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HMS Invincible
2010-11-14, 03:06 PM
I need to know if my DM is correct, or if I'm correct. I have abrupt jaunt with cloudy conjuration.

DM is saying abrupt jaunt does nothing versus range attacks except if I teleport behind a wall. Nothing I say will change his mind, so this question is to satisfy my curiosity.

How do I apply cloudy conjuration with abrupt jaunt? I tried casting a cantrip to make a cloud, but the DM shot me with an arrow anyway. At best, he gave me 20% miss chance. I'm going to try to give an good explanation of how it works, outside of combat so there are no biases or emotions. If not, whatever, then I just blew my lvl 5 bonus feat for a very minor benefit.

Lev
2010-11-14, 03:15 PM
Your DM is always correct.

Cloudy Conjuration summons a cloud, like Fog Cloud or whatever.

The benefit is that while in the cloud they are always sickened, no save, and you can generate a 10' radius cloud every time you conjure for free, and considering a 5' radius spell covers 9 squares, this is a pretty nice debuff.

Sickened is a debuff that INSTANTLY effects all saves and other things with a -2, this means any conjuration spell with a save has an extra +2 chance of succeeding.

Imagine what this does to a cloudkill, ect.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-14, 03:17 PM
As far as the 20% miss chance, that depends on how you position the cloud. Cloudy Conjuration has the effect of a 5-ft. radius fog cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm) spell, plus the sickening effect described by the feat. So basically, if there is only 5 feet of fog between you and the attacker, you have a 20% miss chance, but if you get the whole 10 feet in between you (5-ft. radius equals 10-ft. diameter) you will have total concealment and the miss chance rises to 50%. And yes, it IS a very minor benefit the way you are using it. Try hitting enemies with the sickening effect.

As for abrupt jaunt, ask your DM how the arrow is changing direction mid-flight to still hit you.


EDIT:

The benefit is that while in the cloud they are always sickened, no save, and you can generate a 10' radius cloud every time you conjure for free, and considering a 5' radius spell covers 9 squares, this is a pretty nice debuff.

Actually, a 5' radius spell covers 4 squares, because origin points are always measured from a grid intersection in D&D 3.5.

Tael
2010-11-14, 03:19 PM
I need to know if my DM is correct, or if I'm correct. I have abrupt jaunt with cloudy conjuration.

DM is saying abrupt jaunt does nothing versus range attacks except if I teleport behind a wall. Nothing I say will change his mind, so this question is to satisfy my curiosity.

How do I apply cloudy conjuration with abrupt jaunt? I tried casting a cantrip to make a cloud, but the DM shot me with an arrow anyway. At best, he gave me 20% miss chance. I'm going to try to give an good explanation of how it works, outside of combat so there are no biases or emotions. If not, whatever, then I just blew my lvl 5 bonus feat for a very minor benefit.
Why does he say that abrupt jaunt cannot teleport behind a wall? And what does abrupt jaunt have to do with Cloudy Conjuration? I'm kind of confused here.

Claudius Maximus
2010-11-14, 03:22 PM
I thought a 5-foot radius was 8 squares?

Anyway, there's an argument that Abrupt Jaunt can't protect you from ranged attacks because it triggers before they announce their target. Basically, you see them ready an arrow, you jaunt, and they just aim at your new position. This is actually true for some spells like Charm Person, but it has been argued forever whether it applies to things like Orb of X and arrows. His DM can make a decent RAW case for his ruling to be right.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-14, 03:26 PM
I thought a 5-foot radius was 8 squares?

How could it be 8 squares? It has to be either 9 or 4 depending on whether you place the origin in a square and affect all squares within 5 feet, or put it on a grid intersection like I said above. The only way it could be 8 is if the center of the 9 squares wasn't included for some reason, but there's usually no reason to assume that.

As for RAW, it says areas of effect always originate from a grid intersection.

tyckspoon
2010-11-14, 03:27 PM
You create a 5-foot radius cloud. That means the cloud actually covers a 2x2 square, because D&D effects are centered on grid intersections, not the squares themselves (see PHB pg 175, in reference to how to plot out spell areas.) The cloud acts as part of a Fog Cloud, which breaks line of sight (ie, grants total concealment) when you attempt to look through more than 5 foot worth. So if you put your Cloudy Conjuration effect directly between you and a ranged attacker, you'll get 7-10 feet worth of fog- 2 squares for game simplicity- and the attacker should not be able to target you. Especially if you then make a 5-foot shift or take a move so you're not in the same spot anymore; the best an archer can do in that situation is take a blind shot and hope you're still in pretty much the same position (that is, guess a square, fire at it, and then take a 50% miss chance even if he guessed correctly.)

How that interacts with Abrupt Jaunt.. depends on if you can convince your DM that Abrupt Jaunt counts as casting a Conjuration spell, really. I'd probably say no, by RAW, particularly because the PHB2 errata redefines it as a Supernatural ability, which removes the "it's a spell-like ability available only to a Conjurer that teleports, it's as close to being a Conjuration spell as anything can be" argument (otherwise I would say RAI would make it count, because it's as close to casting a conjuration spell as you can get without actually having a spellbook listing for it.)

But the idea of casting a cantrip to create your own cover does work, especially if you can get a cheap way to Quicken it so it doesn't blow your action- just remind your DM that '5-foot radius' translates to '2x2 square' on the map grid, so you do have enough cover between you and your attacker to get total concealment.

Lev
2010-11-14, 03:30 PM
Actually, a 5' radius spell covers 4 squares, because origin points are always measured from a grid intersection in D&D 3.5.
Disagreed, bursts and threatening origins are measured from squares.

NelKor
2010-11-14, 03:31 PM
Well, if i remember correctly Abrupt jaunt specifically says that you can use it in response to an attack thus i fail to see why range would function any different as for Cloudy conjuration, it's a cloud that you place adjacent to you anytime you use a conjuration spell, so Abrupt wouldn't trigger it. Also to be noted the clouds block line of sight if they are between you and an enemy.

Toliudar
2010-11-14, 03:39 PM
How could it be 8 squares? It has to be either 9 or 4 depending on whether you place the origin in a square and affect all squares within 5 feet, or put it on a grid intersection like I said above.

I believe that Claudius is factoring in the third dimension. If a 5' radius is measured from a point 5' off the ground, it does indeed cover 8 squares. 2x2x2.

Claudius Maximus
2010-11-14, 03:59 PM
Disagreed, bursts and threatening origins are measured from squares.

Threatening origins are, but not bursts:


The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection

Followed by nothing in the burst description that contradicts it leads me believe that it applies. Also if you have a DMG I think there are burst templates in the back that are based on intersections.

HMS Invincible
2010-11-14, 04:28 PM
Hmmm, informative, but I don't think the argument is good enough to get past the DM. He plays a gritty game, so everyone gets his share of falling asleep on the battlefield involuntarily.
His argument of: wizards are squishy, therefore you can't get too many things that protect you. Stop arguing. He also decided that arrows/rays travel instantaneously. At this point, I'm lucky that they actually expend their standard action attacking me instead of watching me abrupt jaunt, and then attacking me/someone else anyway.

Btw, did the old version of abrupt jaunt trigger cloudy conjuration? It says it triggers off conjuration and teleporting, which is what abrupt jaunt is.

If I'm reading this right, I should place the cloud on the target if the spell requires a save. If I want to get the 50% miss chance and total concealment, I should place it in between me and the attacker. Why would I ever place the cloud on ME? Am I immune to my own cloud?

Our games don't use gridmaps, at best, we have a chalkboard that we occasionally draw rough sketches on.

Urpriest
2010-11-14, 04:34 PM
Btw, did the old version of abrupt jaunt trigger cloudy conjuration? It says it triggers off conjuration and teleporting, which is what abrupt jaunt is.


What old version are you talking about?

HMS Invincible
2010-11-14, 04:41 PM
What old version are you talking about?




How that interacts with Abrupt Jaunt.. depends on if you can convince your DM that Abrupt Jaunt counts as casting a Conjuration spell, really. I'd probably say no, by RAW, particularly because the PHB2 errata redefines it as a Supernatural ability, which removes the "it's a spell-like ability available only to a Conjurer that teleports, it's as close to being a Conjuration spell as anything can be" argument (otherwise I would say RAI would make it count, because it's as close to casting a conjuration spell as you can get without actually having a spellbook listing for it.)


That version.
Which reminds me, if I have a cloud between me and the attacker, can't the attacker just move like 10-30 feet and attack me anyway?

Urpriest
2010-11-14, 04:46 PM
That version.
Which reminds me, if I have a cloud between me and the attacker, can't the attacker just move like 10-30 feet and attack me anyway?

Ah I see. Generally speaking a spell-like ability won't do the same things a spell does, so I don't see it working even with those rules.

Well if they walk through the cloud they'll be sickened. Could they move to the side? Maybe, depending on the area. It's best to use it in enclosed spaces where the enemy can't just go somewhere else and ignore it. Also if your enemy is using a ranged weapon instead of spells then they will want to full attack, which they won't be able to do from where they are.

Akal Saris
2010-11-14, 04:49 PM
CLOUDY CONJURATION
Your conjured creations and summoned beings appear in a
puff of sickening black smoke, and you vanish in a cloud of
the same when you teleport.
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration) or conjurer level
1st.
Benefit: When you cast a conjuration spell, you can choose
to have a 5-foot-radius cloud of sickening smoke manifest.
The cloud can appear in your space, adjacent to you, or in
the space of or adjacent to your target (if any).
The cloud lasts for 1 round. Any living creature is sickened
while inside it (but not after exiting). The cloud in
all other ways acts like a small area of the fog cloud spell.
Creatures immune to poison are immune to the sickening
effect. The cloud appears in conjunction with the spell
taking effect (not before or after). Any creature you call or
summon with the spell is immune to the sickening effect
of the cloud.
Special: A conjurer can select this feat as a wizard bonus
feat.

Are you living? Are you not immune to poison? If the answer to both those questions is yes, then yes, standing in your own cloud will make you sick.

And no version of Abrupt Jaunt has ever triggered Cloudy Conjuration by RAW. However, the previous version gave you good reason to make an argument to a lenient DM that it should trigger Cloudy Conjuration because it's quite similar to casting a conjuration spell.

Frankly, I'm with your DM on this one - Abjurant Jaunt is already amazing enough without letting you auto-dodge arrows and rays without nearby cover to teleport behind. Depending on the power level of the game, I probably wouldn't let Abjurant Jaunt trigger Cloudy Conjuration either.

HMS Invincible
2010-11-14, 06:21 PM
Your conjured creations and summoned beings appear in a
puff of sickening black smoke, and [/B][B]you vanish in a cloud of
the same when you teleport.
Isn't abrupt jaunt a 10 foot teleport? Can you see why I thought it applied to abrupt jaunt? How exactly does changing abrupt jaunt to a supernatural ability change how it triggers when you teleport? People here are saying no, can someone tell me why?

tyckspoon
2010-11-14, 06:29 PM
Your conjured creations and summoned beings appear in a
puff of sickening black smoke, and [/B][B]you vanish in a cloud of
the same when you teleport.
Isn't abrupt jaunt a 10 foot teleport? Can you see why I thought it applied to abrupt jaunt? How exactly does changing abrupt jaunt to a supernatural ability change how it triggers when you teleport? People here are saying no, can someone tell me why?

The part you quoted is unfortunately not part of the actual rules of the feat. That's down in the block that says Benefit:, which specifies "when you cast a Conjuration spell." It'll work when you DimDoor, or Teleport, or use Benign Transposition or Knight's Move- but Abrupt Jaunt is not a spell. It's not even a spell-like anymore, which would have had the RAI/RAMS argument that it's obviously a conjuration ability that very closely mimics a spell, and so should activate the feat.

Nich_Critic
2010-11-14, 06:34 PM
Mostly, I think, because it's not a spell. It doesn't even mimic an existing spell (There are no 10 ft. immediate teleport spells to my recollection). Finally, the first few sentences of a feat are usually fluff, where the rest tells you exactly how the feat should be applied (In this case, "when you cast a conjuration spell").

Edit: Or, what spoon said.

Lev
2010-11-14, 08:14 PM
Threatening origins are, but not bursts
So, what kind of area of effect spell with a 10, 20 or 30' spread can be actually centered on a square? Nothing?
Guess that makes everything look like a miss, not glad about this rule but at least now I know it.

Claudius Maximus
2010-11-14, 10:28 PM
Yeah it's pretty weird with things like Antimagic Field and especially 5-foot emanations (since you're in one corner of a cube, even though it's "centered" on you).

HMS Invincible
2010-11-15, 01:48 AM
Hmmm, abrupt jaunt doesn't trigger it. So the main point of this is to treat it as a spell focus with benefits? That sounds pretty good, I was thinking of it in defensive terms, not offense.

BTW, playing without a grid AND trying to position aoe, enemies, and allies in my head gives me such a headache. I keep forgetting who's where and how many are left.

Edit: Wouldn't me casting summon monster III on a bad guy cause my summon to miss 20% of the time if I plant the cloud on the guy?

Diarmuid
2010-11-15, 01:54 AM
Just going to echo some others here in that AJ shouldnt trigger CC. Though if you have a CC in effect already, AJ'ing behind it will break line of sight and give you cover.

Rixx
2010-11-15, 04:27 AM
I wouldn't even allow Abrupt Jaunt at all.

Raendyn
2010-11-15, 04:51 AM
Because i am familiar with abrupt jaunt & i have used it as DM & as player wth many DM's.

I can tell you that most people understand that abrupt jaunt can be used to evade missles but not emanations & spells with no visual effect.
E.g. you dodge an arrow, but since fireball is emanation the caster points at your next position(if he can see you) & the fire ball goes to you,emanations can change target mid-flight) or if he can't see you redirects it to an other enemy!

There are few people that prefer the "gamist's" version of the spell (few means really few) in that case the jaunt is ultimate/perfect dodge attack that waste's enemy's attack.
e.g. They don;t let you redirect anything,& even spells that are not missles fail.
The later case ( let's say: dominate monster) require's a spellcraft check or/and a spot check to see what the spell is And if you are the target!

Many if not most DM's ask the spellcraft check anyways or (you didn't saw it,you weren't ready to jaunt it) they force you to take the hit because they consider you being unaware of the attack so by RAW you can't use any spell even imidiate actions.

As for the cloudy conjuration... discuss if he accepts jaunt as a conjuration spell ( i can't see why he wouldn't)

But as someone allready mentioned The DM is always right

Myth
2010-11-15, 08:41 AM
I would allow Abrupt Jaunt to dodge anything that is:
1. Identified as an attack.
2. Targeted (not AOE, Emanation, a Chained spell etc.)

The archers pt the arrows in their bows - do they threaten everoyne in their LOS? No. It's pretty obvious who you want to shoot with your arrow. Once they loose you can AJ away. The reaction time is the same s that vs. a skilled slashing attack by a swordsman next to you (if one has to argue with RL terms). If you can dodge that guy's longsword thrust or slash, you can dodge an arrow loosed from 60 ft. away.

It's even easier to time it with rays/targeted spells, provided you beat the Spellcraft DC, because you know when the verbal/somatic components are done .

HMS Invincible
2010-11-15, 02:12 PM
Right now, the DM is snagging me with AOE spells and unaware attacks. The range attack thing is ok for now, since I have protection from arrows. It's just that I have a negative con modifier for being an elf + low point buy. The more tricks I have to avoid getting hit, the better. The times he has hit me, I've spent the entire encounter playing cards because nobody could heal me.

The DM is actually going towards the other side of the pendulum. For example, charge attacks keep going if I abrupt jaunt. Rays/range attacks get an attack roll unless I have total cover/concealment. Aoe effects are bigger than my teleport range. Unaware attacks and invisible enemies. Random rooms and chairs with dimensional anchor.

Back to cloudy conjuration: If I summon Monster III with it, doesn't that mean that the monster has a 20% miss chance?
With above rules, should I bother using cloudy conjuration defensively?