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View Full Version : At what lvl do CR 20 fall? (3.5)



Adamaro
2010-11-15, 06:51 AM
At what lvls can PC-s usually take down monsters like balor, pit fiend, solar, titan or tarrasque? I was thinking lvl 14?

Yora
2010-11-15, 07:00 AM
Depends on the group. Four batman wizards will be in a completely different league than a fighter, a rogue, a druid, and a bard.

LordBlades
2010-11-15, 07:01 AM
At what lvls can PC-s usually take down monsters like balor, pit fiend, solar, titan or tarrasque? I was thinking lvl 14?

It all depends on your party's level of optimization.

Pun pun can do it at lvl 1.

An optimzied party can probably do it around lvl 10-11 or even lower, depending on resources.

An unoptimized party might struggle with it at lvl 20.

Eldan
2010-11-15, 07:08 AM
It also depends on the monster. Against nonevil groups, the Balor has good chances just spamming blasphemy. The Tarrasque on the other hand, has problems with grease and is helpless against anyone able to fly, so it can be taken down by overland flight and a few wands.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-15, 07:12 AM
Pun pun can do it at lvl 1.

If i recall the pun-pun build actually matures around level 3.

But in addition to what they said. How the DM plays the monster matters too. I'll use a completely plagerized example from another thread.

A Solar has like a 20 int and permanency at will and all of the symbols at will. So any time you fight one you should immediatly have to make like 8 saving throws or suck hard.

Also see Tuckers Kobolds and modify to use Pit Fiends.

Finally it's completely a judgement call there are a lot of variables regaurding group composition, player skill, environment, spells prepared, suprise round, how the beastie plays, player magic items and immunities, ect. An experienced DM at the table is really the only one how can know what a group can take at what level.

Eldan
2010-11-15, 07:14 AM
Actually, the "best" Pun-pun does it at level one by being a Paladin, summoning Pazuzu and asking for a candle of invocation.

Runestar
2010-11-15, 07:14 AM
From experience, the party can take down a tarrasque from as early as lv14, assuming they have some way of casting wish or miracle afterwards. The crux is hitting it with a heightened slow to limit it to 1 attack each round, then just whack away.

The rest are trickier because of their array of SLAs.

A balor can apparently be taken on at lv16 with a fair chance of success.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050809a

Probably same for pit fiend as well, assuming ample time for preparation (such as pre-buffing to defend against their more dangerous attacks).

Titan is trickier. Maybe lv17.

Solar's main problem would be bypassing its regen. Who in their right mind brings unholy weapons? (This was a problem for my good party in "Bastion of lost souls". :smalltongue:

Killer Angel
2010-11-15, 07:24 AM
Depends on the group. Four batman wizards will be in a completely different league than a fighter, a rogue, a druid, and a bard.

I hope you're not implying that the druid is on the same level of the fighter-bard-rogue... :smallamused:

LordBlades
2010-11-15, 07:30 AM
From experience, the party can take down a tarrasque from as early as lv14, assuming they have some way of casting wish or miracle afterwards. The crux is hitting it with a heightened slow to limit it to 1 attack each round, then just whack away.



Tarrasque can't fly. So the level to kill it is the minimum level at which you can fly, overcome it's renegartion and get your hands on a scroll of wish/miracle/gate

Jack_Simth
2010-11-15, 07:34 AM
Tarrasque can't fly. So the level to kill it is the minimum level at which you can fly, overcome it's renegartion and get your hands on a scroll of wish/miracle/gateAnd you can overcome it's DR with a +4 Bane (Magical Beasts) bow.

Assuming, that is, you can arrange to pass the DC... 58 Knowledge(Arcana) check to get one useful piece of information about the beast. +5 per each additional piece of useful information you need.

LordBlades
2010-11-15, 07:49 AM
And you can overcome it's DR with a +4 Bane (Magical Beasts) bow.

Assuming, that is, you can arrange to pass the DC... 58 Knowledge(Arcana) check to get one useful piece of information about the beast. +5 per each additional piece of useful information you need.

I think I've misphrased that. By 'overcoming DR' I meant being able to do damage to it. for that you need over 15 damage per attack. As long as your party deals more than 40 damage/round over DR, the Hp of the tarrasque will be dropping. And you have plenty of time, it's not like it can reach you.

Also, for the Knowledge (arcana) check, you can buy a scroll of Contact other Plane and ask questions.

Alternatively, you can just get an allip since the tarrasque can't hurt it, and is not immune to ability drain.

Runestar
2010-11-15, 07:53 AM
Tarrasque can't fly. So the level to kill it is the minimum level at which you can fly, overcome it's renegartion and get your hands on a scroll of wish/miracle/gate

I am referring to a core party, playing as wotc would probably envision it. I believe the party doesn't need to fly or abuse allips or whatever. The tarrasque is that pathetic, because it lacks any form of magical support, and dumb brutes are usually the easiest to overcome at this lv. :smallamused:

LordBlades
2010-11-15, 07:59 AM
I am referring to a core party, playing as wotc would probably envision it. I believe the party doesn't need to fly or abuse allips or whatever. The tarrasque is that pathetic, because it lacks any form of magical support, and dumb brutes are usually the easiest to overcome at this lv. :smallamused:

Indeed. Tarrasque is a dumb melee brute set in a CR range where power level is defined by what level of spells you can cast that's why it's a pretty bad monster on it's own.

Jack_Simth
2010-11-15, 08:01 AM
I think I've misphrased that. By 'overcoming DR' I meant being able to do damage to it. for that you need over 15 damage per attack. As long as your party deals more than 40 damage/round over DR, the Hp of the tarrasque will be dropping. And you have plenty of time, it's not like it can reach you.
OK, so how are you planning on doing this? I mean, barring metagaming and/or cheese. While the beast can't fly-fly, it's intelligent enough to grab rocks as improvised thrown weapons (Int-3, monkeys throw stuff, and monkeys are represented mechanically at Int-2 in D&D), and it is a surprisingly good jumper for having no ranks in Jump. This may not be as safe as you think.


Also, for the Knowledge (arcana) check, you can buy a scroll of Contact other Plane and ask questions.
Ah yes... on the percentile rolled secretly by the DM... that uses the same result whenever inquiring on similar topics... that gives one-word answers... that has a chance of lying to you ... and has a chance of leaving you almost-comatose for weeks on end. Besides: How do you know which questions to ask without metagaming?


Alternatively, you can just get an allip since the tarrasque can't hurt it, and is not immune to ability drain.
Again, assuming, you can arrange to pass the DC... 58 Knowledge(Arcana) check to get one useful piece of information about the beast. In this case, knowing that it is:
A) Subject to ability Drain
B) Can't hurt incorporeal critters (which is actually slightly subject to debate)

AllisterH
2010-11-15, 08:07 AM
It is highly dependant on the makeup of the party but also the makeup of the opposition.

For example, a level 20 fighter is supposedly CR 20 as is a level 20 druid...yeah, guess which one is easier to deal with..

Runestar
2010-11-15, 08:08 AM
That said, I find the tarrasque poorly designed. No one will ever want to engage in melee with it, because it can easily PA for 15, still hit on a 2 or better, and potentially 1-shot the fighter in a full-attack.

So its most dangerous weapon turns out to be its biggest liability. It is no fun for the players if they engage it in melee, and no fun for the tarrasque when the players opt to play safe and just hover out of range while blasting it with ranged attacks. Oh, and while the fighter fumes with impotent rage.

I would recommend the gargarth as a viable tarrasque replacement, in that it is more well-balanced as a melee foe. It has a few useful special attacks to start combat with (sonic scream, quickened prismatic spray) and action economy (can move and attack each player within reach, allowing it to spread out the damage, avoid 1-shotting anyone and still engage the entire party). All in all, it should offer a more satisfying experience for the players.:smallsmile:

LordBlades
2010-11-15, 08:22 AM
OK, so how are you planning on doing this? I mean, barring metagaming and/or cheese. While the beast can't fly-fly, it's intelligent enough to grab rocks as improvised thrown weapons (Int-3, monkeys throw stuff, and monkeys are represented mechanically at Int-2 in D&D), and it is a surprisingly good jumper for having no ranks in Jump. This may not be as safe as you think.

Fly out of max range increment for thrown rocks?



Ah yes... on the percentile rolled secretly by the DM... that uses the same result whenever inquiring on similar topics... that gives one-word answers... that has a chance of lying to you ... and has a chance of leaving you almost-comatose for weeks on end. Besides: How do you know which questions to ask without metagaming?)

An gray elf wizard with 20 starting int and a headband of int +2 can make the int check for contacting a greater deity by taking 10. then yous tart asking the obvious questions (can it fly? does it have an innate range attack? does it have any spell-like abilities). Then you proceeed to write on a sheet of paper all the mosnter immunities your char knows/can find out about and start asking: 'which is the first number on this sheet that corresponds to an immunity that the tarrasque posseses?' then second number and so on. at 88% chance of a correct answer, you will get a pretty accurate image of what a tarrasque can/can't do in no time.

Myth
2010-11-15, 08:56 AM
A Solar is CR23 not 20. It casts spells as a 20th level Cleric and on top of that it has great SLAs, not to mention beastly immunities, regen, DR and ability scores. Ain't no way your group of level 11 batmans is taking this down unless they are playing a RAW abuse TO party, like using Red Wizard to get CL255 or something. In a game with a DM who will allow practical optimization but no shenanigans the Solar will turn a party lacking full casting + 9th level spells into finger paint.

If you consider the possibility for a Soalr to take Epic Spellcasting things can get... nasty.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 09:06 AM
You don't even need to be able to get past the Tarrasque's regen. Kill somebody, raise an allip from his body, and have the allip attack the tarrasque. Even if you can't wish it dead, you can keep its ability scores at 0 and enjoy regenerating tarrasque steak.


that uses the same result whenever inquiring on similar topics
COP doesn't actually have that statement. So no, you may ask the same question and possibly get two different answers. You are free to houserule it the way you state, but don't pretend that's what the rules say.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 10:07 AM
You don't even need to be able to get past the Tarrasque's regen. Kill somebody, raise an allip from his body, and have the allip attack the tarrasque. Even if you can't wish it dead, you can keep its ability scores at 0 and enjoy regenerating tarrasque steak.

*Shrug* Assuming an Allip exists in the world, you can Scry an Allip, Command Undead an Allip, Teleport to Big T and let the Allip at 'em.

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-15, 10:34 AM
A handful of fairly low-level (11th) Warlocks could handle Mr T, provided they'd worked on their UMD to activate a scroll of Wish.

You'd need to do a minimum of combined 12D6 damage a round to whittle away it's hit points, which could be done by a couple of 'em flitting around under Fell Flight using Vitriolic Eldritch Spear. I'd be very slow, but it'd be safe. Ish. (I don't think you can throw improvised things 250' without feats and or abilities, can you?)

It's higher than I first thought when I started writing the post because I realised you need Vitriolic Blast to punch through the SR. But that does make it easier to break the UMD check, and with decieve item, you could probabyl do it automatcially.

AllisterH
2010-11-15, 11:19 AM
In conclusion, the problem is that the Tarrasque is a badly designed monster.

It is a monster where the spell assumption was based on the pre 3e view of magical spells....

grimbold
2010-11-15, 11:52 AM
It all depends on your party's level of optimization.

Pun pun can do it at lvl 1.

An optimzied party can probably do it around lvl 10-11 or even lower, depending on resources.

An unoptimized party might struggle with it at lvl 20.

pun pun hast to be lvl 6

also a level 12-15 group of a wizard, barbarian, rogue, and cleric can take out a CR 20 assuming theyre pretty well optimized. However they would be so beat up at the end they probs wouldnt survive a CR appropriate encounter

sonofzeal
2010-11-15, 11:59 AM
If i recall the pun-pun build actually matures around level 3.


pun pun hast to be lvl 6
Sorry, both wrong. The current best theoretical build is level 1, but requires substantial NPC involvement in the form of named, unique demons. The other method is at level 5. Specifically, Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3. There's never been a level 3 or a level 6 Pun-Pun that I've ever heard of.

grimbold
2010-11-15, 12:18 PM
right level 5
crap

The Glyphstone
2010-11-15, 01:01 PM
I think the original Pun-Pun was actually an Egoist 15.

sonofzeal
2010-11-15, 01:04 PM
I think the original Pun-Pun was actually an Egoist 15.
Druid, I believe, but I'm less sure here...

true_shinken
2010-11-15, 01:15 PM
Druid, I believe, but I'm less sure here...

It was Egoist.

Eldariel
2010-11-15, 02:29 PM
It was Egoist.

Aye, Metamorphic Transfer as I recall.

Runestar
2010-11-15, 04:32 PM
A handful of fairly low-level (11th) Warlocks could handle Mr T, provided they'd worked on their UMD to activate a scroll of Wish.

Or just spam baleful polymorph. Eventually, the tarrasque will fail its fort save and be turned into a fish, losing its regen and possibly suffocating to death. :smallsmile:

Myth
2010-11-15, 05:00 PM
Might be a tad hard to beat it's SR and then have it roll a 1 in the same instance though.

If you are planning to beat SR might as well cast Irresistible Dance with Arcane Reach. Hilarious.

Augmented Lurk
2010-11-15, 05:14 PM
The Tarrasque can hurt Allips. Incorporeal rules were revised in MM3 and clearly state that creatures which have attacks that count as magical for overcoming damage reduction do affect incorporeals normally. Also Eldritch Spear would just bounce harmlessly off of a Tarrasque's carapace.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-15, 06:04 PM
The Tarrasque can hurt Allips. Incorporeal rules were revised in MM3 and clearly state that creatures which have attacks that count as magical for overcoming damage reduction do affect incorporeals normally. Also Eldritch Spear would just bounce harmlessly off of a Tarrasque's carapace.
MM3 says that creatures that strike as magical weapons can damage an incorporeal.

The Tarrasque's strikes count as magical for purposes of overcoming DR. It does not say they count as magical for any other purpose.

Incorporeals do not have DR.

For this reason, the Tarrasque cannot damage an allip because its attacks are not flatly treated as magical, they are only treated as magical for purposes of overcoming DR.