PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Dungeoncrasher errata?



hisnamehere
2010-11-15, 12:16 AM
I love this alternate class package as much as the next CO-er, but is 4d6 + (2 x Str bonus) really the official dmg? That's huge at 2nd level. And 8d6 at 6th? Wow.

So, has there been any errata/updates on this? as it just seems like too much.

Also, is there any official rulings on what would happen if you preformed this maneuver without the alternate class ability? Like, half as much (2d6) maybe?

I guess I'd probably rule that the regular bull rush maneuver into the wall would cause 1d6, with Dungeon Crasher 2 granting 2d6, and 6th level granting 4d6 (all at + (2 x Str bonus)).

Comments?

Wreckingrocc
2010-11-15, 12:33 AM
I've seen it abused all too many times- I'm not a fan, personally. When you can do leagues more damage by pushing somebody into a wall than you can by bashing them with a giant hammer, something is wrong. Of course, I haven't looked into it too extensively - most of what I've seen have been in PbP applications and PvP arena builds. Still, it's troubling, and were I a DM I would probably nerf or remove the class entirely. Even the 2x Strength bonus seems slightly excessive, as there isn't anything else I can think of off the top of my head which can do that, and there probably isn't much if I'm just blanking.

Ziegander
2010-11-15, 12:33 AM
I have to ask: have you ever actually played as a PC or with another player that used Bull Rush on a regular basis?

Because, sure that seems like a lot of damage, but then Bull Rush requires a full round action, is all or nothing, and your enemies very often have the advantage over you. On top of all that you have to actually succeed by enough to push them into something AND you have to have something hard to push them into.

Let's just say Dungeoncrasher isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to pull off. I've had a DM houserule that you can push creatures into OTHER creatures or non-wall, hard surfaces to deal the damage, and even then it only came into play on roughly 50% of my bull rushes.

Temotei
2010-11-15, 02:46 AM
I have to ask: have you ever actually played as a PC or with another player that used Bull Rush on a regular basis?

Because, sure that seems like a lot of damage, but then Bull Rush requires a full round action, is all or nothing, and your enemies very often have the advantage over you. On top of all that you have to actually succeed by enough to push them into something AND you have to have something hard to push them into.

Let's just say Dungeoncrasher isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to pull off. I've had a DM houserule that you can push creatures into OTHER creatures or non-wall, hard surfaces to deal the damage, and even then it only came into play on roughly 50% of my bull rushes.

I believe the standard build involves flying and smashing enemies into the ground.

[Insert paragraph about how you should be happy the player isn't playing a wizard, cleric, sorcerer, favored soul, lightning warrior, etc. here.]

:smalltongue:

Mulletmanalive
2010-11-15, 12:18 PM
While it IS stupidly powerful compared to other non-TOB melee options, it's pretty hard to actually break. I always assumed it was picking people up and slamming the base of their skull into the wall...

The flying thing is cheesy and works the best. Personally though, i found it to be the most awesome when done with a spiked shield and that piercing weapon = bullrush feat from PHB2.

I don't allow it in my games, but that's because i use a retooled system and fighters don't need it to stay relevant.

Ziegander
2010-11-15, 12:33 PM
I believe the standard build involves flying and smashing enemies into the ground.

Okay, sure, but this assumes that you always get Boots of Flying in game. And even with such a "standard" build it's far from easy to pull off. Even with the boots the only way this tactic is great is against medium sized enemies who also cannot fly. Aka cripples. Against flying creatures you're just as screwed as ever, and depending on the size and reach of a nonflying creature you have to push it farther to get it to hit the ground (a Titan for example requires you to push it at least 15ft before it hits the round - that means you have to beat the Titan's d20+44 check by 10).


While it IS stupidly powerful compared to other non-TOB melee options

Have you ever heard of Power Attack? Pounce? Seriously, Dungeoncrasher is just a cool thing to try out. It's NOT overpowered, or stupidly powerful or anything like that. It makes Bull Rush actually useable, kind of. It does not make other non-Dungeoncrasher, non-ToB melee characters leave the gametable crying.

Pechvarry
2010-11-15, 01:29 PM
It's silly to ban Dungeoncrasher because of one instance (fliers who bull rush into the ground). Just rule you can't do that and you're fine. The damage only looks scary. 8d6 + 2x STR with a decent chance of failure and inability to use it against targets too big or too strong, vs a level 6 barbarian leap attack, pouncing charging 2 attacks... yeah, Dungeoncrasher isn't an issue.

Mulletmanalive
2010-11-15, 02:03 PM
Have you ever heard of Power Attack? Pounce? Seriously, Dungeoncrasher is just a cool thing to try out. It's NOT overpowered, or stupidly powerful or anything like that. It makes Bull Rush actually useable, kind of. It does not make other non-Dungeoncrasher, non-ToB melee characters leave the gametable crying.

I wasn't saying that, just that i have been in brawls [bartending in the wrong pubs] and i've played rugby and american football and being taken down doesn't hurt THAT much.

Not compared to blows with a bokken [damn near lost a finger] anyway.

Hence, if you want realism, Dungeoncrasher is silly powerful for what it's supposed to be.

I did go on to say that i'm not averse to it but don't allow it in my home system because it's silly compared to the baseline.

Ziegander
2010-11-15, 03:15 PM
It's silly to ban Dungeoncrasher because of one instance (fliers who bull rush into the ground). Just rule you can't do that and you're fine.

Again, explain to me how using Dungeoncrasher with Boots of Flying is overpowered compared to other options at that level. There are several other easier and more powerful ways for 6th level characters to deal damage, even compared to the flying Dungeoncrasher.

EDIT: Now, I will give it to you that at 2nd level, 4d6+2x Str is pretty darned solid, and at that level fighting medium, non-flying humanoids is a lot more common than it is at 6th level, so with 18 Str and Improved Bull Rush, your d20+10 will have a good chance to beat the opponent by 5 or more, but even then you're not getting any guarantees to slam them into anything. Certainly you're probably splatting people when you do, but then again... just hitting someone with a Greatsword and using Martial Stance to chill out in Punishing Stance is 3d6+6 damage (before Power Attack). That route requires the same exact feat investiture and doesn't require special circumstances or a full round action.

@Mulletmanalive: In fairness I quoted you literally saying that it was stupidly powerful. I agree that it's not realistic, but it's definitely not overpowered in any sense of the word.

To anyone who thinks it's too powerful, please, use it in an actual campaign. Even if the ONLY enemies in the campaign are medium humanoid NPCs you'll find that it's still only okay. Wasting actions, which you'll do a lot, is NOT fun or effective.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-15, 03:24 PM
I wasn't saying that, just that i have been in brawls [bartending in the wrong pubs] and i've played rugby and american football and being taken down doesn't hurt THAT much.

Have you been beaten with a giant hammer INTO a wall?

By someone that isn't a 1st level commoner?

There's a difference between being bull rushed into a wall and being slammed into it by the momentum of a swing by a strong man with a big weapon (fists included) who is trained to make the most of you hitting that wall. That wall is his weapon.

He is the master of hitting people into walls. You want to learn the art of hitting people into walls, you talk to him. He will tell you to envision any hard surface as a giant hammer. You just use it the other way around (hitting it with people, rather than hitting people with it.)

Zen and the art of bashing people's heads into walls. That is the Dungeoncrasher.

Vaynor
2010-11-15, 03:28 PM
The Red Towel: This belongs in Roleplaying. Moved.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-15, 03:38 PM
Dungeoncrasher gains its real strength when you tack it on a Goliath with Knockback and Shocktrooper. All of a sudden your bull rush triggers automatically off your full PA charge, has a massive bonus, and can be directed diagonally to more easily hit a surface. To be honest, even if you don't end up hitting someone into the wall and triggering dungeoncrasher, sending your foes flying is an awesome image.

subject42
2010-11-15, 04:16 PM
Personally though, i found it to be the most awesome when done with a spiked shield and that piercing weapon = bullrush feat from PHB2.

Mother of god. What's the name of that feat? I must go crack open that book and find it.

Urpriest
2010-11-15, 04:22 PM
Okay, sure, but this assumes that you always get Boots of Flying in game. And even with such a "standard" build it's far from easy to pull off. Even with the boots the only way this tactic is great is against medium sized enemies who also cannot fly. Aka cripples. Against flying creatures you're just as screwed as ever, and depending on the size and reach of a nonflying creature you have to push it farther to get it to hit the ground (a Titan for example requires you to push it at least 15ft before it hits the round - that means you have to beat the Titan's d20+44 check by 10).


Given that most of the time a character is in contact with a surface if any part of the character's space is this seems pretty damn silly. Is there anywhere it says that you have to push an enemy through their own space in order to get them to hit the floor? Especially since, y'know, you can't push them through their own space in the first place?

Mulletmanalive
2010-11-15, 05:06 PM
Simply to respond, no, i've never been bashed into a wall by someone the size of Andre the Giant wielding a sledgehammer. I'd be dead if i was.

I had not included that in my assessment, not that being hit into a wall aught to make all that much difference anywhere OTHER than the point of impact [the transfer is greater because of the contained reaction but the actual impact on the wall is kind of meaningless], primarily because i always forget about the Knockback feat: it's meaningless unless you're playing a Powerful Build character and i've never actually played alongside one...

For the chap who was wondering, the Spiked Shield thing requires Driving Attack and is hillarious.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 05:10 PM
For the chap who was wondering, the Spiked Shield thing requires Driving Attack and is hillarious.

But is also 4 feats long. :smallyuk:

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 05:12 PM
There's always Knockback...

The Glyphstone
2010-11-15, 05:13 PM
He is the master of hitting people into walls. You want to learn the art of hitting people into walls, you talk to him. He will tell you to envision any hard surface as a giant hammer. You just use it the other way around (hitting it with people, rather than hitting people with it.)

Zen and the art of bashing people's heads into walls. That is the Dungeoncrasher.


I need new sig material. If you don't mind, this will be it.

Thurbane
2010-11-15, 05:13 PM
But is also 4 feats long. :smallyuk:
Aren't people always complaining that Fighters don't have enough feats to spend their feats on? :smalltongue:

Keld Denar
2010-11-15, 05:16 PM
Its called Driving Attack, and its in PHBII. Requires Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) and THEN you can take Driving Attack.

Needs more Warblade...Full PA + Emerald Razor = going the distance. Make sure you do the bambino point before you wind up for extra style points.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 05:16 PM
Aren't people always complaining that Fighters don't have enough feats to spend their feats on? :smalltongue:

Getting your trick set up taking 4 feats and 8 levels is pretty pitiful by fighter standards. Usually by that point a fighter is pimping out his tripping or charging abilities rather than just getting his trick set up.

And detracts from taking the Fighter's 6th level class feature, Imperious Command.

I mean, Fighter's only 10 levels long despite the real capstone being at 9 with swift demoralization. Getting 80% of the way through the class before getting the trick set up is just silly compared to the usual 40-60%.




Have you been beaten with a giant hammer INTO a wall?

By someone that isn't a 1st level commoner?

There's a difference between being bull rushed into a wall and being slammed into it by the momentum of a swing by a strong man with a big weapon (fists included) who is trained to make the most of you hitting that wall. That wall is his weapon.

He is the master of hitting people into walls. You want to learn the art of hitting people into walls, you talk to him. He will tell you to envision any hard surface as a giant hammer. You just use it the other way around (hitting it with people, rather than hitting people with it.)

Zen and the art of bashing people's heads into walls. That is the Dungeoncrasher.

I need new sig material. If you don't mind, this will be it.

Dangit. Now I've got this running through my head ala Isaiah Mustafa.

Fax Celestis
2010-11-15, 06:17 PM
Bull Rush requires a full round action

...no, it doesn't.


Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Anyway, 8d6 seems like a lot, but consider the actual damage: 8d6 graphs as the following:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/8d6.png
Or a ~25% chance to deal 27-29 damage, ~50% chance to deal 23-33 damage.

Even in comparison of d6s, a TWF rogue in a flanking position is going to deal 2d4+6d6.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 06:28 PM
I don't see it as a big deal at all. Dealing hit point damage is a fairly weak way of dealing with threats. It merely offers a second option rather than "I charge and full power attack," which can technically do more damage especially at later levels. It's very strong at very low level, but later? Not really.

Lhurgyof
2010-11-15, 06:39 PM
I believe the standard build involves flying and smashing enemies into the ground.

[Insert paragraph about how you should be happy the player isn't playing a wizard, cleric, sorcerer, favored soul, lightning warrior, etc. here.]

:smalltongue:

Hey! It doesn't even get a familiar!
It's giving up almost all its power for sheer fluff!

Frosty
2010-11-15, 06:43 PM
Hey! It doesn't even get a familiar!
It's giving up almost all its power for sheer fluff!
Ahh...will this joke ever get old? :smallbiggrin:

BRC
2010-11-15, 07:55 PM
Heres the thing about Dungeoncrasher, yes it's alot of damage, but it requires you to
1: Bull-rush an enemy
2: Beat the enemy in a Bull Rush
and
3: Bull rush them into a Wall.

Part 1: Simple enough, you just Bull Rush them, provoking an AoO from anybody else nearbye (If you have Imp Bull Rush, which any self respecting Dungeoncrasher should)
Part 2: here's where it gets tricky. Lots of Monsters are tough to bull rush, Most monsters fall into the "Big Tough Thug" category, meaning they have a high strength score, they may be bigger than medium (Giving them a bonus), and they may have four or more legs (More bonus).
Part 3: Ignoring Dungeonbombing (Flying and bull rushing them into the floor), This is the really tricky part. You not only need to Win the strength check, you need to do it by 5 or more for every additional 5 feet you need to push them. Not a problem in your standard issue 10 foot corridor, but in wide open spaces there may be quite a lot of distance between you and the nearest wall like object, and enemies don't always hang around next to walls waiting for you to slam their faces into them. An enemy merely 15 feet away from a Wall would need you to beat their roll by 10 in order to Dungeoncrash them.

And, of course, don't forget what happens if you fail. You are now right next to a Monster which you haven't damaged (Maybe you shoved it a few feet), and your just sitting there waiting to be full attacked.

Finally, let's look at the damage you would deal, 4d6+strength, that's fairly hefty. A strength score of 18, you'd be looking at about 16 damage on average.

That same Strength Score and a Greatsword would get you 12 damage on Average, with a higher chance of success, works just as well on big enemies, can be used no matter how close the enemy is to a wall, and that's not counting weapon enhancements or power attack.

So yes, Dungeoncrashing is good, but I'm not sure it's broken, even with Dungeonbombing, considering that gaining flight can be decently expensive. I like it, but the image of the fighter grabbing an enemy by the head and slamming their face into a wall provides a nice variation from the endless rounds of "I Hit it with my Sword".

megabyter5
2010-11-15, 08:07 PM
Ahh...will this joke ever get old? :smallbiggrin:

It's legally required that in any topic where the Lightning Warrior is mentioned, there must be a use of the phrases "Doesn't even get a familiar" and "Sacrifices power for flavor", or any variation of said phrases. Failure to comply will result in not being mind-controlled and going back to your fun.

FMArthur
2010-11-15, 08:39 PM
Ahh...will this joke ever get old? :smallbiggrin:

Yes. :smallannoyed:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-15, 09:59 PM
*snip*Again, Dungeoncrashing really gets powerful when you add Knockback and Shocktrooper to it, for the following reasons:

(1) Most importantly, the bull rush becomes a *free attack* after your standard "hit with sword" routine. Free attack! Even if you only end up nudging the enemy five feet into an open space, hey, you still hit him in the face for good damage.

(2) You get +2 to your bull rush for every 1 you PA due to Knockback, and you're probably PAing for full due to ST, and you already qualify as large and have ++ strength and have Improved Bull Rush, meaning you're going to have a ridiculous bull rush modifier. Unless this thing is huge or lucky, he's getting smacked all the way across the sky, what does it mean? battlefield.

(3) You get to direct the bull rush diagonally for better aim at, say, trees in an open field.

All in all, Knockback does the heavy lifting here, but Dungeoncrasher adds that delicious damage at the end.

NineThePuma
2010-11-15, 10:03 PM
Where's Knockback and Shocktrooper from? Cause now I want to build a Goliath Dungeon Crasher XD

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-15, 10:10 PM
Splatbooks: Making melee fun again. Just be careful! This type of character may outshine other characters in combat in low-optimization groups, decreasing the overall fun. And the fun is what we're after!

Shock Trooper is from Complete Warrior (p 112), and Knockback is from Races of Stone (p 142). One might also be interested in a level of Barbarian for Lion Spiritual Totem (Complete Champion) and Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed Arcana, SRD) to add to the fun when charging. Splashing Tome of Battle for charge-related maneuvers (yay, ignoring AoOs!) and defensive boosts is also recommended.

NineThePuma
2010-11-15, 10:13 PM
Heheheheheheh... The world won't know what ate them...

*Tower of Evilness targeted for dungeon crashy goodness*

Ziegander
2010-11-15, 10:59 PM
Given that most of the time a character is in contact with a surface if any part of the character's space is this seems pretty damn silly. Is there anywhere it says that you have to push an enemy through their own space in order to get them to hit the floor? Especially since, y'know, you can't push them through their own space in the first place?

Good luck getting your DM to accept that by pushing the 30ft tall Titan 5ft down you've succeeded in Bull Rushing it into the ground.

@Fax: Yes, the actual Bull Rush check requires only a standard action, but moving them more than 5ft requires a full round action, and since that's the most relevant part of the conversation, bull rushing them into a wall or into the ground, and that usually requires you move the foe more than 5ft, I tend to treat Bull Rushing as a full round action.

And in reviewing the Bull Rush mechanics, I forgot that you can't even Bull Rush things that are more than one size category larger than you. So, Dungeoncrasher is not only very difficult to pull off, but it's even more situational than I'd remembered.

Frosty
2010-11-15, 11:10 PM
Really? It's a full round action? But you get to move *to* your target as part of the action right?

The Glyphstone
2010-11-15, 11:14 PM
Knockback actually solves that problem (the full-round action thing), though it's an additional feat and requires you to be either a Goliath or Half-Giant, or an actual Large race.

Fax Celestis
2010-11-15, 11:15 PM
@Fax: Yes, the actual Bull Rush check requires only a standard action, but moving them more than 5ft requires a full round action, and since that's the most relevant part of the conversation, bull rushing them into a wall or into the ground, and that usually requires you move the foe more than 5ft, I tend to treat Bull Rushing as a full round action.


Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Initiating a Bull Rush

First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)

Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bull Rush Results

If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.
Your normal movement limit is twice your land speed, or two move actions. If you take a move up to someone, and then standard action bull rush them, you can still move with them.

Ziegander
2010-11-15, 11:40 PM
Your normal movement limit is twice your land speed, or two move actions.

I'm sorry, but since when?


If you take a move up to someone, and then standard action bull rush them, you can still move with them. you have any of your movement left up to your speed for whatever movement type you happen to be using.


Move Action
A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Move Actions.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

Charging is specifically outlined as a special action that allows you to move up to double your speed, and you'll find that nowhere in the rules does it define your speed limit as double your land speed. Moving double your speed is only possible by spending your standard action to move up to your speed a second time, OR as part of a special action. Hence, if you've moved your speed, and then you spend a standard action to Bull Rush a foe, you don't get some special exception that allows you to move farther than your normal speed would allow. Unless you charge and Bull Rush of course, but that's a different, even more situational, story.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 11:47 PM
@Fax: Yes, the actual Bull Rush check requires only a standard action, but moving them more than 5ft requires a full round action, and since that's the most relevant part of the conversation, bull rushing them into a wall or into the ground, and that usually requires you move the foe more than 5ft, I tend to treat Bull Rushing as a full round action.

More like your movement for the bullrushing is part of the action of the bull-rush, you just can't exceed your move speed.


And in reviewing the Bull Rush mechanics, I forgot that you can't even Bull Rush things that are more than one size category larger than you. So, Dungeoncrasher is not only very difficult to pull off, but it's even more situational than I'd remembered.

You have to have some way of getting big as a melee type anyway as you start to get up in levels. But, yes, is very situational. I've asked before how this very situational thing was sufficient to raise the fighter a tier, best answer I can figure was that fighter was on the high end of tier five and just needed a little push.

NineThePuma
2010-11-15, 11:49 PM
Zieg, you can swap a standard for a move. Presumably you started your bull rush while adjacent.

Ziegander
2010-11-15, 11:52 PM
Zieg, you can swap a standard for a move. Presumably you started your bull rush while adjacent.

Except that the Bull Rush itself costs the standard action you'd want to swap for that move. And even if it didn't trying to claim that because you can take two move actions in a round somehow means that your normal speed limit is equal to double your land speed is erroneous on several counts.

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 12:16 AM
Except that the Bull Rush itself costs the standard action you'd want to swap for that move. And even if it didn't trying to claim that because you can take two move actions in a round somehow means that your normal speed limit is equal to double your land speed is erroneous on several counts.

But where does it say you have to spend a move action in order to do that movement and that it's not covered by the action of the bull-rush (a standard action)?

Ziegander
2010-11-16, 12:22 AM
But where does it say you have to spend a move action in order to do that movement and that it's not covered by the action of the bull-rush (a standard action)?

Well, since it doesn't say that the Bull Rush grants you the ability to move up to your speed you don't magically get to infer that you can. However, since it does say that you can move with your foe up to your "normal speed limit" which is, as far as I can tell, an undefined rules term, technically you're right that it doesn't necessarily require a move action. I feel confident in going out on a limb and asserting that moving your "normal speed limit" requires a move action, but your mileage may vary.

Coidzor
2010-11-16, 12:32 AM
Well, since it doesn't say that the Bull Rush grants you the ability to move up to your speed you don't magically get to infer that you can. However, since it does say that you can move with your foe up to your "normal speed limit" which is, as far as I can tell, an undefined rules term, technically you're right that it doesn't necessarily require a move action. I feel confident in going out on a limb and asserting that moving your "normal speed limit" requires a move action, but your mileage may vary.

I'd say without further clarification, the only action specified is the standard action, nothing magical about it.

Ziegander
2010-11-16, 12:39 AM
I'd say without further clarification, the only action specified is the standard action, nothing magical about it.

Yeah, like I said, technically you're right to say that because of how unclearly written it is. I read it as working similar to Spring Attack, but there's no good way to define what they mean by "normal speed limit." I wonder if there's an FAQ on this...

EDIT: There's no FAQ... :smallfrown:

BridgeCity
2010-11-16, 01:34 AM
. . . Hence, if you want realism, Dungeoncrasher is silly powerful for what it's supposed to be . . .

Do you ban magic? Because magic isn't very realistic. Do you ban most of the abilitites from book of nine swords? Because they really aren't realistic either, and they can't hide behind the 'it's magic' excuse.

Seriously, banning something in D&D because it isn't realistic makes no sense. You'd be banning practically everything and playing a pretty bad escapist game.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-11-16, 02:05 AM
There's also the fact that it is going to be roughly as powerful as a well made (usual) power attacking fighter. It juts suffers the same apparent problem of being zomg borken by virtue of the fact of having a lower power floor than your bog standard core-only fighter.

faceroll
2010-11-16, 03:06 AM
Dungeoncrasher pushes rocket tag to lower levels. If you like doing so much damage that your DM arbitrarily bumps up the HP of monsters, go for it.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-16, 03:36 AM
Dungeoncrasher pushes rocket tag to lower levels. If you like doing so much damage that your DM arbitrarily bumps up the HP of monsters, go for it.Rocket tag was already alive and well. It only somewhat disappears in the mid levels (and then obviously reappears in high levels).

ffone
2010-11-16, 03:51 AM
re Dungeonbombing:

Is it possible to do this against a (prone) opponent by attacking them while in their space?

Come to think of it, can you Bull Rush someone if you're already in their space? the SRD doesn't seem to directly say it, but it does say you 'move into their space' when you begin the bull rush. And with Knockback, you could use an attack agaisnt them while grappling....can you choose the direction you bullrush them in that case? (Such as 'down' for Dungeonbombing)?

Fax Celestis
2010-11-16, 10:24 AM
nowhere in the rules does it define your speed limit as double your land speed

:smallconfused:


Speed

Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell. Your speed depends mostly on your race and what armor you’re wearing.

Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings have a speed of 20 feet (4 squares), or 15 feet (3 squares) when wearing medium or heavy armor (except for dwarves, who move 20 feet in any armor).

Humans, elves, half-elves, and half-orcs have a speed of 30 feet (6 squares), or 20 feet (4 squares) in medium or heavy armor.

If you use two move actions in a round (sometimes called a "double move" action), you can move up to double your speed. If you spend the entire round to run all out, you can move up to quadruple your speed (or triple if you are in heavy armor).


Bull Rush Results

If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

By your reading, if I take a move action to move 30' up to an opponent, then take a standard to push him...I can't, since I have to move 5' into his space to initiate the bull rush. Which isn't how it works, because the bull rush action specifies moving into your opponent's space as part of the standard action.

By your reading, if I take a move action to move 25' up to an opponent, then take a standard to push him and fail...I can't, since I have to move 5' into his space to initiate the bull rush, then 5' back into my original square because I failed. Which isn't how it works, because the bull rush action specifies moving back into your originating space as part of the standard action.

By your reading, if I take a standard to push an opponent, I have to spend my move action to push him further than 5'. Which isn't how it works, because the bull rush action specifies moving up to your speed as part of the standard action used to initiate the bull rush.

Rules of the Game: All About Movement (Pt. 2) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040618a) disagrees with you:

Bull Rush: As a standard action, you move up to your speed. To perform the bull rush you must move into your opponent's space at some point during your move. If you wish to push your opponent back more than 5 feet, you must have some movement left when you enter you opponent's space (see the bull rush description on page 154 of the Player's Handbook).

You can bull rush as part of a charge. If you do, you perform the bull rush instead of attacking your foe and you get a +2 bonus on your Strength check (see page 155 in the Player's Handbook).

Person_Man
2010-11-16, 10:45 AM
We've riffed on this a bunch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) of times (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248). It's quite easy to get lots of free Bull Rush attempts every round, to make your Bull Rush check very high, and to add free movement so that you can "follow up" on your enemy when you push them back so that you can finish your full attack. It's really quite fun, even without Dungeoncrasher.

No, it has not been updated. And no, it shouldn't be. The Fighter is a very limited class. Don't take away one of his only toys.

Ziegander
2010-11-16, 11:59 AM
Fax, the fact that having the capability to move up to four times your speed in a turn with the run action doesn't define your "normal movement limit" as four times your speed, just as the fact that you can spend two actions per round to move up to your speed twice doesn't define your "normal movement limit" as twice your speed. That's what I'm saying, and what you keep arguing that you're right about.


By your reading, if I take a move action to move 30' up to an opponent, then take a standard to push him...I can't, since I have to move 5' into his space to initiate the bull rush. Which isn't how it works, because the bull rush action specifies moving into your opponent's space as part of the standard action.

By your reading, if I take a move action to move 25' up to an opponent, then take a standard to push him and fail...I can't, since I have to move 5' into his space to initiate the bull rush, then 5' back into my original square because I failed. Which isn't how it works, because the bull rush action specifies moving back into your originating space as part of the standard action.

By your reading, if I take a standard to push an opponent, I have to spend my move action to push him further than 5'. Which isn't how it works, because the bull rush action specifies moving up to your speed as part of the standard action used to initiate the bull rush.

Again, you're off about what I've been saying with all of these. The Bull Rush action explicitly includes moving 5ft into the opponent's square as part of the standard action, as well as explicitly including pushing the foe 5ft as part of the standard action. What it doesn't explicitly include is moving in excess of your speed as part of that standard action. The phrase, "You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit," is ambiguous as it's a phrase that includes a term that as far as I know is never defined anywhere in the rules, and is never used anywhere else in the game.


Rules of the Game: All About Movement (Pt. 2) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040618a) disagrees with you:

This is interesting, and a nice find. The sentence "As a standard action, you move up to your speed," seems to be very clear about this. However, Skip goes on to cloud the issue enough to leave me doubting how it works again when he says, "If you wish to push your opponent back more than 5 feet, you must have some movement left when you enter you opponent's space (see the bull rush description on page 154 of the Player's Handbook)." However, you win this round, because the first sentence should be good enough for most DMs. I just wish there had been better proofediting of 3.5 material.

ANYWAY, that just makes Bull Rush slightly less of a completely terrible tactic. Bull Rush is almost completely unusable, and even with optimization Dungeoncrasher simply makes it usable, not overpowered. The point remains that if you fail the Bull Rush or fail to push them far enough with it you've essentially wasted your turn.

Psyx
2010-11-16, 12:08 PM
I've had a DM houserule that you can push creatures into OTHER creatures or non-wall, hard surfaces to deal the damage

Even medium sized ones into other medium sized ones?

Because with a 5x5' space, I'd be wanting a reflex save or something if someone was being bullrushed into me...

hisnamehere
2010-11-18, 04:25 PM
Ziegander - That's a pretty liberal DM. As Psyx pointed out, that's a 5x5 space your bullrushing thru (i.e. a lot of empty space if occupied by only one medium-sized creature). Also, a creature (save a stone golem or earth elemental) is fairly squishy compared to a dungeon wall. As someone said before, being hit by a linebacker isn't lethal dmg, and definitely being hit by a person that a linebacker just tackled is even less lethal.
I've been convinced that Dungeoncrashing isn't grossly overpowered, but I'm still not going to rule that a creature counts as a wall (unless it's a stone golem).

Thanks all for the input and enlightenment.

Fax Celestis
2010-11-18, 05:22 PM
Ziegander - That's a pretty liberal DM. As Psyx pointed out, that's a 5x5 space your bullrushing thru (i.e. a lot of empty space if occupied by only one medium-sized creature). Also, a creature (save a stone golem or earth elemental) is fairly squishy compared to a dungeon wall. As someone said before, being hit by a linebacker isn't lethal dmg, and definitely being hit by a person that a linebacker just tackled is even less lethal.
I've been convinced that Dungeoncrashing isn't grossly overpowered, but I'm still not going to rule that a creature counts as a wall (unless it's a stone golem).

Thanks all for the input and enlightenment.

Well, also keep in mind that Domino Rush is included in the Shock Trooper feat:


Domino Rush: To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt that forces a foe into the same square as another foe. You may make a free trip attempt against both foes at the same rime, and neither foe gets a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.