[3.5e] Spellswipe Fist [PEACH]

[Zaraithe]

Hey Homebrewers! Forthcoming is my first attempt at homebrewing a PrC (so I apologize if there any newbie mistakes or etiquette violations), and I thought I would post it for public perusal.

A big disclaimer, this PrC was dreamed up out of some hair-brained scheme to combine two of my favorite classes, Monk and Spellthief, and was hastily generalized for other arcane casters, so there could be some things that are just utterly terrible and in need of reconsideration. I'm currently playtesting this in a campaign with a Spellthief 5/Monk 2 entry, but currently I'm only 9th level, so there's not much room for seeing the midlevel class features in action.

My goal is to make a PrC that makes a melee unarmed spellthief type character viable, and give spellthief as a class more options than Master Spellthief or 20 levels, just because I like the idea of the class being used for a more varied potential. I'm sure there's plenty wrong with this PrC, but I'm willing to tweak the class for what's best, whether that means nerfing it to all hell or buffing it because it turns out to be useless under more scrutinizing minds. Thank you for your time!

Spellswipe Fist

[Picture forthcoming]

"The currents of magic flow at my will."
-Garrett Eldrithev, Human Spellswipe Fist.


Becoming a Spellswipe Fist

The easiest route to Spellswipe Fist is through Spellthief and Monk, as this combination has the easiest time with the requirements. The class progresses their abilities to their full extent, though other martial-arcane class may enter through use of the Master Spellthief feat.

Prerequisites:
Skills: Knowledge Arcana 10 Ranks, Spellcraft 5 Ranks,
Feats: Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike
Spells:: Ability to cast 1st level spells as spellthief or 3rd level arcane spells otherwise
Sneak Attack: Sneak Attack +2d6
Other: Must be able to steal 2nd level spells

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills (4+Int Skill points per level): Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Disable Device, Hide, Jump, Knowledge Arcana, Move Silently, Listen, Profession, Open Lock, Spot, Search, Spellcraft, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device

Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells
1|+0|+0|+2|+2|Monk abilities, Spellthieving|
2|+1|+0|+3|+3|Aesthetic Spelltheft|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
3|+2|+1|+3|+3||+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
4|+3|+1|+4|+4|Spelltheft Strike|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
5|+3|+1|+4|+4||+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
6|+4|+2|+5|+5|Dispelling Strike|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
7|+5|+2|+5|+5|Spellnull Strike|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
8|+6|+2|+6|+6||+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
9|+6|+3|+6|+6|Improved Spelltheft Strikes|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
10|+7|+3|+7|+7|Spelltheft Flurry|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class

Spells: At every level but 1st, a Spellswipe Fist gains spells known/per day as if she had taken another level in a previous arcane caster class.

Spellthieving: Levels in Spellswipe Fist stack for determining the power of a spellthief's stealing abilities; the level of spell she can steal and hold, the amount of energy/spell resistance she can steal, the level of spell like abilities she can steal, and the level spell she can absorb. This ability does not grant the abilities of the spellthief, only progresses them. For example, a character with 5 levels in spellthief and 5 levels of this class steals spells, SLAs, spell effects, and energy resistance like a 10th level spellthief, but does not have the ability to absorb spells as a 10th leve spellthief would from the 7th spellthief level class ability. If you have no spellthief abilities, this ability does nothing.

Monk Abilities: Levels in Spellswipe Fist progress unarmed strike damage, unarmored speed bonus, unarmored AC bonus, number of stunning fist attempts, and flurry of blows. If a character has no levels in monk, they are granted abilities as a monk of their Spellswipe Fist level, though they do not gain their wisdom bonus to AC, only the additional AC bonus as a monk.

Ascetic Spelltheft: At 2nd level, a Spellswipe Fist gains Ascetic Mage (Cadv) as a bonus feat applied to their previous spellcasting class. Additionally, the Spellswipe Fist's Stunning Fist DC becomes Cha-based.

Spelltheft Strikes: At 4th level, a Spellswipe Fist may expend Stunning Fist attempts to activate spellthief abilities through touch attacks once per round without having sneak attack dice. These attacks deal the Spellswipe Fist's unarmed strike damage, and allow the Spellswipe Fist to steal spells, effects, spell-like abilities, and resistances from creatures normally immune, though sneak attack damage may also be forgone when dealing with creatures vulnerable to sneak attack. The Spellswipe Fist may expend a total of 1 Stunning Fist Attempt two class levels per attack to use different spellthief abilities. At 9th level, this extends to multiple attacks per round.

Dispelling Strike: At 6th level, a Spellswipe fist may expend a stunning fist attempt to perform an unarmed strike which also functions as a targeted Greater Dispel on their target. The target must succeed on a fortitude save equal to the Spellswipe fist's Stunning Fist DC or have their spell effects be dispelled and their magic items suppressed as if affected by a Greater Dispel Magic. The Spellswipe Fist's caster level is used for this attack.

Spellnull Strike: At 7th level, a Spellswipe Fist gains the ability to expend a Stunning Fist attempt to perform a spellnull strike. If an enemy fails a fortitude save equal to the Spellswipe Fist's stunning fist DC, If the Spellswipe Fist succeeds on an unarmed strike against their target, the enemy is surrounded by a skin-tight antimagic field which prevents any casting for 1d4 rounds. At 10 level this time increases to 1d8 rounds.

Spelltheft Flurry: At 10th level, a Spellswipe Fist gets the ability to perform a full attack with flurry of blows and channel spellthief, including Spellnull and Dispelling Strike abilities through each attack without needing sneak attack or stunning fist attempts, though normal sneak attacks or stunning fists may be applied for additional uses of thieving. The Spellswipe Fist may use any number of any spellthief abilities that they possess, but they may not store more spell levels than they are otherwise capable. This ability functions twice per day.

***

Some considerations I have include floundering about the BAB/Spellcasting progression of this class (IE, up it to Full BAB and drop spellcasting to 8/10), and about giving a fort save on Spellthreft strikes. Part of me wonders if just expending the Stunning Fist strike is enough resource dedication to leave the fort save requirement out. Of course, this is all assuming that my fear that the prestige class is too lackluster are unfounded. :P

[Zaraithe]

I hate to do a tasteless 'bump' of sorts on threads like this, but I'm genuinely curious about what people think of this idea (although, I suppose there could just be so many things wrong with the idea that it doesn't warrant a reply). :/

[Shyftir]

Usually when they go unnoticed it's because they come off as entirely reasonable and non-broken.

Most here feel that giving something monk abilities doesn't matter too much because they feel monk is very underpowered. So the question becomes is this better than enlightened fist which is the other monk/arcane spell casting progression class.

Comparison:

Enlightened Fist is 8/10 spellcasting, you have 9/10.
+1 for you...

You have 5 special abilities, E-Fist has 7
-1 for you

You increase spell thieving powers, e-fist does not.
+2 for you

same hit dice, both improve monk abilities, same skill points, same saves -0-

E-fist has a better BAB. -1 for you


Over all I think your class is a bit better though you might switch the BaB for a better progression and go 8/10 on casting just for fitting in with published stuff better. Basically the class is pretty good I think that you might find non-monk spell-thief/sorcerers picking this up and advancing their sorc casting just because monk abilities are a nice help for squishy types.

[Zaraithe]

Thanks Shyftir! That breakdown was really useful, and a good way a of looking at things. :)

I was actually playing with increasing the BAB to full and leaving the spellcasting at 9/10 to equalize it with some of the other gish PrCs, like Knight of the Raven or (the real inspiration for the framework) Sacred Fist. I thought it 'd be a bit more 'balanced' than Sacred Fist because it would be full BAB and only 9/10 where most people interpret Sacred fist to be Full BAB and 10/10 casting (doesn't the latest version of CD confirm this?).

Anyway, most people I play with consider Sacred Fist to be a crazy exception with little tradeoff, so maybe 8/10 would be better. 9/10 was also a remnant of when this class was ONLY a Spellthief/Monk class, and I feel that even offering full casting for just spellthieves wouldn't be game-breaking given their stunted casting. Still, 9/10 seems best when other arcane classes come into the fray.

At the same time, I feel like moving to 8/10 would be appropriate if I had one or two other special abilities to add to the class, so that there were less 'dead' levels; since the purpose of the class is to be a mage's worst nightmare at upper levels, it's hard for me to think of things that would be more thematic (bonus mage slayer feats minus CL hit seem odd, for example). If anyone has any ideas, feel free. :)

It could be that I'm not very far into it, but in the current game that I'm playing it feels like the class is slow to get off the ground a bit, but it's not something I'm too worried about...

EDIT: Clarified some language in Monk Abilities, Spelltheft Strikes, Dispelling strike, and Spellnull Strike.

[Icarusification]

Greetings, o'Creative One! :smallsigh:

I've just recently talked my GM into allowing me to use your Spellswipe Fist for my Spellthief/Monk/Warblade. :smallsmile: I must say that when I was surfing carelessly through the Playground, I didn't have a slightest idea that soon I might find the very first prestige class in which I'd like to take all 10 levels. :smallamused:
Praised be thy work.

Albeit it will take some time before I'll be able to take it, so I must ask you, how is the playtest going? Any changes you've made or thought about? The full BAB variant seems fair enough, don't let those filthy Sacred Fists with their spells and fighting prowess have all the fun of four attacks! We are the spellthieves. Peter Petrelli meets Chuck Norris. There can be no more fun than that.

Anyway I was thinking about some special abilities to fill these dead levels. The one that immediately pop up in my mind was a cousin of the Absorb Spell (Immediate Casting) spellthief ability. Something like "hit him, rob him, in the face with his own spell in one flow-like move." To avoid overpowering it propably should have some limit like x per day or per stunning fist attempt. And it propalby should be a 10th level ability, since Spellthieves get the Absorb Spell version at 20th level.

The most powerfull-yet-thematic-and-cool ability I could think of was an ability to steal the entire magical potencial (i.e. the whole spellcasting ability) of an enemy spellcaster for 1 round. Although it's just a scratch of an idea. It isn't much better than Spellnull Strike, which prevents the caster from using his spells for much longer time.

Again, great work! :smallwink:

[Zaraithe]

Thank you for your compliments! It's good to see that someone else likes the idea of an unarmed spellthief character (I personally got the idea after watching a cartoon, but <_< >_>)

The playtest has gone fairly meh so far, but it's because of my build more than anything. I've been using Pechvarry's Expanded Spellthief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169808) in conjunction with this, it's a very good strengthening of the class IMO, so my build has changed from Monk 2/Spellthief 5/ Spellswipe Fist 10/?? 3 to Monk 2/ Spellthief 7/ Spellswipe Fist 10 ??1.

Right now the playtest game is at level 12, so Monk 2/Spellthief 7/ Spellswipe 3. The full features of the class haven't come into play yet, but I have made some changes to the class already. At one point, going multiple levels into the class wasn't making any headway (it was like playing a lower-powered spellthief that couldn't steal all the spells an equilevel spellthief could), and the early levels were feeling kind of empty, so I did modify the class for my uses. I was really tempted to add a skill that let you recoup monk levels for spellstealing (think a retroactive Master Spellthief, but for monk), but that lowered the opportunity cost for entering the PrC so low (there was practically no drawback) that I decided against it.

I gave the class Full BAB, reduced the casting by 1 level, and, most importantly, moved some of the class features up a level. The remaining dead levels were filled with (thematically?) sneak attack dice, mainly because the campaign I'm testing this in is already fairly high-powered.

The one ability I'm not sure about is the Greater Arcane Sight, which will function as the spellthief ability (use as a swift action Cha modifier times/day), to facilitate effect-stealing.

Overall, this version becomes significantly more dense than the first version, though I worry it may be *too* dense. The only reason I'm not particularly worried about it for my campaign is that the characters are all fairly high powered, so it stands to fit well; for a normal campaign, I'm not sure if it will fit.

Here's the improvements table-ified.

Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells
1|+1|+0|+2|+2|Monk abilities, Spellthieving|
2|+2|+0|+3|+3|Aesthetic Spelltheft|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
3|+3|+1|+3|+3|Spelltheft Strike|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
4|+4|+1|+4|+4|Extra Damage +1d6|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
5|+5|+1|+4|+4|Dispelling Strike|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
6|+6|+2|+5|+5|Spellnull Strike|
7|+7|+2|+5|+5|Greater Arcane Sight|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
8|+8|+2|+6|+6|Extra Damage +2d6|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
9|+9|+3|+6|+6|Improved Spelltheft Strikes|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class
10|+10|+3|+7|+7|Spelltheft Flurry|+1 Existing arcane spellcaster class

[Zaraithe]

Anyway I was thinking about some special abilities to fill these dead levels. The one that immediately pop up in my mind was a cousin of the Absorb Spell (Immediate Casting) spellthief ability. Something like "hit him, rob him, in the face with his own spell in one flow-like move." To avoid overpowering it propably should have some limit like x per day or per stunning fist attempt. And it propalby should be a 10th level ability, since Spellthieves get the Absorb Spell version at 20th level.

I really like this idea; I think it would fit well as the 8th level ability, but only have it working for Cha modifier/day, rather than infinitely like the default spellthief ability.

My only concern comes from builds that take, say, the long route to getting into the class, and instead go something like Spellthief 10/Spellswipe Fist 10 with the intent on grabbing Stunning Fist and Improved Unarmed strike as regular feats. I don't want to pigeon-hole people into HAVING to take Monk levels if they don't want to (since it should be multi-build friendly), but this would essentially allow people to double-dip in the absorb-spell ability; maybe they can get some kind of bonus on the caster-level check if they already have the immediate casting ability? I'm not sure.

Another note, this PrC has essentially been designed for standard monk/Spellthief entry with some modified stuff for generality. I'm not sure how its abilities interact if, say, you use a class other than monk to enter, or if you use Master Spellthief to enter it; part of me says the requirements will attenuate most risk of ridiculous, but I'll admit it's something I haven't explored.

[stainboy]

Wow.... Spellnull Strike. I like that you've built a gish PrC for two hybridy base classes and it still comes out with a strong role as a caster-killer.

The power level looks about right, given you're working from a 5-way MAD and two underpowered classes.

About alternate progressions, even if you get Stunning Fist without monk levels you still only have 1 use/day per 4 levels, and half the class abilities rely on Stunning Fist. At least one monk level seems basically required so you can continue your monk progression for uses/day. (E: deleted some text because I missed the requirement to steal 2nd levelspells.)

[Ziegander]

I would increase the BAB to full and leave the casting at 9/10. Remember, this isn't a Wiz/Sorc PrC, not by a long shot. Why would a Wiz/Sorc enter this class when doing so would cost them FIVE caster levels at the very least? To enter as a Wizard your build would have to be Spellthief 1/Monk 1/Rogue 3/Wizard 5. On top of that you have to WASTE three feats that could have been used for being more awesomely Wizardly (because let's be serious about this, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Master Spellthief literally do absolutely nothing good for you). With full BAB and 9/10 casting you don't even get 9th level spells, you don't get 7th level spells until 18th level, and you don't get 8th level spells until 20th level. Your base attack is 14, maybe 15 at 20th. None of the class features you get from this class are effective for a Wizard and they have MUCH better options for PrCs to take for gishing if they wish.

[stainboy]

Actually you need Spellthief level 4 no matter what you do because of the steal 2nd level spells prereq. I made the same mistake before I edited above. So every "good" point of entry will be Monk 1 / Spellthief 5 / Something Else 1.

So yeah, if someone did make that Something Else 1 a class with a faster casting progression, it wouldn't break anything.

[Icarusification]

Greetings again! :smallwink:

I must say I agree with Ziegander that there's no need for such concern. Even if you could have, say, Spellthief 5/Monk 1/Sorcerer 1/Spellswipe Fist 10/?, you would end up having only 10-11 effective sorcerer levels, which grants you ability to cast 5th level spells. It wouldn't be worse to take a Trickster spellthief variant, then boost Sneak Attack to +2d6 with Unseen Seer and enjoy having 6th level spells from the combined Sorc/Bard spell lists. Master Spellthief could boost caster level even more, at least for the sorcerer variant.

So, is it good? Yeah. Is it fun? Hell, yeah! :smallbiggrin: Is it overpowered? Nah, seen worse. And not in the hands of a gish, anyway. :smallamused:


My only concern comes from builds that take, say, the long route to getting into the class, and instead go something like Spellthief 10/Spellswipe Fist 10 with the intent on grabbing Stunning Fist and Improved Unarmed strike as regular feats. I don't want to pigeon-hole people into HAVING to take Monk levels if they don't want to (since it should be multi-build friendly), but this would essentially allow people to double-dip in the absorb-spell ability; maybe they can get some kind of bonus on the caster-level check if they already have the immediate casting ability? I'm not sure.

Same here, having double Absorb Spell ability (which means being at least spellthief 12/spellswipe fist 8) leaves you with having only 5 daily uses of your spellswipe fist abilities. 5 uses in total. It's doable, but not necessarily worth the effort. I don't want to restraint myself from using both my Spelltheft and Spellnull Strikes in every major encounter! :smallfrown: And if I have already agreed to give up Absorb Spell by entering the class with a level in monk, then there's no feel of loss on my part. Being spellthief is fun already, especially when you get to fight warlocks. No Eldritch Blast for you today, darling. :smalltongue:

Edit: Allright, I didn't take the Extra Stunning feat into account. But I still don't think it makes the tradeoff profitable. There are much better feats to take.