For Want Of A Nail.

[Malfunctioned]

Greetings Playgrounders.

I'm currently trying to create a setting for a Dieselpunk style game. The only problem I seem to be suffering from this is where the timeline of the game should deviate from ours.

The idea I had for the game was that, much like the Fallout series, technology advances yet attitudes stay the same except focusing on the 30's instead of the 50's. Rather than the technology focusing on cold fusion and vacuum tubes it instead focused on diesel power.


What I need you guys to help with is to help me decide when their timeline would deviate and what changes that, and the advance of dieseltech, would bring to the world.

So.

Any suggestions?

[Innis Cabal]

The diesel engine was invinted in 1897 to replace the steam engine. I would honestly say the deviation from our timeline would be around 1910 when they were widely used and taking on a major function in the world technological mindset,

[DeadManSleeping]

It's always fun to take off with things right before the next age comes around. The 40s is right before the Age of the Atom, and is just ripe with dieselpunk perfection. For ideas, look at some of the technologies that people were dreaming of during World War II. Really good stuff.

Oh, and if you ever need an inspector...I already have the outfit.

[Malfunctioned]

So the first minor variations from the time-line would appear around then. It would mostly continue as normal, though perhaps WWI could be the first major deviation with the new integration of Dieseltech. The time-line would probably adopt Art Deco stylings and keep them consistent at the begining of the 20s. But since I'm not a great historian in the slightest I have no idea what effect this could have on the world.

[Innis Cabal]

The Great Depression might have been much much worse, plunging the world into a deep spiral that only the most technologically powerful countries could pull themselves out of while the less industrial countries and nations would fall into squalor and grime, being forced into a whole new era of Imperial stanced Empires born on the backs of diesel monstrosities. Without getting to far into the politics of it, it would make an effective commentary on todays issues.

[Malfunctioned]

That does sound quite good. I'm picturing big cities filled with crime and decay, similar to the Burton Batman films, no WWII after Germany didn't recover from their depression leaving them as a run down ruin for the most part. The antagonists would most likely be both crime gangs such as the Mafia and either the New Chinese Empire or the Russian Republic.

[pffh]

You could even go so far as to have germany split back up into it's 8 (I think) countries as the more industrialized part of it try to cut their losses.

[Innis Cabal]

That does sound quite good. I'm picturing big cities filled with crime and decay, similar to the Burton Batman films, no WWII after Germany didn't recover from their depression leaving them as a run down ruin for the most part. The antagonists would most likely be both crime gangs such as the Mafia and either the New Chinese Empire or the Russian Republic.

Honestly, America should be one of the largest "antagonists" considering they were geared for war during WW1 and with little reason to slow down, they could just keep on chugging away. China...wasn't really an industrial powerhouse. Now Russia...that'd be another good one, as they slowly drove their citizenry into their graves with their industrialization.

[Malfunctioned]

Okay, so far we have The American Republic, pretty much an overly agressive, trigger happy war machine, and Russia with its army of Dieselborg soldiers and poor starving workers.

As for the aimed aesthetic. It's pretty much exampled by the art of Alexey Lipatov (http://lipatov.deviantart.com/).


http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/300W/f/2010/203/d/5/Mechanic_girl_by_Lipatov.jpg
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/268/b/9/vanship_wallpaper_wide_by_lipatov-d2zfo9b.jpg
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/203/e/0/Arrival_in_Utopia_by_Lipatov.jpg
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs50/f/2009/292/2/e/KIEV_dieselpunk_hovercraft_by_Lipatov.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2009/215/5/8/Dieselpunk_hovercraft_by_Lipatov.jpg

[Om]

This may skirt the lines, but the big challenge and fear in this timeline would have to be the 'dark side' of industrialisation - the emergence of organised labour and a resultant desperate fear of the 'Red Menace' (particularly following the wave of revolutions that followed WWI). This would be the major motivation underlying the actions of the elites. That and a near-crippling sense of their own decline and sense of mortality

You can really run quite far with the sort of bleak near-despair that gripped Europe after the end of the belle epoque. WWI really shattered the European worldview so, in an almost anti-Fallout way, you'd have people questioning the benefits of industrialisation and 'progress'. Frankly, it's a fascinating point in history and you can really run where you want with this


You could even go so far as to have germany split back up into it's 8 (I think) countries as the more industrialized part of it try to cut their losses.Unlikely when every nation is so keen to maximise its own demographics. This was the era of pro-natal laws and a general obsession with at least matching the military and economic might of neighbouring countries. Also doesn't make much sense when you consider that over 50% of German territory belonged to one of those states - Prussia. Could be a result if WWI turns out differently

[Innis Cabal]

I don't see how WW1 could have turned out much differently then it did to be perfectly frank with you. If anything, America could easily have made a bid for land in Germany or the Middle East at the Treaty, instead of running from it like it really did.

Pro-Imperial America seems high on the mark for this world, especially when you consider they were doing some crazy stuff with the tech of that era to begin with.

[doliest]

I'd imagine it would be a very 'Blade-Runner' esque dystopia, maybe? A kind of 'the industrial revolution never ended' points, where people are in worse conditions than ever, and a constant black cloud over major cities.
.
..
That actually sounds really cool, now that I think of it. :smalltongue:

[Worlok]

Well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173738), there is quite a lot of stuff you could do with Europe, I reckon.

This has been spoilered because it contains quite a lot of politics-related (and not necessarily exactly correct) notes on historic events:

As has been mentioned before, organised labor and the fear of the "Red Menace" would factor into the behavior of the elites, but - especially in Germany and Austria - the... other side (Yes, I do mean the Nazis, among others) would have its fair share in everyday goings-on as well. Parts of Berlin and Munich, for example, served as settings for a constant and usually covert war between redcaps and browncoats, including, but not limited to, assassinations (google "Karl Liebknecht" or "Rosa Luxemburg" for more information), shoot-outs and organised convention hall brawls (essentially laying siege or charging conventions of parties associated with the other side and hooligan-ing it out down to the last man standing, eventually the origin of factions such as the Sturmabteilung).
Mix in the fact that the government of the Weimar Republic was completely unable to effectively monitor or control these happenings due to their chronic bankruptcy and the constant dwindling of the army's and police's ranks due to both sides having infiltrated or corrupted them at some point, the other fact that the Great Depression kept feeding both sides with new members, namely angry, desperate and/or hungry disenfranchised working poor, and the third and perhaps least important fact that you linked the art of Mr Lipatov, while Berlin still has many places which look a lot (http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/117/u-bahn_berlin_oranienburger_tor.jpg) like (http://view.stern.de/de/picture/1662606/Berlin-Bahnhof-Zoo-Bahnhof-Zoo-Schwarz-Architektur-510x510.jpg) this (http://www.geologie.uni-stuttgart.de/fachschaft/images/exkursionen/Bornholm/klein/berlin_bahnhof.jpg), and you get quite the awesome Dieselpunk-Setting. (Disclaimer: The pictures linked above are property of their respective owners and not intentionally taken out of any context they might have been used in originally.)
An interesting deviation from the real-world Germany timeline could be that a certain mustachioed Gefreiter has actually fallen in WW1 (likely to the same fateful mustard gas attack that arguably brought about some of the worst effects of his lunacy in real life), meaning that the Republic government technically remains in charge, even though they have long lost control. As a side effect, this would mean that the massive economic growth spurt at the beginning of the Third Reich doesn't happen, the military remains nerfed and the effects of the Treaty of Versailles stick around longer and more directly visible: The nation is divided and (likely) goes down in a violent, screaming, hopelessly indebted mess when the Depression hits, while the French, not having remotely the same amount of trouble with effective anarchy, still want their money back. Potential for conflict, right there, whether ongoing or very recently resolved - one way or the other - to the lasting discontent of any number of factions involved.

Also: Pro-Prussian monarchists and Pro-Weimer republicans could make for interesting factions, as well. All of those factions should have headquarters and wage a very real war on each other, unfazed by the fact that everything around them has long lain in ruin.
On another note: Any ideas on how the status quo of your setting came about? Fallout had a nuclear apocalypse (I think), while yours might have something along the lines of a massive poisoning brought about by the senseless use of toxic gases and chemicals during WW1 (which you might want to exaggerate in dimensions a bit to make this work). This leads to a dying planet that is extremely overpopulated - with the dieselborg treatment being the most common/successful way of preventing extinction - although pretty much everyone died in the war and there are very few people left in the world, many, if not most of whom live "la vida Salad Fingers (http://www.fat-pie.com/salad.htm)" due to shell-shocks, raging omnipresent death and gruesome poisonings, anyway...

[Teddy]

I picture a world caught in constant Interwar Years with Fascist and Communist revolutions, economic depressions and a general discontent about the unstable political situation (both national and international), a world where people still remember the horrors of the Great War, but can't let go of old grudges.

Also, everything diesel-powered would be frighteningly large.

[llamamushroom]

As for the aimed aesthetic. It's pretty much exampled by the art of Alexey Lipatov (http://lipatov.deviantart.com/).

Is... is that a diesel-powered hover-bike? That is unbelievably awesome.

On topic, one of the advantages of diesel-tech (as far as I can see) is that it makes the better-funded armies much better than the poorly funded ones, even if they're outnumbered considerably. Using this, you could probably reverse the revolution in China - the capitalist Guomindang, who had considerable international aid, would have beaten the Communists, who only had the Russians. Even that alliance was tenuous, as the city of Shihezi (a military city built in the middle of the Gobi on the only road from Siberia) shows. A capitalist China would probably have a very different effect on the world - I'd like to think it'd be similar to Japan, but on a much larger scale.

In any case, that would only have any effect after the 1940s. What year would the actual campaign take place in?

[Dexam]

I'd imagine it would be a very 'Blade-Runner' esque dystopia, maybe? A kind of 'the industrial revolution never ended' points, where people are in worse conditions than ever, and a constant black cloud over major cities.
.
..
That actually sounds really cool, now that I think of it. :smalltongue:


I picture a world caught in constant Interwar Years with Fascist and Communist revolutions, economic depressions and a general discontent about the unstable political situation (both national and international), a world where people still remember the horrors of the Great War, but can't let go of old grudges.

The combination of both these concepts has given me the following (rough) ideas:

As the years drag on, all across the world many people abandon the cities due to over-crowding, pollution, poverty, and social and political oppression. They head to the countryside in the hopes of freedom from tyranny and the promise of food, air, and water untainted by the taste of diesel. Social and political tensions increase as populations divide into Industrial and Agricultural communities. The Cities enforce new laws to prevent mass-migration into the countryside, so the factories will still have workers and the industrial complex won't grind to a halt. Likewise, the Farms put up stockades to prevent their communities from growing too large and becoming the new cities with the old problems. This leads to a growing population of transients, caught between the Industrial and Agricultural communities and not really welcome in either.

Meanwhile, years of warring (both civil and international) and massive industrialisation has put a strain on world resources - the oil and diesel reserves are running dangerously low. Then an event occurs that changes the course of history: a process is discovered that will allow for the cheap large-scale production of fuel from plants. It's inventor calls this new fuel-source "biodiesel".

In a matter of months, a new Agricultural Revolution begins as the large farm-holders become the new "Diesel Barons", controlling the food and the fuel of the populace. Soon after a new World War starts up as countries begin a grab for that most precious of resources: arable land.

[Nibleswick]

Here is something to think about, how would it affect medicine, you have a world with greater potential for trad and movement than it has ever known before, but with out computers and plastics and and maybe not even X-ray machines. Combine that with generally poor health among the masses from over industrialization. You could easily get the Influenza Epidemic of WW1 again only worse. And that was bad enough that it almost stopped the War on it's own.

[Om]

As the years drag on, all across the world many people abandon the cities due to over-crowding, pollution, poverty, and social and political oppression. They head to the countryside in the hopes of freedom from tyranny and the promise of food, air, and water untainted by the taste of diesel. Social and political tensions increase as populations divide into Industrial and Agricultural communities. The Cities enforce new laws to prevent mass-migration into the countryside, so the factories will still have workers and the industrial complex won't grind to a halt. Likewise, the Farms put up stockades to prevent their communities from growing too large and becoming the new cities with the old problems. This leads to a growing population of transients, caught between the Industrial and Agricultural communities and not really welcome in eitherJust to note that this pretty much runs directly contrary to the narrative of the 19/20 th Cs. However bad the cities were at their worst, they were still better than peasantry. The only event that I can imagine driving hordes from the cities and back to the fields would be mass urban famine

Keep in mind as well that the farming communities, unless they were to return to 14th C peasant farming, would be dependent on the mechanised tools and goods manufactured in the cities. That said, the interplay between city and countryside was a key dynamic of the 19th C

[Teddy]

Meanwhile, years of warring (both civil and international) and massive industrialisation has put a strain on world resources - the oil and diesel reserves are running dangerously low. Then an event occurs that changes the course of history: a process is discovered that will allow for the cheap large-scale production of fuel from plants. It's inventor calls this new fuel-source "biodiesel".

I think it's a bit hard to imagine a dieselpunk world with a lack of diesel. You wouldn't make everything diesel-powered if there was a lack of diesel, would you? Also, dieselpunk seems to be set in the time frame where the countries who had oil practically were bathing in it, and petroleum based fuel was seen as very clean, as opposed to the dirty coal.

[SDF]

Oil can be synthetically produced. It is expensive, but the Germans did it during WWII and that could keep the supply from diminishing.

[Teddy]

Oil can be synthetically produced. It is expensive, but the Germans did it during WWII and that could keep the supply from diminishing.

Yes, but they used it out of necessity, since steam tanks, while an awesome steampunky idea, aren't especially practical, and a huge boiler is sort of too explosive to use in a tank... And the Germans did try to cut down on their oil usage. They used steam engines for their railroads during the war, for one example. I wouldn't call WWII Germany the pinnacle of dieselpunk, though...

[Mercenary Pen]

They used steam engines for their railroads during the war, for one example.

I thought that was mostly because diesels that could reliably achieve the massive tractive efforts to haul big supply trains hadn't been developed at the time- though given the size of the territory they controlled there must have also been places where the loading gauge wouldn't fit their existing locomotives as well.

[Teddy]

I thought that was mostly because diesels that could reliably achieve the massive tractive efforts to haul big supply trains hadn't been developed at the time- though given the size of the territory they controlled there must have also been places where the loading gauge wouldn't fit their existing locomotives as well.

Perhaps. I'm not really the railway nerd I would be if I was as interested in it today as I was when I was a little kid...

I don't think a different gauge would be an especially big problem to cope with. Send out 10'000 men and you'll have it fixed in a couple of days. There is a reason to why basic infrastructure seldom was targeted by bombing raids and the like: it's too easy to rebuild when you put your mind to it, and the same should probably apply to similar works of manual labour, even though you have to give it a bit more time.

I haven't found any evidence for it in a short search, but I think the gauge was pretty standardised in Western Europe back in the old days too, so as long as they stayed there, they shouldn't have had especially many problems with that before they invaded Russia...

[Om]

...though given the size of the territory they controlled there must have also been places where the loading gauge wouldn't fit their existing locomotives as well.Only a real concern when moving into the Soviet Union

But yes, steam trains were used because they were the predominant form of locomotives at the time. Oil usage does not factor into that. This said, Germany faced chronic oil shortages throughout the war. In addition to being extremely expensive, synthetic production came nowhere close to meeting wartime demand

[Mercenary Pen]

Perhaps. I'm not really the railway nerd I would be if I was as interested in it today as I was when I was a little kid...

I don't think a different gauge would be an especially big problem to cope with. Send out 10'000 men and you'll have it fixed in a couple of days. There is a reason to why basic infrastructure seldom was targeted by bombing raids and the like: it's too easy to rebuild when you put your mind to it, and the same should probably apply to similar works of manual labour, even though you have to give it a bit more time.

I haven't found any evidence for it in a short search, but I think the gauge was pretty standardised in Western Europe back in the old days too, so as long as they stayed there, they shouldn't have had especially many problems with that before they invaded Russia...

I was thinking the loading gauge, which takes more work than the simple distance between rails side of things. The loading gauge includes the stuff outside of the rails allowed for each train. However, having done a quick check on wikipedia (for want of better sources in a hurry) I haven't found any WW2 era german diesels that could match the power of their class 42 steam locomotive.

There's also the fact that by this time plenty of nations- including Germany- were experimenting with oil-fired steam locomotives so the predominance of steam was by no means an attempt to save on petrochemicals...

[Teddy]

I was thinking the loading gauge, which takes more work than the simple distance between rails side of things. The loading gauge includes the stuff outside of the rails allowed for each train. However, having done a quick check on wikipedia (for want of better sources in a hurry) I haven't found any WW2 era german diesels that could match the power of their class 42 steam locomotive.

There's also the fact that by this time plenty of nations- including Germany- were experimenting with oil-fired steam locomotives so the predominance of steam was by no means an attempt to save on petrochemicals...

Experimenting doesn't say especially much though. The Germans were experimenting with everything durning WWII, especially during the later stages of it. I'm quite interested in which years these experiments took place, though. Germany wasn't that oil-lacking at the start of the war, and they honestly didn't expect oil to be any problem at all as soon as they had conquered Russia. If it was in the later years, well, see "experimenting with everything" above, but it's still noteworthy for a country lacking oil, I guess...

[Dexam]

Just to note that this pretty much runs directly contrary to the narrative of the 19/20 th Cs. However bad the cities were at their worst, they were still better than peasantry. The only event that I can imagine driving hordes from the cities and back to the fields would be mass urban famine

Keep in mind as well that the farming communities, unless they were to return to 14th C peasant farming, would be dependent on the mechanised tools and goods manufactured in the cities. That said, the interplay between city and countryside was a key dynamic of the 19th C


I think it's a bit hard to imagine a dieselpunk world with a lack of diesel. You wouldn't make everything diesel-powered if there was a lack of diesel, would you? Also, dieselpunk seems to be set in the time frame where the countries who had oil practically were bathing in it, and petroleum based fuel was seen as very clean, as opposed to the dirty coal.

Oh sure... both of you shoot my ideas down in flames, why don't you? :smalltongue:

@Om: This is a fictional world, not real history. I should probably explain my idea a bit better: imagine that the Great Depression is a truly Great Depression, lasting fifty years or more. There's no WWII, and therefore no post-war boom. Society and technology effectively stalls at 1920's levels, with only increasing refinements to existing technologies (diesel) rather than the development of new tech. I'm not stating that the farming communities would return to 14th century farming practices - they would be heavily industrialised (diesel-powered farm equipment). Rather, a slow but steady exodus of people from the dystopian cities due to the social and political climate leads to increasing tensions and divisions between the agricultural and industrialised communities, and the agriculturals begin to take drastic measures when they feel that their way of life is threatened by the influx of people. The industrial communities still hold the balance of power due to the agricultural reliance on manufactured goods and fuel, but that balance of power shifts due to the fuel shortages and later discovery of commercially viable biodiesel.

@Teddy: once again, fictional world as opposed to real world. In the scenario I'm envisioning the countries aren't bathing oil - there's a period of short-term world-wide supply issues but the discovery of commercially viable biodiesel alleviates the shortage; with the added socio-political impact that after decades of being dicated to by the industrial communities, the agricultural communities have the wealth base to start dictating their own terms. So, not a lack of diesel in this dieselpunk world, but a period of transition from (expensive) mineral-oil to (cheaper) bio-oils. With arable land being the new source of fuel, a new "Great War" starts as land-poor countries invade other nations in an attempt to secure their prosperity. In fact, under this scenario, I can envisage Britian being the central oppressors - having a very strong (diesel-powered) navy, they create an alliance with the Netherlands, Spain, and the Baltic states and successfully invade and annex parts of France, Germany, and Russia.

Of course, these are just though exercises, and as always your mileage may vary (and usually does).

[Om]

Germany wasn't that oil-lacking at the start of the war, and they honestly didn't expect oil to be any problem at all as soon as they had conquered Russia. If it was in the later years, well, see "experimenting with everything" above, but it's still noteworthy for a country lacking oil, I guess...Well yes, but then German strategists assumed that conquering Russia would usher in a new era of milk and honey. As it was, the German leadership was hugely concerned by the oil situation years before the war began (increasing synthetic production was a key target of the Four Year Plan) and their fears were borne out in the early stages of the war. Despite effectively seizing control of the Romanian oilfields, it was only the oil stocks captured from France in 1940, coupled with a slowing of military operations in the latter half of that year, that allowed Germany to maintain its stockpile levels. Even this was done at significant cost with shortages biting deep into German industry in early '41, to the point where some German generals seriously considered a 'demotorisation' of the Wehrmacht. Obviously the resumption of full combat operations, plus the failure of the Soviets to roll over, put serious strain on these reserves


Oh sure... both of you shoot my ideas down in flames, why don't you?That's what I'm here for :smallwink:


This is a fictional world, not real history. I should probably explain my idea a bit better: imagine that the Great Depression is a truly Great Depression, lasting fifty years or more. There's no WWII, and therefore no post-war boom. Society and technology effectively stalls at 1920's levels, with only increasing refinements to existing technologies (diesel) rather than the development of new techWhich would still leave Europe as a predominately industrialised society with agriculture well and truly dependent on the cities. I understand of course that this is fiction but to be plausible alt-history, in my opinion, it has to fit with the prevalent themes and conditions of the day. It may be that you are placing the point of departure too far into the future - you may want to consider extending the Long Depression of 1873+. Now that would have had a biting impact on industrialisation and the urban/rural divide


Rather, a slow but steady exodus of people from the dystopian cities due to the social and political climateThis is probably the most unbelievable aspect. People did not, and do not, move to cities for the social/political climate or conditions. In most cases these were absolutely atrocious in the 19th C. People moved to cities because they can secure work and food otherwise not available in agricultural areas. This is particularly true when mechanisation of agriculture is drastically reducing the amount of labour needed on the land

One of the obvious case studies in regards to tensions between urban and rural populations is the industrialisation of the Soviet Union. Obviously I'm not going to go into detail on that here, but note that people still flocked to the cities despite the shocking social and political conditions

No, if you want to see massive emigration from the cities, to the point where it starts to upset the balance of power between town and countryside, then you need either a complete collapse on the economic front. Not merely a depression but mass hunger in the cities and a near-absolute inability to provide employment. Again, early 20th C Russia provides an example

Of course, perhaps ironically, kicking the planks out from the cities like that would also destroy agricultural society as markets and sources of goods dry up. Any collapse big enough to take down industrial society (again, which is the only thing to get people out of the cities) would also devastate the countryside. With the system breaking down you would indeed be talking about a return to medieval practices


The industrial communities still hold the balance of power due to the agricultural reliance on manufactured goods and fuel, but that balance of power shifts due to the fuel shortages and later discovery of commercially viable biodiesel. The question that you want to be asking here is simple - who is making the tractors? If they are being made in the city then there is work available and its business as usual. If they are being made in the countryside then nothing has actually changed - you still have industrial workers making products; ie small cities. If its neither of the above then tractors aren't being made at all and you have pre-industrial agriculture

Fuel/oil wouldn't factor into this. If anything, the cities are less dependent on it than the farms - you can fire a factory with coal but large-scale mechanisation of agriculture needs oil derivatives

All of which is of course entirely nitpicking borne of an interest in the period in question. Feel free to handwave it all away, but I'd suggest that dealing with these questions (particularly the exact relationship between urban and rural) is key to constructing a plausible scenario

[Teddy]

Oh sure... both of you shoot my ideas down in flames, why don't you? :smalltongue:

Ideas need criticism. Ideas based on what I say needs double criticism from me, because, obviously, I wouldn't pass the chance for some criticism fun. Basically, I like to state my opinions when I get the chance.


@Teddy: once again, fictional world as opposed to real world. In the scenario I'm envisioning the countries aren't bathing oil - there's a period of short-term world-wide supply issues but the discovery of commercially viable biodiesel alleviates the shortage; with the added socio-political impact that after decades of being dicated to by the industrial communities, the agricultural communities have the wealth base to start dictating their own terms. So, not a lack of diesel in this dieselpunk world, but a period of transition from (expensive) mineral-oil to (cheaper) bio-oils. With arable land being the new source of fuel, a new "Great War" starts as land-poor countries invade other nations in an attempt to secure their prosperity. In fact, under this scenario, I can envisage Britian being the central oppressors - having a very strong (diesel-powered) navy, they create an alliance with the Netherlands, Spain, and the Baltic states and successfully invade and annex parts of France, Germany, and Russia.

Of course, these are just though exercises, and as always your mileage may vary (and usually does).

Hmm, there would be huge issues with maintaining a huge fleet or army if you lack oil in the first place. Germany barely managed it. Japan couldn't at the end of WWII, and their ships and planes were basically grounded because of the lack of oil. There'll probably be ways to work your way around this problem for the army/navy through oil rationing and the like, but just these oil-lacking countries you listed would hardly implement any dieselpunk technology in the society before they could secure a steady source of oil. There is a reason to why the steampunk setting mainly is inspired by Victorian era UK - they had lots of steam, because coal wasn't an issue.

Yes, I know this is a bit nitpicky, but I think your idea might need some refinement to achieve its full potential. After all, it is a good way of refining and developing ideas to toss them to someone who comes with criticism. You don't even have to agree with the criticism, as long as it makes you think. :smallwink:


Well yes, but then German strategists assumed that conquering Russia would usher in a new era of milk and honey. As it was, the German leadership was hugely concerned by the oil situation years before the war began (increasing synthetic production was a key target of the Four Year Plan) and their fears were borne out in the early stages of the war. Despite effectively seizing control of the Romanian oilfields, it was only the oil stocks captured from France in 1940, coupled with a slowing of military operations in the latter half of that year, that allowed Germany to maintain its stockpile levels. Even this was done at significant cost with shortages biting deep into German industry in early '41, to the point where some German generals seriously considered a 'demotorisation' of the Wehrmacht. Obviously the resumption of full combat operations, plus the failure of the Soviets to roll over, put serious strain on these reserves

Hehehe, well, from what I've understood, more or less the entire point with the war was to conquer Russia. Everything else was just an unfortunate sideeffect from Poland being in the way. :smallwink:

And, see, I learn something new again. Actually, I think I should start dropping completely preposterous assumptions around me just to get people to correct me and learn me new things. The fact that I'm almost considering doing this says something about my thirst for new nerdy knowledge. :smallwink:

[Om]

Hehehe, well, from what I've understood, more or less the entire point with the war was to conquer Russia. Everything else was just an unfortunate sideeffect from Poland being in the way. :smallwink:True 'dat :smallsmile:


And, see, I learn something new again. Actually, I think I should start dropping completely preposterous assumptions around me just to get people to correct me and learn me new things. The fact that I'm almost considering doing this says something about my thirst for new nerdy knowledge. :smallwink:If you're interested in the subject, Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction is the definitive work on the German war economy. Its economic history, so be warned, but well worth a read