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Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 07:44 PM
Long time visiter of the forums but first time poster!

Okay so in the first campaign I am dming I have now caused my first TPK and am worried that my players might have taken it poorly. Due to the Lieutenant of the BBEG watching them participate in an Arena Competition he was prepared for their usual tricks and they didn't manage to deal a single point of damage or affect the Lieutenant with a spell that mattered. I think they feel that everything they did I completely countered. And I was wondering if the Playground thought I was being to harsh.

Heres the party
17th level Druid: Focuses on Frost spells and casting has the ACF in unearthed arcana were you trade wildshape for monk features. Also has around a 55 touch ac. His animal companion was dead at this point.

17th lvl Binder with around 5 prestige classes and bloodlines: Focuses on summoning creatures. Really hard to kill most of his summons use touch attacks.

17th level: Cleric of Pelor: Uses divine metamagic for twin spells and is cloistered.

(All of them have the Saint Template, I gave the party 2 free lvl adjustments at the beginning)

The Boss: A 19th level Wilder/Thrallherd with a Homebrew Cold version of the Dry Lich Template:

Lieutenant's Thralls: A buff bot cleric
A kinetistic psion

Some background:
All characters (except the cleric actually he hasnt recived his yet), have a powerfull artifact that increases in power the higher level they are. Most of the powers are strong and cover up wholes in character designs or just try to incerease the power of the class. The Druid's increases his animal companions and allows his frost spells to bypass any cold immunity along with a few other affects that didn't come up. The Thrallherd's was that his wild surge had no chance of failure (it was low anyway) and he could bypass mind affecting immunity.
The Lieutenant was originally a player in the campaign but had to leave to go to college. He was originally on the Pc's side but eventually betrayed them to join the BBEG. They have had 2 other encounters with him that both ended pretty poorly. The first with their freezing corpses tossed off a soarwhale into the snow. The second was when they were all disintegrated. (They got better....). Both of these encounters they failed to deal a single point of damage or even get a spell off on him.
The loses were not due to an excess of optimization and actually they are probably more optimized. The first encounter the group used a surprise round and teleported directly in the center of the Thrallherd's massive amount of believers and thralls, then he won initiative and managed to dominate each one of them. The second was a completely unnecessary set up that involved throwing 3 packets of cold substitution fire seeds at him and detonate them, but the Thrallherd was immune to cold at this point.

Now here is the encounter: They were fleeing a city that was just attacked by the BBEG and an army of undead monstrosities. They couldn't teleport out of the city due to a city wide cloister based effect (except it prevents people from fleeing instead of coming in) so they fly out and try to get out of the range of the spell. While flying out of the area they got hit by a disjunction by the Lieutenant's thrall (Disjunction in my campaign dispels all buffs and only suppresses magic items for 1 round instead of destroying them) causing them to fall.
The Binder manages to get a wall of force under them and began to fight. The Lieutenant sends his thralls out on a zombie dragon to fight them as he stays invisibly away. The Psion Thrall deals massive damage and almost kills each one of them but were saved due to one of the binder's spells that reduces you to one hp instead of death. They barely managed to kill them but were running low on spells. Also they noticed that several of their main spells were negated (Greater Spell Immunity), such as the Druid's Frost fel and the Binder's Prismatic ray.

Then the Lieutenant showed up, Immediately the Druid was grappled by an astral construct and was then Ego Whipped to 1 charisma left. Then the rest of the fight was them using spells and either him succeeding on the save, being outright immune to it, or them failing to bypass his spell resistance on almost every spell they cast (they managed to hit him with a maze spell, which he then promptly plane-shifted out of). The binder ends up failing his save on a fully augmented maximized mind thrust and died. and then the Druid blew himself up using the cold substitution fire seeds again. (The boss had a contingency to teleport the packet 5ft behind the Druid's head if he tried to detonate it, the previous encounter he had a contingency similar to it but it involved trying to wind wall it away instead of teleporting it away). After the druids death the Cleric had literally no more spells left that could damage the Lieutenant. The cleric had to leave and we stopped the session there.



Sorry for the long post just wanted to see what the Playground though, was I being to harsh on my players? I personally thought it was fine since the Lieutenant would know the basic tricks of the party and plan accordingly, and the Lieutenant knew he was going to be fighting the PC's so it makes since to use his contingency on the party's ace in the hole (the fire seeds).

Sorry for any grammar mistakes and misspellings.

Katana_Geldar
2010-11-11, 07:47 PM
Sounds to me as if this was a simple case of bad luck. These things happen.

Beelzebub1111
2010-11-11, 07:48 PM
I remember my first TPK. Player's fault, they thought it would be a good idea to charge an Octopus Tree.

Kaun
2010-11-11, 08:36 PM
I remember my first TPK. Player's fault, they thought it would be a good idea to charge an Octopus Tree.

Foolish players, they were one grease spell and 1 fire ball away from having a calamari tree!

kyoryu
2010-11-11, 08:40 PM
Here's a quick question:

What could they have done differently to avoid the TPK?

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 08:53 PM
Here's a quick question:

What could they have done differently to avoid the TPK?

Really they could have done near anything. The binder can summon a creature that casts as a 12th level wizard and his artifact bonus allows him to choose the creatures spell list as he wants instead of using what they normally have. So he has access to any single wizard/sorcerer spell 6th lvl or lower and has 5 of these summons at a time.
The druid probably should have tried to use actual damage spells instead of trying to one shot the Thrallherd.
Im not sure what the cleric's spell list was but he was somewhat screwed because he had mostly spells prepared that were good agianst living creatures, destruction, etc. Also dispelling the Thrallherds buffs would have helped.

Mostly though after seeing that his thralls were immune to most of their basic tricks they should have tried to do something different.

Elfstone
2010-11-11, 09:07 PM
Then its time to teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe hinting at it OOC is a good idea. If they havn't caught on now then its time to give them a little push. I assume they have been playing this campaign for a while and started playing D&D in this campaign?

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 09:13 PM
Then its time to teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe hinting at it OOC is a good idea. If they haven't caught on now then its time to give them a little push. I assume they have been playing this campaign for a while and started playing D&D in this campaign?

Well I did mention several times that the Thrallherd was watching them, they saw his commoner believers (they all look alike, don't ask) and one literally walked up to them said "I See You" and slit his own throat. Also I made it pretty clear that he was going to be attacking them at some point.

Also this is my 2nd campaign i played in one as a player before. But I played Neverwinter Nights so I have a very good grasp on the rules. I am easily the party's optimizer.

ffone
2010-11-11, 09:13 PM
Ooh, I'm curious, how did your Druid get the AC of 55?

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 09:18 PM
Ooh, I'm curious, how did your Druid get the AC of 55?

Massive amounts of buffs. Owls insight gives really high wisdom bonus as insight + 6 item and 18 wisdom plus saint which gives +4. The ACF i mentioned gives wisdom to ac and then the Saint template gives it to him again. So he gets double his really high wisdom to ac as insight, (I ruled that they stack simply because I forced him into it because I personally don' t like wildshape). Also a ring of deflection + 4 i think as well.

Elfstone
2010-11-11, 09:20 PM
Nono, you missunderstand me. I want to know how many games they have played in. You obviously have a good understanding of the rules as shown by the first post you made.

I understand that you have hinted to them but they seem to not be getting it. Maybe take one of them aside before hand and telling him that the party needs to change its tactics?

And I only asked because if they stick to the same old same old then they are just comfortable with it or have not been exposed to many other options or ideas.

Callista
2010-11-11, 09:27 PM
What are the challenge ratings and abilities of the people they were fighting? Are the PCs optimized?

The thing I noticed first was that you are a first-time DM running a high-level game. High levels are tougher to DM than low levels, and a great deal more unpredictable.

Should've been a tough encounter. The Thrallherd is 19th level plus Lich (EL 21), and at least one of his thralls is level 17 if he can cast Disjunction. That's in the "overpowering" category even if you don't count the thralls, versus a level 17 three-person party (rather than a four-person party). So yeah, this is the kind of thing you do for the BBEG fight, where you expect someone will be killed and hope it isn't a TPK. I guess you were counting the Saint template for its level adjustment, making them a 19th level party... but at this level it's really not going to make that much of a difference. But then, I'd probably use an encounter of this power level at least occasionally, so I don't think you picked a truly impossible encounter for them.

At level 17, most parties should have set up some kind of failsafe against TPK; the last time we played in a party of that level I had a contingency Message set to be sent to a high-level cleric ally. 17th level PCs are probably either world-famous or spending a great deal of effort NOT to become world-famous; they should have those things in place. In this case of course the contingency would have been dispelled; but you could even put up an effect that would stop if dispelled, also notifying your allies. A permanency'd Status spell could do it (if your DM ruled that Permanency could affect Status); if the Status spell ceases to function, the person on the other end knows you're either dead or have been attacked by someone capable of dispelling it, and in either case you're in trouble.

But maybe that was part of the problem--you say you're a new DM, so maybe they're 17th level PCs who haven't yet made any allies because it's a new campaign. They're basically existing in a vacuum.

ffone
2010-11-11, 09:28 PM
Massive amounts of buffs. Owls insight gives really high wisdom bonus as insight + 6 item and 18 wisdom plus saint which gives +4. The ACF i mentioned gives wisdom to ac and then the Saint template gives it to him again. So he gets double his really high wisdom to ac as insight, (I ruled that they stack simply because I forced him into it because I personally don' t like wildshape). Also a ring of deflection + 4 i think as well.

lol, I like the ring on the end there. So it's a very SAD druid....

And barkskin, I assume, for +5 natural armor.

Where's the ACF from? Sounds like a fun way to use some of the monk abilities.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 09:30 PM
Nono, you missunderstand me. I want to know how many games they have played in. You obviously have a good understanding of the rules as shown by the first post you made.

I understand that you have hinted to them but they seem to not be getting it. Maybe take one of them aside before hand and telling him that the party needs to change its tactics?

And I only asked because if they stick to the same old same old then they are just comfortable with it or have not been exposed to many other options or ideas.

Oh sorry I misunderstood the original question. We have been doing this campaign for 9 sessions. Each one lasting about 5-6 hours.

I told them after the TPK that they should probably have more than one strategy that they do every encounter, especially if the person they are fighting scrys on them constantly.

And they do try different stuff out of combat a lot. They will look through the entire spell compendium to find a spell to solve an encounter, its only in combat do they try to stick to one thing over and over again.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 09:32 PM
lol, I like the ring on the end there. So it's a very SAD druid....

And barkskin, I assume, for +5 natural armor.

Where's the ACF from? Sounds like a fun way to use some of the monk abilities.

Ya barkskin is an awesome AC buff.

Here is the link to the ACF
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid




Originally Posted by Callista
What are the challenge ratings and abilities of the people they were fighting? Are the PCs optimized?

The thing I noticed first was that you are a first-time DM running a high-level game. High levels are tougher to DM than low levels, and a great deal more unpredictable.

Should've been a tough encounter. The Thrallherd is 19th level plus Lich (EL 21), and at least one of his thralls is level 17 if he can cast Disjunction. That's in the "overpowering" category even if you don't count the thralls, versus a level 17 three-person party (rather than a four-person party). So yeah, this is the kind of thing you do for the BBEG fight, where you expect someone will be killed and hope it isn't a TPK. I guess you were counting the Saint template for its level adjustment, making them a 19th level party... but at this level it's really not going to make that much of a difference. But then, I'd probably use an encounter of this power level at least occasionally, so I don't think you picked a truly impossible encounter for them.

At level 17, most parties should have set up some kind of failsafe against TPK; the last time we played in a party of that level I had a contingency Message set to be sent to a high-level cleric ally. 17th level PCs are probably either world-famous or spending a great deal of effort NOT to become world-famous; they should have those things in place. In this case of course the contingency would have been dispelled; but you could even put up an effect that would stop if dispelled, also notifying your allies. A permanency'd Status spell could do it (if your DM ruled that Permanency could affect Status); if the Status spell ceases to function, the person on the other end knows you're either dead or have been attacked by someone capable of dispelling it, and in either case you're in trouble.

But maybe that was part of the problem--you say you're a new DM, so maybe they're 17th level PCs who haven't yet made any allies because it's a new campaign. They're basically existing in a vacuum.

Yes the PC's are decently optimized. Druid is can deal very nice damage and has ridiculously high ac and will save. Binder can't die unless one shot, and Cleric is using divine metamagic + nightstick combo.

I started the campaign at lvl 8 actually simply because thats when I joined my first campaign as a player so I thought it would be the easiest to use.

The Encounter was supposed to be a incredibly tough one. And yes i was counting the saint template since it really gives some incredibly powerful features (+ 2 to all save dcs, + 4 to all saves, + 4 to ac, + Wis to ac, immunity to cold, electricity, and acid and fast healing). Also I thought it would be easier since I sent the thralls and the Thrallherd at them separately.

And actually they are allied with one epic level psion and one epic level cleric. The Cleric has already resurrected them once when they were disintegrated by this same person. The only problem is the BBEG is basically an evil undead overlord who wants to raise them into undeath so the very instant they die the Thrallherd teleports to him and he animates them. They couldn't come to there aid because the BBEG conjured the anti teleport field over the city.

None of them can actually cast contingency and they always expected one of them to be able to flee... Both the druid and the Binder were taken out from max to 0 and the cleric doesn't prepare flee spells.

Elfstone
2010-11-11, 10:12 PM
He better prepare them now. And can the cleric/psion not come along and give a few hints on what they could do better on?

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 10:16 PM
He better prepare them now. And can the cleric/psion not come along and give a few hints on what they could do better on?

I am not sure I understand what you are asking. If you are saying why doesn't the Psion/Cleric help them out it's mainly because I don't want to have a DMPC overshadow them. Also the Psion is the leader of an entire kingdom so he wouldn't have much free time. Though it is a good point and I might have one of them give them advice if I deem it necessary.

Boci
2010-11-11, 10:28 PM
A +6 item and owl's wisdom won't stackby default, since they are both enhancement bonuses.

Demidos
2010-11-11, 10:28 PM
(as the frost druid referenced in this post)
Might I point out that the BBEG's lieutenant had over 1000 health (with buffs) and about 400 (without), and my top damage-dealing spells were all negated by the guy's spell immunity. Also (not mentioned) is that we had already fought a combat with an arena boss (who was an utter tank), and with THE BBEG (who sort of "disjuncted", then ignored us while we wasted spells on him for a couple rounds, then tp'ed away), which drained a lot of spells by themselves. An epic level guy on our side cast a spell which restored 6 spells (of any level), but we were totally debuffed as compared to the other team.

@boci It was owl's insight (gives 1/2 caster level to wisdom, lasts 1 hour)

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 10:37 PM
(as the frost druid referenced in this post)
Might I point out that the BBEG's lieutenant had over 1000 health (with buffs) and about 400 (without), and my top damage-dealing spells were all negated by the guy's spell immunity. Also (not mentioned) is that we had already fought a combat with an arena boss (who was an utter tank), and with THE BBEG (who sort of "disjuncted", then ignored us while we wasted spells on him for a couple rounds, then tp'ed away), which drained a lot of spells by themselves. An epic level guy on our side cast a spell which restored 6 spells (of any level), but we were totally debuffed as compared to the other team.

@boci It was owl's insight (gives 1/2 caster level to wisdom, lasts 1 hour)

Hey :smallsmile:

Clearing things up, the boss wasn't immune to your damage spells he has immune to your save or dies, Frostfel and Baleful Polymorph. Also he didn't have 1k health he had 400 with 100 from vigor and he had share pain active with his psicrystal (wasn't near the battle) And you all used a total of 2 spells on the BBEG.... two frost fels.... which wouldn't have helped at all

Other than that I completely agree with this post, You guys were running low on spells, though the cleric was at full and the binder has unlimited powers a day so he and the cleric were fine. So really you running low on spells.
:smallbiggrin:

Demidos
2010-11-11, 10:52 PM
Hey :smallsmile:

Clearing things up, the boss wasn't immune to your damage spells he has immune to your save or dies, Frostfel and Baleful Polymorph. Also he didn't have 1k health he had 400 with 100 from vigor and he had share pain active with his psicrystal (wasn't near the battle) And you all used a total of 2 spells on the BBEG.... two frost fels.... which wouldn't have helped at all

Other than that I completely agree with this post, You guys were running low on spells, though the cleric was at full and the binder has unlimited powers a day so he and the cleric were fine. So really you running low on spells.
:smallbiggrin:

Yeahhhh:smallbiggrin:

Edit: effective 1k health

But my point was, that I had no other spells that could deal such large scale damage on such short notice. Especially considering I was incapacated for at least half the battle. So even if I had cast damage spells only I would still have dealt around 250, tops.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 11:01 PM
Yeahhhh:smallbiggrin:

Edit: effective 1k health

But my point was, that I had no other spells that could deal such large scale damage on such short notice. Especially considering I was incapacated for at least half the battle. So even if I had cast damage spells only I would still have dealt around 250, tops.


Well you weren't supposed to be able to solo the boss there were two other players to help you out. Also Greater Dispel would have worked too so you could remove his buffs.

Demidos
2010-11-11, 11:10 PM
Well you weren't supposed to be able to solo the boss there were two other players to help you out. Also Greater Dispel would have worked too so you could remove his buffs.

Leaving him at 400 health. Great. :smallmad:

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 11:14 PM
Leaving him at 400 health. Great. :smallmad:

You still had several damage spells and had the cleric not botched both of his spell resistance checks for sunburst that would have been a lot of damage as well. Also a boss that has no allies needs high health or he just gets gang stabbed by the entire party.

BridgeCity
2010-11-11, 11:30 PM
Personally, I would have toned the fight down a bit. Not made it a sure victory, but from what it looks like it was a pretty sure defeat.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 11:37 PM
Personally, I would have toned the fight down a bit. Not made it a sure victory, but from what it looks like it was a pretty sure defeat.

Ya I noticed it was a tad tough for them but I still can't figure out what exactly was tough about it. The boss did less dpr than all three of them. The main thing was that the prepared casters prepared mostly one trick for the entire battle, such as the druid preparing only frostfel for 8th level spells, the cleric preparing mostly destruction type effects.

BridgeCity
2010-11-11, 11:41 PM
Ya I noticed it was a tad tough for them but I still can't figure out what exactly was tough about it. The boss did less dpr than all three of them. The main thing was that the prepared casters prepared mostly one trick for the entire battle, such as the druid preparing only frostfel for 8th level spells, the cleric preparing mostly destruction type effects.

Well, basically you put them up against an encounter that was too high for their party. I know there are lots of problems with CR ratings, but they are still a decent guide in this case. Four lvl 17s would find a CR 19 encounter, which is technically what your boss is, tough, and there are only three level 17s. On top of that, the level 19 CR guy has two minions backing him up, which further increases the difficulty of the encounter.

Basically, from what I can see, you just overshot the difficulty factor and built the encounter a bit too high for them, and that was made worse by some rotten luck on their part.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-11, 11:46 PM
Well, basically you put them up against an encounter that was too high for their party. I know there are lots of problems with CR ratings, but they are still a decent guide in this case. Four lvl 17s would find a CR 19 encounter, which is technically what your boss is, tough, and there are only three level 17s. On top of that, the level 19 CR guy has two minions backing him up, which further increases the difficulty of the encounter.

Basically, from what I can see, you just overshot the difficulty factor and built the encounter a bit too high for them, and that was made worse by some rotten luck on their part.

I don't think it was too high though. The cr table says that it was a "Very Difficult" encounter, which to me seems right for a boss fight. Also paired with the fact that they all optimized more than this boss I wasn't sure where exactly it went wrong.

Do you have any idea on what I made too strong about him so I could tone down any other boss?

BridgeCity
2010-11-11, 11:55 PM
I don't think it was too high though. The cr table says that it was a "Very Difficult" encounter, which to me seems right for a boss fight. Also paired with the fact that they all optimized more than this boss I wasn't sure where exactly it went wrong.

Do you have any idea on what I made too strong about him so I could tone down any other boss?

Sorry if I'm wrong here but this sounds like it was at the end of a day of adventuring and the party had already been using resources? Very difficult encounters are supposed to be hard, but they are usually encountered (at least in my experience) when the party has not been too taxed just yet.

The way we tend to run 'very difficult' encounters in my gaming group is that they are only like the second encounter for the day, or even the only encounter for the day, so it is a big throw-everything-you-have-at-the-boss kind of fight. It works well for us because the PCs still have to be smart in order to survive, and the boss gets to be stupidly powerfull as they should be, but the party are not so hindered in that defeat is 99% sure.

As for toning that particular encounter down I'm not much help. I don't know the thrallherd rules very well, but I gather that it would break the game a little, similar to how some cohorts with leadership can. If I was designing this encounter, I would have had the boss and the cohorts/thralls at lower levels to balance out the fact there are three of them in place of one without the CR increasing to compensate.

I'm sure other people here will be able to help more on that front though.

Edit: Also, the fact that he had had a chance to study the team tactics and prepare ahead of time ways to deal with them increases the difficulty as well. I like the idea you went with, I just think you charged up the difficulty too far by mistake.

Callista
2010-11-12, 12:01 AM
It's only "very difficult" if you count in the Saint template; and while, as you said, it's a powerful template, it does tend to become somewhat more insignificant as characters gain levels. At level 17, it's not at all equivalent to gaining two more levels of cleric or druid.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-12, 12:09 AM
Sorry if I'm wrong here but this sounds like it was at the end of a day of adventuring and the party had already been using resources? Very difficult encounters are supposed to be hard, but they are usually encountered (at least in my experience) when the party has not been too taxed just yet.

The way we tend to run 'very difficult' encounters in my gaming group is that they are only like the second encounter for the day, or even the only encounter for the day, so it is a big throw-everything-you-have-at-the-boss kind of fight. It works well for us because the PCs still have to be smart in order to survive, and the boss gets to be stupidly powerfull as they should be, but the party are not so hindered in that defeat is 99% sure.

As for toning that particular encounter down I'm not much help. I don't know the thrallherd rules very well, but I gather that it would break the game a little, similar to how some cohorts with leadership can. If I was designing this encounter, I would have had the boss and the cohorts/thralls at lower levels to balance out the fact there are three of them in place of one without the CR increasing to compensate.

I'm sure other people here will be able to help more on that front though.

Edit: Also, the fact that he had had a chance to study the team tactics and prepare ahead of time ways to deal with them increases the difficulty as well. I like the idea you went with, I just think you charged up the difficulty too far by mistake.


First off thank you for the help.


There was one encounter before this one. Essentially they had just finished a arena tournament, they had rested for the night to fight the "Owner of the Arena". So that was the encounter Diemdos was mentioning. For thrallherd he gets two thralls, one at 17th level the other at 16th level I figured I would balance that out by having one not really attack at all (Mostly a buffer), while the other didnt have much defense.

I agree with the studying tactics, using what Elfstone I belive said eairlier I will have some of their allies place some scry protection on them so their enemies can't do that :smallwink:.



It's only "very difficult" if you count in the Saint template; and while, as you said, it's a powerful template, it does tend to become somewhat more insignificant as characters gain levels. At level 17, it's not at all equivalent to gaining two more levels of cleric or druid.


I am somewhat confused by this. The Boss was 19th level with a + 2 cr increase from the variant dry lich while the party was 17th level with +2 ecl increase from saint. If you don't count the saint template for an ecl increase why should the dry lich increase the CR?

jguy
2010-11-12, 12:16 AM
I think the druid or cleric should start preparing Summon Elemental Monolith. It is a wonderful spell for top tier since the monster is damn powerful in its element. That fight would have gone differently if the flying thrallherd was caught in an epic hurricane. I ended a CR 20 fight simply by summoning one and picking up every person in the room

BridgeCity
2010-11-12, 12:19 AM
First off thank you for the help.

My pleasure.


There was one encounter before this one. Essentially they had just finished a arena tournament, they had rested for the night to fight the "Owner of the Arena". So that was the encounter Diemdos was mentioning. For thrallherd he gets two thralls, one at 17th level the other at 16th level I figured I would balance that out by having one not really attack at all (Mostly a buffer), while the other didnt have much defense.

Doesn't sound like your PCs were too taxed then, but the CR of the encounter was still incredibly high. I think you may be underestimating the power of buffs and how game changing they can be. While that one thrall wasn't casting offensive spells, he was still very much affecting the battle.


I agree with the studying tactics, using what Elfstone I belive said eairlier I will have some of their allies place some scry protection on them so their enemies can't do that :smallwink:.

Yeah, thats a good way of dealing with that :smallsmile:


I am somewhat confused by this. The Boss was 19th level with a + 2 cr increase from the variant dry lich while the party was 17th level with +2 ecl increase from saint. If you don't count the saint template for an ecl increase why should the dry lich increase the CR?

To be honest, I only know what I've been told here, never having been in a game with the saint template. The basic theory is that at later levels the abilities being granted by saint stop being so powerfull, and so the template begins to not be worth adding 2 to the parties CR level. The lich, however, does not suffer from this, the powers granted by the template remianing strong and important, and so remains constantly at plus 2.

So in basic terms we have a CR 19 guy, who then adds two thralls each at about CR 16/17, and then adds another 2 to the CR for being a lich. That is one hefty fight, well beyond 'very difficult' in my mind. And that is with a 4 person party in mind, when your PCs were only three.

Based on the CR table, just the level 19 guy alone, without the thralls and the template should have been a difficult fight. So yeah, as I said I really like your concept here, but in order to not over power it too much you would need to drop the levels of the bad guys involved. Maybe bring the boss to level 16 or 17, making him a normal encounter, and then adding all the CR increasing stuff to him.

lost_my_NHL
2010-11-12, 12:21 AM
Or if you don't want to weaken the boss's powers level, have him or cohorts enter the fight as if they've been fighting and with appropriately less hp or spells.

Also, the CR analysis assumes that the game mechanics itself are balanced at ~epic levels. I have never played a campaign that high, and certainly never played with some of the mechanics you are using (including the house ruled stuff). That may also be an issue.

It also might be caused by the difference between your boss knowing that he will fight the PCs and you knowing that he will face the PCs. Even if the boss knows the PCs are a threat, does he view them as a significant threat, or even the threat to his plans? Say he does; he still has to organize and run his big evil scheme, which most likely takes the vast majority of his time and effort. Even if he knows the PCs are powerful and that he would fight them, he may not know that he will fight them that day (and have appropriate spells prepared), he may not know where there abilities come from (arcane/divine, artifacts or class skills, charisma-based or wisdom-based, etc.). As a first-time DM, you may not be aware how much your knowledge of the campaign bleeds into how much your NPCs know about the campaign.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-12, 12:54 AM
My pleasure.



Doesn't sound like your PCs were too taxed then, but the CR of the encounter was still incredibly high. I think you may be underestimating the power of buffs and how game changing they can be. While that one thrall wasn't casting offensive spells, he was still very much affecting the battle.



Yeah, thats a good way of dealing with that :smallsmile:



To be honest, I only know what I've been told here, never having been in a game with the saint template. The basic theory is that at later levels the abilities being granted by saint stop being so powerfull, and so the template begins to not be worth adding 2 to the parties CR level. The lich, however, does not suffer from this, the powers granted by the template remianing strong and important, and so remains constantly at plus 2.

So in basic terms we have a CR 19 guy, who then adds two thralls each at about CR 16/17, and then adds another 2 to the CR for being a lich. That is one hefty fight, well beyond 'very difficult' in my mind. And that is with a 4 person party in mind, when your PCs were only three.

Based on the CR table, just the level 19 guy alone, without the thralls and the template should have been a difficult fight. So yeah, as I said I really like your concept here, but in order to not over power it too much you would need to drop the levels of the bad guys involved. Maybe bring the boss to level 16 or 17, making him a normal encounter, and then adding all the CR increasing stuff to him.

I was thinking about lowering the bosses' lvl but that in turn lowers the minions. 1 effective 15 wilder + 1 16th lvl psion and 1 15 lvl cleric buffer wouldn't really threaten the party considering they have all three party members higher level....

Ya I was just wondering what made the Lich Template so much better than the saint? Is it the CHA to HP because thats the only thing I could really see that would be that much of a difference.



Or if you don't want to weaken the boss's powers level, have him or cohorts enter the fight as if they've been fighting and with appropriately less hp or spells.

Also, the CR analysis assumes that the game mechanics itself are balanced at ~epic levels. I have never played a campaign that high, and certainly never played with some of the mechanics you are using (including the house ruled stuff). That may also be an issue.

It also might be caused by the difference between your boss knowing that he will fight the PCs and you knowing that he will face the PCs. Even if the boss knows the PCs are a threat, does he view them as a significant threat, or even the threat to his plans? Say he does; he still has to organize and run his big evil scheme, which most likely takes the vast majority of his time and effort. Even if he knows the PCs are powerful and that he would fight them, he may not know that he will fight them that day (and have appropriate spells prepared), he may not know where there abilities come from (arcane/divine, artifacts or class skills, charisma-based or wisdom-based, etc.). As a first-time DM, you may not be aware how much your knowledge of the campaign bleeds into how much your NPCs know about the campaign.

The BBEG runs all the actual plotting of the schemes, the boss they fought was a lieutenant that was a former member of the party who has pretty much free reign in what he does. Also yes the party is essentially a huge aspect of the campaign. The artifacts I mentioned are the crux of most of the campaign and two factions are scrambling to get them the BBEG and the Leutiniet they fought vs the Faction aligned with the Party, Both the Psion and Cleric also have one. As well IC they knew that the Thrallherd was watching them, I expected some kind of protection from scry to be put up but they didn't do that... so I just let him watch their arena matches and play him accordingly

Also they were aware OOC that they were going to fight this character as well as they knew every single one of its abilities since they had adventured with him for around 6 levels.



I think the druid or cleric should start preparing Summon Elemental Monolith. It is a wonderful spell for top tier since the monster is damn powerful in its element. That fight would have gone differently if the flying thrallherd was caught in an epic hurricane. I ended a CR 20 fight simply by summoning one and picking up every person in the room


Thank you I will recommend that to one, he playing a druid/sorcerer for his new character.

BridgeCity
2010-11-12, 01:03 AM
I was thinking about lowering the bosses' lvl but that in turn lowers the minions. 1 effective 15 wilder + 1 16th lvl psion and 1 15 lvl cleric buffer wouldn't really threaten the party considering they have all three party members higher level....

I'd say just don't lower them that much then. Keep the main guy as a level 18, that would make his minions like 17 right? An 18 and two 17s are a decent challange for three 17 PCs, and then you add in the lich and the pre-planning and you get a nice tough battle.


Ya I was just wondering what made the Lich Template so much better than the saint? Is it the CHA to HP because thats the only thing I could really see that would be that much of a difference.

I'll have to let someone else answer this I'm sorry, as I said I'm not very familiar with saint so I don't really know why its not as good.

But don't take all this to mean you made a bad encounter :smallsmile: It is pretty clear that there were options for the PCs, they just had really bad luck when it came to rolls and whatnot. It was a mixture of both elements that lead to a TPK here.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-12, 01:11 AM
I'd say just don't lower them that much then. Keep the main guy as a level 18, that would make his minions like 17 right? An 18 and two 17s are a decent challange for three 17 PCs, and then you add in the lich and the pre-planning and you get a nice tough battle.



I'll have to let someone else answer this I'm sorry, as I said I'm not very familiar with saint so I don't really know why its not as good.

But don't take all this to mean you made a bad encounter :smallsmile: It is pretty clear that there were options for the PCs, they just had really bad luck when it came to rolls and whatnot. It was a mixture of both elements that lead to a TPK here.


Ya that would have been a better idea probably. Anyway thanks for the help, Their new characters are going to essentially see this guy finish off their current players and immediately engage him. Also I let get to level 18 since it wouldn't make sense for the boss to suddenly lose powers. That way he doesn't have such a high level difference between them. Also since this guy will come back more than likely (dry liches have 5 Phylacteries) I probably just wont advance his level anymore that way when the PC's fight him again they will hopefully be much stronger than him and it will be an easier fight, then the PC's will hopefully feel like they actually managed to overcome their old party member in strength. :smallbiggrin:

Though once again thanks for everyone who helped in this thread to help me make the next encounter better :smallsmile:.

BridgeCity
2010-11-12, 01:51 AM
Ya that would have been a better idea probably. Anyway thanks for the help, Their new characters are going to essentially see this guy finish off their current players and immediately engage him. Also I let get to level 18 since it wouldn't make sense for the boss to suddenly lose powers. That way he doesn't have such a high level difference between them. Also since this guy will come back more than likely (dry liches have 5 Phylacteries) I probably just wont advance his level anymore that way when the PC's fight him again they will hopefully be much stronger than him and it will be an easier fight, then the PC's will hopefully feel like they actually managed to overcome their old party member in strength. :smallbiggrin:

Though once again thanks for everyone who helped in this thread to help me make the next encounter better :smallsmile:.

That sounds like a really good way to deal with a TPK. I'd be happy with that outcome if I was a PC in the game. Good luck man, hope the rest of the campaign goes really well for you.

Road_Runner
2010-11-12, 02:06 AM
(I am the binder referenced in this thread)


Really they could have done near anything. The binder can summon a creature that casts as a 12th level wizard and his artifact bonus allows him to choose the creatures spell list as he wants instead of using what they normally have. So he has access to any single wizard/sorcerer spell 6th lvl or lower and has 5 of these summons at a time.


Ouch. Almost anything? Seriously try finding a decent spell that works in this battle. Elemental damage is near useless, blasting in general sucks (magic-missiling down 1000 EHP isn't going to work), for anything that requires a save you can just forget it (even every single one of my DC 35/36 binder abilities which I casted almost every round all failed (partly due to bad luck)-- and the wizard DCs were max 26),--not to mention the spell resistance and spell turning they had, Greater Dispel Magics failed miserably (could only remove 2 buffs of lower caster level off his cohorts, let alone the boss himself) which leaves me maybe some ranged touch spells or save-spamming, but apparently the guy had touch AC of over 40, so my touch spells were useless (even though I had the foresight of taking guiding light are quickened targeting ray).
I did take advantage of the huge buffing power of having access to all 1-6 level spells (indominatability, stat buffs, heroism, all energy immunities, incorporal touch armor, etc, etc,) but this was all rendered useless by mordenkainen's disjunction.



Overall I think the battle was fun though, 1 TPK out of 10+ encounters isn't bad. :smallsmile:

Personally I blame the cleric :smallbiggrin: I think if he had picked spells a bit more carefully it would have been a really good challenge level.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-12, 03:13 AM
(I am the binder referenced in this thread)



Ouch. Almost anything? Seriously try finding a decent spell that works in this battle. Elemental damage is near useless, blasting in general sucks (magic-missiling down 1000 EHP isn't going to work), for anything that requires a save you can just forget it (even every single one of my DC 35/36 binder abilities which I casted almost every round all failed (partly due to bad luck)-- and the wizard DCs were max 26),--not to mention the spell resistance and spell turning they had, Greater Dispel Magics failed miserably (could only remove 2 buffs of lower caster level off his cohorts, let alone the boss himself) which leaves me maybe some ranged touch spells or save-spamming, but apparently the guy had touch AC of over 40, so my touch spells were useless (even though I had the foresight of taking guiding light are quickened targeting ray).
I did take advantage of the huge buffing power of having access to all 1-6 level spells (indominatability, stat buffs, heroism, all energy immunities, incorporal touch armor, etc, etc,) but this was all rendered useless by mordenkainen's disjunction.



Overall I think the battle was fun though, 1 TPK out of 10+ encounters isn't bad. :smallsmile:

Personally I blame the cleric :smallbiggrin: I think if he had picked spells a bit more carefully it would have been a really good challenge level.


Actually for the dispel check I said Some of the buffs were lower caster level the ones with lower caster level were cast by the WILDER not the thralls, the thrall himself had i think the bead of karma that gives + 4 to caster level.

If you dispelled his buffs or at least 2 then his touch as goes from 40 to 36 which your main guy can 95% chance with a true strike then hit with targeting ray.

Also for spells from core: Dimensional Lock: That stops teleporting
Acid fog: Only 2d6 per round but from 5 people thats 10d6 and he can move 5ft each round and can teleport out of hit. Cast that for the next round then cast black tentacles, he has no grapple modifier thats decent... Then simply back around 200ish ft away from him, all his powers he was affecting you with are close ranged and the one that is long he needs to pinpoint you first (telekinetic thrust). So you have now just soloed him :P thats with all core except targeting ray which you used.


Also on the save thing >.> ya he rolled freakishly high on his saves and the ones he didn't he had a ring of greater blinking sooo ya...

Kaww
2010-11-12, 04:17 AM
First of cleric has a lvl 6 spell (cometfall C Divine) that does 20d6 dmg (avg 70). No SR, just reflex for 1/2. If your cleric uses C Champion turn dmg variant and has quicken turning this encounter is trivial for your party. If you allow ALL books your party is more than a match for this encounter even without cleric doing his 1kD6 turn dmg. You have a party that should be a match (although it's a three man show) for much tougher encounters.

In my opinion you did nothing wrong. When I want tough encounters for optimized parties I give them CR +5, and they pull through without me fudging the dice...

That's just my 2c.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-12, 10:43 AM
First of cleric has a lvl 6 spell (cometfall C Divine) that does 20d6 dmg (avg 70). No SR, just reflex for 1/2. If your cleric uses C Champion turn dmg variant and has quicken turning this encounter is trivial for your party. If you allow ALL books your party is more than a match for this encounter even without cleric doing his 1kD6 turn dmg. You have a party that should be a match (although it's a three man show) for much tougher encounters.

In my opinion you did nothing wrong. When I want tough encounters for optimized parties I give them CR +5, and they pull through without me fudging the dice...

That's just my 2c.

I allow all books except dragon magazine and actually what is odd is that the cleric has used comet fall numerous times and usually prepares it at least 3 times. I will probably ask him what he prepared his 6th lvl spells as.

Ya I think it was mostly them choosing poor spell choices rly and then the Binder not taking advantage of his unlimited spell capability.

Warlawk
2010-11-12, 12:19 PM
Ok, a couple things I wanted to comment on here.

Saint: This is a nice template for sure. However, the two biggest things I see it providing are +4 saves (nice) and +2 save DCs (a HUGE benefit). However, save DCs are most important on save or suck/save or die spells. Many of which your BBEG was immune to anyways due to his own defenses/template. The immunities are nice, but if your BBEG knows about them and plans accordingly then you really can't even consider them because they are useless. Just an observation in regards to the potential CR of the encounter.

Optimization: It sounds to me just from the things said in this thread that your PCs are not optimized per se. They have some powerful items and they have chosen powerful classes. If their characters were optimized, it sounds like the optimization was done for them (either in the sense of someone dictating a build or taking it from online) and they did not do the optimization themselves. More importantly they did not understand the optimization. 3 straight casters (I'll admit I'm not directly familiar with the binder) at that level of play should have made that encounter their bitch. Having an optimized character, and understanding an optimized character are two very different things and will lead to vastly different play experiences even with the same build. (Please don't take this one the wrong way, this is not intended to be a statement that optimization is good or bad, and not having a deep understanding of optimized is not a flaw in the player by any means. I actually prefer playing in unoptimized games).

Optimization Part2: Now, earlier in the thread you stated "I am easily the party's optimizer." As a first time DM with only one previous games experience as a player, and the party optimizer, this presents a problem. (This is not intended as any sort of attack of flame, not calling you a noob or anything of the sort). It means that while you understand the rules, you have little practical experience with them in live play. This can be a very important distinction. My general advice to anyone in this situation would be to completely avoid creating custom BBEG. Use creatures from the various monster lists. This avoids a situation where you build something from scratch that is optimized in a way the party has a very hard time dealing with. The balance between a monster and a BBEG built using PC class rules can be a very wide thing. It can be tough to really get a feel for this, especially as a first time DM, doubly so as someone with very little play experience. Again, not trying to insult or attack you, just saying that lack of experience combined with optimization knowledge can cause a LOT of problems.

Party Mistakes: This has been touched on a bit already, and I'm not going to rehash the points already brought up. Firstly using Save or die/save or suck spells against a BBEG is always questionable since they usually have protection from just such effects otherwise the encounter would be straight up trivial. Now, from what has been said it sounds like they knew this fight was coming. The fact that a Cleric of Pelor was having difficulty with an undead, and had a spell list full of things like Destruction and other spells that would not effect an undead BBEG is just straight up mind boggling to me. Honestly, the TPK rests heavily on his shoulders IMO. From the sound of things all the players have a bit of responsibility relying far far too heavily on Save vs "Effect" that are clearly not going to work here, and doubly so for a cleric of pelor. It sounds like they had some bad luck in regards to rolls, which hurt them, but it also sounds like they made some staggeringly bad choices.

Nitpick: Now we come to the unfortunate part where I pick at something. First off, if this BBEG is some sort of cold based lich thing with immunity to cold (See my earlier bit about the party making BAD choices in spell preparation and such) I have to question the contingency. The BBEG has been studying the PCs and knows the druid will use cold-sub fire seed bombs on him, however he is immune to the cold damage. Using a contingency for that considering all the other things the PCs can bring to bear just screams meta game to me. That is the thought process of a throwaway villain trying to screw the PCs, not an highly intelligent person trying to stay alive in an EXTREMELY dangerous situation. You don't use that potent of a defense for something that you are immune to anyways. (Just a nitpick on my part here I guess, it just felt like a very metagame choice designed to screw the player).

Nitpick Part2: If the druid has the saint template he is immune to cold damage. How exactly did he kill himself with cold-sub fireseeds? The fight may have gone very differently if the druid hadn't somehow killed himself with damage that he should be immune to.

Just my take on things, longer than I intended it to be I suppose. Everything is intended to help, and not as an attack on you or your players. Everyone stumbles as both a player and a DM, it's part of learning and growing. The important thing is to learn from it and use that to become a better player/dm.

Silva Stormrage
2010-11-12, 02:09 PM
Ok, a couple things I wanted to comment on here.

Saint: This is a nice template for sure. However, the two biggest things I see it providing are +4 saves (nice) and +2 save DCs (a HUGE benefit). However, save DCs are most important on save or suck/save or die spells. Many of which your BBEG was immune to anyways due to his own defenses/template. The immunities are nice, but if your BBEG knows about them and plans accordingly then you really can't even consider them because they are useless. Just an observation in regards to the potential CR of the encounter.

Optimization: It sounds to me just from the things said in this thread that your PCs are not optimized per se. They have some powerful items and they have chosen powerful classes. If their characters were optimized, it sounds like the optimization was done for them (either in the sense of someone dictating a build or taking it from online) and they did not do the optimization themselves. More importantly they did not understand the optimization. 3 straight casters (I'll admit I'm not directly familiar with the binder) at that level of play should have made that encounter their bitch. Having an optimized character, and understanding an optimized character are two very different things and will lead to vastly different play experiences even with the same build. (Please don't take this one the wrong way, this is not intended to be a statement that optimization is good or bad, and not having a deep understanding of optimized is not a flaw in the player by any means. I actually prefer playing in unoptimized games).

Optimization Part2: Now, earlier in the thread you stated "I am easily the party's optimizer." As a first time DM with only one previous games experience as a player, and the party optimizer, this presents a problem. (This is not intended as any sort of attack of flame, not calling you a noob or anything of the sort). It means that while you understand the rules, you have little practical experience with them in live play. This can be a very important distinction. My general advice to anyone in this situation would be to completely avoid creating custom BBEG. Use creatures from the various monster lists. This avoids a situation where you build something from scratch that is optimized in a way the party has a very hard time dealing with. The balance between a monster and a BBEG built using PC class rules can be a very wide thing. It can be tough to really get a feel for this, especially as a first time DM, doubly so as someone with very little play experience. Again, not trying to insult or attack you, just saying that lack of experience combined with optimization knowledge can cause a LOT of problems.

Party Mistakes: This has been touched on a bit already, and I'm not going to rehash the points already brought up. Firstly using Save or die/save or suck spells against a BBEG is always questionable since they usually have protection from just such effects otherwise the encounter would be straight up trivial. Now, from what has been said it sounds like they knew this fight was coming. The fact that a Cleric of Pelor was having difficulty with an undead, and had a spell list full of things like Destruction and other spells that would not effect an undead BBEG is just straight up mind boggling to me. Honestly, the TPK rests heavily on his shoulders IMO. From the sound of things all the players have a bit of responsibility relying far far too heavily on Save vs "Effect" that are clearly not going to work here, and doubly so for a cleric of pelor. It sounds like they had some bad luck in regards to rolls, which hurt them, but it also sounds like they made some staggeringly bad choices.

Nitpick: Now we come to the unfortunate part where I pick at something. First off, if this BBEG is some sort of cold based lich thing with immunity to cold (See my earlier bit about the party making BAD choices in spell preparation and such) I have to question the contingency. The BBEG has been studying the PCs and knows the druid will use cold-sub fire seed bombs on him, however he is immune to the cold damage. Using a contingency for that considering all the other things the PCs can bring to bear just screams meta game to me. That is the thought process of a throwaway villain trying to screw the PCs, not an highly intelligent person trying to stay alive in an EXTREMELY dangerous situation. You don't use that potent of a defense for something that you are immune to anyways. (Just a nitpick on my part here I guess, it just felt like a very metagame choice designed to screw the player).

Nitpick Part2: If the druid has the saint template he is immune to cold damage. How exactly did he kill himself with cold-sub fireseeds? The fight may have gone very differently if the druid hadn't somehow killed himself with damage that he should be immune to.

Just my take on things, longer than I intended it to be I suppose. Everything is intended to help, and not as an attack on you or your players. Everyone stumbles as both a player and a DM, it's part of learning and growing. The important thing is to learn from it and use that to become a better player/dm.


Wow thanks for the in depth response.

In regards to the CR difference with the saint another huge benefit is from wisdom to ac, with one being a Druid and the other being a cleric they both have around 32 + wisdom and have huge bonuses to touch ac which makes it difficult for the astral golem to hit them (he was grappled originally because he didn't have truesight up and the astral golem was invisible) and also the bonus to Wisdom gained from the class is a huge gain. Normally it isn't that big of a deal but that extra +2 gave both of them an additional 9th lvl spell, actually I also just learned this today but the Druid hadn't cast his last 9th lvl spell.... comet strike from frostburn, that propably would have helped.

In regards to the artifacts most of the artifact powers they chose with my approval so they do have a good idea on what they need to do to cover their class's flaws. Though In regards to optimization I think what you said in Optimization 1 is completely right, they do tend to get builds from online and don't fully understand what they are doing. Really looking back it would make sense for them to stick to one tactic over and over again because most online builds tend to emphasize one trick over all else.


For what you said in optimization two, I did notice that for certain earlier bosses that I sent agianst them it went completly oppisite from how I expected, such as them being unable to counter what I considered to be a basic trick and I agree I probably should use less PC class based bosses. Actually the first duengeon I sent them through was basicly a test to see what I could do without killing them :smallbiggrin:. Though I couldn't do that with this one because as I have said he was a player character that has attacked the party before and is the dragon to the BBEG.


For party mistakes the cleric doesn't show for every session and I belive he might have missed my OOC hints at the Thrallherd coming to attack them soon. Also the Cleric I belive orgionally fought agianst a the final Arena boss i breifly mentioned earilier, it was still a poor choice in spells because they were fighting huge barbarian that was going to have a huge con score and fort save, but still not as bad as preparing spells that can't hurt his enemies. Then agian half my camphain has been undead so preparing a few anti undead spells at all time would help.

I don't mind people nitpicking at all don't worry. The reason he had a contingency against the fire seeds spell is because during their second encounter with this Thrallherd (At this point he was still controlled by the player who had seen them use the fire seed spell constantly to kill bosses). So thats why he knows it's there go to ability (He couldn't use spell immunity because it gives no spell resistance). The reason he had a contingency against it was because the last time they fought they found out he was immune to cold and I asked the player if he still keeps the same contingency (i wanted to play the character relatively the same) and he said yes the next time they will use a fire fire seeds that will still do massive damage.
Also the Thrallherd is rather... insane. The Players don't know this but he has been destoryed about 3 times already by doing really rash things, rushing into the middle of a huge enemy empire's capital and trying to kill as many as possible b4 dieing (he did this twice before I had the BBEG force him to stop so he could do actual plot). He veiws his phalacteries as perfectly hidden so he doesn't worry about being destoryed that much. He is much like Xykon in OOTS ("Go ahead pound my body into dust I will just grow a new one later", as well as the "sacrificing minions" approach). I actually should ask his original player if he based it off Xykon >.>. Also the Druid's artifact grants him the ability to priece cold immunity (i gave him this because they were fighting frost giants for like 3 sessions >.> he didn't like his entire spell list being useless) and the Lich saw this during his encounter with a character that had immunity to cold and the Druid bypassed it completely.

For the second nitpick as I said just above his artifact makes cold go through cold immunity, that means his own cold immunity as well, (Ironically he had double cold immunity do to a spell in Frostburn)

Thanks for the help :smallwink:

Demidos
2011-02-11, 12:07 AM
The +2 save DCs was taken off....:smallwink:
Just saying

Vaynor
2011-02-11, 03:24 AM
The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.