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Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 04:19 AM
Which of the ToB base classes best combines with Ruby Knight Vindicator and Paladin? I know Cleric is better then Paladin, but I want my full BaB dang it!

So far as I can tell Warblade is the best one, but I need someone with greater experience/knowledge of ToB to tell me/suggest ideas.

Fishy
2010-11-15, 04:41 AM
Warblade does have the best recovery mechanic, and some awesome disciplines: However, Ruby Knight Vindicator requires a Devoted Spirit stance and a Devoted Spirit Maneuver. That requires either a Crusader level or two feats- conventional wisdom holds that the Crusader dip is better, because you get 20 class levels to play with, but only 7 feats.

Paladin/Crusader/Knights are very cool, but be aware that full BAB isn't as good as Wizards thought it was when they were playtesting.

Godless_Paladin
2010-11-15, 04:44 AM
Why would you care about full BAB? You're talking about a +2 bonus to hit at level 10 versus, well, spellcasting.

Simba
2010-11-15, 04:52 AM
Why would you care about full BAB? You're talking about a +2 bonus to hit at level 10 versus, well, spellcasting.

And a Cleric can always buff himself to full BAB.

Godless_Paladin
2010-11-15, 04:56 AM
And a Cleric can always buff himself to full BAB.

Hell, when I'm making a melee cleric I, often as not, take Cloistered Cleric because free Knowledge Devotion + skills = better than a +1 to hit (because it's a +5 to hit and damage).

Greenish
2010-11-15, 06:25 AM
Why would you care about full BAB? You're talking about a +2 bonus to hit at level 10 versus, well, spellcasting.Cleric 4/crusader 1/RKV 5 only loses 1 BAB.

Synapse
2010-11-15, 06:29 AM
Warblade does have the best recovery mechanic, and some awesome disciplines: However, Ruby Knight Vindicator requires a Devoted Spirit stance and a Devoted Spirit Maneuver. That requires either a Crusader level or two feats- conventional wisdom holds that the Crusader dip is better, because you get 20 class levels to play with, but only 7 feats.

Paladin/Crusader/Knights are very cool, but be aware that full BAB isn't as good as Wizards thought it was when they were playtesting.

Warblade's recovery mechanic is the only that forbids him from using boosts, counters and switching stances. It's arguably the worst :p

Godless_Paladin
2010-11-15, 07:17 AM
Cleric 4/crusader 1/RKV 5 only loses 1 BAB.

Indeed. And it's actually much worse (for the Paladin) than that sounds. Look at what the Cleric got the one level she didn't get a +1 to hit from BAB. She got DOMAINS, not to mention a full caster level. That means that she's getting, at the very least, a +1 to hit from the War Domain. Or she could be getting a +3 to hit (or AC) from Law Devotion, or a +1-+5 to hit and damage from Knowledge Devotion, or whatever.

Why would you want BAB instead? :smallconfused:

Myth
2010-11-15, 08:47 AM
Which of the ToB base classes best combines with Ruby Knight Vindicator and Paladin? I know Cleric is better then Paladin, but I want my full BaB dang it!

So far as I can tell Warblade is the best one, but I need someone with greater experience/knowledge of ToB to tell me/suggest ideas.

Since you are freshly registered and may be suffering from the same delusions I once did prior to GitP opening my eyes - full BAB is overrated. 12 or 10 or even 8 HD are overrated. Armour proficiencies are overrated.

Wizards thought that a class that gets Heavy Armour, Full BAB and d10 is so damn strong it doesn't need any class features at all.

Then they made spells. Then they added more spells from extra books. Suddenly spells are to swinging a stick and clad in a rusty piece of tin as nukes are to well... swinging sticks and being clad in rusty tin cans.

Frosty
2010-11-15, 12:54 PM
Since you are freshly registered and may be suffering from the same delusions I once did prior to GitP opening my eyes - full BAB is overrated. 12 or 10 or even 8 HD are overrated. Armour proficiencies are overrated.

Wizards thought that a class that gets Heavy Armour, Full BAB and d10 is so damn strong it doesn't need any class features at all.

Then they made spells. Then they added more spells from extra books. Suddenly spells are to swinging a stick and clad in a rusty piece of tin as nukes are to well... swinging sticks and being clad in rusty tin cans.
Like me, yoi were once a BMX Bandit too?

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 01:32 PM
Oh I am well aware of the issues. However I am not giving up my wardog mount, so the spell thing is moot.

Besides, I have played something like 30 clerics in my life, I get bored with them.

Greenish
2010-11-15, 01:42 PM
However I am not giving up my wardog mount, so the spell thing is moot.You know you can buy those? :smallwink:

AtwasAwamps
2010-11-15, 01:55 PM
You know you can buy those? :smallwink:

But will they be from magical heavenland?

Khatoblepas
2010-11-15, 02:10 PM
Oh I am well aware of the issues. However I am not giving up my wardog mount, so the spell thing is moot.

Psssst. Hey bud. Now you can have your cake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) and eat it.

All the goodness of Paladin with none of the empty calories. And only one lost spell level! Get Paladin spells, get Battle Blessing, get equipped with Prestige Paladin! Ruby Knight Vindicator doesn't progress your mount, and now you don't need to worry about it, you can have the spells and a mount! Yes, for the cost of one feat and one caster level, you too can have the opportunity to smite the wicked and be the most pious you can be, without wasting levels doing it! Cast Silverbeard without losing out on Righteous Might! Divine Power your way to the top! Heal your mount with Heal Mount in one swift action!

There are some things GP can't buy.

For everything else, there's Prestige Paladin.

Greenish
2010-11-15, 02:14 PM
And only one lost spell level! Get Paladin spells, get Battle BlessingQualifying for Battle Blessing requires paladin 4, and thus loses two caster levels.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-15, 02:22 PM
Qualifying for Battle Blessing requires paladin 4, and thus loses two caster levels.

Sword of the Arcane Order requires 4 Paladin levels, so if you want full wizard casting with your cleric and paladin casting you'd need that.

But Battle Blessing only requires the ability to cast paladin spells. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070504a&page=2)

Greenish
2010-11-15, 02:30 PM
Sword of the Arcane Order requires 4 Paladin levels, so if you want full wizard casting with your cleric and paladin casting you'd need that.

But Battle Blessing only requires the ability to cast paladin spells. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070504a&page=2)Right-o, my bad.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 02:34 PM
Crusader eh? Okay, thank you, question answered.

Now how do I make a Jade Phoenix Mage Bard?

Akal Saris
2010-11-15, 03:11 PM
Human Bard 1/Warblade 9/Sublime Chord 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Gets: BAB +18, 8th level bard/wiz/sorcerer spells, IL 18
Special: Able Learner is necessary at 1st to fulfill the skills requirements; Practiced Spellcaster at 12th is highly recommended.

Human Bard 4/Warblade 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5
Gets BAB +19, CL 19 (Abjurant Champion), 6th level bard spells, IL 15

Special: with the 2-feat chain from Cityscape, you could raise your Concentration to 9 ranks at level 5, and have this build:
Human Bard 4/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5
Gets BAB +19, CL 19 (Abjurant Champion), 6th level bard spells, IL 15

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 03:15 PM
Human Bard 1/Warblade 9/Sublime Chord 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Gets: BAB +18, 8th level bard/wiz/sorcerer spells

Human Bard 4/Warblade 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5
Gets BAB +19, CL 19 (Abjurant Champion), 6th level bard spells

I rather like the first one.

Optimator
2010-11-15, 03:19 PM
You know, I find using Paladin for RKV and using Battle Blessing to apply a generous amount of buff spells (of which there is a decent chunk as long as the SpC is in play. If ToB is around, SpC probably is allowed too) can be a very fun and gratifying build, at least at higher levels when Paladins actually get decent spells and a decent number of them. Obviously it isn't nearly as good as cleric entry but it's very much playable. Certainly more fighter-y than caster-y, but some character concepts call for that and the build can hang.

Frosty
2010-11-15, 03:19 PM
Is Song of the White Raven anywhere in there?

Akal Saris
2010-11-15, 03:25 PM
Is Song of the White Raven anywhere in there?

I certainly would not make a bard/JPM without Song of the White Raven!

And I'm glad you like the build, Tvtyrant. What I like about the first build is that it emphasizes warblade for levels 1-10, when warblade is quite strong. Then, as casters begin to dominate gameplay, it switches to a more primary caster role. Plus, you're a good "party face" from 1-20 with Able Learner and at least a mediocre int score.

Khatoblepas
2010-11-15, 03:30 PM
I certainly would not make a bard/JPM without Song of the White Raven!

And I'm glad you like the build, Tvtyrant. What I like about the first build is that it emphasizes warblade for levels 1-10, when warblade is quite strong. Then, as casters begin to dominate gameplay, it switches to a more primary caster role. Plus, you're a good "party face" from 1-20 with Able Learner and at least a mediocre int score.

That would be awesome if it worked, but... how are you qualifying for Sublime Chord? It requires 3rd level spells. Precocious Apprentice + Illumian? Precocious Apprentice + Earth Spell + Heighten Spell / Sanctum Spell?

Keld Denar
2010-11-15, 03:37 PM
Here was my attempt at the build about 2 years ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70149) Its decent, but nothing to really write home about. Requires a lot of TU attempts and Pearls of Power to stay viable in muliple encounters per day, especially if you are using Divine Might + Divine Impetus a lot. Travel Devotion + Divine Impetus and Battle Blessing + Divine Impetus is pretty sweet.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 03:47 PM
Sword of the Arcane Order requires 4 Paladin levels, so if you want full wizard casting with your cleric and paladin casting you'd need that.

But Battle Blessing only requires the ability to cast paladin spells. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070504a&page=2)

Hmm. Is a bit tenuous whether a DM would allow Sword of the Arcane Order to work with that set up, especially since it's even slightly questionable in the SRD write-up whether you have to go all the way through the prestige class in order to unlock the spell list or not.

But if it flies, yes, that is very, very tasty.


But will they be from magical heavenland?

Go druid and you keep your souped up wardog 24/7, except it's actually better, and you can get a new one for free 24 hours after the last one died if it gets offed, all without taking any yearmonth-long penalties for losing your special little puppy dog.

Akal Saris
2010-11-15, 03:59 PM
That would be awesome if it worked, but... how are you qualifying for Sublime Chord? It requires 3rd level spells. Precocious Apprentice + Illumian? Precocious Apprentice + Earth Spell + Heighten Spell / Sanctum Spell?

Ah, my memory failed me - I thought sublime chord only required the ability to cast arcane spells. You could probably pull early req shenanigans to get in anyhow (Precocious Apprentice + Any Metamagic + Versatile Spellcaster might be the best method), but it would take several feats to do so.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 04:04 PM
But if I was going to play a melee Druid gish, I would play... A straight Druid. Seriously, no turn attempts so it wouldn't qualify without feats and the maneuvers are weaker then Dire Bear is anyway :P

The thing about a caster in this role is the caster is stronger or equal without the multi-classing, while the Paladin actually gets better with it. Though one day I want to use a level 10 Paladin and have the mount simply dominate all of the dogs and wolves in the world till I have a gigantic army of them.

Coidzor
2010-11-15, 04:53 PM
But if I was going to play a melee Druid gish, I would play... A straight Druid. Seriously, no turn attempts so it wouldn't qualify without feats and the maneuvers are weaker then Dire Bear is anyway.

Well, I was talking about a dip, Or even a level of beastmaster, actually, since the build would have space for a single level to be devoted to the mount. Get you your animal faster and better without as much investment of levels and with more room for maneuvers and such.


The thing about a caster in this role is the caster is stronger or equal without the multi-classing, while the Paladin actually gets better with it. Though one day I want to use a level 10 Paladin and have the mount simply dominate all of the dogs and wolves in the world till I have a gigantic army of them.
Tangent:
Gotta have eleven effective levels of paladin for your mount to command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm)creatures of its kind.


Command (Sp)

Once per day per two paladin levels of its master, a mount can use this ability to command other any normal animal of approximately the same kind as itself (for warhorses and warponies, this category includes donkeys, mules, and ponies), as long as the target creature has fewer Hit Dice than the mount. This ability functions like the command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm)spell, but the mount must make a DC 21 Concentration check to succeed if itís being ridden at the time. If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mountís daily uses. Each target may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + Ĺ paladinís level + paladinís Cha modifier) to negate the effect.
Also, it's a temporary spell that issues a single command and so wouldn't actually get you them as minions, though it could buy you the time with which to tame them. Of course, a gigantic army is always of... questionable utility. Wild Empathy + Handle Animal would be more straight forward and synergize with natural bond and beastmaster for buffing the companion animal. And you'd have to use handle animal on 'em anyway, you'd get them added to your ranks in groups of 3 without houseruling.

So that's 11 levels to do something which isn't what you think it is. When a druid or ranger just would need to make 2 DC 15 checks to get most animals that aren't out and out hostile tamed and trainable. 2nd level druid/ranger with max ranks in handle animal and a 12 charisma has 2 levels + 2 synergy from handle animal + 1 Cha, so enough to get a wild animal up to friendly or domesticated animal to like you by taking 10.
tl;dr Paladin has to be 11th level to command creatures of the kind of its mount and command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm)doesn't really work as you described.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 07:12 PM
I knew about the 11 levels of Paladin, did not realize they meant the spell command when they said command (was thinking dominate). Teh suck.

Does Beastmaster give you turn or are is it just meant to be a dip?