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View Full Version : Surprise Round! (3.5)



Jjeinn-tae
2010-11-14, 12:43 AM
Thinking about a situation I wanted to put in one of the campaigns I'm running, I realized I didn't quite know how to handle the situation, so I go to you people who tend to have a much better understanding of the rule than myself.

Generally when you get a surprise round, the "enemy" will be unaware of the attackers, if not the only way, which is where the problem lies. If a character engaged in conversation, is say, offended to the point that they sucker punch the person they're talking to, is that a surprise round? I've always ruled it that way, but now I'm starting to DM with people who play the game other times than just me DMing, so I'd like to make sure if that's right or not...

So, is the only way to get a surprise round when you are undetected? Or are there other situations that can trigger them?

DaragosKitsune
2010-11-14, 12:53 AM
Well, the idea of a sucker punch surprise round makes sense to me, however I would say it is a surprise round only for the character doing said sucker punch. Basically, a round where everyone but the attacking player is surprised. Thus, everyone but the attacker would be flat-footed.

Atar Kelith
2010-11-14, 01:04 AM
I've only played 4.0 but, I like to give the player that initiated the surprise attack the first round on the first turn. Unless the player gave his/her buddies a heads up before hand. If it is an off the cuff sucker punch the puncher should start the encounter then they should all roll initiative and proceed from there.

That's what seems fair to me.

ffone
2010-11-14, 02:16 AM
This is a great question. I've been pondering this and hope to see some ideas in this thread!

My current thinking, though, is that for the sucker puncher to 'guarantee' that he gets that first attack, he should have to succeed on a Bluff check or something. The sucker punchee has *some* chance to notice a 'tell' and act first after all, right?

And there are some conceptual similarities to Feinting here: in a surprise round, your foes are always flat-footed. Since the punchee was aware of the punchers presence, and possibly half-expecting some attack, he has some chance to use his Dex bonus to AC, surely?

If you think the puncher should still have an edge, he does for two reasons:

-He might get a surprise round, but even if the check fails, he might still win initiative.

-Depending on the nature of the punchee and circumstances, he might not be willing to hit first even if he 'makes' the Bluff and wins initiative. (the guards won't believe you if you say 'I could see it in his eyes, he was about to attack, so I attacked first') He might ready an action, though.

I also favor the Bluff rather than 'auto-surprise' because it gives PCs more of an incentive to try and parlay, rather than act paranoid and feel they need to attack everything before they get attacked. (Which gives Evil parties, or at least those with no Paladin-like chars, a massive advantage.)

In PBP I've seen players argue both extremes: that by posting a hostile action first, they should be guaranteed surprise or first initiative....AND I've seen them argue that when the other guys try to sucker punch, their PC should actually get to attack preemptively "because obviously my PC would ready an action to attack if attacked". Needless to say they argue in their own PC's favor both ways, and I've seen the same player argue both sides.

The second argument could lead to the paradoxical situations where - imagine a Clint Eastwood style Wild West duel - whoever 'attacked first' would always end up 'attacking second'...and since they'd know this is how it worked, they'd never 'attack', they'd both ready actions! Perhaps this is why you can't ready actions out of combat?

The first argument (whoever says they attacks first does) is less paradoxical, but too 'automatic' IMO, and there are lots of examples to the contrary that you'd probably want to be possible in the game (Clint Eastwood sees the guy drawing, so he draws and shoots first because he's got faster reflexes - i.e. better Initiative).

I also disfavor auto-sucker-punches b/c in PBP I've seen it led to people writing very short, clipped posts, paranoid about giving NPCs an 'opening' to attack while their PC spoke or whatever.

Riffington
2010-11-14, 02:20 AM
It's totally reasonable to get a surprise round when the defender knows you are there but doesn't know it's a fight.

As previously said, bluff vs sense motive is good there - heavily modified based on the circumstance. "Bet you didn't see that coming, mom" would have a rather large circumstance bonus.

2-HeadedGiraffe
2010-11-14, 07:50 AM
I'd say it's reasonable to get a surprise round unless the intended target of the attack has a good reason to expect an attack. For example, if you'd threatened to hit him already, he could reasonably be less surprised when you actually hit him.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-11-14, 09:29 PM
Ok, seems like we more or less agree on the bluff/sense motive. Thanks everyone, that's kind of what I was leaning towards, but I wanted to see if there was an "official" way to go about it.

imperialspectre
2010-11-14, 10:00 PM
The first argument (whoever says they attacks first does) is less paradoxical, but too 'automatic' IMO, and there are lots of examples to the contrary that you'd probably want to be possible in the game (Clint Eastwood sees the guy drawing, so he draws and shoots first because he's got faster reflexes - i.e. better Initiative).

Actually, it's fairly simple. If two people within each other's reach are talking and one sucker-punches the other with an unarmed attack (or with a weapon that's already drawn), the sucker-puncher gets a surprise round. The aggressor can now use a standard action to execute the attack.

If someone's drawing a weapon, that's a *move* action, which takes up the entirety of the aggressor's surprise round. Initiative is then rolled, and it's theoretically possible that Clint Eastwood wins initiative and gets to draw a weapon (move action) and fire it (standard action) before the aggressor acts.

If people are standing around with drawn weapons, the best way to evaluate it is probably to give nobody a surprise round, because a surprise round happens when people aren't ready to fight. An aggressive action simply triggers initiative.

AslanCross
2010-11-14, 10:02 PM
Well, the idea of a sucker punch surprise round makes sense to me, however I would say it is a surprise round only for the character doing said sucker punch. Basically, a round where everyone but the attacking player is surprised. Thus, everyone but the attacker would be flat-footed.

This is how I would run it as well.

ffone
2010-11-15, 03:16 AM
Ok, seems like we more or less agree on the bluff/sense motive. Thanks everyone, that's kind of what I was leaning towards, but I wanted to see if there was an "official" way to go about it.

The official answer is that you basically can't (you don't get surprise if the other side is aware of you, the text is in the DMG and IIRC it's not all at the SRD).

I encourage you not to read too much into the 'sucker punch' TV/movie trope...IMO the case of 'punchee sees the sucker punch coming' is underrepresented. Also the trope is usually in a 'modern' and social setting where a serious attack is much less expected than in a more dangerous medieval-fantasy world.

One alternative or supplement to Bluff vs Sense Motive and-or Sleight of Hand vs Spot is a bonus on initiative checks for the initiator.


Actually, it's fairly simple. If two people within each other's reach are talking and one sucker-punches the other with an unarmed attack (or with a weapon that's already drawn), the sucker-puncher gets a surprise round. The aggressor can now use a standard action to execute the attack.

which takes up the entirety of the aggressor's surprise round. Initiative is then rolled, and it's theoretically possible that Clint Eastwood wins initiative and gets to draw a weapon (move action) and fire it (standard action) before the aggressor acts.

So if he waits to see the guy start, Clint Eastwood has 0% chance to beat any guy with Quick Draw?

Or a guy with a bow who's holding the bow but not an arrow yet. Or a spellcaster. Or a shuriken-flinging ninja.



If people are standing around with drawn weapons, the best way to evaluate it is probably to give nobody a surprise round, because a surprise round happens when people aren't ready to fight. An aggressive action simply triggers initiative.

Agreed. When thinking about how to adjudicate things as a DM, I try to consider the implications for how the ruling will affect incentives:

1. If you give characters any advantage (/ lack of disadvantage) for being 'ready to fight', I guarantee that you that people will roleplay their PCs as always expecting a fight.

Which is perfectly reasonable....so reasonable, in fact, that I assume this readiness is already part of the system. Primarily through initiative. There are mechanical ways to represent 'expecting a fight', like some of the modifiers ('spotter distracted' etc.) in the Bluff, Sense Motive, and Spot descriptions.

It's like the lack of 'facing' - you can't just run around to the opposite side of a foe to 'backstab' them for sneak attack damage; characters are implicitly presumed to face threats to the degree they can (with Dex-AC-denying or flanking representing the opportunities to literally get around it).

2. This route (auto-surprise if you declare your attack first) heavily discourages any sort of parlay. (Even if everyone needs an action to draw weapons, getting yours 'free' is a large advantage.)

3. If you do PBP, prepare for very 'clipped' posts with monosyllabic PCs who are paranoid about speaking long enough to give the other guy an 'opening' (and who refuse to roleplay what their char is thinking or feeling up to that point, lest the DM use it against them as a 'tell'). And if the DM does this to the PCs, ever, prepare for the players to say 'ah, but b/c of that thing ealrier in your post, Dm, my PC totally would've attacked then, before your NPC did!" (This is the point of System vs Freeform - to resolve such things with a roll, such as initiative).

Also, I wouldn't consider any of this player behavior metagaming: if the world the PCs live in is such that no one can possibly see a sucker punch coming and preempt it, they'd probably know that (without even realizing they knew it, b/c it would just be 'how things are'). Like the pic on the gitp homepage - 'don't hate the player, hate the game system'.

4. Talking to a guy then swinging is equally effective to having been invisible and silently moving and then attacking?

elpollo
2010-11-15, 03:32 AM
*Snip*

I was totally for the side of "Yes, the PC gets a surprise round", but you've completely changed my mind.

ffone
2010-11-15, 03:41 AM
I was totally for the side of "Yes, the PC gets a surprise round", but you've completely changed my mind.

Everyone, we have a first in Internet message board history! :smallbiggrin:

J.Gellert
2010-11-15, 04:53 AM
And the short version: That's exactly what Initiative is supposed to be used for :smalltongue: Both sides aware, now let's see who is faster - the attacker's fist, or the defender's reflexes.

Fitz10019
2010-11-15, 05:03 AM
[everything above]

Beyond the gut reaction of 'that makes sense' you have to consider that rules affect behavior, as ffone is describing.

Raendyn
2010-11-15, 05:11 AM
And the short version: That's exactly what Initiative is supposed to be used for :smalltongue: Both sides aware, now let's see who is faster - the attacker's fist, or the defender's reflexes.

+1
Won Init = profit
Lost init = flat footed

Now if/when NOT both sides are aware.

I might add that a sleight of hand contested role against a spot check so you might hide the moves including "nearing my sword"(don't start with quick draw)

Or a Faint check versus spot

Or a diplomacy so he would see you as a friend so he would not suspect a harrasment

Or a bluff,same as above

FelixG
2010-11-15, 05:57 AM
2. This route (auto-surprise if you declare your attack first) heavily discourages any sort of parlay. (Even if everyone needs an action to draw weapons, getting yours 'free' is a large advantage.)


Great post!

But this is the single issue I take issue with. at a Parlay you should be on edge, you are meeting with an enemy after all... you see their hand going for a weapon your hand goes for one too.

And the whole problem is resolved by keeping a respectable distance from the person, if you implicitly trust your enemy enough to let him sidle right up next to you then your asking for a smack :smallbiggrin:

But you can already do stuff, as was posted earlier, like sliding your hand toward your weapon unnoticed with a slight of hand check. This could be useful for the PCs but not as effective for NPCs as a PC could always have a readied action "I ready so that if his hand moves to his sword I draw mine" which would be a good mind set for PCs who are dealing with enemies

Jjeinn-tae
2010-11-15, 04:04 PM
Wow, and I expected conversation to die after that, not for ffone to instantly reverse the discussion, though re-reading your first post, I'm not entirely sure why it took so long.

It is true that the sucker punch is over-used, and generally not too realistic (bunch of masochists those anime characters :smalltongue:) anyone who knows how to fight can generally easily a strike coming... especially with people known to be violent (and even not, those reflexes are ingrained deeply).

Looking back at initiative, I suppose you are right that initiative simulates this, as you're flat-footed before you act.


I do have an exception that must exist though, wizards tend to not have direct combat training, and do not have much in the way of combat reflexes besides dodging or a swift spell. Monks are fast, and you never expect a monk to attack a wizard, with their wisdom they know they can't win, so you could definitely say this would be a surprise. Then, with the monk's amazing combat training, he strikes so quickly, that not only will he surprise the wizard, he is probably going to attack more than once before the wizard can react. It runs into problems when you remember contingencies, so this can't be unbalancing at all!

Cogidubnus
2010-11-15, 04:07 PM
I'd say, if you expect a fight to break out - say you meet some mercs in the wilderness, you're naturally cautious - then there's no surprise. If a guy in a bar and his mates order drinks and then smash them over you, that's a surprise round.

ericgrau
2010-11-15, 04:09 PM
I like to think of a surprise round as whatever anyone does before others have a chance to notice. Whenever there's a chance that either might act first it falls to initiative.

So in the example I agree only the sucker puncher acts in the surprise round. And only if his foe trusts him. I mean it's plausible to see someone raise their weapon and react immediately unless he's your buddy. If anything I might suggest a +2 to the sucker puncher's initiative but it certainly isn't impossible for a foe (usually suspicious) to react before getting sucker punched.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 04:19 PM
You walk into a room. You don't expect anybody hostile to be there. As soon as you open the door, an arrow flies to your face. That is a surprise round in a nutshell; one side being aware of an upcoming engagement and another unaware.

If both parties walk in with your weapon drawn and are ready to shoot as soon as the door open aware that there is somebody on the other side, no surprise round necessary. PHB outlines awareness as the critical factor. If one side is preparing to attack amidst negotiations, there'll be a surprise round unless either precautions are taken or the appropriate Spot-checks are made. Basically, a surprise round happens when one side isn't prepared for the upcoming engagement. When both sides are aware, it's just initiative and the one to win gets the "first move" by virtue of acting faster.


So in the sucker punch example, unless the other party is expecting you to, there's a surprise round. If the other party is aware that you will try to punch them and is prepared for that, just roll initiative when you want to punch and see if you can act faster than they. I might call for Spot-checks opposed by Bluff-check (if you're trying to sneak the punch in while distracting them or so) to notice the punch before it connects on part of the person targeted and if that fails, free punch; if not, roll initiative.

ffone
2010-11-16, 03:15 AM
Great post!

But this is the single issue I take issue with. at a Parlay you should be on edge, you are meeting with an enemy after all... you see their hand going for a weapon your hand goes for one too.

Agreed. I was arguing against auto-surprise, and saying that getting to draw your weapon as your surprise action (without making a Bluff and-or Sleight of Hand) to get surprise at all was as bad an idea as auto-surprise for the sucker punch itself.

In a high-level case where a full attack is worth more than 2 regular attacks to you, turning an attack into a full attack (b/c your weapon draw was your surprise action) becomes an even bigger advantage than one extra standard attack!



And the whole problem is resolved by keeping a respectable distance from the person, if you implicitly trust your enemy enough to let him sidle right up next to you then your asking for a smack :smallbiggrin:

Indeed. When I DM I often have NPCs say things like "come no closer! start your names and business, quickly!" (i.e. before you can think of a lie)



But you can already do stuff, as was posted earlier, like sliding your hand toward your weapon unnoticed with a slight of hand check. This could be useful for the PCs but not as effective for NPCs as a PC could always have a readied action "I ready so that if his hand moves to his sword I draw mine" which would be a good mind set for PCs who are dealing with enemies

Yeah, I've seen players on many occasions try to use 'readied actions' in out of combat situations to try to guarantee they get to go first. My stock response is that they can't because:

- RAW, makes no sense b/c readying an action changes your initiative count, which you don't yet have.

- the 'Clint Eastwood' paradox above, when NPCs do it too (whoever tries to shoot first is guaranteed to not shoot first!)

- If PCs can, they will all the time, bogging down the game with everyone's current declarations

- When they ask why you can ready actions in combat if you can't out of combat is that readying an action always occurs before the action which triggers it, in other words, you had the initiative - it was your turn - and then gave it up (but not for nothing).