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View Full Version : [3.5] There's a fine line between "difficult" and "lethal."



Drakevarg
2010-11-14, 01:47 AM
So, time for the weekly "Psycho screwed up while DMing" post. This week, it was technically a TPK, in the sense that everyone who showed up today died. Strictly speaking, half the party still lives due to not showing up in the first place.

This Week's Party:
Miyat Sanguis, LN Wood Elf Fighter 2
Hikari, TN High Elf Ranger 2
Anu Ra, CN Wood Elf Druid 2

So, within a few rounds the party wipes out the Monsterous Centipedes I threw at them last week. Their instant reaction, of course, is to get the hell out of this cave. So they head back to the ledge that leads back out of the cave, only to see that dozens of Monsterous Centipedes are swarming about down there, drinking from a small pool of water. Deciding not to risk it, they turn about and head deeper into the cave.

After a few hours, they finally decide to stop to sleep. (In the past day, they have fought half a dozen effigy wolves, climbed down a slippery cliff, betrayed the Legionnaires accompanying them, and fought half a dozen six-foot-long centipedes. They've earned a nap.) Being in a small bulge in the tunnel, they block the entrances with their backpacks and enjoy an uninterrupted sleep. The next morning, Anu Ra FINALLY decides to alter his spell list during his meditation. He selects:

Level 0:
Detect Magic
Cure Minor Wounds
Purify Food and Drink
Light

Level 1:
Speak With Animals
Produce Flame
Animate Water

He's also now aware that he can spontaneously convert any Level 1 spell into Summon Nature's Ally.

A few hours further down the tunnel, Sanguis suddenly feels something close around his feet. At the same time, something moves past Hikari's ear. Both give a startled yelp. Wondering what all the commotion is, Anu Ra turns around (the marching order is Sanguis -> Anu Ra -> Anu Ra's Animal Companion, Fang -> Hikari) and sees that the tunnel behind Hikari seems to have closed up. He opts to simply stand there, dumbfounded.

In the meantime, a roughly human-sized lump of rock raises itself out of the ground in front of Sanguis, still clutching one of his feet. It attempts to strike him with a stoney protrusion, but it simply gongs off of Sanguis's breastplate. The rock wall behind Hikari, meanwhile, attempts to stike her. This time she's ready, and sidesteps the blow. Pulling out her kodachi in response, she slashes at it and finds, to her relief, that the thing attempting to kill her is not sword-proof despite being made out of stone. Not that it does her much good, as it retorts by knocking her out with a single uppercut.

Taking a clue from Hikari, Sanguis draws his wakizashi (there isn't enough room in the tight tunnel for a katana) and slashes at the elemental in front of him. It connects, but the elemental simply responds by punching out several of his teeth. Anu Ra, meanwhile, decides to stop being useless and casts animate water, a small stream running at the bottom of the tunnel raising up like a serpent. He commands it to strike the elemental in front of Sanguis, but the gesture is utterly ineffectual.

Fang, deciding that he might as well try something despite the logical assumption that his teeth would not be effective against rock monsters, attempts to bite the elemental that cold-clocked Hikari. The result is predictable. The elemental fighting Sanguis strikes him again, dislocating his jaw and knocking him out. Anu Ra stikes it again with the animated water, with the same result.

---

Now, it was around here that I concluded that this was an unstoppable murder-machine, and that the party was doomed if I didn't pull some fiat. So, I spontaneously lowered the elementals' stats to that of Small Earth Elementals, as opposed to Medium. I had them have taken the same ammount of damage though, which with the lowered stats went from "irrelevent scratches" to "half-dead."

---

Figuring Fang has the other elemental handled, Anu Ra continues to focus on Sanguis's elemental. Converting his speak with animals to summon nature's ally I, he summons a Medium Monsterous Centipede, the same kind they had fought the previous day. It attempts to bite the elemental, with no effect. Meanwhile, Fang and Hikari's elemental trade missing blows.

The next round, Anu Ra casts cure minor wounds on Sanguis, who was in danger of bleeding out. His centipede trys again, and fails, to bite the elemental. It is called back to nature immediately afterwards, it's two rounds spent. The elemental lands a blow on Anu Ra. Fang and the elemental continue to do **** all.

Next, Anu Ra casts produce flame, lobbing it at the elemental. His aim is horrible and the fire flies uselessly down the tunnel, missing the target completely. The elemental answers with a punch, as it always does. Anu Ra throws his second flame at the elemental, striking it in the 'face' and knocking it out. It tumbles backwards and sinks into the earth. Morale restored, Anu Ra turns to face the remaining elemental, who at this point has essentially gotten bored of Fang's attempts to bite it and instantly focuses on Anu Ra.

Before Anu Ra can get a single attack off, the elemental clocks him and he loses conciousness and begins bleeding. Meanwhile, Fang and the elemental trade empty blows for several rounds before Fang finally makes a solid blow, ripping out a chunck of rock where the elemental's throat should be. It collapses, beaten.

At this point, all that's left is for Anu Ra to stablize, and we've got a fight won despite all PC participants being out cold. Unfortunately he doesn't, and bleeds out.

---

An indeterminate period of time later (a week, if you're curious), Hikari and Sanguis wake up, being both in the negatives and with exactly the same HP remaining. Anu Ra is well on his way to decay and Fang is nowhere to be seen. Each swigging back a potion of cure moderate wounds (nicked off the betrayed Legionnaires), they loot Anu Ra for what they can use (ultimately just 3 gp and 100 ft. of hempen rope) and continue on their way.

A few hours later, they come to a crossroads. One tunnel leads uphill, with the stream they've been following coming from it, the other leads downhill and is dry. Having enough water in their skins for several days, they opt for the dry path. After a while, they reach a sizeable chamber with several stalactites about it, and decide to camp, sleeping behind a stalagmite for cover. At this point their only torch is completely burnt out and it's completely, utterly pitch black. They only figured out the layout of the room via padding it out by hand.

An hour and a half into Sanguis's watch, he hears a slithering noise. Not taking any chances, he wakes Hikari. After standing at the ready for a few moments, he feels something brush against his helmet and, in a panic, thrusts his sword upwards. Several fleshy, ropelike thing fall around his sword before the thing slumps to the ground, dead. Only hearing the sound of the body hit the ground, Hikari shots it uselessly.

A moment later, they hear more slithering to their left. Something slams into Sanguis's helmet, and he responds by swinging in the general direction of the offender. He misses. Meanwhile, another creature slams into Hikari. She swings at it, but misses. Another creatures attacks her from behind, knocking her out with the initial strike, then strangling her to death. The creature attacking Sanguis similarly stikes than strangles him, killing the last member of the party and ending the session. The rest of the night was spent contemplating chargen.

---

The mystery creatues, by the way, were Darkmantles. Almost any blow landed by Sanguis would have been sufficient to put one out of commision. Hell, he flat-out skewered one right off the bat despite only having a vague idea it might be there.

Nonetheless, this one was a clear mea culpa. The encounters I statted up for the cave system were balanced so as to give a difficult challange to a fully stocked party, whilst this week I was working with half a party and didn't adjust accordingly. I have little doubt that the full party could have handled this week's challenges with no problem.

The dead players' next characters will be:
Hikari: L? ??? Elf Death Knight
Anu Ra: L? ??? (probably Human) Death Knight
Sanguis: NE Human Druid

Death Knights, by the way, are essentially Paladins altered with undead-themed powers. They can be of any Lawful alignment.

Marnath
2010-11-14, 02:26 AM
Aaandd...It never occured to you to tone the encounters down when only half your players showed up? Seriously...elementals and then darkmantles against people who can't see in the dark? I don't mean this harshly, but you couldn't hit the line between difficult and lethal with a rifle from where you ended up.

Kylarra
2010-11-14, 02:28 AM
It is worth pointing out, I guess, that 2 CR 3 monsters is an EL 5, so that would've been a tricky fight even if all 6 party members were there, particularly with melee types against earth elementals which are really just big blobs of HP and damage. +9 to hit and D8+8 damage will add up pretty fast.

Drakevarg
2010-11-14, 02:32 AM
Aaandd...It never occured to you to tone the encounters down when only half your players showed up? Seriously...elementals and then darkmantles against people who can't see in the dark? I don't mean this harshly, but you couldn't hit the line between difficult and lethal with a rifle from where you ended up.

Well, they had a light for the elemental fight. And the Darkmantles didn't seem like a problem after Sanguis one-shotted one. And clearly, no, it didn't occur to me until 2/3 of the party was taken down in 3 shots.

The reason half the party was absent today, btw, was because we got this winter's first snowfall and they didn't want to drive.

Nohwl
2010-11-14, 03:09 AM
if you're going to keep throwing encounters like that at the party, you should probably give them another level. don't increase the difficulty because of the level. going up to level 3 will allow the full casters to have access to second level spells which should help (i'm not sure about that cast a spell and have a chance to summon a demon thing you are using), everyone would get a new feat, and it will give them all a little more hp so you have a little more leeway when designing the encounters.

Drakevarg
2010-11-14, 03:23 AM
if you're going to keep throwing encounters like that at the party, you should probably give them another level. don't increase the difficulty because of the level. going up to level 3 will allow the full casters to have access to second level spells which should help (i'm not sure about that cast a spell and have a chance to summon a demon thing you are using), everyone would get a new feat, and it will give them all a little more hp so you have a little more leeway when designing the encounters.

All of the dead characters will be starting at Level 3. By the time they get out of this cave, all of the survivin characters will probably hit Level 3.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-14, 03:44 AM
You need to learn to use an online D20 encounter calculator.

http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm

For example, you might want to shoot for a single "Challenging" encounter, for each and EVERY fight you run!

With 3 ECL 2 characters, that would be, say, an EL2 encounter, which could be:

3 cr 1/2 creatures

1 CR 1 and 1 CR 1/2 creature

4 CR 1/3 and 1 CR 1/6.

Start using this!

Hawk7915
2010-11-14, 04:03 AM
You need to learn to use an online D20 encounter calculator.

http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm

For example, you might want to shoot for a single "Challenging" encounter, for each and EVERY fight you run!

With 3 ECL 2 characters, that would be, say, an EL2 encounter, which could be:

3 cr 1/2 creatures

1 CR 1 and 1 CR 1/2 creature

4 CR 1/3 and 1 CR 1/6.

Start using this!

This is a good advice. However, I'll hop on and mention that you shouldn't beat yourself up too much. Yes, you should have probably only thrown one of these creatures at the party. Or lowered them to Small ones from the word go. Or chosen something that didn't have a nigh-unhittable AC at this level (although most monsters that fit that description also hit much harder). But it sounds like they could have played smarter and honestly, D&D from 1-4 or so is just a total random rocket tag death game. "Miss, miss, miss, INSTANT KILL!" is pretty common at these levels.

Drakevarg
2010-11-14, 04:05 AM
I was aiming for a CR 4/5 encounter, with time to rest between each one so there would be no concern of fighting at less than full strength. (Although with the Darkmantles, Sanguis neglected to take a second potion of cure moderate wounds and left himself at half health.)

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-14, 04:18 AM
I was aiming for a CR 4/5 encounter, with time to rest between each one so there would be no concern of fighting at less than full strength. (Although with the Darkmantles, Sanguis neglected to take a second potion of cure moderate wounds and left himself at half health.)

That's the thing -- aim for, with THREE LEVEL 2 PC's, a CR 2/3 encounter.

See that chart, where it says how difficult the encounter is, and what percentage of encounters should be like that? Fill in the party levels, and don't send them any encounters where the percentage of encounters that should be like that is under, say, 15%.

So, in other words, never EVER send them encounters above 'very difficult', for their CURRENT party loadout. EVER.

Drakevarg
2010-11-14, 04:21 AM
That's the thing -- aim for, with THREE LEVEL 2 PC's, a CR 2/3 encounter.

Point.

I should alter my encounter lists to have a secondary calculator for half-parties, since this is not infrequent. (I use the AngryDM's Slaughterhouse rules, for those of you who have heard of it.)

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-14, 04:25 AM
I edited my original post, btw...

Just use the calculator, and never go above 'very difficult', ever. Plug in the current number and level of the PC's, and figure out what challenge ratings you should throw at them, and then send appropriately CRed creatures (ie, nothing that they can't effect, nothing that negates most of their abilities, nothing that they can't sense, no 'gotcha' monsters that they have no way to solve, etc.) to fill those challenge ratings at them, and give them an appropriate amount of gold, useful equipment based treasure, and XP.

TroubleBrewing
2010-11-14, 06:18 AM
It is worth pointing out, I guess, that 2 CR 3 monsters is an EL 5, so that would've been a tricky fight even if all 6 party members were there

This. I hit the 2nd paragraph of the OP and went straight for the MM, thinking "There are no medium-sized elementals that are CR 2..."

Even for 6 level 2 PC's, the party optimization level was way, way, way over their heads. An EL 5 encounter uses up 25% of a level 5 group's resources.

On the bright side, you killed three elves! They could have been real people who mattered. Like humans. Or gnomes.

Aharon
2010-11-14, 08:01 AM
So, after only reading the introduction of your post, the best way to survive your campaign is to not show up :smalltongue:

(Sorry, couldn't keep that to myself. I might be able to edit in useful advice later, but I had to get this out of my system.)

Edit:
Well, I don't have to add a lot. You could also continue throwing the things at the players they get at the moment, but either let them have really high stats (Full hit points each level, High point buy), or encourage them to optimize.
But perhaps I'm not the person you want to get advice from, I somehow shun killing player characters even when it would be the logical thing to do (8 member party loosing fight against one optimised CR+2 Spellcaster).

elpollo
2010-11-14, 09:56 AM
Well, you realise what you did wrong. It's always a pain when people don't turn up (although with half the party gone that might be time to start thinking about one-shots/board games), so I feel for you.

I was getting totally geared up for a fire-and-brimstone response when I looked up "medium" earth elementals and accidentally looked at large instead (I have realised my mistake, though). I disagree with people saying "Always stick to the ECL calculator" - whilst it can give you an idea of the difficulty of a fight, terrain, tactics, the party, the monster, etc. throw this all out of whack, and what you think to be an easy encounter can turn into a lethal one (and vice versa). The best way to balance encounters, particularly at low levels, is to check the monster stats - if the monster can one-shot a party member with its average damage it's probably too much (the medium elemental can one-shot the average Con 12-13 d6 HD class, which you probably have one or more of [rogues/wizards]), if the party are only hitting on 18-20 it's too much, if they will take longer on average to kill it than it will take to kill them it's too much, etc. Factor in surprise rounds (and cover, range, etc.) - the earth elementals got the drop on the party, so that's probably 2 hits right there, plus potentially another from a bad initiative roll, which means that two party members are now probably one hit away from being down.

The fight with the darkmantles would have been a perfectly doable fight if they had light (and also a third or fourth party member, which they would have had if we ignore the earth elemental fight). These are Intelligence 2 creatures - if you can see them and are fighting back they're probably going to think it's not worth the effort and glide off (unless they're particularly hungry). The party decided to push on in the underground passage without a light source - they are asking for trouble. Make sure they know that they need a light source. Make sure they bring one. Also make sure they have flint and steel, so in a worst case scenario you can let them find the remains of a person and some fuel (or even some torches or sunrods or whatever).

Also, a week of unconciousness? Aren't they going to be dead/dying of dehydration?

Drakevarg
2010-11-14, 10:05 AM
Also, a week of unconciousness? Aren't they going to be dead/dying of dehydration?

Well, that'd've just been a TPK they could do nothing about. So I was merciful and just said they were dying of dehydration. Thankfully, there happened to be a little stream about two inches from where they were lying, so that didn't last long.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-14, 10:16 AM
Have you tried running safer encounters, until the players have more experience?

You know, the odd goblin camp, a couple of bugbears in a seperate encounter, the boss being an ogre. A couple of level 1-2 bandits, nothing too strenuous. Effigy wolves, earth elementals, darkmantles... all have immunities and tactics that I think are above the level the players* are at. They seemed to have trouble facing them due to their monsterous nature.

Go easy mode until the players learn what the heck is going on. Goblins go squish just as easily (if not more so) as they do, and it might help their self esteem if they don't die every week :P

*Players, not PCs.

RndmNumGen
2010-11-14, 12:01 PM
Effigy wolves, earth elementals, darkmantles... all have immunities and tactics that I think are above the level the players* are at.
[...]

*Players, not PCs.

This, pretty much. That encounter would have been fine for an optimized party who knew their way around the game, but for players who are just learning about how their class works, it is probably a lot more then they could handle. I remember in one of the first campaigns I played where we were fought an Imp and some kind of low-CR ooze that isn't in the SRD. The encounter was rated as "Challenging" for our party, but we got completely thrashed because we didn't know how to handle the Imp, and sort of ignored the ooze while it was beating on us because we were freaking out about the imp. In the end it almost caused a TPK, and the only reason the party lived was because the last man standing dropped his weapons, ran at full sprint down the tunnel and grabbed the McGuffin that teleported everyone out of the dungeon(it's what we were sent to get in the first place).

DaragosKitsune
2010-11-14, 12:06 PM
Have you tried running safer encounters, until the players have more experience?

You know, the odd goblin camp, a couple of bugbears in a seperate encounter, the boss being an ogre. A couple of level 1-2 bandits, nothing too strenuous. Effigy wolves, earth elementals, darkmantles... all have immunities and tactics that I think are above the level the players* are at. They seemed to have trouble facing them due to their monsterous nature.

Go easy mode until the players learn what the heck is going on. Goblins go squish just as easily (if not more so) as they do, and it might help their self esteem if they don't die every week :P

*Players, not PCs.

I've read some of Psycho's stuff before. Stuff like that would be completely against the point of this campaign. It is supposed to be highly lethal.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-14, 12:11 PM
I've read some of Psycho's stuff before. Stuff like that would be completely against the point of this campaign. It is supposed to be highly lethal.

Except he's making the difficulty level for the players too high for them to cope with. It's like saying "Okay, I'll show you how to play a first person shooter" and then giving them Doom on Nightmare level. And not teaching them the controls. Or letting them play on Easy first.

Thing is, maybe this campaign is a little TOO hard for the PLAYERS? I know Psycho wants to run it like this, but players dying in almost every encounter? Give them a tutorial campaign first. Then when they're seasoned, then they can play in the highly lethal campaign.

The point isn't to make it easy for the player characters, but to make it easy for the players, at least at first. No matter what level the PCs are, the players are still level 1 roleplayers, and Psycho is sending high CR encounters against them.

If you get my meaning.

Edit: I guess it's similar to storytelling or filmmaking, in a way. You have to set up the audience with set rules. You can't subvert it with creatures that are immune to critical hits or flanking until the players learn what critical hits and flanking ARE.

Save the princess and slay the demon, get a magic sword and get half the kingdom. The cliches are there for a reason. The audience cannot handle subversions and exceptions to the rules until they know the baseline.

ashmanonar
2010-11-14, 12:30 PM
Except he's making the difficulty level for the players too high for them to cope with. It's like saying "Okay, I'll show you how to play a first person shooter" and then giving them Doom on Nightmare level. And not teaching them the controls. Or letting them play on Easy first.

Thing is, maybe this campaign is a little TOO hard for the PLAYERS? I know Psycho wants to run it like this, but players dying in almost every encounter? Give them a tutorial campaign first. Then when they're seasoned, then they can play in the highly lethal campaign.

The point isn't to make it easy for the player characters, but to make it easy for the players, at least at first. No matter what level the PCs are, the players are still level 1 roleplayers, and Psycho is sending high CR encounters against them.

If you get my meaning.

I absolutely agree.

Hell, CR 1/2 orcs with the right item selection can be absolutely lethal to level 1 PC's. As soon as you start throwing immunities or other restrictions on the monsters, that's raising the cr (for your party).

Nohwl
2010-11-14, 12:50 PM
psycho, are you following wealth by level? if you aren't giving them as much gold as they should have, it's going to really hurt them, and it might be a good idea to put them at level 4.

Cogidubnus
2010-11-14, 01:04 PM
On the bright side, you killed three elves! They could have been real people who mattered. Like humans. Or gnomes.

Hahahaha. Awesome.

I have to agree with the rest of the thread. When I've seen you come here with a TPK, you've been throwing encounters at them that are 2-4 times the CR they can handle. Try one monster of a CR = the party's average level, and see what happens. At these low levels, no matter who you are, optimising is basically nil because you've got so few abilities, and you don't have the HP and flexibility of higher levels that means that one really hard fight then a rest is a viable strategy.

Another note: the situation was awful for these characters. They had one melee fighter, I think, and the animal companion? Yet in the first encounter the soft targets had no way to not get hit by their enemies, so they went down pretty fast. In the second encounter, they only had a 50% chance of ever hitting if their enemies didn't move after attacking, so they were in serious trouble anyway.

Drakevarg
2010-11-14, 01:19 PM
psycho, are you following wealth by level? if you aren't giving them as much gold as they should have, it's going to really hurt them, and it might be a good idea to put them at level 4.

The ranger had 9 potions of cure moderate wounds, which is actually beyond their WBL.

So no, I don't follow WBL (except during initial chargen). They get what they come across, which could either be super-awesome-fantastic, or crap. The last couple of fights have been versus cave monsters, so not much in the way of treasure to be had. But once they get around to fighting humanoid opponents, they'll have plenty of loot. (Assuming they don't just take a small ammount of it and toss the rest in the ocean like they did last time.)

---

Anyway, I'm not gonna quote any one person since it's been said by several:

On the players not being prepared to handle such advanced tactics:
Apart from momentarily balking at the idea of hurting a rock monster (which turned out to be fairly easy), strategy wasn't much of an issue in this fight. "Monsters over there, kill they ass."

On using weaker, CR-appropriate encounters:
As was mentioned, that would be against the point of the campaign. I try to set every fight as "Very Difficult" to use the DMG terms. EL 1-4 higher than party level. The only exception is when the singular purpose is XP-fodder, like the centipedes.

Nohwl
2010-11-14, 01:38 PM
The ranger had 9 potions of cure moderate wounds, which is actually beyond their WBL.

So no, I don't follow WBL (except during initial chargen). They get what they come across, which could either be super-awesome-fantastic, or crap. The last couple of fights have been versus cave monsters, so not much in the way of treasure to be had. But once they get around to fighting humanoid opponents, they'll have plenty of loot. (Assuming they don't just take a small ammount of it and toss the rest in the ocean like they did last time.)

well, you can't do too much if the players don't take the loot you leave for them. potions of cure x wounds usually aren't the best use of wealth by level. a wand of cure light wounds would give much more healing out of combat and it would be cheaper.

Cogidubnus
2010-11-14, 01:43 PM
The ranger had 9 potions of cure moderate wounds, which is actually beyond their WBL.

So no, I don't follow WBL (except during initial chargen). They get what they come across, which could either be super-awesome-fantastic, or crap. The last couple of fights have been versus cave monsters, so not much in the way of treasure to be had. But once they get around to fighting humanoid opponents, they'll have plenty of loot. (Assuming they don't just take a small ammount of it and toss the rest in the ocean like they did last time.)

---

Anyway, I'm not gonna quote any one person since it's been said by several:

On the players not being prepared to handle such advanced tactics:
Apart from momentarily balking at the idea of hurting a rock monster (which turned out to be fairly easy), strategy wasn't much of an issue in this fight. "Monsters over there, kill they ass."

On using weaker, CR-appropriate encounters:
As was mentioned, that would be against the point of the campaign. I try to set every fight as "Very Difficult" to use the DMG terms. EL 1-4 higher than party level. The only exception is when the singular purpose is XP-fodder, like the centipedes.

ECL 1 higher, then. 4 higher is fine at, say, level 12, when you have 5th level spells, charge use items, and other such stuff you can burn to give you an edge. 3-4 higher at level 2 and they just can't hit it, and if they do it won't notice.

Aharon
2010-11-14, 01:43 PM
I'm curious what this paragraph


A few hours further down the tunnel, Sanguis suddenly feels something close around his feet. At the same time, something moves past Hikari's ear. Both give a startled yelp. Wondering what all the commotion is, Anu Ra turns around (the marching order is Sanguis -> Anu Ra -> Anu Ra's Animal Companion, Fang -> Hikari) and sees that the tunnel behind Hikari seems to have closed up. He opts to simply stand there, dumbfounded.


means, game mechanically.

Also, was


Taking a clue from Hikari, Sanguis draws his wakizashi (there isn't enough room in the tight tunnel for a katana) and slashes at the elemental in front of him.

DM Fiat? I'm a bit rusty on this particular topic, but I don't remember tight places restricting the kind of weapons you can use, just giving a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.


Now, it was around here that I concluded that this was an unstoppable murder-machine, and that the party was doomed if I didn't pull some fiat. So, I spontaneously lowered the elementals' stats to that of Small Earth Elementals, as opposed to Medium. I had them have taken the same ammount of damage though, which with the lowered stats went from "irrelevent scratches" to "half-dead."


Well, the TPK could have been avoided if you had simply omitted the "I had them have taken the same amount of damage though" step. At this point, it might have been ok to just let them fight the small earth elemental and see how they manage. If they win easily, you could have used more of them, or advanced ones, or whatever.


An indeterminate period of time later (a week, if you're curious), Hikari and Sanguis wake up, being both in the negatives and with exactly the same HP remaining. Anu Ra is well on his way to decay and Fang is nowhere to be seen. Each swigging back a potion of cure moderate wounds (nicked off the betrayed Legionnaires), they loot Anu Ra for what they can use (ultimately just 3 gp and 100 ft. of hempen rope) and continue on their way.


Why did this take a week? You didn't seem to have followed the rules found in the injury and death chapter here. If the ranger had stabilized in time, he might have been able to save the druid with one of his potions.

Some advice you might consider giving your players:
Better spell selection => The druid's spells could have been better. There aren't many phenomenal things on this level, but I think the spell compendium has one "act while below 0hp", which might have saved him here.
There's also Obscuring mist for a 20% miss chance, which might have helped them evade the elementals when they noticed it didn't go well.
Better tactics =>
Earth elementals have a movement speed of 20 ft. The characters didn't want to fight them (it was basically a random encounter, if I understood correctly, not related to the main plot with the effigy-creating wizard), they had no reason to fight them (elemenals aren't known for carrying lots of loot), so they could have escaped.

Edit:
Also, if you're content with the danger of your campaign, why do you come for advice? The DMG clearly states that such encounters can result in PC death or even TPKs. Your players would need to play extremely optimized characters to deal with that kind of stuff and succeed over a long time. Probability is against them.
There is no way to achieve both your goals, dangerous opponents and evading TPKs. You'll have to compromise on one. And seeing how your players keep coming back, I would advise just going on the way you do - they don't seem to mind the PC death.

Swordguy
2010-11-14, 01:45 PM
You screwed up. No sugar-coating it. But unlike a bunch of people here, I'm going to say that screwing up is OK. This is how you learn. You've analyzed your mistakes and sought advice, and that's the best thing you can do to improve your GMing skills. Ignore the stuff here about "the best way to survive your campaign is not to show up" (while it's most likely meant as a joke, it doesn't help).

Now, what can you do with your players? Well, here's the thing. You screwed up. You can ALWAYS retain the option, since half the party wasn't there, to take a mulligan and when the whole party shows up, "unwind" time and run the scenario again, with a full party (and this time, double-checking your CRs against the PCs). If somebody who died wants to create a new character, let them. Take the hit and admit you screwed up, and offer to run the same thing again with the whole party. MOST groups will be understanding about such things, especially as they won't be getting penalized (permanently dead) for your mistake. That will also make things better for you later on in the campaign if somebody dies later on. If you're willing to admit you screwed up, have done so, and then don't do so later on, your party will probably be more understanding of PC death, and will be less likely to get upset over "GM screwups" if somebody does die.

Aharon
2010-11-14, 01:56 PM
@Swordguy
Seeing how you commented on my comment, I want to inform you that I took account of Psycho's history when posting it. He has very harsh rules (1d6+8 for attributes) and consistently uses highly dangerous stuff (seehere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171268), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174934) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172482)).

Marnath
2010-11-14, 02:19 PM
The ranger had 9 potions of cure moderate wounds, which is actually beyond their WBL.


Can't drink potions if you get your butt kicked.
Seriously though, I thought we explained why you need to lower encounter strength when the effigies came along. If we hadn't gotten you to change the bear your PC's would have gotten smeared. We weren't kididng when we told you there's a difference between really hard and just flat out impossible.

Cogidubnus
2010-11-14, 02:28 PM
@Swordguy
Seeing how you commented on my comment, I want to inform you that I took account of Psycho's history when posting it. He has very harsh rules (1d6+8 for attributes) and consistently uses highly dangerous stuff (seehere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171268), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174934) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172482)).

Actually, this is a point. Psycho, why do you keep coming to the Playground with these? By now, you must KNOW your parties will die when you throw encounters at them that are 3-4 CR above their level. You do it so often. If you don't compromise on the difficulty of your encounters, which you don't want to do, nothing will change.

Ed: Although, Kudos on letting the PCs level up even though they died. That's good of you, as they couldn't have done much else, at least with the elementals (even if as a general rule your PCs continue to repeat ineffectual tactics).

Kylarra
2010-11-14, 02:38 PM
At low levels, EL+1 is swingy enough to significantly cripple the party, EL+2 is a decent chance of TPK and +3/4 is simply ridiculous.

MrRigger
2010-11-14, 02:42 PM
@Aharon
To be fair, Psycho has gotten better about some things after he started coming here. He no longer uses 1d6+8 for attributes, instead using 2d6+6. As for spell selection, Psycho has a fairly short list of available books, and I don't think Spell Compendium is on the list.

MrRigger

Drakevarg
2010-11-14, 04:07 PM
I'm curious what this paragraph means, game mechanically.

They're in an extremely narrow tunnel. There is zero room to maneuver around one another, so they're all in a straight line, in the aforementioned marching order. Sanguis and Hikari both give out a yelp, and Anu Ra turns around to see what the commotion is. He sees that the tunnel appears to have simply vanished, a rock wall where it should be. He simply stands there gawking, i.e., took no action that round.


Also, was [this] DM Fiat? I'm a bit rusty on this particular topic, but I don't remember tight places restricting the kind of weapons you can use, just giving a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

It's not RAW, I don't think, but there simply wasn't physically enough room to draw a katana, let alone use it in combat. The tunnel was that small.


Well, the TPK could have been avoided if you had simply omitted the "I had them have taken the same amount of damage though" step. At this point, it might have been ok to just let them fight the small earth elemental and see how they manage. If they win easily, you could have used more of them, or advanced ones, or whatever.

They barely survived the fight as-is. Had I not had the elementals take the same ammount of damage as they had when they were Medium-sized, they would've had twice as much health as they did and probably would have killed them.


Why did this take a week? You didn't seem to have followed the rules found in the injury and death chapter here. If the ranger had stabilized in time, he might have been able to save the druid with one of his potions.

Hard to give the Druid a potion when you're unconcious. Stable doesn't mean awake. It means you're not bleeding.


Earth elementals have a movement speed of 20 ft. The characters didn't want to fight them (it was basically a random encounter, if I understood correctly, not related to the main plot with the effigy-creating wizard), they had no reason to fight them (elemenals aren't known for carrying lots of loot), so they could have escaped.

The elementals are in front and behind them in a cramped tunnel. Unless they managed to bull rush the things (hard to bull rush a rock), there was no way out.


Edit:
Also, if you're content with the danger of your campaign, why do you come for advice?

Partially, I've just gotten into the habit of posting my latest ****up here and letting the Playground remark on it.


At low levels, EL+1 is swingy enough to significantly cripple the party, EL+2 is a decent chance of TPK and +3/4 is simply ridiculous.

This is a rather handy rule of thumb.


@Aharon
To be fair, Psycho has gotten better about some things after he started coming here. He no longer uses 1d6+8 for attributes, instead using 2d6+6. As for spell selection, Psycho has a fairly short list of available books, and I don't think Spell Compendium is on the list.

Correct on the Spell Compendium thing. My list of available books is in my sig.

And as a bonus, after the cliff incident, I decided that I'm going to give my PCs one free 18 for all future CharGens. Just because I personally hate not having at least one.

Marnath
2010-11-14, 04:12 PM
Thats not how it works, Psycho. Stable characters and recovery. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#stableCharactersandRecovery) When you're stable, you get HOURLY checks to wake up, not to regain hp. If you fail to wake up, you lose a hit point.

Drakevarg
2010-11-14, 04:14 PM
Thats not how it works, Psycho. Stable characters and recovery. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#stableCharactersandRecovery) When you're stable, you get HOURLY checks to wake up, not to regain hp. If you fail to wake up, you lose a hit point.

I was ruling that if you're in the negatives, you're unconcious, period (unless you have Diehard or the equivalent). You wake up automatically when your HP is in the positives again.

Also, if I was going by the RAW in this particular incident, they would almost certaintly would've died then and there. They were both at -6.

Marnath
2010-11-14, 04:16 PM
I was ruling that if you're in the negatives, you're unconcious, period (unless you have Diehard or the equivalent). You wake up automatically when your HP is in the positives again.

With 8 hours sleep, which you have from being unconscious, you regain a hit point per level. At most that means 3 days to regain conciousness. Since they're 3rd level.

Drakevarg
2010-11-14, 04:18 PM
With 8 hours sleep, which you have from being unconscious, you regain a hit point per level. At most that means 3 days to regain conciousness. Since they're 3rd level.

2nd, so four days to hit positives. Either way, they were never told how long they were out, so I can just Schroedinger it.

[Edit]: Or, since a full day of activity-free rest doubles the rate, two days.

Earthwalker
2010-11-15, 06:47 AM
A few things.

Psycho you seem ok to ignore rules or make your own when its at a disadvantage of your players, not being able to use katanas in a fight, not getting a chance to wake up till you are at posative HP. You seem less inclided to ignore rules or make up things to help the players.

I say seems as this might not be at all true, just in the examples I have read.

My main reason for writing this is to ask Psycho some questions.

What do you think the character could have done to survive the first encounter with elementals. Same for the second encounter ?
What are you trying to teach the players and the characters about the world ?
What can your do you think your playersshould be doing to keep their characters alive in your world, do you think they know what you are thinking ?

Valameer
2010-11-15, 10:49 AM
I love these threads, it's like watching a good horror movie!

Hikari was my favorite character, though, and now she's dead.

Oh well, so long as your players are having fun, it sounds like a entertaining campaign!

...at least to read about.

Tyndmyr
2010-11-15, 10:57 AM
I was aiming for a CR 4/5 encounter, with time to rest between each one so there would be no concern of fighting at less than full strength. (Although with the Darkmantles, Sanguis neglected to take a second potion of cure moderate wounds and left himself at half health.)

With a party of four level 2s, then a CR 2 encounter is perfectly appropriate. CR 4/5 encounters are quite dangerous and likely to result in a body even with all six players there.

Again, I repeat the same advice I say every time you post one of these threads where everything goes horribly wrong and you doom the party. Read the books, stop changing the rules, and give them appropriate encounters.

Hawk7915
2010-11-15, 11:41 AM
Hey Psycho, out of curiosity, have you ever considered "Call of Cthulu"? In that setting, most of the appeal is that players frequently only have a 1-in-100 chance to not die a terrible gruesome death, but that's actually okay because survival means become brutally insane. It seems like it might be more the vibe you're wanting from D&D (which allows for it, but frequently only through altering the rules as you do to doom players).

elpollo
2010-11-15, 12:35 PM
Hey Psycho, out of curiosity, have you ever considered "Call of Cthulu"? In that setting, most of the appeal is that players frequently only have a 1-in-100 chance to not die a terrible gruesome death, but that's actually okay because survival means become brutally insane.

Eh... I'm gonna have to disagree with this one. Call of Cthulhu certainly has the potential to be a lethal system, but it's not what most people are attracted to. People are attracted to it for a "Average Joe against the inevitable" type situation. It takes much longer to make a CoC character than it does to make a first level D&D character. Also, those odds seem way off, particularly for the long campaigns.



It seems like it might be more the vibe you're wanting from D&D (which allows for it, but frequently only through altering the rules as you do to doom players).

Also, D&D can easily do a gritty system without much changing (Vitality and Wound points, anyone? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm)).

Kylarra
2010-11-15, 12:41 PM
Hey Psycho, out of curiosity, have you ever considered "Call of Cthulu"? In that setting, most of the appeal is that players frequently only have a 1-in-100 chance to not die a terrible gruesome death, but that's actually okay because survival means become brutally insane. It seems like it might be more the vibe you're wanting from D&D (which allows for it, but frequently only through altering the rules as you do to doom players).We've suggested it to him frequently actually. He chooses to adjust D&D rules due to mainly financial issues, and a lack of desire to learn new rules when he can modify D&D ones.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 01:24 PM
What do you think the character could have done to survive the first encounter with elementals. Same for the second encounter ?

If the party was at full strength, which the encounter was set for, and didn't freeze up at the idea of stabbing a rock to death, I think they could've simply powered through via the standard "full attack until dead" route. Maybe a fatality or two, but I honestly don't mind that. It's only TPKs that bug me.

On the other hand, as I said in the OP it was my fault for not adjusting the fights to begin with. Had I used Small Elementals to begin with, it might not've been such a close call. Don't think reducing the number of Darkmantles woul've helped much, though. Sanguis wasn't at full strength, and the Darkmantles just got lucky and took them both out pretty quickly.


What are you trying to teach the players and the characters about the world ?

That everything can potentially kill you (and will probably try). :smalltongue:


What can your do you think your playersshould be doing to keep their characters alive in your world, do you think they know what you are thinking ?

Stay on their toes and don't take chances unless it's worth the risk. Be ready to run your ass off and hide if nessicary.

Marnath
2010-11-15, 02:09 PM
If you already knew that they died because you didn't bother to cut down the fight when 50% of your players were gone, what exactly do you want from us besides a "don't do things like that" ? Really no advice we can give you that we haven't already.

Frosty
2010-11-15, 02:31 PM
As a DM, I've mostly stopped writing out encounter details ahead of time. I adjust the makeup and number of enemies on the fly, and even stats on the fly, depending on the situation.

Earthwalker
2010-11-15, 04:31 PM
That everything can potentially kill you (and will probably try). :smalltongue:

So do you think that the party should not have gone into the cave system, by you own estimate they would have lost 2 characters in the first fight, and then two more in the second ? I am guessing this wasn't something they should be doing ?




Stay on their toes and don't take chances unless it's worth the risk. Be ready to run your ass off and hide if nessicary.

It was my understanding in the first fight that they had no where to run to, with elementals blocking both exits ?
When you need light to see but your enemy may not, can you hide in a cave. Turn off the light and wait in the dark to die ?
Is this just a don't go in the cave message ?
Stay outside, if something comes close run ?

Myth
2010-11-15, 05:10 PM
I know Psycho likes reporting posts who even thread the border of GitP's strict rules if they make him unhappy. So I will say only this - your players should roll some Tier 1 characters and play them to their strengths or you should tone down your encounters and/or house rules. That's assuming you want an opinion on the matter, which I assume you do since you keep posting these threads who, most of the time, mention PC deaths or TPKs.

Aharon
2010-11-15, 05:26 PM
They're in an extremely narrow tunnel. There is zero room to maneuver around one another, so they're all in a straight line, in the aforementioned marching order. Sanguis and Hikari both give out a yelp, and Anu Ra turns around to see what the commotion is. He sees that the tunnel appears to have simply vanished, a rock wall where it should be. He simply stands there gawking, i.e., took no action that round.


You could have allowed them a knowledge(arcana? not sure what's needed to identify elementals) check to find out what's going on, so that they don't waste the round.

Given your style, I still think Obscuring Mist would be a good spell choice for the druid. Helps with escapes. Longstrider for +10ft. speed is also useful for escaping. I'll look into the books you have available to find other stuff your group could do.

Thurbane
2010-11-15, 05:36 PM
Long story short - I get that you want to run a "survival horror" type campaign. However, I don't understand how you can be surprised each time throwing CR inappropraite encounters at your party results in a TPK.

I believe we have established that your players aren't great at optimizing, or tactics. You also have a group where a significant portion of the party seems to not turn up at times.

I suppose the most important question is...are the players having fun? Not to judge your DMing style, but I don't personally know a single player who would enjoy getting his character ganked by a high CR monster every other session. I have run games where I have thrown quite challenging (but not totally lethal) encounters at the party consistently, and it lead to the group asking me "Hey, can't we have an easy encounter once in a while? Does every single combat have to be touch and go if we survive?".

Personally, I think you can do survival horror genre without every encounter being wildly over CR'd. Also, you seem to throw some seemingly random house rules in that tend to hurt the players chances.

Having said all of that, if your players are happy with the game, then ignore my advice. :smallsmile:

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 05:47 PM
Having said all of that, if your players are happy with the game, then ignore my advice. :smallsmile:

His players say they have fun with the roleplaying, but when it comes to combat that it's a little annoying that everything feels virtually impossible to defeat. They didn't make a big show about saying so, so I feel that Psycho thinks this is a blessing to go ahead and keep making the same mistakes over and over.

TL;DR - His players are nice people, and not complainers.

Thurbane
2010-11-15, 05:54 PM
His players say they have fun with the roleplaying, but when it comes to combat that it's a little annoying that everything feels virtually impossible to defeat. They didn't make a big show about saying so, so I feel that Psycho thinks this is a blessing to go ahead and keep making the same mistakes over and over.

TL;DR - His players are nice people, and not complainers.
I see - I must say, from what I've read, it does sound like his game is fairly immersive, with a good story. But as I said, most all players I know would get pretty disheartened with characters dying as often as seems to happen in this game. While they might not come right out and complain, there is always a danger that some might get bummed out by continually losing the characters they are trying to develop...even to the point where they drop out of the game.

For me, a big part of the fun of D&D is developing and nurturing your character from low levels, through his career. Contrasted with this is another game I used to play, Twilight 2000. because it was a pretty high mortality game (no magic curing, bullets can kill with one shot), I never got particularly attached to any of my characters, and usually had a generic backup for when my current character took a 7.62mm to the head. While I did enjoy my games of Twilight 2000, I never found it as immersive or long term enjoyable as I did with D&D. All of my group pretty much feel the same.

Susano-wo
2010-11-15, 06:04 PM
I htink there is an issue with this encounter that no one seems to be comenting on (sorry if I forgot any posts[ok, I guess Earthwalker mentioned it:smallredface:]): the biggest issue isn't the power of the elementals, since by now the players are choosing to play this campaign knowing its survival horror style. Its the dm deciding to throw earth elementals in a litterally can't draw a katana(ok, probably figuratively since he could draw and fight with the wakizashi) narrow tunnel, and having them surround the players from the get go.
Therefore they have to fight these stupidly powerful monsters...when you want them to evaluate whether or not to fight things.

I would be upset at this. Not so much the difficulty(I am obviously choosing to play in the campaign knowing the difficulty/style) but in the gm screwage of it being totally unavoidable, when he could have simly had the elementals appear in a single direction from the party.

also, yeah, the whole negative hp= always unconcious thing...how does this add to the game? its neither any more realistic, nor more fun/cool for people.:smallfrown:

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 06:07 PM
For me, the fact that half the party didn't show should be very telling. When people are thoroughly enjoying themselves playing D&D, they set aside time for it. When they start to get annoyed, bored, or frustrated many people will make up excuses for why they can't be there rather than cause drama by criticizing a DM. They often view it as easier than having the discussion about why they are frustrated.

Tavar
2010-11-15, 06:09 PM
It's not that they were too busy, it's that their was snow. I don't know how much, but depending on how deep it was that would be plenty of reason for most.

Thurbane
2010-11-15, 06:12 PM
Actually, that is a relevant point...from the other threads I have read, most of these encounters have had little room for the party to decide to flee. Some have been in confined spaces with no obvious exits, and others have been with creatures that can outrun the party.

In this example, the party have decided to stay in a cave after seeing many giant centipedes outside the exit (if I'm reading the OP correctly), and then get ambushed in a narrow tunnel, in front and behind, by creatures that literally come out of the walls.

As a DM, I personally believe there is nothing wrong with throwing the occasional encounter at a party that they should run from...but you really need to give them somewhere to run. If they don't perceive an obvious escape route, most players will resolutely stand firm, even in the face of overwhelming odds.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 06:13 PM
It's not that they were too busy, it's that their was snow. I don't know how much, but depending on how deep it was that would be plenty of reason for most.

I must have missed that, and I still can't find it. Quote?

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 06:28 PM
I must have missed that, and I still can't find it. Quote?


The reason half the party was absent today, btw, was because we got this winter's first snowfall and they didn't want to drive.

Right hither.


So do you think that the party should not have gone into the cave system, by you own estimate they would have lost 2 characters in the first fight, and then two more in the second ? I am guessing this wasn't something they should be doing ?

The cave was probably the best choice of shelter at the time, since they knew there were probably more effigy wolves in the woods (which admittedly would've probably had an even harder time getting down the cliff than the PCs did).

On the other hand, simply camping at the base of the cliff would've worked too, unless they were met by a Legion patrol, which would be Very Bad on account of them having just TK'd several Legionnaires.


It was my understanding in the first fight that they had no where to run to, with elementals blocking both exits ?
When you need light to see but your enemy may not, can you hide in a cave. Turn off the light and wait in the dark to die ?
Is this just a don't go in the cave message ?
Stay outside, if something comes close run ?

Well, running isn't always an option. (Though they could've bull rushed the elementals.) And having only a single torch to light your way is probably not a good idea either.

(Gonna edit this post with further responses.)


I know Psycho likes reporting posts who even thread the border of GitP's strict rules if they make him unhappy.

I don't know where you get that idea. I never report posts except blatant spam (like that thing that happened a day or two ago) and the only thread I ever requested closed was one that had gotten to the point of pretty much straight-up bashing about half a dozen pages after I'd already gotten the info I needed.


You could have allowed them a knowledge(arcana? not sure what's needed to identify elementals) check to find out what's going on, so that they don't waste the round.

I think it may have just been in-character shock.


Given your style, I still think Obscuring Mist would be a good spell choice for the druid. Helps with escapes. Longstrider for +10ft. speed is also useful for escaping. I'll look into the books you have available to find other stuff your group could do.

Might've helped. (Do darkness and obscuring mist stack?) Not that I would really expect him to prepare it. He seems to tend more towards blaster-type spells or minions.


I have run games where I have thrown quite challenging (but not totally lethal) encounters at the party consistently, and it lead to the group asking me "Hey, can't we have an easy encounter once in a while? Does every single combat have to be touch and go if we survive?".

Sadly, the one time I toss an easy encounter their way, one of the players happens to have a phobia towards the monsters of choice. :smallsigh:

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 06:29 PM
Right hither.

Gotcha, may I ask for a little elaboration? How much snow? What geographical area (if you feel okay with answering that, as it's actually important)?

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 06:35 PM
Gotcha, may I ask for a little elaboration? How much snow? What geographical area (if you feel okay with answering that, as it's actually important)?

We live in Minnesota, eh. Thing is that it was extremely slushy snow and most people probably don't have their snow tires installed yet. So combine that with the idiocy of big-city traffic (Minneapolis), it's a recipe for disaster that many people just didn't want to toy with.

Plus, the player playing Sanguis's brother Agar had to work after the session as well, so he just didn't want to be driving all over the place that day.

Susano-wo
2010-11-15, 06:41 PM
Its also a gross oversimplification to say that people never miss games they are interested in, even several members. sometimes, because of out of game drama, or work, or other obligation, or whatever, they just can't do it any given week.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 06:44 PM
Its also a gross oversimplification to say that people never miss games they are interested in, even several members. sometimes, because of out of game drama, or work, or other obligation, or whatever, they just can't do it any given week.

I think I should also point out it was really bloody cold. I had a hole in my boot and nearly got frostbitten walking to and from the game shop we hold our sessions at.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 06:52 PM
Its also a gross oversimplification to say that people never miss games they are interested in, even several members. sometimes, because of out of game drama, or work, or other obligation, or whatever, they just can't do it any given week.

It's a gross oversimplification and strawman argument to say that anybody used the word "never" and then attack that position as if it were used.

If I remember correctly (I may or may not be), missing players are typical for this group. If there is a steady pattern that the group is missing members regularly, this is very telling.

My current group has been playing together just over two years. In that time, there have been less occurrences than I can count on one hand where multiple members were absent (and in that case, the session was canceled).

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 07:00 PM
If I remember correctly (I may or may not be), missing players are typical for this group. If there is a steady pattern that the group is missing members regularly, this is very telling.

My current group has been playing together just over two years. In that time, there have been less occurrences than I can count on one hand where multiple members were absent (and in that case, the session was canceled).

I have seven players, plus two more considering joining, all of whom are 18 at the oldest. Only one of them drives and he has a job. Three of them are in high school, one of which lives on the other side of town.

Every time a player is absent, I've been aware of why they're missing. This isn't not not wanting to play, this is having real-world obligations that supercede gaming.

Thurbane
2010-11-15, 07:02 PM
Its also a gross oversimplification to say that people never miss games they are interested in, even several members. sometimes, because of out of game drama, or work, or other obligation, or whatever, they just can't do it any given week.
I'm probably not the best judge of this. There are two things I almost never miss...D&D games, and outing to the pub. :smallbiggrin:

I think in my 20+ years of gaming, I may have missed about 2 D&D sessions. And then, only due to serious illness. My 1 year "anniversary" with an ex-girlfirend fell on a D&D night once. Let's just say that my decision to go to the gamne regardless might have a little to do with the "-ex" part. :smalltongue:

...basically, I attend D&D sessions with fanatical zeal, so I always get a bit grumpy when people bail on a game. One of my players did this last night, about an hour or two before the game, and I didn't have a copy of his (newly levelled up) character sheet. To make matters worse, he was also holding a sheet for one of the other players, who had to miss a couple of sessions due to being interstate for work. I was quite grumpy with him on the phone. I found out today he had food poisoning...I felt pretty guilty about being terse with him. :smallfrown:

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 07:07 PM
I have seven players, plus two more considering joining, all of whom are 18 at the oldest. Only one of them drives and he has a job. Three of them are in high school, one of which lives on the other side of town.

Every time a player is absent, I've been aware of why they're missing. This isn't not not wanting to play, this is having real-world obligations that supercede gaming.

That sounds fine and all, but it's pretty easy at that age to set your work availability to nearly never have to work on game night. I have just as many (actually more) obligations than any of those kids, and I still only have few and far-between problems with making it to nearly every session. Minnesota ought to have a fairly strong, fast snow response system due to its geographical location. If that's the case, not wanting to drive in the snow sounds like an excuse to me. Having plausible reasons for why you aren't there is what excuses are for, and they've already made it pretty clear that they don't want to hurt your feelings.

Players that are truly enjoying themselves and having a blast will attempt to show up except due to extenuating circumstances, it's just human nature.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 07:09 PM
Minnesota ought to have a fairly strong, fast snow response system due to its geographical location. If that's the case, not wanting to drive in the snow sounds like an excuse to me.

I wish. The roads weren't plowed 'til the next morning. :smallannoyed:


Players that are truly enjoying themselves and having a blast will attempt to show up except due to extenuating circumstances, it's just human nature.

You also have to keep in mind that as a self-supporting adult you're essentially the ruler of your own life (with the obvious caveat of needing to run it responsibly). These players are not. If their parents say they can't go, they can't go and that's the end of that.

Of the people that couldn't show up this session, two of them couldn't go because their parents weren't willing to drive them, and that was the only way they were gonna get there.

Of those who couldn't show up in previous sessions, it was either from them having obligations set upon them by their parents, or because they were in another city altogether. The one exception to this rule was one week when two of the players were busy having their anniversary.

This is not including the one with a job, who has made in clear by now that between gaming and his job, his job always comes first.

Myth
2010-11-15, 07:09 PM
He could just ask them if they're having a good time though. I mean it sure beats theoretical optimization on why the players might be missing sessions regularly.

Thurbane
2010-11-15, 07:16 PM
He could just ask them if they're having a good time though. I mean it sure beats theoretical optimization on why the players might be missing sessions regularly.
True...it's better to just ask them candidly, than speculate on their motives.

I have played in groups where players are extremely serious about not missing games, and played in others where attendance was very part time/intermittent.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 07:17 PM
I'm probably not the best judge of this. There are two things I almost never miss...D&D games, and outing to the pub. :smallbiggrin:

This has been my experience with gamers as well. It's fairly simple. If you care about gaming, you block out the evening. You mark it on an availability sheet at work. You make it clear to significant others and family that evening you are busy. When you are asked if you are free, you say no. Etc.

Players that don't care about the game will go in to work if called in that night. They will often just stay home because their girlfriend wants them to. They will come up with excuses like "the weather is really bad" (unless there's some kind of blizzard, hurricane, or tornado, you can get where you want to go, it's called safe driving).

I have missed sessions for these types of reasons:
- family wedding (once in a lifetime)
- non-debatable work (teenagers don't really have to worry about this)
- taking girlfriend to the hospital

Things like "ohh it's slushy outside" and "work called on a night that I don't have to work" aren't really good reasons, they are choices made based on priorities. Young people don't have such major responsibilities that they absolutely must go in to work.

edit: just noted the parents thing. yeah, that's beyond your control. sorry about the speculation, i guess making gaming a priority is something important to me because i feel that my group is counting on me to be there. we all made a pact that we would make it a priority.

pretty stiff parents as well. let the kids live a little. sheesh.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 07:20 PM
I have played in groups where players are extremely serious about not missing games, and played in others where attendance was very part time/intermittent.

It's kind of a mix with my group. Most will show up reliably each week (four actually showed up this week, it's just one of them happened to have a dead character at the time). The only two that I've pretty much come to expect absence from either have a job or younger siblings they frequently need to babysit.


This has been my experience with gamers as well. It's fairly simple. If you care about gaming, you block out the evening. You mark it on an availability sheet at work. You make it clear to significant others and family that evening you are busy. When you are asked if you are free, you say no. Etc.

Players that don't care about the game will go in to work if called in that night. They will often just stay home because their girlfriend wants them to. They will come up with excuses like "the weather is really bad" (unless there's some kind of blizzard, hurricane, or tornado, you can get where you want to go, it's called safe driving).

I have missed sessions for these types of reasons:
- family wedding (once in a lifetime)
- non-debatable work (teenagers don't really have to worry about this)
- taking girlfriend to the hospital

Things like "ohh it's slushy outside" and "work called on a night that I don't have to work" aren't really good reasons, they are choices made based on priorities. Young people don't have such major responsibilities that they absolutely must go in to work.

Well, you and Thurbane seem almost psychotically obsessed with gaming. I think you're more likely the exception than the rule. TBH, I'd probably skip the occasional session if I wasn't the DM. It's a huge drain on my creative energies, and as a writer that's a major inconvienience.


edit: just noted the parents thing. yeah, that's beyond your control. sorry about the speculation, i guess making gaming a priority is something important to me because i feel that my group is counting on me to be there. we all made a pact that we would make it a priority.

pretty stiff parents as well. let the kids live a little. sheesh.

Aye. If it weren't for that I would probably have 6/7 of the group show up on any given week.

Kylarra
2010-11-15, 07:23 PM
I'm pretty sure Psycho has asked them straight up, possibly at the behest of us swarming on him, and the reply was something along the lines of the story is great, but the combat is generally a bit too tough for them.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 07:24 PM
I'm pretty sure Psycho has asked them straight up, possibly at the behest of us swarming on him, and the reply was something along the lines of the story is great, but the combat is generally a bit too tough for them.

Yeah, that's what I said on page 2.

Anyway, sorry about the de-rail. I have Ability Focus: Thread-derailment.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-15, 07:24 PM
He could just ask them if they're having a good time though. I mean it sure beats theoretical optimization on why the players might be missing sessions regularly.

"You mean you took 'Fudge Rolls' for flavor? Here's a DM build that really gets the PPS*. First, take the Extend Session feat as many times as you can, and max out your Advertise (D&D) skill..."

*Players per Session

But yeah, there's not much left to say that's not "Stop killing the PCs, dude."

Because that is the solution to this problem.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 07:25 PM
Yeah, that's what I said on page 2.

Anyway, sorry about the de-rail. I have Ability Focus: Thread-derailment.

The threads rails were only vaguely pointed out to being with, so it's not too bad. :smalltongue:


But yeah, there's not much left to say that's not "Stop killing the PCs, dude."

Because that is the solution to this problem.

I have no problem with killing my PCs. I just don't like killing ALL of my PCs.

I think my biggest flaw as a DM is something I pointed out in a previous thread: generally DMs figure out what their PCs can handle by starting easy and slowly tightening the vice. I figure out what they're capable of by starting tight and slowly releasing pressure.

Susano-wo
2010-11-15, 07:28 PM
This has been my experience with gamers as well. It's fairly simple. If you care about gaming, you block out the evening. You mark it on an availability sheet at work. You make it clear to significant others and family that evening you are busy. When you are asked if you are free, you say no. Etc.

Players that don't care about the game will go in to work if called in that night. They will often just stay home because their girlfriend wants them to. They will come up with excuses like "the weather is really bad" (unless there's some kind of blizzard, hurricane, or tornado, you can get where you want to go, it's called safe driving).

I have missed sessions for these types of reasons:
- family wedding (once in a lifetime)
- non-debatable work (teenagers don't really have to worry about this)
- taking girlfriend to the hospital

Things like "ohh it's slushy outside" and "work called on a night that I don't have to work" aren't really good reasons, they are choices made based on priorities. Young people don't have such major responsibilities that they absolutely must go in to work.

edit: just noted the parents thing. yeah, that's beyond your control. sorry about the speculation, i guess making gaming a priority is something important to me because i feel that my group is counting on me to be there. we all made a pact that we would make it a priority.

pretty stiff parents as well. let the kids live a little. sheesh.


And this is what I'm talking about. You can't know based on attendance if they care about it or not. Maybe most gamers are fanatical about it, but not all. There are a Myriad reasons that this could be the case. Maybe they need to be available for their job, maybe they have family that can only schedule things on the weekend, maybe they don't feel like being around people when stressed, or maybe they have health issues.

There of lots of reasons that someone mightnot show up that don't indicate unhappiness with a GM/lack of interest. Sometimes these things coincide with multiple players:smallsigh:

(by the way, I used never, because that was the impression I had. If you don't mean never, jsut say"I don't mean never." saying "that's a falacy!" doesn't really do anything, aside from perhaps point out that someone is using faulty logic.)

Kylarra
2010-11-15, 07:28 PM
I have no problem with killing my PCs. I just don't like killing ALL of my PCs.To be honest, I think you should stop trying to aim for your 80% survival rate and just aim for "100% survivable but battered". With the way sessions have been going, that'll probably hit your 80% rate dead on.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 07:30 PM
(by the way, I used never, because that was the impression I had. If you don't mean never, jsut say"I don't mean never." saying "that's a falacy!" doesn't really do anything, aside from perhaps point out that someone is using faulty logic.)

I really ought to be able to say something without having to cover every possible interpretation. I shouldn't have to say "I don't mean never," because it should not be injected by the reader.

It's also not my prerogative to conform to how you want me to say something.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 07:31 PM
To be honest, I think you should stop trying to aim for your 80% survival rate and just aim for "100% survivable but battered". With the way sessions have been going, that'll probably hit your 80% rate dead on.

I think what I meant by "80% Suvival" was "100% Survivable-But-Battered, Unless You're Stupid And/Or Unlucky."

Thurbane
2010-11-15, 07:31 PM
Well, you and Thurbane seem almost psychotically obsessed with gaming.
Guilty as charged. :smallbiggrin:

I think you're more likely the exception than the rule.
Quite possibly, although in my regular group, most have similar (if not quite as fanatical) zeal. I have, however, gamed with much more casual groups...

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 07:34 PM
Guilty as charged. :smallbiggrin:

Same, although remove the "seem almost" and replace it "are." :smallbiggrin:

Marnath
2010-11-15, 07:38 PM
To be honest, I think you should stop trying to aim for your 80% survival rate and just aim for "100% survivable but battered". With the way sessions have been going, that'll probably hit your 80% rate dead on.

I have to agree. Two of the three encounters this group has been through that I've advised on, have been tpk's. The third would have been, if I and a few others hadn't persuaded you to alter the effigy bear. I get that you're trying for 80% survival, but you really need to follow our advice if you seriously want to bring it up from ~20% survival, which is what you seem to be averaging.

You need to tone back your encounters if you want the PC's to live! I'm sorry, but it's really that simple. Period.

Kylarra
2010-11-15, 07:40 PM
I think what I meant by "80% Suvival" was "100% Survivable-But-Battered, Unless You're Stupid And/Or Unlucky."An 80% projected survival rate does not imply 100% survivable in my book, nor probably anyone that I know's book. If that's what you meant to imply, then I maintain the same advice but substitute the phrasing "turn it back a few notches". At this point they're well aware that pretty much anything will kill them given the chance and throwing something el+3 against them consistently will just get them used to rerolls, not playing.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 07:48 PM
A big problem here is that I think you're going off some things that have been written and aren't entirely accurate. The CR system breaks down on both ends of the spectrum, but in different ways. I'll cover the low levels since that's where this game is.

These characters are level 2-3. They are a half step from death at all times, even when at full HP. Low level characters (1-3) can handle CR +1 and CR +2, but will have a great deal of difficulty (especially when they are as low op as your group). CR +3 and CR +4 will be basically impossible for your particular group, especially when only half of them are present. While the CR system is an okay guideline, simply looking in the DMG and noting that a CR +3 encounter is doable is a mistake. It's simply not true for low op low level parties, as they lack the defenses and offenses to deal with the threat. At low level, even in a fairly high op party, I shoot for at the very most CR +2 (but that's with 4 people, more people makes the game different).

If I were you, I'd shoot for CR +2 (which is fairly abstract, I know), but only if they are all present. If less players are present, you're going to have to tone it back, you'll need a contingency plan. If only three players are present, an CR +1 is going to be a brutal fight for them (really only because of their low op), and will likely kill at least one of them. An even CR fight should result in a tough battle with them all surviving.

With the erratic nature of the party (players not showing up) you are going to have to be willing to tone back encounters, possibly significantly, on the fly. The only reason they might possibly be able to handle a CR +2 with their op levels is due to superior action economy in their favor.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 07:48 PM
You need to tone back your encounters if you want the PC's to live! I'm sorry, but it's really that simple. Period.

I am toning it back. Slowly.


A big problem here is that I think you're going off some things that have been written and aren't entirely accurate. The CR system breaks down on both ends of the spectrum, but in different ways. I'll cover the low levels since that's where this game is.

These characters are level 2-3. They are a half step from death at all times, even when at full HP. Low level characters (1-3) can handle CR +1 and CR +2, but will have a great deal of difficulty (especially when they are as low op as your group). CR +3 and CR +4 will be basically impossible for your particular group, especially when only half of them are present.

If I were you, I'd shoot for CR +2 (which is fairly abstract, I know), but only if they are all present. If less players are present, you're going to have to tone it back, you'll need a contingency plan. If only three players are present, an CR +1 is going to be a brutal fight for them (really only because of their low op), and will likely kill at least one of them. An even CR fight should result in a tough battle with them all surviving.

With the erratic nature of the party (players not showing up) you are going to have to be willing to tone back encounters, possibly significantly, on the fly. The only reason they might possibly be able to handle a CR +2 with their op levels is due to superior action economy in their favor.

Good advise. I've already altered my encounter tables to account for it.

In fact, I think I'll post that, just so you can see some of the behind-the-scenes mechanics.

Roster (Full Party)
01-25 - 1d3 +2 Small Earth Elementals
26-50 - 1d2 +1 Medium Earth Elementals
51-75 - 1 Large Earth Elemental
76-00 - 1d3 +2 Darkmantles

Roster (Half Party)
01-33 - 1d2 +1 Small Earth Elementals
34-67 - 1 Medium Earth Elemental
68-00 - 1d2 +1 Darkmantles

Marnath
2010-11-15, 07:53 PM
I am toning it back. Slowly.


Why are you adjusting it slowly? What possible reason could you have for not making the full necessary changes right away? :smallconfused:

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 07:57 PM
Why are you adjusting it slowly? What possible reason could you have for not making the full necessary changes right away? :smallconfused:

Trying to determine the sweet spot between the default "appropriate" encounter and flat-out lethal encounters. CR being wonky as it is, and low-level combat being as rocket-taggy as it is, this is not something easy to determine.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-15, 07:58 PM
I am toning it back. Slowly.

I think you need to tone it down a little faster. You've progressed from total TPK to a TPK of everyone who turned up.

Generally things go easy and progress harder. This is how the world works. You don't go for a PhD before you've finished kindergarten. You don't bench press an elephant without doing the titchy weights first.

Have you tried pitting them against something of equal CR to their level, without all the immunities, DR, or special features? I mean, on a regular basis so you can judge how well they play against what their levels are "supposed" to be facing. That way you know how much they can handle before they get all dead.

No use toning it back based on player input if the players don't survive enough to develop tactics.

Edit: Besides, if they can't handle a CR appropriate encounter, they kind of need the help.

Edit Edit: And if you don't know the control difficulty, you have no way of knowing whether CR+ X is going a little too far, or a LOT too far.

Kylarra
2010-11-15, 07:58 PM
I am toning it back. Slowly.



Good advise. I've already altered my encounter tables to account for it.

In fact, I think I'll post that, just so you can see some of the behind-the-scenes mechanics.

Roster (Full Party)
01-25 - 1d3 +2 Small Earth Elementals
26-50 - 1d2 +1 Medium Earth Elementals
51-75 - 1 Large Earth Elemental
76-00 - 1d3 +2 Darkmantles

Roster (Half Party)
01-33 - 1d2 +1 Small Earth Elementals
34-67 - 1 Medium Earth Elemental
68-00 - 1d2 +1 DarkmantlesThat large earth elemental is going to eat them alive. Reach, DR 5 and 68 HP with 2 attacks for 2D8+8 is yeah... 2-3 Medium earth elementals is either EL 5-6 and yeah... so that's a 50% chance of a good chance at TPK right there.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 08:00 PM
That large earth elemental would probably be a party wipe. It will kill one character per turn, and IIRC the PC's don't have many options for dealing damage to it (due to its damage reduction). While the CR rules I said are a decent guideline, you still have to look at the monster's entry and gauge its strength. The two things the large elemental has that make me raise an eyebrow are the DR and 2 slams for 2d8+7 at +12 to hit, which basically means 1 unconscious or dead PC per round.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 08:01 PM
That large earth elemental is going to eat them alive. Reach, DR 5 and 68 HP with 2 attacks for 2D8+8 is yeah...

I was concerned about that after this week's events, yeah. Evidently low-level CR isn't as forgiving as I thought it was when I wrote the list.

Marnath
2010-11-15, 08:03 PM
Trying to determine the sweet spot between the default "appropriate" encounter and flat-out lethal encounters. CR being wonky as it is, and low-level combat being as rocket-taggy as it is, this is not something easy to determine.

But we've already told you where "appropriate" is. About half of what you use, is a good starting point.

Kylarra
2010-11-15, 08:03 PM
I was concerned about that after this week's events, yeah. Evidently low-level CR isn't as forgiving as I thought it was when I wrote the list. I would aim for an EL of 3 right now, possibly 4 when they're all level 3. Your guys aren't very optimized, nor are they terribly inventive unless they've progressed significantly since the first encounter you've told us about.

Marnath
2010-11-15, 08:06 PM
Also, for the love of god, stop sending creatures with DR at them. They have no good way of dealing with that, and it makes monsters much tougher at that level.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 08:07 PM
I would aim for an EL of 3 right now, possibly 4 when they're all level 3. Your guys aren't very optimized, nor are they terribly inventive unless they've progressed significantly since the first encounter you've told us about.

They'll be level 3 by the time they get out of this cave... if they get out of this cave. If not, fortunately the backstory I've developed for the dead players' next round of characters puts them in the same general area.

Revamped list:

Roster (Full Party)
01-33 - 1d2 +2 Small Earth Elementals
34-67 - 1d2 Medium Earth Elementals
68-00 - 1d2 +2 Darkmantles

Roster (Half Party)
01-33 - 1d2 Small Earth Elementals
34-67 - 1 Medium Earth Elemental
68-00 - 1d2 Darkmantles

Thurbane
2010-11-15, 08:07 PM
I have no problem with killing my PCs. I just don't like killing ALL of my PCs.
The other thing to consider, though, is do the players have a problem with it? If the players are OK with losing one or two characters a session, then no harm, no foul.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 08:11 PM
The other thing to consider, though, is do the players have a problem with it? If the players are OK with losing one or two characters a session, then no harm, no foul.

I think in the back of their head they half look forward to it, since both times they've died so far their new characters were one level higher. (Of course, both times they were only a few XP from leveling anyway, but hey.)

Khatoblepas
2010-11-15, 08:14 PM
01-33 - 1d2 +2 Small Earth Elementals
34-67 - 1d2 Medium Earth Elementals
68-00 - 1d2 +2 Darkmantles

Roster (Half Party)
01-33 - 1d2 Small Earth Elementals
34-67 - 1 Medium Earth Elemental
68-00 - 1d2 Darkmantles


Replace the earth elementals with something less lethal. At their level of optimization, they're hardly going to be getting above an average of 5 damage, and with no lucky crits, they're gonna get mauled by them.

Perhaps ONE (I stress ONE), of these ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#gelatinousCube) as a boss. Goblins, kobolds. Anything without DR and immunity to everything.

Man, this is making me long for the old days, when I didn't know how to run rings around these monsters.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 08:14 PM
Replace the earth elementals with something less lethal. At their level of optimization, they're hardly going to be getting above an average of 5 damage, and with no lucky crits, they're gonna get mauled by them.

Only Large or bigger Earth Elementals have DR.

As for the other suggestions, neither Goblins nor Kobolds exist in this setting.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-15, 08:22 PM
Only Large or bigger Earth Elementals have DR.

As for the other suggestions, neither Goblins nor Kobolds exist in this setting.

Still (he said, trying to cover for his momentary lapse in memory. He had the d20srd up, for heaven's sake.), I'd be wary of using them against the party. They got their asses handed to them by them once before. I don't think they're ready. Immunity to crits and flanking means that the party can't use regular tactics against them, and the lack of spellcasters able to control the battlefield means they're gonna be on the brunt of their attack with no way to protect the squishier party members. Recipe for disaster.

To be honest, I'd be wary of sending any kind of threat at this party. Without proper tutelage in the ways of battle, they're sitting ducks. The easy encounters might, you know, teach them something. Especially if you coax them into using proper tactics.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 08:24 PM
To be honest, I'd be wary of sending any kind of threat at this party. Without proper tutelage in the ways of battle, they're sitting ducks. The easy encounters might, you know, teach them something. Especially if you coax them into using proper tactics.

Perhaps I should just sit them down in front of a PHB with the combat chapter open, and tell them they can't leave 'til they've read the whole thing?

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 08:26 PM
Question: did you implement the changes to your spellcasting system that i designed? (particularly the spells that reduce the planar rift chance)

It might be a good idea to advise one (or more, 2 would be optimal) players to be wizards or sorcerers. I would advise one to look toward more battlefield control, and the other to be a blasty type for damaging creatures the mundanes are having difficulty with. Blasters aren't optimal, but in this party it might help to have somebody that can help the fighter types with damage.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 08:33 PM
Question: did you implement the changes to your spellcasting system that i designed? (particularly the spells that reduce the planar rift chance)

Truth be told, not a single arcane spell as left the fingertips of my players since you posted that. And since 1st Level divine spells don't need to worry about it, I hadn't given it much thought.

[Edit]: Just dug it up and added it to my Alternate Arcana Rules. Handy, thanks.


It might be a good idea to advise one (or more, 2 would be optimal) players to be wizards or sorcerers. I would advise one to look toward more battlefield control, and the other to be a blasty type for damaging creatures the mundanes are having difficulty with. Blasters aren't optimal, but in this party it might help to have somebody that can help the fighter types with damage.

One of the players will be playing a Warforged Warmage 3 (houseruled to have their spell progression to be one level ahead of RAW, because not getting 2nd level spells 'til Level 4 is stupid), but I don't think any of them are terribly interested in playing a straight-up Wizard. Though next time the Hexblade actually makes it to a session I intend to encourage her to change it to a Sorcerer/Rogue so as to suck less while keeping with the character concept. (She hasn't made it to a session since I did the whole party overhaul where I made the Samurai into Fighters.)

Khatoblepas
2010-11-15, 08:42 PM
Perhaps I should just sit them down in front of a PHB with the combat chapter open, and tell them they can't leave 'til they've read the whole thing?

Uh, no. You teach by example and with like, little tutorial battles. That's how I taught my group, and they were a bunch of 14-15 year olds at the time. (This was many years ago).

You point out the benefits of flanking, give them little hints ("Hey, why don't you get some higher ground? You'll get a +2 bonus. There is some higher ground [that I just fluffed in on the map here]"). Give them things that are weak against their class abilities. Walk them through it yourself. And being in the cave is a perfect way to do it. It's isolated, and it can be much easier to set up tutorials in a linear fashion. Make up stupid little monsters like a monster that is really weak if tripped up, and monsters that are hanging around beside pools of nasty substance, so that they can be bull rushed in. It sounds cheesy, yes, but players dig this kind of thing. "Oh wow, I'm useful!" they'll cry! (Hmm, maybe I should write a scenario like this. It could be a useful intro to a campaign one day.)

Just reading the PHB doesn't make someone good at tactics. Having someone teach them is a good way. Reward them for good tactics, not good luck. And soon, they'll come out of those caves great warriors, ready to take on anything that's CR appropriate and a little above, instead of disorganised whelps that die in every battle. Give them hope that they can beat things by teaching them the right way. It's your responsibility as a DM, and it's fun! Trust me. And then you can challenge them properly, instead of having TPKs all the time.

Drakevarg
2010-11-15, 08:49 PM
Since that'll be a lengthy process and I only have half a party still with a pulse, perhaps I should have the new characters convienently be in the same cave, since they were headed in that direction anyway.

Earthwalker
2010-11-16, 07:52 AM
More advice if you care for it.

Think less about CR rating and more about how your players are going to view a situation and what they can do about it.

As a simple example think of the elemental fight.

The wall closes behind the group and rock hands grab at the person at the front of the group. From this you asume the players will attack these elementals. (tho this fight is suppose to teach the players to run from some fights) One player at the front attacked back at the hands, the person at the back just stood there. The missing bit for information for the player is that he too faces an elemental, as far as I can tell he just thought the tunnel disappeared.

The reaction of not knowing what to do seems perfectly fine in this situation.

For every encounter you plan think about how the players can and how they will react. Try to ignore what you know and see it from thier sideof the screen. If you were a PC what would you do, this is what my questions earlier were tryint to make you think about.

If the tunnel closes in behind you, what do you think. What can you do ?

Now your answer is attack the elemental, but you don't know it is even an elemental.

Next



What are you teaching the group ?

From what I can tell you are teaching them, no matter what they do, what they say or any choices they make they can't effect anything. They will die when they fight and its ok as you will reward them for it.

Camp at the top of the cliff, you get killed by wolfs that are too powerful for you to fight and that can run faster then you.

Camp at the bottom of the cliff and risk dieing on the way down, followed by being killed by bugs.

Go in the cave to camp and the monsters will kill you.

Please choose how you want to die now...

Followed by, well you died. Make a new character, you gained a level thats your reward so you keep dieing as I reward that so it must be what I want you to do. You die and get your reward.



From entering the cave, let the players know that one torch is a problem and that it might not last long. After exploring a bit tell them they seen a number of crush giant bugs, the same as outside, it appears the walls of the tunnel have just mashed together and crushed the bugs.

As they inspect give someone a reflex save, as the rocks smash together. If they make it take x damage if not take full elemental attack. Then have the crushing rocks move closer trying to get them. If they say they run have the rocks chase them as there flame flickers down.

If they stay have them see the walls moving, something in side if trying to trap them. Then see if they run. If not then trap them, then the fight goes on.

If they run have them out distance the rock elementals as they should. The elements can either follow or wait.

Least then the players have an idea what they are up against and can go back with a plan or just wait and hide.

One important note, is they run they get the xp. Reward them for behavior you want. You don't want a TPK but after one then they get a reward ?

Lapak
2010-11-16, 10:57 AM
I am toning it back. Slowly.If I may offer some advice on this - you appear to be toning the danger of the creatures back a bit over time, but the encounters have been increasingly inescapable. That's much easier to tone back without affecting the lethality level of your encounters, and will have a much, much greater impact on PC survival.

IIRC, it's gone from "if they guessed they should flee the building, they could genuinely have escaped" (zombies in the inn) to "wilderness encounter with creatures faster than them, but they maybe could have escaped if they ran away" (effigy wolves / bear) to "attacked from the walls, in the middle of the party, in a tunnel too tight to squeeze by each other" (this fight.)

Even if they decided to flee this time, there was literally nowhere for some of them to go once the encounter started, and no way to see the encounter coming. I would concentrate on leaving your players a way out, or better yet several potential ways that offer a varying chance of success.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-16, 11:19 AM
I second that throwing inexperienced players against overpowered encounters is the antithesis of horror, and a side effect is that they don't learn.

Inexperienced players won't necessarily get frightened because a lot of them haven't a clue what the power of monsters happens to be. A more experienced group will feel that twinge of fear when a large earth elemental attacks their level 3 party because they know what it is capable of. I have a feeling this group doesn't "feel the fear" because they are so accustomed to making new characters that it's just become expected.

I might be wrong, but I just don't see how a player could get attached enough to a character to actually feel fear, here.

As the others said, it's a better idea to start easy and get harder as time progresses. Give the players some time to get accustomed to tactics and rules, and then bring the nasty. I understand that the campaign is supposed to be about horror, but I really am not convinced that the players are going to experience the campaign the way you want them to by you starting at "impossible" mode and then toning it back as you go along.

Anterean
2010-11-17, 02:47 AM
They'll be level 3 by the time they get out of this cave... if they get out of this cave. If not, fortunately the backstory I've developed for the dead players' next round of characters puts them in the same general area.


Assuming I understand how to use the calculator at : http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm



Revamped list:

Roster (Full Party)
01-33 - 1d2 +2 Small Earth Elementals
34-67 - 1d2 Medium Earth Elementals
68-00 - 1d2 +2 Darkmantles


This will be an encounter level 6 against a party level of 2.9 (and thus "very difficult"), and this is assuming you roll on 1 on all those d2s



Roster (Half Party)
01-33 - 1d2 Small Earth Elementals
34-67 - 1 Medium Earth Elemental
68-00 - 1d2 Darkmantles

And like wise assuming you roll only 1s this will be an encounter level 5 against an effective party level 1.3 (and again, thus "very difficult).

now it is estimated that 15% of the encounters in an adventure should hit this difficulty, so if these are "average" encounters...

elpollo
2010-11-17, 06:23 AM
Assuming I understand how to use the calculator at : http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm

It appears that you do.



This will be an encounter level 6 against a party level of 2.9 (and thus "very difficult"), and this is assuming you roll on 1 on all those d2s

I don't think you understand the encounter table, though. The table randomly generates the kind of enemy the party are fighting, then determines how many of them there are. It's not all of them on the table - you roll the d100 to see what they're fighting, then if you get a 32 the party fight 1d2+2 small earth elementals.

I was also under the impression that there were 6 level 2s in the full party, making their Party Level 3.2 - you seem to have used 5 level 2s and a level 1.



And like wise assuming you roll only 1s this will be an encounter level 5 against an effective party level 1.3 (and again, thus "very difficult).

See above.


edit - also, some of the posts on page 3 make me cry a little bit. It's only a game. Real life gets in the way.