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Ryuk01
2010-11-14, 10:30 PM
Is this feasible and reasonably powerful? I realize Wizard 5/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 10 is a sample build, but are there any better ones?

Psyren
2010-11-14, 10:31 PM
Cleric 20
Druid 20

:smalltongue:

Evard
2010-11-14, 10:42 PM
Cleric 20
Druid 20

:smalltongue:

yep! Or run a gestalt game and have each person play as

Cleric/Rogue
Wizard/Fighter
Sorcerer/Barbarian

Or something like that

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-14, 10:47 PM
A ranger 2/Wizard 3/Eldritch Knight 10/Wiz +5 is not THAT bad, at level 20 you get BAB 16 and 9th level spells, the standard gish.

If the SRD is counted as core a Psywarrior/Slayer is not bad

Psyren
2010-11-14, 10:57 PM
If the SRD is counted as core a Psywarrior/Slayer is not bad

If you're going Slayer you may as well ditch Psywar and go Psion instead. Ranger 2/Psion 8/Slayer 10 gets you 9th-level powers and 16 BAB. (Prime candidates for gi****ude are Egoist and Nomad.)

EDIT: gish-itude. Silly filter :smalltongue:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-14, 10:57 PM
Barbarian 9+, Leadership for a Wizard 7+ who can cast Polymorph on you. That's about the only decently powerful core-only gish spell, and it's not personal range. Cleric with the Magic domain and a Wand of Polymorph is just as good, if not better.

A Gish should have Power Attack (core), Arcane Strike (CW), Practiced Spellcaster (CA, CD), and Leap Attack (CV). He should cast Wraithstrike, Whirling Blade, Bladeweave, Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, and (Greater) Luminous Armor, plus Haste, Mirror Image, Greater Magic Weapon, Shield, and Polymorph, though Draconic Polymorph and Greater Mirror Image are much stronger choices. He needs more than just Eldritch Knight to advance both BAB and spellcasting, Core-only you're stuck with a final build of Wizard 8/ Fighter 2/ EK 10 for the bare minimum +16 BAB and 9th level spells by 20th, and there's no Practiced Spellcaster. Core-only Gish builds are far too lacking in options to make it worth playing over a focused caster or a CoDzilla.

grarrrg
2010-11-14, 11:04 PM
Is this feasible and reasonably powerful? I realize Wizard 5/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 10 is a sample build, but are there any better ones?

In Core-Only, there are VERY few Gish options
All Arcane Gishes will want/need Eldritch Knight. Pick one of Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin, add one of Wizard/Sorcerer. Set Eldritch Knight to 10, at least 2 levels of (full Bab choice) and at least 5 or 6 levels of (caster choice). Ta-da! you now have 16+ Bab, and a caster level of 14+.
Paladin 2+/Sorcerer 6+/Eldritch Knight 10 is a decent choice for the Cha synergy (SAVES!)

For Divine Gishes, you can either go Druid 20 (Wildshape for the win!) or Cleric 20 (Divine Power for the win!).

For a more 'Multi-class' Divine Gish, you can't go wrong with some Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin). It has 8/15 casting progression with full Bab and d10 hp. You will probably be better off with more levels of Cleric than going the full 15 levels though.
Fighter 1/Cleric 4/Pres-Pala 3/Cleric 5-16 will give 16 Bab, and caster level 18.
Going Pres-Pala 5 and Cleric 14 will lose one caster level, but give an extra Smite Evil (whoo) and a once-a-week Remove Disease (whoo).

Eldariel
2010-11-14, 11:21 PM
Barbarian 9+, Leadership for a Wizard 7+ who can cast Polymorph on you. That's about the only decently powerful core-only gish spell, and it's not personal range. Cleric with the Magic domain and a Wand of Polymorph is just as good, if not better.

A Gish should have Power Attack (core), Arcane Strike (CW), Practiced Spellcaster (CA, CD), and Leap Attack (CV). He should cast Wraithstrike, Whirling Blade, Bladeweave, Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, and (Greater) Luminous Armor, plus Haste, Mirror Image, Greater Magic Weapon, Shield, and Polymorph, though Draconic Polymorph and Greater Mirror Image are much stronger choices. He needs more than just Eldritch Knight to advance both BAB and spellcasting, Core-only you're stuck with a final build of Wizard 8/ Fighter 2/ EK 10 for the bare minimum +16 BAB and 9th level spells by 20th, and there's no Practiced Spellcaster. Core-only Gish builds are far too lacking in options to make it worth playing over a focused caster or a CoDzilla.

Compared to anything but full casters though, Core Gishes still perform just fine; you still get GMW, Polymorph, Mirror Image, Mage Armor, True Strike, Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Greater Heroism and so on. While you don't have that many buffs, you still have enough to make it work.

But yeah, Ranger 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight is the best you can look at in the long term; that said, Ranger 1/Wizard 5 is a decent entry and around level 10, the Gish tends to perform alright. Lacking Practiced Spellcaster is the single biggest thing screwing over a Core Gish. That hurts some of the key buffs and makes you way more suspectible to Dispels (which are already the bane of Gishes everywhere).

Endarire
2010-11-15, 12:57 AM
Human or Gray Elf Ranger1/Wizard5/Eldirtch Knight10/Wizard+X.

Myth
2010-11-15, 09:12 AM
The problem with Gishes (especially those out of Core) is that while they do have some mobility/versatility, full attacking is still the inferior option to casting spells. When you take out PrCs like Spellsword (the top of the foodchain IMO when it comes to gishdom), Abjurant Champion, feats like Practiced Spellcaster and Arcane Strike, your gish will either cast spells anyway, or just swing his sword when the enemies are pathetic (but that's not necessary if there's other melee types in the party anyway).

I'd advise going for a Rogue/Assassin/Shadowdancer build instead. It gets great mobility and some spells while still using melee most of the time. Just avoid Laugh Attack.

gbprime
2010-11-15, 09:56 AM
your gish will either cast spells anyway, or just swing his sword when the enemies are pathetic (but that's not necessary if there's other melee types in the party anyway).

That's what optimization is for. :smallamused:

A good gish will channel spells through his weapon, proc bonus damage with his melee attacks, polymorph into something even more lethal, and/or make use of Whirling Blade to turn his pumped up melee attack into an AoE attack. The reserve feat Minor Shapeshift makes great gish action too, as do spells like Displacement and Heart of Earth.

dspeyer
2010-11-15, 11:02 AM
There's monstrous gishes, like driders, raksashas and coatls. They're weak by normal gish standards, but have special abilities that make up for some of it. They improve greatly with la buyoff and truly shine in gestalt.

Mando Knight
2010-11-15, 11:12 AM
In Core-Only, there are VERY few Gish options
All Arcane Gishes will want/need Eldritch Knight. Pick one of Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin, add one of Wizard/Sorcerer. Set Eldritch Knight to 10, at least 2 levels of (full Bab choice) and at least 5 or 6 levels of (caster choice). Ta-da! you now have 16+ Bab, and a caster level of 14+.
Paladin 2+/Sorcerer 6+/Eldritch Knight 10 is a decent choice for the Cha synergy (SAVES!)

My favorite is the Pal 2/Sorc 8/EK 10 because of its massive bonus to all saves, and a free minor heal. You can actually dump Wis for this build since you never reach a level where the Paladin gains spellcasting, and Paladin also grants you a minor bonus to hit/damage once per day and a free (minor) healing ability once per day. You can "boost" it to Pal 4/Sorc 6/EK 10 for additional BAB, HP, and Turn Undead (as well as increased damage from Smite and healing from Lay on Hands); but TU is best used with Divine Shield/Might in this case (AC/damage boost for Cha rounds for one TU use!), rather than as straight up Turning.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 11:37 AM
My favorite is the Pal 2/Sorc 8/EK 10 because of its massive bonus to all saves, and a free minor heal. You can actually dump Wis for this build since you never reach a level where the Paladin gains spellcasting, and Paladin also grants you a minor bonus to hit/damage once per day and a free (minor) healing ability once per day. You can "boost" it to Pal 4/Sorc 6/EK 10 for additional BAB, HP, and Turn Undead (as well as increased damage from Smite and healing from Lay on Hands); but TU is best used with Divine Shield/Might in this case (AC/damage boost for Cha rounds for one TU use!), rather than as straight up Turning.

The principal issue with Pal 2/Sorc 8/EK 10 is that it never gets 9th level spells. That makes it decidedly mediocre. It works out beautifully out of Core with Spellsword > Abjurant Champion > Sacred Exorcist giving you full casting thanks to those two Pally levels, and gaining you further Cha synergies but in Core...meh. Overall, you kinda really want to make your Gishes Wizards in Core for that very reason. There's, notably, Shapechange, Time Stop, Astral Projection, Disjunction and Foresight which are all very potent in the hands of a Gish (Time Stop; the ultimate buff machine - Shapechange; the ultimate buff - Astral Projection; immortality - Disjunction; necessity for defeating true casters - Foresight; Never Be Flat-Footed).

And same really goes for all the lower levels of spells; they all bring an array of new tools that are insanely potent and not having access to them just bites (Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Dimensional Lock, and hell, Iron Body on 8; Spell Turning, Instant Summons, Plane Shift, Sailor Greater Teleport, Ethereal Jaunt on 7; Greater Dispel Magic, Anti-Magic Field, Globe of Invulnerability, Contingency. Greater Heroism on 6, etc.). That's why I find the minimalistic approach of having one level in full BAB followed by 5-6 caster followed by full EK followed by 2 more of caster to get 9s ASAP to be optimal. Then the last level can provide the 16th point of BAB.

Myth
2010-11-15, 12:22 PM
That's what optimization is for. :smallamused:

A good gish will channel spells through his weapon, proc bonus damage with his melee attacks, polymorph into something even more lethal, and/or make use of Whirling Blade to turn his pumped up melee attack into an AoE attack. The reserve feat Minor Shapeshift makes great gish action too, as do spells like Displacement and Heart of Earth.

Guess you missed the part before the one you quoted?


When you take out PrCs like Spellsword (the top of the foodchain IMO when it comes to gishdom), Abjurant Champion, feats like Practiced Spellcaster and Arcane Strike, your gish will either cast spells anyway, or just swing his sword when the enemies are pathetic or the part where the OP asked for a Core only Gish build?

Mando Knight
2010-11-15, 12:45 PM
The principal issue with Pal 2/Sorc 8/EK 10 is that it never gets 9th level spells. That makes it decidedly mediocre.

On the other hand, if you're considering a core-only arcane gish, you're probably not looking for maximum optimization anyway, so missing out on some spells you only get at levels 18+ won't hurt you too much.

On the other other hand, Sorc/Wiz 9/Barb 1/EK 10 is better spells-wise, grants 2 extra skill points (8 if you take Barbarian at first level, but then you need to spend 2 points if you want to be able to read), and a synergy with Tenser's Transformation. (Rage doesn't grant Enhancement bonuses)

true_shinken
2010-11-15, 01:03 PM
grants 2 extra skill points (8 if you take Barbarian at first level, but then you need to spend 2 points if you want to be able to read)
Nah, not at all. 3.5 added a silly rule that if you multiclass, you learn to read.
'The dragon blood, flowing through my veins... I... I... I can read!'

Psyren
2010-11-15, 01:09 PM
Nah, not at all. 3.5 added a silly rule that if you multiclass, you learn to read.
'The dragon blood, flowing through my veins... I... I... I can read!'

That is far from the silliest ability enabled by dragonblood. :smalltongue:

Mando Knight
2010-11-15, 01:18 PM
Nah, not at all. 3.5 added a silly rule that if you multiclass, you learn to read.
'The dragon blood, flowing through my veins... I... I... I can read!'

...So it did. If that includes prestige classes, then the illiteracy probably ranks as one of the stupidest restrictions ever.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 01:28 PM
On the other hand, if you're considering a core-only arcane gish, you're probably not looking for maximum optimization anyway, so missing out on some spells you only get at levels 18+ won't hurt you too much.

But missing out on the best Gish-spells kinda sucks :smallfrown: I mean, Time Stop basically means you get to start every encounter with any buffs you desire, for example. And not having 16 BAB kinda sucks too since with all the buffs, even the last iterative can hit and it's quite the damage multiplier. Sure, it's all only relevant on 20 but if we consider the level 20 build...well, they're the considerations. It really scales quite decently.

Tho yeah, Barbarian is an incredibly solid option too; Fast Movement is v. good early on and Rage gives you an extra "spell" each day. It has less skills and a worse list than Ranger tho which is why I prefer Ranger; Ranger 2 gets you free Rapid Shot which nicely gives you an extra option. Rapid Shot + Buffspells is about the best you can do with a bow in Core anyways and you get that without any of the PBS/Precise non-sense normal characters need.

Last Laugh
2010-11-15, 02:18 PM
...So it did. If that includes prestige classes, then the illiteracy probably ranks as one of the stupidest restrictions ever.
Pff, Illiteracy grants immunity to several dangerous spells. all you need is some wizard chump to translate stuff for you and you will be UNSTOPPABLE barb20 all the way.
I prepared explosive runes!
I really wish I could have my sorcerer give up the ability to read....

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 02:25 PM
Pff, Illiteracy grants immunity to several dangerous spells. all you need is some wizard chump to translate stuff for you and you will be UNSTOPPABLE barb20 all the way.
I prepared explosive runes!
I really wish I could have my sorcerer give up the ability to read....

There is a trait for that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#illiterate)

Volos
2010-11-15, 02:30 PM
yep! Or run a gestalt game and have each person play as

Cleric/Rogue
Wizard/Fighter
Sorcerer/Barbarian

Or something like that

...gestalt isn't core.

Amphetryon
2010-11-15, 02:51 PM
In 'Psionics is Core' game, Wilder 20 makes a serviceable and very simple gish.

Last Laugh
2010-11-15, 03:23 PM
There is a trait for that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#illiterate)

Thanks Eldariel!

Tokuhara
2010-11-15, 03:32 PM
No love for Bard here? It's a gish in a box for cryin' out loud!

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 04:33 PM
No love for Bard here? It's a gish in a box for cryin' out loud!

Core-Only though, it's not as impressive as it could be. Bard only really shines once you get out of core and it can specialize.

Tokuhara
2010-11-15, 04:42 PM
Core-Only though, it's not as impressive as it could be. Bard only really shines once you get out of core and it can specialize.

It's still essentially a gish in a box tho

Felhammer
2010-11-15, 04:45 PM
No love for Bard here? It's a gish in a box for cryin' out loud!

I've always seen the Bard as a Rogue-Mage, not a Fighter-Mage :)

Psyren
2010-11-15, 04:52 PM
In 'Psionics is Core' game, Wilder 20 makes a serviceable and very simple gish.

Paladin 2/Wilder 18 is decent as well. MWP, Heavy armor and shields (which don't interfere with your manifesting) and you get your primary stat to saves, plus a boost to BAB and detect evil/good.

Tokuhara
2010-11-15, 04:53 PM
Paladin 2/Wilder 18 is decent as well. MWP, Heavy armor and shields (which don't interfere with your manifesting) and you get your primary stat to saves, plus a boost to BAB and detect evil/good.

No this guy is genius, minus this is a Psi-Gish, but whatever

Amphetryon
2010-11-15, 04:59 PM
No this guy is genius, minus this is a Psi-Gish, but whatever

Yep, provided you don't have one of those old-school "the Paladin must fall and redeem himself" DMs, it's solid.

Tokuhara
2010-11-15, 05:01 PM
Yep, provided you don't have one of those old-school "the Paladin must fall and redeem himself" DMs, it's solid.

To go slightly outside of Core, picking up Knight Training fixes this handily

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 05:02 PM
Yep, provided you don't have one of those old-school "the Paladin must fall and redeem himself" DMs, it's solid.

Well, even if he does fall, most of his stuff is from the manifesting class, so his saves just take a hit, he can't heal 2xCha hp a day, he loses his one smite a day(not much of a loss, I must admit), and no longer has a moderate good radiation giving others cancer, but he can still slice and dice and use his brain to make people's heads asplode.

Amphetryon
2010-11-15, 05:07 PM
To go slightly outside of Core, picking up Knight Training fixes this handily

Knight Training doesn't prevent falling, except for the multi-classing. I'm talking about the DM making a "fall and redemption, Blackguard, or Fighter without bonus feats" part of every game featuring a Paladin.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 05:09 PM
Knight Training doesn't prevent falling, except for the multi-classing. I'm talking about the DM making a "fall and redemption, Blackguard, or Fighter without bonus feats" part of every game featuring a Paladin.

Doesn't matter to the Pally gish though, as the casting is not tied to the Paladinhood. :smallbiggrin:

If the DM is the type who'll violate the rules to take away your casting along with your paladinhood, then he's much, much worse than a DM who gets off on forcing paladins to run around as fighters without bonus feats to redeem themselves in his eyes.

Doug Lampert
2010-11-15, 05:13 PM
I've always seen the Bard as a Rogue-Mage, not a Fighter-Mage :)

But he does a perfectly competent job as a fighter/mage.

He's even BETTER as a Rogue/mage, but you can build a quite nice fighter/mage on the core bard chasis compared to other core fighter/mages.

Bard performs (Orate or Sing) to inspire courage and attacks at +19/+14/+9 for +4 damage, to the core only fighter's +22/+17/+12/+7 for +4 damage.

He's given up 3 points of attack bonus and the fourth itterative but otherwise gets everything the fighter gets from BAB and the weapon focus line. If he TAKES weapon focus then he's only down 2 points of attack bonus, and he can get that back by stacking Inspire Greatness with Inspire Courage (both last 5 rounds after he stops, so he can keep them both up if he really cares).

And the bard ALSO gives +4 attack and damage to the rest of the group.

Then you can buff with, you know, actual spells. Which the bard gets. He can cast while in light armor (which other core arcane gishes have real trouble with), and given his ability to Cat's Grace his own Dex he probably doesn't WANT anything heavier than Mithral Breastplate + shield anyway.

DougL

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 05:22 PM
But he does a perfectly competent job as a fighter/mage.

He's even BETTER as a Rogue/mage, but you can build a quite nice fighter/mage on the core bard chasis compared to other core fighter/mages.

Bard performs (Orate or Sing) to inspire courage and attacks at +19/+14/+9 for +4 damage, to the core only fighter's +22/+17/+12/+7 for +4 damage.

He's given up 3 points of attack bonus and the fourth itterative but otherwise gets everything the fighter gets from BAB and the weapon focus line. If he TAKES weapon focus then he's only down 2 points of attack bonus, and he can get that back by stacking Inspire Greatness with Inspire Courage (both last 5 rounds after he stops, so he can keep them both up if he really cares).

And the bard ALSO gives +4 attack and damage to the rest of the group.

Then you can buff with, you know, actual spells. Which the bard gets. He can cast while in light armor (which other core arcane gishes have real trouble with), and given his ability to Cat's Grace his own Dex he probably doesn't WANT anything heavier than Mithral Breastplate + shield anyway.

DougL

The big thing about Bard is that IC is Morale-bonus, something you can also get from Greater Heroism. Which kinda makes the Perform redundant (though yes, GH has a short duration). So they don't really end up ahead of others that far ahead. He loses to Eldritch Knight by 3 spell levels and 1 BAB, and lacks most of the key spells (you won't find Greater Magic Weapon, Polymorph, Contingency, Teleport, etc. from their spell list).

He's definitely more of a skill monkey/caster with a sprinkling of warrior, than warrior/skill monkey/caster. In Core. Outsider Core, they get much better, of course, but that's not the point here. And really, that's how it should be; a Gish doesn't use the whole "skill monkey"-aspect all that much, so you're a Bard using 2/3rd of the Bard's abilities only. The biggest problem is really just the lack of Bard's buffy spells. Wizards aren't THAT good at buffing either but they have the few keys that gets the job done.

ericgrau
2010-11-15, 05:24 PM
Standard core gishes are also anything / wizard 1 or anything / sorcerer 1. The wand, staff, scrolls and 1st level spells (especially feather fall and rod-quickened true strike) are very handy. It's similar to getting a +20 in use magic device but you can pull it off with a low level full BAB class.

It's probably no coincidence the first combo gets you into arcane archer for range and the 2nd combo gets you into dragon disciple for melee. As much flak as they get as being poor choices for casters or for being worse than splatbook options, they're great for core gishes. Ya, arcane archer is made obsolete by a party caster who both buffs you with greater magic weapon and has simultaneously exhausted all alternatives to GMW (which would let you get buffed and benefit from AA), but that's far more rare in practice than theory. Still strictly better than both a cleric archer without DMM persist cheese and an unbuffed fighter archer. And dragon disciple is solid gold for melee; within core only a full caster could possibly complain. The gish potential is just icing.

I'm about to make an eldritch knight myself but I plan on making him more caster than beatstick. Really all the good beatstick buffs are low level and affordable on wands and scrolls so to EK just for them would be a waste. And in fact the DMG description of the EK is someone who switches back and forth between spell and sword, rather than someone who combines them in his sword swings.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 05:28 PM
Standard core gishes are also anything / wizard 1 or anything / sorcerer 1. The wand, staff, scrolls and 1st level spells (especially feather fall and rod-quickened true strike) are very handy. It's similar to getting a +20 in use magic device but you can pull it off with a low level full BAB class.

It's probably no coincidence the first combo gets you into arcane archer for range and the 2nd combo gets you into dragon disciple for melee. As much flak as they get as being poor choices for casters or for being worse than splatbook options they're great for core gishes. Ya, arcane archer is made obsolete by a party caster who both buffs you with greater magic weapon and has simultaneously exhausted all alternatives to GMW (which would let you get buffed and benefit from AA), but that's far more rare in practice than theory. Still strictly better than both a cleric archer without DMM persist cheese and an unbuffed fighter archer. And dragon disciple is solid gold for melee. The gish potential is just icing.

Dragon Disciple I'll give you in Core, but AA; Cleric has Greater Magic Weapon spell available. Just saying.

ericgrau
2010-11-15, 05:30 PM
Explained in the above. The chances of both having a party caster willing to buff and having no alternatives to GMW (or being willing to blow so many spell slots on both them and GMW) is quite rare in practice. Certainly much lower than 50% anyway. So at least most of the time AA is an option.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 05:32 PM
Explained in the above. The chances of both having a caster willing to buff and having no alternatives to GMW (or being willing to blow so many spell slots on both them and GMW) is quite rare in practice. Certainly far lower than 50% anyway. So at least some of the time AA is an option.

GMW should be the first option, not the last; it's the cheapest. If your party has any arcanist or a Cleric, you've got access to it and if not...well, play one 'cause you really make the party 100 times better since they can spend their resources more efficiently than on enhancement bonuses.

Non-casters can get a Pearl of Power for the caster if the spell slot is the issue. And Cleric Archer can buff himself is my point. You're either AA or Cleric; AA gets Enhancement from class, Cleric just casts GMW himself.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 05:33 PM
Wait, I thought the common consensus was that AA was obviated by a magic bow? :smallconfused:

Or is this in lieu of having a magic bow due to focusing on a magic melee weapon and having the AA shore up the ranged weakness?

ericgrau
2010-11-15, 05:34 PM
GMW should be the first option, not the last; it's the cheapest. If your party has any arcanist or a Cleric, you've got access to it and if not...well, play one 'cause you really make the party 100 times better since they can spend their resources more efficiently than on enhancement bonuses.

Non-casters can get a Pearl of Power for the caster if the spell slot is the issue. And Cleric Archer can buff himself is my point. You're either AA or Cleric; AA gets Enhancement from class, Cleric just casts GMW himself.

Self-buffing core clerics are worse than AA w/o DMM persist, because it takes precious combat actions to finally beat the AA. The infamous divine power, for example, is often worse than spending the round to attack. Or even when it is worth it, it is barely worth it and thus still almost the same as not casting it at all.

The way to combine AA with a magic weapon is to get a +1 bow with a lot of damage buffs instead of +X.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 05:34 PM
Self-buffing core clerics are worse than AA w/o DMM persist, because it takes precious combat actions to finally beat the AA. The infamous divine power, for example, is often worse than spending the round to attack.

Quicken Spell is Core. Cleric doesn't require anything but Divine Power to beat an AA so Quicken Divine Power and go to town. Next turn you can Quicken Divine Favor for good measure but that's not even necessary since AA doesn't have class features.

ericgrau
2010-11-15, 05:36 PM
Quicken divine power is a level 8 spell (or a ludicrously expensive metamagic rod to try to do it before level 15), and now you need to wait a round on your quicken divine favor. Assuming your group even plays to level 15+, by then your million buffs are extra vulnerable to dispel, greater dispel, disjunction, running out of spell slots, etc. Even if you have the advantage chances are at least 1-2 will get dispelled. All for a very minor, high level only, advantage when it does work.

All this is moot if he wants to play melee though. We're agreed on dragon disciple, at least for core melee anyway.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 05:43 PM
Quicken divine power is a level 8 spell, and now you need to wait a round on your quicken divine favor. Assuming your group even plays to level 15+, by then you are extra vulnerable to dispel, greater dispel, disjunction, running out of spell slots, etc. All for a very minor advantage when it does work.

Rod of Quicken does work too (and yes, I know it's expensive). It's worth noting that Arcane Archer doesn't pick up long before then either. You can't enter before level 8 and you get +3 on level 12. And honestly, on level 12 you're one BAB behind full due to the dip too. Cleric wins by just quickening Divine Favor (though yes, on 12 the extra iterative AA happens to get compared to Divine Powerless Cleric does tend to even it out).

You don't even NEED Divine Power to beat Arcane Archer before you lose 5th point of BAB on level 16 since AA is one BAB behind from the dip and has no class-based bonuses not obviated by Greater Magic Weapon (on level 12, both AA and GMW provide you with +3 weapons assuming you lack Strand of Prayer Beads; with Beads of Karma, Cleric is at +4 base weapon enhancement).


AA entry is late. AA lacks any relevant boosts to your overall combat efficiency. It's just a terrible class overall; might as well play a Cleric if that's the role you want to play.

Myth
2010-11-15, 08:13 PM
Wait why is there an argument that a Tier 1 class beats a very sub-par PrC?

grarrrg
2010-11-15, 10:26 PM
Wait why is there an argument that a Tier 1 class beats a very sub-par PrC?

Slow night?

We've already reached our weekly quota on Monk/ToB/Tier/Pala-Fall/etc... threads?
(and yes I know it's only Monday)

Because maybe, just maybe, if we all clap our hands, the sub-par PrC will somehow win and cancer will be cured, and everyone will win the lottery and...

Vaynor
2010-11-15, 10:31 PM
He can cast while in light armor (which other core arcane gishes have real trouble with), and given his ability to Cat's Grace his own Dex he probably doesn't WANT anything heavier than Mithral Breastplate + shield anyway.

Why? Somatic spell components aren't as widespread as you'd think, and still spell isn't that demanding on your spell level. It's perfectly reasonable to play a Fighter 1/Wizard X and simply forgo spells with somatic spell components, all the while enjoying your full-plate and greatsword.