Show my party how to optimize [3.P]

[MachineWraith]

First, some background:

I ran the Tomb of Horrors for my players as a Halloween game. I told them it was an incredibly nasty dungeon and that they would be facing very nasty traps and critters at every turn. I allowed all 3.5 material, and we ended up playing a bastardized mashup of 3.5 and Pathfinder. We used PF's skill system and they gained feats every other level, but Polymorph, Power Attack, etc were 3.5 incarnations.

Basically, I put them in the highest powered game possible, and told them to optimize. The result?

Little to no optimization, and effectively a TPK. The four-armed gargoyle killed 2 players, another fell to the poison from the chest full of vipers, and all but one were cleaned up by the bone golem. The one still alive ran for his life and never looked back.

TL;DR: Party doesn't know how to optimize. So, the plan now is to return to our normal campaign. I'm going to introduce the The Dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon) in this next session. He's only going to be 1 level above the PCs, but I want to show them the power of optimization, and how much more effective Tome of Battle characters can be than fighters (two of them played PHB3.5 Fighters ::facepalm::)

I'm only passable at optimization, so I thought I'd come to the Playground for a little help. Optimize me a level 11 ToB character with a "Hellknight" theme!

Please and thank you :smallbiggrin:

Edit: For the record, I'm not forcing them into this. They say they want high-powered campaigns with powerful characters. I'm just trying to show them how it's done.

[Otherworld Odd]

No offense, but it sure does have the feel that you're trying to make your players optimize. The best way to show them would just be going through the feats/spells or whatever and showing them what's good and what's bad.

But if your group is the much more casual type of gamer, I would just tone your game down for them and make it fun for them rather than optimizing. I know when I'm optimizing, I lose sight of my character concept and feel like I'm playing DnD with a gameshark.

Just how I feel, I suppose. Not trying to troll you or trash you. >.>

[MachineWraith]

No offense, but it sure does have the feel that you're trying to make your players optimize. The best way to show them would just be going through the feats/spells or whatever and showing them what's good and what's bad.

But if your group is the much more casual type of gamer, I would just tone your game down for them and make it fun for them rather than optimizing. I know when I'm optimizing, I lose sight of my character concept and feel like I'm playing DnD with a gameshark.

Just how I feel, I suppose. Not trying to troll you or trash you. >.>

No offense taken. After posting I thought someone might say something like this, thus I added


Edit: For the record, I'm not forcing them into this. They say they want high-powered campaigns with powerful characters. I'm just trying to show them how it's done.

They said they wanted an optimized campaign with powerful characters. When I ask if they're doing well with their character, they say they're fine and don't need help, that they're optimized well.

Then I check their sheet at the start of the game, and they're not optimized at all. I'm just trying to show them the meaning of the word optimized with a fun (but nasty) baddie in the regular campaign.

[Elfstone]

Give them examples, the WotC forum is a great place to show amazing optimizations of all kinds. Here to, though not as much. Print out a few optimized builds and show how it was done. You have to give people examples to build on.

[Otherworld Odd]

They said they wanted an optimized campaign with powerful characters. When I ask if they're doing well with their character, they say they're fine and don't need help, that they're optimized well.

Ah, gotchya. I didn't realize they told you they wanted an optimized game. In that case, show them examples as Elfstone said, and let them slowly realize how unoptimized their characters really are. Maybe give them tips on how they can optimize their character. I believe if you show them a hellknight based character who is optimized, they're just going to think that that character's class is more powerful than theirs.

[Admiral Squish]

Yeah, I would recommend not pulling out ToB just yet. Show them how to optimize in their own realm. If you bring in ToB to curbstomp them, they're just going to assume ToB is broken. But that does't mean 'don't curbstomp them'. Just do it with a barbarian or something.

[MachineWraith]

A fair point actually. I hope none of them tries to pull Pun-Pun, heh.

I suppose I'll show them some of the builds I've made, and how easily they could tear apart the party, then show them some builds online that could tear my builds apart... That will hopefully get the point across.

[mucat]

They said they wanted an optimized campaign with powerful characters. When I ask if they're doing well with their character, they say they're fine and don't need help, that they're optimized well.

Then I check their sheet at the start of the game, and they're not optimized at all. I'm just trying to show them the meaning of the word optimized with a fun (but nasty) baddie in the regular campaign.

Why is this a problem. It seems like they just mean something different from you when they say "optimized".

A "high-powered campaign" could mean optimized characters in the sense we're familiar with here on the board, or it could just mean playing at a higher level than they normally do. If they're unhappy with their characters and their power level, then by all means help them with their builds. But if the only problem is that they call their characters "optimized" and you disagree, then just ignore the difference in terminology, be glad your players have characters they like to play, and design encounters to challenge the characters as they are, not as you would have built them.

It sounds like what you're trying to do is make them unhappy with the characters in order to make a point about their optimization skills. If that's really what's happening, it's bad form on your part.

[BridgeCity]

Why is this a problem. It seems like they just mean something different from you when they say "optimized".

A "high-powered campaign" could mean optimized characters in the sense we're familiar with here on the board, or it could just mean playing at a higher level than they normally do. If they're unhappy with their characters and their power level, then by all means help them with their builds. But if the only problem is that they call their characters "optimized" and you disagree, then just ignore the difference in terminology, be glad your players have characters they like to play, and design encounters to challenge the characters as they are, not as you would have built them.

It sounds like what you're trying to do is make them unhappy with the characters in order to make a point about their optimization skills. If that's really what's happening, it's bad form on your part.

Agreed. If they asked for optimized and believe that they have it, and are happy with it, then there is no need to change anything. Its not broken, so don't fix it.

[Pechvarry]

I beg to differ.

Realizing certain things, like "my DM was wrong and I was right all that time -- spellcasters really are overpowered" has made me reassess D&D and what kind of things I'd like to do in it. We're now much better at making characters who are simply more fun to play, as opposed to the days when every single one of us wanted to see how much damage we could theoretically do in one turn (but never actually could). We're also much more qualified at introducing homebrew changes and can see their potential effects on a campaign.

Optimizing is like TV Tropes. There's no going back; your eyes are forever open.

[Keld Denar]

So, you want an ECL11 Dragon?

Dwarf Ranger1/Fighter2/Barbarian2/Deepwarden2/BearWarrior1/FistoftheForest1/Warshaper2

Turn into a bear. Punch people. You have Con to AC twice, so he'll be nearly untoughable, and his Str will be massive enough that he can grab and maul most people. Steadfast Determination (PHBII) applies that Con to Will Saves to keep him safe from being a Very Bad ThingTM. His only real weakness is Ref saves, which with his massive pool of HP won't be a terrible weakness.

Attack routine will be:
UAS +11/+6/+1
Claw +6
Claw +6
Bite +6

Before Str and other misc bonuses. Thats 6 attacks per round, not too shabby, eh?

[faceroll]

So, you want an ECL11 Dragon?

Mr. Keld, I'm always a huge fan of your builds, but what's a Dragon? I've seen this term mentioned in relation to NPC roles, but what is it's literary context?

NO TVTROPES LINKS I HAVE THINGS TO DO.

[Keld Denar]

Dragon is the "trope" for the evil mastermind's big bad henchman. Generally known more for muscles than brains. The best example of this would probably be Jaws from the James Bond movies. He's really big, really intimidating, but he's not the evil overlord himself.

[faceroll]

Dragon is the "trope" for the evil mastermind's big bad henchman. Generally known more for muscles than brains. The best example of this would probably be Jaws from the James Bond movies. He's really big, really intimidating, but he's not the evil overlord himself.

Do you know the origin of the term? I want to say Beowulf, but the Dragon was all sinister and tricksy, wasn't it? Or maybe I am just remembering Grendel.

[Keld Denar]

Read it for yourself! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon)
Hope you didn't have anything better to do tonight...

[faceroll]

Read it for yourself! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon)
Hope you didn't have anything better to do tonight...

Nooooooooooooooooo!!!! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigNo)

[Greenish]

It'll ruin your life (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife). :smallbiggrin:

But, back to the topic, how about a cleric, or better yet, cleric/crusader/RKV?

[Killer Angel]

TL;DR: Party doesn't know how to optimize. So, the plan now is to return to our normal campaign. I'm going to introduce the The Dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon) in this next session. He's only going to be 1 level above the PCs, but I want to show them the power of optimization, and how much more effective Tome of Battle characters can be than fighters (two of them played PHB3.5 Fighters ::facepalm::)


if you optimize, while your players don't, keep the dragon at their level or, even better, one lower. Otherwise, they'll think a part of the difference will come from the level, not from the optimization.

[Psyx]

Nooooo!


Your players are having fun. Why force them to turn the games into maths and to play 'your' way?

If they ALL don't like it, your ruining the game. If only a few take to the idea, you've just created a vast power divide in your group that WILL cause problems.