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randomhero00
2010-11-14, 06:30 PM
Anyone done this? I'm about to do this and plan on typing up a page or two. Its for a lot of power. Not sure exactly what to ask for. I'm hoping someone really diligent has already done this and has a basic outline for a contract that would protect me. The basic deal is he doesn't get my soul until I die. So I need to make myself as unkillable as possible. And theoretically eventually become a god (hopefully).

Edit: essentially think of it like a super duper powered wish that can grant nearly anything except divine ranks.

PS my character is melee homebrew with a few SLAs

Evil DM Mark3
2010-11-14, 06:33 PM
First, this is in a game, right?

Second, talk to GM about what is acceptable. And do RESEARCH. Serious research. This is prime messing you over territory.

randomhero00
2010-11-14, 06:35 PM
First, this is in a game, right?

Second, talk to GM about what is acceptable. And do RESEARCH. Serious research. This is prime messing you over territory.

Yes, lol.

Do research how? I'm talking to a god and have to make the decision (in character) right away. Or did you mean out of character research? In which case, I am. This is the thread for it.

edit: 3.5

Psyren
2010-11-14, 06:44 PM
My advice: don't do it. There's nothing you can come up with that a devil can't screw over, and your character (being melee) probably doesn't have the extranormal brainpower to do so either. So you are SOL both OOC and IC.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-14, 06:45 PM
My advice: sign the contract and immediatly become a lich. If this isn't possible don't do it (death knights good too).

mikau013
2010-11-14, 06:55 PM
I'd get married first and then sell my soul for a donut :)

NelKor
2010-11-14, 06:56 PM
Uhm.. if the deal is when you die to forfeit your soul Lich and Death knight won't work, since you die to become one...

nedz
2010-11-14, 07:04 PM
I'd get married first and then sell my soul for a donut :)
Isn't that like selling your soul twice in one day :smallbiggrin:

To the OP:
Is the god trustworthy ?
Might he not, immediatly after you sign, just kill you and say "SUCKER" :smallbiggrin:

randomhero00
2010-11-14, 07:14 PM
Isn't that like selling your soul twice in one day :smallbiggrin:

To the OP:
Is the god trustworthy ?
Might he not, immediatly after you sign, just kill you and say "SUCKER" :smallbiggrin:

No he's not, which is why I need an air tight clause that will prevent him from killing me or sending me on suicide missions. Which is why I plan on writing up several pages. I just assumed someone must have gone through this before. It seems like it'd be a common theme in DnD.

I'm already more powerful than a death knight. So asking for that is meh.

Edit to be clear I'm looking for epic level power suggestions on what to ask for.

true_shinken
2010-11-14, 07:29 PM
Sell your soul... then try not to die.
Dragonborning helps... and it could mean Bahamut will ressurrect you as a hellbred if you die, before the demon takes your soul.

AslanCross
2010-11-14, 10:40 PM
I'm surprised you're the one writing the contract to begin with. Usually the devil will make you an offer you can't refuse, but some loophole clause in his contract will screw you over big time.

If you're going into Epic level power, it's simple: Bonus Feat: Epic Spellcasting.

Alleran
2010-11-14, 10:59 PM
Pull a John Constantine. Sell your soul to three (or more) archdevils. That way, when you die, they'll all have a claim on you. Hopefully, this will mean that in order to avoid having to go to war over who'll get your soul, they'll instead have to release you from your contract.

Electrohydra
2010-11-14, 11:34 PM
I'm not sure this would work (need to review the rules, but I'm to lazy), but how about selling your soul (Make sure you sell ONLY your soul, not your body or your mind), add a clause saying he cannot do anything that would affect you in any way, and then become a lich. He owns your philactary (so it's super well protected), but he can't destroy it as leverage.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 02:39 PM
If you're going into Epic level power, it's simple: Bonus Feat: Epic Spellcasting.

I've never done epic before. Does that open up all epic spells or something? How does that work?

druid91
2010-11-15, 02:49 PM
I've never done epic before. Does that open up all epic spells or something? How does that work?

It gives you epic spell slots.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 02:52 PM
Does it give me epic spells though? I'm not a caster per se.

The Big Dice
2010-11-15, 03:10 PM
No he's not, which is why I need an air tight clause that will prevent him from killing me or sending me on suicide missions. Which is why I plan on writing up several pages. I just assumed someone must have gone through this before. It seems like it'd be a common theme in DnD.
There's a ton of ways round those kind of clauses.

It wasn't a suicide mission when I sent you. Ok it became one after I sent a bunch of maxed out Pit Fiends to help out the place you were going, but when I sent you it was fine.

I didn't do it. I asked my buddy here to do it.

I sold you out to the good guys to get them out of the way of the thing I was really planning.

What, you mean you didn't notice the bit about how you get all the good stuff for only 12 hours before I claim what's mine?

I gave you those goodies. Which means I can *snaps fingers* take them all away.

If you're making deals with devils, you may as well just make a new character.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 03:12 PM
There's a ton of ways round those kind of clauses.

It wasn't a suicide mission when I sent you. Ok it became one after I sent a bunch of maxed out Pit Fiends to help out the place you were going, but when I sent you it was fine.

I didn't do it. I asked my buddy here to do it.

I sold you out to the good guys to get them out of the way of the thing I was really planning.

What, you mean you didn't notice the bit about how you get all the good stuff for only 12 hours before I claim what's mine?

I gave you those goodies. Which means I can *snaps fingers* take them all away.

If you're making deals with devils, you may as well just make a new character.

I'm positive my DM wouldn't screw me over that much. Still, those are good points I'm looking for thanks. I'll be sure to include such clauses.

The Big Dice
2010-11-15, 03:18 PM
I'm positive my DM wouldn't screw me over that much. Still, those are good points I'm looking for thanks. I'll be sure to include such clauses.

No matter how specific you get, you can't stop a devil from finding a way to screw you over. In fact, the more specific you get, the easier it is for you to be the victim of something you never thought of. Worse, it could simply say no to you. You want such a complex contract that the devil in question might just decide you're more hassle than you're worth.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 03:20 PM
No matter how specific you get, you can't stop a devil from finding a way to screw you over. In fact, the more specific you get, the easier it is for you to be the victim of something you never thought of. Worse, it could simply say no to you. You want such a complex contract that the devil in question might just decide you're more hassle than you're worth.

First, its a god, not a devil. Second it wants me badly.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 03:21 PM
Sell your body to the night! Use the money to get another guy drunk enough he sells his soul to give you power.

Last Laugh
2010-11-15, 03:30 PM
I'm positive my DM wouldn't screw me over that much. Still, those are good points I'm looking for thanks. I'll be sure to include such clauses.

It probably depends on what you ask for. If you keep your wish relatively low power you probably won't get power revoked.

buuuut if the wish takes you way over the power level of the rest of the party (and probably takes away from their enjoyment) you might get smacked really fast.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 03:52 PM
First, this is in a game, right?

Second, talk to GM about what is acceptable. And do RESEARCH. Serious research. This is prime messing you over territory.

Also, prime having the game fizzle/dissolve/explode spectacularly material.

So I definitely urge you to be cautious.

Aharon
2010-11-15, 03:55 PM
They are kind of gamebreaking, but there are actual rules for that sort of thing in the Fiendish Codex dealing with the lawful evil outsiders (you can get lots of power via these contracts, for the cost of not being raisable).

If you have that sourcebook, you might use it as a base, though.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 03:59 PM
They are kind of gamebreaking, but there are actual rules for that sort of thing in the Fiendish Codex dealing with the lawful evil outsiders (you can get lots of power via these contracts, for the cost of not being raisable).

If you have that sourcebook, you might use it as a base, though.

Ohhh thank you! Because I'm already not raisable!

Also, to the others, the campaign is almost at an end, so I should be able to ask for quite a bit of power.

The Big Dice
2010-11-15, 03:59 PM
First, its a god, not a devil. Second it wants me badly.

It sounds to le that no matter what you do, you're over a barrel. You might think you have the power now, but it's going to be turned against you at some point.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 04:01 PM
It sounds to le that no matter what you do, you're over a barrel. You might think you have the power now, but it's going to be turned against you at some point.

Well that's the fun isn't it? To roleplay evil and find out! :smallsmile:

OracleofWuffing
2010-11-15, 04:15 PM
The contract is that the creditor gets your Immortal Soul upon death, right?

Mmmmkay, name your favorite copper piece Immortal Soul. For added hilarity, spend that copper piece.

Disclaimer: Oracle of Wuffing is not responsible for any less than desirable results from following his advice. No actual results of Oracle of Wuffing's advice are guaranteed. Do not follow Oracle of Wuffing's advice while pregnant, drowsy, or operating heavy machinery. You may currently live in a state where following Oracle of Wuffing's advice may be illegal. Please consult your doctor for more information.

Yora
2010-11-15, 04:25 PM
That would be too easy. Actual lawyers and judges very rarely go by the letter of the word, but stick to the meaning of the word. With a wish spell, the wording is important, but if you make a deal with a devil you get exactly what you wanted, but they still find a way so you won't be able to enjoy it.

If you sell your soul, it should be for a very good reason. Because you just HAVE to.
Just selling your soul because it's easy money, without an idea what to do with it, is certainly not a good idea.

randomhero00
2010-11-15, 04:38 PM
I am sellin my soul pretty much because I have to. Secondly this isn't a wish, its a deal for power. Big difference.

OMG PONIES
2010-11-15, 04:46 PM
No matter how prepared you are, the house always wins. You only have a set time to think of your request and any stipulations, while they have that time plus the time after the contract's in place (be it an instant or an eternity) to pick it apart looking for loopholes. They will get you.

Cogidubnus
2010-11-15, 04:51 PM
I will quote Dr Faustus, because he built a pretty damn good contract:

"On these conditions following:
First, that Faustus may be a spirit in form and substance.
Secondly, that Mephistopheles shall be his servant, and be by him commanded.
Thirdly, that Mephistopheles shall do for him and bring him whatsoever.
Fourthly, that he [Mephistopheles] shall be in his [Faustus'] chamber or house invisible.
Lastly, that he shall appear to the said John Faustus at all times in what shape and form soever he please.
I, John Faustus of Wittenburg, Doctor, by these presents, do give both body and soul to Lucifer, Prince of the East, and his minister Mephistopheles; and furthermore grant unto them that four-and-twenty years being expired, and these articles above written being inviolate, full power to fetch and carry the said John Faustus, body and soul, flesh, blood, into their habitation wheresoever."

Now, replace Mephistopheles with the powers you want (Epic level Binder? A host of Greater Planar Allies for free?), and the four-and-twenty years bit to something like: "four-and twenty years being expired, "name" shall cease to breathe, after which the aforementioned parties, these articles above written being inviolate, have full power to fetch and carry "name", body and soul, wheresoever."

Just make sure the time frame of four-and-twenty years is long enough that you can achieve a state where you no longer need to breathe.

OMG PONIES
2010-11-15, 05:04 PM
But four-and-twenty years on a plane with fast time can go by quite quickly on the material. You see, the house always wins.

Cogidubnus
2010-11-15, 05:06 PM
But four-and-twenty years on a plane with fast time can go by quite quickly on the material. You see, the house always wins.

Then you're letting devils plane shift you there? They could just as easily Plane Shift you to Baator and eat you.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 05:07 PM
But four-and-twenty years on a plane with fast time can go by quite quickly on the material. You see, the house always wins.

Well, you can take care of that via a clause taking care of subjective time. It's annoying to have to hash it all out, but in the end if you really wanna get into a ****ing contest with the DM over your grasp of contract law and the formulation of sentences, that's... up to the individual group. That's personally not my idea of a good time though.

Electrohydra
2010-11-15, 05:08 PM
Maybe try and make a spelling mistake in your name, thus the contract does not refer to you. Bonus points if you use your truename.

Cogidubnus
2010-11-15, 05:08 PM
Well, you can take care of that via a clause taking care of subjective time. It's annoying to have to hash it all out, but in the end if you really wanna get into a ****ing contest with the DM over your grasp of contract law and the formulation of sentences, that's... up to the individual group. That's personally not my idea of a good time though.

I, on the other hand, would love it :smallbiggrin:
Maybe I SHOULD go be a lawyer...

Drothmal
2010-11-15, 05:20 PM
I would like to know a bit more about your character in order to give appropriate advice, but general guidelines of things to ask for are

1) Tarrasque-like regeneration (so you cannot be killed by damage). Take out the part where you can actually be killed with wish
2) That the god will in not try to bring forth your untimely demise directly or indirectly, and that if anyone working for him (even without knowing so) kills you, the god has to bring you back to how you were upon obtaining the powers of the contract
3) As mentioned before, if you have to set a time clause, use a non-relative time (such as a certain amount of time spent at home plane time while being in no ways bounded or incapacitated to exert your free will)
4) Ask for ability to deny magic at will in whatever areas you want for whatever time you want as a free action
5) A bit more subjetive, but if the God does not know that you want to take over his place, just say "until I have reached one specific goal", specifying that trying to find out your goal or hindering you achieving it will let you retain the power but he has no longer claim on your soul

Hirax
2010-11-15, 05:25 PM
That would be too easy. Actual lawyers and judges very rarely go by the letter of the word, but stick to the meaning of the word.

In real life? Because that's untrue in the USA, I'd be interested in hearing how Germany differs. The intent of a law is only considered when there are ambiguities in it over here. I imagine this is the approach that would be taken in Baator too, were things to come to a trial for ownership of your soul. From a roleplaying perspective, at least. The rules for a trial in Baator are simply a set of opposed skill checks to see who wins.

Grendus
2010-11-15, 06:01 PM
In real life? Because that's untrue in the USA, I'd be interested in hearing how Germany differs. The intent of a law is only considered when there are ambiguities in it over here. I imagine this is the approach that would be taken in Baator too, were things to come to a trial for ownership of your soul. From a roleplaying perspective, at least. The rules for a trial in Baator are simply a set of opposed skill checks to see who wins.

With a good DM, the truth is worth a +2 circumstance modifier.

The Big Dice
2010-11-15, 07:19 PM
I am sellin my soul pretty much because I have to. Secondly this isn't a wish, its a deal for power. Big difference.

If you're being told you have to sell your soul, then you're definetly being scammed.

And if it's a god offering you the deal, go see what the god in the next temple down the street is willing to offer you. You never buy the first car the dealer offers you, after all...

OracleofWuffing
2010-11-15, 09:16 PM
That would be too easy. Actual lawyers and judges very rarely go by the letter of the word, but stick to the meaning of the word.

Really? I usually hear it the other way around. "I wish for a million bucks" getting you a million deer, "I wish for a whole lotta dough" getting you plenty to eat if you got a good oven on hand, and the like.

Which reminds me, you can't be raised, then? Get a burrowing speed, and burrow before the god comes for payment. Won't be able to get that soul unless it violates the grounds of the contract.

Alternatively, befriend a diplomancer. (Holy Yakov Smirnoff!)

Milo v3
2010-11-15, 10:23 PM
Diplomancer? Is that Homebrew or in some amazingly strange sourcebook?

And with the contract. What is in the Gods portfolio? Because gods normally only have power over the things in thier control.

OracleofWuffing
2010-11-15, 10:52 PM
Diplomancer? Is that Homebrew or in some amazingly strange sourcebook?

It's a build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9714575&postcount=5) that pumps Diplomacy, making it incredibly easy to befriend enemies and have them do whatever you tell them to because WotC never really got the memo on Diplomacy as written. Another build based on the same concept is the Jumplomancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer_-_are_you_serious), who substitutes a jump check for the diplomacy check and gets people to worship him or her as a god or goddess. Yes, this also applies to gods and goddesses as well. And, wouldn't you know it, there's a good number of deities that aren't doing so hot in the diplomacy skill.

mikeejimbo
2010-11-16, 01:21 AM
One of my characters sold part of his soul. But it was only a teensy, unnoticeable part of it, so I let it go for cheap. (Information on who this organization abducted, or something like that.) The rest of my group was pissed. When I reminded them that it wasn't technically my soul I sold, they only thought I was all the more evil.

I also let the said spirit possess me for an hour for another trade... but I forget what that one was for.

Recently, we (as a group) made a deal with another spirit. The trade was far more even though - we gave him a certain quantity of spirit essence and he protected this werewolf for us for a while. But spirits are so law-bound that someone had to write up a contract. The GM was impressed by my contract-writing skills, so I think the spirit isn't even going to try to find a loophole. (I don't think it's particularly evil, anyway. The only stipulation I could find was that he might be able to put the werewolf we wanted to protect in danger in certain other ways, but my character didn't care so much. He only needed the werewolf to think he was protected so that we could get on with getting his caretaker to help us.)