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Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 08:13 PM
I was reading ToM (my favorite D&D book by far) and I realized that Knight of the Sacred Seal stacks with Scion of Dantalion. Between them you get +10 DR/adamant, the ability to use your special abilities twice in a round and some other goodies. The only problem is, Dantalion is the least combat oriented vestige.

Now my question to everyone: Would this ever actually be useful?

Thurbane
2010-11-11, 08:53 PM
If you go Binder/SoD/KotSS, the only issue you really have is being stuck with Dantalion as one of your daily vestige choices...and that shouldn't be too big a problem, especially by the time you can bind 3 vestiges.

If you're not to keen on that, just go Binder/kotSS, and select a favored vestige that is more combat related. Personally, I'm a huge fan of Balam, particularly for Balam's Cunning - who doesn't love a free re-roll 1/5 rounds (or 1/4 rounds if you're willing to burn some feats).

JaronK
2010-11-11, 09:39 PM
There's also of course the Anima Mage, which is an absolutely amazing PrC to use. You need lose only three binding levels to gain immense power.

JaronK

Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 10:00 PM
There's also of course the Anima Mage, which is an absolutely amazing PrC to use. You need lose only three binding levels to gain immense power.

JaronK

You mean you only lose three levels of wizard to tack on some Binding :P

As for combat ones, there are quite a few out there that are pretty good; nothing seems amazing to me individually but together you can get some really nice combos (Savnok, Eurynome and Andras together make you into a reasonably good charger starting at 12th level (you get a +3 Maul in one hand, +4 DR/Piercing and Magic, lots of mounted abilities, and several improved crit abilities. Not bad for all of it being free.)

It's a shame they don't let you combine Binder with Shadowcaster or Warlock; Warlock in particular because it shares the backstory.

Psyren
2010-11-11, 10:26 PM
You mean you only lose three levels of wizard to tack on some Binding :P

I prefer cleric myself - Using the Anima Priest adaptation (ToM pg. 53) you can stack Anima Mage on top of Tenebrous Apostate.

Cleric 4/Binder 1 (Improved Binding)/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5 gets you casting as Cleric 18 (9ths), soul binding as a Binder 16 (+2 thanks to Improved Binding = 8th level vestiges, the maximum.)

As for Dantalion, yeah he sucks unless you're in a low-combat campaign. Skip that PrC.

WinWin
2010-11-11, 10:49 PM
Scion of Dantalion has a few debuff abilities that aid in combat.

Being able to daze or blind foes. High mobility due to the dimension door effect. The Awe of Dantalion does not protect your allies, but might provide an extra buff round or time for emergency healing (on you or an ally).

Mindspy looks as though it would synergise fairly well, but would stunt binder progression.

At the very least, being able to read peoples thoughts quickly is a great way to get information during a game.

The major flaws in using Dantalion is that the offensive abilities of the vestige and the prestige class are not going to effect a large subset of opponents (those immune to mind effecting abilities and fortitude related effects)

Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 10:57 PM
I prefer cleric myself - Using the Anima Priest adaptation (ToM pg. 53) you can stack Anima Mage on top of Tenebrous Apostate.


Ouch. Nice call!

I like the wizard+Halphax myself, because you become the perfect area control specialist. Wall of Iron as a standard action isn't great, but you do have infinite used of it. And DR 10/adamant is nice for a wizard.

What do you all think the most powerful of the Vestiges are? Any really good combinations?

Akal Saris
2010-11-12, 12:58 AM
I think the most powerful vestige is Zceryll, she of infinite Summon Monster spells, plus telepathy, mindsight, resistances, and a daze lazer. She is ridiculous :smalltongue:

Besides Zceryll, my favorite vestiges for flavor are Acererak and Paimon, while Naberius leads to some amusing diplomancer or ability damage tricks. They're all fun though :)

Psyren
2010-11-12, 01:13 AM
Zceryll is the best, and single-handedly brings Binders perilously close to Tier 2. Naberius and Savnok are perennial favorites.

My personal weapons of choice are Karsus (effectively, free UMD that can be used in combat) and Focalor for lightning spam. Aym is great at low levels for letting you sprint in full plate.

One thing many Binder players forget is that all vestige abilities are supernatural. This means that blasting powers, like Focalor's Lightning, ignore SR and spell immunity. Zap those golems :smallsmile:

arguskos
2010-11-12, 01:20 AM
I think the most powerful vestige is Zceryll, she of infinite Summon Monster spells, plus telepathy, mindsight, resistances, and a daze lazer. She is ridiculous :smalltongue:

Besides Zceryll, my favorite vestiges for flavor are Acererak and Paimon, while Naberius leads to some amusing diplomancer or ability damage tricks. They're all fun though :)
Paimon! PAIMON OH MY UNHOLY GOD PAIMON. Paimon is a freaking MONSTER. The Dance of Death ability is brutalizing beyond reason. Better yet because you can access Paimon at level 2 (with a feat). This leads into a story, actually.

Around 8 months ago, I was running a D&D game for some buddies, and their quest at the time was to clear out this evil cult full of all sorts of strange magic users, the party was level 2. There were binders, shadowcasters, hexblades, debasers (custom class from the playground, think a more magical, less martial hexblade), and warlocks. During the big attack on the cult, they ran up against a pair of binder 1's and a binder 2. The Binder 1's were Amon and Savnok, and the Binder 2 was Paimon. Holy. Freaking. Hell. They almost wiped on these guys. I'd given them decent stats (but nothing absurd) and the party was pretty decently put together, but the combination of the tanking Savnok, the AoE and multiple attacking Amon, and the DPSing Paimon (dance of death is siiiiick) was almost too much. Don't underestimate Paimon!

At low levels, Savnok and Amon are good front-line vestiges as well. All three rank among my favorites, with Leraje (Ricochet!) and Focalor being up there for other reasons too.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-12, 01:34 AM
Zceryll is pretty close to broken, considering you can add multiple vestiges.

I seem to be drawn to the ones that add the most defenses to the Binder. Orthos+Halphax gives you DR and permanent Displacement (and some interesting area effects).

Another one I like is Malphas+Otiax+Andromalius. You get 10d6 extra damage on a sneak attack/flatfooted, and you have a 2d6 air bullet that never runs out to deliver it through. Not the greatest attack ever but you essentially just made a free Arcane Trickster; and you can full attack with it.

JaronK
2010-11-12, 04:21 AM
You mean you only lose three levels of wizard to tack on some Binding :P

Never! Improved Binding means you only lose one level of your casting class... and with the divine Anima Mage Adaptation, you can pull off the all powerful Archivist 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1. 16 levels of Binding, 19 levels of Archivist casting, free metamagic and spell components... youch.

Then again, that's probably far too powerful for most campaigns.

JaronK

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-12, 09:13 AM
Indeed. The Tainted Sorcerer is a great endcap. It's like a Maho-Tsukai that works for prepared spellcasters as well as spontaneous ones. Also, if your planing on going the archivist/binder route I highly recommend the academic priest feat. It's a 1st level only feat that makes int your casting stat for everything but DC. Usually it's a feat that creates MAD but when used with an archivist actually has the opposite effect since int is already their casting stat and thus the only thing that changes is their bonus spells being based on int instead of wis. This allows you to thus dumb wisdom and put more points into the cha you need for your binder side.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 09:25 AM
Actually, that's a common misconception - Binders don't need Cha at all. They don't really need any stat. (Though some abilities are better with high Cha, sure.)

Another of my favorite builds is the standard Martial Binder - Binder 15/KotSS 5. 17 BAB (all 4 attacks) and they make great gishes. Very straightforward too - a nice way to get a tier 3 melee without ToB or psionics.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-12, 09:27 AM
I am so tempted to build a binder knight of the sacred seal, focusing on Paimon...>_<

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-12, 09:32 AM
Yes, but after reading the ToM It seems that binding becomes easier with a good charisma(I believe there is a check that utilizes Cha made when binding to determine if you get punishments/negative effects/whatever from binding.) I have never played a binder, however, so I can't say that I have enough experience with the class to say how hard or easy that check is to make without a high cha and if failing that check is really that bad.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-12, 09:38 AM
Two things.
First some people say that bad pacts are funnier to role-play, personally I can't comment as I haven't played a binder.

Second, is not that difficult to make a good pact without cha, as long as you don't have a penalty to cha I believe it is easy to make the binding check, most of the vestige have reasonable pact DC for the EBL they can be binded at.

Greenish
2010-11-12, 09:47 AM
Two things.
First some people say that bad pacts are funnier to role-play, personally I can't comment as I haven't played a binder.The pacts vary. Giving a coin to every dwarf you meet is no biggie, but being unable to loot bodies is bad for business. :smallcool:

Psyren
2010-11-12, 10:15 AM
Some of the influences (i.e. the penalties for a bad pact) are funny, but could indeed screw your party over at a critical moment. For example, Paimon's influence forces you to dance whenever you hear music of any kind, cutting your move speed in half. This of course includes bards, whether one on your own team or an enemy. You also can't suppress signs if you make a bad pact, and some of the vestiges (like Amon) can easily get you thrown out of town or arrested if you look weird enough.

Having said that, it really isn't hard to make the Binding check. Skilled Pact Making is available as early as 3 if you need the help, and Implements of Binding are pretty cheap as well. (You can craft any item you need yourself thanks to Astaroth.) You can also just buff Charisma prior to making the check (Eagle's Splendor potion, nymph's cloak etc) and switch back to regular gear once the vestige has contracted with you.

Finally, you can just ignore the influence in dire straits, and take the penalty for doing so.

arguskos
2010-11-12, 10:51 AM
The pacts vary. Giving a coin to every dwarf you meet is no biggie, but being unable to loot bodies is bad for business. :smallcool:
Your buddies do it then fork over your share. You can always be paid for your hard work of killing folk. When they ask why they gotta do it that way, just explain that "it's a bad day to be me, alright?" :smallwink:

Tvtyrant
2010-11-12, 03:36 PM
So pact magic is pretty obviously awesome (by the medium BaB and special abilities its supposed to be equivalent to a Bard, which it blows out of the water). The one issue I have is that its blasting abilities are... Rather subpar. Even at level 20 with four blasting vestiges (so you can blast 4 turns out of 5) you still don't do enough damage to justify using gaze attacks or the tornado things Orthos does (though that one is better).

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-12, 03:39 PM
Thats what Anima Mage is for. If you want to be blasty and be able to use pacts then Anima Mage is really the best bet for that. However, being a blaster is a far from optimal way to use Anima Mage but an Anima Mage will still make a better blaster then a strait binder.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 03:45 PM
Keep in mind that Binder blasting has inherent advantages. Their abilities are all supernatural - this not only means ignoring SR and immunity completely, but also not provoking AoOs and being uncounterable/undispellable.

Also, between Karsus and Astaroth you can craft and use any wand, stave, scroll etc. you could want; kind of like a caster Incarnate but without needing UMD checks.

I agree though - Anima Mage is the way to go if you really want a casting Binder.

OMG PONIES
2010-11-12, 03:52 PM
I am so tempted to build a binder knight of the sacred seal, focusing on Paimon...>_<

My entry for Iron Chef XI was pretty much this: a binder 3/paladin 4/blade bravo 10/Knight of the Sacred Seal 2/Marshal 1. Feel free to take out Blade Bravo levels to taste.

Here she is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9321125&postcount=154) (Background sonnets at the beginning...scroll down for the meat and potatoes of the build).

Tvtyrant
2010-11-12, 03:59 PM
So essentially they are good at it for the reasons that Shadowcasters are, and bad at it for the same reasons. Makes sense. I just keep hoping I will find the right vestige combo to make Demogorgon!

Anyway, I really like Binder, but the lack of save or dies and direct damage is sad. For instance the handbook essentially suggests multi-classing like crazy to make it devastating, which lowers its versatility.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 04:07 PM
I read ToM thusly - Binder is the wonky Cleric, Shadowcaster is the wonky Wizard, and Truenamer is the wonky Bard. They have several themes in common with their more orthodox cousins.

Also, don't feel bad for the Binder; any class with officially sanctioned homebrew (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060324a) is sitting pretty. If you think the current vestiges aren't casty enough, just make your own that are :smallsmile:

The underlying advantages (supernatural abilities and unlimited use) will remain.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-12, 04:20 PM
That would actually explain why Truenamer is so much worse then the others. If they are all one step behind what they should be like then a step behind Bard is monk/Truenamer :P

I actually like Shadowcaster more then Wizard; better fluff and I like being able to counterspell/warpspell. Binder is probably weaker then Cleric (or definitely), but I like its fluff and its good for versatility. Gestalt Binder/Bard~Chameleon would be awesome.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-12, 06:46 PM
Seeing as that's officially sanctioned I think that I may actually try out an Anima Mage who focuses on Necromancy as far as casting goes. Why? Via a necromancy themed vestige I can actually make an arcane caster that can cast desecrate more then once per day and dose not need to have at least 12 wisdom to cast it (The two main flaws with Arcane Disciple....and yes, I know, the death master can do that too but that's a 3rd party class and since wizards actually put that info up I think I would have an easier time getting some home made vestiges approved then a 3rd party class in some cases.) and in addition to having desecrate he would have wizard levels AND other vestiges that he can bind.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-12, 07:37 PM
You might want to consider Sorc instead. Your binding DC's are charisma based, and you want to prevent MAD as much as possible. Also you can get some diplomancer synergy with a few of the vestiges while in town.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-12, 07:47 PM
Perhaps, but the issue with sorcs is their spells known. Due to that I would have far less options as far as, you know, necromancy goes? Since I would have to pic the spells that "work the best" I would hardly have room for necromancy spells since my spells known would be mostly stuff like sleep and all the other "key" spells. I mean, I suppose I could use a necromancy focused sorc, but doing so would be horridly unoptimized as far as using a sorc base goes.

Thus, if I am to use a cha based caster for this build I would use a Dread Necromancer instead since DNs do necromancy far better then Sorcs even if they are a tier below them. However, the DN is already a good necro on it's own. The whole reason I would be using the anima mage would be for A) the versatility that comes with being a caster/binder and B) The fact that homebrew vestiges are an official, non-homebrew, non-3rd party way to make a wizard necromancer who is equal to a cleric in the department of the undead legion.

I am sick and tired of wizard necromancers being debuff/soul focused and have tirelessly looked for official ways to make a Necromancer wizard an undead legion maker/leader on the same level as the cleric, and using homebrew vestiges seems to be a valid way to do that.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-12, 07:56 PM
Tenebrous vestige already gives you turn undead like a caster of your level, so you don't need to worry about that. And your rebuke ability is based on charisma, so again greater synergy.

You hardly need spells that "work the best," your combining sorc with the most flexible class in the game. Let the vestiges deal with the weird stuff and have your sorc parts concentrate on the powers of undeath.

Anyway, either option is good, I just hate MAD and your going to get it if you are boosting both Int and Cha (and con and dex).

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-12, 08:09 PM
Yeah, I know what you mean. I can deal with some MAD if it means not having to worry about a strict spells-known limit. Many times MAD is not worth it but there are rare cases where it is, this being one of them. At low levels a necro based sorc without binding is really not going to be that great. At low levels that sorc is going to be wishing he had sleep or color spray when instead he has chill touch. Necromancy for arcane casters generally has very few good spells at low levels(Though there are some gems such as ray of enfeeblement.) and thus in a game where you start out low level being a sorc who is NOT picking the standard sorc choices is going to hurt big time. However, in game where you can start out high enough level to get some binding in there sorc as an entry may be viable.

However, for low level games I would rather suffer some MAD to be able to not have to worry about spells known then use a sorc base and from other posters I am hearing that a super high cha is not totally necessary to be good at binding either.(Though it certainly dose help.)

However, there may be some ACF or feat which can give a sorc more spells known but if there is I have no idea of what it is or if such a thing even exists, for that matter.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-12, 08:42 PM
I totally hear you. I would probably take the Binder prereqs first, and the casters later because then you don't have to play a commoner with chill touch.

I think the big question is how many levels would the game go. I have never had a game go past level 11, so high end stuff is more of a theoretical idea then something I would ever consider. At high end I think the sorc is better then the wizard in this case, because the crafting stuff is dealt with by vestiges and because there is more synergy, but at low levels I agree that as far as necromancy goes Wizard is better. You could always just use the Tenebrous prestige class and be a cleric/Binder :P

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-12, 08:48 PM
Or archivist/binder because I like high int more then high wis for RP reasons. Somebody in fact already mentioned that combo earlier in this thread.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 08:56 PM
A Favored Soul of Tenebrous would have amazing flavor (and Charisma) synergy. Your life's mission of course being to restore your lord and master from vestige to deity state.

FS 4/Binder 1 (I.B.)/Anima Mage 4/TA 5/AM +6

(9th-level spells, 8th-level vestiges)

The most interesting part is that Tenebrous himself allows you to satisfy the Turn Undead requirement.

(You can potentially get into Anima Mage even earlier with Versatile Spellcaster.)

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-12, 09:17 PM
Yeah. FS is a good entry though it's even MORE MAD then the wizard entry since favored souls use wisdom for DCs instead of cha. While I know that DCs don't matter for buffs they do matter for necromancy thats not undead animation and desecrating so unless I was able to get a houserueling that FS uses cha for DCs instead of wis then a FS would not be ideal for what I am looking to do. He would however, make a great melee based pact user. With the great cleric buffs such as Divine Power + all the nice melee vestiges as FS/Binder based Anima Mage would make a nasty melee type character.

A Necromancer? Not so much. Unless of course he decided not to use any offensive necromancy spells and just focus on undead animating in the necro department and make the rest of his spells known buffs or things that don't care about DCs. However, that would make him, once again, inferior to a cleric UNLESS I homebrewed some Vestiges that gave him negative energy blasts which is actually a not so bad option. Thus his FS spells would be animation + buffs and MAYBE a heal or two and if I have room some summoning(The Summon Undead line seems thematically appropriate.) and interplanar traveling effects such as Plane Shift/Gate while he would use Vestiges for the negative energy effects. In a sense he would play out kinda like a cha-based necromancer cleric who likes to lead from the front lines. Use your FS spells to desecrate, animate undead and buff up and then heal your undead and rebuke with your vestiges. The only thing your missing now is save or dies, but again, the answer is just homebrew a vestige for that.

Psyren
2010-11-12, 09:40 PM
Focus on level drain and you won't need DCs at all :smalltongue:

In any case it was more a general suggestion for divine caster + binder, not really geared at your specific build.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-13, 01:22 AM
It would be kinda cool to do a post-blood war set of vestiges; one for each of the Demon Lords and Dukes of Hell. Design them as level 9 vestiges that take up all four vestige slots :D

Psyren
2010-11-13, 01:25 AM
It would be kinda cool to do a post-blood war set of vestiges; one for each of the Demon Lords and Dukes of Hell. Design them as level 9 vestiges that take up all four vestige slots :D

Even the epic ones don't do that >.>

Tvtyrant
2010-11-13, 01:30 AM
Even the epic ones don't do that >.>

I did say post-blood war, it would be more homebrew and less acceptable. However the abilities would be to make you act like an aspect of the in question Power. For instance Demogorgon's would given you two turns in a row once every 5 rounds, would give you debuffing tentacles and a pair of every 5 rounds gaze attacks. Mephistopheles would give you hell fire attacks every 5 rounds and permanent flying (essentially a warlock), and Dagon would give you reaching tentacles, a +10 to grapple and a powerful fear effect. They wouldn't be all powerful, but they would let you compete at capstone without being a Anima Mage.

Psyren
2010-11-13, 01:41 AM
What I meant was "even the epic ones don't take up all 4 of your binding slots."
They would have to be extremely powerful to overcome that disadvantage.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-13, 03:26 AM
Built a quick example one; all saves are as the DC of the spell they emulate. Too weak, too strong. Need some opinions on improvement.
Demogorgon Vestige:

[insert back story fluff here]

Sign: You gain blue markings like a baboon under your eyes and your canines grow.

Influence: Your opinion becomes split over everything. Any time your life is not directly threatened you must make at least a minute to make any decisions.

Granted abilities:

Madness' Form: Your arms each split into two tentacles, giving you four 1d6 tentacles. Each time a tentacle hits choose one of the following status effects:

1.Drain~Target makes Fort save or suffers the effect of enervation as though cast by a wizard of the Binders level.
2.Rot~Target makes a Fort save or takes 1d6 con damage followed by a further point of con damage per turn.
3.Break~The enemy has to make a Fort save or suffers 1d6 int damage immediately, with a further loss of 1 point of int per turn.
4.Atrophy~ Target must make a Fort save or suffer 1d6 str damage immediately, with a further loss of 1 point of str per turn.

Madness' Actions: You may take two turns in a row by spending a free action at the beginning of the first of those turns. You can act on these turns exactly like a normal turn, for example you could take two standard actions and two move actions, or you could take two full-round actions. Once you have used this ability you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.

Madness' Eyes: You have two constant gaze attacks, both in a thirty foot cone:
1. Insanity Gaze: Will save or target is effected as if by the insanity spell.
2. Hypnotic Gaze: Will save of target is effected as if by the hypnosis spell.

Madness' Focus: You can use a full round action to focus your gazes together on one target. The target must make a will save or be effected as by the dominate monster spell. Once used this ability cannot be used for 5 rounds.

Arbane
2010-11-13, 05:21 AM
I wonder if whoever thought this class up was a fan of the Persona series of CRPGs?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-13, 03:58 PM
hmmm how would a Gish Anima Priest sounds? I would obviously use DMM persisted Divine power to counter the bad BAB of Anima Pries.

Binder 1/Cleric 4/Anima Priest 10/ Knight of the Sacred Seal, for a nice Binder heavy gish... or tenebrus apostate for a more caster oriented build.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-13, 06:44 PM
It would definitely work. The question is if you think the advantages of Knight of the Sacred Seal are equal to losing 9th level cleric slots. Personally I think you would do better going Tenebrous and then simply selfbuffing like mad.

Psyren
2010-11-13, 06:47 PM
KotSS has two advantages over TA: Martial Weapons and full EBL. (TA loses a level.)

I agree that 4 caster levels outweigh that by a large margin though.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-13, 06:48 PM
Possibly, but I guess we all have reached the concensus that 9th level spell are gamebreaking, so I think it won't matter much in a lowered powered game.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-13, 06:53 PM
That's true. I also like Tenebrous as a fluff thing, but if you don't care about the 9ths then yeah go KoSS for DR.

Psyren
2010-11-13, 07:00 PM
Well, another thing Tenebrous gives you is unlimited turning, letting you DMM all day long. Your DM will need to inject some sanity here though.

Thurbane
2010-11-13, 07:02 PM
Well, another thing Tenebrous gives you is unlimited turning, letting you DMM all day long. Your DM will need to inject some sanity here though.
Since you only get 1 turning attempt 1/5 rounds (by strict reading of the ability), it's not going to be that useful for DMM. It's great for fueling Domain Feats, though...

Psyren
2010-11-13, 07:04 PM
Since you only get 1 turning attempt 1/5 rounds (by strict reading of the ability), it's not going to be that useful for DMM. It's great for fueling Domain Feats, though...

Even so, that's still unlimited free extends (just wait 30 seconds between each hour/lvl duration buff.) You can even do it before bedtime.

OMG PONIES
2010-11-14, 06:37 PM
Even so, that's still unlimited free extends (just wait 30 seconds between each hour/lvl duration buff.) You can even do it before bedtime.

Doesn't DMM: Extend cost two turn attempts?

Psyren
2010-11-14, 06:40 PM
Doesn't DMM: Extend cost two turn attempts?

True, I forgot the initial one. So you can consider Tenebrous as an additional -1 to every DMM you use. (Nothing says the turning attempts all have to be from one source.)

Tvtyrant
2010-11-14, 06:44 PM
Of course you could always use a few levels in KoSS to use it more rapidly once your Tenebrous Apostate levels run out.