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Adamaro
2010-11-13, 03:30 PM
- Why do demons not take over all planes? (Except, say, Sigil?) There is after all an infinite amount of them? And they have some extremely high-INT members with all the manpower - or demon-power at their disposal.
- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane?
- Gating in Solars (and other creatures) - do you think gating in creatures would not bring repercussions? I mean as for Solars, you are "stealing" them from a battle with ultimate evil. If I was a good god it'd get me sort of a angry, that some dougchebag with a wizard hat is borrowing my angels.
- Similarly for demons ...

Also, do you think, a batman-killer monster could be made? I fooled around a bit and made this thing, but am really unsure if it would get the job done. It is a silly monster, of course, ...

RUIN SWARM (augmented)
Size/Type: Tiny Vermin (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 50d8+500 (725 hp)
Initiative: +16
Speed: 20 ft., climb 20 ft., fly 220 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 30 (+2 size, +16 Dex, +2 natural), touch 28, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +37/—
Attack: Swarm (5d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (5d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Blinding, distraction (DC 45)
Special Qualities: Blindsense, fast healing 15, regeneration 40, swarm traits, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +37, Ref +34, Will +22
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 42, Con 30, Int —, Wis 23, Cha 32
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, cloud (2–4 swarms), or plague (5–8 swarms)
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: —
COMBAT

Antimagic Field (Ex)
A Ruin swarm constantly generates an antimagic field in a 100-foot-radius. The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the swarms’s own supernatural abilities. This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 51th-level caster.
Blinding (Ex)Any living creature that begins its turn with a ruin swarm in its space must make a fortitude save (DC 51) or be blinded for one round. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
Blindsense (Ex): The ruin swarm notices and locates creatures within 9000 ft. Opponents still have 100% concealment against the swarm (but swarm attacks ignore concealment).
Distraction (Ex): Any living creature vulnerable to the swarm’s damage that begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; a DC 45 fortitude save negates the effect. Even with a successful save, spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills requiring patience and concentration requires a Concentration check (DC 20). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Psi-Like Abilities At will—trace teleport, psionic teleport (DC 19)
Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the ruin swarm.
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons.
Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or fewer causes the swarm to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple another.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects if the swarm has an intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes a –10 penalty on saving throws against spells or effects that affect an area, such as many evocation spells or grenadelike weapons. If the area effect attack does not allow a saving throw, the swarm takes double damage instead.
A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not re-form until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.
Vermin Traits: A ruin swarm is immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). It also has darkvision (60-foot range).

I was thinking maybe also True seeing, Disjunction-at will, all energy-type immunityes and Magic immunity.
Point is, that it is due to AMF/Magic immunity immune to most spells, and due to its swarm type also to Creations. Swarm type also makes it immune to PaO bombardment. Any creature (summon) engages it in AMF, which is really bad for summons. Astral projection is at least supressed, and if Wiz teleports out of a battlefield, it is traced by trace teleport and followed to anywhere he is going.

I think even all those contingencies should run out eventually.

Logalmier
2010-11-13, 04:15 PM
- Why do demons not take over all planes? (Except, say, Sigil?) There is after all an infinite amount of them? And they have some extremely high-INT members with all the manpower - or demon-power at their disposal.
- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane?
- Gating in Solars (and other creatures) - do you think gating in creatures would not bring repercussions? I mean as for Solars, you are "stealing" them from a battle with ultimate evil. If I was a good god it'd get me sort of a angry, that some dougchebag with a wizard hat is borrowing my angels.
- Similarly for demons ...

-I think the blood war keeps the Devils and Demons too busy to conquer the other planes. Which is fortunate.

-No.

-So what the angels should do is take time out of their busy schedule fighting evil to pursue petty revenge?

Okay...

-Demons I think is more of an issue. You have to be more careful with demons and make sure that they won't come back to haunt you. This ranges from intimidation, to vaporization, to assessing how lazy a demon is.

Private-Prinny
2010-11-13, 04:17 PM
- Why do demons not take over all planes? (Except, say, Sigil?) There is after all an infinite amount of them? And they have some extremely high-INT members with all the manpower - or demon-power at their disposal.

I'm pretty sure* that either devils or demons could take on the Upper Planes, but both sides are too distracted on account of the Blood War.

*Note: I am no expert on D&D cosmology. I could easily be wrong.


- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane?

Considering there are numerous extraplanar creatures with 18+ Int, I'd say no. Creatures on your level would not be hard to find.


- Gating in Solars (and other creatures) - do you think gating in creatures would not bring repercussions? I mean as for Solars, you are "stealing" them from a battle with ultimate evil. If I was a good god it'd get me sort of a angry, that some douchebag with a wizard hat is borrowing my angels.
- Similarly for demons ...

I'm pretty sure* that there are an infinite number of both Angels and Demons, so borrowing a few probably would not raise any red flags. Devils, on the other hand, might not be too happy.

*See above note.


Also, do you think, a batman-killer monster could be made? I fooled around a bit and made this thing, but am really unsure if it would get the job done. It is a silly monster, of course, ...

Sadly, I think that thing could still be conquered by hordes of Angels. They're called creatures, not summons, so they wouldn't wink out in the field. Plus, the whole concept of a "Batman-killer Monster" doesn't work too well, since melee is equally screwed when you take away their magic items.

You're also missing the basic duty of monsters in the first place. To provide a tough, but winnable challenge. If you're going to use a walking TPK that you can't kill, stall, or escape from with anything short of Pun-Pun, it would probably be faster to squirt them with a spray bottle the second they start rolling up one of the Big 5.

AslanCross
2010-11-13, 05:10 PM
- Why do demons not take over all planes? (Except, say, Sigil?) There is after all an infinite amount of them? And they have some extremely high-INT members with all the manpower - or demon-power at their disposal.

Even if they might have intelligent members, they're disorganized and impulsive. They don't really exist for long term goals. The most organized of the demon lords is Graz'zt, who is more concerned about conquering the Abyss than everything else.

There's also the Blood War, wherein the far more organized and militaristic devils can fight off even overwhelming odds. A little order goes a long way. In the devils' case, a lot of order goes a very long way.



- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane?

Just by being the upper 1 percentile of humans? Why? There are far more interesting ways to go insane (the Far Realm, exposure to demons, sheer depravity). Simply saying "You're too smart. You're therefore insane." isn't going to make for a fun game.

A highly intelligent character might not seem to make sense to other people, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is insane.



- Gating in Solars (and other creatures) - do you think gating in creatures would not bring repercussions? I mean as for Solars, you are "stealing" them from a battle with ultimate evil. If I was a good god it'd get me sort of a angry, that some dougchebag with a wizard hat is borrowing my angels.

That's up to the DM to decide. I'd think that the only person interested in gating in a Solar would be a good character, so I think it would be fine. Besides, the effort a Solar would need to perform whatever a character needed would be fairly minor (they DO have 20th level cleric casting).

I also daresay the Material Plane is actually the ultimate battlefield between good and evil, because the battle there wins hearts and souls of mortals, which matter more in the long run than a bunch of anthropomorphic ideals beating each other up. (Depending on your cosmology at least)


- Similarly for demons ...

...demons don't really care. As long as they get to rip someone's guts out, they're happy.


Also, do you think, a batman-killer monster could be made? I fooled around a bit and made this thing, but am really unsure if it would get the job done. It is a silly monster, of course, ...

RUIN SWARM (augmented)
Size/Type: Tiny Vermin (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 50d8+500 (725 hp)
Initiative: +16
Speed: 20 ft., climb 20 ft., fly 220 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 30 (+2 size, +16 Dex, +2 natural), touch 28, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +37/—
Attack: Swarm (5d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (5d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Blinding, distraction (DC 45)
Special Qualities: Blindsense, fast healing 15, regeneration 40, swarm traits, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +37, Ref +34, Will +22
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 42, Con 30, Int —, Wis 23, Cha 32
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, cloud (2–4 swarms), or plague (5–8 swarms)
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: —
COMBAT

Antimagic Field (Ex)
A Ruin swarm constantly generates an antimagic field in a 100-foot-radius. The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the swarms’s own supernatural abilities. This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 51th-level caster.
Blinding (Ex)Any living creature that begins its turn with a ruin swarm in its space must make a fortitude save (DC 51) or be blinded for one round. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
Blindsense (Ex): The ruin swarm notices and locates creatures within 9000 ft. Opponents still have 100% concealment against the swarm (but swarm attacks ignore concealment).
Distraction (Ex): Any living creature vulnerable to the swarm’s damage that begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; a DC 45 fortitude save negates the effect. Even with a successful save, spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills requiring patience and concentration requires a Concentration check (DC 20). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Psi-Like Abilities At will—trace teleport, psionic teleport (DC 19)
Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the ruin swarm.
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons.
Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or fewer causes the swarm to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple another.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects if the swarm has an intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes a –10 penalty on saving throws against spells or effects that affect an area, such as many evocation spells or grenadelike weapons. If the area effect attack does not allow a saving throw, the swarm takes double damage instead.
A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not re-form until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.
Vermin Traits: A ruin swarm is immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). It also has darkvision (60-foot range).

I was thinking maybe also True seeing, Disjunction-at will, all energy-type immunityes and Magic immunity.
Point is, that it is due to AMF/Magic immunity immune to most spells, and due to its swarm type also to Creations. Swarm type also makes it immune to PaO bombardment. Any creature (summon) engages it in AMF, which is really bad for summons. Astral projection is at least supressed, and if Wiz teleports out of a battlefield, it is traced by trace teleport and followed to anywhere he is going.

I think even all those contingencies should run out eventually.

Eh, sure. But why would you want to kill batman, with at-will disjunction no less? Disjunction is the spell that makes everyone angry. Use it on players and they'll use it on you.
Besides, the ruin swarm is an epic monster. By then the Wizard has Epic Casting, wherein a Wizard can create a Solar System via a standard action. :P

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-13, 07:01 PM
- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane?

I don't think insanity works the way you think it works. :smallsigh:

Psyren
2010-11-13, 07:08 PM
I'm sensing a touch of wizard-hate from the OP :smalltongue:

Eldan
2010-11-13, 07:11 PM
Two things keeping the demons in check:


First of all, they can't get organized. For every one of them willing to take over the multiverse, there's one trying to kill him, another one trying to watch them kill each other and one just trying to sit around the abyss relaxing.
Second, and more important: they can't leave the abyss unless summoned. And no one will ever summon infinite demons to the upper planes.

Lev
2010-11-13, 07:27 PM
Really clever demons, the ones who will take over, are the ones you don't immediately realize are demons.

An empress might be a succubi, a king might be a fiendish dragon.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-13, 07:27 PM
- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane?

Everything else has been covered to an extent that I can't add anything important to, but I might help with this one. Many ordinary humans are at this level of Intelligence. As in, about one in two-hundred-and-a-bit has an eighteen naturally, discounting many more who get to (and past) that point through aging bonuses. No, they should not be insane. They may appear to be sometimes to those who cannot think as fast or as in-depth as they can but insanity is generally linked to poor (and I mean 1 to 3, here) Wisdom, no other stat is ever mentioned as regards insanity and insanity-causing things reference Wisdom for nothing more than Will saves.

PCs should not be penalised for high stats. A Wizard should not go insane from high (not even superhuman) Intelligence, just as a Fighter should not accidentally bend his weapons and armour out of shape if they have high Strength. It might apply for a short time after donning a magic item increasing the score by four or more, but that's hours at most, not very severe and likely doesn't apply again for the same stat unless they get the item taken away having worn it constantly for months or more (not all that likely unless the PCs are very paranoid).

Tvtyrant
2010-11-13, 09:09 PM
Demons could not defeat the Planes if they wanted to, they do want to and their previous attempts have failed. Remember that the Demons have to deal with the Good, Neutral and Lawful Evil gods if they want to destroy the multi-verse, as well as the Devils who were designed/evolved to defeat them. The issue with the Blood War is that most of the forces of good became evil after millennial wide conflicts; if the Demons defeat the Devils there aren't enough good angels to win again, and if the Devils defeat the Demons then they don't have a reason to exist anymore and a war between Hell and Heaven will happen. No one wants that to happen, and there are groups like the Daemons who actively work to keep the sides balanced.

The only way the Blood War could be upsetted would be either Asmodeous dying (causing Hell to fall into a giant Civil War like the Abyss) or one of the Demon Lords killing off his/her rivals and uniting the Abyss (though either would cause Hell and Heaven to reunite against the Abyss as in primeval times, and status quo would be forcibly maintained. Remember that the Obyrith and Tannari were united once, and still lost to the combined powers of Law.)

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-13, 10:26 PM
Second, and more important: they can't leave the abyss unless summoned. And no one will ever summon infinite demons to the upper planes.

The Abyss is not a prison. Demons can leave any time they want by going through a portal, being called by a gate spell, or using plane shift magic, just like any other creature. How do you think the demons keep mounting invasions into the first layer of Hell?

Eldan
2010-11-14, 07:37 AM
The Abyss is not a prison. Demons can leave any time they want by going through a portal, being called by a gate spell, or using plane shift magic, just like any other creature. How do you think the demons keep mounting invasions into the first layer of Hell?

Yes, it is. Like all native planar creatures, exemplars or petitioners, the demons are limited in the planes they can access without being let in. For the demons, similar to the Baatezu, this includes the lower planes, where most of the Blood War happens. But the prime, the upper, inner and transitive planes, are off-limits to them.

I mean, why do you think they need mortals summoning them in the first place?

Adamaro
2010-11-14, 07:41 AM
@Psyren
Just thinking how to let people powergame on high-levels and still make something of a challenge for them.

@Private-Prinny
As for solars: They can be gated in, but in AMF, they no longer have
+5 dancing greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (3d6+18/19-20) but only common greatsword with 3d6+9, also to-hits are far reduced, no spells, no spell-like abilities. So those hordes of angels would be IMHO slowly but surely grinded to oblivion.
And yeah, ruin swarm is epic, but as for wizard, I add +15 or more CR with no bad consience. Powers go to extreme at lvl 20 let alone on epic lvls.

Dr.Epic
2010-11-14, 08:04 AM
- Why do demons not take over all planes? (Except, say, Sigil?) There is after all an infinite amount of them? And they have some extremely high-INT members with all the manpower - or demon-power at their disposal.
- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane?
- Gating in Solars (and other creatures) - do you think gating in creatures would not bring repercussions? I mean as for Solars, you are "stealing" them from a battle with ultimate evil. If I was a good god it'd get me sort of a angry, that some dougchebag with a wizard hat is borrowing my angels.
- Similarly for demons ...

-Too internal quarrels to all be on the same side, not to mention who arguments about how would hold power.

-No

-I don't think transporting a few would make a huge difference.

Morithias
2010-11-14, 08:16 AM
Everything else has been covered to an extent that I can't add anything important to, but I might help with this one. Many ordinary humans are at this level of Intelligence. As in, about one in two-hundred-and-a-bit has an eighteen naturally, discounting many more who get to (and past) that point through aging bonuses. No, they should not be insane. They may appear to be sometimes to those who cannot think as fast or as in-depth as they can but insanity is generally linked to poor (and I mean 1 to 3, here) Wisdom, no other stat is ever mentioned as regards insanity and insanity-causing things reference Wisdom for nothing more than Will saves.

PCs should not be penalised for high stats. A Wizard should not go insane from high (not even superhuman) Intelligence, just as a Fighter should not accidentally bend his weapons and armour out of shape if they have high Strength. It might apply for a short time after donning a magic item increasing the score by four or more, but that's hours at most, not very severe and likely doesn't apply again for the same stat unless they get the item taken away having worn it constantly for months or more (not all that likely unless the PCs are very paranoid).

However I have to slightly disagree. Many intelligence people do not suffer from 'insanity' per say, but more depression. This is commonly referred to as the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Namely a dumb person doesn't realize how small they are on a mass scale, while a smart person realizes how really little they matter.

Personally I always found the idea of a hero/villain wizard with huge amounts of knowledge (planes) to be an oxymoron. Once you realize that the most basic rule of the universe is that it is ALWAYS in balance in terms of good/evil/law/chaos. Why would you bother trying to become a great hero or villain? The very nature of the universe itself means you will never change anything.

And don't get me started on the whole "Earth prime" "every choice makes two time streams so in reality we're like one in a trillion plus worlds" thing, which means that even if you destroy the world you did nothing, since there's another world where you decided NOT to.

Psyren
2010-11-14, 10:24 AM
@Psyren
Just thinking how to let people powergame on high-levels and still make something of a challenge for them.

"People?" or "Wzards?" :smallwink:

All of your questions beyond the first seem geared at wizards to me. High-int characters potentially going insane, "douchebags with wizard hats" being punished for using Gate (for reasons that a cleric would arguably not be), a homebrew "batman-killer monster," designed to trace teleports and burn through contingencies etc.

I'm just saying there are other high-level casters after all. And Private-Prinny is right, that thing is just a waste of everyone's time - you might as well just burn everyone's character sheet as release a monster like that.

Eldan
2010-11-14, 10:38 AM
Personally I always found the idea of a hero/villain wizard with huge amounts of knowledge (planes) to be an oxymoron. Once you realize that the most basic rule of the universe is that it is ALWAYS in balance in terms of good/evil/law/chaos. Why would you bother trying to become a great hero or villain? The very nature of the universe itself means you will never change anything.


Where doe sit say that? Convince enough mortals that there is no evil/good/law/chaos, and there is no evil/good/law/chaos.

mikau013
2010-11-14, 10:51 AM
- Why do demons not take over all planes? (Except, say, Sigil?) There is after all an infinite amount of them? And they have some extremely high-INT members with all the manpower - or demon-power at their disposal.
<snip>

They already have of course! The thing is they are smart enough not to let anyone catch on. And you know actually having conquered the world is actually terribly boring, because there is no challenge anymore :smallcool:

Morithias
2010-11-14, 11:04 AM
Where doe sit say that? Convince enough mortals that there is no evil/good/law/chaos, and there is no evil/good/law/chaos.

The whole "wheel" thing in the DMG. I'm pretty sure it was stated in one of the planar books too. It's at least that way in Greyhawk which is the 'general' setting.

Urpriest
2010-11-14, 11:09 AM
The whole "wheel" thing in the DMG. I'm pretty sure it was stated in one of the planar books too. It's at least that way in Greyhawk which is the 'general' setting.

And the current existence of the wheel necessitates future balance because...?

Radar
2010-11-14, 12:21 PM
The monster might have high numbers and a whole lot of immunities, but it's not challenging. If the wizard doesn't feel like taking the swarm down, he'll just Celerity -> Plane Shift away. If you actually want to kill the PCs, then send a Neutronium Golem, at least it won't fall to a Prismatic Sphere (the swarm will eventually fail it's will save against planeshifting).

Challenge doesn't lie in high numbers. Think, why wizards are so powerful? They have options, defences and can break action economy. A well build charger deals loads more damage then the wizard, yet he is not as powerful. Also: at high levels combat is the last resort - when a battle between two powers would tear a big chunk of reality apart, you have to be more subtle.

Callista
2010-11-14, 12:26 PM
- Why do demons not take over all planes? (Except, say, Sigil?) There is after all an infinite amount of them? And they have some extremely high-INT members with all the manpower - or demon-power at their disposal.They aren't organized enough. Demons are chaotic and constantly fighting each other as well as the devils and any celestials they can get their claws on.


- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane?No. He would likely be socially isolated, though, and become eccentric. I do think that it wouldn't happen at INT 18, though, or even INT 20; while people on those levels are extraordinary, they can still communicate with everyone else. Once you get into the mid-twenties and higher, and people are casually creating entire branches of mathematics to solve a problem they encountered (Isaac Newton, anyone?), then you're going to get a lot of social distance, eccentricity, and a general sense that this person isn't quite part of his home culture because he's just so different from everyone else.


- Gating in Solars (and other creatures) - do you think gating in creatures would not bring repercussions? I mean as for Solars, you are "stealing" them from a battle with ultimate evil. If I was a good god it'd get me sort of a angry, that some dougchebag with a wizard hat is borrowing my angels.Depends on what you're borrowing them for. If you've called them into your own battle with evil, chances are no one will be annoyed with you. For that matter, maybe they maintain an "on call" pool of Solars that can answer Gate spells.


- Similarly for demons ... Similar to above. But they're much more likely to attempt to transform you into minced wizard if you disrespect them. Solars would only do so if you forced them to, say, burn down an orphanage or something.

Adamaro
2010-11-14, 12:40 PM
@Radar
Planeshifting thing is solved by Trace teleport.


at least it won't fall to a Prismatic Sphere (the swarm will eventually fail it's will save against planeshifting)

I see that disjunction-at will - hmm - disjunction field? is a must.

What sort of saves are related to planeshifting?

Boci
2010-11-14, 12:44 PM
@Radar
Planeshifting thing is solved by Trace teleport.

Does that allow the creature to follow the wizard to the new plane?

Radar
2010-11-14, 01:34 PM
I see that disjunction-at will - hmm - disjunction field? is a must.
It isn't a must and it's not even a good idea. If we are talking about that level of cheese, then the wizard has an adamantine Tinfoil Hat and an auto-repeating trap of Repair Critical Damage. Good luck with that. Also: Force Dragons (that was the name?)


What sort of saves are related to planeshifting?
Will save.

Once again: if you want to challenge a full caster, you can't just say "Ha, ha, you can't do anything against this creature". That's never a challenge - it's a convoluted "Rocks Fall (TM), everybody dies". You either have to be better at their own game, or pose a problem that cannot be solved directly. Typically the PCs are forced to act because of some vilains scheme. This means, that it's not a problem, when a wizard is unstopable. Stoping the vilain might still be difficult.
Consider a The Joker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158) type of a character. He can't outfight the wizard, but he doesn't have to, to still be a threat. It also makes a much better game.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-14, 03:08 PM
Yes, it is. Like all native planar creatures, exemplars or petitioners, the demons are limited in the planes they can access without being let in. For the demons, similar to the Baatezu, this includes the lower planes, where most of the Blood War happens. But the prime, the upper, inner and transitive planes, are off-limits to them.

I mean, why do you think they need mortals summoning them in the first place?

They don't need to be summoned at all. Summoning demons is purely for the benefit of the (usually evil) mortals doing the summoning. Also, you didn't answer my question of how do the demons invade Hell (which they do) if they can't leave the Abyss.

There simply are no rules nor fluff texts in any book I have read that says that demons (or other Outsiders) cannot use the same planar portals that other creatures can use, or are in any other way limited to staying in one place. Where are you getting this information?

Eldan
2010-11-14, 03:12 PM
Planescape Monstrous Compendium, Faces of Evil, the Bloodwar boxed set. And since I've never seen any source that said that they could use normal ways of travelling in 3.X, I'll treat these sources as still in effect.

Claudius Maximus
2010-11-14, 03:17 PM
From what I remember from MotP and the Fiendish Codices, they can use whatever means they want, it's just that portals out are very rare, and thus typically crafted by agents in the destination (like mortal cultists). And they can reach any lower plane by the River Styx. So Eldan is half right according to my recollection - they can sure use help getting around, but they don't always require it.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-14, 03:21 PM
There's still nothing stopping a demon from casting a plane shift spell, no matter what he says. There's also nothing anywhere in 3.x that says stuff still works the way it did in 2nd Edition, so making that assumption is a house rule. (Plus, not everyone played 2nd Edition.)

Eldan
2010-11-14, 03:27 PM
I also never played AD&D, I just used the fluff because I like it more. Amongst other things, it provides a convenient answer for just the question this thread is asking, and for why fiends actually need cultists.

And yes, they can use the River Styx. But that only allows travel from Pandemonium to Acheron.

Mastikator
2010-11-14, 03:40 PM
- Why do demons not take over all planes? (Except, say, Sigil?) There is after all an infinite amount of them? And they have some extremely high-INT members with all the manpower - or demon-power at their disposal.
Demons are not allied to each other. They are busy fighting themselves as well as the devils and the angels. Despite this they are indeed continually bringing the battle field to all the other planes.
Also, demons are not interested in "taking over" anything. Their primary wish is to destroy everything that is good and simply wreck up the place. They are beings of pure chaos and pure evil, they don't cooperate, or plan ahead, or work for some "greater evil". They have no purpose, just the unending wish to destroy.

- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane? Yes. Insane is not a clearly defined term.

- Gating in Solars (and other creatures) - do you think gating in creatures would not bring repercussions? I mean as for Solars, you are "stealing" them from a battle with ultimate evil. If I was a good god it'd get me sort of a angry, that some dougchebag with a wizard hat is borrowing my angels. Obviously. You better have an explanation for the angel (or bribe for devil) if you gate them in.

- Similarly for demons ... Demons will eat you once you no longer control them via gate.

Eldan
2010-11-14, 03:48 PM
Of course demons have purpose and direction. Of course they plan. They may be more flexible about it than the Baatezu, less disciplined, less likely to stick to the plan, but they will make plans. How else would someone like Demogorgon or Graz'zt ever stay in power? They are chaotic, not stupid. Not all of them want to destroy, a good part of them will want to rule.

faceroll
2010-11-14, 03:57 PM
Sadly, I think that thing could still be conquered by hordes of Angels.

Without an AoE attack, I don't think the angel can do anything to it. Elementals, maybe.


Eh, sure. But why would you want to kill batman, with at-will disjunction no less? Disjunction is the spell that makes everyone angry. Use it on players and they'll use it on you.

MDJ is like sunder on steroids. They're going to seriously nerf their loot if they spam it.


Once you get into the mid-twenties and higher, and people are casually creating entire branches of mathematics to solve a problem they encountered (Isaac Newton, anyone?),

Isaac Newton wasn't mid-twenties. Maybe he eventually got to 20 at old age, but his famous period he had 19 int, tops. He just has really poor charisma. Leibniz invented his own branch of math, but he didn't dump charisma.

Mastikator
2010-11-14, 04:22 PM
Of course demons have purpose and direction. Of course they plan. They may be more flexible about it than the Baatezu, less disciplined, less likely to stick to the plan, but they will make plans. How else would someone like Demogorgon or Graz'zt ever stay in power? They are chaotic, not stupid. Not all of them want to destroy, a good part of them will want to rule.

They rule by sheer force. They are the very embodyment of chaos. It's as likely for a demon to stick to a plan (or have a plan) as it is to help someone out of the goodness of their heart. They don't "work" like mortals, they always act chaotically, no matter the context.
Being whimsical and disorganized isn't stupidity.

Eldan
2010-11-14, 04:23 PM
Of course demons plan. They have cults, they build fortresses, they rule cities... how is that supposed to work without some plans? Chaotic creatures can plan.

faceroll
2010-11-14, 04:25 PM
They rule by sheer force. They are the very embodyment of chaos. It's as likely for a demon to stick to a plan (or have a plan) as it is to help someone out of the goodness of their heart. They don't "work" like mortals, they always act chaotically, no matter the context.
Being whimsical and disorganized isn't stupidity.

Actually, they aren't the very embodiment of chaos. The obyrinth lords are, but the tanari are not. The tanari have been "tainted" during the rise of mortals, as can be seen in their largely bipedal humanoid forms. This is detailed in Fiendish Codex I.

hamishspence
2010-11-14, 04:27 PM
Ironically, some of the obyriths are exceptionally good plotters and schemers.

Dagon, Pazuzu, Pale Night, etc.

In 4E, the obyriths became closer to "pure evil" than "pure chaos"- in Demonomicon.

Eldan
2010-11-14, 04:32 PM
Well, since they ruined the 'loth in 4E, I guess they needed something to fill that niche.

Adamaro
2010-11-14, 04:33 PM
@Radar
You can keep your scheeeming and planing to yourself. My plan is to burn trough all those contingencies, tinfoil hats and other sillyness that batmans use. I also made up a nice name for this thing ... A Hound of Wee-Jas - a creature, especially made to hunt down and kill extremely powerfull casters. I see something special will be needed for this tinfoil thing ... hmmm.

Antimagic spores (Ex) Every turn, space in radius of 500 feet from the centre of the Hound of Wee-Jas is filled with construct-type spores, emanating AMF. Every turn, additional 500 feet are filled with AMF spores.

Hat falls, spores are in it. AMF remains.

Also, listen to this, untill you agree with my point of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gGG4fpGB_w
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

faceroll
2010-11-14, 04:35 PM
@Radar
You can keep your scheeeming and planing to yourself. My plan is to burn trough all those contingencies, tinfoil hats and other sillyness that batmans use. I also made up a nice name for this thing ... A Hound of Wee-Jas - a creature, especially made to hunt down and kill extremely powerfull casters. I see something special will be needed for this tinfoil thing ... hmmm.

Antimagic spores (Ex) Every turn, space in radius of 500 feet from the centre of the Hound of Wee-Jas is filled with construct-type spores, emanating AMF. Every turn, additional 500 feet are filled with AMF spores.

Hat falls, spores are in it. AMF remains.

Also, listen to this, untill you agree with my point of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gGG4fpGB_w
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Don't do emanations, do spreads. Emanation is blocked by LoE, spreads are not.

Urpriest
2010-11-14, 04:37 PM
Antimagic spores (Ex) Every turn, space in radius of 500 feet from the centre of the Hound of Wee-Jas is filled with construct-type spores, emanating AMF. Every turn, additional 500 feet are filled with AMF spores.


I'd be very leery of having there be an Ex: teleport ability. It sets a very bad precedent.

hamishspence
2010-11-14, 05:01 PM
Well, since they ruined the 'loth in 4E, I guess they needed something to fill that niche.

Arcanoloths got split off from the others, as "ravaastas" and the rest got named more like they were in 1st ed- with slight modifications.

"mezzodemons" rather than "mezzodaemons"

faceroll
2010-11-14, 05:02 PM
I'd be very leery of having there be an Ex: teleport ability. It sets a very bad precedent.

ToB already did it.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-14, 05:08 PM
ToB already did it.

As far as I am aware (and you can check this on the Wizard's site if you like, I'm going from what I read in the recent ToB thread) that is only within line of sight and line of effect. No going past solid objects, even if you can see through them.

Eldan
2010-11-14, 05:09 PM
Arcanoloths got split off from the others, as "ravaastas" and the rest got named more like they were in 1st ed- with slight modifications.

"mezzodemons" rather than "mezzodaemons"

Yes, I know. I prefer Mezzoloth, though. They are still my favourite fiends.

hamishspence
2010-11-14, 05:21 PM
They do look rather good, and have a certain style.

Eldan
2010-11-14, 05:23 PM
Well, I meant Yugoloths overall. Not Mezzoloths. All-time favourites would probably be Arcanoloths.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-14, 05:30 PM
There simply are no rules nor fluff texts in any book I have read that says that demons (or other Outsiders) cannot use the same planar portals that other creatures can use, or are in any other way limited to staying in one place. Where are you getting this information?

Hordes of the Abyss states that beyond the first few layers there are nor direct planar portals out of the abyss or to the first layer. Also the portals on layer one switch directions randomly and rapidly, so sending an army through them is not going to go well, since some of them empty into the negative energy plane or the positive energy plane, both of which are going to kill you. I could find the exact quote but it would take forever.

Oh and for the record, of all of the core demons, none of them except the Bebilith has plane shift. Not even Balors. The implications of this are immediate I think. Also, the bebillith is the demon-spider that eats other demons, so they don't exactly help your case.

olentu
2010-11-14, 05:35 PM
@Radar
You can keep your scheeeming and planing to yourself. My plan is to burn trough all those contingencies, tinfoil hats and other sillyness that batmans use. I also made up a nice name for this thing ... A Hound of Wee-Jas - a creature, especially made to hunt down and kill extremely powerfull casters. I see something special will be needed for this tinfoil thing ... hmmm.

Antimagic spores (Ex) Every turn, space in radius of 500 feet from the centre of the Hound of Wee-Jas is filled with construct-type spores, emanating AMF. Every turn, additional 500 feet are filled with AMF spores.

Hat falls, spores are in it. AMF remains.

Also, listen to this, untill you agree with my point of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gGG4fpGB_w
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Or you know you could make a monster that does not mess up noncasters magic items. Say

Stuff(Ex): every round all creatures within the same plane as the insert creature here that have spell slots die and can not be returned from the dead by any means. Nothing at all can prevent this death (this supersedes all rules to the contrary). Any creature that touches the corpse of a creature slain by this ability may destroy it to create any one magic item of any value as a free action.

Now just slap that on a 1 HP creature with no attack or ability to move or do anything and you have the perfect anticaster that does not mess up noncasters.

faceroll
2010-11-14, 05:35 PM
As far as I am aware (and you can check this on the Wizard's site if you like, I'm going from what I read in the recent ToB thread) that is only within line of sight and line of effect. No going past solid objects, even if you can see through them.

Regardless, it's still a [teleport] effect and it is Ex.



Oh and for the record, of all of the core demons, none of them except the Bebilith has plane shift. Not even Balors. The implications of this are immediate I think. Also, the bebillith is the demon-spider that eats other demons, so they don't exactly help your case.

Eh, there are still items of plane shift, ranks in UMD, and caster levels to fix that.

Private-Prinny
2010-11-14, 05:58 PM
@Radar
You can keep your scheeeming and planing to yourself. My plan is to burn trough all those contingencies, tinfoil hats and other sillyness that batmans use. I also made up a nice name for this thing ... A Hound of Wee-Jas - a creature, especially made to hunt down and kill extremely powerfull casters. I see something special will be needed for this tinfoil thing ... hmmm.

Antimagic spores (Ex) Every turn, space in radius of 500 feet from the centre of the Hound of Wee-Jas is filled with construct-type spores, emanating AMF. Every turn, additional 500 feet are filled with AMF spores.

Hat falls, spores are in it. AMF remains.

Also, listen to this, untill you agree with my point of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gGG4fpGB_w
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I maintain that the newspaper/spray bottle combo would be faster and less of a power trip. Are you trying to get any casters at your table to leave your group?

faceroll
2010-11-14, 05:59 PM
I maintain that the newspaper/spray bottle combo would be faster and less of a power trip. Are you trying to get any casters at your table to leave your group?

Not any casters, just the foolish ones that believe because they read it on the internet, they get to be invincible paragons of magic.

Eldan
2010-11-14, 06:00 PM
yeah... you'll only achieve that no one will play a caster.

And that means that they get WTFPWNED by anything level-appropriate.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-14, 06:16 PM
Eh, there are still items of plane shift, ranks in UMD, and caster levels to fix that.

Demons are chaotic, fluff wise there is almost not way to argue they could spend hours sitting still and studying each day. The items would have to come from said casters, and the ranks in UMD are dependent on the items. Yeah, there might be a few casters floating around the abyss, but the vast majority are stuck there.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-15, 05:00 AM
Fine, I don't care anymore. :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

Radar
2010-11-15, 05:37 AM
Or you know you could make a monster that does not mess up noncasters magic items. Say

Stuff(Ex): every round all creatures within the same plane as the insert creature here that have spell slots die and can not be returned from the dead by any means. Nothing at all can prevent this death (this supersedes all rules to the contrary). Any creature that touches the corpse of a creature slain by this ability may destroy it to create any one magic item of any value as a free action.

Now just slap that on a 1 HP creature with no attack or ability to move or do anything and you have the perfect anticaster that does not mess up noncasters.
True, the funny thing is, that this swarm would go down to a Holy Word cast by an Initiate of Mystra. Or a Shadow Weave user. Or a Psion. The only characters completly wiped would be non-casters (meybe some ToB builds would survive).
It also doesn't stop a wizard from Celerity -> Planeshifting away. Why not a Neutronium Golem (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Neutronium_golem) (and those things aren't unkillable either)?

edit: correction: that would have to be an Initiate of Mystra Dweomerkeeper to overcome SR. The others stand.

faceroll
2010-11-15, 09:48 PM
Demons are chaotic, fluff wise there is almost not way to argue they could spend hours sitting still and studying each day. The items would have to come from said casters, and the ranks in UMD are dependent on the items. Yeah, there might be a few casters floating around the abyss, but the vast majority are stuck there.

It doesn't matter where the scrolls of plane shift come from, such scrolls exist, the demons want them, and there are plenty of ways for the demons to get such scrolls.

Also, a small minority of aleph1 is still a lot of demons.

Logalmier
2010-11-15, 10:22 PM
Yes, if you make a monster specifically designed to shut down a wizards class features so that they cannot function at all, the wizard might lose. What is that proving...?

Note that I said might lose. Wizards are so powerful and have so many options, that if well played, they could avoid this wizard killer you've created. I doubt the fighter would fare the same if you made a monster designed specifically to kill fighters.

Eldan
2010-11-16, 04:21 AM
You don't even need a monster specifically created to kill fighters. Pretty much every monster can do that.

Adamaro
2010-11-16, 04:48 AM
@Logalmier
It is proving that batmans are overpowered. And may prove, that you have a batman fetish. But that is really besides the point. I want something, some sort of a monster, that will be able to TPK lvl 20 tier 1.

@olentu
I like the scope you are thinking in.

But maybe I should yust pimp-out my batman skills.:smallbiggrin:

Boci
2010-11-16, 04:53 AM
I want something, some sort of a monster, that will be able to TPK lvl 20 tier 1.

And evidently you've found a monster that can. DM fiat.

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 05:00 AM
@Logalmier
It is proving that batmans are overpowered. And may prove, that you have a batman fetish. But that is really besides the point. I want something, some sort of a monster, that will be able to TPK lvl 20 tier 1.

Yeah, and what you're making doesn't sound or look like an interesting or fun challenge. It just looks like a long, drawn out way of saying "rocks fall, you die, I hate you for playing a wizard."

Callista
2010-11-16, 05:01 AM
Yeah, you want to challenge the party wizard, not kill him or make him feel useless. There's a difference.

Adamaro
2010-11-16, 05:07 AM
@Coidzor
The problem is, batman can still get out of this. I am pretty sure it can. So this is still not RFED moster. :smallbiggrin:

@Callista
I guess challenge would be ok. But there is not a single entity in all MMs that would even remotely challenge tier 1.

Eldan
2010-11-16, 05:13 AM
Part of the problem, I guess, is that at high optimization, and at high level, the game becomes all or nothing. Either you are immune to an effect, or it cripples you. You need Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, True Seeing, a defense against Disjunction, blanket energy immunities... so the game is now about winning initiative, attempting to dispel an enemy immunity or targeting the one thing he forgot to be immune against. Since any good tier 1 can have pretty much as many actions as he wants to during his turn, that's not a problem either.

Callista
2010-11-16, 05:16 AM
Yes. It really is all or nothing--you either have the immunity or you don't; you either have the spell prepared or you don't; you have the right weapon or you don't. High-level combat tends to be very brutal and very short, and spellcasters are almost always the key, because at some point, HP stop mattering nearly as much as saves and stats.

Radar
2010-11-16, 05:23 AM
(...)
@Callista
I guess challenge would be ok. But there is not a single entity in all MMs that would even remotely challenge tier 1.
That's why you can give them class levels. To challenge a caster in a fight, you need another caster, but is that much of a problem? Psions are a good choice thanks to their action economy advantages. A Pixie Warlock with Voracious Dispelling can be quite vicious as well (give it the suboptimal Eldrich Spear and snipe from a safe distance while invisible).

Adamaro
2010-11-16, 05:39 AM
@Radar
True. But as for batman, invisibility will be peirced by True seeing no problem and then solar pops in.

Do you suggest elder black dragon with 18 lvls of wizard? :smalltongue:

Boci
2010-11-16, 05:45 AM
@Radar
True. But as for batman, invisibility will be peirced by True seeing no problem and then solar pops in.

Check the range of true seeing (120ft). Plus he could also be hiding, and batman wizards are not famous for their spot checks. If they can hit them with glitterdust thats a -20 to the check, combined which the -20 for attacking could allow them to find the pixie, but find they need to know generally where they are.
They could summon/change into a monster with blindsight/sense, but the pixie could have darkstalker/be out of range. Scent is also an option but that is easy to foil.

Adamaro
2010-11-16, 05:47 AM
@Boci
This really does not sound bad.

Radar
2010-11-16, 07:28 AM
@Radar
True. But as for batman, invisibility will be peirced by True seeing no problem and then solar pops in.

Do you suggest elder black dragon with 18 lvls of wizard? :smalltongue:
It worked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), no? :smallsmile:

Rasman
2010-11-16, 08:00 AM
- Why do demons not take over all planes? (Except, say, Sigil?) There is after all an infinite amount of them? And they have some extremely high-INT members with all the manpower - or demon-power at their disposal.

as mentioned before, the Blood War is quite distracting and even though they are extremely intelligent, we have people on our side who are just as smart + Banishment is kinda a kick in the balls



- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane?
not with just an 18, maybe if he attained an intelligence so high that he knew all there was to know and it overloaded his brain...but that would have to be SIGNIFICANTLY high[/quote]



- Gating in Solars (and other creatures) - do you think gating in creatures would not bring repercussions? I mean as for Solars, you are "stealing" them from a battle with ultimate evil. If I was a good god it'd get me sort of a angry, that some dougchebag with a wizard hat is borrowing my angels.
- Similarly for demons ...

I think it's a tad insignificant for there to be worry about ONE or a handful of Solars, but considering the Chinese Proverb, "But a grain of sand can tip the balance" would suggest that even one soldier can tip the balance of war




Also, do you think, a batman-killer monster could be made? I fooled around a bit and made this thing, but am really unsure if it would get the job done. It is a silly monster, of course, ...

RUIN SWARM (augmented)
Size/Type: Tiny Vermin (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 50d8+500 (725 hp)
Initiative: +16
Speed: 20 ft., climb 20 ft., fly 220 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 30 (+2 size, +16 Dex, +2 natural), touch 28, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +37/—
Attack: Swarm (5d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (5d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Blinding, distraction (DC 45)
Special Qualities: Blindsense, fast healing 15, regeneration 40, swarm traits, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +37, Ref +34, Will +22
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 42, Con 30, Int —, Wis 23, Cha 32
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, cloud (2–4 swarms), or plague (5–8 swarms)
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: —
COMBAT

Antimagic Field (Ex)
A Ruin swarm constantly generates an antimagic field in a 100-foot-radius. The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the swarms’s own supernatural abilities. This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 51st-level caster.
Blinding (Ex)Any living creature that begins its turn with a ruin swarm in its space must make a fortitude save (DC 51) or be blinded for one round. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
Blindsense (Ex): The ruin swarm notices and locates creatures within 9000 ft. Opponents still have 100% concealment against the swarm (but swarm attacks ignore concealment).
Distraction (Ex): Any living creature vulnerable to the swarm’s damage that begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; a DC 45 fortitude save negates the effect. Even with a successful save, spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills requiring patience and concentration requires a Concentration check (DC 20). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Psi-Like Abilities At will—trace teleport, psionic teleport (DC 19)
Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the ruin swarm.
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons.
Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or fewer causes the swarm to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple another.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects if the swarm has an intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes a –10 penalty on saving throws against spells or effects that affect an area, such as many evocation spells or grenadelike weapons. If the area effect attack does not allow a saving throw, the swarm takes double damage instead.
A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not re-form until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.
Vermin Traits: A ruin swarm is immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). It also has darkvision (60-foot range).

I was thinking maybe also True seeing, Disjunction-at will, all energy-type immunityes and Magic immunity.
Point is, that it is due to AMF/Magic immunity immune to most spells, and due to its swarm type also to Creations. Swarm type also makes it immune to PaO bombardment. Any creature (summon) engages it in AMF, which is really bad for summons. Astral projection is at least supressed, and if Wiz teleports out of a battlefield, it is traced by trace teleport and followed to anywhere he is going.

I think even all those contingencies should run out eventually.

You know what Batman Wizard can do that you can't? I dare say hold his breath underwater longer. If you follow him deep enough, the swarm will eventually "drown" which actually kills it because it still has to breathe. All he has to do is teleport to an underwater safezone, have you follow him and die along the way or he can just take you with him. That's the only thing I can find that gets Batman out of this...so catch him on dry land in a desert.

Jack_Simth
2010-11-16, 08:23 AM
- Why do demons not take over all planes? (Except, say, Sigil?) There is after all an infinite amount of them? And they have some extremely high-INT members with all the manpower - or demon-power at their disposal.
Opposed by Devils, who are *also* infinite. Plus, you know, there are numerous infinite planes that have a non-zero Angel density, if you read the Planar Handbook, the Manual of the Planes, and I think it's even noted in the DMG (Confirmed: Ysgard, DMG page 158, is infinite, and uses the Beatific Encounters table - which includes Astral Devas, Planetars, Ghaelies, Leonals, and Avorals). So you've got multiple opposed infinities. Why would one get the upper hand, exactly?


- Do you think a human character of extreme intelligence (18+) would go insane? Under the 'right' conditions, yes; otherwise, no - same as anybody. Why do you ask?

- Gating in Solars (and other creatures) - do you think gating in creatures would not bring repercussions? I mean as for Solars, you are "stealing" them from a battle with ultimate evil. If I was a good god it'd get me sort of a angry, that some dougchebag with a wizard hat is borrowing my angels.
- Similarly for demons ...
Some critters would, some critters wouldn't. Depends on the critter, and what you have them doing. If you force a pit fiend to save orphans, there will probably be ... problems... and if you force a Solar to burn down an active orphanage with the kids inside, there will probably likewise be problems. However:

This is a matter of the personalities and proclivities of the critters involved - which is strictly under the DM purview, as they're NPC's. So really, you need to ask your DM, as we can't give a definitive answer - we're not the ones determining NPC personalities in your games.

Adamaro
2010-11-16, 10:23 AM
@Rasman
It is a construct. It does not need to breathe.


@Jack_Simth

Under the 'right' conditions, yes; otherwise, no - same as anybody. Why do you ask?
Because I would like to limit batmans in my games. This was an inspiration:
http://x-files.wikia.com/wiki/Eve_6
I think people just go insane/suicidal after certain INT score ...

Boci
2010-11-16, 10:25 AM
@Rasman
It is a construct. It does not need to breathe.

Not according to its stat block.

Psyren
2010-11-16, 10:28 AM
@Rasman
It is a construct. It does not need to breathe.

vermin != construct

Also, there's still no answer to Cheater of Mystra/Invoke Magic

Ormur
2010-11-16, 01:26 PM
Because I would like to limit batmans in my games. This was an inspiration:
http://x-files.wikia.com/wiki/Eve_6
I think people just go insane/suicidal after certain INT score ...

Enforcing insanity is a pretty underhanded way of dealing with batman wizards. It's a role play thing that should be determined by the player. Nerf the spells, restrict the campaign to certain tiers or better yet make a gentlemen's agreement with players of not breaking the game.

The idea that intelligence causes insanity is also just not very sound to begin with. There may be a correlation but that doesn't equal causation.

Rasman
2010-11-17, 03:07 AM
@Rasman
It is a construct. It does not need to breathe.


well, blows my logic...

...but it says it's Vermin...I don't see construct anywhere...

Jack_Simth
2010-11-17, 08:00 AM
Because I would like to limit batmans in my games. This was an inspiration:
http://x-files.wikia.com/wiki/Eve_6
I think people just go insane/suicidal after certain INT score ...
So, basically, you want to punish players who pick strong options.

You're taking the wrong route, really.

Psyren
2010-11-17, 08:35 AM
Because I would like to limit batmans in my games.

Totally called it, post #6 :smallsigh:

Creating monsters specifically designed to hose wizards (which end up not working because you have to houserule away certain spells/abilities anyway) is just being passive-aggressive. If you want to ban batman, just do it.

Radar
2010-11-17, 09:03 AM
Totally called it, post #6 :smallsigh:

Creating monsters specifically designed to hose wizards (which end up not working because you have to houserule away certain spells/abilities anyway) is just being passive-aggressive. If you want to ban batman, just do it.
Exactly, if you either can't or don't want to think up challenges hard enough for Tier 1 characters, then just limit your players to classes from Tier 3 down. Their ability to break the game should be substantially limited and no single PC will be able to solve every problem all by him/herself and thus make others useless. Tell your players openly, that you want to keep the power-level low.

Adamaro
2010-11-17, 09:08 AM
@Radar,Psyren
Monster aside, so how exactly can one challenge batman then? I would really like to see a few good ideas.

jseah
2010-11-17, 10:32 AM
Misdirection (the technique of keeping information concealed, not the spell) is a good one.

It's a bit hard to find the murderer if there has been some time-hopping shenanigans screwing casuality into killing the guy 'accidentally'.

Or the guy has mindblank / Vecna-blooded, or there isn't any one main perpetrator

Basically, you need magic + lots and lots of wtf-inducing. Wizards have tons of firepower and good strategic backup.
The only way to challenge that is to have a challenge that cannot be solved directly and only by thinking really hard about which question is the right one to ask.

Eg. a plot I came up with for a friend's murder mystery which he eventually decided not to use:

A noble gets murdered. Party solves crime, kills murderer in battle.
Another noble gets murdered. Party solves crime, kills murderer... who is someone else.
Yet another noble <...>, Party investigates to see if there is a BBEG behind all this, esp. that very suspicious noble house who isn't getting murdered.

The answer is that the very public nature murders have ingrained themselves in the public mind. Every damn punk wants to be that mysterious mastermind / copy him, not least since the nobility aren't well liked.
There is NO mastermind. >.>

Radar
2010-11-17, 10:33 AM
@Radar,Psyren
Monster aside, so how exactly can one challenge batman then? I would really like to see a few good ideas.
IMO the most elegant solution is The Joker type of an adversary mentioned before. Mostly because it shifts the weight of the conflict from a straight up fight to a complex mind game and at those all players can be equal regardless of their characters. As for specific fights staged by a Joker, they are more difficult for a batman, since he is usualy pressed on time and has to resort to general purpose spells or burn through situational scrolls. The key point is, that even if the batman can win any fight, he might still lose, if he can't do it on time or picks a wrong fight.

If we are talking about typical challenging encounters, then the most obvious solution is to pit a batman against his equal. This means, you have to be as good at tactics and optimisation as your players. Wizards, Psions and Sorcerers can be dangerous adversaries. Clever combinations of lower Tier characters can be quite vicious as well (as the Pixie Warlock for example). It's very important to never throw monsters straight from the books - swap their feats for some more useful, add some class levels and you can brew a surprise for your players (give a Ring of Freedom of Movement to a typical hard-hitting melee and see, what happens in an enclosed space). This all comes with a risk of making weaker characters useless or dying way too often. As always, it's best to have all characters around the same power level.
Example: a Psion concentrating on counterspelling and action economy advantage has a high chance of locking the wizard or forcing him to retreat (which means, the wizard looses).

The third option is to limit everyone to Tier 3 classes or lower, since they are way easier to handle. There are fullcasters there, but with limited spell-lists. By all means it is a valid and fairly popular solution.