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gooddragon1
2010-11-12, 07:25 PM
Exactly what the title says?

Would you allow a player to have an unlimited lifespan + perpetual youth with a feat?

At what level (preferably before level 20)?

My thinking would be: the character reverse ages to the minimum age for adulthood and remains there, he recieves no penalties for age but his bonuses that he might have are removed and must be regained over a very long period of years subject to DM discretion.

TurtleKing
2010-11-12, 07:32 PM
It would depend on how the character gains immortality/ long lifesspan. Is it by being undead, cursed, racial, divinity, or even something else. This heavily influenced by the characters backstory and personality. What is the plot or overarching story, and are they connected. So the questions are how and why.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-12, 07:38 PM
Yeah. I see nothing wrong with this. It's highly underpowered compared to most feats, comes with several drawbacks, and the player can still be killed.

Heck, I wouldn't even make it a feat. I'd make it a one time spell that doesn't cost very much.

arangatang
2010-11-12, 07:40 PM
I wouldn't make it a feat, its not really a mechanical advantage. If a player wants to be immortal, it can either be part of their backstory or something they can quest for. As long as its cool.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-12, 07:41 PM
Agreed. Except for very unusual campaigns, a character will rarely if ever change age brackets, let alone die of old age.

Quietus
2010-11-12, 07:44 PM
There's an Epic feat that expands your life span, but I don't think it's a very good use of Epic feats. I'd allow a player to take a feat that does this, so long as there's a story reason.

Kylarra
2010-11-12, 07:44 PM
I'd allow it and even allow them to accrue normal mental abilities to their normal aging categories, simply because by virtue of being a PC, you're probably going to be either dead or epic long before you shift age brackets.

lord pringle
2010-11-12, 07:48 PM
I wouldn't even charge a feat. As long as it worked in game it would be fine.

gooddragon1
2010-11-12, 07:50 PM
Well that's excellent. I'm underbidding because having all my characters have the potential to live forever is very important to me. So much so that I am willing to take mechanical penalties for it.

Morithias
2010-11-12, 07:51 PM
Agree with all the rest, this is fluff, and fluff that can't really be abused.

Knowledge of old events is based on the skills, the only 'fluff' I ever require to be feat taken is noble birth, since players tend to be arrogant about it, or try to use their power and wealth to bypass the whole campaign.

Lord Bingo
2010-11-12, 07:53 PM
Members of the Contemplative prestige class achieve immortality at their 10th level. If they are still young when this happens they remain so.

In and of itself this really does not mean much in regard to the game mechanics unless you allow aging bonuses to accrue without the the usual drawbacks to aging. Still, bearing in mind what has already been said about aging in D&D, it would depend upon what role time plays in your campaign.

As a principle, however, I am against allowing PC's (and NPC's for that matter) to achieve immortality easily. It has to take a major effort/sacrifice because it represents a step closer to divinity.

kyoryu
2010-11-12, 07:54 PM
I'd only charge a feat for it if aging penalties are an actual, regular part of gameplay.

Coidzor
2010-11-12, 07:56 PM
Aside from becoming immune to the effect of bestow curse that causes aging... I don't really see any mechanical advantage. If it'd come up that the character has to live that long, it's either a feat tax or he has to become undead or an outsider or something anyway.

Jack_Simth
2010-11-12, 07:59 PM
Exactly what the title says?

Would you allow a player to have an unlimited lifespan + perpetual youth with a feat?

At what level (preferably before level 20)?

My thinking would be: the character reverse ages to the minimum age for adulthood and remains there, he recieves no penalties for age but his bonuses that he might have are removed and must be regained over a very long period of years subject to DM discretion.

Chiming in with the 'in most campaigns, not an issue' crowd. Seriously. I'd likely want it to be something along the lines of 'freak of birth' or 'curse of a deity' or similar, rather than 'I found the ultimate youth spell!' - but that's for reasons of NPC interactions, rather than other reasons. See, if agelessness were easy, you wouldn't have anyone becoming a lich to stop the clock... vampirism isn't all that special... and so on. Plus then I can have NPC villians wanting to capture you for study that way, and you can't simply bypass it by 'telling them how'.

gbprime
2010-11-12, 08:48 PM
The only real thing about it is a prestige of actual immortality. Doesn't have much game effect. But personally, I'd throw it in with attaining Divine Rank 0. Anything less than that, you aren't immortal, just really long lived. Even dragons only live 2000-4000 years, after all.

Splendor
2010-11-13, 07:29 AM
Remember that the playable race Elans don't die of old age.

"Elans have effectively unlimited life spans. As long as they are not destroyed, their mental arts could conceivably continually energize and rebuild their bodies for a thousand years or more." - Expanded Psionics pg 9

Alleran
2010-11-13, 07:37 AM
On top of Elans, there's also the Kissed by the Ages spell from Dragon Magazine. It also has accompanying rules for making ancient/immortal PCs.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-11-13, 09:19 AM
On top of Elans, there's also the Kissed by the Ages spell from Dragon Magazine. It also has accompanying rules for making ancient/immortal PCs.
#354

That article also included a number of background feats for characters who had started out play as immortal. Can’t recall if there was a feat that only made you immortal or if they all had additional benefits, though.

gathro
2010-11-13, 09:27 AM
Mechanically, it's fine. For story reasons though, I'd want to make it very difficult for PCs to become immortal, perhaps using it as an adventure hook. This could make a good campaign, with a party of characters instead of a BBEG. The PCs have to race another party, not necesarily an evil one, to obtain something that makes them immortal, and that there is a very limited supply of. (Just enough to make everyone in one of the parties immortal.)

GirlWithASword
2010-11-13, 10:16 AM
There's a feat in Dragon Magazine called Wedded to History. Among various selectable benefits it also makes you ageless.

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-13, 10:35 AM
Heck, anyone playing and Elf in any of my games (or various other sorts of fey) are technically ageless normally. I probably wouldn't charge a feat for it (because, really my games happen either over comic-book time or very short period, so it really wouldn't matter), but I would require instead a suitable explanation to my satisfaction.

Valameer
2010-11-13, 10:39 AM
Yeah elans and (practically) elves get this for free. If you want it down on the character sheet just make it a free [exalted] feat or something: Immortal. A lot of different creatures get access to immortality, and it doesn't make much of a difference.

Synapse
2010-11-13, 10:53 AM
Exactly what the title says?

Would you allow a player to have an unlimited lifespan + perpetual youth with a feat?

At what level (preferably before level 20)?

My thinking would be: the character reverse ages to the minimum age for adulthood and remains there, he recieves no penalties for age but his bonuses that he might have are removed and must be regained over a very long period of years subject to DM discretion.

Depends...
power level? It doesn't matter. Elans are such just by being elans. Wedded to History has the eternity as its shtick and it wasn't deemed worthy a feat (the feat grants the agelessness plus stuff like untrained knowledge checks or denying favored enemy against you). Agelessness by itself is irrelevant.

Your choice lays primarily on the consequences of such to your campaign. Is a long lifespan normal in your world? If discovered, how will people react to an immortal? How can a character's immortality allow him to gain power or in some way alter the campaign?

Vortling
2010-11-13, 10:57 AM
There's also warforged from Eberron who get effectively unlimited lifespan as well. No feat required. Your DM does have to be on board with robotmen though.

TurtleKing
2010-11-13, 11:21 AM
Another thing to consider if immortality matters is if their is time travel.
One campaign cosmology I played in involved a lot of time travel. At one point my character had to travel time the normal way (he is undead) while another took a portal. Playing a character with thousands of years (12k+) does have an effect such as the character being wise and knowledgable. As such I am arguably the wisest in my groups pantheon. This may not be reflected by stats (only a 2 point difference), but by experience from the years. Granted he is also the most powerful of the pantheon now.

So answer the questions of how they are immortal, why they are immortal, and how this affects the characters.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-13, 12:02 PM
Personally I'd only have it as a feat if it provided other benefits as well. The only possible limit I might put on it is having to be naturally long-lived (usually via race) or being 6th level or higher, since normal humans get to around 5th at the highest and 6+ would seem like demigod levels in this world so immortality wouldn't be at all unreasonable. I might not even do that, though.

I might make it a Trait, with no attached drawback. Sure, you don't get a penalty like you would for any other Trait but it stops you from taking something more useful so it's still a toss-up and not a must-have. YMMV, IMO, and all that.

Zen Master
2010-11-13, 03:17 PM
For all practical purposes, I've never played a character that didn't have unlimited lifespan and eternal youth.

So ... waste a feat on that? Sure, if you like.

mootoall
2010-11-13, 03:57 PM
Frankly, I'd only charge a feat because it could be abused at character creation for the +2 to all mental stats with no penalties. If it were a quest in the campaign, I'd completely allow it free.

Callista
2010-11-13, 04:01 PM
Only in games where you can't cast spells that cost years off your life. In those systems, it would be overpowered.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-13, 04:09 PM
Sure, I'd let them take Wedded To History (from Dragon 354) at level 1.

Cause that's what you're asking about, right? That feat that can only be taken at level 1 that gives you eternal youth?

The Dark Fiddler
2010-11-13, 04:17 PM
Only in games where you can't cast spells that cost years off your life. In those systems, it would be overpowered.

Actually, a wizard who is completely immortal if only he doesn't use his powers might be pretty interesting, if done right.

Optimator
2010-11-13, 04:19 PM
One feat? no. Two or three, maybe. Probably. I mean, two or three feats is a hefty chunk for something that has no real in-combat use.

randomhero00
2010-11-13, 04:57 PM
Yeah unless there's planned abuse. If abuse though its easy to take care of since he's not truly immortal, just ageless.

2-HeadedGiraffe
2010-11-13, 05:32 PM
From a gameplay standpoint, immortality usually won't be that useful. From a story point of view, however, it has more serious implications. If theoretically anyone can become immortal as a level-one character, why are people still aging and dying in the world in general? If a player can take it as a level-one feat, why aren't people taking it with their first level of commoner or some such? Basically, if the player can become immortal with relative ease, why isn't everyone immortal? The flavor implications are, I believe, important to consider.

Callista
2010-11-13, 05:34 PM
Only has issues if people actually choose which feats to take consciously. In the case of feats like Dodge or Two-Weapon Fighting, of course they're undergoing training; but other feats represent natural abilities that you're born with, character traits, or racial tendencies. A feat that makes you ageless would be an example of the sort you can't consciously choose to take.

fireinakasha
2010-11-13, 05:51 PM
For me, it would depend on the amount of abuse that being unaging could provide.

For instance, a melee character, or just a plain old adult-aged character, could get it for free. A casting character/any other class that benefits heavily from high mental abilities, starting at an older age rank, would maybe need it as a feat or maybe just a character trait. But an ancient Drow Ultimate Magus might need to quest for the ability.

Saph
2010-11-13, 06:15 PM
I wouldn't allow it.

From a balance perspective, it's underpowered, since mechanically it doesn't do anything useful. From a RP perspective, it's overpowered, since while everyone else gets a +1 to their spell DCs or whatever, you get to live forever.

There's no possible way you can balance immortality against something like Improved Initiative or Power Attack. Eternal youth should be something you get via RP or powerful in-game effects, not a feat.

shadow_archmagi
2010-11-13, 06:44 PM
From a RP perspective, it's overpowered, since while everyone else gets a +1 to their spell DCs or whatever, you get to live forever.


Except that how often is that REALLY going to come up? I mean, I can see it being played for laughs

"He says he'll see you in six months"
"I stand and wait."
---
"You're trapped underground"
"Okay. I get out my playing cards and practice my solitaire until the mountain erodes."


But I can't see it allowing one player to outshine everyone else. I mean, it totally works for The Doctor to outshine everyone else, but that has more to do with him being The Doctor than with being immortal, as other immortals are much less impressive. Elves are effectively immortal in that no campaign ever lasts long enough to move an age category for them, and they're really irritating (but that isn't related to the immortality. They're just elves.)

The real trouble with allowing Wedded To History is that it allows you to take Packrat, which is just silly. :smallamused:

Tiki Snakes
2010-11-13, 07:25 PM
I think I'd charge a plot hook or three, rather than a feat, really.

Like, sure, you aren't going to age. Also, you have an ancient nemesis. He's also immortal, and has dedicated his eternity (or at least this millenia or so) to trolling you. Expect him to show up and mess with your stuff, purely to make your life more complicated.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2009/342/f/1/Doctor_Who___The_Masters_by_caldwellart.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_%28Doctor_Who%29)
"I am usually reffered to as The Master" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha3iNhL1yVM&feature=related)

Saph
2010-11-13, 07:30 PM
Except that how often is that REALLY going to come up?

Never. That's the point. Immortality works as a background or as a goal, but not as a feat, because it's completely useless in a standard D&D mission. I'd just give it to the player for free and add some RP drawback to balance it out.

Evil DM Mark3
2010-11-13, 07:36 PM
Why on earth not?

2-HeadedGiraffe
2010-11-14, 08:05 AM
It's going to come up in gameplay primarily because your character having it implies other people in the world have it. Callista makes a good point, in that it might not be the sort of thing everyone can obtain, but there will still be others who have done so. Who can get it and how? Also, if the character has been around for a very long time, they may have allies or enemies among the other immortals, as was previously suggested.

I would not allow someone to take a feat that keeps them from aging in order to get mental benefits of old age without taking physical penalties or any shenanigans like that. I guess an important question is why the character in question wants such a thing.

SlyGuyMcFly
2010-11-14, 09:04 AM
I think I'd charge a plot hook or three, rather than a feat, really.



I'd just give it to the player for free and add some RP drawback to balance it out.


This. If something gives no real mechanical benefit, but has a hefty story benefit, then the cost should be story-driven, not mechanical.

Synapse
2010-11-14, 09:05 AM
It's going to come up in gameplay primarily because your character having it implies other people in the world have it. Callista makes a good point, in that it might not be the sort of thing everyone can obtain, but there will still be others who have done so. Who can get it and how? Also, if the character has been around for a very long time, they may have allies or enemies among the other immortals, as was previously suggested.

I would not allow someone to take a feat that keeps them from aging in order to get mental benefits of old age without taking physical penalties or any shenanigans like that. I guess an important question is why the character in question wants such a thing.

That's good ancient conspiracy material right there. Ancient prophecies would be just codes a certain cabal uses to pass messages around as the members must be spread through the world to ensure their influence is perennial.

Set
2010-11-14, 11:50 AM
Free, up until the first time the player tried to abuse it by suggesting that he should know something or be able to do something (that he didn't otherwise pay for) because his character is 400 years old. Then it goes away as easily as it came. :)

grimbold
2010-11-14, 11:56 AM
this could lead to a really cool adventure like an old wizard wanting immortality but in the grand scheme of feats... no.
simply because pretty much no one ever advances age brackets in 99% of campaigns

fireinakasha
2010-11-14, 05:12 PM
All of this talk about how no one ever age ranks in a campaign really makes me want to run a campaign that takes place over the course of decades/centuries.

Maybe demand that in order to gain a new level, you have to montage through a year or more worth of training/research/discovery. Have really long expanses of PC downtime between events. Heck, this would make the whole game feel a little more legit, I bet. No more "I am nearly a god! Gosh, I'm so glad I left home to fight some kobolds like three weeks ago!"

The Big Dice
2010-11-14, 05:33 PM
All of this talk about how no one ever age ranks in a campaign really makes me want to run a campaign that takes place over the course of decades/centuries.

Maybe demand that in order to gain a new level, you have to montage through a year or more worth of training/research/discovery. Have really long expanses of PC downtime between events. Heck, this would make the whole game feel a little more legit, I bet. No more "I am nearly a god! Gosh, I'm so glad I left home to fight some kobolds like three weeks ago!"

Check out Pendragon and how that game handles things. In there, every session is a year in the life of your character. So it's entirely possible for your PC to age, have children, die of old age and then your new character is the child of your old one, carrying on the legacy you built.

Ormur
2010-11-14, 08:13 PM
Not with a feat, unless they found one in the books and gave me a good reason for playing an immortal character.

They could however play an immortal race, try to wish for it, go on a quest for an item or simple make a pact with druids and commit ritual suicide whenever they advance to an age category they don't like to be reincarnated.

Lev
2010-11-14, 08:16 PM
No.
That's an attribute tweak, and if a feat then possible first level meaning a first level player could have for instance 24+ into an attribute.

I'd say template would work.

Synapse
2010-11-14, 08:28 PM
No.
That's an attribute tweak, and if a feat then possible first level meaning a first level player could have for instance 24+ into an attribute.

I'd say template would work.

Orrrrrrr you can just have the feat stop the aging like some of the sample canon immortality sources. Or play normally since no one is stopped from starting the game at an advanced age anyway. Or... I don't know. Your reason doesn't make any sense to me, mr Lev. Please clarify if there's something more to it.

2-HeadedGiraffe
2010-11-15, 04:32 PM
If the character is exceptionally old, would he get a competency bonus on Knowledge (History) checks because he was there?

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 04:34 PM
If the character is exceptionally old, would he get a competency bonus on Knowledge (History) checks because he was there?

Well, if he personally witnessed events I think that'd be more of an intelligence check to remember something rather than a skill check. And I think it'd be more of a circumstance bonus than a competency bonus if you were going that way.

I think I would allow it, but I'd only do so if I worked out ahead of time where and what the character had been doing in broad terms and establish a set of different bonii based upon how likely he would have come into contact with such information while it was fresh.

Stegyre
2010-11-15, 05:44 PM
Depends.

First, if the player wants to be an immortal who has already lived for centuries (or longer) -- I just wouldn't allow it, not by feat or otherwise. As a rule, I want characters to have their experience in game, not as a preliminary to it. YMMV.

Second, if the player want to play a young character, who either happens to be, or becomes, immortal -- sure! Why not? As already pointed out, it's not likely to have much (if any) mechanical benefit; it's a matter of making a player happy without making him (or her) overpowered/cheesy. There's something to be said for improving the players' experience by giving them something that they want. The feat cost is a good tax for it, and will help the player value the trait. ("Is being unaging really worth putting off feat x for three more levels?")

Requiring an in-game justification (or plot hooks) is also appropriate, and IMO, answers the question, "Why isn't everyone immortal?" Maybe a psionic character has researched the elan's secret of rejuvenation, but it's very difficult or only certain people would ever be able to accomplish it -- so the secret is not widely known and cannot be readily passed on. Maybe its an effect of some Outsider heritage -- a fluke of genetics that this character has but others don't. Etc.

Lev
2010-11-15, 06:43 PM
Orrrrrrr you can just have the feat stop the aging like some of the sample canon immortality sources. Or play normally since no one is stopped from starting the game at an advanced age anyway. Or... I don't know. Your reason doesn't make any sense to me, mr Lev. Please clarify if there's something more to it.
A: My character is 24 years old, he is strong, healthy, but still pretty new to the world, he has barely been outside his own continent, but his vigor and enthusiasm make up for it.
B: My character is 4,000 years old, he is strong, healthy, and has seen civilizations rise and fall, endless bickering between pseudo-gods and kings erupt, he has loved and lost more times than you've sat down for dinner, and his vigor and enthusiasm are pretty great too ;]

The Big Dice
2010-11-15, 07:17 PM
A: My character is 24 years old, he is strong, healthy, but still pretty new to the world, he has barely been outside his own continent, but his vigor and enthusiasm make up for it.
B: My character is 4,000 years old, he is strong, healthy, and has seen civilizations rise and fall, endless bickering between pseudo-gods and kings erupt, he has loved and lost more times than you've sat down for dinner, and his vigor and enthusiasm are pretty great too ;]

And is 1st level?

Terazul
2010-11-15, 07:31 PM
And is 1st level?

S'never been a problem for Dragonwrought Kobolds. Or Elves. Or Elan. Or any other long-lived race that can start off in their 80+s at level 1. Some people just chill instead of going out and adventuring. Admittedly 4000 is a bit more, but eh, same concept.

Tiki Snakes
2010-11-15, 07:43 PM
And is 1st level?

At the moment, yes.
I understand the time needed to go from level 1, to level 20 or something is around three weeks?

Perhaps, perhaps not. It's short, though. I'd say it's safe to say that not only should you not assume that you can't assume that you will get XP over time just because, and you shouldn't assume that XP can't go down, either. There are several ways at least, even just by RAW, let alone if you allow DM ideas to come into it.

"I ruled a vast kingdom, using my accumulated arcane power, for a thousand years, boy! That was a long while ago, though, and there was that decade where I mostly stayed in and did Meth...I can't really remember much of either time period, actually, and heaven help me if I can remember the nack of all those old spells I used to use. You should have seen them! This one time...[insert rambling old man anecdote of dubious accuracy here]."

Prime32
2010-11-15, 08:00 PM
And is 1st level?Or your power was stolen/sealed away/etc. Hey, free plot hook!

The Big Dice
2010-11-15, 08:14 PM
Honmestly, for the price of a single feat, you may as well be playing an Elf. Or any other long lived race with no LA.

Lev
2010-11-15, 11:29 PM
Honmestly, for the price of a single feat, you may as well be playing an Elf. Or any other long lived race with no LA.
I think the topic of "elves aging balance doesn't make any sense" has been covered.

I'd wager your campaigns shouldnt have age to stat changes, no physical loss and no mental gain.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-15, 11:52 PM
ya, spending a feat on somthing like this is sort of silly unless it is flavor like in a few of the ones people mentioned. Or for a race or simthing like that.

That being said i did take a +1LA once to be part of the glue that held the inner planes togeather it gave immortality and a bunch of other stuff.

2-HeadedGiraffe
2010-11-16, 08:49 AM
It's a bit cliched (okay, really cliched), but I had a character in a game of mine who had survived a really long time but had since lost his memory. He was a Warforged who had basically been deactivated for several centuries while the world went to pot and only reawakened relatively recently when the game opened. In this way, he actually had less knowledge of the current world than some of his fellow party members, but, if he'd been able to recover his memory, he might have had some valuable insight into how things used to be.

I guess the point of this example is that the right background could make an already-old character feasible and even, at least in this case, put him at somewhat of a disadvantage. I will reiterate, though, that this should not be allowed without it having some repercussion in the story. Someone knows him, he did something, he's not the only one, something. Something that will become relevant to the players.

BTW: we didn't bother with a mechanical explanation of HOW a Warforged loses his memory and goes dormant, or how he came back out of it. It was just a plot thing.

panaikhan
2010-11-16, 08:56 AM
I wouldn't charge a player a feat for this.

Make it a Ritual (like the Draconic Rituals). At the cost of a couple of HP and some gold, they effectively live 1000's of years.

DwarfFighter
2010-11-16, 09:23 AM
Late arrival: I really can't think of any campaign I've played where the character's age actually mattered.

-DF