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View Full Version : Time it takes for a distinct race to form?



Adisson
2010-11-11, 04:13 PM
I'm working on a timeline for a campaign setting I'm working on and several of my races were formed by a melding of two others. So I guess I'm trying to get a ballpark of how long in D&D time it would take for a distinct race to form out of such a union.

The races range in population from 20,000 to just about 1mil. Insofar as differences from the distinct race to their origins, there aren't that many, they're all humanoids and essentially the differences are minor at most, some secondary characteristics have changed (most notably, ears and heights have changed to some extent) but that's pretty much it.

I normally wouldn't concern myself with such details but it's important for the quests that I'm laying out that I have at least some sort of vague idea of when these things started occurring.

Hope this doesn't sound too strange. :smalleek:

Thanks

arguskos
2010-11-11, 04:15 PM
Minor cosmetic changes wouldn't take that long, biologically speaking. Depending on the breeding time of the species in question, you're probably looking at anywhere from a few centuries to a few thousand years. I'm not a biologist though, so take that as you will.

Marnath
2010-11-11, 04:17 PM
If I'm understanding you right, you're asking how long it takes two species, like lets say elves and humans, to blend together into a new species? It depends on if thats a goal or not. If every member of both species is committed, it could take as little as a single generation, due to every adult taking a mate from the other species. Otherwise? It could take hundreds or even thousands of generations, if it happens at all. It basically all depends on the rate they interbreed versus within their own species.

Kuma Kode
2010-11-11, 04:20 PM
Are we talking about a species or just an ethnic offshoot? Depending on the changes you're expecting, a hybrid "race" can be created in a single instance of reproduction, but if you're planning on them to have a cultural identity and their own genetic quirks, we're probably looking at a few thousand years, possibly hundreds of thousands of years. It depends on how fast the reproduction cycle is, how intense the interbreeding is, and whether or not there's an environmental pressure to change.

Adisson
2010-11-11, 04:20 PM
Thanks for the insight. Looks like I have to plug some numbers. That gives me a better idea of the timeline that I'm looking at though. :)

hamishspence
2010-11-11, 04:20 PM
In 3rd ed Faerun, Wood elves are supposed to have evolved from hybridization of Green Elves (also called Wild Elves) and Moon Elves, within a few generations.

However, this doesn't fit with older fluff, where Wood Elf was in the books used as just another term for more civilized Wild Elves.

Marnath
2010-11-11, 04:26 PM
In 3rd ed Faerun, Wood elves are supposed to have evolved from hybridization of Green Elves (also called Wild Elves) and Moon Elves, within a few generations.

However, this doesn't fit with older fluff, where Wood Elf was in the books used as just another term for more civilized Wild Elves.

Keep in mind that a "few" elven generations is probably several millenia. Given how many times all the cells in an entire human body are replaced, it's entirely possible that elves change a decent amount even within the same generation, especially with magic added in as a universal law.

hamishspence
2010-11-11, 04:29 PM
Possible. Maybe the 4E eladrin vs elves thing, applies.

So eladrin which have be away from a magical city long enough, become more elflike- and if they hybridize with elves, they form a race that falls between the two- wood elves.

Toptomcat
2010-11-11, 04:30 PM
In a 'typical' D&D campaign setting, speciation probably occurs rather more often due to wizardly expiriments (owlbears) or divine interference (drow) than due to actual evolutionary pressures.

Kaeso
2010-11-11, 04:30 PM
Aren't certain races, like dwarves and elves, created by their respective gods? If you want to introduce a new race, you could homebrew a god that created them to his image.

TheGeckoKing
2010-11-11, 04:30 PM
Depends how quickly your Epic level wizard can get ahold of time travel.

hamishspence
2010-11-11, 04:38 PM
Keep in mind that a "few" elven generations is probably several millenia.

"Several centuries" is the figure given in Races of Faerun. But the first great wood elven realm (Eaerlann), wasn't founded till around 5000 years after the Crown Wars ended and the various elven races started mingling.

silvadel
2010-11-11, 04:45 PM
I'm working on a timeline for a campaign setting I'm working on and several of my races were formed by a melding of two others. So I guess I'm trying to get a ballpark of how long in D&D time it would take for a distinct race to form out of such a union.

The races range in population from 20,000 to just about 1mil. Insofar as differences from the distinct race to their origins, there aren't that many, they're all humanoids and essentially the differences are minor at most, some secondary characteristics have changed (most notably, ears and heights have changed to some extent) but that's pretty much it.

I normally wouldn't concern myself with such details but it's important for the quests that I'm laying out that I have at least some sort of vague idea of when these things started occurring.

Hope this doesn't sound too strange. :smalleek:

Thanks

The problem with hybrid races are throwbacks and mules.

If you take a tiger and a lion and mate them, you may get a liger but it will almost always be sterile.

Horse + donkey = mule -- but mules are sterile.

Even if you had say mules that were NOT sterile -- a mule+mule might end up with something VERY different from a mule. Horse+donkey will always have h+d for each chromosome... mule+mule could have H+H D+D or H+D... This greater amount of difference is often why they are sterile -- it just doesnt work... But if it did work you would end up with something a little freakier and tending more towards one type or the other.

---

Technically if you really want a dwarflike-elf and you have a goodly amount of time to do it -- the best way would be to take elves and put them in a dwarven environment. Over time they would acquire dwarflike characteristics.

----

The deus ex machina to all of this is magic -- curses, spells, etc can turn one into another... I mean you could have a whole swampy area that was cursed by say the elves and anything in the area tends to end up as a lizard. It could have been forgotten ages ago, but a dwarven ship ended up off-course and landed there. After a couple of generations you could have swamp-dwelling dwarf-lizard hybrids.

hamishspence
2010-11-11, 04:50 PM
The problem with hybrid races are throwbacks and mules.

If you take a tiger and a lion and mate them, you may get a liger but it will almost always be sterile.

Horse + donkey = mule -- but mules are sterile.

Even if you had say mules that were NOT sterile -- a mule+mule might end up with something VERY different from a mule. Horse+donkey will always have h+d for each chromosome... mule+mule could have H+H D+D or H+D... This greater amount of difference is often why they are sterile -- it just doesnt work... But if it did work you would end up with something a little freakier and tending more towards one type or the other.

However- there are some notable exceptions. Sometimes quite different species (Bottlenose Dolphin, False Killer Whale) can produce offspring which are themselves fertile- called Wolphins.

So, even without magic- genetics can allow for fertile hybrids of notably different species.

Hmm- how different, might elf, dwarf, and human skeletons appear, to a biologist?

Adisson
2010-11-11, 04:52 PM
Thanks for all the information everybody. I'm not one to be too terribly concerned with sticking to real science, but I at least like to know what kinds of factors I should be looking at before i go "and here is where the science of this world is vastly vastly different from out own-- tadaa!" :)

Synapse
2010-11-11, 04:52 PM
Keep in mind that a "few" elven generations is probably several millenia. Given how many times all the cells in an entire human body are replaced, it's entirely possible that elves change a decent amount even within the same generation, especially with magic added in as a universal law.

well, actual species morphism occurs over many generations, usually three to four digits of generations. Short lived creatures are expected to change quicker but you'll still be looking at geologic time scales. Except for elves. Bastards mutate without even reproducing (Pathfinder elves change color to match any environment they live in for more than a couple years!).


tl;dr: You won't be able to make plausible creation of a species without at least a couple millennia to work with or without valid crossbreeds from the start (at which point they've always been the same species...).

try comparing to dogs instead... mixed breeds tend to form over a few decades of active effort.

hamishspence
2010-11-11, 04:56 PM
tl;dr: You won't be able to make plausible creation of a species without at least a couple millennia to work with or without valid crossbreeds from the start (at which point they've always been the same species...).


Not always. Sometimes valid crossbreeds are the same species but different subspecies (which can be physically rather distinct) sometimes they're different species but the same genus, and sometimes they're different genera.

The lines of classification can frequently be blurry.

Marnath
2010-11-11, 04:58 PM
tl;dr: You won't be able to make plausible creation of a species without at least a couple millennia to work with or without valid crossbreeds from the start (at which point they've always been the same species...).


MAGIC. Mmmaaaggiiiccccc! Magic? O.o
Discussion of real life biology is all well and good, but it's another thing entirely to predicate your response based soley on that when the fundamental laws of the universe are different. "A wizard did it" is cliche for a reason. :smalltongue:

Synapse
2010-11-11, 05:01 PM
Yeah :p Throw in a couple centuries if the intermingling was heavy, another two if it wasn't intentional and maybe another three if it was shunned. On daily life most people shouldn't even notice crossbreeds that take more than a generation to become standalone.

Marnath
2010-11-11, 05:13 PM
Yeah :p Throw in a couple centuries if the intermingling was heavy, another two if it wasn't intentional and maybe another three if it was shunned. On daily life most people shouldn't even notice crossbreeds that take more than a generation to become standalone.

Darn, I was hoping you'd disagree. I was gonna say:
"Tell me with a straight face that this http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs49/f/2009/156/8/5/Owl_Bear_by_BenWootten.jpg could possibly occur without magic being involved with the evolutionary process.:tongue:"

hamishspence
2010-11-11, 05:17 PM
A species of feathered, but non-avian, theropod, instead of going down the path of flight, goes quadrupedal, getting larger and larger.

Doesn't explain why so many front claws, though.

Toptomcat
2010-11-11, 05:22 PM
A species of feathered, but non-avian, theropod, instead of going down the path of flight, goes quadrupedal, getting larger and larger.

Doesn't explain why so many front claws, though.

Polydactyly is not terribly uncommon as a random mutation, really. It doesn't actually require a whole lot of explanation.

Marnath
2010-11-11, 05:23 PM
Thats an owlbear guys. A bear crossed with an owl....

hamishspence
2010-11-11, 05:25 PM
True. But you could get something vaguely similar (but with no hair, only feathers that might look like hair) with normal evolution.

Synapse
2010-11-11, 05:25 PM
A species of feathered, but non-avian, theropod, instead of going down the path of flight, goes quadrupedal, getting larger and larger.

Doesn't explain why so many front claws, though.

Isn't that more or less the backwards of dinosaur evolution? :p It's perfectly plausible for animals to become larger over the generations if the food supply increases accordingly beforehand. Kinda hard because the numbers tend to grow more than the sizes though.

hamishspence
2010-11-11, 05:27 PM
Therizinosaurs were big, feathered, and had enormous front claws- and might have been semi-quadrupedal.

They were herbivorous though.

Take a therizinosaur, modify the head a lot, and shorten the tail, and something a bit like an owlbear may start too appear.