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View Full Version : I Hate My Dm!!! <3.5>



Tokuhara
2010-11-12, 01:26 PM
So, in our semi-epic game, where we are all playing different deities who've lost their divinity, we found out that Asmodeus had siphoned all of the divinity into himself to become a true god.

Here's the Party BTW:

Me: Boccob
DM's/GF: Wee Jas
DM's Friend: Thor
My Friend: Bahamut
Adam: Olidamara
Former DM: Corellon

The DM said this was a "fair" encouter: 3 Pit Fiend Blood Fiends and his hamatula Blood Fiend spawn

needless to say, it wasn't as fair as he claimed. Teleport at Will is truly unfair, making my Greater Orb of Force spells and Wee Jas's Maximized Widened Empowered Twin Ray'd Disrupt Undead a moot point. If it wasn't for Thor (a phrase I never thought I'd say), it'd've been a TPK...

So here's the question: When has your DM thrown an encounter he claimed was "fair," when it clearly wasn't...

Sipex
2010-11-12, 01:30 PM
This is situational.

Does the DM STILL think the encounter was fair? Some aren't aware of how overpowering a certain ability is.

Also I've not done that before but I have made encounters which I thought were a "Challenging" encounter which my players proceeded to strip down and step on with no more than a well placed daily power.

Caphi
2010-11-12, 01:36 PM
Teleport at Will is truly unfair, making my Greater Orb of Force spells and Wee Jas's Maximized Widened Empowered Twin Ray'd Disrupt Undead a moot point.

When did "at will" come to mean "as an immediate action"?

Tokuhara
2010-11-12, 01:38 PM
When did "at will" come to mean "as an immediate action"?

It gets 2/round... So my spells never connected, neither her's as well. They teleported out of the way

Il_Vec
2010-11-12, 01:40 PM
One level 11 Sorcerer/Elemental Savant and one level 10 chain tripper horizon walker

Versus

One level 13 Dread Necromancer
2 augmented Troll Skeletons
6 Ghouls
6 Ghasts
4 Shadows
2 Greater Shadows
12 Human Skeletons
4 Salamander Skeletons

Yep, we died alright. I think maybe just the shadow was enough to kill us.

mucat
2010-11-12, 01:57 PM
It gets 2/round... So my spells never connected, neither her's as well. They teleported out of the way

That doesn't make sense. Again, "at will" doesn't mean immedite action; they can't teleport out of the way of a spell. Unless your dm has changed the ability into an immediate action...in which case, fine, they can.

Either way, why are you griping so much? You and your party mate found that your spells couldn't connect...and it sounds like you just kept trying them, even after seeing that the devils were essentially immune? Switch tactics, fer gods' sake. It sounds like you had at least one party member who could hurt the enemies, so focus on buffing and supporting that person.

In any case, actually getting mad at someone because an encounter was too hard, is ridiculous. Frankly, I would not invite you to a game if that's the way you normally behave.

Tokuhara
2010-11-12, 02:01 PM
That doesn't make sense. Again, "at will" doesn't mean immedite action; they can't teleport out of the way of a spell. Unless your dm has changed the ability into an immediate action...in which case, fine, they can.

Either way, why are you griping so much? You and your party mate found that your spells couldn't connect...and it sounds like you just kept trying them, even after seeing that the devils were essentially immune? Switch tactics, fer gods' sake. It sounds like you had at least one party member who could hurt the enemies, so focus on buffing and supporting that person.

In any case, actually getting mad at someone because an encounter was too hard, is ridiculous. Frankly, I would not invite you to a game if that's the way you normally behave.

In actuallity, I complained for a legit reason: We swapped tactics to the point of me resorting to swinging my staff, and then they grappled me and Wee Jas and all but drained our CON scores. However, Thor hit them in the back of the head with his hammer and with most of us at 1Con, we survived. Thor claimed is was an "easy encounter"

as for the complaint, remember, this was a 25th level encounter vs 5 15th level PCs

Fiery Diamond
2010-11-12, 02:03 PM
Just to add my voice to Mucat's, I think your DM misunderstood what "at will" means. At will does not mean "as an immediate action." In general, it means "as the same action that it would otherwise be, but can be used an indefinite (infinite except for the fact that there's a finite length of time) number of times per day." So most "at will" abilities are STANDARD actions, which means once a round (unless the creature has access to quickening it's SLAs, but that has special rules) and only on the creature's turn. Some at will abilities would be swift actions, move actions, or (correct me if I'm wrong) even full-round actions. The only time an at will ability is as an immediate action is if it specifically says so or it is something that is normally an immediate action, like featherfall.

Pinnacle
2010-11-12, 02:11 PM
as for the complaint, remember, this was a 25th level encounter vs 5 15th level PCs

Difficult to remember something we never knew.

Kaww
2010-11-12, 02:33 PM
So, in our semi-epic game, where we are all playing different deities who've lost their divinity


Thor claimed is was an "easy encounter"
...
as for the complaint, remember, this was a 25th level encounter vs 5 15th level PCs


Difficult to remember something we never knew.

Your original statement didn't indicate you were anywhere near lvl 15. So +1 for Pinnacle. Also I don't need to remind you that CR system is poorly designed. That said I don't think I would throw such an encounter at my party. As a player I enjoy challenges. And if Thor is any judge of encounters it wasn't too difficult...

Yukitsu
2010-11-12, 02:40 PM
So here's the question: When has your DM thrown an encounter he claimed was "fair," when it clearly wasn't...

Real conversation with myself and a no-longer DM:

Me: This random encounter is retarded.
DM: I don't know what you're complaining about.
Me: We've done just a shade over 200 points of damage to it, and it's not dead.
DM: It has DR.
Me: I know what template you're using, without DR, it would have taken over 370 points of damage. We're only level 7 here.
DM: Well, I rolled for its hit points instead of using the book values.
Me: No you didn't. The book value is only 85, but the max it can possibly have is 125.
DM: Well you guys do too much damage anyway, so I increased it.
Me: It's a random freaking encounter, and you already took all our gear away.
DM: Well, I guess you should have run away instead then.
Me: It moves 4 times faster than any of us.

Needless to say, just quit games with bad DMs.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-12, 02:42 PM
Anticipate Teleportation, 3rd level spell, SpC.

Your DM did basically fudge the abilities of an encounter 10 levels above you, but you still should have been able to defeat it.

Kaww
2010-11-12, 02:44 PM
Real conversation with myself and a no-longer DM:

Me: This random encounter is retarded.
DM: I don't know what you're complaining about.
Me: We've done just a shade over 200 points of damage to it, and it's not dead.
DM: It has DR.
Me: I know what template you're using, without DR, it would have taken over 370 points of damage. We're only level 7 here.
DM: Well, I rolled for its hit points instead of using the book values.
Me: No you didn't. The book value is only 85, but the max it can possibly have is 125.
DM: Well you guys do too much damage anyway, so I increased it.
Me: It's a random freaking encounter, and you already took all our gear away.
DM: Well, I guess you should have run away instead then.
Me: It moves 4 times faster than any of us.

Needless to say, just quit games with bad DMs.

How long did you play with him/her?

I had a similar DM, the game lasted 6 sessions or so...

gallagher
2010-11-12, 02:49 PM
How long did you play with him/her?

I had a similar DM, the game lasted 6 sessions or so...

i had a DM who didnt care what skillpoints we had where. for example

DM: Roll a move silently check
Sneaky dude: 42
DM: WHAT? what did you roll?
Sneaky Dude: a 7?
DM: oh, then he hears you, roll initiative

that kind of lacks what the DM does, but we have had multiple arguments about how yes, buying a magic item will make it easier for me to do something. for this hide check in particular, the DM ignored the high DEX, the various gear of elvenkind, and masterwork tools. no, he just cares about your random roll.

i am just now wondering if he cared about the skillpoints in his monsters and bad guys... because in this situation we could be level 20 and get hosed by some level 10 rogues who skillmonkeyed it out

Kaww
2010-11-12, 02:55 PM
You know people you shouldn't post things like this. It makes us think we are being to kind to our players... Kidding, but wow, I didn't think DMing went that much south... When we play you tolerate them for a while and then you ditch them when you realize you shouldn't tolerate. Start DMing yourself if you have a party and no DM... Or have two/three DMs/players rotating, or something...

Tyndmyr
2010-11-12, 02:56 PM
Needless to say, just quit games with bad DMs.

This.

Last night, I tried a new campaign with a DM that I really should have known better about. However, it was D20 modern, a system I have a soft spot for. Here's how it started.

DM: You're all in a bank.
Us: A bank? What are we doing there?
DM: None of you know each other, then a flashbang rolls in. Roll fort saves.
*two of the others pass*
DM: You're unconcious.
Players who passed: Hey, we passed, what's that do?
DM: You're laying on the ground in pain. Guy walk around and yell "hey, these two are still concious". They kick you in the head. You're now unconcious.
Players: ...ok.
DM: You all wake up in a metal box.
Talky guy: Whats in it?
DM: Nothing special, it's a shipping container, with a locked door.
Strong guy: I try to shove it open.
Us: We'll help.
One natural 20 and two assists later:
Me: Hey, do we get the usual starting gear?
DM: If you bought gear, it was taken away from you. You wont get it back.
Me: ...never mind.
DM: It doesn't move. A radio turns on and tells you that you all can choose to play a game(choosing no results in staying in the box). You must return to civilization using the enclosed GPS, following the waypoints.
.....


It only got worse from there on out, as we were issued sticks for weapons, and got to spent time fixing up the house of the DMPC.

Oh yeah, I already quit that campaign. There will be no further chances for this DM. He's failed three times already.

Dralnu
2010-11-12, 03:02 PM
Woah, a battle where the spellcaster's single tactic fails but the melee type saves the day? What a terrible DM! Melee should never have a situation where they surpass their more magical peers!

In all seriousness, unless the DM had to fiat his way to give you a victory, this sounds totally fine. CRs are merely guidelines that entirely depend on the party's power level, which is usually much more optimized than the developers had planned. Judging battles can be very difficult and depend on many factors beyond just statblocks. Did one side get a surprise round? Which side has a terrain or tactical advantage? If the DM goes a little overboard during one encounter it's probably an honest mistake. If every encounter is a TPK then you have a problem. If every encounter is almost fatal then I call that a damn good fight!

Of course, if he's fudging game mechanics, then you should bring it up to him. Unless he's an ass, it was just an honest mistake.

In the end, if you hate your DM over one encounter, you should probably quit and find another DM / try DM'ing yourself.

Frosty
2010-11-12, 03:03 PM
This.

Last night, I tried a new campaign with a DM that I really should have known better about. However, it was D20 modern, a system I have a soft spot for. Here's how it started.

DM: You're all in a bank.
Us: A bank? What are we doing there?
DM: None of you know each other, then a flashbang rolls in. Roll fort saves.
*two of the others pass*
DM: You're unconcious.
Players who passed: Hey, we passed, what's that do?
DM: You're laying on the ground in pain. Guy walk around and yell "hey, these two are still concious". They kick you in the head. You're now unconcious.
Players: ...ok.
DM: You all wake up in a metal box.
Talky guy: Whats in it?
DM: Nothing special, it's a shipping container, with a locked door.
Strong guy: I try to shove it open.
Us: We'll help.
One natural 20 and two assists later:
Me: Hey, do we get the usual starting gear?
DM: If you bought gear, it was taken away from you. You wont get it back.
Me: ...never mind.
DM: It doesn't move. A radio turns on and tells you that you all can choose to play a game(choosing no results in staying in the box). You must return to civilization using the enclosed GPS, following the waypoints.
.....


It only got worse from there on out, as we were issued sticks for weapons, and got to spent time fixing up the house of the DMPC.

Oh yeah, I already quit that campaign. There will be no further chances for this DM. He's failed three times already.

This sounds like the opening cinematics to a computer FPS game. Waypoints...heh...I'm surprised you didn't have a HUD with a health and ammo display. It sounded like the PCS have zero choice in this game.

Tyndmyr
2010-11-12, 03:07 PM
Sticks don't have ammo. :smallfrown: However, we did have to manage small amounts of ammo for our crappy guns once aquired, and health kits were used as health potions. So, it literally did work that way.

Not that these rules are actually part of the system. D20 modern pretty much tells you directly not to do any of that. I really hate when people advertise a game as x system, and you find out it's really "DM's highly customized game of fiat".

grimbold
2010-11-12, 03:20 PM
my DM enjoys torturing stupidity which i argue is rping. So through extenuating circumstances the barbarian made hundreds of zombies start chasing down our level 4 party.

about 200 zombies of CR 1/2-4

4 characters

we cleared about 25 before we fell over dead.

gallagher
2010-11-12, 03:26 PM
my DM enjoys torturing stupidity which i argue is rping. So through extenuating circumstances the barbarian made hundreds of zombies start chasing down our level 4 party.

about 200 zombies of CR 1/2-4

4 characters

we cleared about 25 before we fell over dead.

this reminds me of the time that we had a 4 person party made entirely of clerics

we had our melee cleric with persisted divine strength and righteous might, our buffing cleric, our "arcane" cleric who had the magic domain and a bunch of scrolls and wands for our perusal, and our sneaky cleric, who would continuously summon orangutans to open doors and such

Optimator
2010-11-12, 03:29 PM
Boccob didn't remember to prep Anticipate Teleport, Greater?

RebelRogue
2010-11-12, 03:32 PM
Real conversation with myself and a no-longer DM:

Me: This random encounter is retarded.
DM: I don't know what you're complaining about.
Me: We've done just a shade over 200 points of damage to it, and it's not dead.
DM: It has DR.
Me: I know what template you're using, without DR, it would have taken over 370 points of damage. We're only level 7 here.
DM: Well, I rolled for its hit points instead of using the book values.
Me: No you didn't. The book value is only 85, but the max it can possibly have is 125.
DM: Well you guys do too much damage anyway, so I increased it.
Me: It's a random freaking encounter, and you already took all our gear away.
DM: Well, I guess you should have run away instead then.
Me: It moves 4 times faster than any of us.

Needless to say, just quit games with bad DMs.
While this does not sound as particularly good DMing, using knowledge of existing stat blocks as an argument like this isn't exactly a classy move either! Let the DM do his thing, even if he doesn't follow all rules to a tee; as long as it's a fun and exciting game, it should all be good (which this most probably wasn't, BTW)

grimbold
2010-11-12, 03:34 PM
my DM enjoys torturing stupidity which i argue is rping. So through extenuating circumstances the barbarian made hundreds of zombies start chasing down our level 4 party.

about 200 zombies of CR 1/2-4

4 characters

we cleared about 25 before we fell over dead.

kestrel404
2010-11-12, 03:46 PM
I've totally thrown the "army of zombies" at my PCs before. You know what they did?

They walked away at a brisk but unhurried pace. Because armies of zombies are SLOW. I even had the zombies move intelligently until they left the range of the necromancer's control (he had an 'area effect control undead' ability rather than a limit to HD, to make the army idea work).

So unless your zombies can RUN (which D&D zombies cannot do by normal rules), dealing with zombies is EASY for a level 4 party.

ThirdEmperor
2010-11-12, 03:47 PM
I played with a DM who had no idea what the rules were, but refused to admit it. Actual conversation:

DM: Okay, you're behind all the other characters, so you'll have to wait till they've moved out of the way to attack.
Me: But you can move through ally's squares.
DM: No you can't.
Me: Fine, seeing as the corridor is 10 feet wide and there's only people on the right side, I move one square to the right then move towardsn the villain, firing a eldritch blast once I get in range.
DM: You can't take a five foot step, then move.
Me: I'm not taking a five foot step, it's all one move.
DM: You can't change direction while moving.
Me: I think you're thinking of charging. I'm not charging.
DM: No, I mean you can't change direction while moving.
Me: Yes, you can, it's in the book and I've changed directions mid-move before and you never said anything.
DM: No it isn't, it says in the book you cannot change direction while moving, and that never happened.
Me: The villian is on top of a spiral staircase! How am I supposed to climb that if I can't change direction! Look, it says right here, in the book, and you've never mentioned a single house-rule about this.
DM: Fine.
Me: I move into range and eldritch blast the villian.
DM: He's immune.

Tharck
2010-11-12, 03:57 PM
I had a DM who made the Frost Giant have Absorption 5 Fire because my fire shield was killing him when striking the melee and he wanted a few extra rounds to beat some face (killing a PC in the process.)

We come to find out he got that 5 Fire from sleeping with some random Frost Giant Girl...

Frosty
2010-11-12, 04:24 PM
Sticks don't have ammo. :smallfrown: However, we did have to manage small amounts of ammo for our crappy guns once aquired, and health kits were used as health potions. So, it literally did work that way.

Not that these rules are actually part of the system. D20 modern pretty much tells you directly not to do any of that. I really hate when people advertise a game as x system, and you find out it's really "DM's highly customized game of fiat".
Some customization is ok. Extreme railroading is not.

Maybe the DM wanted to play Far Cry or Crysis or Bioshock in a social environment or something :smallbiggrin:

darbythegambler
2010-11-12, 04:51 PM
DM once threw 4 mimics, a mohrg, 2 large blue dragons, 2 umbral hulk zombies, 10 humanoid skeletons, a minotaur zombie, a wyvern riding wizard, 8 ogre warriors, 3 statue things that i can't remember what the hell they are, and about 20 goblin rogues. Level of the party? 2... DM's reasoning behind the hell? "It's a boss battle"... I would've hated him if it weren't for the fact that: 1. He allowed us to "save" the game (he would've allowed us to restart if we all died). 2. I didn't know it was a nigh impossible challenge at the time (this was early in my D&D career) 3. the DM allowed some diplomacy cheese that allowed us to get one of the goblins to fight for us. 4. There were about 8 of us playing and it was a gestalt campaign anyway. and 5. We won anyway, mainly due to severe enemy clumsiness...

DM's learned his lesson now, that lesson? we're all better lucky than good :smallamused:

RagnaroksChosen
2010-11-12, 05:09 PM
Once played a game where our group was up against
10 1st level kobold sorcerers and 1 2nd level sorcerer

The party was some where around 6(so like 5-8).

Now normally this is only semi intimidating.
However, All of them seemed to have shield cast(pre combat they jumped us)
They all also seemed to have magic missle.
Our caster didn't have a shield spell.
And on top of that the 2nd level sorcer seemed to have 3-4 celestial monkeys that where throwing alchemist fire.
Needless to say we lost a party member a round. We took out 2 before going down.


O did i mention we where in a open field.

Beelzebub1111
2010-11-12, 05:10 PM
Just this Wednesday: 60 ogres and 5 ogre magi. Three of the players (Me included) lost our souls to some freaky mirror that made us undead, The clerics that were made undead (both of us) couldn't use our specialty priest abilities.
We beat them.
The lich that was controling them comes down from his tower to see what the hell just happened. He commands the Undeadified players to attack the living ones.
Party wizard sets his Hat of Difference to Fighter (magic item that lets him have different character classes and splits XP with them) and automatically destroys the Lich with a Mace of Disruption.
Had he NOT done that we would all be dead from a Chain Lightning.


We are 8th-9th level.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-12, 05:58 PM
This is why I always carry Gate scrolls on level 14+ characters (sometimes lower if I optimized CL). So that, you know, I can just summon a horde of angels.

Jair Barik
2010-11-12, 06:06 PM
This is why I always carry Gate scrolls on level 14+ characters (sometimes lower if I optimized CL). So that, you know, I can just summon a horde of angels.

You could use a BMX....
Or you could just summon a horde of angels :smallamused:

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-12, 06:14 PM
You could use a BMX....
Or you could just summon a horde of angels :smallamused:

Really, I can summon them, it's no problem.

lord pringle
2010-11-12, 08:10 PM
Oh evil DMing.
Me as the DM: The brave adventurers are walking out of town 10 wights jump them. The part Mystic Theurge lost a level and the paladin's horse and two farmers were killed. Bad game for the paladin.

With me as a player: The half vampire accidentally drank angel's blood that drove him mad. He was the one character who wasn't racially prejudiced against my character as well.

Yukitsu
2010-11-12, 08:27 PM
How long did you play with him/her?

I had a similar DM, the game lasted 6 sessions or so...

I think like, 3 sessions. I'm pretty good at seeing the signs.

Eldariel
2010-11-12, 08:43 PM
Really, I can summon them, it's no problem.

But...how does he contribute with his BMX then?

Zeta Kai
2010-11-12, 08:44 PM
I've told this story on the forums multiple times before, but it is highly relevant here, so what the hay:

My very first experience with D&D was a one-on-one session with my friend Cory as DM. It was 2E, & I rolled up a female half-elf rogue, 1st level with above-average scores. I had only the standard starting gear in that first session, & I was walking down a forest path. I came across a basilisk in my way, which attacked me. I fought back, but it was impossible to hurt with my stats. I made my first save against its stone gaze, but it tried again & I failed the second save. My 1st-level female half-elf rogue was turned to stone.

Me: So, what next?
DM: Nothing. You're dead.
Me: That's it.
DM: Yeah. That's it. You died.
Me: So, uh, how'd I do?
DM: Honestly, not that well.

I never played with him again, & it took years before I gave D&D another chance. I have since learned that my first encounter back then was completely unfair & out of my league, & I was being railroaded into a Gygaxian game where if I didn't do exactly what the DM wanted me too, then I was toast.

Whenever I run a game in my homebrew setting, & the PCs go through a forest, I always have my players encounter a lone statue on a deserted path. The statue is of a young elven female. They never learn her name, & they never free her from her prison, but I think that's for the best. I just have her there to remember her. I never forgot my first time.

hangedman1984
2010-11-12, 09:10 PM
Whenever I run a game in my homebrew setting, & the PCs go through a forest, I always have my players encounter a lone statue on a deserted path. The statue is of a young elven female. They never learn her name, & they never free her from her prison, but I think that's for the best. I just have her there to remember her. I never forgot my first time.

That is so beautiful and haunting

nihilism
2010-11-12, 10:55 PM
meh, i think a lot of players get annoyed when dms make the game remotely challenging. They read the rules and realize they should never lose a hit point and that they technically should have acquired the wealth of empires by 2nd level.


i never play with those pcs

admittedly a lot of the stories were legitimately bad dm'ing.

however in the first example, if it weren't for the dm's deliberate rule misinterpretation (bad pc's do this too) the encounter would have been a pushover.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-12, 10:59 PM
meh, i think a lot of players get annoyed when dms make the game remotely challenging. They read the rules and realize they should never lose a hit point and that they technically should have acquired the wealth of empires by 2nd level.


i never play with those pcs

admittedly a lot of the stories were legitimately bad dm'ing.

however in the first example, if it weren't for the dm's deliberate rule misinterpretation (bad pc's do this too) the encounter would have been a pushover.

This combined with your chosen username is all sorts of irony, y'know.:smallcool:

More seriously - how does a CR 25 fight (3 CR20+ monsters) against a group of lvl15 PCs equal a 'pushover', even without their 'Abrupt Jaunt +9001" rules goof?

Kaww
2010-11-12, 11:09 PM
To be honest the OP didn't give any details on the builds. It might have been really easy. The party consists of six players, all are deities, we just freely assume which are their builds. My guess is that they are rater overpowered for their lvl, DM knew this and set up the encounter... The fact that one player claims that it was an easy encounter goes in the DMs favor...

The Glyphstone
2010-11-12, 11:13 PM
To be honest the OP didn't give any details on the builds. It might have been really easy. The party consists of six players, all are deities, we just freely assume which are their builds. My guess is that they are rater overpowered for their lvl, DM knew this and set up the encounter... The fact that one player claims that it was an easy encounter goes in the DMs favor...

Ex-deities, technically - he says the plot was around deities who have lost their divine abilities. They could just be ordinary characters, with the 'gods' part being fluff alone...and the fact that the character who apparently killed them all claimed it was 'easy' says nothing as to the DM being right or wrong.

Urpriest
2010-11-12, 11:18 PM
To be honest the OP didn't give any details on the builds. It might have been really easy. The party consists of six players, all are deities, we just freely assume which are their builds. My guess is that they are rater overpowered for their lvl, DM knew this and set up the encounter... The fact that one player claims that it was an easy encounter goes in the DMs favor...

Brief clarification: one CHARACTER claimed it was an easy encounter. That character was Thor. For some reason I can't imagine Thor, god of thunder and manliness, saying "wow, that was really tough. I really had a lot of trouble there."

The player could have had this opinion as well, but this was not made clear.

fortesama
2010-11-12, 11:22 PM
This whole thread reminds me of our groups 1st time in D&D... at least the pnp variety. This was also the DMs first time DMing this system. Minor confusion with Neverwinter Nights rules and the pnp version but wasn't that bad otherwise as far as that goes. The problem with our first campaign was that we regularly ran into wizards high-leveled enough to spam chain lightning

... against a level 2 party. For some odd reason, the dice kept rolling 1s and 2s whenever our enemies roll and the party consistently made their reflex saves and rolled mostly high for everything else so we didn't lose anyone. It took around 6 sessions before the DM learned to tone down the overleveled casters a bit where the dice suddenly began to become more "fair" for both sides. On the plus side, we consistently gain plenty of xp.

I also had my share of miscalculated difficulty setting when I ran a sidequest of sorts filled with all kinds of what were effectively save-or-die traps... against a level 3 party.

Doomboy911
2010-11-12, 11:36 PM
It's simple swimming pool logic.
They splashed you well go splash them back.

Susano-wo
2010-11-13, 02:21 AM
I will echo people's points about the abrupt jaunt+9001 issue (as Glyphstone put it): that seems to be at least a big factor in the difficulty of the fight. (also, if he is consistently using @will teleport this way...every caster w/teleport spells needs to take Abrupt Jaunt. You'll make Tite Kubo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tite_Kubo) cry :smallwink:)

howeeeever. YOu are playing a camapign in wheich you are gods stripped of your divinity. Not some random adventurers, no matter how awesome they are....man/woman up!:smallbiggrin: IN this situation, barely scraping by against templated pit fiends=freakin awesome! I mean, you are ex-gods trying to take your divinity back from (I am ssuming) usurpers (or at the very least betrayers). Of course you are going to be fighting some of the nastiest nasties in the outer planes.

Seriously, I'm not ragging on you, but I would find that so much fun, specificalyl because of the epic scope of what it is yo-u are, and what it is you are trying to accomplish:smalltongue:

Dracons
2010-11-13, 03:00 AM
Players can be really annoying if you dare to you know, add a challenge.


My players have destroyed armies singly handly at low levels.

They've killed Gods at level 15 due to tactics.


But man, they start to bitch and moan, if I dare to max out HP on all Boss type characters.


They bitch and moan that their AC isn't 50 + at level 8.

They bitch and moan that I declared their characters evil after killing an entire castle's guards after they bitch slapped the king for not /paying/ them enough gold. They wanted tens of thousands for winning that tourment to try a quest. (Level 1).

I know the rules. I know how monsters work. But each and every one of my players can far out powergame then me, and while they have never done infinite loops or any bull**** like that, I tend to mostly go on rolls. Seeing them constantly roll natural twenties, or max damage on spells while my poor cannon fodder rolls nat 1s on saves. They love crushing their enemies, but if they take a single hp damage, then something is seriously wrong with ME for daring to challenge them.


I'd never forget the time they had to go against a wight Red Dragon. I thought it be a challenge, as they up on cold protections and fire spells, since everyone was calling it the wight dragon.


Then they opened with polar rays and other cold spells, because it was obvious a fire dragon, or any other type of dragon besides a white, because too many people kept calling it the wight dragon.


After that battle. I do admit. I became a bad DM. They crushed the wight dragon and his minions, and started to gloat and demand horde. I told them roll saves. For once they failed. Blashmey sucked. They ran to an exit, and opened it, only to see a symbol of weakness that they all failed again. Then a half-fiend White Dragon came, along with his mate, the half-fiend Red Dragon. Teaming up, they brutally and horribly maimed the players. It was the wizards teleport spell while holding on the bodies of his friends, that saved them.


Then they got their luck back. The freaking wizard, even though he was in low HP (Like 25-35 at the time left, with low spells, still hurt a cleric enough, and imtimidate him enough to force him to raise his friends. Then killed him afterwards for taking so long.

I stated that the Paladin and the Cleric of Illmater came back grey skinned. They no longer had their power for their rampant killing and maiming.


I lost players that day, and had a broken arm from it, but I did get better players that while still insanely powerful and cry alot, I at least don't get attacked by them if I dare remotely hurt them and not treat them like their characters are walking gods to be worship by all at level 1.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-13, 03:20 AM
That group sounds horribly dysfunctional, even if you took out the RL-violent types. Why do you DM it?

Arbane
2010-11-13, 05:32 AM
I lost players that day, and had a broken arm from it,

:smalleek:

Uh... for real?

LordBlades
2010-11-13, 05:49 AM
To me, the OP's situation seems like a mix between bad tactics and DM's misunderstanding abilities.

The DM probably interpreted 'greater teleport at will' as 'greater teleport as a free action'.

But still, even in this situation, 2 lvl 15 full casters (I assume Boccob and WeeJas would be played as full casters) should have many more tricks up their sleeve apart from ray spells.

DMs are only human and they make mistakes sometimes.

For example (on the topic of overpowered encounters): the usual DM for our group is one of the best DM's I've played with (we tried changing DM's, but it usually only lasts for a few months before everybody agrees that 'your campaign is not as cool as this guy's'). We usually play very high power, but we have to take breaks in summer since more than half of the usual groups is made of college students that go home for holiday.

So this time he decides to have a short summer campaign. The player group consists of me and 3 other new(er) players so we take it easy on the power level (at lvl 5 we had a binder/warlock(me), fallen paladin/cleric going for bone knight, CAdv ninja, warmage and dragon shaman).

But the DM, after 3 years of optimized play, forgot how it felt like at a lower power level. So the first boss fight in the campaign puts us against 2 hydras, a basilisk, a rast, and a banelar. The new players wanted to stay and fight so I indulged them; two rounds later, the 3 of us that survived were running for our lives.

Cerlis
2010-11-13, 05:49 AM
I think people are confusing "add a challenge" with "Specifically metagaming the universe to use various obscure tactics in perfect concert to defeat the players"

Just cus some players out there are strong enough powergamers in which such metagaming is required to challenge them, doesnt mean your outright impression of hearing "He gave us a Challenge 10 levels to high" should be "Suck it up"


(and by metagaming i dont mean DMing, i mean doing crazy stuff like Randomly adding this template or spelllike ability or creature that would in no way be there just for specific conditions to screw over the player). Like the whole Giving a frost giant Fire resist specifically to negate an ability a player earned.

How bout we all just have equal HP, no abilities, attacks or resistances and just roll a d20 until someone's score equals 20. If your players play well, reward em, part of that reward being feesible, clever encounters. And if they cant handle something like that, give em something they can handle.

Dracons
2010-11-13, 05:56 AM
That group sounds horribly dysfunctional, even if you took out the RL-violent types. Why do you DM it?

Something to do. Outlet. I'm terribly shy, and have several issues myself, most noticeably a tendency to have rabid hatred towards people that bitch about their girlfriend. Get over it. You have a girlfriend that loves you. I couldn't do that. Not in a trillion years.




:smalleek:

Uh... for real?

Yes.




I think people are confusing "add a challenge" with "Specifically metagaming the universe to use various obscure tactics in perfect concert to defeat the players"

Just cus some players out there are strong enough powergamers in which such metagaming is required to challenge them, doesnt mean your outright impression of hearing "He gave us a Challenge 10 levels to high" should be "Suck it up"


(and by metagaming i dont mean DMing, i mean doing crazy stuff like Randomly adding this template or spelllike ability or creature that would in no way be there just for specific conditions to screw over the player). Like the whole Giving a frost giant Fire resist specifically to negate an ability a player earned.

How bout we all just have equal HP, no abilities, attacks or resistances and just roll a d20 until someone's score equals 20. If your players play well, reward em, part of that reward being feesible, clever encounters. And if they cant handle something like that, give em something they can handle.

Or you could do it this way. Simply ask the player how they killed current monster and/or encounter, seeing as it's how they been doing it, regardless of how you do it.

SOmetimes you simply do have to addhoc something into an encounter. Players get scared and angry over hard encounters, even though they can beat them (assuming the DM isn't flat out making an unkillible creature, which is completely different). Players get cocky and bored, if all they have to do is fart and beat said encounter, despite it already being five-ten levels and or cr ahead of it, it being the fifty encounter and they're only half dazed.

Point of the game is to have fun, and still be challenged. That includes the DM. I shouldn't have players utterly crushing and destroying everything in their paths simply because they roll high. Tactics I can understand. You use the enemies weakness and hurt them bad? That's just smart.

Managing to wave through army after army after army with no breaks, and is BORED from the lack of challenge, not the amount of killing is why I make encounters have on the spot enhancments if it can challenge them without outright killing them without a fair chance on their half.

Same with tactics from high level wizards or balors. I simply /counter/ it, unless it's something really unique. Simply put, a bunch of combined players who's intelligence and Wisdom, plus charisma if they have cohorts or armies is still far below another villian and his lackies? Say a lich that's been around for centries and have dealt with everything? He'll know how to counter it or reflect it, even if I didn't know how to, or it wouldn't make much sense.

It's much harder to roleplay a higher intelligent character if your not smart. So it requires some minor out of character stuff to fairly rebuff it at times.

Susano-wo
2010-11-13, 06:15 AM
I think people are confusing "add a challenge" with "Specifically metagaming the universe to use various obscure tactics in perfect concert to defeat the players"

Just cus some players out there are strong enough powergamers in which such metagaming is required to challenge them, doesnt mean your outright impression of hearing "He gave us a Challenge 10 levels to high" should be "Suck it up"

Actually, I think the responses have been along the lines of"you are playing ex-gods, expect some nasty challenges," and "its not so much the CR< its the misunderstanding of the monster ability." (oh and the ther should be good tactice you can use aside from just rays, etc. :P)

Kaww
2010-11-13, 09:35 AM
Brief clarification: one CHARACTER claimed it was an easy encounter...

The player could have had this opinion as well, but this was not made clear.

My understanding was that this was OoG opinion. Not IG...



I stated that the Paladin and the Cleric of Illmater came back grey skinned. They no longer had their power for their rampant killing and maiming.

You did the right thing.


I lost players that day, and had a broken arm from it...


:smalleek:

Uh... for real?



Yes.


I am shocked. I am sorry, I usually don't give humanity the benefit of a doubt, but I will not believe that they broke your arm for sake of a DND game. If I got it wrong please say so, because this is really (I bet that you have an expression for stuff like this, I just don't know it).

The Dark Fiddler
2010-11-13, 09:58 AM
Whenever I run a game in my homebrew setting, & the PCs go through a forest, I always have my players encounter a lone statue on a deserted path. The statue is of a young elven female. They never learn her name, & they never free her from her prison, but I think that's for the best. I just have her there to remember her. I never forgot my first time.

*Makes a note that if I ever play under Zeta Kai, I must play something that can cast Stone to Flesh*

shadow_archmagi
2010-11-13, 10:06 AM
BAD THINGS TO DO:
1. Require checks for things that don't require checks
1A. I cast prestidigitation to reflavor food. Bad DM made me make a spellcraft check in order to flavor it correctly. I failed and ended up with inedible food.

1B. We find a scrap of paper. I hit it with Detect Magic and it comes up Abjuration. "Looks like explosive runes, guys." I go over to get the paper, stating that I take precautions to not look at it. DM makes me roll a will save to resist the urge to read it. :-/

2. Tack on abilities that don't really make sense
2A. I had a DM add DR 5 to floating eyeballs once, because he thought we were having too easy of a time. Floating. Eyes. I was channeling a spell that did 1d6 per round.
2B. A frost giant? With fire resistance? An ice monster that fire doesn't kill? What're you SUPPOSED to use?

3. Fail at the rules
3A. Teleport at Will does not translate into "dodge every attack"
3B. Damage reduction shouldn't even have had an effect! It doesn't work against magic!

4. Overemphasize die rolls
4A. Yes, I know I rolled a one. But see, the DC is 10, and I have five ranks and +4 from my DEX, so I meet it anyway. There's no reason for this check not to pass.

Kaww
2010-11-13, 10:18 AM
BAD THINGS TO DO:
1. Require checks for things that don't require checks
1B. We find a scrap of paper. I hit it with Detect Magic and it comes up Abjuration. "Looks like explosive runes, guys." I go over to get the paper, stating that I take precautions to not look at it. DM makes me roll a will save to resist the urge to read it. :-/

2. Tack on abilities that don't really make sense
2A. I had a DM add DR 5 to floating eyeballs once, because he thought we were having too easy of a time. Floating. Eyes. I was channeling a spell that did 1d6 per round.
2B. A frost giant? With fire resistance? An ice monster that fire doesn't kill? What're you SUPPOSED to use?

3. Fail at the rules

4. Overemphasize die rolls
4A. Yes, I know I rolled a one. But see, the DC is 10, and I have five ranks and +4 from my DEX, so I meet it anyway. There's no reason for this check not to pass.

1B. This is playing other people's characters. A BIG NONO!!

2B. What's wrong with addition of obscure templates to creatures? It surprises the PCs and adds flavor to existing monsters. Especially if you have a player that knows MMs by heart. Refluff is acceptable if you keep the desired power lvl. Also stick to your refluff, don't change it every 10 minutes.

3. Correct us, we are human, we make mistakes.

4. That is silly, but if you roll 1 1 1 on a balance check you tripped, roll reflex. Bad mojo happens IRL as well...

Kris Strife
2010-11-13, 10:20 AM
According to RAW, you don't auto fail skill checks by rolling a 1.

Kaww
2010-11-13, 10:24 AM
4. That is silly, but if you roll 1 1 1 on a balance check you tripped, roll reflex. Bad mojo happens IRL as well...


According to RAW, you don't auto fail skill checks by rolling a 1.

I know. We have a HR. It's a 1/8000 that you will roll a reflex against DC 10. It happened a few times on checks that were not important, had some funny side-effects.

Noodles2375
2010-11-13, 10:32 AM
According to RAW, you don't auto fail skill checks by rolling a 1.

For some reason, my players continually forget this rule. They think that just because they rolled a 20 on the skill check (with 1 rank and an ability mod of +2 against a DC 20) that they should get some sort of critical success. I explain this is not how it works. But the flip side is also true! The BBN gets terribly scared when he rolls a 1 on a climb check even though he has a +4 str, +8 ranks, +2 climbers kit and the DC was only 15! At least it amuses me that they cut both ways! :smallsmile:

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-13, 10:39 AM
Coming from a Rolemaster background, we did have some mental resistance to the lack of crits and fumbles during the early 3.0 days, before we actually read the rules.

Nowadays, we use the 1 = -10 and 20 = 30 on skill checks rules, which means even high level characters can fluff it occasionally (but not on really trival things). We still have fumbles on attack rolls though - Rolemaster (and Warhammer FRP) has left too deep a scar there! (Though nowadays you can only fumble on your first attack roll of the round. And yes, you can fumble on ranged touch spells, too, to the DM's hilarity...)

Fumbles were the result of what probably consitutes a good "I hate you, Aotrs" moment. The fighter in one of our parties (at about level 5-7) got stuck in a cell with a single animated skeleton. Really, not a threat. Until he fumbled. Badly. Twice. That skeleton got special mention for services to the DM above and beyond the call of duty for managing to cause a fighter several times it's level to inflict about 20 damage on himself. (It as hilarious, and we've never let the player forget...!)

Of course, a fair few of our Rolemaster games ran into some hysterical moments, thanks to individual, or on a good day, collective group dice incompetance. Including the time one of the characters attempted to de-leech himself with his plasma rifle, three-quarters of the party fumbling in the same round one after another, each of whom had been trying to save one of the others and steadily making the situation worse, one guy shooting one of the other characters by mistakenly thinking using a shotgun at point blank range seemed like a good idea - when the latter was fighting a naked skeleton in melee the oppositre side of him - and of course, the infamous Battle of the Fumbles. Ah, good times, good times.

Demons_eye
2010-11-13, 10:45 AM
For some reason, my players continually forget this rule. They think that just because they rolled a 20 on the skill check (with 1 rank and an ability mod of +2 against a DC 20) that they should get some sort of critical success. I explain this is not how it works. But the flip side is also true! The BBN gets terribly scared when he rolls a 1 on a climb check even though he has a +4 str, +8 ranks, +2 climbers kit and the DC was only 15! At least it amuses me that they cut both ways! :smallsmile:

Some people like it that way. Had a DM that made nat 1 or 20 give bonuses to skill check, then you rolled again. One player (Shadow Archmagi) rolled three 20's in a row, with a nice modifier to start, and basically started a PETA for Elementals in the world.


For me: I was/still am pretty bad. ONe of the first games I did was a module which I kept forgetting to tell players stuff. Like that fact that the player made a knowledge check to tell them the monster was electric immune when he cast shocking grasp.

lord pringle
2010-11-13, 10:49 AM
I honestly play with any roll in your threat range is a crit and a 1 is a fumble.

Kaww
2010-11-13, 10:53 AM
I ruled nat 20 open roll, rolls add up. We had a goblin conversion (evil->good) with 20+20+20+20+12+mod > 100 diplomacy check and quite a few similar rolls with comical epilogues...

The Glyphstone
2010-11-13, 10:54 AM
2B. What's wrong with addition of obscure templates to creatures? It surprises the PCs and adds flavor to existing monsters. Especially if you have a player that knows MMs by heart. Refluff is acceptable if you keep the desired power lvl. Also stick to your refluff, don't change it every 10 minutes.
.

Adding templates to creatures is a-okay. Adding them retroactively, in the middle of combat, is a no-no.:smallsmile: Specifically,

5: Modifying monsters in-combat to deny players the use of their abilities.[/b] The DM has access to character sheets. He/she knows what the players are capable of. They should not be caught off-guard when a player breaks out a high-damage blasting spell or unusual debuff, and thus should not have to arbitrarily decide that the monster is now immune to that type of attack. Be prepared ahead of time (smart monsters use consumables). Make the next fight with that possibility in mind (in moderation). Give reinforcements. Just don't play the carrot-on-a-string game with your players, it's clumsy DMing and plain rude.

DarkEternal
2010-11-13, 11:07 AM
I remember when I was a player, we got stuck for a really long time in some town.

This is what happened from what I recall(things might be a bit off since this was years ago):

Basically, we were a level 8 party, and our barbarian got drunk(in and out of character) so he started to do stupid things. We went to buy horses and he intended to steal them, since he thought he deserved to get them for free, what with being a badarse Conan with a fantastic great axe(our DM gave us an option of rolling for one good item when we started the game or two so-so items. He went for one good item, and rolled a +4 Great Axe which for that level is fantastic). So, he knocked the merchant unconscious, the people in the city saw, since he did it in plain sight, called the city guard which were led by a level 15 dwarf warrior.

The rest of the party didn't really fight them, me especially since I played a paladin and what the barbarian did was idiotic so he deserved what was coming to him. Naturally, he got his arse kicked but he wasn't killed, but rather brought to court.

All great stuff so far, however, this was where it started to go wrong.

The DM kept us for like 5 sessions, each session at least 5-7 hours long for the court process. 5 bloody sessions of Law and Order, debating that he was under the influence, that he was a savage with low intelect and wisdom but did good for the community and such. We managed to get him free, but the court decided that his bail would be the axe. Naturally, the player had a beef with that. There goes another 2 sessions of pleading, writing IOU-s and stuff.

And this is a big no-no for me concerning DM-s. The idea, while great, needs to be dynamic because in the end, you are all there to have fun. Pissing about in court is by no definition, fun. We spent over two months in that god damn city arguing about idiotic stuff to the point when we got back to the adventuring we completely forgot where we were going in the first place.

Last Laugh
2010-11-13, 12:24 PM
I'm having difficulties with my DM (first time DM).

I started off as a Paladin/Beastmaster/Halfling outrider because I thought it would be a goofy but underpowered character idea (I ended up dealing about 1d6+2 damage, 3 attacks per round because of rapid shot) a tiny tiny guy riding a massive bird was pretty fun. My DM got upset because the birdy had too much AC and HP (it did have 26 AC and lots more HP than I did) I tried explaining alternative attacks to him (e.g. shoot the frail halfling on the bird, not the bird, use spells, touch attacks) but he insisted that I change my character or lower the AC to hittable levels (I also suggested that he throw harder enemies at us, 26 AC at level 9 isn't that great)

A few levels, and two characters later I am playing a sweet beguiler. I have 22 AC and about 77 hp (whisper gnome, we roll for stats 18 int, 18 dex, 18 con (after +2 dex/+2con) 12 wis, 10 cha, 9 str) I took the darkstalker feat (again, I thought it would be fun, I am super sneaky can spider climb, go invis, other sneaksy stuff) and every single creature we have run into can see me I pointed out to the DM that I have darkstalker (hides from extra senses) and he said that they can see via "movement".

I feel nullified. Except for having more HP than the fighter >.>

Drascin
2010-11-13, 12:32 PM
For some reason, my players continually forget this rule. They think that just because they rolled a 20 on the skill check (with 1 rank and an ability mod of +2 against a DC 20) that they should get some sort of critical success. I explain this is not how it works. But the flip side is also true! The BBN gets terribly scared when he rolls a 1 on a climb check even though he has a +4 str, +8 ranks, +2 climbers kit and the DC was only 15! At least it amuses me that they cut both ways! :smallsmile:

Yeah, my players like it that way as well - a 20 or a 1 should be more significant than just their numbers, to them. So we just use the rule suggested in M&M, where a 20 counts as a 30 and a 1 as a -10. That way, they're not instasuccess and instafail, but the numbers are still very significant and a 1 could really screw your roll up, like they want it :smallbiggrin:.

Kaww
2010-11-13, 12:33 PM
Your DM is new. He is allowed to make mistakes albeit not too many too often. You could point out some forums/guides/whateveryoumightthinkwillhelp. I read these on my own and I read them now when I see a good one. Just don't be too pushy. If he doesn't have issues he will thank you for the assistance.

Then again he might not be willing to change...

My advice is try and do things in a nice way if possible, double that if you are friends.

Last Laugh
2010-11-13, 12:45 PM
Your DM is new. He is allowed to make mistakes albeit not too many too often. You could point out some forums/guides/whateveryoumightthinkwillhelp. I read these on my own and I read them now when I see a good one. Just don't be too pushy. If he doesn't have issues he will thank you for the assistance.

Then again he might not be willing to change...

My advice is try and do things in a nice way if possible, double that if you are friends.

It's what I've been doing. I keep asking him if he needs help on encounter balancing or for me to explain the magic system (he homebrewed 'frost golems' they had a breath attack, could see invisible creatures and were immune to magic :smalleek:, after that encounter I told him about templates for critters.) I've been explaining my character abilities as I progress and helping him understand what the limits of characters are and how powerful they can be. I'm the only character that doesn't just smack stuff (the druid turns into a bear and then smacks stuff, the favored soul casts magic weapon (level 10 party) and then smacks stuff, the fighter/Dragon Shaman smacks stuff, I cast haste and then move to cover to hide)

It's not that bad, the game is still fun, it's entirely combat. I'm teaching him about skills and their applications, spells, what creatures are better for what situations. I've been stressing that he puts something in each encounter so that every party member can add to the team.

I just wanted to rant rather than roll it around in my head for a week.

Caphi
2010-11-13, 12:49 PM
1B. We find a scrap of paper. I hit it with Detect Magic and it comes up Abjuration. "Looks like explosive runes, guys." I go over to get the paper, stating that I take precautions to not look at it. DM makes me roll a will save to resist the urge to read it. :-/

I know I'm clinging to a vain hope, but please please please tell me this isn't based on a true story.

Wheels
2010-11-13, 03:42 PM
I've been a DM for more than 10 years, since AD&D, and it's been a learning experience.

I remember my first DM experience and it was just plain awful. Players were always trying to do things that my story was not prepared for and I just didn't know what to do. Since then I learned allot, and have acquired the experience to change things on-the-fly.

Players have to understand that sometimes DM's misjudge the strength of fights. We are also allowed to make mistakes. For a good game to roll and be fun, DM and players must be willing to make compromises. In the end, it's all about having fun.

I do think one of the problem with DMing is that DM's think they have to play against players. It happened to me some years ago and to lots of DM's I know. We are here just to present some challenges and have fun in the process

Starbuck_II
2010-11-13, 05:16 PM
Well, the in a new campaign first combat was against 5 Epic NPCs (or at least very high level).

There was a Wizard (I know he had defenstrating sphere), a Warrior type (heavy armor had a weapon that dealt Clay golem curse), and Cleric, some kind lightly armored (in appearance as it still have AC of No).

My puppy died that day. Wizard defenstrated him out a 30 ft window. 3/4th of party was stoned. I got knocked to 0 (amd decided to stay down so i wouldn't be killed). Lost our mentor that day. Soul absorbed into the sword (Thritum?).

Luckily, a frend arrived with the stone salve to cure party. This was supposed to make us want revenge and it did. But in regards to me not for my mentor: for my puppy!

So i didn't mind the loss a little.

Beelzebub1111
2010-11-13, 05:34 PM
From the other end, my players seem to think that if I SUCCEED my spot check by "only one" I shouldn't be able to see the square he's in. I try to point out that, no. If I pass a spot check by ANY amount I see you. Most skill checks are PASS or FAIL, there's no tiny successes.

But that's getting off topic.

My DM once put us up against these clockwork gnomes that fired disintegration beams and were immune to most magic. And did multiple d10s with each attack. I didn't think he knew that they were so tough, though.

Jair Barik
2010-11-13, 06:49 PM
From the other end, my players seem to think that if I SUCCEED my spot check by "only one" I shouldn't be able to see the square he's in. I try to point out that, no. If I pass a spot check by ANY amount I see you. Most skill checks are PASS or FAIL, there's no tiny successes.

But that's getting off topic.

My DM once put us up against these clockwork gnomes that fired disintegration beams and were immune to most magic. And did multiple d10s with each attack. I didn't think he knew that they were so tough, though.

Gnomes? Sounds to me like you came up against some clockwork horrors that looked different to their normal style.

shadow_archmagi
2010-11-13, 06:53 PM
I know I'm clinging to a vain hope, but please please please tell me this isn't based on a true story.

Oh, it was very true. But that DM wasn't too bad; he improved a lot over the summer and we all grew to love him. He had redeeming qualities. For one thing, he did voices for NPCs, but the only voice he could do was Nixon.

It made us feel a lot better about being murderous hobos when all the mayors were Nixon.


PETA for Elementals.

Oh, yes. That was the best. We had been on a fire-elemental powered boat that a dragon had attacked because it was morally opposed to slavery. We used our on-board kobold as a translator and negotiated the release of the elemental. Then the Binder and the Incarnate, who both had at-will lightning ready, hooked themselves to the engine and powered it so we could get back to shore.

"I tell the harbormaster that in the future he should probably look into not using elemental as fuel."
"Make a diplomacy check"
"Uh... I rolled a 20"
"Add +20 to your check and roll again"
"I rolled another 20"
"What."
"I rolled again and got a 19. Twenty and twenty and nineteen and my modifiers comes to... 87."
"You launch into an impassioned speech about the inherent humanity of elementals. Numerous townsfolk quit their jobs and fanatically support equal rights for these poor, downtrodden creatures. The harbormaster weeps openly at the magnificence of your speech."


^This is the same DM, two years later.

jinx1016
2010-11-13, 06:54 PM
many years ago we had a small group with me, and two other PC's, and our DM. we were all fairly new to the game but the DM was fairly knowledgeable. game lasted one session.

DM: you find out that the evil cult abducting people from the town, may be operating in the forest to the north.
US: we head to the forest.
DM: you are in the forest, it's getting dark.
US: we sleep.
DM: you don't wake up. campaigns over.

we thought he was kidding at first. but he was not, then he told us we were stupid for sleeping, at night, in the "evil forest".

if he was not a really good friend of mine, i may have thrown a book at him.

Beelzebub1111
2010-11-13, 08:00 PM
Gnomes? Sounds to me like you came up against some clockwork horrors that looked different to their normal style.

Second edition, It had an entry, but I can't remember the name...I want to say autognome, but that's not right.

RebelRogue
2010-11-13, 08:08 PM
Second edition, It had an entry, but I can't remember the name...I want to say autognome, but that's not right.
There was indeed a 2nd ed autognome, so I think you are.

Beelzebub1111
2010-11-13, 08:09 PM
There was indeed a 2nd ed autognome, so I think you are.
Yeah, I know there is one, but I'm not sure that that's the right creature that we fought.

DogbertLinc
2010-11-13, 10:48 PM
Playing 4e, the party is up against wraiths. The wraiths get to rob you on an attack.

COnsidering I had been saving +-400gp for a magical weapon for a while, I couldn't afford to get robbed, so I try to put my gold pouch in my pants, to protect them.

The DM rules that since I'm not "holding" it, they can still do it. (I'm about to get molested by wraiths)

The next idea is to hold the pouch in my off-hand. DM rules that because I'm holding it, the pouch gets in teh way of my attacks and I get a -5 penalty to all attack rolls because of it. (keep in mind there are NO dual wielding penalties in 4e).

I'd have ragequit right then and there, had not been for 10min of bitching; since both me and another guy had been dual wielding actual weapons for at least half the campaign.

Arbane
2010-11-13, 11:02 PM
According to RAW, you don't auto fail skill checks by rolling a 1.

Yes, but most GMs feel that having PCs FAIL HORRIBLY once every 20 times they try to do anything is Fun(tm).

:smallfurious:

Susano-wo
2010-11-13, 11:20 PM
I, fo one, can't stand fumbles unless they happen very infrequently. Even then..mishap would be a better wod. Fumble bings to mind throing your sword or stabbing your fiend in the arm with a knife (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umKb9WhGdmM). Which is fine for laughs, but really irks me when people who are supposed to be badassed do stupid stuff like that. :smallmad:

So I guess I don't mind 'fumbles' if the GM construes for competance. :smallamused:

Oh, and I am a big fan of the don't roll if its trivial school of thought:smallsmile:

Tharck
2010-11-14, 12:18 AM
I, fo one, can't stand fumbles unless they happen very infrequently. Even then..mishap would be a better wod. Fumble bings to mind throing your sword or stabbing your fiend in the arm with a knife (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umKb9WhGdmM). Which is fine for laughs, but really irks me when people who are supposed to be badassed do stupid stuff like that. :smallmad:

So I guess I don't mind 'fumbles' if the GM construes for competance. :smallamused:

Oh, and I am a big fan of the don't roll if its trivial school of thought:smallsmile:

Nods. Although if someone rolls a 1 twice... might consider it a fumble (bad effect) or they roll a 1 and then a 20 (humorous fumble to your advantage.)

Zephyros
2010-11-14, 01:09 AM
The very first campaign I ran (8 years ago) suffered from severe railroading for the first 2 sessions. As I fondly remember it was a WarcraftD20 campaign. At the very first session the alliance/independent party was arrested by Goblins, then sold to Trolls and made fight at the Gurubashi arena.

Then the usual DM of that group of friends explained to me that I was doing it wrong... I believe I 've improved over the years.:smallbiggrin:

Ormur
2010-11-14, 07:54 PM
Well my DM did throw our party of a similar level to the OP an encounter of a similar level to the pit fiends mentioned, but then again he never claimed it was fair. :smalltongue:

Two level 14 characters against a dragon that must have had a CR of about 25.

After rolling well enough not to die from the 9th level spells of the first round we realized it was time to get the heck out of there.

So YMMV, I quite enjoyed it and high level parties should IMO be able to survive most anything, not necessarily because they can beat every encounter but because they can almost always escape.


many years ago we had a small group with me, and two other PC's, and our DM. we were all fairly new to the game but the DM was fairly knowledgeable. game lasted one session.

DM: you find out that the evil cult abducting people from the town, may be operating in the forest to the north.
US: we head to the forest.
DM: you are in the forest, it's getting dark.
US: we sleep.
DM: you don't wake up. campaigns over.

we thought he was kidding at first. but he was not, then he told us we were stupid for sleeping, at night, in the "evil forest".

if he was not a really good friend of mine, i may have thrown a book at him.

Well did you at least keep a watch? It may be tough on new players but sleeping is a really bad status condition and a TPK isn't unrealistic since it's very easy to coup de grace a sleeping party. My party of experienced players made the same mistake and was lucky to only loose one member.

AshDesert
2010-11-14, 09:07 PM
I have a friend that we don't let DM anymore. He's tried several times, but each time he just keeps making the same mistakes and never learns. Cool guy, good player just can't figure out that DMing thing. His greatest hits include:

Sending 4 Rat Swarms against two level 1's, a Fighter and a (planned) archery Ranger. 4 CR 2's and two level 1's is not a balanced encounter. Worse, he decided that once the swarms started swarming the Fighter, the Ranger hit the Fighter on every attack where he didn't exceed the swarm's AC by 5. When he was aiming at the swarm the furthest away from the Fighter.

Same two characters on a reset, first encounter being a Troll. A TROLL! Against two low-op level 1's.

A solo adventure one of my friend's did where he played a level 1 Paladin and was extremely heavily railroaded into rescuing a princess from a Young Adult Red Dragon.

There are many more, but they all pretty much boil down to extremely above-level appropriate encounters and heavy railroading.

jinx1016
2010-11-14, 09:56 PM
Well did you at least keep a watch? It may be tough on new players but sleeping is a really bad status condition and a TPK isn't unrealistic since it's very easy to coup de grace a sleeping party. My party of experienced players made the same mistake and was lucky to only loose one member.


we did not keep a watch, as we were new. however there are two reasons that is somewhat irrelevant.

1) even asleep you get listen checks, a -10 penalty but you still get to make them.
2)the DM at the time didn't make rolls, or checks, he asked if we were going to sleep, we said yes, he immediately said we were dead.

the whole thing took about 5 seconds.

Swooper
2010-11-14, 10:49 PM
My party of experienced players made the same mistake and was lucky to only loose one member.
Yeah, rub it in :smallsigh:

Goudaa
2010-11-14, 11:30 PM
Mobs that sit in rooms and stare at doorways...forever. Maybe days, maybe, weeks, maybe years, Who Knows!??!?

Honestly, have some reason they're there and have them doing "something".

Arbane
2010-11-15, 10:24 PM
2)the DM at the time didn't make rolls, or checks, he asked if we were going to sleep, we said yes, he immediately said we were dead.

the whole thing took about 5 seconds.

I think the correct response to that is "Well, that was a fun game. Who's up for Parcheesi?"

KingMerv00
2010-11-15, 10:52 PM
This thread tells me what I already knew: I am an AWESOME DM.

Gerbah
2010-11-15, 11:05 PM
Fortunately, the one 'bad DM' we might have had we spotted early and stayed away from his campaign.

Started out innocent enough, the rules were "core Player's Handbook only" with feats from PHBII. Okay, fine, even though his reasoning was that non-core was broken and core was just perfect (no amount of persuasion convinced him, so we dropped it). Next, it was ruled everyone had to play a Human, since it was going to be a scenario where we end up in a "fantastical realm" full of faeries and wizards or whatever. I can see that, sure, kinda limiting but that's allright.

Now, here's where things got nasty. My friend wanted to play a Bard, and we thought that'd be nice since Bardic Knowledge could help us with the unknown, since he'd be familiar with various tales and stories. Nope! Bardic Knowledge didn't work, and he had to take Bardic Knack as a replacement. He then had a bit of an issue finding good feats to take as a Bard, but found one in Combat Panache (PHBII, which was the only other book allowed). Wasn't allowed to take that feat, obviously, I forget the reasoning at this point. Meanwhile I wanted to play a Ranger, he wielded two-swords. Nothing crazy about that, except the DM was flabbergasted that "a Ranger was pretending to be a Fighter". Apparently, the DM thought a Ranger absolutely under every condition had to wield a bow. I pointed out that they are proficient with all sorts of weapons, have no penalties to hitting anything in melee, and actually can choose to receive TWF feats instead of ranged ones, but he wouldn't let it go.

The final warning signal was the idea to remove Gold and instead have a "power pool" which would function the same. Only issue, you had to spend points from it to heal, and automatically lost some if taken below 0 health. Weren't allowed to heal naturally either. The most obvious problem with this system is that Fighters and the like become even worse than spellcasters. Much worse. They lose more HP naturally, but now every time they get hit it weakens their ability to get the magical items they need to be effective. Meanwhile, a Wizard is a wizard, we all know the story.

We skipped that campaign.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-15, 11:11 PM
Fortunately, the one 'bad DM' we might have had we spotted early and stayed away from his campaign.

Started out innocent enough, the rules were "core Player's Handbook only" with feats from PHBII. Okay, fine, even though his reasoning was that non-core was broken and core was just perfect (no amount of persuasion convinced him, so we dropped it). Next, it was ruled everyone had to play a Human, since it was going to be a scenario where we end up in a "fantastical realm" full of faeries and wizards or whatever. I can see that, sure, kinda limiting but that's allright.

Now, here's where things got nasty. My friend wanted to play a Bard, and we thought that'd be nice since Bardic Knowledge could help us with the unknown, since he'd be familiar with various tales and stories. Nope! Bardic Knowledge didn't work, and he had to take Bardic Knack as a replacement. He then had a bit of an issue finding good feats to take as a Bard, but found one in Combat Panache (PHBII, which was the only other book allowed). Wasn't allowed to take that feat, obviously, I forget the reasoning at this point. Meanwhile I wanted to play a Ranger, he wielded two-swords. Nothing crazy about that, except the DM was flabbergasted that "a Ranger was pretending to be a Fighter". Apparently, the DM thought a Ranger absolutely under every condition had to wield a bow. I pointed out that they are proficient with all sorts of weapons, have no penalties to hitting anything in melee, and actually can choose to receive TWF feats instead of ranged ones, but he wouldn't let it go.

The final warning signal was the idea to remove Gold and instead have a "power pool" which would function the same. Only issue, you had to spend points from it to heal, and automatically lost some if taken below 0 health. Weren't allowed to heal naturally either. The most obvious problem with this system is that Fighters and the like become even worse than spellcasters. Much worse. They lose more HP naturally, but now every time they get hit it weakens their ability to get the magical items they need to be effective. Meanwhile, a Wizard is a wizard, we all know the story.

We skipped that campaign.


Maybe he just wanted to play Gauntlet: The Tabletop Game?:smallbiggrin:

BridgeCity
2010-11-16, 01:20 AM
Mobs that sit in rooms and stare at doorways...forever. Maybe days, maybe, weeks, maybe years, Who Knows!??!?

Honestly, have some reason they're there and have them doing "something".

I agree with this. Fortunately, my current DM hates it if a monster has no logical reason for existing or for being where the adventurers are, so I don't have to put up with it anymore.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-16, 02:18 AM
I would just like to say, in contrast to the DMs in this thread, my 4th edition DM is awesome.

Although he has a rather odd policy concerning certain PC races. Not a huge deal though.

faceroll
2010-11-16, 03:00 AM
More seriously - how does a CR 25 fight (3 CR20+ monsters) against a group of lvl15 PCs equal a 'pushover', even without their 'Abrupt Jaunt +9001" rules goof?

Troll around some char op forums, and you'll find level 6 characters that can take out CR 20 monsters. Really smart, powerful, capable monsters. CR isn't that informative, given both the huge variability within the CR system (adamantine horrors, juggernaughts, kobolds with npc levels, ogre magi, etc) and party build (dungeoncrashers, batmans, ToB, hulking hurlers, druidzilla, warmages, monks, and so on).


2. Tack on abilities that don't really make sense
2B. A frost giant? With fire resistance? An ice monster that fire doesn't kill? What're you SUPPOSED to use?

You know, ice like abilities on all the ice monsters never made sense. Salamanders live on the plane of fire; what good does shooting fireballs do? Wouldn't it be more advantageous for the salamander to shoot frostballs?

And for intelligent creatures that can acquire items, getting some fire resistance as a frost giant would be pretty high on my equipment list.


snip

Did you guys ever rob shopkeeps after that?

absolmorph
2010-11-16, 03:09 AM
I started pretty bad. When something like the OP happens, you need to talk to your DM, and leaving the group isn't an over-reaction.

Personally, I've improved a lot in my DMing. The first encounter I ran... I'm kind of ashamed, actually. I think it was actually EL 7-ish, and it was a level 1 party. Of course, most of that was from LA (they were drow) and they weren't played to their full abilities (no SLAs were used), so I don't feel as bad.
But the last few sessions were pretty much grindfests (lots of dice rolling, lots of killing, lots of XP). But that's changing. I threw a proper boss encounter at them on Friday, and my players enjoyed that.
And the other two (who couldn't make it) are gonna get a boss of their own, in order to start hinting that the current opponents might not be the actual villains.
And there won't be much mass combat. No need to spend a minute moving all the tokens around and rolling the attacks and trying to make sure the 4 good guys aren't overwhelmed by the 50 enemies (who were, by the by, slaughtered).

On the other hand, I'm playing a level 1 bard in a mostly level 6 2e campaign (I chose to start there) and the DM isn't pulling punches much with me. Of course, when you have 2 HP, there isn't much room for punching to start with...
But it's still fun, and would be more fun if my arrows could actually hit enemies :smallannoyed:

Killer Angel
2010-11-16, 03:24 AM
Thor claimed is was an "easy encounter"


Frankly, this is awesome.
Kudos to Thor's player! :smallbiggrin:

Dracons
2010-11-16, 07:18 AM
Did you guys ever rob shopkeeps after that?

I don't think any of them ever broke a law again in that game. Hell of a way to keep players lawful, or at least make it so the Chaotic *Stupid and/or ANTI-LAW BECAUSE I IS CHAOS! That is why I killed king! I"M CHAOTIC!* type players not so uh, chaotic stupid.


God I hate players and DM that take those alignments to the stupid extreme.

Like one player, who claims that Wizards crowned him the worlds greatest Dungeon Master, despite the fact that is a completely opinionated title, he didn't even know half the rules for any edition, got in a fight with ME for breaking the rules of chaos and law. Chaotic characters cannot hit the same opponete twice a round, they must attack different people even if it wouldn't be tactically sound. A lawful character must stay the course of action and continue to fight the bad guy even if it wasn't tactically sound. This means if that bad guy escapes, the lawful character must NOT fight any more, until he tracks down that character and kills him. Even if takes years. He cannot even attack that person's guard or army, only fight that bad guy.

Needless to say, when I calmly replied that he has been playing a CN barbarian, and he has never once changed targets in combat, as he enjoyed smashing them over and over. He just kinda stammered and had no reply.


He also is no longer allowed to ever DM due to his many many many stupid house rules.

Psyx
2010-11-16, 07:27 AM
...making my Greater Orb of Force spells and Wee Jas's Maximized Widened Empowered Twin Ray'd Disrupt Undead...

No encounter in a game with that phrase in it could ever be constituted as 'unfair'.

If two of the party are wizards of 15th level and neither had Anticipate Teleport and Heart of Water memmed, it's your fault.

You need to be more than a one-trick pony, I'd say.

Psyx
2010-11-16, 07:29 AM
Chaotic characters cannot hit the same opponete twice a round, they must attack different people even if it wouldn't be tactically sound. A lawful character must stay the course of action and continue to fight the bad guy even if it wasn't tactically sound.

Long ago I read a magazine article proposing that Lawful characters should have to take average HP per level and only Chaotic ones should roll. Go figure.

Grendus
2010-11-16, 12:02 PM
Ahh, the age old law/chaos axis. Is lawful always holding their word for no particular reason? Should chaotic be opposing the law or merely ignoring it?

Makes me want to roll up a chaotic stupid barbarian again. Fun times.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-16, 12:14 PM
Ahh, the age old law/chaos axis. Is lawful always holding their word for no particular reason? Should chaotic be opposing the law or merely ignoring it?

Makes me want to roll up a chaotic stupid barbarian again. Fun times.

For you, or everyone who had to suffer your presence?:smallamused:

Susano-wo
2010-11-16, 03:14 PM
You know, ice like abilities on all the ice monsters never made sense. Salamanders live on the plane of fire; what good does shooting fireballs do? Wouldn't it be more advantageous for the salamander to shoot frostballs?

And for intelligent creatures that can acquire items, getting some fire resistance as a frost giant would be pretty high on my equipment list.


Ice abilities are on Ice monsters becuase their essence is tied to elemental ice, not because they evolved to use ice, so what is most advantageous has nothing to do with it.:smallsmile:

Though I agree that an intelligent monster with a weakness would do well to cover it, given the opportunity.