for when you're locked in jail etc.
But I don't want that. I want my own psychic energy weapons.



Sucks anyway, unless you don't really want to full attack.
Mind Cleave.



Free feats? An actual use for their PP?
I don't want that as well.




With somewhat less sarcasm than I initially wrote - a d10 vs. a d8 is not going to compensate for the soulknife's other crippling weaknesses.
I don't want to compensate anything. I don't care about the weaknesses. I just want to reliably use a psychic energy weapon.



Same fluff, a fort save, martial weapon and heavy armor proficiency, and it's actually psionic. Yes please.
But I don't want that. I couldn't care less about heavy armor. I want a light-armored, skillful skirmished using his mind to create a weapon. The Soulknife does that. Is it weaker than the Psychic Warrior? Of course it is. It's not a problem for me anyway.

Psyren
2010-11-13, 12:12 PM
Is it weaker than the Psychic Warrior? Of course it is. It's not a problem for me anyway.

*Shrug* suit yourself.
(And the Soulbound weapon is "your own psychic energy weapon.")

true_shinken
2010-11-13, 12:17 PM
*Shrug* suit yourself.
(And the Soulbound weapon is "your own psychic energy weapon.")

...one that I can't use reliably because it takes a standard action to summon. :smallsigh:

Psyren
2010-11-13, 12:24 PM
...one that I can't use reliably because it takes a standard action to summon. :smallsigh:

So Quicken it. It's first-level.

true_shinken
2010-11-13, 12:47 PM
So Quicken it. It's first-level.
Waiting until 5th level to actually do something is not my thing. If I can do it from 1st level with a Soulknife, why bother going through 5 levels of Psychic Warrior to do it?

Psyren
2010-11-13, 12:50 PM
Waiting until 5th level to actually do something is not my thing. If I can do it from 1st level with a Soulknife, why bother going through 5 levels of Psychic Warrior to do it?

You do realize Soulknives don't get Free Draw until 5th level, right?

true_shinken
2010-11-13, 12:57 PM
You do realize Soulknives don't get Free Draw until 5th level, right?
They also don't need a standard action to draw their weapons. Just a move action. And it has no time limit, so it can be used before combat.

Psyren
2010-11-13, 01:01 PM
So before level 5, Soulknives can pull out their weapon faster and start performing badly sooner. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, be a soulknife if you want.

Kobold-Bard
2010-11-13, 06:04 PM
Play Xallace's Soulblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100035) instead of the Soulknife. the Incarnumy goodness will heal you :smallsmile:

Starbuck_II
2010-11-13, 06:16 PM
Speaking of Truenamer. Has anyone created a 9th level Utterance progression/Truenamer?
The current Truenamer is like a Bard (up to 6th).

You'd probably get faster progression of utterances, more of them, so on (Sorceror and Bard comparison).

I rather like the second level utterance Strike of Might (+10 damage on next strike).

Psyren
2010-11-13, 06:32 PM
Play Xallace's Soulblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100035) instead of the Soulknife. the Incarnumy goodness will heal you :smallsmile:

Or if you don't want to mix Incarnum with your Psionics (even though they taste great together!) use the Dreamscarred Press Soulknife. (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/soulknife) Those guys know what they're doing.

(This is evidenced by the article beginning with an apology for the WotC soulknife :smallbiggrin:)

Anyhoo, back to Truenaming:


Speaking of Truenamer. Has anyone created a 9th level Utterance progression/Truenamer?
The current Truenamer is like a Bard (up to 6th).

You'd probably get faster progression of utterances, more of them, so on (Sorceror and Bard comparison).

I rather like the second level utterance Strike of Might (+10 damage on next strike).

Honestly, I don't think one is needed. The highest-level utterances already correspond to high-level spells (e.g. Conjunctive Gate, Greater Word of Nurturing, Deny Passage.) And Kyeudo made some more Utterances along those same lines, like Unname and Words of Creation.

(Note that this is another class with officially-sanctioned homebrew: see ToM pg. 203.)

Tvtyrant
2010-11-13, 06:49 PM
You could just play a Shadowsmith instead of a Soulknife. They get the same thing in ten levels that a Soulknife gets in twenty. And full BaB. Also cooler. Just saying.

The sad part about TN is that it could have been so cool (like the Speaking Gun), but instead they made it equivalent to a Bard instead of a Sorc.

Kyeudo
2010-11-14, 01:54 AM
The sad part about TN is that it could have been so cool (like the Speaking Gun), but instead they made it equivalent to a Bard instead of a Sorc.

Actually, I think the Truenamer's intended role in the party is much the same as the Bard. Some utility spells, some healing, lots of buffing and debuffing, and a fairly good fluff reason to invest in social skills and knowledge skills. That's where I mostly aimed with my fix.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-14, 01:58 AM
Actually, I think the Truenamer's intended role in the party is much the same as the Bard. Some utility spells, some healing, lots of buffing and debuffing, and a fairly good fluff reason to invest in social skills and knowledge skills. That's where I mostly aimed with my fix.

Which is fine, but Bards are not...Tier 1 or 2. If you miss when trying to make a Cleric or Wizard you get some reasonably powerful classes (Shadowcaster), but if you shoot for okay and miss you get Truenamer. If it worked it would be fine, but trying to make something crazy powerful makes it less likely to suck.

Kyeudo
2010-11-14, 02:00 AM
Which is fine, but Bards are not...Tier 1 or 2. If you miss when trying to make a Cleric or Wizard you get some reasonably powerful classes (Shadowcaster), but if you shoot for okay and miss you get Truenamer. If it worked it would be fine, but trying to make something crazy powerful makes it less likely to suck.

What happens if you overshoot your mark? You don't want to end up with the Lightning Warrior with a familiar.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-14, 02:38 AM
What happens if you overshoot your mark? You don't want to end up with the Lightning Warrior with a familiar.

I think its a lot easier to see when something is too strong then too weak. How much more effort is put into "proving" monk is a useful class then is put into showing that wizards aren't too strong? Besides which, it would take statements like "the Truenamer never loses" to beat wizards.

Lans
2010-11-14, 02:45 AM
Also when your making a class you probably optimize it up in your head.

Psyren
2010-11-14, 11:31 AM
You could just play a Shadowsmith instead of a Soulknife. They get the same thing in ten levels that a Soulknife gets in twenty. And full BaB. Also cooler. Just saying.

Actually, Shadowsmiths are pretty lacking in key areas compared to a Soulknife. (Horrifying, I know):

- +5 maximum enhacement bonus (Soulknives get +9 effectively.)
- Standard action to create magic weapons/armor.
- Require separate craft checks to create magic weapons/armor
- Cannot function *at all* in AMFs
- Already small enhancement pool must be divided between multiple items.
- The mysteries are tacked-on and very weak. Worse, they are subject to ASF. (This isn't a point against them relative to soulknife, just a pet peeve.)

The flavor is great but they don't do too well in practice. I would give them a cumulative +1 bonus they could apply to creations at each level of the PrC, let them outfit the party for minutes instead of rounds (their shadow armor should carry no ASF either) and cut the mysteries entirely. At the cap you should be able to mimic Major Creation, except you can simulate cold iron as well.


Which is fine, but Bards are not...Tier 1 or 2. If you miss when trying to make a Cleric or Wizard you get some reasonably powerful classes (Shadowcaster), but if you shoot for okay and miss you get Truenamer. If it worked it would be fine, but trying to make something crazy powerful makes it less likely to suck.

I'm not sure I understand where you're going here. Yes, standard Truenamer is weak, but I'm a staunch supporter of Kyeudo's fix - it kept all the flavor and fixed most if not all of the issues. What's the problem?

At all levels it seems quite able to hold its own, at least to me.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-14, 05:35 PM
I don't have a problem with his fix. My point was that if they had aimed at a higher class then it wouldn't need as much fixing in the first place.
And as great as a fix can be, its not going to be available the majority of people who bought the book in the first place, just those that are on the forum.

Psyren
2010-11-14, 06:38 PM
I don't have a problem with his fix. My point was that if they had aimed at a higher class then it wouldn't need as much fixing in the first place.

Ah, I see your point now. But in all honesty, what would they have aimed at? Shadowcaster was already aimed at wiz/sorc (with only slightly better results) and Binders were aimed at Clerics/Paladins.

We're talking about a class whose entire magical repertoire comes from their voice. Bard was the logical analogue, with a focus on oration rather than singing.

I think their aim was just fine - the problem is that the book was rushed out with little playtesting time given to the other two classes. Perhaps they spent so much time on the Binder that they didn't have time to lend the others a hand. Or maybe they just lacked time in general and got lucky with the Binder. Either way, it ended up the only balanced class in the book.



And as great as a fix can be, its not going to be available the majority of people who bought the book in the first place, just those that are on the forum.

True, but the only solution available to those people anyway is (a) homebrewing something themselves or (b) not playing Truenamers at all. I'm confident that any attempt to play truenamers as written will lead those disillusioned players to the web in search of functional fare, especially in this day and age.

Hell, it could even end up bringing new blood to the Playground :smallsmile: in that respect, WotC has done good indeed.

true_shinken
2010-11-14, 07:31 PM
True, but the only solution available to those people anyway is (a) homebrewing something themselves or (b) not playing Truenamers at all. I'm confident that any attempt to play truenamers as written will lead those disillusioned players to the web in search of functional fare, especially in this day and age.

Actually, with crazy optimization Truenamers are not that bad. The most hated villain in my game is a tiefling Truenamer - she can quicken her utterances 4 times each against same level targets before she needs to roll to see if they succeed.

Psyren
2010-11-14, 08:22 PM
Actually, with crazy optimization Truenamers are not that bad. The most hated villain in my game is a tiefling Truenamer - she can quicken her utterances 4 times each against same level targets before she needs to roll to see if they succeed.

Where are the extra swift actions coming from?

And yes, I meant without "crazy optimization"

Urpriest
2010-11-14, 08:24 PM
Where are the extra swift actions coming from?

And yes, I meant without "crazy optimization"

I assume he meant in a day, not a round.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-14, 08:25 PM
with "crazy optimization" almost anything is okay. I believe that there was a rather in depth journal that a PC made that was linked earlier in this very thread where he played one for 9 months and said Monk was stronger at the end of it.

true_shinken
2010-11-14, 08:25 PM
I assume he meant in a day, not a round.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Psyren
2010-11-14, 08:44 PM
with "crazy optimization" almost anything is okay. I believe that there was a rather in depth journal that a PC made that was linked earlier in this very thread where he played one for 9 months and said Monk was stronger at the end of it.

That would be Zaq, and yes, he had to twink the hell out of the class to make it work (though he did a great job.)

The thing is, for anyone to achieve that level of optimization they will need the internet; that kind of encyclopedic knowledge of source material comes from being part of a gaming community like this one. Which means they will have access to homebrew/fixes, which leads right back to my original point.

true_shinken
2010-11-14, 08:51 PM
That would be Zaq, and yes, he had to twink the hell out of the class to make it work (though he did a great job.)

The thing is, for anyone to achieve that level of optimization they will need the internet; that kind of encyclopedic knowledge of source material comes from being part of a gaming community like this one. Which means they will have access to homebrew/fixes, which leads right back to my original point.

It does make sense.
Though optimizing skill checks is rather easy. If you have Unearthed Arcana and Tome of Magic, you will realize that an amulet of silver tongue + item familiar is usually enough to be decent as a truenamer. Of course, item familiars are awfully broken.
The truenamer is an awfully written class indeed. It's a shame; the concept is awesome.

Psyren
2010-11-14, 09:08 PM
We're beginning to retread old territory so I'll switch gears a bit.

Has anyone tried the Acolyte of the Ego? I see it as sort of like the Shadowsmith or Incarnum Blade - a full-BAB class with just a splash of another system.

I was thinking that maybe it would get around some of the problems the regular truenamer has - after all, you're only ever speaking your own truename, so the scaling shouldn't be as large a problem, right? You always get that +4 bonus too.

The benefits seem decent - you can make yourself immune to sneaks/criticals, dimension door up to 500 feet, get up to a +5 luck bonus to all saves, gain insight bonuses to your attributes etc.

Are any of the Truename PrCs good? (I've heard Fiendbinder is playable but I haven't actually read it in-depth.)

true_shinken
2010-11-14, 09:16 PM
Has anyone tried the Acolyte of the Ego? I see it as sort of like the Shadowsmith or Incarnum Blade - a full-BAB class with just a splash of another system.

Though I never tried it, Acolyte of the Ego strikes me as the best of the three mentioned classes. Shadowsmith does not pull it's own tricks very well and Incarnum Blade is sadly very underpowered.

Gametime
2010-11-14, 09:33 PM
Are any of the Truename PrCs good? (I've heard Fiendbinder is playable but I haven't actually read it in-depth.)

I've never actually played one, but I always thought Disciple of the Word seemed like all-upside for monks (aside from the 1 skillpoint/level you need to blow on Truespeak). The feats come right out of monk levels, you get the BAB in six levels (which is a fine jumping off point for monk), and it advances everything you care about while giving you extra tricks.*

The early abilities aren't great, but they can be nifty. Word of Movement Sublime helps make up for the loss of that skill slot by letting you use Truespeak in place of Balance, Climb, or Jump checks. Word of the Strike Unstoppable lets you ignore damage reduction, even epic damage reduction, with a high enough check.

Later abilities give the monk a bit more utility. Word of the Fist Unraveling lets you dispel stuff, but with a skill check, so you'll likely be able to beat any non-optimized caster checks. Word of Harm Avoided lets you block attacks, and Mystic Deflection lets you block spells. Word of Speed Unfettered lets you move as an immediate action.

None of the abilities "fix" the monk, but they do give it some versatility and options. While the uses are limited per day, you still get quite a few. The DCs can be really freakin' high, but since they're set instead of scaling (except for the opposed ones) you at least know what number you have to shoot for.

Again, seems like pretty much all upside for the monk. Then again, that's not a particularly high standard, and Tashalatora is also basically all upside but better, so...

*Assuming you interpret the "monk abilities" section as meaning that flurry of blows penalties are reduced. The book actually specifically calls out flurry of blows penalties as being both progressed and not progressed. Fantastic editing, really.

Psyren
2010-11-14, 09:46 PM
Good point Gametime - I think this is the only monk PrC anywhere that can overcome all types of DR without casting. (all the non-alignment ones anyway.)

Since you're stuck with Stunning Fist, you may as well go Carmendine monk and optimize Int. You even become a little more SAD because of all the things you can replace with a Truespeech check.

You're right, I like this one. Not as good as Tattooed Monk, but definitely among the top non-caster monks I think :smallsmile:

true_shinken
2010-11-14, 09:59 PM
You're right, I like this one. Not as good as Tattooed Monk, but definitely among the top non-caster monks I think :smallsmile:
Is 3.5 tattoed monk that good, though? I remember 3.0 one was pretty badass, but I thought they nerfed it...

Kyeudo
2010-11-14, 10:00 PM
Has anyone tried the Acolyte of the Ego? I see it as sort of like the Shadowsmith or Incarnum Blade - a full-BAB class with just a splash of another system.

I was thinking that maybe it would get around some of the problems the regular truenamer has - after all, you're only ever speaking your own truename, so the scaling shouldn't be as large a problem, right? You always get that +4 bonus too.

The benefits seem decent - you can make yourself immune to sneaks/criticals, dimension door up to 500 feet, get up to a +5 luck bonus to all saves, gain insight bonuses to your attributes etc.


The Acolyte of the Ego doesn't really have much to recomend it. It gains a few truename versions of low level buff spells and only gains 10 of these effects over 10 levels. An Eldritch Knight can pull off the same tricks, more tricks, and maintain similar attack bonuses.



Are any of the Truename PrCs good? (I've heard Fiendbinder is playable but I haven't actually read it in-depth.)

Fiendbinder is good, but that's because its a Cleric or Wizard who has dabbled in Truename Magic, rather than a Truenamer that dabbles in demons. The Fiendbinder gains all the added power of an outsider cohort on top of his spellcasting.

Disciple of the Word is an improvement over Monk in many ways, but then most Monk prestige classes are. Heck, Monk 1/Cleric 19 is an improvement over Monk 20. Its capstone ability (the extra move action in a round) is one of those things that Monks really need to make their existing class features synergize.

Note, however, that none of the Truename Prestige classes advance the Truenamer. All of them are for those that want to dabble in Truenaming after coming from somewhere else.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-14, 10:26 PM
I wonder if you could toss fiendbinder on top of Malconvoker. The ultimate in summoning.

The Shadowmind
2010-11-14, 10:45 PM
What is the duration of the Summon Fiends ability for the Fiendbinder? All I'm seeing it counts as a 9th level spells, and caster level is equal to character level.

Psyren
2010-11-14, 10:46 PM
Is 3.5 tattoed monk that good, though? I remember 3.0 one was pretty badass, but I thought they nerfed it...

IMO, the Chameleon tattoo alone (hours/level Alter Self, tattoos/day, supernatural) makes the PrC worth it; the others like Crane (three monk abilities in one) are just icing on the cake.


The Acolyte of the Ego doesn't really have much to recomend it. It gains a few truename versions of low level buff spells and only gains 10 of these effects over 10 levels. An Eldritch Knight can pull off the same tricks, more tricks, and maintain similar attack bonuses.

I was more comparing it to non-caster PrCs. Say, a low-magic campaign where things like Incarnum Blade or Spellcarved Soldier were an option, but Eldritch Knight and JPM weren't. I agree that anything that advances casting would mop the floor with it, but that goes without saying really.


Note, however, that none of the Truename Prestige classes advance the Truenamer. All of them are for those that want to dabble in Truenaming after coming from somewhere else.

That does sadden me, especially since shadowcaster and Binder got PrCs they could actually use coming from their base classes.

Bereft at the very least should have advanced Truenamer - since the fluff hinges around finding the Ultimate Utterance, it makes no sense to approach it from anywhere else.

Kyeudo
2010-11-15, 12:14 AM
I wonder if you could toss fiendbinder on top of Malconvoker. The ultimate in summoning.

Can't. Malconvokers are always good, Fiendbinders can't be good. Even though a Fiendbinder wrote the Malconvoker handbook.


I was more comparing it to non-caster PrCs. Say, a low-magic campaign where things like Incarnum Blade or Spellcarved Soldier were an option, but Eldritch Knight and JPM weren't. I agree that anything that advances casting would mop the floor with it, but that goes without saying really.


A straight-classed Warblade gets better than an optimized Acolyte of the Ego. A Paladin or Ranger looks better to me than an Acolyte of the Ego. They have options, Acolytes don't.

However, the idea for Acolyte of the Ego was awesome, which is why I merged it with the Disciple of the Word for my version of the Acolyte of the Ego. Master yourself, master the world.



That does sadden me, especially since shadowcaster and Binder got PrCs they could actually use coming from their base classes.

Bereft at the very least should have advanced Truenamer - since the fluff hinges around finding the Ultimate Utterance, it makes no sense to approach it from anywhere else.

This is why the Bereft became a single 6th level utterance when I wrote my fix, Fiendbinder became more Truespeak dependant, and I added two theruge classes for arcane and divine. The best Truenamer is still a straight Truenamer (and really, that should have been the case with all classes), but a Truenamer has advancement options other than just Truenamer.

This reminds me, I still need to write up those two classes and add them to my fix . . .

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 12:17 AM
Can't. Malconvokers are always good, Fiendbinders can't be good. Even though a Fiendbinder wrote the Malconvoker handbook.



Sorry mate, but Malconvokers are just "any none evil," so they are not infact mutually exclusive.

Psyren
2010-11-15, 12:26 AM
Can't. Malconvokers are always good, Fiendbinders can't be good. Even though a Fiendbinder wrote the Malconvoker handbook.

The adaptation lets you drop that pesky restriction actually :smallsmile: They even attach the Malconvoker's fluff.
(ToM pg. 227)


A straight-classed Warblade gets better than an optimized Acolyte of the Ego. A Paladin or Ranger looks better to me than an Acolyte of the Ego. They have options, Acolytes don't.

I agree, but I'm still wondering how it would compare to IB and SS. (I know those options are all weaker than a Warblade, but most non-ToB melee is going to shrivel up in the lockerroom next to that :smalltongue:)


However, the idea for Acolyte of the Ego was awesome, which is why I merged it with the Disciple of the Word for my version of the Acolyte of the Ego. Master yourself, master the world.

Oh I'm definitely on board with your take on it. They have the same fluff even ("Check me out, I know my own truename, look what I can do!") so I too found it odd how different WotC thought they were.


This is why the Bereft became a single 6th level utterance when I wrote my fix.

I saw that... I kind of liked the fluff though - a Super-Utterance so powerful that even its syllables were dangerous. Condensing it to one Utterance kind of killed that.

Maybe if it were an Utterance-chain? (A sort of pre-epic version of the epic invocations.) This is idle speculation on my part of course.

Kyeudo
2010-11-15, 12:33 AM
I saw that... I kind of liked the fluff though - a Super-Utterance so powerful that even its syllables were dangerous. Condensing it to one Utterance kind of killed that.

Maybe if it were an Utterance-chain? (A sort of pre-epic version of the epic invocations.) This is idle speculation on my part of course.

The problem with the Bereft was that its class abilities, the syllables, were outmatched by utterances, which were themselves outmatched by spells. The word of unmaking also only worked on someone already dead and who you knew their personal truename already, so it didn't do much for you.

Psyren
2010-11-15, 11:13 AM
The problem with the Bereft was that its class abilities, the syllables, were outmatched by utterances, which were themselves outmatched by spells. The word of unmaking also only worked on someone already dead and who you knew their personal truename already, so it didn't do much for you.

Oh, I know it was a mechanical failure; I was talking about salvaging the fluff.

Maybe make it like an Archmage-style PrC. You advance truenaming 5/5 but sacrifice utterances of various levels, trading them in for Syllables of Unmaking. And of course, the final utterance would be far more powerful than the version in the book. Say, in addition to being able to erase people from reality (duplicating the Unmake utterance, with a penalty on the fort save or something), you can give it a chance to destroy artifacts based on your truespeak check, or strip away an individual or outsider's spellcasting ability (as a failed Disjunction.)

Psyx
2010-11-15, 11:18 AM
Imagine Wizards got the amazing idea to make a magic system limited not by uses nor by saves, but by skill checks.
Now imagine the skill checks were oppressively hard and the spells sucked anyway.

Now imagine your entire skill being mostly mooted by not-too-expensive items that add 20 to the skill check.


It was just a nice idea that was stupidly implemented.

Kyeudo
2010-11-15, 12:44 PM
Maybe make it like an Archmage-style PrC. You advance truenaming 5/5 but sacrifice utterances of various levels, trading them in for Syllables of Unmaking. And of course, the final utterance would be far more powerful than the version in the book. Say, in addition to being able to erase people from reality (duplicating the Unmake utterance, with a penalty on the fort save or something), you can give it a chance to destroy artifacts based on your truespeak check, or strip away an individual or outsider's spellcasting ability (as a failed Disjunction.)

I see how I could implement that as a class (just a bit of special wording on the truespeaking advancement note), but it would need class feature utterances that didn't duplicate existing utterances and I don't know if I want to take Unmake away from regular Truenamers just for the sake of adding a prestige class.

Psyx
2010-11-15, 01:02 PM
I quite liked the idea of simply having 'normal' spells that also required a Truespeak check to kick off, but had additional effects. Shame there weren't many published, and that they weren't very good!

true_shinken
2010-11-15, 01:05 PM
Really, truenaming should be a part of spellcasting. We already have the Power Word line of spells and the like. Skill-based spellcasting sure is interesting, but I don't think truenaming was a good choice for that.

Psyren
2010-11-15, 01:07 PM
That's why I said the ability to duplicate Unmake could be just one use of that utterance. :smallsmile: Bereft could then have a new meaning - not a reference to those who have given up their original truename (your Forgotten PrC does a better job with that fluff anyway), but rather to the targets of this specialized Truenaming cabal, who have had their memories, powers and in extreme cases their very existence stripped away by the Forbidden Word.

Their described role - as custodians of the Word - would make more sense if they were skilled and specialized Truenamers. And of course, they would hunt down those rogue Truenamers and Bereft who seek to rewrite reality for their own ends.

I also find it more than a little silly that even the highest-level Truenamers are incapable of a Ritual of Renaming, and must rely on a "real caster's help." In the case of individuals who have been wiped from reality, a cleric is already necessary for True Resurrection (or wizard, for 2x Wish), so the RoR itself should be doable by a Truenamer solo, imo.

Kyeudo
2010-11-15, 01:36 PM
Stripping memories sounds interesting and powers sounds like a very good capstone or near capstone, provided some method existed to reverse the curse. Existance, though, is already covered in Unmake's personal truename effect, so how would the Bereft make removing a creature from existance a different effect?

On the subject of ritual of renaming, I've thought about implementing "Rituals" as a form of especially potent Truenaming. They take like 10 minutes to perform properly, but they have effects on par with a full duration wizard spell, instead of incredibly short duration effects.

Psyren
2010-11-15, 03:12 PM
Stripping memories sounds interesting and powers sounds like a very good capstone or near capstone, provided some method existed to reverse the curse. Existance, though, is already covered in Unmake's personal truename effect, so how would the Bereft make removing a creature from existance a different effect?

Maybe the final syllable of the Forbidden Word is Unmake itself. (And thus, Bereft get it free.) Saying the whole thing gives Bereft the same ability... but they don't have to pay the XP cost, or they pay a smaller one, or the fort save is harder etc. Or maybe it gives the caster a negative level unless they're a Bereft. There's lots of ways to take it.


On the subject of ritual of renaming, I've thought about implementing "Rituals" as a form of especially potent Truenaming. They take like 10 minutes to perform properly, but they have effects on par with a full duration wizard spell, instead of incredibly short duration effects.

Just wanted to note that RoR takes an hour to cast, so feel free to bump up the speech time on that one at least. (It's definitely a plot spell anyway.)
"Rituals" gets us uncomfortably close to 4e territory :smalltongue: but "recitations" are already taken. How about "discourse" or "oration"?

Kyeudo
2010-11-15, 03:37 PM
Maybe the final syllable of the Forbidden Word is Unmake itself. (And thus, Bereft get it free.) Saying the whole thing gives Bereft the same ability... but they don't have to pay the XP cost, or they pay a smaller one, or the fort save is harder etc. Or maybe it gives the caster a negative level unless they're a Bereft. There's lots of ways to take it.


Then we run into the problem with the Ectopic Adept. They tried to errata in a nonsense restriction just to give a capstone ability to the Ectopic Adept that let you get around the stupid restriction once a day.

I'm fine with the utterance Unmake being just one syllable of the entire Forbidden Word, but how do you kill someone more than super-dead? Kill everyone nearby super-dead?



Just wanted to note that RoR takes an hour to cast, so feel free to bump up the speech time on that one at least. (It's definitely a plot spell anyway.)
"Rituals" gets us uncomfortably close to 4e territory :smalltongue: but "recitations" are already taken. How about "discourse" or "oration"?

The speaking time is variable. As to 4e having dibs on 'ritual', I say screw 4e. It's not the same game as 3.5.

Still, perhaps ritual is the wrong word. Perhaps "Chant" would be better.

Psyren
2010-11-15, 04:26 PM
Then we run into the problem with the Ectopic Adept. They tried to errata in a nonsense restriction just to give a capstone ability to the Ectopic Adept that let you get around the stupid restriction once a day.

I'm fine with the utterance Unmake being just one syllable of the entire Forbidden Word, but how do you kill someone more than super-dead? Kill everyone nearby super-dead?

Well that's the rub. The way I saw it, the most powerful instances of Truename magic are/were the ones where Truenaming and normal spellcasting were combined. Unname and the Ritual of Renaming are prime examples - they are both very high-level spells with difficult Truename components, rather than being just spells or just utterances. The Truespeech check adds that extra layer of complexity to balance their increased power.

In ToM, the power to erase a Truename can be gotten via two sources; the Unname spell, and the Bereft capstone. The former works on a living creature (but you must have its personal truename); the latter only works on a corpse (but you don't need their personal truename.) I think that distinction is the key.

Unname (your version) can kill a creature, or remove it from reality if you know its personal truename. The Forbidden Word can do the same, even if you don't know their personal truename (which is why it's so dangerous and must be safeguarded.) It just needs a power level boost/tweak to let it work on living creatures. I think the flavor is still solid though.

Also, because each syllable is an utterance in its own right, using the FW should probably take longer - say, a full-round action imo.

Kyeudo
2010-11-15, 09:10 PM
So, class feature-wise, a Bereft will have something like the following truespeak-based abilities:

Cause damage
Remove memories of someone or something
Remove supernatural, spell-like, and extraordinary abilities
Kill a creature instantly
Remove something entirely from existance.


That seems suitible for a 5 level, end of progression class to me. Should any of these abilities be AoE?

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 10:51 PM
I don't know about fluff, but damage at high levels should either be fantastic (disintegrate) or AoE. Otherwise its pointless.

Kyeudo
2010-11-15, 11:52 PM
I don't know about fluff, but damage at high levels should either be fantastic (disintegrate) or AoE. Otherwise its pointless.

What about damage comboed with a debuff?

Psyren
2010-11-15, 11:58 PM
So, class feature-wise, a Bereft will have something like the following truespeak-based abilities:

Cause damage
Remove memories of someone or something
Remove supernatural, spell-like, and extraordinary abilities
Kill a creature instantly
Remove something entirely from existance.


That seems suitible for a 5 level, end of progression class to me. Should any of these abilities be AoE?

Cause damage: Yes (untyped of course) and bypassing all resistance/DR/regen. xd6 per syllable learned allows it to scale.

I think "remove memories" and "remove abilities" should be swapped. Memory removal generally translates to level drain, which is stronger than shutting down abilities; it can potentially do that anyway, and also potentially kill the target, and doesn't require a save to boot. So remove abilities would come second. You could model this the easy way (ability damage) or the hard way (actually excising a creature's (Su), (Sp) and possibly even (Ex) abilties.) While the second approach sounds cooler, it's a bit powerful - should it be temporary? I can't think of a class with a similar ability to compare it to. Removing general casting ability would be a simple matter of porting over the MDJ "failure" option, but again this seems a but powerful for the middle of the progression.

Kill a creature - self explanatory, this is Unname without the PT component.
Bereft thus get it for free.

Remove something from existence - I like that you specified "something" - meaning this can be used to erase creatures and items. On creatures, this would be like Unname with the PT component. For items, they simply vanish. Specific magic items must be Renamed just as characters must be, but they do not require a Resurrection or Wish to return - they simply reappear wherever they vanished at the ritual's conclusion. (You may need a Wish to retrieve the item in question.)

For AoE, they really don't need to be - a Truenamer entering this PrC can still SUtM his regular utterances, especially since you pushed that ability up earlier. This PrC thus represents greater focus at the cost of general truenaming versatility.

Kyeudo
2010-11-16, 12:58 AM
Cause damage: Yes (untyped of course) and bypassing all resistance/DR/regen. xd6 per syllable learned allows it to scale.


As magical damage, it would spike right through DR and as untyped damage would bypass energy resistances and immunity. I think I might leave Spell Resistance alone, as you can just add 5 to a Truespeak check's DC to get around Spell Resistance. The "bypass regeneration" thing is a good idea, as truenamers lack alot of energy damage.

As for the amount of the damage, I don't know about you, but I think only 5d6 damage maximum kind of sucks. Instead, I'd probably go with 1d6 per rank in Truespeak.

I'm also considering an AC, Saves, and attack roll debuff from the pain, maybe in the -4 range.



I think "remove memories" and "remove abilities" should be swapped. Memory removal generally translates to level drain, which is stronger than shutting down abilities; it can potentially do that anyway, and also potentially kill the target, and doesn't require a save to boot. So remove abilities would come second. You could model this the easy way (ability damage) or the hard way (actually excising a creature's (Su), (Sp) and possibly even (Ex) abilties.) While the second approach sounds cooler, it's a bit powerful - should it be temporary? I can't think of a class with a similar ability to compare it to. Removing general casting ability would be a simple matter of porting over the MDJ "failure" option, but again this seems a but powerful for the middle of the progression.


When I said remove memories, I didn't mean give people negative levels. We have an utterance for that already. I was talking about actually removing memories, much like the Forgotten can cause people to forget him. You use a Truespeak check to excise some named person or object from everyone's current memory, as though the thing never existed. Its actions happened, but no one remembers who or what did them. No one remembers when that building was built or by who, and so on.

As for removing abilities, I was thinking something like you name a spell, manuver, or other specific ability and the target can't use that ability for one minute. Knowledge checks or other preparation necessary, of course, as you can't take away something the target doesn't have, but that is in general theme for the truenamer.



Remove something from existence - I like that you specified "something" - meaning this can be used to erase creatures and items. On creatures, this would be like Unname with the PT component. For items, they simply vanish. Specific magic items must be Renamed just as characters must be, but they do not require a Resurrection or Wish to return - they simply reappear wherever they vanished at the ritual's conclusion. (You may need a Wish to retrieve the item in question.)


The super-super-dead effect that I plan to give Bereft's access to is that not only is the target dead and needs a ritual of renaming and a true ressurection to bring him back, but no one but the bereft remembers he ever existed, everything he was wearing is just gone, and if he ever is actually brought back to life it is denied access to every ability it has for a year and a day. Brutal enough for a '10th' level spell?

Psyren
2010-11-16, 08:53 AM
As for the amount of the damage, I don't know about you, but I think only 5d6 damage maximum kind of sucks. Instead, I'd probably go with 1d6 per rank in Truespeak.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was actually thinking 2d6 per syllable when I wrote that :smalltongue:

d6 per TS rank is a bit strong I think. A level 15 can spit out 18d6 per round, without an attack roll or saving throw, and it already gets around every defense - so it's outclassing wizard spells like Polar Ray. Sure you can flub the TS check, but that just means you get to try again, and failing also means the LoR doesn't kick in.

Tying it to Truespeak ranks is a good idea though, as that will allow it to keep scaling even after Bereft is finished. Maybe 1/2 Truespeak Ranks + 5, or 1/2 ranks + syllables known.



When I said remove memories, I didn't mean give people negative levels. We have an utterance for that already. I was talking about actually removing memories, much like the Forgotten can cause people to forget him. You use a Truespeak check to excise some named person or object from everyone's current memory, as though the thing never existed. Its actions happened, but no one remembers who or what did them. No one remembers when that building was built or by who, and so on.


That kind of reminds me of Balefire in WoT. I'm having trouble visualizing the crunch though. Is there a mechanical benefit/penalty to being forgotten that way? It's a nice way for the cabal to cover their tracks (though a little one-sided)



As for removing abilities, I was thinking something like you name a spell, manuver, or other specific ability and the target can't use that ability for one minute. Knowledge checks or other preparation necessary, of course, as you can't take away something the target doesn't have, but that is in general theme for the truenamer.


That works - and for spellcasters, you can turn off their highest level of spellcasting perhaps, or name a level for them to lose.



The super-super-dead effect that I plan to give Bereft's access to is that not only is the target dead and needs a ritual of renaming and a true ressurection to bring him back, but no one but the bereft remembers he ever existed, everything he was wearing is just gone, and if he ever is actually brought back to life it is denied access to every ability it has for a year and a day. Brutal enough for a '10th' level spell?

Could deities get around that?
Yes, rendering them a eunuch for a year and a day is pretty brutal :smalltongue: I'm not sure about vanishing their gear though. You run into the "too awesome to use" disjunction problem. Also, you wouldn't want to zap the Big Bad with this if he's holding the macguffin.

Kyeudo
2010-11-17, 03:36 PM
Sorry I wasn't clear, I was actually thinking 2d6 per syllable when I wrote that :smalltongue:

d6 per TS rank is a bit strong I think. A level 15 can spit out 18d6 per round, without an attack roll or saving throw, and it already gets around every defense - so it's outclassing wizard spells like Polar Ray. Sure you can flub the TS check, but that just means you get to try again, and failing also means the LoR doesn't kick in.

Tying it to Truespeak ranks is a good idea though, as that will allow it to keep scaling even after Bereft is finished. Maybe 1/2 Truespeak Ranks + 5, or 1/2 ranks + syllables known.


Perhaps something that is relatively fixed in value, like 15d6 + 1d6 per class level (not character level). I don't like basing things off of syllables, as why should learning some other word make this word stronger?



That kind of reminds me of Balefire in WoT. I'm having trouble visualizing the crunch though. Is there a mechanical benefit/penalty to being forgotten that way? It's a nice way for the cabal to cover their tracks (though a little one-sided)


Mechanical benefits or penalties? Not really, but the roleplaying benefits and penalties are massive. Make the king of a country be forgotton. Watch as it devolves into chaos because no one knows who their king was or where he went.



That works - and for spellcasters, you can turn off their highest level of spellcasting perhaps, or name a level for them to lose.


I was thinking more specific than that. Like name that a wizard can't cast Dominate Person or that a Psion can't manifest Astral Construct.


Could deities get around that?
Yes, rendering them a eunuch for a year and a day is pretty brutal :smalltongue: I'm not sure about vanishing their gear though. You run into the "too awesome to use" disjunction problem. Also, you wouldn't want to zap the Big Bad with this if he's holding the macguffin.

Deities can get around anything. Either they are using the epic rules and so can do whatever they want or they are powered by DM fiat and can do whatever they want. Take your pick.

Perhaps a better version would be that no one remembers they existed, they are dead, and if somehow someone still performs the ritual of renaming and true ressurection needed to bring them back, and then they still suffer some sort of penalty that isn't so long in duration (and wouldn't cause problems like vampires that can walk in sunlight), such as having no memory themselves.

Psyren
2010-11-17, 03:59 PM
Perhaps something that is relatively fixed in value, like 15d6 + 1d6 per class level (not character level). I don't like basing things off of syllables, as why should learning some other word make this word stronger?

Functionally it would be identical to scaling with class level, I just tied it to syllables as that's more justifiable in-universe. Nobody knows their class level, but a Bereft would know how much of the Word he has learned.

But since you ask, yes, learning more of a particular language does actually help you pronounce the parts you already know better. :smallsmile:

But as I said, there's no functional difference, so class level is a fine swap.


Mechanical benefits or penalties? Not really, but the roleplaying benefits and penalties are massive. Make the king of a country be forgotton. Watch as it devolves into chaos because no one knows who their king was or where he went.

See, that's the kind of thing that will make deities take notice and rub you out. Or you make everyone forget a deity and he starves to death with no worshipers. It kinda gets crazy at that point.

Even without the deity bit, killing a king is one thing. Erasing him from reality is also one thing. But erasing all memory of him while he still exists is surgical-level tampering. I'm not sure that should be available to mortals (certainly not PCs) at all. It's basically the Forgotten capstone, only usable at-will and targetable, and works instantly.


I was thinking more specific than that. Like name that a wizard can't cast Dominate Person or that a Psion can't manifest Astral Construct.

Nice, Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html) for D&D. I approve!




Deities can get around anything. Either they are using the epic rules and so can do whatever they want or they are powered by DM fiat and can do whatever they want. Take your pick.

Perhaps a better version would be that no one remembers they existed, they are dead, and if somehow someone still performs the ritual of renaming and true ressurection needed to bring them back, and then they still suffer some sort of penalty that isn't so long in duration (and wouldn't cause problems like vampires that can walk in sunlight), such as having no memory themselves.

Perhaps they regain their memory very slowly. I also like the idea of them being a blank slate, so they could restart at True Neutral alignment regardless of their alignment while alive. So you can sort of reform the Big Bad with this, without running into the stickiness of Sanctify the Wicked, and making him the biggest obstacle to restarting his own evil empire thanks to apathy.

Kyeudo
2010-11-17, 04:33 PM
See, that's the kind of thing that will make deities take notice and rub you out. Or you make everyone forget a deity and he starves to death with no worshipers. It kinda gets crazy at that point.


Targeting restrictions prevent getting rid of a god. He'd have to be within 60 feet of the bereft.



Even without the deity bit, killing a king is one thing. Erasing him from reality is also one thing. But erasing all memory of him while he still exists is surgical-level tampering. I'm not sure that should be available to mortals (certainly not PCs) at all. It's basically the Forgotten capstone, only usable at-will and targetable, and works instantly.


You haven't read the Forgotton in a while, have you? Forgotten are making people forget them from about level 7 onward. Their capstone is having no personal truename and being hard to truename.

I'm also considering the possibility of allowing a bereft to nuke all of the target's memories instead of memories about that target.



Nice, Meddling Mage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/116.html) for D&D. I approve!


I think that increasing the DC voluntarily probably should allow more than one thing to be forbidden at once, since the Law of Sequence would apply.



Perhaps they regain their memory very slowly. I also like the idea of them being a blank slate, so they could restart at True Neutral alignment regardless of their alignment while alive. So you can sort of reform the Big Bad with this, without running into the stickiness of Sanctify the Wicked, and making him the biggest obstacle to restarting his own evil empire thanks to apathy.

Revan all over again? :smallbiggrin:

I was thinking that such memory erasure could be countered by using yet another spell, such as a wish or miracle, to restore their lost memory but otherwise wouldn't end naturally.