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Akal Saris
2010-11-11, 04:46 PM
Hey all,

Has anyone here DM'd the 4E DM rewards version of the Tomb of Horrors before? I'm not talking about the fanmade version (which is for L11 rather than L7), and I'm not talking about the L11-L22 super module.

I've run the 3.5 conversion of ToH, so I'm pretty intimately familiar with the encounters themselves. But are the DCs, resistances, etc. of the encounters kosher, or are the numbers far off? Any suggestions to improve the conversion at all? I like the idea of a time limit, or perhaps a rival group of NPCs exploring as well.

I'll be running this for a group of 3 L8 PCs, probably a tank (grappling fighter), an avenger, and a bard.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-11, 05:45 PM
I was not aware that there's three versions of the TOH. The DM reward I got was for level 9, actually. What do you mean by "kosher", do you expect the TOH to be as difficult as the first-edition version, or as difficult as its third-edition remake, or as difficult as a normal 4E module?

Katana_Geldar
2010-11-11, 05:49 PM
There are two official versions:

The Level 9 dungeon that's a remake of ToH to 4E that was an RPGA members DM's reward. This is the one the OP is about.

The second one, which I am running, is the commerical super adventure that takes players from level 10 to 22. This is more a sequel to Cordell's 2nd Ed Return to the Tomb of Horrors.

And presumably there is a third unofficial conversion.

Akal Saris
2010-11-12, 12:49 AM
I was not aware that there's three versions of the TOH. The DM reward I got was for level 9, actually. What do you mean by "kosher", do you expect the TOH to be as difficult as the first-edition version, or as difficult as its third-edition remake, or as difficult as a normal 4E module?

Heh...valid question :P As difficult as a normal 4E module, actually. The 3rd edition version was about as tough as any other 3E module, except maybe for the mutant gargoyle and the bleakborn, both of which nearly slaughtered my players.

So it's for level 9? I just flipped through the first few pages and saw level 7-9 monsters, so I assumed it was lower level. Hrm. Three level 8's...I guess things might have to be toned down then, or the PCs need some buffs. I'm planning on running it on Saturday either way :P

ghost_warlock
2010-11-12, 02:43 AM
I ran it for my group up to the encounter with the crowned construct-lich. They didn't really have any difficulty with any of the encounters except the vat oozes, who were mostly an issue because the party stayed bunched together so they were all vulnerable to multiple AoE's.

The Perception DCs to notice traps and such seemed ridiculously low to me, but that seems fairly common with my group. There's always at least one guy who hyper-pumps Perception to the point that there's usually no point for me to include traps or lurker monsters that can be detected that way.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-12, 03:51 AM
So it's for level 9? I just flipped through the first few pages and saw level 7-9 monsters, so I assumed it was lower level. Hrm. Three level 8's...I guess things might have to be toned down then, or the PCs need some buffs.
No, they can do fine. The difference between a level-8 PC and a level-9 PC isn't that big, and anyway there are several points in the tomb where you can have an extended rest.



The Perception DCs to notice traps and such seemed ridiculously low to me, but that seems fairly common with my group. There's always at least one guy who hyper-pumps Perception
This strikes me as a recurring issue in any 4E adventure. Either a group contains somebody with heavy perception, in which case they'll always see everything, or it doesn't, in which case they never see anything.

Duos Greanleef
2010-11-12, 03:54 AM
This strikes me as a recurring issue in any 4E adventure. Either a group contains somebody with heavy perception, in which case they'll always see everything, or it doesn't, in which case they never see anything.

This strikes me as an every-group-game-I've-ever-played problem.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-12, 04:39 AM
This strikes me as an every-group-game-I've-ever-played problem.
Really? Because it should only apply to games that have a "take ten" rule, and to my knowledge that rule only exists in D&D starting from 3E.

Badgerish
2010-11-12, 07:21 AM
In 4ed, when you aren't actively making perception/insight checks, the GM compares DCs to your 'passive perception' which amounts to taking 10.


I have the DM reward adventure but haven't run it. Some parts look dangerous but can be very variable in what the PCs do and how that effects it.

The Gargoyle at the start though... It looks like a great monster, but it's in a terrible room! There will be little/no movement in that fight, just stand and attack. This isn't how I think a gargoyle fight should go.

dsmiles
2010-11-12, 07:24 AM
do you expect the TOH to be as difficult as the first-edition version,

Does such a thing exist? If so, where can I find it?

Akal Saris
2010-11-12, 06:20 PM
In 4ed, when you aren't actively making perception/insight checks, the GM compares DCs to your 'passive perception' which amounts to taking 10.


I have the DM reward adventure but haven't run it. Some parts look dangerous but can be very variable in what the PCs do and how that effects it.

The Gargoyle at the start though... It looks like a great monster, but it's in a terrible room! There will be little/no movement in that fight, just stand and attack. This isn't how I think a gargoyle fight should go.

To Gygax's credit, I believe the original intent is for the gargoyle to fly into the hallway.

When I ran it in 3.5, it was an incredibly difficult encounter for the PCs both times. The first time it was because the hallway is studded with pit traps, and in the heat of combat and trying to out-maneuver the gargoyle, the PCs' only tank walked right into a pit filled with poisoned spikes, and the second time it's because they fled outside, where it could swoop down on them.

Also, thank you to everyone who has contributed feedback so far! I know these PCs and one of them has pumped Perception, so it looks like I might have to be careful there.

hayabusa
2010-11-12, 06:33 PM
I have it, but I haven't had the chance to play or run it yet. I've read through it and it certainly looks interesting, though.

Gorilla2038
2010-11-12, 09:45 PM
Heh...valid question :P As difficult as a normal 4E module, actually. The 3rd edition version was about as tough as any other 3E module, except maybe for the mutant gargoyle and the bleakborn, both of which nearly slaughtered my players.

So it's for level 9? I just flipped through the first few pages and saw level 7-9 monsters, so I assumed it was lower level. Hrm. Three level 8's...I guess things might have to be toned down then, or the PCs need some buffs. I'm planning on running it on Saturday either way :P

TONE DOWN Tomb of horrors?! Sir, you miss the point!

Akal Saris
2010-11-15, 12:32 AM
Hehe, too true, too true sir :P

Well, people were busy this weekend, so instead of running ToH, I played Halo: Reach and watched Star Trek. Next weekend maybe!

Katana_Geldar
2010-11-15, 05:12 AM
Well, I now have a copy and I'm going to look through it. Some of the meanness I loves had been taken out though, shame.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-15, 10:09 AM
My local gaming group has a joke regarding 4E ToH:

"Acererak the demilich devours and consumes your soul for all eternity. Save ends."

(we know it doesn't actually work that way, but it's funnier.)

ghost_warlock
2010-11-15, 12:38 PM
The Gargoyle at the start though... It looks like a great monster, but it's in a terrible room! There will be little/no movement in that fight, just stand and attack. This isn't how I think a gargoyle fight should go.

I was somewhat amused, when I ran the module, that the pieces of broken gargoyle on the floor make attacks against anyone standing on them. One landed a critical hit on the party cleric, which I ruled as a cheap shot to the manpurse. :smallbiggrin:

Jayabalard
2010-11-18, 01:46 AM
Heh...valid question :P As difficult as a normal 4E module, actually. The 3rd edition version was about as tough as any other 3E module, except maybe for the mutant gargoyle and the bleakborn, both of which nearly slaughtered my players.

So it's for level 9? I just flipped through the first few pages and saw level 7-9 monsters, so I assumed it was lower level. Hrm. Three level 8's...I guess things might have to be toned down then, or the PCs need some buffs. I'm planning on running it on Saturday either way :PYou're mistaking it for the tomb of ******** and jetski's ... that's not even the same tomb.