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Tael
2010-11-14, 11:05 AM
Is it just me, or are Wyverns (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wyvern.htm) really freaking amazing for CR 6?

They have:

A really nice full attack routine
Poison with a decent DC for 2d6 Con damage
Imp. Grab and a really nice grapple check
Decent defenses and immunities
Good saves for being a dragon
Flight Speed
Good perceptions skills + Darkvision and Scent
Did I mention the SIX attacks at at least +8, most doing really good damage?


These things seem ridiculous. The Con damage is especially potent, and could possibly kill some unlucky low-con PC's outright.

What are the playground's experiences with Wyverns? Are they too good?

Otodetu
2010-11-14, 11:10 AM
Not as bad as bone-claws from MM-III.

Large, undead, 20ft. surprise reach, dr and 105hp, that is at cr 5.

Saph
2010-11-14, 11:12 AM
They're one of the more dangerous CR 6es, but their defences aren't great. I've run Wyverns against parties several times, and normally I find that they land one or two flybys and one or two full attacks, but by then the concentrated fire from the party drops them.

Often there'll be a dead PC on the ground as well, though. 2d6 Con damage is nasty. I've even seen one kill a PC from secondary damage.

Otodetu
2010-11-14, 11:24 AM
At level 5-6 you should have level 3 spells available, like slow and invisibility sphere, and that can turn the tide of battle in round 1 as long as the creature do not win initiative and singles out the caster.

awa
2010-11-14, 11:45 AM
its on the strong end for cr 6 but just looking at the srd the lamia and tendriculos are also quite dangerous if in different ways. the poison is deadly but its a pretty straight forward attacker. it has no reach so melee can ready actions to hit and it has poor maneuverability so i don't think it can use its flyby every round giving casters plenty of time to cook it.

RebelRogue
2010-11-14, 11:51 AM
It has indeed been my experience, that wyverns can be slightly hard for their CR.

Ernir
2010-11-14, 01:14 PM
I've never fought Wyverns that didn't get blinded by Glitterdust before managing to kill anyone. YMMV.

RebelRogue
2010-11-14, 01:28 PM
I've played a lot of games with kids, so that may account for it to some degree.

Tael
2010-11-14, 03:02 PM
I've never fought Wyverns that didn't get blinded by Glitterdust before managing to kill anyone. YMMV.

... You can say this about any enemy that relies on sight without extraordinarily good will saves. And Wyverns have good will saves. So you'd only really have a 55/50% chance to blind one, and then they still have scent, so they're not completely disabled. I'm really not seeing your reasoning.

Saph
2010-11-14, 03:10 PM
Wyverns have scent and a good Listen score, so they aren't completely dependent on sight, either. With a Giltterdust, you're talking about a 50% chance of blinding it, then a 50% miss chance on its attacks if you do. It's an okay tactic, but not the best.

The Wyvern's real weakness is damage, not blinding. Stock Wyverns have 59 HP and not a particularly good AC: if the party all focus-fire it, it'll go down pretty fast. This is why I usually find the battle's over quickly, with one or two PCs poisoned but the wyvern dead.

Synapse
2010-11-14, 03:10 PM
... You can say this about any enemy that relies on sight without extraordinarily good will saves. And Wyverns have good will saves. So you'd only really have a 55/50% chance to blind one, and then they still have scent, so they're not completely disabled. I'm really not seeing your reasoning.

Blind wyverns still have to go through a 50% miss chance even with scent.

A party without ranged attackers and a caster is kinda hosed fighting wyverns. Any single optimized ranged attacker or a caster with slow and glitterdust will disable the wyvern quickly.


But most of that works against any creature anyway so I'm not sure that even counts to justify their power for their CR.

Runestar
2010-11-14, 04:40 PM
Not as bad as bone-claws from MM-III.

Large, undead, 20ft. surprise reach, dr and 105hp, that is at cr 5.

They have crappy to-hit and damage values, thus putting them on par with a troll (less hp, but better damage potential).

Anyways, the wyvern can attack with its talons only when flying, so normally, it has 4 attacks.

faceroll
2010-11-14, 05:14 PM
Is it why-vern as in why or whe-vern as in when?

Synapse
2010-11-14, 06:10 PM
Is it why-vern as in why or whe-vern as in when?

The wik thing (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wyvern) says "why"

Thrawn183
2010-11-14, 09:43 PM
Well, let's think about a level 6 fighter wielding a guisarme with the benefit of a haste spell from his friendly neighborhood wizard. Say 19 strength (16+2 item +1 level) and a +1 weapon. He has the weapon focus and specialization line as he isn't optimized. He makes three attacks a round at +14/+14/+9 vs AC 18 for 2d4+11 a hit. That averages to 37 damage dealt a round. So he kills the Wyvern in two full round attacks.

Now, if this was a fighter that was built for say....tripping, things would be a lot easier. The wyvern doesn't have reach and isn't a quadraped. Let's not even add power attack into the equation.

People seriously underestimate the damage output of your typical melee'r.