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Moginheden
2010-11-14, 09:08 PM
The text of every class I've seen that gives Uncanny Dodge mentions that you get Improved Uncanny Dodge instead if you already have Uncanny Dodge from another class. However they don't mention what happens when you get Improved Uncanny Dodge AND 2 sources of Uncanny Dodge.

I'm making an assassin. He uses 5 levels of rogue to get the required disguise, hide, and move silently ranks. At character level 7 he will get Improved Uncanny Dodge due to having Uncanny Dodge from both assassin and rogue. At character level 10 what happens? He would be picking up Improved Uncanny Dodge, but he already has that. Does he get another feat instead? Is there some Uber Uncanny Dodge I've never heard of he gains? Does he get screwed?

I'd expect a rogue 5 / assassin 10 would be the most common way to get all 10 levels of assassin so the rule makers should have thought of this.

Urpriest
2010-11-14, 09:10 PM
He gets nothing but a redundant ability. This is why you would want to substitute out the rogue's uncanny dodge for something more unique.

Moginheden
2010-11-14, 09:12 PM
He gets nothing but a redundant ability. This is why you would want to substitute out the rogue's uncanny dodge for something more unique.

how? the rogue is getting uncanny dodge as class feature, and the assassin is granting it as a class feature. I never picked it as a feat.

Urpriest
2010-11-14, 09:15 PM
how? the rogue is getting uncanny dodge as class feature, and the assassin is granting it as a class feature. I never picked it as a feat.

Alternate Class Features or Substitution Levels. I don't remember which deal with Uncanny Dodge specifically, but several books include options by which a character can trade one class feature for another. Unearthed Arcana has a bunch (they're in the online SRD as well) and many later 3.5 books have a few.

Signmaker
2010-11-14, 10:32 PM
Alternate Class Features or Substitution Levels. I don't remember which deal with Uncanny Dodge specifically, but several books include options by which a character can trade one class feature for another. Unearthed Arcana has a bunch (they're in the online SRD as well) and many later 3.5 books have a few.

To list a few books to check:

Complete Champion
Dungeonscape
Complete Mage
Champions of Valor (Web Enhancement includes at least 1 rogue sub)
Races of X (If you happen to be of an applicable race)

gorfnab
2010-11-15, 12:02 AM
ACF for Uncanny Dodge
Disruptive Attack - PHBII

ACF for Improved Uncanny Dodge
Changeling Rogue - RoE
Goliath Rogue - RoS
Kobold Rogue - RotD
Uncanny Bravery - DM

Safety Sword
2010-11-15, 12:19 AM
He gets nothing but a redundant ability. This is why you would want to substitute out the rogue's uncanny dodge for something more unique.

Also note you get Uncanny Dodge (and the Improved version) at a much later level if you go this route. If you're building the character at Level 15 I suppose it's fine. All depends on if you can do without it until then.

Moginheden
2010-11-15, 12:46 AM
Also note you get Uncanny Dodge (and the Improved version) at a much later level if you go this route. If you're building the character at Level 15 I suppose it's fine. All depends on if you can do without it until then.

Building for ECL 10 has this problem, don't need to wait for 15.

Looks like only 2 routes to fix this for my halfing rogue: I can gain the ability to trade my massive sneak attack damage for lowering the AC of someone I have successfully hit already, (Disruptive Attack - PHBII.) Or I can get a bonus vs fear effects, (Uncanny Bravery - DM) I'd prefer another choice, but it's still better than losing the benefit entirely, thank you.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-15, 08:21 AM
Looks like only 2 routes to fix this for my halfing rogue: I can gain the ability to trade my massive sneak attack damage for lowering the AC of someone I have successfully hit already, (Disruptive Attack - PHBII.) Or I can get a bonus vs fear effects, (Uncanny Bravery - DM) I'd prefer another choice, but it's still better than losing the benefit entirely, thank you.
Uncanny Bravery gives you immunity to dragon Frightful Presence, and +4 vs. other fear effects. That more than cancels out the -2 penalty from Craven (Champions of Ruin). As someone who's played a Rogue who was forced (repeatedly) to flee from fights, I recommend this ACF. :smallamused:

If you've still got race as an option, a Changeling could gain Mutable Anatomy (essentially 50% fortification) in a substitution level; see Races of Eberron on page 122. Goliaths can get 25% fortification (Races of Stone, page 152).

Person_Man
2010-11-15, 10:28 AM
The text of every class I've seen that gives Uncanny Dodge mentions that you get Improved Uncanny Dodge instead if you already have Uncanny Dodge from another class. However they don't mention what happens when you get Improved Uncanny Dodge AND 2 sources of Uncanny Dodge.

The classes stack to determine what level of Rogue can Flank you.

For example, a Rogue 5/Assassin 10 can only be Flanked by a 19th level Rogue. Whereas a Ranger 5/Assassin 10 can be Flanked by a 14th level Rogue.

Moginheden
2010-11-15, 02:31 PM
The classes stack to determine what level of Rogue can Flank you.

For example, a Rogue 5/Assassin 10 can only be Flanked by a 19th level Rogue. Whereas a Ranger 5/Assassin 10 can be Flanked by a 14th level Rogue.

That doesn't affect the problem though as you get the stacking unflankable from 2 uncanny dodge class features and it's common to get 3 in these situations. The 3rd is the problem I'm trying to overcome here.