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Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-13, 07:48 PM
Ok I was browsing my copy of ToB, and saw the section on the nine swords, which uses the mostly lacklustre Weapons of Legacy rules.

Despite this they seem really interesting and I want to hear if the playground have some something to comment on the subject?

What do you think about them? have you seen or heard of someone using them?

Shyftir
2010-11-13, 07:53 PM
I used one as a MacGuffin sacred to a Hobgoblin tribe.

One of my regular gaming buddies has gone searching for said sword in like every other campaign world. When I used it as a MacGuffin he wasn't playing...

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-13, 07:54 PM
I am assuming you used the Iron Heart one? (or was it Diamond Mind the hobgoblin discipline?)

How did that go?

Greenish
2010-11-13, 08:43 PM
I am assuming you used the Iron Heart one? (or was it Diamond Mind the hobgoblin discipline?)Iron Heart is the hobgoblin discipline, and the (bastard) sword is called Kamate.
Kamate.
Kamate.
Kamate!

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-13, 08:44 PM
Urge to play a hobgoblin warblade rising.....

AslanCross
2010-11-13, 09:20 PM
Urge to play a hobgoblin warblade rising.....

The first time I saw the fluff that hobgoblins invented Iron Heart, I wanted to play one already, especially since they really do have the "evil samurai" feel.

Actually using Kamate is a great excuse to perform this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpTsPNwwms&feature=related) in-character.

Cedrass
2010-11-13, 09:47 PM
One of my characters got Desert Wind. It was nice, but it's a Legacy Weapon so, it wasn't strong or useful. It was however really nice to have.

Unique sword, some weird ritual to unlock it's power. I used it, but only because of fluff, and really, they can't be used otherwise. The cost of Legacy Weapons make them really subpar.

I recommend them however if your players aren't too worried about their power levels (I can already hear the Dragon Ball jokes).

Zephyros
2010-11-13, 10:21 PM
My last campaign featured a Fighter/Dervish/Tempest TWFing with the Diamond Mind and the Desert Wind one. I also had the penalties removed and waved the feat requirements. As a result he didn't really lag behind in a somehow optimized group.

He also made up a crapton of titles for his character. His most inspired was Sarpedon the Scorcher.

If you wanna use them just price em (in order to deduct from the WBL not walk in ye olde and order a Kamate) as magical weapons with spell enchantments. The penalties/feats/gp requirements really make them non-viable.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-13, 10:38 PM
I haven't seen any of them used in play, but their powers look pretty fair for their levels and the fluff is great. Plus they have great names. I certainly wouldn't mess with someone carrying Faithful Avenger or Blade of the Last Citadel.


Actually using Kamate is a great excuse to perform this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpTsPNwwms&feature=related) in-character.

You beat me to it. :smalltongue:

Zephyros
2010-11-13, 11:13 PM
I certainly wouldn't mess with someone carrying Faithful Avenger or Blade of the Last Citadel.


...or any adventurer with his appropriately magicked up weapon, which can also have a fancy name and no penalties.

"You'll regret the moment you made me unseath my +5 keen collision falchion of wounding" sounded kinda goofy anyway :smallbiggrin:

SurlySeraph
2010-11-13, 11:43 PM
It is a well-known fact that dice prefer players who use things that have awesome names.

sonofzeal
2010-11-13, 11:44 PM
The Tiger Claw kukri gets the highest possible base Crit range in the game, and is hence useful for some theoretical builds.

NineThePuma
2010-11-13, 11:50 PM
I do away with the Feat Tax and the Personal Costs, actually <<;;

Elfin
2010-11-14, 12:20 AM
There's no feat tax if you perform the rites - they grant you the appropriate Legacy feats.

As for the Nine Swords - I love them, fluff-wise, being the ToB fanatic that I am. I've yet to actually use any in a game, but I've always wanted to run a campaign centered on finding them.
And the fact that Faithful Avenger was used to destroy Acererak and shatter the Wand of Orcus is just icing on the cake.

If I do get a chance to use any in a game, I'd just waive the personal costs.

Thurbane
2010-11-14, 12:29 AM
Personally, I prefer the nine "final word" swords. Apparently, a few people thought these were the inspiration for ToB when the first heard the name "Book of Nine Swords". I think they got 3.5 stats in Dungeon magazine?

Answerer
Back-talker
Concluder
Last-quip
Rebutter
Replier
Retorter
Scather
Squelcher

dsmiles
2010-11-14, 08:28 AM
The first time I saw the fluff that hobgoblins invented Iron Heart, I wanted to play one already, especially since they really do have the "evil samurai" feel.

Actually using Kamate is a great excuse to perform this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpTsPNwwms&feature=related) in-character.
That is SO FRIGGIN' AWESOME!!!

Personally, I prefer the nine "final word" swords. Apparently, a few people thought these were the inspiration for ToB when the first heard the name "Book of Nine Swords". I think they got 3.5 stats in Dungeon magazine?

Answerer
Back-talker
Concluder
Last-quip
Rebutter
Replier
Retorter
Scather
Squelcher
Yay! Final Word Broadswords! Where?

Synapse
2010-11-14, 10:07 AM
My group likes the overall feel of tob and its mechanics except for two things
1) Legacy weapon drawbacks
2) written story for the disciplines and swords.
So we decided Reshar and the temple of the nine swords never existed, and removed all the legacy drawbacks. For us the weapons and disciplines were still more prominent with its written owners, but they were never seen as something that could be used together.
The weapons seen in game were Desert Wind, Kamate, Eventide's Edge and Umbral Awn. DW and K were part of some of the most awesome quests we played due to the involved environments: a desert with sandstorms (bad enough to kill dragons) that carried portals to other planes and a continent swarming with an impossibly large army of hobgoblins who just made sure elves were going extinct.


Two of our players, a swordsage // fighter Master of 9 gestalt and a swordsage // psychic warrior gestalt, unified the nine disciplines as a way to feed power into the first's country's army (a fantastic China reduced to a district teleported into a foreign city due to a cataclysm) as part of an attempt to retake its former lands from the hands of the eldritch abominations who claimed them.
It was particularly nasty because Iron Heart and Kamate were in the hands of the hobgoblins who canonically just annihilated the last elven nation in the world and claimed an entire continent in the process.
It took the entire campaign(2 years rl, 60 years in game) but it worked.

Greenish
2010-11-14, 10:40 AM
Actually using Kamate is a great excuse to perform this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpTsPNwwms&feature=related) in-character.What's up with that? It looks like they're going to play football, but then they break into a weird song & dance ritual.

an impossibly large army of hobgoblins who just made sure elves were going extinct.Woo! Three cheers for the hobgoblins!

Dienekes
2010-11-14, 10:49 AM
What's up with that? It looks like they're going to play football, but then they break into a weird song & dance ritual.

New Zealand Maori had a celebratory dance called the Ka Mate. Now the New Zealand rugby team performs it before matches.

Personally I always saw it as pointless showboating, but the fans seem to like it.

BenTheJester
2010-11-14, 11:04 AM
I feel that Faithful Avenger has the only useful abilities. Getting 20 temp HP per round is not too shabby, and negating the effect of an attack is also great.

The tiger claw's x4 multiplier can also be useful in specific builds.

Edge
2010-11-14, 12:03 PM
New Zealand Maori had a celebratory dance called the Ka Mate. Now the New Zealand rugby team performs it before matches.

Personally I always saw it as pointless showboating, but the fans seem to like it.

Urgh. No. The dance they do before the match is the haka, which was traditionally a dance the Maori performed before battle to unnerve the opposition.[/nitpick]

I've no interest in the sport myself, but I was brought up in a house where it was (and still is) serious business.

Greenish
2010-11-14, 12:11 PM
I feel that Faithful Avenger has the only useful abilities. Getting 20 temp HP per round is not too shabby, and negating the effect of an attack is also great.

The tiger claw's x4 multiplier can also be useful in specific builds.Umbral Awn is pretty damn good (for a legacy weapon).

Coidzor
2010-11-14, 01:51 PM
Actually using Kamate is a great excuse to perform this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpTsPNwwms&feature=related) in-character.

...What the heck was that?


New Zealand Maori had a celebratory dance called the Ka Mate. Now the New Zealand rugby team performs it before matches.

Personally I always saw it as pointless showboating, but the fans seem to like it.

Huh. Well I just learned something today.

NZ has strange rules about what teams can do before matches and the Maori made it to New Zealand. Didn't think they made it further east than Papua New Guinea.

DarkEternal
2010-11-14, 01:52 PM
I made it so that the sword belongs to a master of the Iron Heart style who taught a fighter(homebrewed really, without taking those feats necessary and stuff) how to use Iron Heart disciplines for flavor reasons.

He trained him for months, using only a wooden stick, and each month they had a duel. Since adventuring called, the fighter had to leave(him and his party are level 15, so pretty high in level), and they went their seperate ways with a promise that the master will regard the student as worthy to get all of the Iron Heart teachings once he makes the master pull the actual sword out of it's sheath.

Jair Barik
2010-11-14, 01:53 PM
I like them. They are the 'macguffins' of my current pbp campaign (well not exactly but near enough...). I dislike some of the drawbacks of takling them and have reflavoured the fluff to fit my needs and setting but my real complaint with them is how poorly edited their ToB entires are with most of them missing really important pieces of information.

Flickerdart
2010-11-14, 01:54 PM
Clearly someone needs to create a Master of Nine that uses all nine of the Swords. Insectile Thri-Kreen is probably a must.

DarkEternal
2010-11-14, 02:05 PM
Clearly someone needs to create a Master of Nine that uses all nine of the Swords. Insectile Thri-Kreen is probably a must.

I was actually thinking of making something similar for a high level campaign where the party would face off against a super powered group of ex heroes. Each of them would be a fantastic warrior in his or her's own right, but when they are "killed", something would trigger inside of them, causing them to "change". Call it a warrior's spirit, some magic, or DNA tampering.

One of them would be a swordsman with an awesome sword who could already do some homebrewed stuff that you would not probably be able to pull off in mechanics, but when he is ultimatey defeated I was thinking of transforming him into some Kali like entity with many hands, each holding a sword, so yeah, eight hands, eight swords. The last tone...hmmm....go the One Piece route and let him hold it in his teeth?

Flickerdart
2010-11-14, 02:13 PM
Pretty sure that at least one of the Nine Swords must be wielded two-handed, so you'll need ten hands.

Coidzor
2010-11-14, 02:16 PM
Pretty sure that at least one of the Nine Swords must be wielded two-handed, so you'll need ten hands.

Shrink a hectonchieres?

SurlySeraph
2010-11-14, 02:54 PM
Using all 9 swords is easy, Quick Draw + 9 iterative attacks. Figuring out a way to use every 9th-level strike in one glorious combo would be harder, but certainly doable.

5 full-round actions (Inferno Blast, Time Stands Still, Tornado Throw, Feral Death Blow, War Master's Charge)

4 standard actions (Strike of Righteous Vitality, Strike of Perfect Clarity, Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, Mountain Tombstone Strike)

I'm going to avoid specifics for now, but let's assume a Factotum 8/ whatever 2/ Eternal Blade 10, using a Warchanter or Divine Power to raise its BAB so it can qualify for Eternal Blade. And I'm going to assume it has 12 IP available to take 4 extra standard actions, has all 9 9th-level-maneuver-granting items (having met the prerequisites... somehow, I'll think about it), and a sufficiently high UMD check to use a scroll of Greater Celerity.

First, activate Cunning Surge 4 times to use all 4 standard-action strikes. Then full-round action strike, activate Belt of Battle as swift, full-round action, activate White Raven Tactics as swift, full-round action, activate Island in Time as swift, full-round action, activate a scroll of Greater Celerity as swift, full-round action.

I'd like to find a less shenanigan-reliant and more specific way to do this, but I think that works.

EDIT: I have a better idea!

9th-level maneuver prereqs:
DW Inferno Blast 5
DS Strike of Righteous Vitality 3
DM Time Stands Still 4
IH Strike of Perfect Clarity 4
SS Tornado Throw 5
SH Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike 5
SD Mountain Tombstone Strike 0
TC Feral Death Blow 4
WR War Master's Charge 4
Total Prereqs: 34

Maneuvers are an extraordinary ability, assuming you aren't taking Su ones. The Factotum's Cunning Brilliance temporarily grants extraordinary abilities. And you can use Cunning Brilliance more than once, overlapping.

Factotum 19/ Crusader 1.
The Crusader level gives 5 maneuvers and 1 stance from Devoted Spirit and White Raven.
He can use Cunning Brilliance to get the maneuvers of a 15th-level Swordsage. That's 20 maneuvers and 5 stances.
Then he can use Cunning Brilliance again for a Warblade's maneuvers, to get 11 maneuvers and 3 stances.
That's 43 maneuvers total, which would be enough to take all the prereqs *and* every 9th-level maneuver, if his IL was high enough. Now, if you consider initiator level an inherent part of having maneuvers, you can argue that his IL is 25. 15 (emulating classes with Cunning Brilliance) + 1 (Crusader) + 9 (1/2 IL per level, from Factotum levels). That's a shoddy argument; a more legitimate one would be that he has IL 18. 15 (emulated levels) + 1 (Crusader) +2 (4 Factotum levels). As long as you can argue your way up to 17 IL, you're golden. If not, you'll need all the 9th-level maneuver-granting items.

He'll need 20 IP: 8 IP to activate Cunning Brilliance twice, and 12 to activate Cunning Surge 4 times (once for each standard-action 9th-level strike). Base 8 IP, so he needs to take Font of Inspiration 5 times, and has 3 IP left over after the combo.
Since he no longer has Island in Time, and can't get it with Cunning Brilliance since it's a prestige class ability, we'll need more cheese to get the 5th full-round action. Cast a paladin scroll of Favor of the Martyr to become immune to daze. Voila, now we can cast Greater Celerity again with no drawbacks. It would be more entertaining to use your 3 IP for a standard action to Iron Heart Surge the daze away, but that's even more questionable rules-wise.

So, yeah. A Factotum 19/ Crusader 1, with Font of Inspiration 5 times, Quick Draw to draw each of the 9 swords, and the Cunning Brilliance + nested full-round-actions shenanigans I described above could use every 9th-level strike, with its appropriate sword, as part of an utterly glorious combo in a single round of combat.

Shyftir
2010-11-14, 03:48 PM
Using all 9 swords is easy, Quick Draw + 9 iterative attacks. Figuring out a way to use every 9th-level strike in one glorious combo would be harder, but certainly doable.

5 full-round actions (Inferno Blast, Time Stands Still, Tornado Throw, Feral Death Blow, War Master's Charge)

4 standard actions (Strike of Righteous Vitality, Strike of Perfect Clarity, Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, Mountain Tombstone Strike)

I'm going to avoid specifics for now, but let's assume a Factotum 8/ whatever 2/ Eternal Blade 10, using a Warchanter or Divine Power to raise its BAB so it can qualify for Eternal Blade. And I'm going to assume it has 12 IP available to take 4 extra standard actions, has all 9 9th-level-maneuver-granting items (having met the prerequisites... somehow, I'll think about it), and a sufficiently high UMD check to use a scroll of Greater Celerity.

First, activate Cunning Surge 4 times to use all 4 standard-action strikes. Then full-round action strike, activate Belt of Battle as swift, full-round action, activate White Raven Tactics as swift, full-round action, activate Island in Time as swift, full-round action, activate a scroll of Greater Celerity as swift, full-round action.

I'd like to find a less shenanigan-reliant and more specific way to do this, but I think that works.

EDIT: I have a better idea!

9th-level maneuver prereqs:
DW Inferno Blast 5
DS Strike of Righteous Vitality 3
DM Time Stands Still 4
IH Strike of Perfect Clarity 4
SS Tornado Throw 5
SH Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike 5
SD Mountain Tombstone Strike 0
TC Feral Death Blow 4
WR War Master's Charge 4
Total Prereqs: 34

Maneuvers are an extraordinary ability, assuming you aren't taking Su ones. The Factotum's Cunning Brilliance temporarily grants extraordinary abilities. And you can use Cunning Brilliance more than once, overlapping.

Factotum 19/ Crusader 1.
The Crusader level gives 5 maneuvers and 1 stance from Devoted Spirit and White Raven.
He can use Cunning Brilliance to get the maneuvers of a 15th-level Swordsage. That's 20 maneuvers and 5 stances.
Then he can use Cunning Brilliance again for a Warblade's maneuvers, to get 11 maneuvers and 3 stances.
That's 43 maneuvers total, which would be enough to take all the prereqs *and* every 9th-level maneuver, if his IL was high enough. Now, if you consider initiator level an inherent part of having maneuvers, you can argue that his IL is 25. 15 (emulating classes with Cunning Brilliance) + 1 (Crusader) + 9 (1/2 IL per level, from Factotum levels). That's a shoddy argument, but as long as you can argue your way up to 17 IL, you're golden. If not, you'll need all the 9th-level maneuver-granting items.

He'll need 20 IP: 8 IP to activate Cunning Brilliance twice, and 12 to activate Cunning Surge 4 times (once for each standard-action 9th-level strike). Base 8 IP, so he needs to take Font of Inspiration 5 times, and has 3 IP left over after the combo.
Since he no longer has Island in Time, and can't get it with Cunning Brilliance since it's a prestige class ability, we'll need more cheese to get the 5th full-round action. Cast a paladin scroll of Favor of the Martyr to become immune to daze. Voila, now we can cast Greater Celerity again with no drawbacks. It would be more entertaining to use your 3 IP for a standard action to Iron Heart Surge the daze away, but that's even more questionable rules-wise.

So, yeah. A Factotum 19/ Crusader 1, with Font of Inspiration 5 times, Quick Draw to draw each of the 9 swords, and the Cunning Brilliance + nested full-round-actions shenanigans I described above could use every 9th-level strike, with its appropriate sword, as part of an utterly glorious combo in a single round of combat.

And your DM kicks you out of the group and outlaws ToB...

Synapse
2010-11-14, 03:49 PM
And your DM kicks you out of the group and outlaws ToB...

Because of DUNGEONSCAPE.
Which actually is the expected route. Because "animesque melee tricks are overpowered".

Greymane
2010-11-14, 04:18 PM
All nine swords on one baddy?

The only answer is an Aspect of Hextor.

Have the evil high priest cast Girallon's Blessing on him.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-14, 04:50 PM
Using all 9 swords is easy, Quick Draw + 9 iterative attacks. Figuring out a way to use every 9th-level strike in one glorious combo would be harder, but certainly doable.

5 full-round actions (Inferno Blast, Time Stands Still, Tornado Throw, Feral Death Blow, War Master's Charge)

4 standard actions (Strike of Righteous Vitality, Strike of Perfect Clarity, Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, Mountain Tombstone Strike)

I'm going to avoid specifics for now, but let's assume a Factotum 8/ whatever 2/ Eternal Blade 10, using a Warchanter or Divine Power to raise its BAB so it can qualify for Eternal Blade. And I'm going to assume it has 12 IP available to take 4 extra standard actions, has all 9 9th-level-maneuver-granting items (having met the prerequisites... somehow, I'll think about it), and a sufficiently high UMD check to use a scroll of Greater Celerity.

First, activate Cunning Surge 4 times to use all 4 standard-action strikes. Then full-round action strike, activate Belt of Battle as swift, full-round action, activate White Raven Tactics as swift, full-round action, activate Island in Time as swift, full-round action, activate a scroll of Greater Celerity as swift, full-round action.

I'd like to find a less shenanigan-reliant and more specific way to do this, but I think that works.

EDIT: I have a better idea!

9th-level maneuver prereqs:
DW Inferno Blast 5
DS Strike of Righteous Vitality 3
DM Time Stands Still 4
IH Strike of Perfect Clarity 4
SS Tornado Throw 5
SH Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike 5
SD Mountain Tombstone Strike 0
TC Feral Death Blow 4
WR War Master's Charge 4
Total Prereqs: 34

Maneuvers are an extraordinary ability, assuming you aren't taking Su ones. The Factotum's Cunning Brilliance temporarily grants extraordinary abilities. And you can use Cunning Brilliance more than once, overlapping.

Factotum 19/ Crusader 1.
The Crusader level gives 5 maneuvers and 1 stance from Devoted Spirit and White Raven.
He can use Cunning Brilliance to get the maneuvers of a 15th-level Swordsage. That's 20 maneuvers and 5 stances.
Then he can use Cunning Brilliance again for a Warblade's maneuvers, to get 11 maneuvers and 3 stances.
That's 43 maneuvers total, which would be enough to take all the prereqs *and* every 9th-level maneuver, if his IL was high enough. Now, if you consider initiator level an inherent part of having maneuvers, you can argue that his IL is 25. 15 (emulating classes with Cunning Brilliance) + 1 (Crusader) + 9 (1/2 IL per level, from Factotum levels). That's a shoddy argument; a more legitimate one would be that he has IL 18. 15 (emulated levels) + 1 (Crusader) +2 (4 Factotum levels). As long as you can argue your way up to 17 IL, you're golden. If not, you'll need all the 9th-level maneuver-granting items.

He'll need 20 IP: 8 IP to activate Cunning Brilliance twice, and 12 to activate Cunning Surge 4 times (once for each standard-action 9th-level strike). Base 8 IP, so he needs to take Font of Inspiration 5 times, and has 3 IP left over after the combo.
Since he no longer has Island in Time, and can't get it with Cunning Brilliance since it's a prestige class ability, we'll need more cheese to get the 5th full-round action. Cast a paladin scroll of Favor of the Martyr to become immune to daze. Voila, now we can cast Greater Celerity again with no drawbacks. It would be more entertaining to use your 3 IP for a standard action to Iron Heart Surge the daze away, but that's even more questionable rules-wise.

So, yeah. A Factotum 19/ Crusader 1, with Font of Inspiration 5 times, Quick Draw to draw each of the 9 swords, and the Cunning Brilliance + nested full-round-actions shenanigans I described above could use every 9th-level strike, with its appropriate sword, as part of an utterly glorious combo in a single round of combat.

This is awesome.

Da Beast
2010-11-14, 04:57 PM
If you ignore the penalties and change the legacy rituals from spend a bunch of money to something interesting the legacy weapons become awesome artifacts that work at low levels and power up with, just like they were supposed to be.

Optimator
2010-11-14, 05:36 PM
My group uses very modified Weapons of Legacy rules and very modified versions of the Discipline weapons, but we do (have) use(d) them.