The Empire of Tears

[goodyarn]

Until this latest strip (#757), I had assumed The Empire of Tears got its name because its rulers forced *other people* to shed tears, kinda like how the Empire of Blood sheds other people's blood.

But the Captain's use of the slang term "Weepies" to describe the Empire of Tears, coupled with the rows of soldiers in blue armor in strip #756, is making me second guess that.

Maybe they're all really depressed in the Empire of Tears?

[Marnath]

The general theory I've heard is that collectively the empires of sweat, blood and tears are a reference to some speech Churchill gave. And if the theme in the EoB is brutality, then maybe the EoT is all about causing their people mental anguish? I don't know.

[BridgeCity]

Interesting idea, but I just assume everyone else calls them weepies because they are at war, and coining an insulting term to refer to the enemy is a common occurance.

As for Churchill, relevant part of speech below:

I would say to the House as I said to those who have joined this government: I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering.

[Porthos]

The general theory I've heard is that collectively the empires of sweat, blood and tears are a reference to some speech Churchill gave.

Perhaps. But considering all of the Pop Culture references in this strip, I'd think it was more likely a reference to Blood, Sweat & Tears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_Sweat_&_Tears). :smallwink:

[BridgeCity]

Perhaps. But considering all of the Pop Culture references in this strip, I'd think it was more likely a reference to Blood, Sweat & Tears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood,_Sweat_&_Tears). :smallwink:

Can't say I'd agree on that one. Yeah there are lots of pop-culture references, but I would think that quoting the initial war-time speech of a political leader at a time in the comic where the PCs are in an area that is constantly embroiled in war would be more likely.

Edit: I'm sure someone will say the Churchill quote mentions toil, and so therefore isn't the reference, but I'd say that not many people remember that there are four things mentioned, and that the popular phrase has become blood, sweat and tears.

[rewinn]

Can't say I'd agree on that one. Yeah there are lots of pop-culture references, but I would think that quoting the initial war-time speech of a political leader at a time in the comic where the PCs are in an area that is constantly embroiled in war would be more likely.

Edit: I'm sure someone will say the Churchill quote mentions toil, and so therefore isn't the reference, but I'd say that not many people remember that there are four things mentioned, and that the popular phrase has become blood, sweat and tears.

:miko: What is this Church Hill of which you speak?

[Porthos]

Edit: I'm sure someone will say the Churchill quote mentions toil, and so therefore isn't the reference, but I'd say that not many people remember that there are four things mentioned, and that the popular phrase has become blood, sweat and tears.

Well, actually. :smalltongue:

I was also going to point out that on the map, it is in the order of the band name and not the speech (which is blood tears sweat). Moreover, and no offense meant to Churchill, I think the phrase "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" is more associated with the band than the speech in the US.

Now who knows? Maybe you're right. But given that Rich has shown more than a passing appreciation for famous muscial bands (The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin, The Who, et etc), I'm sticking with my interpretation. :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

Er, guys, isn't "blood, sweat, and tears" just a common expression for putting everything you have into something? I've never heard of that band or of Churchill's use of it in that speech, but I've sure as hell heard that phrase before.

Zevox

[BridgeCity]

Well, actually. :smalltongue:

I was also going to point out that on the map, it is in the order of the band name and not the speech (which is blood tears sweat). Moreover, and no offense meant to Churchill, I think the phrase "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" is more associated with the band than the speech in the US.

I am happy to concede it is a possibility. Though the phrase was used by an American before it was used by Churchill (see below) so it may be pretty well known in the US too, I wouldn't know however.


Er, guys, isn't "blood, sweat, and tears" just a common expression for putting everything you have into something? I've never heard of that band or of Churchill's use of it in that speech, but I've sure as hell heard that phrase before.

Zevox

The line was used first (that we know of) by Giuseppe Garibaldi, on 2 July 1849, to rally his revolutionary forces in Rome.

Then Theodore Roosevelt also used the phrase in an address to the Naval War College on June 2, 1897, after being appointed as Assistant Secretary of the Navy.

But the most famous example, and the one that caused the phrase to become a commonly known one, was Winston Churchill's address to the House of Commons of the Parliament of the United Kingdom on 13 May 1940.

As I'm sure is clear, the phrase was mostly used when making military speeches before it was used for much else.

It then began getting shortened to 'blood, sweat and tears.'

[BlackKettle]

Er, guys, isn't "blood, sweat, and tears" just a common expression for putting everything you have into something? I've never heard of that band or of Churchill's use of it in that speech, but I've sure as hell heard that phrase before.

Zevox

I agreed with you, but this is the "find the underlying meaning forum" isn't it?

[Zevox]

The line was used first (that we know of) by Giuseppe Garibaldi, on 2 July 1849, to rally his revolutionary forces in Rome.

Then Theodore Roosevelt also used the phrase in an address to the Naval War College on June 2, 1897, after being appointed as Assistant Secretary of the Navy.

But the most famous example, and the one that caused the phrase to become a commonly known one, was Winston Churchill's address to the House of Commons of the Parliament of the United Kingdom on 13 May 1940.

As I'm sure is clear, the phrase was mostly used when making military speeches before it was used for much else.

It then began getting shortened to 'blood, sweat and tears.'
Doesn't much matter what its origins are if it is currently a common, well-known phrase. In that case it doesn't have to be reference to anything other than that common phrase itself, especially if the origins of it are no longer well-known, as I'd wager is the case here.

Zevox

[BridgeCity]

Doesn't much matter what its origins are if it is currently a common, well-known phrase. In that case it doesn't have to be reference to anything other than that common phrase itself, especially if the origins of it are no longer well-known, as I'd wager is the case here.

Zevox

You are correct in saying that it doesn't have to be a reference to the origins, but it is still possible, and therefore a valid point. Given that we are discussing what it could possibly be a reference to, it makes sense to know the origins of the common phrase even if it is just the common phrase being quoted.

Also, I would say Winston Churchill's quote is extremely well known. Most of England, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, France and a whole raft of other European countries would be familiar with it. I get that this is predominantly an American comic and that it may not be a well known speech in America, but that is not the same as 'no longer being well-known.'

[Thanatosia]

You are correct in saying that it doesn't have to be a reference to the origins, but it is still possible
Given that the order of the empires on the map matches the common phrase and not the phrasing used by Churchill, and that there is no empire of Toil, I think its safe to assume its a reference to the phrase itself, and not directly to Churchil's speach. If it was intended as a direct reference to the speach and not the phrase that the speach helped become popular, it would have more accurately reflected the version from the speach.

[Jan Mattys]

:miko: What is this Church Hill of which you speak?

Good one, I lol'd :smallbiggrin:

[Swordpriest]

My personal take is that it isn't a direct reference to any of the above. I've heard "blood, sweat, and tears" as a phrase meaning anything difficult or unpleasant since I was tiny. Methinks it's just part of the idiomatic baggage of English now, and it was only natural that this bunch of dictatorships should have something to do with blood, sweat, and tears.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Fact is we say blood, sweat and tears in Sweden as well, but in Swedish. And even tough I know about Churchill's speech I had heard the phrase long before that.

[Onyavar]

Fact is we say blood, sweat and tears in Sweden as well, but in Swedish. And even tough I know about Churchill's speech I had heard the phrase long before that.

Copy that for the german language.

Back to topic, I find it likely that the three Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears are conncected. Tarquin and Malaak might be only two high level characters (Fighter and Cleric). Empire of Tears has the ranger and the bard, Empire of Sweat the wizard and the rogue. Together, they form an adventuring band. Hmm... how does Girard fit in this picture? Right, he is the ranger who is behind the Empire of Tears!!

Or maybe not. However, that's my branch of the epileptic trees for today, I suppose.

[Dr.Epic]

Maybe they're all really depressed in the Empire of Tears?

Their country is built around a swamp of sadness. Be careful if you ride your horse through it.

[RebelRogue]

Copy that for the german language.
Danish too. It seems to be an internationally used idiom by now.

[megabyter5]

I agreed with you, but this is the "find the underlying meaning forum" isn't it?

No, although that's a common misconception. This is, in fact, the "take a wild guess about hidden connections or future plot points" forum.

[veti]

I was also going to point out that on the map, it is in the order of the band name and not the speech (which is blood tears sweat). Moreover, and no offense meant to Churchill, I think the phrase "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" is more associated with the band than the speech in the US.

It doesn't have to be an either/or question. :smallsmile:

The band "Blood, Sweat & Tears" was formed in the 1960s, and I would bet a month's pay that its members knew about Churchill's speech when they chose the name. Churchill, in turn, would also have been familiar with the speeches of Teddy Roosevelt and others.

Each of them chose the phrase in the full knowledge that they're not coining something new, but rather building on something that already exists. They're trying to resonate with meanings and associations that were there before them. And in the process, they're building up the heritage of the phrase. That's how "culture" works.

See also: "Dire Straits", "Earth, Wind & Fire", "Rolling Stones", "Status Quo", "Judas Priest", "Black Sabbath"...

[BridgeCity]

It doesn't have to be an either/or question. :smallsmile:

The band "Blood, Sweat & Tears" was formed in the 1960s, and I would bet a month's pay that its members knew about Churchill's speech when they chose the name. Churchill, in turn, would also have been familiar with the speeches of Teddy Roosevelt and others.

Each of them chose the phrase in the full knowledge that they're not coining something new, but rather building on something that already exists. They're trying to resonate with meanings and associations that were there before them. And in the process, they're building up the heritage of the phrase. That's how "culture" works.

See also: "Dire Straits", "Earth, Wind & Fire", "Rolling Stones", "Status Quo", "Judas Priest", "Black Sabbath"...

This was exactly the point I was making.

[Sinfonian]

Copy that for the german language.

Back to topic, I find it likely that the three Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears are conncected. Tarquin and Malaak might be only two high level characters (Fighter and Cleric). Empire of Tears has the ranger and the bard, Empire of Sweat the wizard and the rogue. Together, they form an adventuring band. Hmm... how does Girard fit in this picture? Right, he is the ranger who is behind the Empire of Tears!!

Or maybe not. However, that's my branch of the epileptic trees for today, I suppose.

Give the man a cookie. In #758, he is shown to be (with the potential exception of what class went where) pretty much exactly correct. The Girard bit is still currently epileptic trees talk, but still!

[Onyavar]

Give the man a cookie. [...]

Thanks. I just combine some oddities: Adventurers usually travel in six, there are two secret leaders in EoB, there are three Empires of B/S/T very close to each other on that map in 698...

I guess others supposed so as well, but still, its such a good feeling to be right sometimes.

Now I'm looking for the reveal of the classes. I think the ion stone chick of EoS could very well be a wizard/mage/magic user class and the cat screams rogue. The EoT guys however don't look like bard and ranger, though...

Aaand I'd like to present a new prediction, namely that Tarquin plans to topple the Empress of Blood on occasion of this festival of his.

[Gift Jeraff]

So how about we call Tarquin's theoretical tri-empire of pseudo-peace "the Empires of Blood, Sweat, Tears, and Minimum Toil"?

[Theodoriph]

As a mild aside, I just noticed that the helmets of the Empire of Tears have the eyes slanted somewhat downward to make the soldiers appear sad, as opposed to Tarquin's helm which has the eyes slanted slightly upward.

I love the little details Rich puts in.

Edit: Also, Queen Shvitzer made me giggle.