Relationship Woes and Advice: Sweet Sixteen

[Ytaker]

"Girls like abusive guys" is not a useful stereotype. It's a gross misrepresentation of an entire sex. The most you can say is "girls like confident guys, abusive guys are often confident, and it can be hard to tell the difference between confident and abusive".

It's not just confidence, there are a host of attractive things associated with it, and while that stereotype is wrong for many women that doesn't mean it's not useful. I've already cited one time when it was useful helping a foreign friend pick a better boyfriend.


For starters, that wasn't the circumstance I was talking about. For seconds, it means she's not interested in you; deal with it. There's no problem, just a fact of life you need to live with.

Or you could flirt differently and make her interested in you. It's a rather depressing way to live your live, if you see women not being attracted to you as a fact of life to deal with.


I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

You mentioned that one of the reasons a girl might not like you is because you just aren't suited for her. If a lot of girls say the same you may worry that the problem is your personality. Aka that you are a nice guy. And so you can take steps to fix it.


Therefore you should trick her into going out with you, instead? :smallconfused: You can protect a friend as a friend. You don't have to be going out with her first.

Trick her. That is how you characterize a nice guy seducing a girl who is interested in bad boys.

No, I was saying the nice guys, because they are attracted to her, would prefer if she was going out with someone who's not a douche, such as themselves. You don't have a veto over her romantic choices, you can't do much to protect her simply as a friend.

[Coidzor]

:smallconfused: You can protect a friend as a friend.

Really? Funny, the message I always get is that you can't protect your friends.

[Serpentine]

From who? :smallconfused:
It's not just confidence, there are a host of attractive things associated with it, and while that stereotype is wrong for many women that doesn't mean it's not useful. I've already cited one time when it was useful helping a foreign friend pick a better boyfriend.Okay, so it's useful for offending someone into having a look at their own choices. That's one. By apparently spreading it about as an idea that has merit? It's utter bullcrap.

Or you could flirt differently and make her interested in you.Didn't I actually acknowledge something like that as an option? You can't MAKE someone be interested in you. Yes, trying tact can help, but that's different to what (iirc) I was talking about in that context which (again, iirc - it's been a while since I read it) was the whole "how do I stop from falling into the friend bin?" nonsense.

It's a rather depressing way to live your live, if you see women not being attracted to you as a fact of life to deal with.It is a fact of life you have to deal with. If you don't, you start walking down the road of stalkeryness.

You mentioned that one of the reasons a girl might not like you is because you just aren't suited for her. If a lot of girls say the same you may worry that the problem is your personality. Aka that you are a nice guy. And so you can take steps to fix it."Nice guy". A "nice guy" is different to a genuinely nice person.

Trick her. That is how you characterize a nice guy seducing a girl who is interested in bad boys. The way you've been putting it? Yes. Except with "nice guy" in quotation marks.

No, I was saying the nice guys, because they are attracted to her, would prefer if she was going out with someone who's not a douche, such as themselves. You don't have a veto over her romantic choices, you can't do much to protect her simply as a friend.So a guy should do everything he can to convince a girl to go out with them "for her own good"? Apparently she's incapable of making her own decisions? Well, some people are very bad at making good decisions. Declaring that you are their only choice is a terrible idea, though.

edit: An example of a "nice guy". (http://xkcd.com/513/)

[Coidzor]

From who? :smallconfused:

Thread in general when I've inquired as to what I could do in regards to abusive relationships I've encountered, or of even how to express to a friend concern that their relationship is taking a turn in that direction.

[Serpentine]

Well, make it "you shouldn't try to get into a relationship with someone just so you can "protect" them", or "you can protect them as well as a friend as a boyfriend".
Basically, you can advise and assist, but you can't make people's decisions for them. And justifying your excessive attempts to make someone go out with you with some desire to "protect" them, doesn't cut it.

[Ytaker]

Okay, so it's useful for offending someone into having a look at their own choices. That's one. By apparently spreading it about as an idea that has merit? It's utter bullcrap.

No, because it allowed her to analyse why she liked abusive boyfriends. See what characteristics they had that she enjoyed, and look for them in other people. She did, objectively, like abusive guys- she just, mostly, didn't like the abuse.


Didn't I actually acknowledge something like that as an option? You can't MAKE someone be interested in you. Yes, trying tact can help, but that's different to what (iirc) I was talking about in that context which (again, iirc - it's been a while since I read it) was the whole "how do I stop from falling into the friend bin?" nonsense.

Yeah, which is why I wasn't sure why you were opposed.

I'm using make as in, you do things which are likely to make them interested in you. By identifying the problem you're more likely to find a solution.


It is a fact of life you have to deal with. If you don't, you start walking down the road of stalkeryness.

That's a depressing view for guys. You have no hope, it's a fact of life, just accept that no one will ever love you.

Anyway, I have no intention of ever offering that advice to a guy, because it is a suicide inducing world view. There are choices other than stalking which can help a guy get a girl.


"Nice guy". A "nice guy" is different to a genuinely nice person.
The way you've been putting it? Yes. Except with "nice guy" in quotation marks.

Faithful, reliable, consistent, loyal, kind. That's what I mean by nice guy.


So a guy should do everything he can to convince a girl to go out with them "for her own good"? Apparently she's incapable of making her own decisions? Well, some people are very bad at making good decisions. Declaring that you are their only choice is a terrible idea, though.

I didn't declare that it was their only choice. You did. You're interpreting what I say in weird ways, implying that force is the only way to do stuff. There is also conversation, and friendship. I'm saying the nice guy will want to offer himself, due to a mix of actual care and desire.

The way it normally happens, he offers himself, she politely declines. Nice guy. Not a rude person.

She can make the decision, but there's 0% chance she'll chose the nice guy. The nice guy would prefer if that percentage was higher. Then she'll date an ex boyfriend who cheated on her again. I've seen this more than once.

[Serpentine]

No, because it allowed her to analyse why she liked abusive boyfriends. See what characteristics they had that she enjoyed, and look for them in other people. She did, objectively, like abusive guys- she just, mostly, didn't like the abuse.You're still not telling me that you don't think this stereotype has merit. That is what I originally assumed, but you have actually started convincing me otherwise. Could you please just flat-out tell me that you don't think a majority of girls "like abusive guys"?

That's a depressing view for guys. You have no hope, it's a fact of life, just accept that no one will ever love you.No. "This particular girl doesn't love you. Analyze whether there's something about yourself that you can improve on or whether it's just a matter of incompatibility or other circumstances, and move on."

Faithful, reliable, consistent, loyal, kind. That's what I mean by nice guy.So girls don't like you because you're faithful, reliable, consistent, loyal and kind, and so you should change that? No, girls don't like "nice guys" who are yes-men, cowtowers, spineless and/or the sort of person who calls themself a "nice guy" when they mean "someone who debases themself for a girl and expects her to fall madly in love with him in consequence".

The way it normally happens, he offers himself, she politely declines. Nice guy. Not a rude person.You've been talking about "he offers himself, she politely declines, he initiates an attack plan based on the belief that the problem is that she "likes abusive guys"".

She can make the decision, but there's 0% chance she'll chose the nice guy. The nice guy would prefer if that percentage was higher. Then she'll date an ex boyfriend who cheated on her again. I've seen this more than once.That's her decision. By all means, the guy should offer himself as an alternative if he's interested in her - a lack of decent guys taking an interest in her may contribute to her turning towards bastarts - but he needs to accept her decision.
Also, I find your statistic suspect at best.

[Eadin]

So, he's been online a few times
no response.
I don't think that's good

[Ytaker]

You're still not telling me that you don't think this stereotype has merit. That is what I originally assumed, but you have actually started convincing me otherwise. Could you please just flat-out tell me that you don't think a majority of girls "like abusive guys"?

No, I don't. Enough do though that it's generally worth checking out if a girl is one of the people who do.


No. "This particular girl doesn't love you. Analyze whether there's something about yourself that you can improve on or whether it's just a matter of incompatibility or other circumstances, and move on."

And in this case, a matter of incompatibility.


So girls don't like you because you're faithful, reliable, consistent, loyal and kind, and so you should change that? No, girls don't like "nice guys" who are yes-men, cowtowers, spineless and/or the sort of person who calls themself a "nice guy" when they mean "someone who debases themself for a girl and expects her to fall madly in love with him in consequence".

The problem is, faithful, reliable, consistent and kind is associated with those traits, just as abusive is associated with positive traits. Being kind means caring about her feelings, and not wanting to say no for fear you might hurt her feelings- that's one of the things you have to change.

To avoid being spineless, you have to be willing to hurt people when you stand up for yourself, throw people down who try to walk over you. That's another thing you have to learn to do.

We're generally talking about someone in the friend zone- someone who randomly defaced themselves wouldn't be there. They generally do lots of kind things with the hope it will influence the girl to love them, with zero effect, since being kind doesn't make someone love you. Are you speaking from experience, btw?


You've been talking about "he offers himself, she politely declines, he initiates an attack plan based on the belief that the problem is that she "likes abusive guys"".

Attack plan? No, he learns to say no to her, he flirts with other girls, that sort of stuff would be better. Where did I say you attack her?


That's her decision. By all means, the guy should offer himself as an alternative if he's interested in her - a lack of decent guys taking an interest in her may contribute to her turning towards bastarts - but he needs to accept her decision.
Also, I find your statistic suspect at best.

I never said it wasn't her decision.

I was trying to illustrate the guy's concerns. That with a girl he has no chance of romance, and wants a better chance at romance.

[Serpentine]

No, I don't. Enough do though that it's generally worth checking out if a girl is one of the people who do.Still not really helping your case :smallannoyed:

We're generally talking about someone in the friend zone- someone who randomly defaced themselves wouldn't be there.Ugh. I think you've already seen what I have to say about the so-called "friend zone" :smallyuk:
Are you speaking from experience, btw?No. The frustration over repeated discussions on this topic that lead me to make those posts.

Where did I say you attack her?Not literally attack her :smallconfused:

[Ytaker]

Still not really helping your case

I'm not making a case. I had a group of girl friends. They all dated the same guy. He'd date them, cheat on them, move to the next person. He had amazing presence, a cheeky smile, and when he broke up with them it was always their fault, by their own admission. And they never caught on. I'm saying that I've experienced stuff, a lot of people I've been with have experienced stuff and having some way to classify those experiences is helpful. Regardless of what we say, that happened.


Ugh. I think you've already seen what I have to say about the so-called "friend zone"

Oh, different friend zone. I meant, if someone defaced themselves they probably wouldn't be your friend. Defacing oneself is not friendly.


:smallyuk:No. The frustration over repeated discussions on this topic that lead me to make those posts.
Not literally attack her :smallconfused:

That's because it's a common issue. It does happen a lot.

Hyperbole makes these discussions difficult. Like, my hyperbole over the abusive guys thing. Just say what you mean.

[DeadManSleeping]

Girls who tend to default to abusive relationships usually have individual personality elements that cause this (or just bad luck). It is not in any way related to the lack of a Y chromosome. Males are as likely to tend towards unhealthy relationships and be taken advantage of as females are. It's not at all an issue of gender, and framing it as one is both unhelpful and promotes an unhealthy view of gender and sex in our society.

If you're having issues with finding a girl who likes a "nice guy", don't start acting like a jerk just to try and get girls (it doesn't work too well). Instead, take the following steps.
1. Actually be a nice guy. Not this guy (http://xkcd.com/513/) or anything like that.
2. Find girls who are in an emotionally healthy place.

That'll just about do it.

[Drascin]

1. Actually be a nice guy. Not this guy (http://xkcd.com/513/) or anything like that.

The good bit with this is that while it may not land you any more girls, making others happy tends to, in my experience, make you happier in turn. And hey, in the end, isn't being well-off with yourself what really matters? :smallbiggrin:

(Yes, speaking from experience here :smallwink:)

[Ytaker]

Girls who tend to default to abusive relationships usually have individual personality elements that cause this (or just bad luck). It is not in any way related to the lack of a Y chromosome. Males are as likely to tend towards unhealthy relationships and be taken advantage of as females are. It's not at all an issue of gender, and framing it as one is both unhelpful and promotes an unhealthy view of gender and sex in our society.

Or you could just have another stereotype- http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Love-Bitches-Relationship/dp/1580627560

We men tend to have different failings. Women have less problems getting guys, due to the whole testosterone thing, so far far fewer girls have a problem with being platonic friends- there are just too many men chasing anything with a skirt.

[skywalker]

skywalker

this pretty much summerises everything vital on the subject.

no matter how much you want to agonise over showing her how much you've grown/changed and miss her, the ball is firmly in her court on this one if she wants to re-establish contact. A facebook like is NOT contact. Unless she does re-establish contact, keep getting on with your life.

I think you may have misunderstood. I'm not even sure I particularly want to talk to her, show her how much I've grown/changed and miss her. I'm doing pretty well with the whole not speaking to her thing.

It's just that if she is gearing up to say "hey, let's talk" or something similar, I'd rather have a bit of advance knowledge so I don't freak out one way or the other. And if she isn't, and still doesn't want to talk to me, I don't think it's very nice to remind me that she exists, honestly. Not that I can do much about it, anyway.

It was more a question of "what could this mean?" not "Oh my God she's contacted me, I should tell her my life story?" Because obviously, that's not what it means. It's just hard to get to the bottom of unclear communication when there's not supposed to be any communication.

And I concur that it's NOT contact, but it's not "not contact" either. :smallconfused:

EDIT: @V We aren't. *shrug*

[Coidzor]

Why are you facebook friends then? :smallconfused:

[Tiger Duck]

So, he's been online a few times
no response.
I don't think that's good

That doesn't sound particularly good no, but ...

Are you sure he gets those messages when he's offline? he could be working with an older version of msn or a web messenger of sorts that doesn't get offline messages.

he might feel that it's been to long to just respond, and wants to respond interestingly. and falling in the trap of wanting to say the exact right thing.

He might had plans already and didn't want to to say no to you, and is now trying to get out of them.


or he could possibly not be all that interested in you :smallfrown:

[Demon 997]

So, he's been online a few times
no response.
I don't think that's good

That doesn't sound good. Could it be that he's just not dealing with it right now? How long has it been? Do you have the courage to just talk to him face to face?

Best of luck. *Hugs* :smallfrown:

[Lioness]

Or you could just have another stereotype- http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Love-Bitches-Relationship/dp/1580627560

We men tend to have different failings. Women have less problems getting guys, due to the whole testosterone thing, so far far fewer girls have a problem with being platonic friends- there are just too many men chasing anything with a skirt.

But in the end, it's a stereotype. A generalisation intended to help categorise and comprehend things in your mind.

Not everyone conforms to the stereotype. I'm of the opinion that, when you date, you shouldn't base your actions off of a stereotype, but rather, the personality, likes, and dislikes of the person you want to date.

Say you, as a guy, are compassionate, friendly, trusting, etc., but the girl you want likes guys who are aloof, assertive jerks. Don'tbecome a jerk just to get a chance at dating her. Eventually the facade will become apparent, and in the meantime, you've made yourself a jerk, which, while better in her eyes, isn't for a lot of people.

A lot of girls like guys who are assertive, strong, and independant. That doesn't mean you can't also be compassionate and friendly.

And if she says she's not interested...it means just that. She doesn't want to date you, for whatever reason. Maybe she doesn't like your personality. Maybe she doesn't think you're hot. Maybe she's just looking for another type of guy. Changing your personality and trying again doesn't give you a much better chance of success, especially if she's already given you a concrete "no".

[loopy]

A lot of girls like guys who are assertive, strong, and independant. That doesn't mean you can't also be compassionate and friendly.

Indeed. My friends often call me the 'nicest jerk they know'. I think they mean it as a positive, haha, but I really couldn't care less. Enjoy life enough and people tend to get drawn to you.

[Fax Celestis]

Incoming loldrama. Well, not lol as in funny, but lol as in omg wtf spqr that's a lot of words.

Lead-in: I have been talking with my sister in the past few days: she wants to see me for Christmas, but we were having trouble wrangling it so I could see her without seeing my parents. I suggested she comes to my grandparent-in-law's house for Christmas Eve.

Simultaneously, I am having an argument with my aunt.

Then, the following:

The definition of audacity is suggesting to your sister that you take her to your in-laws for Christmas Eve.Christmas Eve has always been a special night in our family and [your sister] will be spending it with her parents, her uncle and cousin and will not be attending [your wife's family's] festivities.

She is really hurting and repeatedly asks why we can't just call a Christmas truce so she can see you, because in her mind this year is "our year". Your sister doesn't need to be in this debacle.

You have chosen your new family and it is proper for you to spend time with them. You seem to detest the loving family of parents and grandparents who raised you. You grew up in a damned good family with lots of traditions ,good memories and love. You seem to forget those good times in the past as well as in the present. We did not push you away, you went where we can not go. I am sorry that our apologies are not adequate or up to your standards.
We have jumped through hoops to please you both and have had many good times with you and [your wife] over the last 6 years. Perhaps our assumptions that we had good times were wrong.

We have never treated [your wife] like dirt, thought of her as vile or have had needless hatred for either one of you. Your descriptions of this situation have become more and more inflated and preposterious to read. I am sorry that we did not perhaps teach you more about the importance of compassion and forgiveness when you were growing up. I hope you can do a better job raising your daughter..

We are still willing to disappear from the house so you can see [your sister], either the week before or after Christmas, but not on Christmas eve...

As an after thought, I have always treated [your wife] like a daughter. When she showed an interest in sewing we bought her the same sewing machine that we bought [your sister]. Weh she showed an interest in knitting I got her a book to help and encourage her craft. I offered to get youir teeth fixed, but yoiu declined. When your place settings were not complete we completed them for your as well purchasing flatware so you would have the requested houseware to start your new life together. I always have you in my mind ie., mentioning to [your cousin] about the hot tub or [your godmother] about the crib or arranging for Grandpa to supply the niceties for the nursery. I still hav ethe good solid oak chairs in the garage for you. As soon as heard that you were pregnant and found out what kind of baby clothes [your wife] preferred, I enjoyed shopping for my grand daughter.

Dad and I firmly believe that you two need to be responsible for your rent and utilities, but we have gifted you with many things to enhance and make your home more comfortable. We have taken you to theater, dinners and other outings. We paid for your vet bill. Your aunt borrowed $10.000 for a down payment form grannny and grandpa and repaid it with interest, not expecting it to be a gift. You made 2 payments back to your grandfather's trust for the $7000 and to expect that to be a gift is outrageous!!! When the the money was lent it was verbally agreed upon that you would pay back $150/per month! We have been more than generous.

Families fight and move on. My parents and I had our differences but when your grandmother lived her last days in my home, as inconvenient and painful to watch as it was, she lived here because it was the right thing to do.

My reply:



The definition of audacity is suggesting to your sister that you take her to your in-laws for Christmas Eve.Christmas Eve has always been a special night in our family and [your sister] will be spending it with her parents, her uncle and cousin and will not be attending [your wife's family's] festivities.
That is fine. I was entirely expecting to be turned down, but in a desire to see my sister I was putting it on the table as a possibility. Further, it proved to me that you were at least directing her. That is despicable.


She is really hurting and repeatedly asks why we can't just call a Christmas truce so she can see you, because in her mind this year is "our year". Your sister doesn't need to be in this debacle.
Correct, she doesn't. However, there is no feasible way for me to see her without seeing you, and you were the one who brought her into this.


You have chosen your new family and it is proper for you to spend time with them. You seem to detest the loving family of parents and grandparents who raised you. You grew up in a damned good family with lots of traditions ,good memories and love. You seem to forget those good times in the past as well as in the present. We did not push you away, you went where we can not go. I am sorry that our apologies are not adequate or up to your standards.
Your apologies are not only inadequate but are *nonexistent*. I have specifically asked for an apology for specific and defined things. It has not been made. You pushed me away by being unwilling to adapt to a larger family. Further, kind actions do not excuse misdeed. If I were to murder someone but donate ten million dollars to charity, I am still a murderer.

We have never treated [your wife] like dirt, thought of her as vile or have had needless hatred for either one of you. Your descriptions of this situation have become more and more inflated and preposterious to read. I am sorry that we did not perhaps teach you more about the importance of compassion and forgiveness when you were growing up. I hope you can do a better job raising your daughter..
Your specific words at the meeting were that she said "vile, contemptible, horrible things". You also told me over the phone that [she] was "toxic" and "not healthy", implied that her [psychological disorder] was the cause of this entire mess, and called her a "bully" and were unable to indicate why you felt that way when asked. Compassion and forgiveness I have learned, and I have used repeatedly throughout the past few years. There comes a point, however, when one runs out of forgiveness and must take stock of a repeating situation wherein one keeps being damaged.

To reiterate: repeatedly, throughout the last six years, you have picked a fight with [us] or with our actions at some event. Inevitably, it led to an argument followed by a tense period and then an apology. I have a very difficult time believing the sincerity of an apology for something that keeps repeating itself: if I hit someone and then say sorry, and then hit them again, that doesn't make it any better and it only serves to undermine my trustworthiness.


As an after thought, I have always treated [your wife] like a daughter. When she showed an interest in sewing we bought her the same sewing machine that we bought [your sister]. Weh she showed an interest in knitting I got her a book to help and encourage her craft. I offered to get youir teeth fixed, but yoiu declined. When your place settings were not complete we completed them for your as well purchasing flatware so you would have the requested houseware to start your new life together. I always have you in my mind ie., mentioning to [your cousin] about the hot tub or [your godmother] about the crib or arranging for Grandpa to supply the niceties for the nursery. I still hav ethe good solid oak chairs in the garage for you. As soon as heard that you were pregnant and found out what kind of baby clothes [your wife] preferred, I enjoyed shopping for my grand daughter.

These are all nice things. They still do not excuse the lack of apology or respect.


Dad and I firmly believe that you two need to be responsible for your rent and utilities, but we have gifted you with many things to enhance and make your home more comfortable. We have taken you to theater, dinners and other outings. We paid for your vet bill. Your aunt borrowed $10.000 for a down payment form grannny and grandpa and repaid it with interest, not expecting it to be a gift. You made 2 payments back to your grandfather's trust for the $7000 and to expect that to be a gift is outrageous!!! When the the money was lent it was verbally agreed upon that you would pay back $150/per month! We have been more than generous.

I never expected the loan to be a gift. What I expected was that there would be a flexible system to pay back the money rather than the regimented business transaction that was put in place. When we were able to make payments, we made payments—as you specifically stated was acceptable—and we made more than two.


Families fight and move on. My parents and I had our differences but when your grandmother lived her last days in my home, as inconvenient and painful to watch as it was, she lived here because it was the right thing to do.

They may, but there is also generally a change from such a fight. I have witnessed no change. All I have witnessed thus far is immature finger-pointing, demands of my character and my ethics that I am unwilling to comply with, and the use of my aunt and my sister as tools so that you may meet your own ends.

Let me ask this, then: of all the texts and emails I've had with my sister, how many in fact have not been her but instead have been you? What about for [my aunt]? Have you read the conversation I had with [my aunt]? Let me quote some of it.


I have reached the point where I am out of forgiveness, out of trust, and out of faith in my parents' capability to adapt and change. When I have reached this point, and when nothing in actuality has changed, I am unfortunately left a single option: to remove them from my life so as to shelter those I can from their needless hatred, even if it means I must suffer in my own manner.

Believe me, I have sought a better option, but I cannot find one, and my mother's conduct in the single family counseling session we attended was so offensive it is a wonder we did not storm out immediately. That, in itself, should demonstrate how hard I have tried to repair things and how far I have fallen to believe that there is no fixing this. If anything is to happen, it has to be mutually desired, and mother's conduct has demonstrated no such desire to change, nor any desire for things to ever get better. Without that, I am helpless and left the course of action I have taken.

I am frankly tired—exhausted, even—of having my holidays ruined by petty arguments and immature action by people who should frankly know better.


I am appalled at the depths you have sunk to over the course of this argument: using my sister as a tool to advance your own means is contemptible, as is using my aunt. The temper tantrum you threw at the family counseling session--your close-lipped mockery of what we were there to do--was appalling. Your ready acceptance of [my wife's psychological disorder] as an explanation for everything and your expressed desire to prejudice against her because of it seems entirely out of character. You have always—ALWAYS—told me that all people are equal, that men and women and blacks and whites and everyone, are to be treated evenly and fairly. But when it is convenient and a way for you to save face, your morals go out the window and [her] disorder is immediately blamed for everything, as if that suddenly makes it okay to be prejudiced against someone because they think differently than you. Did it ever occur to you that possibly [she] isn't the problem? That maybe it's something else? That maybe it's your actions? Of course not. Otherwise, I'd have gotten my apology by now rather than writing an angry letter in response to a vindictive slight.

So, no, I'm not going to just 'move on' or 'put it behind me': to do so would make my feelings and my pain valueless, and would only show you that you can bully me around. Continually throughout this argument, you have told me how much this hurts you, yet not once have you considered how much this hurts me and mine. You speak of compassion and forgiveness, and yet you do not have any yourself. How can I trust your words when you have such hypocrisy in your most fundamental argument? How am I to trust you when you do not trust your own words? When you go through sneaky, conniving means like recruiting my sister—MY SISTER—to try to get me back. Have you no shame? To what lengths will you go to prove you are 'right'? Not once have you shown any compassion or desire to see my pains remedied. Not once have you done one simple thing I've asked for repeatedly: apologize.

And I don't know if I can accept an apology right now. I hurt too much. I have never hurt this much in my entire life, and it is because of your pettiness throughout the course of this disagreement.


Your sister ,on the advice from my therapist, has been communicating all on her own as has my sister. We did not know of their communications until after they were sent..
[Your wife] has a serious mental illness [EDITOR'S NOTE: no she doesn't] and until she gets more professional help, this whole situation will remain in limbo. We now have a better understanding as to why she acts the way she does. We continue to learn more about her illness, because do care about you, her and the baby.

What will it take to get into your and [your wife]'s head that we will never give up our family identity and become one BIG Family???. This will never happen as [our family] and [your family] are 2 independent entities. No matter how much [your wife] and you want a Norman Rockwell family Christmas dinner table, it will never happen.


That isn't what we want. We have said as much. Pay attention, I'm going to say it again:

I want my wife to be treated like a human being rather than a psychological condition. I want to be treated like the adult I am. I want you to stop pussyfooting around and apologize to [my wife] for the way you've treated her. I want you to apologize to me for trampling on my feelings without care and continuing to hound me after I have stated in multiple venues the conditions under which I would reopen communications. I want you to apologize for twisting the knife unnecessairly ("your birth father is deceased"), and for ruining my wife's pregnancy and throwing her into a depression. I want you to stop with the "my therapist said..." [bull] because you are capable of thinking for youself. I want you to stop guilt-tripping me ("you should forget about all this because your father has cancer").

I want you to realize the depth of the pain and hurt you have unleashed upon me, to accept it and apologize for it, and then I want you to be unsurprised when I tell you that, no, it isn't okay and I haven't healed yet and I may never heal if you keep dredging it up and I just want you to shut up about it and let it settle and let me be hurt for a while.

I want you to acknolwedge that [my wife] and I have feelings and our feelings matter and that there is nothing you can do to push us apart (though lord knows you've tried) and that there is a little girl coming into this world shortly who I will not repeat will not subject to the kind of wanton chaos you have inflicted upon us these past few months and who I must protect with every fiber of my being.

I want you to feel an emotion other than disappointment and to say that you're proud of the things I've accomplished but you don't even know what those things are. You don't even take a passing interest in my life unless something you happen to glance at offends you, and that hurts.

I want you to stop victimizing yourself and realize the people you've hurt with your conduct--not even these past months, but these past ten or fifteen years. If anyone here needs help, its you, and whatever you're getting, it's not the right thing.

That's what I want. Frankly I expect very little of it to happen--at least that way I won't be disappointed.


Dear [Fax] and [Raiven],
You are right and we are wrong.
You are sane and we are crazy.
We take full responsibility for everything that has gone wrong in your lives.
You are smart and we are stupid.
You are young parents and we are old parents.
We are heartily sorry for everything we have said or done for the last 15 years (6 years)
Happy Holidays!
Dad and Mom


Did I [wombating] say any of that? No.

You know what? After this display of childishness, I've decided I'm done. DONE. Don't contact me again. Don't contact [my wife] again. Don't text me, don't call me, don't IM me, don't email me, don't look at my facebook or her blog.

I am through being frustrated and through having my holidays and my regular days ruined by your childishness and your hypocrisy and your inability to be reasonable. I am through being either an oppressive tyrant or a downtrodden servant, with no middle ground. I am through letting you make a whipping boy of my wife. And I am through with your [bull]. All of it.

Tell [my sister] I love her and she can find me if she wants when she's 'old enough to make her own decisions', as you so graciously put it.

[Fax Celestis]

And the conversation with my aunt:


Ok I will start with an apology for what I am about to say, but I truly believe I must say it. I don't want [your wife] go into labor over this or anyone to stress out, but its just a little reminder of how people should treat others including family. Your Parents dont know anything about this, so dont take it out on them for my actions. I dont want to start a fight or cause stress, just something to think about. Now with that said.

[Fax] what the hell are you doing???? I really don't care that you think that your parents have hurt you and [your wife] in the PAST. You both need to work through it and GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON!!!! Your Mother sent you a text this morning to tell you that your Father was taken by ambulance to the hospital. THE HOSPITAL!!!!! Does that mean anything to you???OMG you didn't even call text or did you even care how he was??? I am in shock!!!!! What the Hell will it take for you to start acting like a mature adult??? Your parents love you with all their hearts and you are killing them with your actions.( By actions I mean not even caring enough to call and find out how your father is with all the cancer and today with his hospital emergency.) I don't care if you are hurting about what has happened in the PAST!!!!! They have done everything you and [your wife] has asked. You need to step up and be a man!!! If your parents need you in an emergency you CALL THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I cant believe it [Fax] they would and have stoped everything to come to your side if you needed them emergency or not!! Think about it, you know I am right. [Fax] how would you feel if [your unborn daughter] did to you what you are doing to your parents right now??? I know you would be hurt,lost & completely devastated just like what your parents are feeling right now.
Know one wants to change anyone they just want peace. Now one wants to start another fight its only normal to want to communicate with their child. Stop taking things the wrong way and not everything is an attack or an attempt to start a fight. Your parents love you and I know they are hurting very much by your actions, so I am asking you to move on and get over it and start acting like the loving son I know you are.
Your loving Aunt


I have moved on, it is they who haven't.

I requested an apology and acceptance of their share of the blame for what has happened between us before contact was to be reopened. It has not yet happened.

I requested for an apology to my wife, for calling her a bully; a lying, deceitful, vile woman; a libelist and slanderer; a cheat. It has not yet happened.

I requested that some faith in my opinions (not their correctness, but my right to have them) be demonstrated. I requested that I be treated with respect, that I be given due time to express myself rather than be interrupted, that I may do as I wish without fear of damaging someone's feelings over an assumed slight.

None of these hvae yet happpened.

When someone has gone so far as to not only denigrate your loved ones but also to reprimand, chastise, and put disdain upon me for loving and caring for my loved ones, I am forced to take no other action than to remove them from my daily life. Such action is harmful--toxic, even--to the continued well-being of the lives of me and my loved ones.

[Aunt], I understand you are upset and that you are trying to be a good sister and good aunt, but there are things that cannot be unsaid or forgiven. Treating my wife like dirt is among them, and she and I have tolerated it for six years now, in the hopes that every time this argument has happened prior and an apology made that it was true and that it would happen no longer.

I have reached the point where I am out of forgiveness, out of trust, and out of faith in my parents' capability to adapt and change. When I have reached this point, and when nothing in actuality has changed, I am unfortunately left a single option: to remove them from my life so as to shelter those I can from their needless hatred, even if it means I must suffer in my own manner.

Believe me, I have sought a better option, but I cannot find one, and my mother's conduct in the single family counseling session we attended was so offensive it is a wonder we did not storm out immediately. That, in itself, should demonstrate how hard I have tried to repair things and how far I have fallen to believe that there is no fixing this. If anything is to happen, it has to be mutually desired, and mother's conduct has demonstrated no such desire to change, nor any desire for things to ever get better. Without that, I am helpless and left the course of action I have taken.



I didn't expect a reply from you I just wanted to let you know that you are hurting your parents who love you very much.
Being in a family is strange at times but remember what ever happens they are still your family. Its not like having a relationship with friends, if something happens to cause pain and suffering with a friend then yes I agree you end that friendship. But you don't do it with FAMILY, its not like you were abused or anything. [Fax] you are loved and they have given you a wonderful life.
Who cares what he said she said, they hurt my feelings, what about all the things that you have said and done??? They are still willing to make this work. Yes your relationship may never be the same but you need to forgive and move on. You said you want them out of your daily life Im sorry thats never going to happen they are your parents and they need to be in your life and you in theirs. With all the good and bad times you all need to be there for each other and all this crap needs to stop now.
OK I am done butting in I just don't want to see you all in pain. Just think about all I said ok.
I hope all goes well with labor and delivery this is the best time in your life. There is nothing in life better than holding your child for the first time.
I love you and I am looking forward to seeing photos your new baby girl.


[Aunt], I have *tried* forgiving and forgetting. It has done nothing
but push the same argument back three months every time.

I am frankly tired--exhausted, even--of having my holidays ruined by
petty arguments and immature action by people who should frankly know
better.

I want to enjoy my life, not dread it.


I agree you should injoy your life. I just think that when there is a family emergency family should pull together and be there for each other no matter what.
I don't want to cause stress or start a fight just giving you some info you should already know.
Have a happy birth day with [your unborn daughter] and have a wonderful Christmas.


Why, then, when I had an emergency and was going to be evicted from my apartment due to a delayed paycheck did we not stick together as a family? I had to go to a friend out of state who sold some of his stock in a large company so he could help me, rather tha receive aid from within my own family's bounds.

When I have had problems in the past, help had to be requested and negotiated, like a business transaction, rather than a gift to wellness out of familial bond and the goodness of one's heart. More often than not, I was denied that help. That more than anything else has left me feeling not like a son but like a plaything.

I cannot be the only one who comes running at every emergency: it has to be reciprocated, or what's there isn't a family at all.


Well being a parent myself I have to say maybe they were thinking that you are an adult and hoping you would be learning a life lesson. I do know that they have helped you out with money from Grandpa,there own money, carpets ,stove & more. I really don't want to get into it, there is a difference between money and the health of your parents. I remember you calling your Mom when she was at my house this summer. You called for her advice and she gave it to you without fighting and judgment. She felt really good to be able to be there for you and [your wife] she really felt like she was part of your life.
Think about it, there are times when you help and there are times when we help our children help themselves. [Fax] in just a few short years you are going to experience all kinds of situations with [your daugher] and you will learn when its the time to help her and when she needs to help herself. It wont mean that you dont love her it means that you do LOVE HER. Raising a child is very hard because you want to do everything for them,( I remember when I was called a helicopter mom always hovering and not letting my children learn on there own. I have since learned that your job as a parent is to raise your child to be able to take care of themselves and to be the best they can be.) With doing that you have to step back and watch them make mistakes so they can learn to take care of themselves. That's the hardest part of being a parent but bottom line you will always be there when they fall and pick up the pieces when they do.
So [Fax] I hope you understand what Im trying to tell you life is to short and the time you have with your family should be happy and not filled with he said, she said, he did this ,she did this. Its all very tiring you need to enjoy life and not dwell on the past.
I love you and I am here when ever you need me.


Okay, so not much drama in this one, just more extrapolation, I suppose.

[Dsurion]

Dear [Fax] and [Raiven],
You are right and we are wrong.
You are sane and we are crazy.
We take full responsibility for everything that has gone wrong in your lives.
You are smart and we are stupid.
You are young parents and we are old parents.
We are heartily sorry for everything we have said or done for the last 15 years (6 years)
Happy Holidays!
Dad and Mom
This part was so incredibly horrible I thought it was a poorly contrived joke at first. By the powers, that's just awful and so far beyond immature. I think you're definitely doing the right thing in not speaking to them if that's the sort of pettiness you've been getting, even if it's just temporary.

Man, I feel for ya, Fax :smallfrown:

[Demon 997]

I have no real advice to offer Fax, I think you're doing the right thing. My heart goes out to you. :smallfrown:

[Serpentine]

I'm not making a case. I had a group of girl friends. They all dated the same guy. He'd date them, cheat on them, move to the next person. He had amazing presence, a cheeky smile, and when he broke up with them it was always their fault, by their own admission. And they never caught on. I'm saying that I've experienced stuff, a lot of people I've been with have experienced stuff and having some way to classify those experiences is helpful. Regardless of what we say, that happened.You witnessed the effect of a single charismatic, manipulative man on very small sample of women. Nothing more, nothing less. A single incident (and the sole man is one incident, no matter how many women he deceived) does not a trend make.

We men tend to have different failings. Women have less problems getting guys, due to the whole testosterone thing, so far far fewer girls have a problem with being platonic friends- there are just too many men chasing anything with a skirt.Bulldung. See point number 6 here (http://www.cracked.com/article_18804_the-6-wrong-questions-men-love-to-ask-about-women.html). For that matter, see point number 1.

[Eadin]

well, it seems he didn't get the message.
Said he has been having msn trouble all day so..
ah well..

[Serpentine]

So, what did you say? Opportunity to do it (relatively) in person, now!

[potatocubed]

Incoming loldrama. Well, not lol as in funny, but lol as in omg wtf spqr that's a lot of words.

My good God in a bucket of beer. :smalleek:

For what it's worth, I think you're doing the right thing. You've done everything you can to resolve this, but in the end you have to think of yourself and your new family as well as your old family. Be a good husband, a good father, and let that be enough.

[Eadin]

So, what did you say? Opportunity to do it (relatively) in person, now!


I only talked to him for a few minutes on Facebook chat.
I'm not going to ask, he's really busy with work and he's not free for the first two weeks anyway.
I'll try again after the exams are over..

[Serpentine]

I don't approve of this resolution, but I'll let someone more articulate actually advise.
Just don't let it all go slack, 'kay?

[Eadin]

I don't approve of this resolution, but I'll let someone more articulate actually advise.
Just don't let it all go slack, 'kay?

He just asked if I wanted to come watch a movie at his place if he manages to finish his work on time.
:smallsmile:

[Serpentine]

Aha! Forget what you said before, just go for it :smallwink: Organise a date to celebrate the end of studies!

[Ytaker]

But in the end, it's a stereotype. A generalisation intended to help categorise and comprehend things in your mind.

Not everyone conforms to the stereotype. I'm of the opinion that, when you date, you shouldn't base your actions off of a stereotype, but rather, the personality, likes, and dislikes of the person you want to date.

If you're flirty, like me, you're continually confronted by new women who want or don't want your attention. Stereotypes are one of my key ways to keep her interested in me, by deducing what jokes are likely to go over well, how much I should talk, what games are likely to be fun. Before I relied on them far too many conversations just died slowly because I was too energetic or placid.

In the long, long term, yes, but it takes a very long time to fully understand the personality likes and dislikes of a person. People are complicated. If you don't look for trends and similarities it's very hard to understand them.


Say you, as a guy, are compassionate, friendly, trusting, etc., but the girl you want likes guys who are aloof, assertive jerks. Don'tbecome a jerk just to get a chance at dating her. Eventually the facade will become apparent, and in the meantime, you've made yourself a jerk, which, while better in her eyes, isn't for a lot of people.

You can be more aloof. Learn to say no to her, don't instantly respond to texts, make very jokey and light (very very) semi insult challenge things to her. I've found doing that works pretty well. Also, by observing said guys you can pick out key parts of their personalities, and copy them.

I like to improve myself. Exercise, grooming, studying, and playing with my mind. You shouldn't be a jerk because that wouldn't work, but other things would.


And if she says she's not interested...it means just that. She doesn't want to date you, for whatever reason. Maybe she doesn't like your personality. Maybe she doesn't think you're hot. Maybe she's just looking for another type of guy. Changing your personality and trying again doesn't give you a much better chance of success, especially if she's already given you a concrete "no".

There are lots of little shifts you can make to your personality. I have one face (personality) for strangers, one face for friends. I've learned if I talk to strangers with the same face I use for friends conversations go far better. And, I have changed women's opinion of me.

Lots of guys do really stupid things that they think will get them a girl, just to get a girl, because their personality says so. Learning that they don't work means they can do less stupid things.


You witnessed the effect of a single charismatic, manipulative man on very small sample of women. Nothing more, nothing less. A single incident (and the sole man is one incident, no matter how many women he deceived) does not a trend make.

I witnessed a girl who continually dated abusive guys, with similar charisma to that guy. I witnessed another girl who dated guys who liked to cut her with knives. I was friends with a guy who moved along a line of women. I have lots of friends with similar stories. I have a lot of data points. Lots of other people have samples, data points. That's why there's a stereotype.


Bulldung. See point number 6 here. For that matter, see point number 1.

It doesn't address my point. How many women couldn't go to a bar, pick up a random guy, and take him home? Girls may have problems with particular guys, but far less girls have a consistent problem that guys have no desire for her and view her as a platonic friend.

There is some statistical evidence for it. I remember a documentary on love. A girl and a guy went into a bar. They both said "I've seen you around, and I find you attractive. Would you like to come home with me" 70% of men said yes, with the remaining number apologetic, or saying that they had girlfriends in town, maybe later? All of the girls refused the guy, often abusively. Those are the sorts of odds men face versus women.

That doesn't mean that all girls could find a good stable boyfriend. But, not being able to find anyone at all who wants them romantically? When they might be able to walk up to a random guy and ask them? Unlikely.

Do you know of any girls like that at all?

[CoffeeIncluded]

There is some statistical evidence for it. I remember a documentary on love. A girl and a guy went into a bar. They both said "I've seen you around, and I find you attractive. Would you like to come home with me" 70% of men said yes, with the remaining number apologetic, or saying that they had girlfriends in town, maybe later? All of the girls refused the guy, often abusively. Those are the sorts of odds men face versus women.

That doesn't mean that all girls could find a good stable boyfriend. But, not being able to find anyone at all who wants them romantically? When they might be able to walk up to a random guy and ask them? Unlikely.

Do you know of any girls like that at all?

Uh...That's because something like that will immediately set off alarm bells in most women's heads.

[Ytaker]

Uh...That's because something like that will immediately set off alarm bells in most women's heads.

Men's heads too. Different alarm though.

[Destro_Yersul]

Uh...That's because something like that will immediately set off alarm bells in most women's heads.

I believe that was the point. If you shoot down anyone who approaches you, you'll never get anywhere.

Brutally simplified, of course, but that's how I'm reading it.

[Ytaker]

I believe that was the point. If you shoot down anyone who approaches you, you'll never get anywhere.

Brutally simplified, of course, but that's how I'm reading it.

More, guys are more promiscuous than girls and so fewer girls will have the problem that no guys are willing to be romantic with them. A lot of guys don't like being platonic friends. Less girls have that problem.

Lots of guys are resistant to the bitch shield (when a girl is extremely rude in violation of social conventions to all guys who talk to her at the start of a conversation) that some girls put up, so those girls will get somewhere.

[Jokasti]

This (http://miraclejones.blogspot.com/2010/12/gene-smoke-i-learned-everything-i-know.html) is fiction and NSFW, but relevant and interesting, I think. It makes a good point, at least.

[arguskos]

This (http://miraclejones.blogspot.com/2010/12/gene-smoke-i-learned-everything-i-know.html) is fiction and NSFW, but relevant and interesting, I think. It makes a good point, at least.
Fascinating. Very interesting read. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Demon 997]

This (http://miraclejones.blogspot.com/2010/12/gene-smoke-i-learned-everything-i-know.html) is fiction and NSFW, but relevant and interesting, I think. It makes a good point, at least.

Thats interesting. Any truth to anything it says?

I'm trying to figure out how to ask my ex whats causing the stress and pains she's feeling, as that would affect how I'd proceed. I'm not sure how do it without opening up the larger relationship discussion though. Any advice?

[Ytaker]

There's some bad advice in it. Be flashy with money and girls will often assume you're compensating for something. Being gay doesn't get you girls, being able to talk to girls in a girly way does as they will trust you more- a lot of girls like metrosexual guys. Playing music does get you girls, because it puts you at the centre of attention and makes you socially powerful.

Travelling helps but only if you like travelling and if you do, why aren't you travelling already? You have to be able to talk passionantly about places and take women to your fantasy, and that only works if you want that fantasy too. I've seen guys talk about it with boredom in their voices. Not much reaction.

Being cocky helps. People who are secure with themselves do compliment themselves sometimes- and insult themselves. So it's wrong there.

Do talk them out of sleeping with you. Girls love role reversal. I've got amazing results out of saying "All you can expect from me is friendship and good conversation". Forbidden love is hot.

I've mostly found that loving children and showing girls that laughing baby on youtube is enough. No need to babysit or adopt.

Jury duty, monkeys, and killing people have no role in seducing people. Killing people is bad. It means you're a dangerous person and safe people don't associate with danger.

I've heard lots of reports from guys that having a beautiful woman with you means you have better success with girls. If at least one likes you you can't be too bad.

Voting isn't that useful. If you vote for either candidate you're risking causing a view clash with the other constituency.

The rest of the advice is generally hit and miss. Mostly miss.

On her- just spend time with her. People love to moan. She should moan if you spend enough time with her, about something. If she raises the subject she'll feel safe.

[Demon 997]

I highly doubt she'd bring it up without me prompting her. She walls things off pretty well. She might gonna give me an opening to bring it up though.

[Ytaker]

I highly doubt she'd bring it up without me prompting her. She walls things off pretty well. She might gonna give me an opening to bring it up though.

If she walls off pain, that would be impressive. If she says anything about it, you have an opening.

[xPANCAKEx]

I highly doubt she'd bring it up without me prompting her. She walls things off pretty well. She might gonna give me an opening to bring it up though.

all you have to do is ask "do you wanna talk about it"

its not your responsibility to play councilor and get her to open up if shes not willing to do so

[Trog]

There's some bad advice in it. Be flashy with money and girls will often assume you're compensating for something. Being gay doesn't get you girls, being able to talk to girls in a girly way does as they will trust you more- a lot of girls like metrosexual guys. Playing music does get you girls, because it puts you at the centre of attention and makes you socially powerful.

Travelling helps but only if you like travelling and if you do, why aren't you travelling already? You have to be able to talk passionantly about places and take women to your fantasy, and that only works if you want that fantasy too. I've seen guys talk about it with boredom in their voices. Not much reaction.

Being cocky helps. People who are secure with themselves do compliment themselves sometimes- and insult themselves. So it's wrong there.

Do talk them out of sleeping with you. Girls love role reversal. I've got amazing results out of saying "All you can expect from me is friendship and good conversation". Forbidden love is hot.

I've mostly found that loving children and showing girls that laughing baby on youtube is enough. No need to babysit or adopt.

Jury duty, monkeys, and killing people have no role in seducing people. Killing people is bad. It means you're a dangerous person and safe people don't associate with danger.

I've heard lots of reports from guys that having a beautiful woman with you means you have better success with girls. If at least one likes you you can't be too bad.

Voting isn't that useful. If you vote for either candidate you're risking causing a view clash with the other constituency.

The rest of the advice is generally hit and miss. Mostly miss.

On her- just spend time with her. People love to moan. She should moan if you spend enough time with her, about something. If she raises the subject she'll feel safe.
Being generous isn't the same as being flashy, for one. Generous is good and is sort of fun to do now and then. Being well traveled can make one more interesting to all people, I think. The raising a kid thing is true as far as I've ever been able to tell - shows some responsibility. But only if you are in your 20s or older. Teenagers mostly couldn't give a crap about that.

Voting has little to do with dating but everyone has bound to have opinions that differ. Better to vote for who you want and have the nuts to say so if it comes up than to not vote for anyone (or say you voted for anyone) because you fear it will hurt your chances with a hypothetical future someone. I say if it hurts my chances then it weeds out people I disagree with and so all the better.

Cockiness is hit and miss depending on the degree of cockiness versus her attraction to you. Subtle/confident is better than overbearing. As to role reversal you can play hard to get without having to resort to misrepresenting yourself and it'd be recommended to do just that otherwise you're basically lying to her. No need to compromise one's principles.

As to the monkey stare down this probably has more to do with being confidant with your gaze than it has to do with monkeys, really. Just as the jury duty thing has more to do with being a take charge sort of person and making tough decisions with careful consideration.

Hanging out with attractive people does help attract others of that type, yes.

[Lioness]

So, year 12 results came in today...I did quite well.
I told my dad...

Through the last couple of years, he's expressed disappointment at my aspiration to be a teacher...he thinks I can do better. He wants me to be a lawyer, pharmacist, etc....someone who earns lots of money, because he earns none at all.

So everytime I mention what I plan to study, he makes snarky remarks..."Perhaps you should study a bit harder so you have options if you change your mind" "Oh, but you know, teachers don't earn that much money", etc.
I thought he'd stopped...he's been nicer lately...I haven't been seeing him as much, either.

I texted him my results. He texts back "Great...maybe you should apply for a harder course"

He. Just. Does. Not. Get. It.
This is what I want to do. I don't want a harder course. I have no passion for law, or medicine, or chemistry. I have passion for English and education, and that's what I'm doing.

And the worst thing is that he said it in his half-jokey tone...his "I'm serious, but I'm trying to sound jokey so that if you take offence I can easily duck out" tone. His "I'm not telling you what to do but just attempting to manipulate your opinions" tone.
I hate that tone. SO much. It's one of the things that made me stop spending time with him...I don't want to hear his snarky "Oh, she's got too much makeup on" "Oh, her boobs look plastic" comments while I'm watching TV.
Etc.

So this's made me want to not resume contact...I was thinking of it. Thinking of going back and spending weekends with him again. But if all I'm gonna get is stupid snarky remarks, then I won't.

Why can't he just accept who I've grown to be...that I'm almost an adult, and can make my own decisions (He doesn't let me change at BF's house...wonder what he'd say if he knew I was going to Melbourne with BF *gasp* alone next year). He's not a positive influence on my life, and I wish there was no societal expectation of maintaining contact with parents just because they're parents.
I don't love him. Not even a little bit.

[Fax Celestis]

Call him on it.

[Demon 997]

Yeah, how much have you talked to him about this? Does he know how you feel about him trying to manipulate you?

The stories I here makes me appreciate my parents more.

[Lioness]

He knows how I feel about it...which is why he tries his "joking" tone.

Previously he just lectured me on his opinions and my choices.

[Demon 997]

Then I agree with Fax, call him on it. Tell him that his behavior is making you not want to spend time with him. I'm not suggesting you cut off contact, but you certainly don't have to spend much time with him.

EDIT: Do note that I'm younger than you, and have no experiance with these matters. However Fax does (unfortunately) so I'd listen to him.

[skywalker]

*snip*

I agree with Trog. I think the operative phrase within the whole thing is "real men and real women." Trog already said most of the things I was going to say (generosity is not flashiness, etc), but I would like to touch on the gay thing: Obviously women aren't attracted to gay men. It doesn't say "be gay." It says "have a sexual encounter with a man." If you're the type of guy to have a sexual encounter with a man, then do it. And if you aren't, then don't. It's more about being the type of man you are, and not pretending to be the man you aren't. You will, consequently, attract the type of woman right for you. It may seem like the most far-fetched advice in the whole bit, but I have practical experience that leads me to agree with Bad Dima. When I tell women I'm interested in, "yeah, I've kissed another guy," I don't say it to prove that I did it. I don't say it with shame, or any other sort ulterior motive. And it shows, and most of them take it in a neutral or positive light. The ones who take it negatively usually turn out to be lost causes anyway.

Again, it didn't say "talk about politics." Not once. It said "always vote." The real problem with this whole column is not that it's bad advice, it's that you have to be willing to listen to and put the advice into practice exactly as it is given. You can't half ass it or take it as saying something it isn't.

"Don't talk them out of sleeping with you" doesn't mean "don't play hard to get," it means "don't talk too much." There's so many little reasons why you read advice that was mostly "hit" and took it to be mostly "miss," but I think instead of explaining them to you, I should just tell you to go back and actually read what he's saying all the way through as though you're trying to learn (continue to think critically, of course, as you should when learning) and not as though you're trying to form an opinion. It seems like what Bad Dima would do.


Why can't he just accept who I've grown to be...that I'm almost an adult, and can make my own decisions (He doesn't let me change at BF's house...wonder what he'd say if he knew I was going to Melbourne with BF *gasp* alone next year).

Perhaps he can't accept it because he knows teachers make ****e pay for some of the hardest work in the world and he doesn't want his daughter, who he knows to be very smart, to be working a thankless, awful job for peanuts? I don't know. It's why I wouldn't want my daughter to be a teacher. Nasty, nasty job, my mother was a teacher. Plus, it's hard for parents to accept their kids growing into something they didn't want because they feel like they've done a bad job by you because you became something less than you could be, or less happy than you could be, etc.

And he can't accept that you can make your own decisions because he thinks you're a young adult who's very prone to making bad decisions. From his point of view, he has some data to back up his position, which is your desire to be a teacher.

Oh, and he won't let you change at BF's house because he's your dad, and dads are weird about their daughters being naked even in the vicinity of boys that want to have sex with them (the daughters). Come on, that one's easy.

I say you be honest with him. Tell him that you don't appreciate the jokes, that you'd really rather he be honest. Because you would, right?

Part 2, I think you should be prepared to accept some level of criticism. He's your father. He's probably got some wisdom you ain't got. At least, that's the attitude I try to apply when my dad comes down on me. Usually it's true.

If you aren't able to accept some level of criticism, then tell him that you'd rather he didn't say anything to you about it at all. Don't make threats about not spending time around him.

If you aren't able to accept some level of criticism, and he's not able to stop criticizing, then don't talk to him. Simple, eh? But you gotta do some consideration and communication first.

Also, I'd examine some of you. Like why you texted him your grades in the first place. Sure, you want dad to be proud of you. But you also knew what was likely to happen. What thought process went on there? Second, your words indicate to me that you're trying to paint yourself into a corner where you don't have to talk to him anymore AND you don't have to feel like you did anything wrong. So I'd take a look at that, too. Are you approaching this situation in the most connecting way possible?

Alternatively, you said you don't love him, not even a little bit, so why bother with any of this?

[Jokasti]

I would just like to say once more, it is a work of fiction and not a real advice columnist or true story. It was an interesting read, but I mainly linked it because this excerpt:

“Striking out for a lady means choosing a man who is not really a man,” said Bad Dima, squirting melon-flavored nicotine into his electric cigarette and then screwing it together. “Striking out means picking a selfish and unskilled lover. The stakes are much higher for women. You would be much more coy and unenthusiastic about sex if you were never guaranteed an orgasm, but rather were only able to climax ten percent of the time. Perhaps one percent of the time with a stranger. Additionally, women get called sluts for merely trying to find men who activate their wild passions. They might have to sleep with hundreds to find this man, the same way that you might have to hit on hundreds of women to find one willing to go home with you.”
was relevant to the discussion at the time.

[Coidzor]

^: Indeed, though I imagine it's far less hashed out in the minds of most people, relying more on the anti-slut socialization.
So this's made me want to not resume contact...I was thinking of it. Thinking of going back and spending weekends with him again. But if all I'm gonna get is stupid snarky remarks, then I won't.

Why can't he just accept who I've grown to be...that I'm almost an adult, and can make my own decisions (He doesn't let me change at BF's house...wonder what he'd say if he knew I was going to Melbourne with BF *gasp* alone next year). He's not a positive influence on my life, and I wish there was no societal expectation of maintaining contact with parents just because they're parents.
I don't love him. Not even a little bit.

Well, the most generous motivation that could be ascribed to him is wanting to ensure that being a teacher is really, really something you want to do, especially since the university education one receives to become a teacher is so specialized and switching out to a different track is that much more difficult, painful, and more time in school.

Of course, since you hate him, he's much more likely to achieve the opposite effect to what he desires and is only causing you to go further and further into it, further, in fact, than you would invest yourself otherwise. So I'd recommend some introspection to double check how much of your current desire is still you and how much of it is to spite him.

Also, as Skywalker said, examining what your motivation was in texting him your grades, or mentioning anything about changing over at your boyfriend's house, is probably one of the better things you could investigate with your introspection on the topic.

That, and parents can't accept their children are grown up for quite a while longer than 18 if they actually care about them at all and don't just kick them out between 16-18.

[Lioness]

Perhaps he can't accept it because he knows teachers make ****e pay for some of the hardest work in the world and he doesn't want his daughter, who he knows to be very smart, to be working a thankless, awful job for peanuts? I don't know. It's why I wouldn't want my daughter to be a teacher. Nasty, nasty job, my mother was a teacher. Plus, it's hard for parents to accept their kids growing into something they didn't want because they feel like they've done a bad job by you because you became something less than you could be, or less happy than you could be, etc.

Someone has to do it...and I enjoy teaching people. I always have. If every teacher was discouraged because it was a thankless hard slog...then we'd have no teachers. It's not a bad decision, it's just not the one he would make.



Oh, and he won't let you change at BF's house because he's your dad, and dads are weird about their daughters being naked even in the vicinity of boys that want to have sex with them (the daughters). Come on, that one's easy.

Yeah, I get the whole dad thing. But I'm not even changing in his room, or even in his presence. I'm changing in his sisters room with the door shut.


I say you be honest with him. Tell him that you don't appreciate the jokes, that you'd really rather he be honest. Because you would, right?

The jokes are his honesty. When he says "Maybe you could consider enrolling for a harder degree" he means "I want you to enroll in a harder degree because this one won't make you enough money.


Part 2, I think you should be prepared to accept some level of criticism. He's your father. He's probably got some wisdom you ain't got. At least, that's the attitude I try to apply when my dad comes down on me. Usually it's true.

Usually...yes. But for a 50-year old casual storeperson who's struggling to hold down a job because he's a tool...career advice is maybe not the best thing from him. Yeah, there's always "Do what I didn't do", but he went and got an seismology degree...he just can't be bothered using it.


If you aren't able to accept some level of criticism, then tell him that you'd rather he didn't say anything to you about it at all. Don't make threats about not spending time around him.

It's not a threat...I've mentioned before in this thread (probably a previous one)...I really don't like his personality and attitude. I wouldn't be breaking contact with him for just one incident...it's a good 10 years worth of pretty much crying myself to sleep every night I spend at his place.


Also, I'd examine some of you. Like why you texted him your grades in the first place.

Because I don't live with him, and that's the most reliable way to contact him. He doesn't always answer his phone, especially if he's at work, and he doesn't check emails.


Sure, you want dad to be proud of you. But you also knew what was likely to happen.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I thought for a moment that he could just be proud without nagging. It's always "Could you do better?". I thought he might give it a rest, seeing as the whole thing's over and done with.



What thought process went on there? Second, your words indicate to me that you're trying to paint yourself into a corner where you don't have to talk to him anymore AND you don't have to feel like you did anything wrong. So I'd take a look at that, too. Are you approaching this situation in the most connecting way possible?

I'll think about this...I'm not sure.


Alternatively, you said you don't love him, not even a little bit, so why bother with any of this?

Because he and the rest of my family expect that I keep some sort of contact, at least until I move out of mum's house into my own.


Well, the most generous motivation that could be ascribed to him is wanting to ensure that being a teacher is really, really something you want to do, especially since the university education one receives to become a teacher is so specialized and switching out to a different track is that much more difficult, painful, and more time in school.

Yeah. But he's been nagging me to change career aspirations for years...and I haven't. From young ages he was feeding me suggestions that I should become a lawyer, or a pharmacist. He doesn't suggest anything low-paying...and he also suggests career paths for my siblings...apparently teaching is good enough for my smallest one, because he doesn't think she's smart enough to do anything else.


Of course, since you hate him, he's much more likely to achieve the opposite effect to what he desires and is only causing you to go further and further into it, further, in fact, than you would invest yourself otherwise. So I'd recommend some introspection to double check how much of your current desire is still you and how much of it is to spite him.

I'll think about his too.


That, and parents can't accept their children are grown up for quite a while longer than 18 if they actually care about them at all and don't just kick them out between 16-18.

True. I guess...I dunno. I think I'm mature...he maybe doesn't see that.

[druid91]

Someone has to do it...and I enjoy teaching people. I always have. If every teacher was discouraged because it was a thankless hard slog...then we'd have no teachers. It's not a bad decision, it's just not the one he would make.


And then they would look into giving teachers better offers now wouldn't they? :smallwink:

I'm really just joking. In fact society would probably collapse as children flooded across the worlds cities in packs, devouring all life as we know it.:smalleek:

[Ego Slayer]

Edit: Blah couldn't post this last night cos of the database backing up stuff.

Just need somewhere to post stuff... it's mostly positive, lol. -shrug-

Don't quite know how to put this... I've got someone, suddenly. It's an online thing, of course, but the entire process of getting to know each other was so different than anyone else. Ever. We were acquainted but almost never talked for something like two months and then only a month or so ago did we suddenly start talking and turns out we're freaking brilliant. It was only this week that he actually realized that I like him as much as he does me. Just from the perspective of friendship we go together so well and apparently I'm one of the few rare people he's trusted enough to talk openly about... anything, really. The fact alone I could get that from someone in the course of barely a few weeks is... well, it's what I want to be able to do for people. I mean, I think I get it... I'm really open about a lot of things and pairing that with a lot of empathy I can get someone to return that honest. But, anyway, I've never gotten to know someone so fast before... half jokingly half serious we changed our facebook statuses last night, deciding that "it's complicated" was about a good a definition we we could come up with. I've had crushes on friends over the last couple years, but there was always things about them that made them not the right kind of person for me. Part of why I fell so hard into my situation now was that I actually feel like he's my equal. Like everything we've talked about put us on a similar, if not the same page. We simply "get" each other.

Part of me says "this is crazy, you're crazy for doing this again" but the other part is utterly surprised that I've honestly talked about my experience with people online, how everything translates in person, fears, expectations, things that are uncomfortable to consider, what I've learned, etc, and what the value is in being able to have those conversations right in the beginning, even before we fully just realized we're both really serious about how we feel. I initiated those kinds of topics first one night after barely a week or so about how often guys online decide I'm magically the most amazing person ever when in reality they don't know so many things and get their head on all wrong and aren't reasonable or rational (usually involving that they'll never probably meet me) and how frustrating that is for me. I knew from just the first few days of talking that he kind of liked me so I got nervous and drew all these arbitrary lines and tried to make sure another person wasn't going to go all irrationally obsessive about me. It was kind of a ridiculous, serious thing to do to someone who I was only just getting to know, but... he actually understood... which in itself is something a lot of other guys couldn't grasp. But... this week we just willingly crossed a whole ton of those lines and I almost don't know what to do.

But, making it "officially unofficial" is a scary thing to do suddenly. I've got exactly what I've wanted in terms of who someone is and to what level we actually understand each other, but now that I'm so close to really having a chance to have that I'm afraid of it. I complain relentlessly about how being alone makes everything so much worse, but really having someone... isn't something I'm good at making sense of. Right now its a "lets see where this naturally ends up" which is both something we're comfortable with, but all I can think about is if its successful then I have to have the balls to make the effort to eventually meet in person, etc, and if it fails I pray to god I don't lose one of the only friends I've ever felt truly good about, or if it fails because we never meet then have I possibly missed out on something really good.

Today was amazing, though. Finished finals week very successfully, and have someone to make my life worth it right now... I actually felt good tonight. Hung out with him and some other friends, rewarded myself, and tried to relax for the first time this year. I'm honestly lucky I even lived through parts of this year, so being able to end it with something so good makes me damn happy I'm still alive. I haven't been truly happy about anything in, well... what feels like forever.

(Excuse some awkward grammar there, its 4am.)

[Castaras]

Lioness: Ignore him. Or something like "I am doing what I want to do, money is not everything, being happy is. I wouldn't be as happy in another job as I will be in teaching." There are some people in this world who can't understand such things. I feel for you that your dad is one such person.

And you have my sympathy. While it isn't my parents who have said such things (they are the most supportive people ever), I have family friends who have been insinuating that I'm a failure because I'm not going for Oxbridge. I could, potentially, but I just don't want the stress or hassle. :smallsmile: Pretty much, just a calm and blunt summary of the situation will do, and if that doesn't solve anything then break contact. If he isn't going to accept you for what you want to do, then it's him that needs to sort himself out, not you.

[Starbuck_II]

Someone has to do it...and I enjoy teaching people. I always have. If every teacher was discouraged because it was a thankless hard slog...then we'd have no teachers. It's not a bad decision, it's just not the one he would make.


Actually, this might make more trade schools which would be a good thing. Despite the call for college society is creating: I think some people might be happy learning a job/vocation than being in debt.

But yeah, teachers should be paid more for the all the work they do (at minimum overtime as they work when get home usually too).

But either way, Lioness is you want to teach: do it. Tell your dad, you have your own dreams: you can't cater to his: you need to follow your own path.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, so now I need some actual advice about my drama.

I don't want to have my sister get caught in the crossfire, but she's 15 and lives with my parents. I understand I can't really see her for Christmas, but: should I get her a gift and mail it? I am currently leaning towards 'no', out of a want to avoid further drama.

[Ytaker]

Being generous isn't the same as being flashy, for one. Generous is good and is sort of fun to do now and then.

I can't see that giving a hundred dollars to a bum is likely to obviously stimulate women to be attracted to you.

I asked a girl. She said she would ask him for spare change. If he said no, she would call him racist.

It encouraged her to manipulate him for money.


Being well traveled can make one more interesting to all people, I think.

My recitience about this is from personal experience. I have travelled. I hated it, and it doesn't work well talking about it because I'm not passionant when I talk about it. The advice isn't great for dnd people, who aren't as obviously passionant about travelling.


The raising a kid thing is true as far as I've ever been able to tell - shows some responsibility. But only if you are in your 20s or older. Teenagers mostly couldn't give a crap about that.

There are much easier ways to do that. If you have an infectious joy about children that works as well, but requires less effort. It's more possible to do than spend huge amounts of time with children.



Voting has little to do with dating but everyone has bound to have opinions that differ. Better to vote for who you want and have the nuts to say so if it comes up than to not vote for anyone (or say you voted for anyone) because you fear it will hurt your chances with a hypothetical future someone. I say if it hurts my chances then it weeds out people I disagree with and so all the better.

I'm not saying you shouldn't vote but will it get you girls? Probably not.

So you're admitting it will hurt your chances? Point proven. I'm arguing that the advice is unhelpful in getting you girls, not that it is helpful in rejecting girls.


Cockiness is hit and miss depending on the degree of cockiness versus her attraction to you. Subtle/confident is better than overbearing. As to role reversal you can play hard to get without having to resort to misrepresenting yourself and it'd be recommended to do just that otherwise you're basically lying to her. No need to compromise one's principles.

Everything is hit and miss based on the degree. Which is why you should do it to the right degree.

Being overbearing isn't good, but why not be overt confident? It's not bad being overt with your confidence. Confidence is a good thing, by most's estimation.

If you're refering to my roleplay saying "I am too pure and chaste to have such erotic thoughts" I don't feel roleplaying is selling out on your principles. I find it a very enjoyable activity, and do it continuously. The girls don't believe you fully- that's the point.


As to the monkey stare down this probably has more to do with being confidant with your gaze than it has to do with monkeys, really. Just as the jury duty thing has more to do with being a take charge sort of person and making tough decisions with careful consideration.

Staring at a monkey won't improve your ability to look at girls. They're radically different skills.

Making tough decisions with careful consideration gets you laid? I understand the benefits, I just don't see how they have any connection with women. If you can't lead, going on jury duty won't make you a leader. So, lesson learned, be something you're not.


Hanging out with attractive people does help attract others of that type, yes.

Yeah.


And it shows, and most of them take it in a neutral or positive light. The ones who take it negatively usually turn out to be lost causes anyway.

So, mixed results, not especially positive? I'm not saying you have to do it, but the story claiming that doing it will improve your chances is sketchy. With this, and politics, your argument has been that it reduces the number of people who you don't like. That's not really synonymous with "It gets you girls".


Again, it didn't say "talk about politics." Not once. It said "always vote."

Yeah, but the reason it might work is she'd find out. Then it's fifty fifty. Just consider- how does whatever directly lead to a woman liking you more?


There's so many little reasons why you read advice that was mostly "hit" and took it to be mostly "miss," but I think instead of explaining them to you, I should just tell you to go back and actually read what he's saying all the way through as though you're trying to learn

"Always answer your phone. Never drink alcohol, unless you drink straight tequila. Never smoke. Eat pancakes with maple syrup every Sunday. Eat black caviar at funerals. "

Complete miss. I was referring to the advice around that point in the text.

The advice in general, is sorta good. A lot of it is overly difficult to do (be interested in travel and spend thousands on airplane tickets) or children (spend tens or hundreds of hours on something you probably don't care about). Some of it is overtly wrong and won't have much effect one way or the other (I stared a monkey down. Am I sexy yet?). A lot of it is very hard to successfully apply to real life because it's vague and incomplete.

The best advice is to get a woman on your arm. One you aren't dating. Social proof. Easy to do, very practical. Especially for those who are platonic friends.

[xPANCAKEx]

Fax

get her a gift. They can only then complain if you dont also get them a gift as well (which despite the recent hassles you really should do - even if its only a small token gift)

But her age puts all the recent invite-her-over-for-xmas-eve drama into perspective. It was a boneheaded move to ask her to come to a family occasion when you're probably aware xmas eve is an occasion for your side of the family too. Ask to see her, just not when conflicts with major social occasions such as that. You've opted out of them, which is understandable given the recent drama, but asking her to come away from her/your family to spend time with the inlaws (who your parents dont get along with by the sounds of it) was really just asking for trouble

Lioness

id agree with calling him on it, but be careful how you go about it. Just ask him plainly "look, i know it might not be the career path you'd choose for me, but its something i really enjoy so for the love of sweet zombie jebus, please stop making jokes about it all the time. Its not funny. I understand its a stressful thing for you and makes you worry i wont be able to look after myself, but its beyond the joke now. please stop."

[Trog]

My recitience about this is from personal experience. I have travelled. I hated it, and it doesn't work well talking about it because I'm not passionant when I talk about it. The advice isn't great for Ytaker, who aren't as obviously passionant about travelling.
Fixed that for you.

There are much easier ways to do that. If you have an infectious joy about children that works as well, but requires less effort. It's more possible to do than spend huge amounts of time with children.
I was never advocating an easy way out for this. I have kids. I raise kids. It has garnered me female attention that I am a good father. Frankly, there is no substitution for experience here - the story's examples included.

So you're admitting it will hurt your chances? Point proven. I'm arguing that the advice is unhelpful in getting you girls, not that it is helpful in rejecting girls.I'm admitting it weeds out ones I wouldn't want to date anyway. If you have less discriminating taste then by all means avoid ever bringing it up. Though the crux of our disagreements here seems to be that you are looking at this from a "player" point of view and I am not. *shrug*

Being overbearing isn't good, but why not be overt confident? It's not bad being overt with your confidence. Confidence is a good thing, by most's estimation.
As long as your over-confidence isn't writing checks your charisma cannot cash then do as you will. But I have seen a LOT of guys come off that way and get completely shot down because, frankly, they simply couldn't pull it off. And many of the women I have seen shoot down those types of guys have enjoyed doing just that. Most times it's comical.

Staring at a monkey won't improve your ability to look at girls. They're radically different skills.

I never said it had anything to do with looking at girls. It will give the confidence to begin to try to stare other men down. It's a social pecking order thing.

[Ytaker]

I recently tried out changing my personality radically for a girl. I chatted in a girly manner, watched girly tv with her, made girly fashion and celeb comments, and suppressed my nature continually. And it was extremely stressful and difficult. But the result was wildly successful. She was very, very eager to please me after.

I doubt I'll continue to fake being metrosexual, though. It's a huge strain, and even the amazing results that followed don't compensate for that. Good to know I can do it though. DnD roleplaying skills prove to be useful in real life again.


Fixed that for you.

I've never seen anyone else get results unless they were passionant about it. Lots of conversations die about travel. Say, a latin studying friend of mine had a conversation with a lady that went like this, after going to rome for the artificial reason that he felt he should. "I went to rome" "Yeah" "I went to see the colosseum" "Ok" And the story is suggesting the person do it just because it wil activate their genes, rather than because they want to travel, experience the world.


I was never advocating an easy way out for this. I have kids. I raise kids. It has garnered me female attention that I am a good father. Frankly, there is no substitution for experience here - the story's examples included.
I'm admitting it weeds out ones I wouldn't want to date anyway. If you have less discriminating taste then by all means avoid ever bringing it up. Though the crux of our disagreements here seems to be that you are looking at this from a "player" point of view and I am not. *shrug*

I doubt you got the kids to get attention. That's the thing- would the story's suggestions work if you did them artificially to get girls, rather than because you actually wanted to? If you want to, of course, do it. But because it will get you girls?

I'm approaching it from the view of someone who can't get ladies to date him, and wants to get more women dating him, like the guy in the story. You should have discriminating taste after more women are attracted to you.


As long as your over-confidence isn't writing checks your charisma cannot cash then do as you will. But I have seen a LOT of guys come off that way and get completely shot down because, frankly, they simply couldn't pull it off. And many of the women I have seen shoot down those types of guys have enjoyed doing just that. Most times it's comical.

Which is why you shouldn't have over confidence. But why not have overt confidence, suitable for you? A small amount of self deprecating humour makes it quite palatable.

What I mean by overt confidence is, confident body language (which you can develop) lack of deference to her (don't over compliment her or need her approval) liking yourself (doing things that make you smile when you go to sleep) and speaking in a comfortable manner. What do you define as confidence?


I never said it had anything to do with looking at girls. It will give the confidence to begin to try to stare other men down. It's a social pecking order thing.

Well, ok, but contests in the pecking order are a very mixed blessing. I've seen a lot of guys do that and be shot down because they are insulted. If you want that ability, sure though. I'm not sure if it would even translate to staring men down. Monkeys don't question your competence, or give you threats- humans are much more intimidating.

[Zeb The Troll]

I've never seen anyone else get results unless they were passionant about it. Lots of conversations die about travel. Say, a latin studying friend of mine had a conversation with a lady that went like this, after going to rome for the artificial reason that he felt he should. "I went to rome" "Yeah" "I went to see the colosseum" "Ok" And the story is suggesting the person do it just because it wil activate their genes, rather than because they want to travel, experience the world.I think the point he was trying to make is that it's not universally true that DnD players are not passionate about travel, as you implied.


The advice isn't great for dnd people, who aren't as obviously passionant about travelling.

[Trog]

*stuff*
Well for one I don't count what you did for that girl as metrosexual - they don't act girly, the act sophisticated... or at least marginally so. Pick up a copy of the Metrosexual Guidebook of Style - it's a good read for any man about things that they can do to marginally improve their image. I own a copy of it and I can tell you it's full of solid advice for most of the chapters. Things like ettiquette and basic grooming and fashion sense. That sort of thing. It has nothing in it about acting girly, for the record.

Faking being anything is bad, generally, I feel. Be you, but be the best you you can be. That book I mentioned just give you pointers along those lines - like a men's magazine might but without the usual "here's how to score with chicks" stuff.

On the subject of travel, Zeb had it right.

No I didn't get kids to get attention, obviously.

And I don't really believe that, as the story says, that you develop a smell for doing things in your life. But the things mentioned all point to some basic attractor for males - generosity, confidence, a sense of power, responsibility, etc. Which is the part of the story I agree with. Its specifics are highly debatable - but make for a good story at least.

I disagree with the idea of faking some of it though as I see that as being false. See my above advice for my feelings on being false. The real point to take away is being the type of man that can do some of those things mentioned in the story can make you seem attractive to the opposite sex most of the time. I suppose one could fake being these things and have marginal success but I think being fake is probably the biggest turn off of all... unless the other person is also being fake.

But then again I've seen a great many mask-wearing player-types hook up with one another because that is all either one of them wanted and the disguise was what each wore long enough to find someone to hook up with. Though sometimes it feels good to wear that disguise or role play as that type or what-have-you because it does get you attention, I suppose, for a night.

Personally, at this moment, I'm not in that phase of my life right now. So right now I look on it with some disdain. But perhaps in the future if my situation were to change I might change my mind about that so I cannot condemn it utterly.

[Coidzor]

Wait, so now if you're a sophisticated gentleman of the world you're metrosexual? :smallconfused:

[Ytaker]

I think the point he was trying to make is that it's not universally true that DnD players are not passionate about travel, as you implied.

I suspect it's less. In my experience, at gamesoc and through life, is that dnd players tend to be less physically active, less outgoing, and go on holidays less.

As such my critique- that the advice won't work so well for people who don't like travelling- is doubly true here. I suppose if you like travelling but weren't for some reason, this could help.

If you're a dnd player who likes travelling, then that's great for your romantic chances.

Trog
Things like ettiquette and basic grooming and fashion sense. That sort of thing. It has nothing in it about acting girly, for the record.

Did that. I also talked in a knowledgable way about fashion, hair, and celebs and their concerns. Celebs are very important. If you want to talk to girly girls you have to gossip about someone.

You don't think talking about fashion, grooming, and such, is girly? We have different definitions of girly. Being interested in fashion, shopping, hair, and the emotional details of celeb's lives is how I defined it, and what I did.


Faking being anything is bad, generally, I feel.

It was stressful. I don't think it's bad in general to fake, if it isn't so stressful. I love playing with myself. My mind is my toy, and my emotions are fluid and malleable. This was just, a mental state I didn't enjoy putting myself in.


I disagree with the idea of faking some of it though as I see that as being false.

If you're incogruent, women will pick it up eventually. That's the problem. The story gives you advice on what to be, but the point was you could do those things and be more attractive. That won't work unless you're the sort of guy who does those things, because you will have to fake it.

That's my problem with the story. It says "Be an outgoing guy who loves children, has musical talent, who has leadership and dominance, is charismatic etc." A lot of the advice is stuff you'd have to fake, if you weren't already doing it. There are books, month long courses, training sessions on developing all of those skills. Saying it's helpful to have those talents- true- isn't very helpful.

[Trog]

*A troglodyte pokes his head in the thread*

Today in Out of Context Quotes:

I love playing with myself.

[Ego Slayer]

Ahahaha... best LOL of the day so far, Trog... :smalltongue:

*highfive*

[Lioness]

I think the main point of disagreement between YTaker and the rest of the thread is that YTaker just wants to get laid lots, while most of the other people would like a relationship along with that.

Sure, changing your personality for a girl might get you some sex...but if you hang around her for any extended period of time, she's going to notice that you're putting on a facade.
So not the best technique for a long-term relationship.

[Ytaker]

I think the main point of disagreement between YTaker and the rest of the thread is that YTaker just wants to get laid lots, while most of the other people would like a relationship along with that.

Sure, changing your personality for a girl might get you some sex...but if you hang around her for any extended period of time, she's going to notice that you're putting on a facade.
So not the best technique for a long-term relationship.

Well. I clearly suck at disagreeing. I was arguing the opposite to what you say I was. That changing your personality (being more outgoing, loving children more) to get girls wouldn't work because they would detect your falseness, and because it would play hell with your self image.

I even reported the results of me faking metrosexuality for this thread- success, but extreme stress and mental anguish. In the long run, I wouldn't be able to cover up my absolute hate of celebs and fashion.

Most of what I'm talking about is more to do with first impressions anyway. How to get girls to talk to you, and enjoy talking to you. It's your choice what direction to go from there.

Also, slight fail earlier.

[junglesteve]

So this is just me venting

The other night I went to an end of the semester party at a friends. A buddy and myself decided we felt like drinking baileys fast forward to the super market and us purchasing the stuff. A friend of mine who works there walks up and starts asking about our purchases. I joke around and I get her and the cashier laughing. Next day after work I come home to a message on a dating site I havent been to in months. Its the random cashier and she found my profile, thought I was funny, decided to see if I wanted to hang out. Tron came out today so Im like "Yeah! Lets go see tron!" Turns out she is a room mate of an ex-friend of mine. Turns out for no reason other then what my paranoid brain is thinking up she de-friends me sometime today and I dont notice. So when I go to pick her up I look like a giant fool.

I have absolutely nothing to be angry about but thats all I feel right now. Anger and like a giant idiot, god damn it all. I talked to her for a few hours last night and she genuinely seemed like the type of person I could get along with. But I have self respect - if she tries to contact me again i wont be responding. Obviously if she couldn't test the waters with me and come to her own conclusions instead of listening to gossip then she wasnt worth my time.

I still feel like **** though...

[xPANCAKEx]

junglesteve

no one would enjoy being stood up like that, so you have every right to have those mixed feelings of anger/embaressment (the latter is unfortunately nearly always part of the parcel).

You're right in that you shouldnt entertain her contacting you again. If she does get in touch, dont play any card other than the "you didnt have the manners to call and say you were cancelling". Everything else can (and may) be argued with to a point - youre right to hurt feelings, her reasons for standing you up etc etc - and you wont know her motivated for cancelling without talking to her. But the lack of courtesy cant be argued with, so stick to that and that alone and you'll have no problem standing on any moral high ground you may wish to occupy.

that lack of courtesy DOES justify feeling angry, so dont let anyone tell you otherwise

If your mutual friend (the friend at the supermarket) asks, dont venture any of your theories as to why she stood you up. Just keep to what you do know for sure: she got in touch. you set up a date. She stood you up with no warning or explaination. Cut the conversation off there or else you will look like you're bitching about her. Just stick with the facts and you'll be fine.

keep your chin up, and dont let all this get you down

[junglesteve]

junglesteve

no one would enjoy being stood up like that, so you have every right to have those mixed feelings of anger/embaressment (the latter is unfortunately nearly always part of the parcel).

You're right in that you shouldnt entertain her contacting you again. If she does get in touch, dont play any card other than the "you didnt have the manners to call and say you were cancelling". Everything else can (and may) be argued with to a point - youre right to hurt feelings, her reasons for standing you up etc etc - and you wont know her motivated for cancelling without talking to her. But the lack of courtesy cant be argued with, so stick to that and that alone and you'll have no problem standing on any moral high ground you may wish to occupy.

that lack of courtesy DOES justify feeling angry, so dont let anyone tell you otherwise

If your mutual friend (the friend at the supermarket) asks, dont venture any of your theories as to why she stood you up. Just keep to what you do know for sure: she got in touch. you set up a date. She stood you up with no warning or explaination. Cut the conversation off there or else you will look like you're bitching about her. Just stick with the facts and you'll be fine.

keep your chin up, and dont let all this get you down

Will do sir!

Tomorrow I think I'll purge all those feelings with a nice long run and a well earned sauna visit.

[Lord Loss]

Well, here I am again with more, good old high-school relationship baloney. Sorry to clutter up the more important issues, but I really would like some help right now.

Okay here's the situation. I like a good friend of mine. I'm pretty sure she likes me back. Here's why:

I've known her for quite a while and she was friends with all the guys she's liked since grade eight before she liked them. She then started to tease/very lightly flirt with them/complain about them , which is basically what she's doing at the moment. Also, when it comes to liking people she's always told me who she likes (no exceptions) even if she didn't tell her twin. Two-three days ago, I asked her who she liked, she said no one (it was quite unconvincing) and it came up again yesterday, when she admitted to liking someone. She wouldn't say who and said she'd tell me in a few days, which she then changed to ''I'll tell you when you get a cell phone'' which is her way of saying not in a long while (seriously. there's no way I'm getting a cell). Now knowing her, it's going to be a guy that she's close to and that only leaves two people me and one of my friends, M. They used to like each other, but I know that it's not M.

Which leaves me , I think. now I'm not sure wether I'm jumping to conclusions and this is probably coming out garbled, and i'm probably omitting things, but I'm not really sure what to do. I'm only seeing her twice more before the winter break and that's monday at tuesday, so I'd quite like some advice on how to proceed. I really would like to ask her out or something, but I've no idea what to do.

Thanks in advance, everyone.

[absolmorph]

Argh. Venting is needed. Advice not so much (I have limited choices for both things I need to vent about).

A little bit after breaking up with my girlfriend, another friend who I knew was interested in me (and we'd had a mutual crush when we first met) "moved in for the kill" (her words, not mine). It wasn't a relationship, but we were hoping that we could get together and have a little fun. Friends-with-benefits, basically. Problem being, neither of us can drive, she goes to college an hour and a half away (and her parents live a bit further, IIRC). In order see each other, I'd need either my mom or my brother to drive me, unless she comes down here. She said she's coming down for Disneyland one more time this year. With her mom. So, after a couple weeks of "Yay, this could actually happen!" I get "It probably won't happen". Fish muffin. Well, I guess I'll just continue my plan to go after a different friend who I started being actual friends with early in August who has, time and again, proven that she's just plain awesome.
Among other things, she researches stuff for RPs (when playing a steampunk engineer, she figured out how everything would work in an airship) and when I asked how in the Nine Hells she can call me perfect she gave me nine reasons, which was especially great since my mom had just made a comment about someone on TV being skinny and disgusting... with her son who she's asked about having eating disorders in the next room. Who happens to be really, really self-conscious about being skinny. My mother doesn't always think about people.

Now, this girl is pretty, intelligent, creative and dear Gog is she nerdy. When considering her Christmas present, one of my first questions to a mutual friend was "Who's her favorite superhero?", which I was pretty sure was Captain America (and was right, too). Other than her being a friend and possibly not being interested, there's not really any reason not to pursue her. Then came today. She had to give a monologue in front of her entire school. She was stressed. And one of her best friends asked her out (with a bouquet of white roses, apparently). At first I was like "OH CRAP, AGAIN?" and worried that I would once again be beaten to the punch. Then I scrolled down and it changed to "OH CRAP, CHEER HER UP, STUPID." She turned him down and felt like a [REDACTED]. And cried.
I really, really don't want to make her unhappy. But, at the same time, I want to at least give it a shot. And so I'm planning on telling her how I feel to see how she reacts, then maybe asking her out.
And I'm going to pray that things go well and our mutual friend doesn't murder me, because then she might go to jail and that would be bad.

Fortunately, I have time to prepare (probably a week-ish minimum before we take advantage of vacation to hang out), so I can get my mind and heart in better shape before anything happens.
... It's kinda odd that I'm willing to say all of this on a forum, but barely got into it with any of my friends (and my best friend probably won't hear about at least half of it, if she hears about any of it).

Oh, and for those who remember Annie: she's asked me a few times why we can't get back together and apparently does not understand that the trust I put in her before is just plain gone now. I was considering going to Disneyland, but when I learned that it would be a small group (like six people), and her and E would be two of them, and the friend I was hoping to spend time with wouldn't be able to go I decided to stay home.
I never expected to have a girl asking if we could get back together more than a week later. Or even if we could get back together at all.

[Zeb The Troll]

I suspect it's less. In my experience, at gamesoc and through life, is that dnd players tend to be less physically active, less outgoing, and go on holidays less.And my experience is exactly the opposite. Most of the gamer friends I have I've only met through traveling to various places (not me going to them, but all of us going to a common location). For instance I've met Indurain and Trog on several occasions, but I've only been to Indurain's home once and never to Trog's. Trog's never been to my house (though not for lack of trying), and Indurain only has on the way to a common destination. Midnight Son is a truck driver. A job he took up because he took a two month motorcycle ride around the US and Canada and he liked it so much he got a job doing it. My last GM and his wife have a 38' boat that they've taken from Manhattan to Key West using intercoastal waterways. People who play games like DnD are a cross section of society and have the same varied interests that everyone else does.

[xPANCAKEx]

Lord Loss

you're overthinking. Stop that. Just ask her out already - doesnt have to be a big speach about your feelings and why you think she may be interested too, just a simple "hey, you fancy going out over winterbreak/after winter break, just the two of us" (ask as applicable to you)

worst she can really say is no. If you're best friends, you'll get through any resulting awkward patch.

alternatively, she may say yes... oh noes!

absolmorph

wise call on the annie thing

but onto your issue. One error i see in your game plan is you seem to be concentrating on one girl at a time. Stop that. Until you're in a relationship, you're still single, so act accordingly.

secondly - skip the "tell her how i feel" bit. Asking her out on a date will do that in a far less verbose fashion, and telling someone how you feel (especially someone who seems to have been under a lot of stress lately) is just a recipe for putting them on the spot. "I HAVE ALL THESE FEELINGS FOR YOU. So will you go out with me" - not good. Its almost like you're guilt tripping them. Fact of the matter is, when it comes to asking someone out, you're feelings matter very little. Its all about how she feels. If she wants to know how you feel about her, let her ask. And even then dont give the whole explaination without being prompted for more info.

obvious final point is obvious: Just make sure if you do go for her its because you're genuinely excited by her, not because she makes you feel good about yourself. Make sure you ask yourself that one seriously - you owe her that much respect.

If youre not 100 positive that its because she excites you (as opposed to being an ego boost) then ask yourself if you're ready to date again just yet after this whole annie thing. Theres no harm in taking time out from dating to rest and recoup

[Ytaker]

Oh, yeah, lots of dnd players I know do intracountry travel to go to tournaments, meet up with other players and stuff. Less I know of go to foreign, exotic places.

Only real exception I know is for Japan. Lotsa japonphiles in dnd, thanks to anime. I know at least one guy who went there and got a fairly hot girlfriend.

[Zeb The Troll]

Oh, yeah, lots of dnd players I know do intracountry travel to go to tournaments, meet up with other players and stuff. Less I know of go to foreign, exotic places.In my case, and I expect many others', this is a matter of lack of funding more than a lack of desire. If I lived in Europe I'd probably have visited each country by now instead of having only been outside my own (rather enormous) country only when Uncle Sam footed the bill.

[Sang Real]

Yesterday I was chatting with a couple girl friends about pick-up lines--a dating device I've never used because they're constantly being derided. None of us had ever heard a good pick-up line, though we all admitted that we don't even know what constitutes 'good' in this case.

I guess pick-ups are meant to be clumsy ice breakers, that provide the listener a built-in reason to say 'not interested'? ("That line is lame!") Have you ever heard a 'good' pick-up line?

[Asta Kask]

Sure, changing your personality for a girl might get you some sex...but if you hang around her for any extended period of time, she's going to notice that you're putting on a facade.
So not the best technique for a long-term relationship.

It depends. Personality is partly force of habit. If you consciously make a habit of behaving in a new way, it can get you sex in the short term and a stable relationship in the longer term. People change, and people can change themselves. But it's difficult.

[Alarra]

Personally, I love to travel and am very passionate about it. I think your assumption about gamers is flat out wrong.

As for pick-up lines, I think they're very useful, assuming that you aren't using them 'seriously'. I think they make a great start to a conversation when you deliver one that is clearly over the top in a way that is intended to make the person you are targeting laugh.

[absolmorph]

absolmorph

wise call on the annie thing

but onto your issue. One error i see in your game plan is you seem to be concentrating on one girl at a time. Stop that. Until you're in a relationship, you're still single, so act accordingly.
I kind of neglected to mention that I talk to both as much as possible, mostly by texting. From when I wake up to when they go to sleep.



secondly - skip the "tell her how i feel" bit. Asking her out on a date will do that in a far less verbose fashion, and telling someone how you feel (especially someone who seems to have been under a lot of stress lately) is just a recipe for putting them on the spot. "I HAVE ALL THESE FEELINGS FOR YOU. So will you go out with me" - not good. Its almost like you're guilt tripping them. Fact of the matter is, when it comes to asking someone out, you're feelings matter very little. Its all about how she feels. If she wants to know how you feel about her, let her ask. And even then dont give the whole explaination without being prompted for more info.
... Now that I think about it, that's a very valid point.



obvious final point is obvious: Just make sure if you do go for her its because you're genuinely excited by her, not because she makes you feel good about yourself. Make sure you ask yourself that one seriously - you owe her that much respect.

If youre not 100 positive that its because she excites you (as opposed to being an ego boost) then ask yourself if you're ready to date again just yet after this whole annie thing. Theres no harm in taking time out from dating to rest and recoup
I know that it's not just the ego boosting that interests me.
I'm also not jumping back into things this month.

[Eadin]

So.. No movie
He had too much work left to do.
He didn't ask for another time.
He used to ask me to come over all the time, now he doesn't anymore..
I don't really know what I should do now. Asking again would make me seem desperate...
I don't even know if he's still interested..

[Cobra_Ikari]

So.. No movie
He had too much work left to do.
He didn't ask for another time.
He used to ask me to come over all the time, now he doesn't anymore..
I don't really know what I should do now. Asking again would make me seem desperate...
I don't even know if he's still interested..

*hugs tight* =\

[xPANCAKEx]

you can either let it slide and leave it up to him - and in which case i recommend counting this as a "done and dusted". Leading yourself on with hope (false or not) is counter productive to getting on with your life

OR

talk to him. Be straight about it - see where you stand. If you want different things, work it out, stay friends. closure.

either way - make sure your goal in the situation is moving on from uncertainty

[littlebottom]

i usually avoid this thread, although, i am proberbly someone who needs all the advice i can get. BUT... today something weird happened.

there is a family who are friends of the family, or atleast, my grandparents(to whom i am very close to) and they met on holiday. being the only child of my father, who was the first child of his mother (my nan) im older than some people who are technically my fathers cousins. if that makes sense. so anyway, my grandparents friends have a daughter who is just about a year older than me, and of course, whenever the family comes round i go round to my grandparents too, and they are quite close friends of mine for around 5 or so years now. either way. tonight ive just found out that the daughter has actually fancied me for a few years now. secretly ive liked her for a while too(ok, that sounds really creepy if you think i am 14 or something, but im 19 so its not like that :smallredface:) but i always dismissed it as "shes just being kind towards you, it doesnt mean she likes you, dont ruin a good friendship"

apparently she started to like more as "more than a friend" since the day we faught with hot glue-gun- glue sticks. (not actually hot) :smallconfused: i dont know either, but apparently i make her laugh a lot.. ive still no idea why a glue stick fight would inspire love though :smalltongue:. we are (for now) going out. which is the weirdest thing in the world for me. im the pathetic one who never has anybody. im the geeky one who cant find anyone who likes geeks. im the insecure one unable to find anyone who could manage to over look my insecurities. but somehow ive found her without even knowing.

admittedly, this could still fall completely flat on its face within 24 hours, or a week, month, year whatever, but its a start, and its the best start ive gotten in my life for a lasting relationship. (the last "lasting" relationship i had was over 5 years ago, which lasted around a month... infact thats the only lasting relationship ive ever had.)

so i wanted to say this in this thread, since this is a story, that although i will admit would make me feel a little jelous reading it, it is a story which would endow me with atleast a little hope that it can happen even though your looking elsewhere and not even notice.:smallredface:

(as i said before, it might not last its only just begun. but the fact we were friends for several years before hand i hope will lend some help to it lasting... but i know me... theres a long and difficult road ahead if i want to keep things as they are, im the pro at messing up opportunities like this.)

[xPANCAKEx]

littlebottom

good for you! Dont start trying to be something you're not - clearly who you are works for the girl. Just carry on as is: a relationship is basically just a friendship on crack (quote meon that playgrounders), and clearly you've found a friendship that works for you an a whole next level

good times ahoy!

[Serpentine]

Oh, yeah, lots of dnd players I know do intracountry travel to go to tournaments, meet up with other players and stuff. Less I know of go to foreign, exotic places.

Only real exception I know is for Japan. Lotsa japonphiles in dnd, thanks to anime. I know at least one guy who went there and got a fairly hot girlfriend.I fully intend to travel all over the world as soon as I can. My super-nerd housemate has travelled to England, Ireland and various European countries multiple times. My boyfriend loves boxing (watching and doing), and, although he has no interest in travelling anywhere much for fun, would love to move out of this country as soon as he could (granted, mostly for socio-political reasons).
We all play Dungeons and Dragons - two of us DM.
You're simply flat-out wrong.

[Trog]

Wait, so now if you're a sophisticated gentleman of the world you're metrosexual? :smallconfused:
Actually, you know, after you asked this question I went and looked up metrosexual and it isn't defined that way at all, I guess. :smallconfused:

It's interesting though that the Metrosexual's Guidebook to Style, is, however, more of a guidebook for basic manly sophistication, really. Perhaps a bit of a misnomer then... but still a good read, really. So for some reason when someone says "Metrosexual" I think of that, rather than the apparently more correct definition. Weird. :smallconfused:

[Lord Loss]

@XpancakeX Aye. I figured that one out for myself after I stopped freaking out. I'll give it a shot on monday. *gulps*

[Ytaker]

I fully intend to travel all over the world as soon as I can. My super-nerd housemate has travelled to England, Ireland and various European countries multiple times. My boyfriend loves boxing (watching and doing), and, although he has no interest in travelling anywhere much for fun, would love to move out of this country as soon as he could (granted, mostly for socio-political reasons).
We all play Dungeons and Dragons - two of us DM.
You're simply flat-out wrong.

1/2 guys isn't too bad. You don't count as a guy who might be looking for love, 1 has travelled, 1 doesn't want to travel, but move away to somewhere permanently. Given the small size of the sample though, it's hard to say that I'm wrong or right about the demographics.

This also again indicates the problems of the solutions suggested in the story. Travelling is very expensive, and for many individuals the massive expenditure of money comes with its own problems that will complicate whatever they do.

So, in other words, what the story is telling you to do is either "be rich" or "get in debt" for women.

On metrosexuals.

http://dir.salon.com/ent/feature/2002/07/22/metrosexual/

This was one of the articles that helped spread the use of the term.

"The typical metrosexual is a young man with money to spend, living in or within easy reach of a metropolis -- because that's where all the best shops, clubs, gyms and hairdressers are. He might be officially gay, straight or bisexual, but this is utterly immaterial because he has clearly taken himself as his own love object and pleasure as his sexual preference. Particular professions, such as modeling, waiting tables, media, pop music and, nowadays, sport, seem to attract them but, truth be told, like male vanity products and herpes, they're pretty much everywhere. "

[Serpentine]

You said D&D-players don't like travelling. This is flat-out wrong, regardless of what I do or do not "count as".
Some D&D-players don't like travelling. Some people don't like travelling. Your generalisation is useless and applies no more to this category than to just about any other category.

[Ytaker]

If you're putting your gender as female, I'll count you as female, and so you don't count as a male dnd player. That's what I meant.

And I said less DnD players liked travelling (tended to travel less, to be precise), not that some didn't love travelling. The point was that the advice would be less useful for them than for members of the general populace because less actually wanted to go travelling. Not that all dnd players hate travelling.

If I'm right, then it would be useful as less wanted to travel. If you were trying to organize a trip to spain, then you would find it harder to find enough people to go, so you'd have to consider casting a wider net. If you're right then it would also be useful, as it would mean you didn't have to cast a wider net.

It could be that the lack of interest in it that I've seen is due to another trend, though. Lack of disposable income, meaning people can't travel, even if they wanted to. I'll ask around.

[Serpentine]

You said, and I quote, "dnd[sic] players" tend to be less interested in travelling. In my experience - in real life and on these forums - that is no more true than any other group of people, and sex does not come into it. You said D&D players like travelling less. I am a D&D player. Therefore, I count.
Please stop using baseless stereotypes and generalisations that are harmful, wrong, and apply no more to the group in question than to any other part of the population.

[Ytaker]

There are lots of groups that I know of that are especially interested in travelling abroad. Sports groups, because they want to see their teams play in foreign countries. Foreign students, as the reason they came here was to travel. They're continually arranging trips abroad, in contrast to no trips abroad for dnd groups here.

As for women vs men

http://www.gutsytraveler.com/mbbStatistics.html

Statistically

"75% of those who take cultural,
adventure or nature trips are women."

That's the thing. Travelling works as something to talk about because a lot of women want to go travelling for emotional reason. If your woe is that you can't find girls knowing these sorts of stereotypes is helpful.

I'll test whether the stereotype is useful. I often go to a large gathering of players. I'll see if there is interest in travelling. I mostly avoided the subject, because of said stereotype. I'll see what sort of level of interest there is in it next time I'm there.

[Serpentine]

Ugh, whatever. Just make sure you go to a large gathering of wine enthusiasts, of sport nuts, of school teachers, university students, retirees and other groups of people, too.

[Syka]

I have a small gaming group, and briefly got my boyfriend involved (he's more a console gamer).

Of the group, I was the only female. Currently, one is living abroad in Europe teaching...because he wanted to travel. The only reason I haven't traveled is lack of funds. Same with my boyfriend (he wants to travel BADLY). Another one is very much a homebody with no interest in travel. The last is not interested in travel only because, well, he's traveled. He's a military brat.

So, out of the guys, 2/4 want to travel; 1/4 has traveled. Only 25% has no desire to travel. I have another friend who games who travels (male). My Ex (definitely a dude) also had a desire to travel, stymied by the fact that while we were dating, we were minors.

However, I have plenty of other non-gamer friends. The spread seems to be about 50/50. Amongst guys and girls. Some want to travel, others don't. Gaming doesn't really seem to be a factor. Maybe because we have other interests, aside from gaming? I can see if gaming being your ONLY interest, that may be the case. But that would be an awful small sample size.




In any case, I think we can all agree on one thing- do activities you enjoy (whatever they may be, within reason), and that is the best way to find someone who wants to be in a relationship with you. Common interests and all that.

[Coidzor]

How, exactly, did we end up getting fixated on the relative incidence of table top roleplaying games enthusiasts traveling for personal pleasure?

And does it actually mean anything one way or the other?

[Trog]

How, exactly, did we end up getting fixated on the relative incidence of table top roleplaying games enthusiasts traveling for personal pleasure?

And does it actually mean anything one way or the other?

No it doesn't. Moving on. :smalltongue:

[Syka]

I hate how when you get sick, everyone else gets sick right after you get better.


And I get to deal with Christmas shoppers. It's going to be a fun night. I'll be nursing the cough drops.

[Dragonrider]

Have you ever heard a 'good' pick-up line?

While these are not "good", I have a friend who says she would be instantly charmed by:

"Don't I know you from the cinematographer's party?"

I'm fairly certain that song is entirely about pickup lines. I could make an argument for "Why don't we get together and call ourselves an institute" as well, but that's a different song.

[Innis Cabal]

There are lots of groups that I know of that are especially interested in travelling abroad. Sports groups, because they want to see their teams play in foreign countries. Foreign students, as the reason they came here was to travel. They're continually arranging trips abroad, in contrast to no trips abroad for dnd groups here.

As for women vs men

http://www.gutsytraveler.com/mbbStatistics.html

Statistically

"75% of those who take cultural,
adventure or nature trips are women."

That's the thing. Travelling works as something to talk about because a lot of women want to go travelling for emotional reason. If your woe is that you can't find girls knowing these sorts of stereotypes is helpful.

I'll test whether the stereotype is useful. I often go to a large gathering of players. I'll see if there is interest in travelling. I mostly avoided the subject, because of said stereotype. I'll see what sort of level of interest there is in it next time I'm there.

You're going about your test completely wrong. Your sample group is far to small to gather any useful information other then "Group X I know seems not to like to go places." That isn't how you prove a theory, if you are even stating your opinion -as- a theory.

I am a male. I am a DND player. I like to travel. In fact, I have been to 47 of the 50 United States on my own decision. Been to Toronto, Mexico City, London, Glasgow and Dublin and plan to go to Osaka and The Hague in the next few years. All of these were on my own decision. I would like to see your "Gutsy traveler's" study pool because frankly the Travel Channel knows about as much on travel as a swallow.

[Coidzor]

While these are not "good", I have a friend who says she would be instantly charmed by:

"Don't I know you from the cinematographer's party?"

I'm fairly certain that song is entirely about pickup lines. I could make an argument for "Why don't we get together and call ourselves an institute" as well, but that's a different song.

As in singing the entire song or just laying down the reference by stating the songs' titles? :smallconfused:

[Serpentine]

I would like to see your "Gutsy traveler's" study pool because frankly the Travel Channel knows about as much on travel as a swallow.African or European?

Argck! *punches self*

[Dragonrider]

As in singing the entire song or just laying down the reference by stating the songs' titles? :smallconfused:

As in the pickup line from the song: "Hey, don't I know you from the cinematographer's party?" Which is exactly what I said. :smalltongue:

[Innis Cabal]

African or European?

Argck! *punches self*

Truly you are my nemesis.

[Sang Real]

While these are not "good", I have a friend who says she would be instantly charmed by:

"Don't I know you from the cinematographer's party?"

I'm fairly certain that song is entirely about pickup lines.
Ya know, now that I think about it...I think you're right! :smalleek: I never thought about that song that way. Although Paul also wrote a song about leaving a lover for another, so I shouldn't be surprised. Anyway, I can't wait to use a Paul pick-up:

"You move so easily, all I can think of is sunlight."
"Aren't you the woman who was recently given a Fullbright?" (Okay, maybe not this one.)

[Demon 997]

Some very good news: Me and my ex are back together. We'd been texting each other, and it eventually came out that we missed each other for the same reasons. I managed to convince her to take the risk, so here we are. No one else knows yet, and I imagine things will be difficult with her parents (my parents like her, and I doubt they'll have a problem with it.) Right now I'm trying to figure out if I can see her again before she goes down to California on the 25th.

So how do we convince her parents that I'm not evil? Apparently they "weren't to keen on it the first time round" so things could be difficult. EDIT: Apparently she's been talking to her mom every times shes upset (so just about anytime we were talking about us). Still with any luck her dad doesn't know the details, and he's the one conditioned to hate me.

But besides that: YAY! :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

We managed to time us getting back together to the eclipse pretty much too.

[Lillith]

Ho boy tomorrow is going to be something. Going to pick up my bf, which I haven't seen for 4 months, at the airport. Now this is going to be funny, I hate driving and I hate driving in the snow, I also hate waking up anywhere before 8am.
So of course I have to drive for 2 hours in 20 cm high snow at 6am. Yay stress!

My boyfriend hates flying, especially long flights, is afraid of heights and can't deal with jetlags at all. Yay stressed too!

So yeah, I don't expect either of us being in a very cheery mood when we see each other. Oh well. :smalltongue: At least we get to spend Christmas together.

[absolmorph]

... I confuse the hell out of myself. I'm still completely astounded.
Last night, I was talking to a female friend who had (to the knowledge of everyone else) come close to dating a male friend. We started talking a bit in October, and she told me that the guy had stopped talking to her. Said guy had also left for Spain at the beginning of September, and around the beginning of October Facebook said he was dating another girl. As it turns out, he hadn't had feelings for her and he'd been leading her on.
My friend was talking about how he's got a girlfriend who's so much better looking than her, "actually has a figure" (actual quote) and blah, blah, blah. I told her that I think she's pretty and that she shouldn't worry about one dumbass not wanting to date her. She then makes a comment about people thinking she's pretty like a doll but not wanting to actually do anything with her.
Next thing I know, I asked her on a date.
NOT AS PLANNED. (http://www.myfacewhen.com/images/248.gif)
Seriously, what the F***, self?

[Serpentine]

So... do you want to?

[absolmorph]

So... do you want to?
Yeah, I just confused myself.

[Serpentine]

Well, in that case... Good for you, well done :smallsmile:

[Dragonrider]

Ya know, now that I think about it...I think you're right! :smalleek:

It only works if you say "Who am I to blow against the wind" in response, though, identifying yourself as a fellow diehard. :smalltongue:


Although Paul also wrote a song about leaving a lover for another, so I shouldn't be surprised.

The song is more tongue in cheek than that, though, I think. (Not that I Know What I Know isn't. It's very tongue in cheek.) :smalltongue:

[Demon 997]

Well my love life went to **** real fast. I'll get more into it later. I have a paper to do right now. :smallfrown:

[Heliomance]

Yesterday I was chatting with a couple girl friends about pick-up lines--a dating device I've never used because they're constantly being derided. None of us had ever heard a good pick-up line, though we all admitted that we don't even know what constitutes 'good' in this case.

I guess pick-ups are meant to be clumsy ice breakers, that provide the listener a built-in reason to say 'not interested'? ("That line is lame!") Have you ever heard a 'good' pick-up line?

One that I quite like, though have never had the guts to use:

"Ten ton polar bear."
"Buh?"
"Well, I don't know, but it broke the ice, didn't it?"

[Malfunctioned]

Kinda long somewhat babbling ahead....

Oookay, so at college I ended up saying to Other Girl I still have feelings for her (which is true) and that I wasn't sure whether B was still interested in me (which is also true), she ended up holding my hand and we were pretty close for the remainder of that day. I'm not sure how but we ended up saying that we might give 'us' another chance after the Christmas holidays.


Of course now I've found out B still really does have feelings for me whilst Other Girl is somewhat acting like we're already kinda together.

As well as that there's also something else on my mind and that would happen to be T again and I'm blaming the god-damn snow.

Basically at many pivotal points in our relationship it was snowing, me walking back from a friends house in the middle of the night in the middle of an almost blizzard just brought back incredibly strong memories of all the good parts of our relationship. It hurts like a bitch basically.

Of course I'm not going back to the wanting to be with her again thing, I just really miss who she was whilst we were together and so I can get her out of my mind along with sorting out the rest of it I announced that I'm avoiding relationships for the near future.

ION: I kinda realised something by talking to Other Girl. She's quite.... unintelligent, and even though I think it sounds quite bad I'm not sure if I could really be with someone who isn't really that smart or just doesn't have an interest in literature, especially given my dream of becoming a published author. So yeah, when I do get back into the mindset that I think I need to be in for a relationship, I don't think I'll be going for her.

Also, for the pickup lines things... (One that actually worked for me whilst drunk)
Me: I don't think I've kissed you so far tonight.
Her: No. You haven't. (Proceeds to do so)
Me: ....How the **** did that work?

[Trellan]

I've always been a fan of the ridiculously corny pickup lines that are impossible to deliver seriously. Think one of my favorites has to be "I lost my number, can I have yours?"

[enigmatime]

Yesterday I was chatting with a couple girl friends about pick-up lines--a dating device I've never used because they're constantly being derided. None of us had ever heard a good pick-up line, though we all admitted that we don't even know what constitutes 'good' in this case.

I guess pick-ups are meant to be clumsy ice breakers, that provide the listener a built-in reason to say 'not interested'? ("That line is lame!") Have you ever heard a 'good' pick-up line?

"Is that a sonic screwdriver in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?" :smallbiggrin:

[Zeb The Troll]

Bug fix post.

[absolmorph]

I've become a fan of "Hello, miss, would you be willing to help me test the orgasmic properties of various fruits and vegetables?" recently.

[akma]

As for pickup lines, you could try saying: "Hey, my name is X"
And here are some translated that are cliche in Israel:
1. So... Do you come here often?
2. Was your father a gardener that you ended growing up to be such a flower?
3. Did it hurt when you fell from heaven? (I actully said that once to someone who wore a devil costume, but I didn`t plan on hitting on her)

[Jokasti]

If I were to ask if I could sleep with you right now, would the answer to that question be the same as the answer to this question?

Proceed to nap with unwitting targets.

[MountainKing]

Well, I didn't get the job as I feared I would, though I suspect there might be more to it than just my lack of certifications (though, that'd be me feeling grumbly and spiteful, so I won't go into it). A and I are still very close friends, but we did talk while I was there, about the fact that she feels attraction to more men than just myself, and doesn't want to be just tied down in one place and such. She wants to be able to do things that she wants, whenever she wants, and not be chained to other people. To all of those things, I responded positively and with support, because we've had that conversation before, and it's how I genuinely feel about the whole thing.

Then, I had a brilliant idea: I called my friend S. S, is dabbling a bit in the realms of polyamory, and has been doing a lot of reading on the matter, and frankly, she's got far more experience with how polyamorous relationships work than I do.

S was... ah, a little busy. >3> We all had a good laugh about it later, because the next day, I texted her a second time (she'd let my call go to voicemail, so I'd texted her the night before, to which she responded), and again she was, ah, a little busy. x3 So in the interim, I suggested to A that maybe, she's not a mono-amorous (I still don't think that's a proper term for it) person, as well as suggesting that, the only thing really stopping her from being in relationships with other people, was basically herself. She took it positively, and we agreed that we'd do some reading together, and see what happens down the road.

In the meanwhile, I need to get an appointment with S, and ASAP. My shoulder's been giving me all kinds of crazy muscle aches for about a week now, and as some may recall, S is the Ukrainian massage therapist I know. :smallbiggrin:

ALSO, during my little adventure, I met Coidzor. Serp is right; he IS fuzzy. x3 He's also a really good dude. I wish I had more thumbs; two thumbs up doesn't do him justice. :smallsmile:

[Malfunctioned]

So Malfunctioned had a friends birthday a couple of days ago and since he has a very high tolerance to alcohol he ended up being the only sober one out of his friends on a long bus ride home. One of these friends is the person referenced a couple of times before as Brain, whom Malfunctioned has a crush on but accepts she's in a relationship and all that so doesn't act on it. It ended up me and here alone on the last leg of the trip (I could of got off about half an hour earlier but I wasn't about to leave a drunk girl alone at night), we ended up talking about relationships and she started asking about mine.

Brain: I don't get it with you, you're like really attractive and you've always got a load of girls after you yet you're never with anyone. Why not?
Me: Basically I'm an idiot and I think I might subconsciously sabotage any chance of a relationship I get.
Brain: Oh, I know that, I mean even though I'm with -boyfriend- I'm always thinking 'Wow, that person's really attractive, maybe I should be with them', I mean if I wasn't with him then I'd probably be all over you right this moment.
Me:.....What....I mean, yeah, isn't this our stop?


So yeah....I'm still staying away from relationships for a while, that's just kinda on my mind now. Hopefully she won't remember saying that stuff when we next meet up. I hope. :smalltongue:

[Lillith]

*sigh* So I sure had a whole different image of this Christmas and my boyfriend visiting. He's sick, again. He's been here 3 times and all 3 times has he gotten sick. I don't know, maybe it's coincidence, maybe he just worries so much about flying that his body gets sick. It still bothers him a lot though and while I do feel sorry for him and try to take care of him, it kind of ruins the whole visit. Cause he's almost constantly in bed, if I try to have a bit of a conversation with him, the responses are pretty much only grunts or none at all. He doesn't want to do anything, not even in the you know where, that's how tired he is. So basically I'm stuck babysitting him until he goes home next week. Don't get me wrong, I love him and I don't blame him for being sick. It's just that I rarely see him, and most likely I won't see him till next year August after he leaves. So now that he was here I just wanted to do something with him, even if it was just hanging on the couch all day, trying to beat each other at some game. It frustrates me so much I already had two cry breakdowns cause I'm selfish enough to think that this is so not fair at all. I don't know how to handle this really. I want to be mad, yell at him, scream at him, but it's not his fault. He doesn't like being sick either. So I just sigh and try to tell myself that if this is a lasting relationship, then in two years I'll have all the time with him that I want. That a relationship shouldn't only be about talking and doing stuff together, but also about taking care of the other person when they're not feeling well and that there's always next time. So I smile and bring him another glass of cold water and vitamin tablets. Be nice to him. But dammit I spend a lot of money on new underwear to impress him! And now he doesn't even see me, notice me, or respond to anything I say. Gah stupid common cold how are you annoying! You spite me with your weakening symptoms! Making my boyfriend sick, how dear you. That guy has enough on his plate as is and you drop by and make him literally ill!

Anyways, Christmas eve, while hard on him, seemed to lighten up his mood a bit. He seemed happy with his presents. Sadly he went to bed right after and now I'm sitting here kinda type ranting my thoughts. I had hoped we could talk a bit but he was tired the poor thing. *sigh* I just hope he'll feel better soon and that next time we meet it will be more fun for the both of us.

tl;dr: I'm a whiny little b****.

[MountainKing]

*sigh* So I sure had a whole different image of this Christmas and my boyfriend visiting. He's sick, again. He's been here 3 times and all 3 times has he gotten sick. I don't know, maybe it's coincidence, maybe he just worries so much about flying that his body gets sick. It still bothers him a lot though and while I do feel sorry for him and try to take care of him, it kind of ruins the whole visit. Cause he's almost constantly in bed, if I try to have a bit of a conversation with him, the responses are pretty much only grunts or none at all. He doesn't want to do anything, not even in the you know where, that's how tired he is. So basically I'm stuck babysitting him until he goes home next week. Don't get me wrong, I love him and I don't blame him for being sick. It's just that I rarely see him, and most likely I won't see him till next year August after he leaves. So now that he was here I just wanted to do something with him, even if it was just hanging on the couch all day, trying to beat each other at some game. It frustrates me so much I already had two cry breakdowns cause I'm selfish enough to think that this is so not fair at all. I don't know how to handle this really. I want to be mad, yell at him, scream at him, but it's not his fault. He doesn't like being sick either. So I just sigh and try to tell myself that if this is a lasting relationship, then in two years I'll have all the time with him that I want. That a relationship shouldn't only be about talking and doing stuff together, but also about taking care of the other person when they're not feeling well and that there's always next time. So I smile and bring him another glass of cold water and vitamin tablets. Be nice to him. But dammit I spend a lot of money on new underwear to impress him! And now he doesn't even see me, notice me, or respond to anything I say. Gah stupid common cold how are you annoying! You spite me with your weakening symptoms! Making my boyfriend sick, how dear you. That guy has enough on his plate as is and you drop by and make him literally ill!

Anyways, Christmas eve, while hard on him, seemed to lighten up his mood a bit. He seemed happy with his presents. Sadly he went to bed right after and now I'm sitting here kinda type ranting my thoughts. I had hoped we could talk a bit but he was tired the poor thing. *sigh* I just hope he'll feel better soon and that next time we meet it will be more fun for the both of us.

tl;dr: I'm a whiny little b****.

You know, there's a lot there, but, the only thing that really jumps out at me as out of place (other than the blatant self deprication, which you need to stop, btw), is the part that I bolded.

Seriously? A cold? How on Earth is a cold doing that? :smallconfused:

[arguskos]

You know, there's a lot there, but, the only thing that really jumps out at me as out of place (other than the blatant self deprication, which you need to stop, btw), is the part that I bolded.

Seriously? A cold? How on Earth is a cold doing that? :smallconfused:
How is a cold being annoying? Seems self-evident to me. Colds sap desire and energy, at least they always do for me. I mostly want to curl up with my computer and comfy blankets and do nothing. Sounds like Lillith's boy is much the same.

Also, check it, I got me own question.
So, I took a friend to the movies yesterday as my christmas present to him. It was a damn expensive film (TRON in 3D, $15.50 USD a ticket), something we both knew. Afterwards, I didn't get a thank you, and he bitched about how bad the movie was for 30+ minutes. I chalked it up to his family being stressful, but dammit, it's bothering me. Who the **** is that rude? I bought you something nice, cause you've been a good friend this year, and you throw it in my face by bitching and failing to even say "thanks".

This is both a venting post and a question to folks. What do you guys do/say/think when you do something nice for someone you're close to and they throw it in your face without so much as a whoopsie-daisy?

[Lillith]

Yeah I'm thinking it's a common cold. He didn't feel very well when he came here, now he's talking about how his throat hurt and has no energy whatsoever. Heavy head. Wants to curl up and sleep all day. I got that sometimes too when I have it only I'm not a ***** and just bite through it but I don't have to deal with a 9 hour jetlag and a cold. So I'm guessing it's the combination that's making it bad for him.

But yeah, it's like he's not even here cause he's in bed all day and I kinda just... have to go through my day like I usually do without him. Not really how I imagined things to happen you know. :smallannoyed:


This is both a venting post and a question to folks. What do you guys do/say/think when you do something nice for someone you're close to and they throw it in your face without so much as a whoopsie-daisy?

I'm sort of dealing with that right now. I'm pretty much catering to someone who's sick but do I get a thank you, or an 'I love you' back? Nooooo. Nah just joking. Anyways I do know the feeling. It's really hard. Usually I just suck it up and see if this happens on a regular basis. If so then... I stop doing nice things... and if it's not regular I chalk it up to circumstantial things.

[MountainKing]

How is a cold being annoying? Seems self-evident to me. Colds sap desire and energy, at least they always do for me. I mostly want to curl up with my computer and comfy blankets and do nothing. Sounds like Lillith's boy is much the same.

Also, check it, I got me own question.
So, I took a friend to the movies yesterday as my christmas present to him. It was a damn expensive film (TRON in 3D, $15.50 USD a ticket), something we both knew. Afterwards, I didn't get a thank you, and he bitched about how bad the movie was for 30+ minutes. I chalked it up to his family being stressful, but dammit, it's bothering me. Who the **** is that rude? I bought you something nice, cause you've been a good friend this year, and you throw it in my face by bitching and failing to even say "thanks".

This is both a venting post and a question to folks. What do you guys do/say/think when you do something nice for someone you're close to and they throw it in your face without so much as a whoopsie-daisy?

I have never been that debilitated by a cold... the concept is pretty much totally foreign to me. :smallconfused: However, I will say this: expensive or not, movies are terrible gifts unless you already know the person is going to like them. For example, for Christmas, my father is getting The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, and my siblings are getting the complete series of Transformers to share. I happen to know for a fact that these will be well received. I contemplated getting my dad an old Bond movie instead, but I've never seen him be terribly impressed by those; hence the Western. A few years ago, I bought him Lonesome Dove on DVD, because he was complaining that he couldn't find his VHS of it; he watches it every few months.

I think, perhaps, you took an extra risk by choosing Tron, as well. As I understand, it's already been done... which makes it especially choppy waters. Geeks and nerds are notoriously fickle about their remakes; I still recall vividly the absolute bloodletting that took place before the credits even started to roll after Eragon. *shudders*

[Altaria87]

Hey there, Relationship Woes and Advice people.
While I've never poster in this Thread before, and am not a frequent poster at all in this section of the Forum. However, the Playground is always a good place to go to get advice, so I thought I'd see if I can get any help here. So, here's the situation (spoilered because it's a bit long):
Three years ago, there was a girl in my school who I had a very large crush on, as tends to happen at High School. However, she then left at the end of that year, due to her parents splitting up. What was strange is that I never really moved on from her, whereas there are many in the school now who can't even remember her.
So, anyway, about two months ago, I succumbed to peer pressure and created a Facebook account. A month later, this girl added me on Facebook, and then proceeeded to talk to me on Facebook Chat [which, for those who are wondering, is vastly inferior to all other forms of Instant Messaging]. Basically, over the next two weeks we talked quite a lot (her shoddy Internet connection getting in the way slightly - more on that later), and eventually moved on to talking about who we liked back when we were at the same school. It then became apparent that my feeling for her were, in fact, requieted. Also, during that time we tossed around the idea of meeting up quite a bit.
However, two weeks ago - as anyone here from the UK (especially the North) will know, the snow hit. Not only did this make meeting up impossible for the forseeable future, since we both live in a rather 'backwards' area of the UK, where in particularly cold weather, roads are just too bad to travel tot he next town, but it also further aggravted the problem of her terrible internet connection, meaning our chats had much larger gaps inbetween. So, I 'upped my game' so to speak and started using more 'flirty' language when talking to her (random compliments, 'x's after saying goodbye and the like), which she seems to have no problem with, and I also aqquired her phone number.
After talking to a few IRL friends about the situation. While they agree I have a definite chance of starting a relationship, they are unsure as I am as to what to do.
So, have the people of this Thread any ideas as to what I should do? My first thought was to wait for the poor weather conditions to clear, make an (inevitably clumsy) explanation of my feelings via the Internet, then ask her out somehow. But, somehow, I doubt this is the best idea. So, help? xD

[Daimbert]

So Malfunctioned had a friends birthday a couple of days ago and since he has a very high tolerance to alcohol he ended up being the only sober one out of his friends on a long bus ride home. One of these friends is the person referenced a couple of times before as Brain, whom Malfunctioned has a crush on but accepts she's in a relationship and all that so doesn't act on it. It ended up me and here alone on the last leg of the trip (I could of got off about half an hour earlier but I wasn't about to leave a drunk girl alone at night), we ended up talking about relationships and she started asking about mine.

Brain: I don't get it with you, you're like really attractive and you've always got a load of girls after you yet you're never with anyone. Why not?
Me: Basically I'm an idiot and I think I might subconsciously sabotage any chance of a relationship I get.
Brain: Oh, I know that, I mean even though I'm with -boyfriend- I'm always thinking 'Wow, that person's really attractive, maybe I should be with them', I mean if I wasn't with him then I'd probably be all over you right this moment.
Me:.....What....I mean, yeah, isn't this our stop?


So yeah....I'm still staying away from relationships for a while, that's just kinda on my mind now. Hopefully she won't remember saying that stuff when we next meet up. I hope. :smalltongue:

I wouldn't read anything into what she said; it's just the sort of thing a lot of women say to their unattached male friends.

Oh, and Altaria, you have her phone number and I guess you aren't scared of her knowing that you have. Thus, you should call her, and have a conversation. Falling into a pattern of phone calls also gives you a great opportunity to actually ask her to meet when the weather improves.

[Scoot]

Me again. Not a solvable problem, just me being bummed.


So, I waited a month, gave myself time to think, time to cool down. I got the point where I accepted the fact that she's pretty much "gone forever", and there's nothing I can do about it, but it still bugged me that she never really knew how I felt about her and the entire situation.

So, I told her (Bad thing, I know). Over FB again, to give myself time to articulate my thoughts.

I told her that I didn't expect a response, and that I didn't even want one. I tried to make it very clear that I was trying to move on, and that she didn't need to care anymore.

But of course, she replies, and this is what gets me sad.

Apparently, the only reason she dropped me in the first place, was that she didn't think that I actually cared.

So, for the second time in my life, I lost someone due to apparent apathy. :smallsigh:

I need to learn how to express myself. :smallannoyed:

[MountainKing]

Kisses on the cheek and holding hands are a good start.

[Malfunctioned]

I wouldn't read anything into what she said; it's just the sort of thing a lot of women say to their unattached male friends.


I normally would just blow it off but the fact she also spent most of the night complementing my looks and telling me how I'm an incredible person and she's so glad she met me is hanging on my mind.

But aside from that I think me deciding to go off relationships has made my brain decide to hate me and make me want to be with B even more whilst I'm trying to stop myself from going with that and then it somehow collapsing around me due to my own subconscious sabotaging.

[xPANCAKEx]

Lillith

stop whining on the internet and tell him how you feel. Tell him "look - i know you're unwell, but we rarely see each other, so please, can we just hang out on the couch and spend some time together". Either that, or be proactive and move the tv to the bedroom so you can hang out in bed together.

If he complains about that, then in all seriousness, send him home.

Theres no point in you making all the effort if he doesnt make some in return. A cold is rubbish, but unless hes got full blown flu and running a fever, then man-flu is a cop out.

Scoot

expressing yourself: good

expressing yourself over fb chat: bad.

the latter option is tres impersonal. Even if you only do little things, doing them at the right time at the right place is what will really make things count. But you're living and learning, so keep your chin up.

Altaria87

You have her number? this a good thing. The snow is now disapaiting, but the problem is its x-mas, so that means family time. Wait til a few days after, drop her a line and ask her to go out somewhere. Telling her how you felt will just add unneccessary pressure to the situation, so scratch that idea. Meet up, see how it is in person. If you still find yourself attracted to who she is now (not who she was then), and have a good time, then tell her ask to see her again, keep the ball rolling. If you feel the time is right, make a move. But just bluntly telling someone how you feel/felt without some sort of swift follow up plan, it never goes well. As ive said recently in a different post: its not about how you feel about them that matters, its about how they feel about you, and your own feelings will have no sway over that.

[junglesteve]

Alright some of you might remember me recently getting stood up. Well I ****ed up now. A lady who has known me since we were like 13 and has been in my circle of friends - not really a friend per se just an acquaintance and only now have we started becoming friends. Anyway, we've been texting each other a lot lately. I honestly just took her as one of those 'one of the guys' ladies. She is easy to joke around with and talk to blah blah blah. Well 90% of our talking the past month is usually flirting but like.. extreme flirting haha. Over the top ****. So ridiculous I thought it was all fun and jokes. Example - during thanks giving I had my first black out during which apparently I was flashing my penis around. So our conversations usually start with some random comment about my penis.

Ok yesterday I was texting her she was heading back up to town for xmas break from whatever university she is attending her masters program at. We're joking around and as she is approaching town, probably a half hour away, she shoots me a text. "Quick question where are you currently living?" I reply "I've been looking for an apartment so right now I am bouncing around between friends and my moms" (classy I know)

She replies "Hmm... unacceptable! This is not conducive to my plans." She doesn't send another text for awhile so i send her a text " If you need a place to hang out I can use my friend adam's place." She replies "Hmm who the hell is adam" I explain who he is then she sends another text "Meet me at *random bar* down town lets get some beer." And I am like **** yeah!

Unfortunately I am an oblivious **** head, what is plain as day I did not notice. After talking with my friend adam about hanging at his place he wanted to join us... I said yes... she ends up bailing out and sending me a text that she has to comfort her friend who was just in some break up....

Think i can salvage my idiocy?

[Sang Real]

Also, for the pickup lines things... (One that actually worked for me whilst drunk)
Me: I don't think I've kissed you so far tonight.
Her: No. You haven't. (Proceeds to do so)
Me: ....How the **** did that work?
Nice. :smallcool:

Reminds me of the friend I chatted with at a bar. He was sloshed, and we were discussing what the point of getting laid while drunk is. I've never been drunk, so ya know, I thought heavy inebriation pretty much wipes everything off the brain. A woman friend-of-a-friend hears us talking and next thing I know they're all over each other. (The only reason they didn't go home together was that he was a little too sloshed to perform.)

Go figure.

[Ceric]

(Disclaimer: Christmas blues)
(Second disclaimer: I have no idea if any of this makes sense, I'm just venting)

:smallsigh: It's been more than 3 months since he broke up with me and I still feel like crap about it. (Those who remember my last post here, no, I didn't ask him why... I figured that I might as well assume the kindest answer for myself and get on with my life, since even the kindest answer wouldn't change anything anyways.) 'Course, I still like him and, if he was receptive, I'd want to get back together with him. Not if he didn't want to, of course, because then what's the point. So whenever we see each other (we're still friends) I'm desparately overanalyzing for any sign of him still liking me. It's terribly confusing and annoying (the results of the analysis being confusing, the recognized futility of overanalysis (and my recognized persistance) being annoying). This doesn't happen often because we go to different schools. But I'm home for break now so I've seen him twice over the last two weeks. And I have noticed that I feel better and better until I see him again :smallsigh:

On overanalysis (kind of):Well, overanalysis - or at least trying to make sense of what's happening - doesn't seem too out-of-place when just a couple of days ago we were out with a bunch of friends and playing Truth or Dare (in combination with another game, no, nothing dirty) and it was my turn and a mutual friend asked if I/we still had lingering feelings for each other. And truthfully, I knew it'd be that question in some form or other, and wanted it, which is why I asked for a Truth... I want to tell him that I still like him... but I'm terribly unused to expressing myself and don't want to say it. (Gah! I wish I did :smallsigh:) So I managed to wuss around and avoid the question until someone else gave me another, easier one. Him, in fact. He asked me about a guy I'd mentioned that I'd met at my new school and who seemed to like me and that I hadn't mentioned again in the last few months. I hadn't mentioned him because I hadn't seen him, which I'd been relieved about because I hadn't liked him much anyways, so I explained that. So of course, afterwards, I went back and thought about it and want to know if he asked that out of concern for me getting creeped on (he knows my roommate and thus my dorm room) or out of jealousy. Despite my hopes, I'll be pessimistic and assume the former.

I'm not a very social person... I have a small circle of friends and that's usually enough for me but, well, he's in that circle of friends too which is why we keep seeing each other and why I can't stop seeing him. Also it's break so there's not a lot of other people around anyways. (And Christmas makes me feel lonely anyways because for two straight days we go see relatives that we usually don't see and I know just well enough to chat about general topics but it tires me out socially. Er, I just realized that makes no sense. It makes me lonely because I realize that I don't know people, and that makes me want to hang out with actual friends instead and assure myself that I'm not an insanely introverted loner? I don't even know. :smallsigh:) And it's lonely not being in a relationship, because last year was when I got my first boyfriend and when I actually used my cell phone to chat for hours instead of asking my mom to pick me up after school. Now my list of recent calls is back to Home, Home, Mom, Dad, Sister, Home, maybe one or two friends, all separated by a few days or even weeks. So I'm back to being a freakish loner exactly like I was a year ago but now that I've actually been close to someone I'm finally realizing how freakish it is. Wow I sound pathetic. But it felt so nice to finally have someone hold me and not let me stand by myself :smallfrown: And I know I should just get out there and make more friends and be a better friend and work on my social skills and everything. And date or something. But I've never really dated before, because ex and I both liked each other and kinda eventually finally got together (at prom night, after completely omitting to discuss whether we were going as friends or not beforehand :smalltongue:) and everyone was all WE SAW THIS COMING :D, so I still don't know how to start. Well, actually, I joined a club at my new school. That seemed to work last time. But I'm really not fast at making friends (despite new club being extremely friendly and welcoming; I'm just bad at it) and besides I don't want to date someone in such a small circle again anyways because this current ex situation is very painful/annoying and I don't want to keep repeating it, so there's that plan shot down.

Guahhh :smallsigh:

Hmm, I better come up with a tl;dr...

Nah, if you don't read it that's fine, just hug me and move on :smallsigh: I should feel better in a few days. Skiing at Tahoe makes me feel good :smallsmile: Possibly less good because I've just discovered that ex also skis at almost the same place, just last week... but I think I'll stop there >>

[junglesteve]

(Disclaimer: Christmas blues)
(Second disclaimer: I have no idea if any of this makes sense, I'm just venting)

:smallsigh: It's been more than 3 months since he broke up with me and I still feel like crap about it. (Those who remember my last post here, no, I didn't ask him why... I figured that I might as well assume the kindest answer for myself and get on with my life, since even the kindest answer wouldn't change anything anyways.) 'Course, I still like him and, if he was receptive, I'd want to get back together with him. Not if he didn't want to, of course, because then what's the point. So whenever we see each other (we're still friends) I'm desparately overanalyzing for any sign of him still liking me. It's terribly confusing and annoying (the results of the analysis being confusing, the recognized futility of overanalysis (and my recognized persistance) being annoying). This doesn't happen often because we go to different schools. But I'm home for break now so I've seen him twice over the last two weeks. And I have noticed that I feel better and better until I see him again :smallsigh:

On overanalysis (kind of):Well, overanalysis - or at least trying to make sense of what's happening - doesn't seem too out-of-place when just a couple of days ago we were out with a bunch of friends and playing Truth or Dare (in combination with another game, no, nothing dirty) and it was my turn and a mutual friend asked if I/we still had lingering feelings for each other. And truthfully, I knew it'd be that question in some form or other, and wanted it, which is why I asked for a Truth... I want to tell him that I still like him... but I'm terribly unused to expressing myself and don't want to say it. (Gah! I wish I did :smallsigh:) So I managed to wuss around and avoid the question until someone else gave me another, easier one. Him, in fact. He asked me about a guy I'd mentioned that I'd met at my new school and who seemed to like me and that I hadn't mentioned again in the last few months. I hadn't mentioned him because I hadn't seen him, which I'd been relieved about because I hadn't liked him much anyways, so I explained that. So of course, afterwards, I went back and thought about it and want to know if he asked that out of concern for me getting creeped on (he knows my roommate and thus my dorm room) or out of jealousy. Despite my hopes, I'll be pessimistic and assume the former.

I'm not a very social person... I have a small circle of friends and that's usually enough for me but, well, he's in that circle of friends too which is why we keep seeing each other and why I can't stop seeing him. Also it's break so there's not a lot of other people around anyways. (And Christmas makes me feel lonely anyways because for two straight days we go see relatives that we usually don't see and I know just well enough to chat about general topics but it tires me out socially. Er, I just realized that makes no sense. It makes me lonely because I realize that I don't know people, and that makes me want to hang out with actual friends instead and assure myself that I'm not an insanely introverted loner? I don't even know. :smallsigh:) And it's lonely not being in a relationship, because last year was when I got my first boyfriend and when I actually used my cell phone to chat for hours instead of asking my mom to pick me up after school. Now my list of recent calls is back to Home, Home, Mom, Dad, Sister, Home, maybe one or two friends, all separated by a few days or even weeks. So I'm back to being a freakish loner exactly like I was a year ago but now that I've actually been close to someone I'm finally realizing how freakish it is. Wow I sound pathetic. But it felt so nice to finally have someone hold me and not let me stand by myself :smallfrown: And I know I should just get out there and make more friends and be a better friend and work on my social skills and everything. And date or something. But I've never really dated before, because ex and I both liked each other and kinda eventually finally got together (at prom night, after completely omitting to discuss whether we were going as friends or not beforehand :smalltongue:) and everyone was all WE SAW THIS COMING :D, so I still don't know how to start. Well, actually, I joined a club at my new school. That seemed to work last time. But I'm really not fast at making friends (despite new club being extremely friendly and welcoming; I'm just bad at it) and besides I don't want to date someone in such a small circle again anyways because this current ex situation is very painful/annoying and I don't want to keep repeating it, so there's that plan shot down.

Guahhh :smallsigh:

Hmm, I better come up with a tl;dr...

Nah, if you don't read it that's fine, just hug me and move on :smallsigh: I should feel better in a few days. Skiing at Tahoe makes me feel good :smallsmile: Possibly less good because I've just discovered that ex also skis at almost the same place, just last week... but I think I'll stop there >>

I hope this doesnt come off as rude but how old are you? I only ask because it sounds as if you're high school age.

Anyway I suck at advice but if you're lonely because you're not in a relationship I say that means you need to become more independent or something. Just my ****ty two cents.

[Ceric]

I hope this doesnt come off as rude but how old are you? I only ask because it sounds as if you're high school age.

Anyway I suck at advice but if you're lonely because you're not in a relationship I say that means you need to become more independent or something. Just my ****ty two cents.

Yeah, thereabouts :smalltongue:

This might not be accurate, but I feel/felt like I was pretty independent for most of my life. I didn't realize what I was missing out on until I made some friends and got a boyfriend, and finally figured out why humans are naturally social creatures, and frankly had the best six months of my entire life. Then I graduated and now I miss that. Being independent is good... but when I'm staying inside the house / my dorm room except for classes and meals and haven't talked to anyone except my roommate all day (and even then only "hi," "I'm going to class now," and other necessities), I know I need to get out more :smallsigh:

[Lillith]

Lillith
but unless hes got full blown flu and running a fever, then man-flu is a cop out.


That's it pretty much. He actually does have a fever and a nasty one too. Also I already told him, but I'm not going to press someone to spend time with me when they're sweating, shivering and trying not to puke. I wouldn't want that myself either if I was in his position.

[Coidzor]

I'd hope the whole threat of getting vomit on one's self would be a deterrent.

...man-flu though, that's... that's a new one.

As is the idea of someone getting sick for a week from flying. :smallconfused: Is there something in the environment he's reacting to? Or your mom slips him minor doses of arsenic when he comes calling?

[Ego Slayer]

Wall of text!

So, anyone with a internet-to-real life relationship care to share? Specifically the kind where you get to the "we're together" part before having actually met each other. Because, well... I'm doing that again. I've had feelings for a handful of people since the last time I was actually in a relationship, but none of them were the right kind of people for me and it never made it past being friends who flirt a lot. So, it's been, well... a very long time since I honestly liked someone. And I'm doing everything so differently... ironically the first week or so we started talking I seriously brought up issues I had with guys instantly deciding they liked and wanted to meet me without really knowing much about me, and how I'd really been enjoying talking with him and didn't want another person going crazy-irrational over me... so I made a bunch of arbitrary lines for the first time from the start between myself and someone who would be the first person in years who could cross them... I still have a hard time believing it.

Anyway, I think I posted something about a week and a half ago on it, but we've talked so much more since then that things have become a bit clearer. Night before last we had another lengthy conversation again on meeting and how we want to approach it and what to expect or not to expect. We obviously both really want it to work and I'm the one who initiated talking about possible problems and stuff, but then... casually talking late last night about [fun] stuff that would happen when we'd meet (forgetting about the previous conversation on how I'm not ready to seriously talk about that) felt kind of good at the same time in the back of my head I was still thinking "is this actually happening? Am I REALLY going to be able to do this again?"

I guess what I'd like to know is... has anyone else seriously given it the "we really want this to work but know very well that it might not once we meet and get to know how each other are in that world" approach, and how did that work out? I'm feeling relatively good about the chances this time, but hopefully after we're through the coming spring semester (when there is obviously no chance of getting together) I'll have a better idea, after we've both come down a little from cloud-freaking-nine about things.

And I'm just a little frustrated. I wish I could know now without a doubt that we'd click properly in person and know we were definitely physically attracted right now. I want this to work so badly it's driving me up a wall... and not only do I have to wait, but will wait as long as possible because the idea of meeting just one person like that is like 100 times more scary than meetups with GitP ever were. :smallfrown: But... it might turn out to happen... I think he's honestly worth that effort. :x

[xPANCAKEx]

...man-flu though, that's... that's a new one.

man flu is when a guy or, less commonly, a girl has a cold and plays it up like its the end of the world and they're on the verge of being on their death bed. "oh im so sick". Shut up. Blow your nose. Get on with it.

[Malfunctioned]

man flu is when a guy or, less commonly, a girl has a cold and plays it up like its the end of the world and they're on the verge of being on their death bed. "oh im so sick". Shut up. Blow your nose. Get on with it.

The whole idea of Man-flu really annoys me. I have amazing resistance to disease, usually getting ill with a cold once in the summer and sometimes during winter, that being the extent of it. Whenever I do, extremely rarely, give in to the illness enough that I need rest and recuperation I get accused of having Man-flu and overreacting because I've claimed to almost never get ill.

Which is my point.

I almost never get ill, yet I am ill at this moment. Therefore it must be one of the rare times I am properly ill. Therefore I need my rest.


*ahem*

Please continue with the rest of the thread. :smallredface:

[Coidzor]

I guess what I'd like to know is... has anyone else seriously given it the "we really want this to work but know very well that it might not once we meet and get to know how each other are in that world" approach, and how did that work out? I'm feeling relatively good about the chances this time, but hopefully after we're through the coming spring semester (when there is obviously no chance of getting together) I'll have a better idea, after we've both come down a little from cloud-freaking-nine about things.

Once it's been broached, there's only so long you can put it off until the relationship dies anyway because you're too scared to have one. So you have to decide whether you want to go forward with it and take a risk that things won't work out or accept a certainty that things will die without having reached that stage.

So, I would encourage you to not put additional, arbitrary time periods on waiting to meet each other for the first time. It just creates additional barriers to the chance that you work out in the end.

You also seem to have an unusually high level of disgust for the initial emotional charge of making a connection with someone. I'd suggest looking into why you have such a revulsion to the idea.

Would you prefer that the two of you didn't find one another attractive? :smallconfused: The way you talk about it and have talked about it in the past, it seems like you're almost spitting that out, like you have some issue with the morality of people who find you attractive or finding someone physically attractive is somehow immoral even if it's you who finds them attractive. :smallconfused:

I've been kinda confused about this for a while now, so it's a bit more tangential than the rest.


man flu is when a guy or, less commonly, a girl has a cold and plays it up like its the end of the world and they're on the verge of being on their death bed. "oh im so sick". Shut up. Blow your nose. Get on with it.

Weird. That's not manly at all. :smallconfused: How did it end up with that name then?

[arguskos]

However, I will say this: expensive or not, movies are terrible gifts unless you already know the person is going to like them.
You're probably right, I ****ed up. Thanks for the smack to the head, MK. Glad I can rely on ya. :smallwink:

Also, totally unrelated and horridly off-topic, but are you actually coming to town in January still?

[Ego Slayer]

You also seem to have an unusually high level of disgust for the initial emotional charge of making a connection with someone. I'd suggest looking into why you have such a revulsion to the idea.

Would you prefer that the two of you didn't find one another attractive? :smallconfused: The way you talk about it and have talked about it in the past, it seems like you're almost spitting that out, like you have some issue with the morality of people who find you attractive or finding someone physically attractive is somehow immoral even if it's you who finds them attractive. :smallconfused:

First, err... disgust? Huh? :smallconfused: Uh... no... just... I remember in the beginning of our friendship we both complained about people and relationships and stuff and I said something about how I didn't think I'd be willing to try starting a real relationship again online, since it's been a while now that I'd even met someone who was relationship material... I just wasn't expecting anything, not in a million years, to come of, at the time, this new friendship.

Second... not really sure what you're getting at there. Where are you getting the idea that I'd rather we didn't find each other attractive? And I'm not bothered by all the people in the past who've found me attractive, what bothers me is the "you're the single most amazing person I've ever talked to lets have a relationship" bull**** I get from people who don't even know me very well... it's just downright irritating. :smallsigh:

[RabbitHoleLost]

Ego: Sweetie, Coid reads into things in weird ways. Its best not to wonder how he got to the conclusions he got to, because its hard to follow.

Anyways, I sympathize, darling, on the fear of not making that connection once you meet face to face. Its a scary idea, really, that this person you've invested so much emotionally in might not...be who you think they are offline. And you and I both know this can happen. There's no sugarcoating it; people are helluva lot more in control of how they are portrayed on the internet as opposed to offline.
I'd suggest not worrying about it, though. It seems like its a ways off, and you'll just make yourself sick thinking about it.
Trust me, at the end of my first 12 hour drive up to Wisconsin, I thought I was going to throw up the moment I stepped out of my Jeep...
So don't fret about it.
Especially because there isn't really anything you can do about it- you'll either click, or you won't. There's no way to make it work. Its a lot like regular relationships in that respect; if there's no flame, there's no flame.
But I hope this works out for you :smallsmile:

[MountainKing]

You're probably right, I ****ed up. Thanks for the smack to the head, MK. Glad I can rely on ya. :smallwink:

Also, totally unrelated and horridly off-topic, but are you actually coming to town in January still?

Unfortunately, while I will be going to see A for her birthday, I don't think I'll be able to take us to the Con. :smallfrown: The closest I'll be is Cinncinnati... I *think* there's a stop in Columbus, but, it'd be in the dead of the night, and at the most, it'd be for about... ten minutes. Depending on how antsy the driver is. If you felt the need to go nuts and meet somebody new, just for gits and shiggles, I guess you could come meet me at the Cinn station. I'm almost always held over there for about three hours. I'll most definitely be trying to work out another con I can take A to and such, but January isn't going to work for me. :smallfrown:

And, as for the smack upside the head, it's alright man. Gifting is tricky territory. For a perfect example, my sister and I bought Gran Turino and a three pack of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly/A Fistful of Dollars/A Few Dollars More for my dad for Christmas. His head just about exploded with happy. Would he have reacted that way with, say, a re-make of Red Dawn that was totally different from the original? Hard to say, but the answer is most probably a "No".

Now, my mother? I wasted two hours just wandering around the store going "...what the Hell am I gonna get my mom?"

[Trog]

Wall of text!

*ker-stuff!*
I've done it before. Generally speaking there is, of course, a lot of nervousness and a bit of tension on both sides. Though as soon as you can get by the "holy crap I'm here with this person" thing it generally goes okay from there I guess. It is, indeed weird. Like a blind date, basically.

I mean if you are worried about that sort of thing there are ways to slowly bridge each gap. Exchange photos first. Maybe switch up to a phone call or voice chat. Maybe on to Skype for video chat after that. Take it in steps before meeting. That way you don't end up traveling a long way and ending up disappointed or in a very awkward position and such.

*Ahem* Obligatory Protective Uncle Trog Safety Note: :smalltongue:
Though the video chat would, at least, verify that the person was who they say they are. For safety's sake a background check never hurt if you are really concerned. Keep in mind I'm a 6'3" guy who doesn't afraid of anything so the safety issue was never a big concern for me but your mileage may vary and such. Guys, generally speaking, can be a lot creepier than girls can.

[Ego Slayer]

Thanks, Rabbs. <3 :smallsmile:


I've done it before. Generally speaking there is, of course, a lot of nervousness and a bit of tension on both sides. Though as soon as you can get by the "holy crap I'm here with this person" thing it generally goes okay from there I guess. It is, indeed weird. Like a blind date, basically.

I mean if you are worried about that sort of thing there are ways to slowly bridge each gap. Exchange photos first. Maybe switch up to a phone call or voice chat. Maybe on to Skype for video chat after that. Take it in steps before meeting. That way you don't end up traveling a long way and ending up disappointed or in a very awkward position and such.

*Ahem* Obligatory Protective Uncle Trog Safety Note: :smalltongue:
Though the video chat would, at least, verify that the person was who they say they are. For safety's sake a background check never hurt if you are really concerned. Keep in mind I'm a 6'3" guy who doesn't afraid of anything so the safety issue was never a big concern for me but your mileage may vary and such. Guys, generally speaking, can be a lot creepier than girls can.
Heh, way ahead of you there, Trog. Pics had been seen on both sides long before we even started actually talking, and voice chat was always an occasional thing (more often now, but we mostly just talk on msn, typing is easssy), since a game was involved in our meeting in the first place...lol Just... all these things can't tell me everything about how it would be actually in person, especially considering am a socially awkward person still. At least we've just about sworn to stay friends at the very least even if it doesn't work for whatever reason... at least we're literally on the same page about everything here... this is still really hard t wrap my head around again though. :x

[Trog]

*stuff*

Ah okay. That wasn't clear so I thought I'd start with the basics at least.

The real bitch of it all is that there really isn't any way to know if the chemistry is there until you are in the same room together, really. I mean you might think they're good looking but that's not the same as a sort of... for lack of a better way to put it... a basic animal attraction being there. Sometimes it won't be there but neither will there be, say, a revulsion and you just have to give it time to see or decide if the lack of that spark makes it worth pursuing at all. Other times it's there right away and you can tell just tell just like you can tell when you see a random stranger and can't take your eyes off of them. And sometimes (though rarely) the chemistry is practically overwhelming. Rarest yet is that that's there for both of you. An imbalance of some sort is more the norm between you two.

Now when I talk about all this I'm doing so in a "I'm looking for something more than just a hook-up" sort of way. Obviously some of those same types of attractions can exist in a much shallower form - only you can decide how serious you are about your feelingsor intents are in this regard. *shrug*

Just, you know, try to take a moment here or there during your meeting to get your wits about you and take stock of how you feel (bathroom breaks with a hard look in the mirror always seem to work well for me - you can't fool yourself). If you are happy and grinning like an idiot things are probably going good. :smallsmile:

[Ego Slayer]

Now when I talk about all this I'm doing so in a "I'm looking for something more than just a hook-up" sort of way. Obviously some of those same types of attractions can exist in a much shallower form - only you can decide how serious you are about your feelingsor intents are in this regard. *shrug*

Yeah, I don't want hookup nonsense, I want someone. And I'm just so afraid that the chemistry thing isn't going to work because that's the only thing right now standing between me and someone who is next to exactly the kind of person I want... I guess the least I can hope for in the end is that we enjoy each others company to whatever extent... I just am gonna have to find out if its enough to push it that one step farther. :smallfrown:

[Trog]

*snip*

Well best of luck to you on that. You deserve someone good for you. :smallsmile: Just keep hoping for the best. I hope it all works out good.

[Moonshadow]

Y'know, I'm really starting to get tired of being rejected by people on basis of looks. People always spout about how personality is king and looks should be a secondary factor, but honestly, it just never seems to appear to happen. Todays society is hypocritical and self centered and unless you're Brad fricking Pitt, you have practically no chance of finding anyone.

I'm tired of being alone, but I'm even more tired of being treated like a Lovecraftian horror :smallsigh:

[xPANCAKEx]

Malfunctioned

see - thats the essence of man-flu. "oh im ill, i must need rest". Nope. Despite the illness, you can get on with things (albeit maybe at a slower pace than usual).

A runny nose/sore throat is less than fun, i'll agree, but its no reason to hunker down in the bunker. When you get REAL flu then you'll call yourself a wimp for ever considering taking a day off for anything less

Naoto Shirogane

looks will always be important. Part of the whole joy of 'chemistry' is not only finding the other person attractive on a personal level but on a physical level too. And lets not forget, "the first taste is with the eye"

Now as much as some moral crusaders will wish this wasnt true, for now we just have to accept this as fact and deal with it. If you're unhappy about your appearance, or feel it could be improved, then get out there and do it. Others will like you more and, on a vastly more important note, you will like yourself more. If you ever feel "i would look better if i changed that" then go for it. I dont mean surgical changes, more style changes. Different hair, different clothes, get in better shape and the such. All that stuff, as flippent/shallow as some may view it to be, feeds into your own personal confidence. And confidence/liking yourself is the key to being attractive

[Moonshadow]

I'm not saying that everyone finds me to be an unspeakable horror to gaze upon and lose sanity. A couple of girls have thought me cute. I'm okay with how I look. I know that I'll never be considered hot by todays standards, but I'm okay with that.

I'm just tired of being rejected and treated different for not matching up to societies standards of how someone should look.

If personality counted for anything these days... :smallsigh:

[xPANCAKEx]

being "ok" with how you look isnt what i was getting at - is there anything you can do (bar going under the knife) to improve your appearance. And if there is, why arnt you doing it already?

[Moonshadow]

Because... it's pointless? :smallconfused:

I work in a warehouse, so I don't need to tramp myself up for that. I get home late, so I don't go out, so I don't tramp myself up to stay home. I'm usually doing stuff at home on the weekends, so I don't need to tramp myself up to mow the lawns or anything...

See where I'm going with this?

I do not see why I should have to conform to the social norm to such a degree. My parents raised me to be an individual, not a sheep :smallsigh:

[Serpentine]

He's not talking about "tramping yourself up". He's talking about looking the best you can.
It goes back to that whole smiling thing: if you're fine with it, fine, but keep in mind that if you're not gonna do anything to change it, then you have no reason to expect anyone else to change their reactions, either.
I don't know what you look like, so no particular comments on your appearance. It just seems like you have a whole lot of expectations on other people, and absolutely no intention of ever considering the expectations they have of you.

[Adumbration]

Because... it's pointless? :smallconfused:

I work in a warehouse, so I don't need to tramp myself up for that. I get home late, so I don't go out, so I don't tramp myself up to stay home. I'm usually doing stuff at home on the weekends, so I don't need to tramp myself up to mow the lawns or anything...

See where I'm going with this?

I do not see why I should have to conform to the social norm to such a degree. My parents raised me to be an individual, not a sheep :smallsigh:

So, uh, do you see girls... at all? If you don't go out, you're not going to meet people. If you don't meet people, you won't meet possible girlfriend candidates. You don't have to conform to the social norm (whatever that is, if you look long enough you'll find that there's a niche for everybody), but you do have to be part of the society if you wish to meet girls.

[Amiel]

And it has a lot to do with self-confidence as well; confidence can be more attractive than looks.
If you're confident in yourself, this will translate in how you look (more well groomed, favouring a less shaggy look). Girls tend to like guys who place some effort in how they present themselves and their appearance.

[Moonshadow]

He's not talking about "tramping yourself up". He's talking about looking the best you can.
It goes back to that whole smiling thing: if you're fine with it, fine, but keep in mind that if you're not gonna do anything to change it, then you have no reason to expect anyone else to change their reactions, either.
I don't know what you look like, so no particular comments on your appearance. It just seems like you have a whole lot of expectations on other people, and absolutely no intention of ever considering the expectations they have of you.

Well, I'm sorry if I don't feel like smiling when I don't feel happy. I feel very uncomfortable trying to put on a fake smile, because I know that it just feels fake and insincere and it's not fooling anyone, so why should I lie? Why do I have to resort to deception? Why do I have to pretend the world is sunshine and rainbows when it isn't?

I'm also not a mind reader, so, y'know, I can't really consider other people's expectations when they don't say anything.


So, uh, do you see girls... at all? If you don't go out, you're not going to meet people. If you don't meet people, you won't meet possible girlfriend candidates. You don't have to conform to the social norm (whatever that is, if you look long enough you'll find that there's a niche for everybody), but you do have to be part of the society if you wish to meet girls.

No, I don't go out. I get up early for work, and I come home late, and I honestly don't feel like going out anywhere after having been awake for 14+ hours and being tired. Even on weekends, when I don't work, I don't go out. I don't have any movies I want to see. I don't have any shopping I'd like to do. I don't drink, so I don't go to bars or clubs or anything. My friends are always busy so I don't ever get to see them. My only real social interaction apart from my workmates would be on the train, and I wouldn't call that interaction because nobody wants to be bothered while they're catching public transport, and I've endured enough abuse and being called creepy and whatnot for trying to talk to people in my life that it makes my interest in trying to strike up a conversation non existant. If I wanted to shoot myself in the foot, I'd just do it myself and save myself the heartbreak.

[Serpentine]

Well, I'm sorry if I don't feel like smiling when I don't feel happy. I feel very uncomfortable trying to put on a fake smile, because I know that it just feels fake and insincere and it's not fooling anyone, so why should I lie? Why do I have to resort to deception? Why do I have to pretend the world is sunshine and rainbows when it isn't?It's not lying. It's being pleasant and friendly and various other good things, including better age-lines. Not smiling sends a variety of negative messages to those who view you. And if you not to do this simple, tiny, basic thing, then when people think you're glum/not having fun/a jerk/unpleasant? Tough titties. Your choice, live with it and stop blaming everyone else for interpreting the signals you give out.
Same with appearance: it matters. You not giving a crap doesn't change this fact. It's totally fine for you to not give a crap, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to give a crap about you not giving a crap.

[Quincunx]

He could instead join a society where a facial expression of contempt for one's inferiors is socially acceptable. Of course, that limits the options to hate clubs, preteen cliques, and/or Aspie support groups. . . :smalltongue:

[xPANCAKEx]

Naoto Shirogane

you're mighty defensive about all of this. You've come in with a problem, a solution has been suggested yet you seem to be suggesting its unsuitable.

If you're that busy that you dont have time (either through busy schedual as in your case, or if you were just unwilling to make the time) to meet new people, and neither your house work nor your job requires judgement of your appearance, why are you so hung up on other peoples opinions in the matter?

[Drascin]

Now as much as some moral crusaders will wish this wasnt true, for now we just have to accept this as fact and deal with it. If you're unhappy about your appearance, or feel it could be improved, then get out there and do it. Others will like you more and, on a vastly more important note, you will like yourself more. If you ever feel "i would look better if i changed that" then go for it. I dont mean surgical changes, more style changes. Different hair, different clothes, get in better shape and the such. All that stuff, as flippent/shallow as some may view it to be, feeds into your own personal confidence. And confidence/liking yourself is the key to being attractive

Ah, but there's the rub, isnt it? I myself am plenty happy with how I look. I'm ugly, and scruffy, and apparently look a bit scary if my friends are to be believed - and I'm plenty fine with that. It's my face. I just don't make myself any illusions that anyone else is going to like the same things I like :smalltongue:. But I'm not going to change what I think is "my look" just because it doesn't turn heads. And I have this pet peeve with inevitably linking "being hotter"="confidence" - it basically seems to say that us people who are born ugly can't really be confident until we get some surgery... or a mask :smallamused:.

[Serpentine]

And I have this pet peeve with inevitably linking "being hotter"="confidence" - it basically seems to say that us people who are born ugly can't really be confident until we get some surgery... or a mask :smallamused:.That's not what we're saying at all. It's that if you're lacking in confidence, sprucing yourself up to look extra-good, or simply taking more care on your appearance on a regular basis, goes a very long way towards giving you a big confidence boost and so makes you doubly extra-attractive. It doesn't even matter if you're pug-ugly: just going to the effort can make you look and feel good regardless of your facial features.
If you're totally fine with your appearance, then that's swell. There's no need to change anything. But if you look like a slob, don't whinge when everyone treats you like a slob, no matter how fine you are with being a slob.

[xPANCAKEx]

But if you look like a slob, don't whinge when everyone treats you like a slob, no matter how fine you are with being a slob.

couldnt have said it better myself.

and before anyone jumps in - theres MIGHTY big difference between looking good, and "being what other people want you to be" (or some similar phrasing). You dont have to look prestine the entire time, you just have to about looking shabby

[Serpentine]

As an aside, I don't know that there's many faces I would really consider, on a gut level, "ugly". I mean, I can recognise an "ugly" face when I see it, but in terms of my own perception I pretty much have three categories: a face I'm attracted to1, a face I'm not attracted to2, and a face I find compelling and/or interesting3.

1: Not necessarily the same sorts others are attracted to. Usually "pretty", but only to a point.
2: Often the sorts other people are attracted to. Sometimes ones I recognise as "objectively" attractive, but just don't appeal to me on a visceral level.
3: Often "objectively" pug-fugly. But I rarely, if ever, am "repulsed" by such faces.

...y'all savvy?

[Drascin]

That's not what we're saying at all. It's that if you're lacking in confidence, sprucing yourself up to look extra-good, or simply taking more care on your appearance on a regular basis, goes a very long way towards giving you a big confidence boost and so makes you doubly extra-attractive. It doesn't even matter if you're pug-ugly: just going to the effort can make you look and feel good regardless of your facial features.
If you're totally fine with your appearance, then that's swell. There's no need to change anything. But if you look like a slob, don't whinge when everyone treats you like a slob, no matter how fine you are with being a slob.

Really? Because I honestly have found that worrying about my appearance only gave me headaches and diminished confidence. I was really very miserable in my teen years precisely because of believing that you needed to be hot to amount to anything... since I cannot look "hot", at least not to anyone looking at my face :smalltongue:.

I've been much better ever since I stopped worrying too much about it. And funny thing, I am an unrepentant slob in some ways (though with perfect hygiene, of course - I have a really keen smell, if I'm dirty I can smell myself and I don't like it - but I go around in an old tracksuit, with mangled possessions, and I'm not entirely sure when the last time I combed my hair was), yet nobody ever treats me like one is stereotypically supposed to be treated. Fact is, I seem to be much better regarded, all in all - usual leader and spokesperson for the uni class, generally regarded as a very smart if hard to approach person, and etcetera.

So, basically, I might not get girls, because that requires physical attraction and nobody could be physically attracted to me without serious beer goggles, but my life and confidence has only gone up ever since I unlinked my physical appearance from it. Which is why I tend to find it very bothersome when the whole "care for how you look! It'll make you feel better!" is spoken as an absolute.

Sorry for the rant. As said, it's one of my pet peeves.

[DeadManSleeping]

Despite what magazines will have you think, different people find different facial types attractive. For instance, I tend to find "models" and "hot" celebrities to be in the range of "yikes" to "okay, but I'd hope she has a nice personality". Also, you'll find that, outside of symmetry, there is absolutely no agreed-upon facial type that is considered attractive on men. In all likelihood, you're almost definitely pretty symmetrical (a certain base level of attractiveness has been bred into almost the entire human race. Generic Cuteness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenericCuteness) is kind of real). Honestly, all you need to do is keep up a good hygiene schedule, dress in clothes that make you look good, and you're pretty much set as far as looks are concerned (make sure your head-hair and facial hair is kempt and in a style that looks at least okay).

And even if you manage to not follow the basic stuff, believe me, SOMEONE'S in the mood for whatever you've got cooking. You just have to find them.

Basically, don't be like I was as a teenager and blame your inability to get a date on your natural-born looks. That's never the problem.

[Serpentine]

Drascin: Then that advice is clearly not for you. But it is helpful for a large number of other people.

[xPANCAKEx]

Drascin

its less, "care for how you look! It'll make you feel better!", more "if you feel you could look better, but arnt making any effort, then start making the effort"

[Serpentine]

Drascin

its less, "care for how you look! It'll make you feel better!", more "if you feel you could look better, but arnt making any effort, then start making the effort"...because it will make you feel good, which will have the added bonus of making you look even better to other people than just looking good."
If it won't, and you don't want that, then the advice isn't for you *shrug*

[xPANCAKEx]

if youre not worried about how you look, then its a non-issue, pet peeve or not

[Serpentine]

If you're not worried about your luck with teh gurlz, it's even more not an issue.

[MountainKing]

Well, I'm sorry if I don't feel like smiling when I don't feel happy. I feel very uncomfortable trying to put on a fake smile, because I know that it just feels fake and insincere and it's not fooling anyone, so why should I lie? Why do I have to resort to deception? Why do I have to pretend the world is sunshine and rainbows when it isn't?

Serp said it far better, but I'd like to reinforce it: because negativity is ugly as balls. Cynicism, pessimism, call them "realism" all you want, but that doesn't change the negative nature inherent to the behavior, and ultimately, it does make you less attractive when you'd rather focus on kids starving to death in Ethiopia and criminal businessmen in America than on, say, kittens. Even once in a while.

[Trog]

Serp said it far better, but I'd like to reinforce it: because negativity is ugly as balls. Cynicism, pessimism, call them "realism" all you want, but that doesn't change the negative nature inherent to the behavior, and ultimately, it does make you less attractive when you'd rather focus on kids starving to death in Ethiopia and criminal businessmen in America than on, say, kittens. Even once in a while.
KITTENS!!! ^(^_^)^

...

<<
>>

Er... sorry... o///O

*ahem*

Carry on. >///>;

[Cobra_Ikari]

Not ENTIRELY sure this is the right place to post, but I felt it workedish, so...

...I start work tomorrow. I'm pretty sure said job will involve me having to interact with people socially in person. I SUCK at that, so I'm getting really nervous. How do you not mess up small talk? Or even make it in the first place? I don't wanna be all awkward and silent and withdrawn like I usually am.

I suppose I'd file this under "interpersonal interactions" rather than "relationships", but...


...there's also the matter of me needing to stop falling for the first person to act nice and concerned for me when I'm really doing awful. I'm working on that one right now, too, though the girl is awesome, but for the life of me, I can't figure out if she's flirting with me or just being friendly. >.<

[MountainKing]

Interpersonal relationships are still just that; relationships. I think it's a fair cop to bring such questions here too. :smallsmile: That being said, there's no real easy way to not screw up relationships, but, there are a few things you can avoid for "first time" conversations that ought to make them a little smoother:

- Religion
- Politics
- The Great Pumpkin

Like anything social, consider your interactions a performance. It pays to know your audience. Always try to ask for more information than you give, but again, it pays off to read your audience appropriately. If it's somebody who isn't terribly open, avoid asking personal questions. Some people are sociable in the workplace, others are just there to do their job and get out. I don't want to scare you off it, but I'm sure you're well aware that, being social is pretty much playing Minesweeper, but instead of the shame of little red Xs and an unhappy smiley face, you have faux pas and awkwardness.

EDIT: And yes Trog. Kittens.

[Serpentine]

...there's also the matter of me needing to stop falling for the first person to act nice and concerned for me when I'm really doing awful. I'm working on that one right now, too, though the girl is awesome, but for the life of me, I can't figure out if she's flirting with me or just being friendly. >.<
Why do I fall in love with every woman I see who shows me the least bit of attention?
Re. small-talk: It's the same old same old. Answer the questions she asks you. Ask her questions. Listen to her answers, follow up on them with more questions and/or comments. I think practice is the only way to get better at this.
I think I got lucky with this... I used to accompany my dad to various Terribly Important Events to meet various Terribly Important People, so he gave me a good education in basic social graces: Shake their hand firmly, smile, meet their eyes, answer their questions, respond in kind, etc.

Because negativity is ugly as balls.Yesssss :biggrin:

[DeadManSleeping]

Alright, those of you with strong memories might know that I've got it bad for a friend of mine. I honestly have no problem telling her. The issue is, for both my sake and hers, I'd rather tell her in person, and in private. The issue is, how do I get to talk to her in person, and in private? We see each other a lot, but mostly in group social settings. Calling her up to arrange a time to talk in person would really have almost as many issues as just talking about it over the phone (almost; not quite as many). Does anyone have any good ideas?

[Dallas-Dakota]

So .....
My ex and I are meeting up this week.
She still likes me, orso I hear.
My other ex will also be there.
We kissed tonight.

I'm tempted to invite the girl I'm currently crushing on(and I think she is on me, but I"m not sure,) where nothing serious is going to happen because of distance, just to make it more awkward.

On top of it all, all three find eachother and me awesome.

Captain Awkward, ahoy!

[Coidzor]

So there's a girl you're crushing on, an ex that still has a thing for you, and an ex that still has a thing for you on a physical level in that she made out with you...

Obviously this is a sign. :smallamused:

[Moonshadow]

Of course I get defensive. It's not like I just walk around unwashed and unkempt with a blatant disregard for how my hygiene affects other people.

I make an effort to look clean, but I dress for comfort. I'm not about to go around wearing wing tipped shoes while I unload boxes. Admittedly, my fashion sense is equal to none, and my normal attire is just jeans and a t-shirt, though I do make an effort to get a little dressy if I have to go out with family or something.

I make an effort not to look like the wolfman. I just understand that I'm not what society stereotypes as attractive, and it's kinda depressing.

I don't always walk around with a permanent sneer on my face or anything, either. If anything, it's more SERIOUS FACE, because as I said before, I'm very uncomfortable with putting on a fake smile. I'm all smiles and pleasantry when I'm around people that I like and I feel comfortable with, unless I'm having a bad day. I can't help that, that is just how I am.

[Serpentine]

A smile isn't just an indicator of happiness. It's a greeting, an acknowledgement, an indicator that you're listening, a nicer default face than a frown or a slack-jawed imbicile look (and I'm working on making a small smile my default face for that reason), an indicator of nervousness, an expression of sympathy, pleasant to look at, so on and so forth.
Basically, you're reading both far too much and far too little into the humble smile.
I smile from the moment I turn up at work until after I leave. Am I always in a fantastic mood? Of course not. Is it then a fake smile? Am I lying? No, absolutely not. I'm not saying "look at me, I'm so very very happy!" I'm saying "I am professional and pleasant. It is okay to talk to me and get help. I like being here, and I am ready to assist you."

[Coidzor]

Have you investigated whether you have eyebrows that people think make you look angry? Or a face that's of the ruddier variety and so people might think it was flushed red with anger?

Because I've run into and/or experienced issues myself with people thinking that sort of thing about others. ...Still trying to figure out a way to not end up looking like I'm cruising for another dude to others and yet deal with my eyebrows, actually.

But if you can identify areas like that, you can do maintenance level things to help diminish their impact or eliminate them as factors entirely.

[Moonshadow]

No, my eyebrows are, well, girly >_> and I go red very very easily when I'm embarassed, which tends to happen often enough that it makes people laugh at me.

And I'm just a teensy bit self concious about my smile. I always have been, even after my parents paid a large amount for orthodontics. I just find it really hard to smile if it's not out of genuine happiness, because I feel like I'm grimacing or otherwise looking extraordinarily stupid or something.

[Coidzor]

Well, the default-to smile isn't an open-lipped smile where one shows one's teeth anyway.

...Though care should be taken not to forget that one is smiling if one successfully makes it one's default face. Though this might just be a personal flaw of mine that I was capable of forgetting such a facial configuration due to getting so used to it.

[Amiel]

A smile happens more in the eyes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile#Duchenne_smile).

[Quincunx]

Coidzor: It might be enough for you just to identify the most angled eyebrow hairs and snip them short? Just comb down the eyebrows like you were trying to make bangs and snip all the ends that hang down past where the eyebrow hairs sprout. It doesn't change the eyebrow shape and doesn't make a defined edge, it makes the eyebrows themselves appear. . .erm. . .combed, for lack of the best word. That wasn't enough shaping for my face, but I don't have a nifty beard and expectation of generous eyebrows to match. :smalltongue:

[Zeb The Troll]

Coidzor: It might be enough for you just to identify the most angled eyebrow hairs and snip them short? Just comb down the eyebrows like you were trying to make bangs and snip all the ends that hang down past where the eyebrow hairs sprout. It doesn't change the eyebrow shape and doesn't make a defined edge, it makes the eyebrows themselves appear. . .erm. . .combed, for lack of the best word. That wasn't enough shaping for my face, but I don't have a nifty beard and expectation of generous eyebrows to match. :smalltongue:Or do what I do and just take a beard trimmer to them. Cuts 'em all an even length and it's quick and painless. :smallcool:

[Castaras]

No, my eyebrows are, well, girly >_> and I go red very very easily when I'm embarassed, which tends to happen often enough that it makes people laugh at me.

And I'm just a teensy bit self concious about my smile. I always have been, even after my parents paid a large amount for orthodontics. I just find it really hard to smile if it's not out of genuine happiness, because I feel like I'm grimacing or otherwise looking extraordinarily stupid or something.

I'm so glad I'm not the only person who is/was like this.

Well, was. I can smile now, just not for pictures, and I very rarely do a toothy smile because I don't like smiling like that.

Best thing I found to help try and make me more comfortable with smiling was practising in front of a mirror. Sounds silly, but it does work. Every so often, look in the mirror, and smile at yourself. Decide what it is you don't like about that smile. Do your best to fix it. Repeat.

Most likely, you'll end up realising there's nothing wrong with your smile, so you feel more confident about smiling, so you smile more. :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

I find the mirror exercise has it best to start off with a smirk:smallamused:, then move up to bedroom eyes[err, maybe is not right term, but I can't really think of a better one, as come-hither seems to lack a certain "jenny says kumquat."] smirk:smallwink: (which is at first just an exercise in being silly to break the ice of staring into the mirror at yourself) and only after working through the amusement of that to work on actual smiling:smallsmile:.

And if you want, you could practice your evil laugh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apEZpYnN_1g), that's always a good warm up for toothy grins! :smallbiggrin:

[Sholos]

Also, a genuine smile (with eyes and everything) will actually improve your mood. Try it. It's very hard not to feel better if you genuinely smile.

My own problems:
I have a very hard time spending time with people outside of large groups. Is this normal, or am I just a social failure?

[MountainKing]

I wouldn't say it's a problem per se, but it's probably something you should work around, unless your ideal future relationships (intimate or otherwise) can be described as "groups". Spending time with somebody one on one is far more intimate (I love this word; so versatile!), and in my experience, a lot more bonding goes on during such interactions. A lot of my closest friends I see very seldom, but to this day when we greet each other, we're generally all smiles and rather excited to see each other. Spending time together, alone or as a very tight-knit social unit with relatively few members, is a huge part of that (I think; I'm no doctor).

[Bean-Wahine]

So I've kind of had some stuff on my heart recently and maybe you guys can help.
There's this guy, right? I'm not only interested in guys (Pansexual) but this guy happens to be male. And we really like each other. Problems:

I'm in America, he's in Australia
I'm younger than both of our age of consent laws and he's older, if that matters
we've only known each other like two weeks maybe

And yeah. There was a day when I couldn't talk to him and I was like sick to my stomach, I love just being with him even if it's online.

[Sholos]

Honestly, that sounds more like a crush than anything else. It's definitely too soon to say much else, especially considering that this is an online thing. Also keep in mind that this might be destined never to happen. If neither of you can get to the other, then you may have to resign yourself to staying at a friend level. I'd say to just stay in contact with him and see how things go. Build a friendship first.

[Quincunx]

Also, a genuine smile (with eyes and everything) will actually improve your mood. Try it. It's very hard not to feel better if you genuinely smile.

I notice that the people who claim that's effective are the same people who think a task gets easier to accomplish if it's broken into smaller quantities of time, but in either case I cannot see why. Some sort of willful blindness to the whole? Tuning out internal cues in favor of external cues (like the look of the smile, or the short duration of one part of the task)?


My own problems:
I have a very hard time spending time with people outside of large groups. Is this normal, or am I just a social failure?

I don't think it's normal, but it does make a good contrast to the introverts who can handle people except when they're in large groups. :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

You don't see how doublethink can get one to focus only on the smaller goal and then the next smaller goal after that one is accomplished so that they get through the task without having to consider it in its entirety for more than the time it takes to compartmentalize the sub-tasks?

Basically it's a stress management psychological tool as I've always understood it.

It may not be universally effective, but it seems to have utility, for instance, when one has to walk home at 1 AM and it's going to take 2 or 3 hours in order to make it. Rather than keep the whole stretch that's left in one's mind, which causes a peculiar sense of suicidal despair, focusing on completing a smaller stretch without looking into the looming maw of the darkness stretching out before one's self can actually add a sense of accomplishment to the chore.

[For'Ninniach]

Does anyone else find it a little disturbing that there are people that just invite you to 'hang out' to just makeout and possibly 'do the dirty' (as my dad calls it) ? Opinions?

[Adumbration]

Does anyone else find it a little disturbing that there are people that just invite you to 'hang out' to just makeout and possibly 'do the dirty' (as my dad calls it) ? Opinions?

Wait, what? There are? Where were those people when I grew up?

Just kidding, though. :smalltongue: Sounds like the stereotypical horny teenage guy type of a thing though, but like I said, I wouldn't know. Kinda creepy, I guess.

***

On an unrelated note, I chickened out on messaging her. I have a feeling that this will bite me in the rear at some point, but there you go. At this moment I'm in the process of attempting to move on just on the principle that I doubt it would have worked anyway. I'm a little too dysfunctional anyway, and when she would've found out about that, I think it would've ended there.

Hey, thinking that get's me through the day (and part way through the night), even if it's unfair to both me and her.

[For'Ninniach]

Wait, what? There are? Where were those people when I grew up?

Just kidding, though. :smalltongue: Sounds like the stereotypical horny teenage guy type of a thing though, but like I said, I wouldn't know. Kinda creepy, I guess.

Well, I just don't get how people can go about doing that.

They only live where I live. DUH.

[Sholos]

Well, I just don't get how people can go about doing that.

They only live where I live. DUH.

Because they only care about sex and not about the person?

[xPANCAKEx]

Sholos

being with people in smaller groups/1-on-1 requires more intimacy (in the nonsexual sense). It can be intimidating. If you get a bit shy/bashful, thats ok... just keep your chin up and soilder on. Your friends will soon work out what you're about, and no one is likely to take offense as long as you keep a smile on your face and make an effort to be social with the people you like being around

For'Ninniach

nah thats totally fine. As long as its two consenting adults, and no one is being used then whats the harm? They (theoretically) both get what they desire out of their friendship, and carry on with life. But its all down to personal boundries. That sort of life style/friendship/relationship isnt for everyone. Theres nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with the idea of "hooking up" per se, but theres nothing wrong with doing it either so long as you're responsible about it.

It doesnt neccissarily mean you dont CARE about the other person, just that maybe a relationship to fecilitate sexual relations isnt needed (or in some circumstances maybe undesirable for variety of reasons)

Adumbration

assumption is the mother of all **** ups. You dont know how things would turn out with her if she says yes. Infact you dont even know if she would say yes or no to begin with, rendering any speculation moot. Give yourself a chance. You never know how things will turn out unless you find out for sure.

Bean-Wahine

not to sound presumptuous or condisending, but when youre young there is often the trap of falling into "long distance" or online relationships as they're easy to idealise and deal with than a relationship closer to home. Relationships in person can be daunting, but you just have to give it a go.

If age would make an sexual aspect of your relationship with him legally tricky, then i doubt you have the finance required to even meet up. Id be very hesitant to commit yourself to someone who cant be there physically for you when needed, maybe not even emotionally (you cant rely on him being online all the time).

Keep things going as friends, for sure, but dont stop going out there and meeting people. As long as you approach it all with an open mind you may find the world presents the occasional suprise

[For'Ninniach]

Because they only care about sex and not about the person?

Horrid.
:smallmad:

[Cobra_Ikari]

Horrid.
:smallmad:

Meh, not really. Look at it this way: at least they're honest. There are plenty of people who will fake anything to get into your pants. I think that's worse. =\

[Coidzor]

Does anyone else find it a little disturbing that there are people that just invite you to 'hang out' to just makeout and possibly 'do the dirty' (as my dad calls it) ? Opinions?

Well, it does sound a bit date-rapey, yeah.

[xPANCAKEx]

Well, it does sound a bit date-rapey, yeah.

all depends whether both parties are aware of what kind of "hanging out" is implied


Meh, not really. Look at it this way: at least they're honest. There are plenty of people who will fake anything to get into your pants. I think that's worse. =\

this this this this this this

[Coidzor]

all depends whether both parties are aware of what kind of "hanging out" is implied

Indeed, should've specified that the way she was phrasing it sounded a bit off.

[For'Ninniach]

Well, he said specifically, PROBABLY when he was on something, "I'm gonna kiss you one day"

..
UH
CREEPY, MUCH?:confused:

[For'Ninniach]

When I hear hanging out, I don't think of that.

[Coidzor]

Well, he said specifically, PROBABLY when he was on something, "I'm gonna kiss you one day"

..
UH
CREEPY, MUCH?:confused:

Ok, well, don't associate with him then if you don't want to. *shrug* Can hardly fault him for wanting you, even if there's only low quality shots of you in the You Thread.

And you're the only one who can judge how creepy it was, so I don't know why you're asking us. :smallconfused:

Generally it's one of those things where one would assume that said bridge had already been crossed before it took on that connotation, yes.

[Ytaker]

Not ENTIRELY sure this is the right place to post, but I felt it workedish, so...

...I start work tomorrow. I'm pretty sure said job will involve me having to interact with people socially in person. I SUCK at that, so I'm getting really nervous. How do you not mess up small talk? Or even make it in the first place? I don't wanna be all awkward and silent and withdrawn like I usually am.

In terms of your voice, you should be speaking loudly and slowly. It'll be hard for them to retain interest if they can't hear you, and if you speak too fast you sound desperate and needy.

Also, be emotional. Whatever you're saying can be improved by emotion. If you don't use vocal modulation you sound flat and you'll have trouble retaining anyone's interest. Laugh if they make a joke (not excessively). If they say something sad, frown, if they say something you agree with, nod and smile.

Eye contact is always core. You should be holding eye contact about half the time when someone is speaking, and most of the time when you're speaking to someone. That will help people care about what you're saying, and want to listen to you.

In terms of what to speak about- TV and social gossip are obvious topics.

I suppose I'd file this under "interpersonal interactions" rather than "relationships", but...



...there's also the matter of me needing to stop falling for the first person to act nice and concerned for me when I'm really doing awful. I'm working on that one right now, too, though the girl is awesome, but for the life of me, I can't figure out if she's flirting with me or just being friendly. >.<

Does she touch you? Flirty people tend to touch you. Does she lean towards you when she speaks? Does she smile and laugh at everything you say?

If you want to test it, just imitate some of her flirty behaviour back. She'll presumably be ok with you doing whatever she's doing, and if she ramps it up you know she is interested.

[xPANCAKEx]

For'Ninniach

if youre that concerned, hang out somewhere public

[DeadManSleeping]

Since absolutely nobody acknowledged my post with so much as a "Tough toenails, DMS" in over a page, I will repost it once.


Alright, those of you with strong memories might know that I've got it bad for a friend of mine. I honestly have no problem telling her. The issue is, for both my sake and hers, I'd rather tell her in person, and in private. The issue is, how do I get to talk to her in person, and in private? We see each other a lot, but mostly in group social settings. Calling her up to arrange a time to talk in person would really have almost as many issues as just talking about it over the phone (almost; not quite as many). Does anyone have any good ideas?

Helllllllp meeeeeeeeeee...

[Coidzor]

Well, how small of a group can you get in the first place?

How many of them can you get an understanding you'll be taking a short departure from the group proper?

Because really, all I can see that you can do is ask her to walk with you for a moment.

[Ytaker]

Helllllllp meeeeeeeeeee...

Get a good conversation going with her in public, and say "Wanna go somewhere quieter".

Or chat with her at the end of school/work, and keep chatting as you walk home, or go to lunch or whatever.

[For'Ninniach]

For'Ninniach

if youre that concerned, hang out somewhere public



Never thought of that.
*facepalms*

[Quincunx]

Does anyone else find it a little disturbing that there are people that just invite you to 'hang out' to just makeout and possibly 'do the dirty' (as my dad calls it) ? Opinions?

Not really. I'm worth it. :smallcool:

[Sholos]

Sholos

being with people in smaller groups/1-on-1 requires more intimacy (in the nonsexual sense). It can be intimidating. If you get a bit shy/bashful, thats ok... just keep your chin up and soilder on. Your friends will soon work out what you're about, and no one is likely to take offense as long as you keep a smile on your face and make an effort to be social with the people you like being around

You misunderstand me. I'm fine with hanging out with people on a 1-on-1 or really small group basis. It just never seems to happen.

[MountainKing]

Helllllllp meeeeeeeeeee...

Invite her out to coffee/lunch/midnight snack run/whatever and don't bring any friends. Take her to a public, but relatively low volume, quiet place, and talk to her there. From the sound of things, just inviting her over to your pad for Mountain Dew and video games isn't going to go over so well, so the closest you can get to private is probably going to be a quiet hole in the wall type shop.

Additional possible bonuses include: it's neutral ground, delicious baked goods.


Not really. I'm worth it. :smallcool:

Seconded. I'll also second whoever said "At least he's honest about it". There's nothing wrong with a little frisky fun, so long as all parties involved know that that's what's at hand, and nothing else.

[Adumbration]

assumption is the mother of all **** ups. You dont know how things would turn out with her if she says yes. Infact you dont even know if she would say yes or no to begin with, rendering any speculation moot. Give yourself a chance. You never know how things will turn out unless you find out for sure.

True, true. But it is an area that, amusingly, is both completely unknown to me and quite familiar. In one hand, I have zero personal experience. Zip. Nada. My second-hand knowledge is shabby too - no one I knew (or even knew of) dated anyone in my youth. It was only after high school that one of my friends got a girlfriend, and by the time I caught on they were a rock solid couple without any intervening phases that I know of. Practically the same happened to my big brother - I didn't even know he had a girlfriend until he introduced her to our parents.

In the other hand, I have read waaay too many fictional books, giving me a possibly twisted, melodramatic and over-romantic view of things.

It really doesn't help that I'm 20, which means that people sort of expect you to know these things, which leads me to pretend that I do: which leads people to think I'm weird since I really have no idea what I'm doing. Not that it's far from truth, me being weird. Actually it's about as close to the target as you can get without resorting to microscope for aiming.

In any case, here, have an interesting article about the advantage insecurity gives to dating, while I flee the scene. (http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/70312/)

[Fax Celestis]

Helllllllp meeeeeeeeeee...

Ask her out to lunch, something casual. Coffee shop, corner sandwich place, something comfortable and preferably somewhere you've been to before that you both enjoy. Preferably not a chain (as chains tend to have blue atmospheres and are therefore less comforting than a local owned shop's orange/warm atmosphere; largely this is due to incandescent or halogen vs florescent lighting, but that's neither here nor there).

Then, when you sit down and there's a lull in the conversation--not the start of the conversation, but in the middle of such--bring it up. Be casual about it, but be straightforward and honest, and make sure you state that if the feeling is unrequited, then nothing has to change and you can continue with your relationship as if you had said nothing.

However, this is chancy. She can up and leave (which, if she does, she isn't worth your devotion or your friendship); she can try to make it work but not being fully comfortable with it distances herself (in which case she can't be blamed but you end up losing a friend); she could inexplicably return the feelings (in which case bonus puntos and probably the best outcome); or, she could be mature about it and just let it slide (which is unlikely, but probably the solution you're looking for).

Still, it is in my estimation better to be honest than cautious: at least then you have no regrets.

[xPANCAKEx]

Adumbration

bah, 20 is nothing. No harm in 'starting' now

forget the books - you're right in that they're usually twist from reality... they are drama after all

look. As long as you dont rush into things expecting the worlds greatest romance... wait, scratch that, just EXPECT NOTHING. Go into it honestly, if she dont try to hard to make things happen. You dont have to be overly nice and dote on her to keep it going

scratch all of that

just ask her out. Worry about the "making things work" part later on. You're getting wat ahead of yourself by worrying now.

if you need advice, just drop in here - we're all more than willing to give as much advice as you need as long as you're willing to keep a chin up and give things a go

[Adumbration]

Adumbration

bah, 20 is nothing. No harm in 'starting' now

forget the books - you're right in that they're usually twist from reality... they are drama after all

look. As long as you dont rush into things expecting the worlds greatest romance... wait, scratch that, just EXPECT NOTHING. Go into it honestly, if she dont try to hard to make things happen. You dont have to be overly nice and dote on her to keep it going

scratch all of that

just ask her out. Worry about the "making things work" part later on. You're getting wat ahead of yourself by worrying now.

if you need advice, just drop in here - we're all more than willing to give as much advice as you need as long as you're willing to keep a chin up and give things a go

Change... has never sat well with me. Particularly sudden changes. That is in part and parcel why I gaze into the future and try to figure out the eddies and rocks ahead. I fear change, especially change into unknown.

Once I was afraid of asking a girl out and being rejected.

I think what I now fear more is that a girl might say yes.

That's probably the essence of it. Of course, there are complications upon complications... If you wish to know more about this particular girl, you'll need to hunt down my last few posts in this thread. There are other considerations too, but while I think they are hindrances and mental blocks, they are really just excuses and I'll deal with them in due time. Eventually.

[Destro_Yersul]

On the plains of hesitation lie bleached the bones of those who, with the dawn of victory in sight, sat down and waited, and in waiting, died.

Carpe diem, man.

[Fax Celestis]

Change... has never sat well with me. Particularly sudden changes. That is in part and parcel why I gaze into the future and try to figure out the eddies and rocks ahead. I fear change, especially change into unknown.

Once I was afraid of asking a girl out and being rejected.

I think what I now fear more is that a girl might say yes.

That's probably the essence of it. Of course, there are complications upon complications... If you wish to know more about this particular girl, you'll need to hunt down my last few posts in this thread. There are other considerations too, but while I think they are hindrances and mental blocks, they are really just excuses and I'll deal with them in due time. Eventually.

Do you know what the easiest way to become confident is?

Pretend you are, even when you're not.

Something takes between ~30 days (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/786165.html) to become a habit, and 6 months to a year to become part of your personality. All you have to do is pretend for long enough that it becomes habit, and then eventually it will become part of you.

So, even if you're unsure, do what you would do if you were completely self-confident, an oracle, or Chuck Norris. Eventually, you will teach yourself to trust in yourself more and become self-confident, thereby enriching your life and lifestyle.

[Adumbration]

On the plains of hesitation lie bleached the bones of those who, with the dawn of victory in sight, sat down and waited, and in waiting, died.

Carpe diem, man.
It is easy to say, "Act!" but harder by far to find the right action. If there was an obvious action, an easy answer, I likely would have done it in a heartbeat.


Do you know what the easiest way to become confident is?

Pretend you are, even when you're not.

Something takes between ~30 days (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/786165.html) to become a habit, and 6 months to a year to become part of your personality. All you have to do is pretend for long enough that it becomes habit, and then eventually it will become part of you.

So, even if you're unsure, do what you would do if you were completely self-confident, an oracle, or Chuck Norris. Eventually, you will teach yourself to trust in yourself more and become self-confident, thereby enriching your life and lifestyle.

It's hard to explain, but confidence isn't really the issue here. I am confident enough, usually. Sometimes, to my chagrin, arrogant even. It really depends on the company I'm with.

The issue really is that I don't know what is right. Do I really even want a girlfriend? I'm not saying this to antagonize you. I'm just saying that to get a girlfriend just to have a girlfriend, feels wrong. Call me a foolish romantic, but I'd like it to mean something, however briefly.

I know, I know, I'm bad at explaining this. It's hardly clear in my head, either.

[Fax Celestis]

Perhaps you are like me in that you do not feel complete without companionship?

[Adumbration]

Perhaps you are like me in that you do not feel complete without companionship?

Could be. Don't know. Never had one, so can't really say.

I have trust issues, I can admit to that. To have someone I could trust would be a relief. That was the thing about her, though. I've known her this autumn and all the way, irrationally, I've felt that I can trust her. To be fair, she has not broken that trust either. She was very honest with me.

Could be that next time I see her, she's made up with her ex-boyfriend and that'll be a wall between us. But hey, that's life. I don't regret kissing her. I only wish that the circumstances had been different. Self-pity would only be pointless and destructive. I've done enough of that in my past to know it, though Stephen Fry put it to words quite nicely once. I digress.

[Destro_Yersul]

It is easy to say, "Act!" but harder by far to find the right action. If there was an obvious action, an easy answer, I likely would have done it in a heartbeat.

Don't I know it. :smallsigh:

The point is, nothing's easy. And if you don't act now, if you're always saying "I can figure it out later," you'll miss all your chances. It may be hard, and I know I'm not much for change either, but sometimes you've got to make the extra effort to figure it out now.

[Caewil]

I've told three girls I had low chances with that I like them. In every case it was fairly awkward. If you really like someone it will always feel awkward admitting it, especially when you don't know how they feel. So why not try and see what happens?

[Eadin]

So, another follow-up. We were talking about , well, us.
And I told him that I didn't feel like having just a bunch of flings or make out sessions.
He said that "I don't know for sure, it's been a while since I had a relationschip. Maybe I should risk it though :smallsmile:"
AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
JUSTSAYYESORNOGODDAMNIT:smallfurious: *frustration*

[Serpentine]

Uh... I think that was a yes :smallconfused: You could always do what I did, though: *snog snog sloppy smooches snog* "So... does this mean you're mine now?" "What sort of a person do you think I am?! Of course!"

[unosarta]

Well, he said specifically, PROBABLY when he was on something, "I'm gonna kiss you one day"

..
UH
CREEPY, MUCH?:confused:

For'Ninniach, I don't think you are showing exactly the level of creepiness of his texts. He texted you roughly the same thing four times. Within 10-20 minute intervals. Late at night. :smalleek:

[Moonshadow]

Bleah. This is why I didn't want to clean up, as it lead to me finding old love letters and things from my ex. It hurts finding stuff from the woman who kicked your heart in the ass =/


Is it worth hanging onto that kinda thing, in the hopes that one day you can look at it and remember that person fondly, or is it better just to get rid of it sooner rather than later?

[Serpentine]

I dunno what's the best way to do it. I'm a hoarder, so I'm always inclined towards keeping. After my Big Breakup, I copied all of my lovey text messages into a word document and deleted them form my phone as I did. Then I printed off the document and, I think, deleted it from my computer. I kept the list for a while, and looked over it every now and then. Eventually - I think when I was moving house - I just threw it out. Recycled it, in fact.
Soo... I dunno. You're really the only one who can say.

edit: My mistake, I still have it on my computer. Don't feel anything to look at it, now, interestingly...

[xPANCAKEx]

Eadin

well you can either force him to give you a straight answer by confronting him, which may yeild some hostility (no one likes being backed into a corner), or if hes not willing to give you some clarification after a week or two, then maybe you should tone back your contact with him. Carrying on fooling around with him when hes not giving you what you want (a bit of clarity in the situation) isnt going to prompt him to change his behavior.

you can of course play to his flirting to try and yield a straight answer?



Naoto Shirogane

id hold onto them. Put them away in a box where you wont stumble across them at random, but if you ever wish to be reminded you can be

of course if it proves too painful a reminder to know what they are and where they are, then bin them. Help get over things.

[Adumbration]

I think I'll text her tonight at about midnight, just to say "Happy new year!" Not much, I know, but baby steps I guess.

[Ytaker]

What I found especially fun was when my girlfriend hacked into my msn account and read my complete and unread for years compilation of msn and irc conversations with my first girlfriend. She had during our relationship felt continually envious of this girl and worried I hadn't gotten over her, so you can imagine what it was like.

[MRizzle08]

I have read this thread for a while but this is my first post, I just didn't know where else to go. Sorry it is going to be quite the wall of text.
So a little background first, at the beginning of this past semester I decided that my group of friends was not working out so I decided that I would try to make new friends which as I am fairly shy was very scary for me. Well the long story short this worked out wonderfully for me and I actually ended up being legitimately happy for the first time since coming to college.

Well during this process part of this process I began to get close to a girl, lets call her M. M and I over the course of time began to get fairly close and eventually we started frequently going out of our way to spend time with each other and inviting each other over to watch movies and things like that. Well this was pretty wonderful and she and I actually ended up going on an official date or two and discussed where we saw our relationship. During this conversation she admits that she has been conflicted about whether she actually likes me or not because apparently the last person she dated she realized she didn't actually like him a few weeks in and that didn't end well. Fortunately she said that she had decided that she actually does like me and that she just wants to take it slow because that is what she is comfortable with.

Well this continues on to the end of the semester with us generally spending more and more time together but still not officially dating. Well on one of the last days of break she mentions to be that she really would like to spend time with me over break just watching movies and such which I think sounds wonderful and I reply with such. Well the second day of break I get a message from her asking if I would be okay if we didn’t end up dating. I am completely shocked by this and have trouble full processing this and so I say that yeah I would be disappointed but I could move on. Well we continue to talk in friendly terms for the next few days but at the same time I realize that she never really gave a reason for her not wanting to date me so that questions begins to fester in the back of my head.

Well this comes to fruition a few days later when I just break down and flat out asked her why she doesn’t want to date me. Well she breaks down emotionally and after her saying sorry over and over again she admits that she decided that she didn’t want to date me because she wasn’t sure she would want to date me in the very long run and she didn’t want to feel like she was leading me on if she eventually reached that conclusion. She then goes on to say that she feels like that recently her life has been falling apart and that she can’t handle this right now and she makes me promise to not bring this up again.

Well I decide I can handle this and try to move on. She and I continue to talk to each other threw facebook on a friend basis and we continued to remain close friends. Well this was great until this last week when we each spent the week with about ten other people at a convention for an organization we are both part of. Well throughout this whole week we more or less spent every time we could together and we would always sit next to each other and stuff like that. Also throughout the week I just felt we were both doing a fair amount of what I would consider flirting. During this same time I found myself feeling even more than I did previously that she is absolutely perfect for me and she is everything that I would want in a significant other.

Well that week has come to an end and I just don’t know what to do. I really feel like I should tell her how I feel while at the same time I made a promise to her and I don’t want to break that promise if it is just going to result in her breaking into tears again and possibly ruining the friendship she and I already have. If you have made it this far thank you for working through it.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[xPANCAKEx]

Ytaker

invasion of privacy = immediate grounds for break up. No quibbling. She may have been insecure about something, but she had absolutely zero right to do what she did.

MRizzle08

firstly - never call someone who doesnt want to be with you "perfect". Its not just a simple issue of wording, but also about keeping things in perspective for yourself and not placing too high a praise on someone

also - she made you promise not to ask questions about something that you needed clarity on for your own well being. Yes it may be a painful subject for her, but it smacks of selfishness

sounds like you've got a great friendship with her, but unless shes going to stick her neck out and say "i want to give things another shot" on her own and making the moves, then things will never change. Back of the flirting for your own well being

[MountainKing]

I have read this thread for a while but this is my first post, I just didn't know where else to go. Sorry it is going to be quite the wall of text.
So a little background first, at the beginning of this past semester I decided that my group of friends was not working out so I decided that I would try to make new friends which as I am fairly shy was very scary for me. Well the long story short this worked out wonderfully for me and I actually ended up being legitimately happy for the first time since coming to college.

Well during this process part of this process I began to get close to a girl, lets call her M. M and I over the course of time began to get fairly close and eventually we started frequently going out of our way to spend time with each other and inviting each other over to watch movies and things like that. Well this was pretty wonderful and she and I actually ended up going on an official date or two and discussed where we saw our relationship. During this conversation she admits that she has been conflicted about whether she actually likes me or not because apparently the last person she dated she realized she didn't actually like him a few weeks in and that didn't end well. Fortunately she said that she had decided that she actually does like me and that she just wants to take it slow because that is what she is comfortable with.

Well this continues on to the end of the semester with us generally spending more and more time together but still not officially dating. Well on one of the last days of break she mentions to be that she really would like to spend time with me over break just watching movies and such which I think sounds wonderful and I reply with such. Well the second day of break I get a message from her asking if I would be okay if we didn’t end up dating. I am completely shocked by this and have trouble full processing this and so I say that yeah I would be disappointed but I could move on. Well we continue to talk in friendly terms for the next few days but at the same time I realize that she never really gave a reason for her not wanting to date me so that questions begins to fester in the back of my head.

Well this comes to fruition a few days later when I just break down and flat out asked her why she doesn’t want to date me. Well she breaks down emotionally and after her saying sorry over and over again she admits that she decided that she didn’t want to date me because she wasn’t sure she would want to date me in the very long run and she didn’t want to feel like she was leading me on if she eventually reached that conclusion. She then goes on to say that she feels like that recently her life has been falling apart and that she can’t handle this right now and she makes me promise to not bring this up again.

Well I decide I can handle this and try to move on. She and I continue to talk to each other threw facebook on a friend basis and we continued to remain close friends. Well this was great until this last week when we each spent the week with about ten other people at a convention for an organization we are both part of. Well throughout this whole week we more or less spent every time we could together and we would always sit next to each other and stuff like that. Also throughout the week I just felt we were both doing a fair amount of what I would consider flirting. During this same time I found myself feeling even more than I did previously that she is absolutely perfect for me and she is everything that I would want in a significant other.

Well that week has come to an end and I just don’t know what to do. I really feel like I should tell her how I feel while at the same time I made a promise to her and I don’t want to break that promise if it is just going to result in her breaking into tears again and possibly ruining the friendship she and I already have. If you have made it this far thank you for working through it.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

To give an alternate opinion to Pancake's, I myself don't see a problem with what's at hand here. Alright, so she's uncertain. How intimate* is your knowledge of each other? Have you ever done anything to show physical affection**?

* - Remember, intimate does not always mean just sex.
** - This is actually about both you and M; it takes two to tango.

[Malfunctioned]

So I think that me taking a short break from relationship stuff to get my head sorted kinda gave B the wrong idea and she has most probably lost interest. I haven't actually asked though that's mainly because I don't really want to know the answer if I am right.

I do however now understand why I've subconsciously sabotaging my relationships though. It's pretty much that I don't want to hurt any of these girls like I did with T and so as soon as I start to get close to being with a girl I make myself pretty much abandon whatever it is I do have so I don't get a chance to hurt them. I just need to focus on stopping myself doing that if another chance of a relationship presents itself.

So I may of lost a chance with someone who was pretty much my ideal girl but at least I might be able to actually enter a relationship. I hope.